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[P]
K5, Inc. and California Dreamin'

By rusty in News
Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 04:37:03 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

This story has some good news, then some bad news (which could also be seen as good news), then some more good news, so you all leave happy.

To summarize, Kuro5hin.org is now owned and operated by Kuro5hin.org, Inc., a Delaware company. You may now refer to me as "Chairman rusty". Secondly, you knew it had to happen someday, so yes, we will be advertising in the near future. I don't have the time or the manpower to run an ad server and sell ads myself, so initially we'll be going with one of those big annoying commercial agencies (any recommendations are welcome, by the way). This is bad because advertising sucks, but it's good because it will give us some operating capital to get better hosting and bandwidth. And finally, I have taken a new job with San Mateo, CA based OpenSales, as a "senior software community developer", and I'm moving to California.

More info on all of this is below...


Kuro5hin.org, Inc.

Yes, we are incorporated. I am the Chairman, President, and CEO, and Mark Meszaros of Intes.net is the Secretary. The Intes team will be acting as our "back office", handling legal and administrative duties, while I will continue to set policy and manage site operations and development. Mainly this is a matter of legal protection; if we run a story, and someone gets upset and sues us, they can't take my car. It also makes it easier to set company income apart and use it only for developing the site. Not that we have any income yet, which brings us to...

Advertising

Yeah, I don't like it much either, but there comes a time in the course of human events when it becomes necessary to improve bandwidth. And that takes money, and on the web, money comes from advertising. In the future, we aim to handle our own advertising, and provide you with lots of cool options as to what kind of ads you see, and where on the page they are placed, and what kind of items you'd like to see ads for. However, we just don't have the manpower to do all that yet. So for now, we'll be starting to run your normal banner ads up on the top of the page. If you hate this kind of thing more than life itself, I encourage you to install and run Junkbuster or a similar ad-blocking proxy. In fact, if anyone would like to write up a tutorial on ad-blocking options for various platforms, I'd be glad to see it. Also, I know many of you are webmasters too, so if anyone has a favorite ad provider, or a horror story on who to avoid, please share! Don't worry, we won't be going with DoubleClick. :-)

OpenSales

In the midst of all this turmoil, I have also taken a new job with OpenSales, who you may be familiar with from their plethora of press releases on LinuxToday. They make an open source e-business application called AllCommerce, which aims ultimately to integrate all of the different facets of a company's sales and operations into one coherent system. Basically, it's a cool company, with a cool product, and best of all it's all completely open source, under the GPL. So for all those who would claim "Open source is cool, but you can't make a living with it" (also known as the "programmers will starve" argument), it's just not true. If you want to, you can find a job hacking Free software.

With the job change, I'll be moving to California, specifically San Francisco. The first two weeks of July, Bret and I will be driving across the US, so any recommendations of where to go and what to see are more than welcome. And if anyone wants to roll out the red carpet in SF and show us the sights, we'd be grateful.

So, if I have seemed less then altogether with it lately, now you know why. :-)

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Display: Sort:
K5, Inc. and California Dreamin' | 84 comments (84 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
intresting times for K5...but is th... (1.00 / 1) (#7)
by SgtPepper on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 03:29:36 PM EST

SgtPepper voted 1 on this story.

intresting times for K5...but is this moving a bit fast maybe?

Re: intresting times for K5...but is th... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:08:47 PM EST

It depends on your definition of "fast", I guess. The site itself is moving a bit fast, I'm just trying to keep up. :-) For example, it took 6 days in June to surpass the total traffic of February. And the comparison is even unfair, because Feb. stats include images, and the June stats only cover pages. So, that's more than 500% growth in traffic-per-month in 4 months. By incorporating, I'm trying to ensure that we can continue to keep up with the demand, and start to scale up for increased traffic (rather than, say, wait till it becomes a real problem, like some other sites I could name. :-)).

Is it scary? Yes. I don't know where any of this is going, but I'll try to keep things on track.

Have I mentioned how much I love you all, lately, by the way? :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: intresting times for K5...but is th... (none / 0) (#33)
by SgtPepper on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 10:04:31 PM EST

I love you too man, but you're STILL not getting my bud light ;)

[ Parent ]
Re: intresting times for K5...but is th... (none / 0) (#38)
by feline on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 11:21:15 PM EST

didn't we have this same conversation in #kuro5hin

And no, you haven't. :P
------------------------------------------

'Hello sir, you don't look like someone who satisfies his wife.'
[ Parent ]

Mo5in on up, as it were... good luc... (none / 0) (#3)
by Pelorat on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 03:30:42 PM EST

Pelorat voted 1 on this story.

Mo5in on up, as it were... good luck!

I'll be waiting for me k5 options..... (none / 0) (#9)
by feline on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 03:42:43 PM EST

feline voted 1 on this story.

I'll be waiting for me k5 options...
------------------------------------------

'Hello sir, you don't look like someone who satisfies his wife.'

Incorporating was a very wise legal... (3.00 / 2) (#5)
by Deven on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 03:55:12 PM EST

Deven voted 1 on this story.

Incorporating was a very wise legal decision; sooner or later someone's likely to be breathing down your neck (e.g. Microsoft vs. Slashdot about Kerberos specs) and you don't want to be held personally liable...

Deven

"Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay

Wait for it... ... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
by PresJPolk on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 04:07:28 PM EST

PresJPolk voted 1 on this story.

Wait for it...

If the day comes, when the Corporate Kuro5hin starts bypassing the submission queue, or rigging the voting system, to guarantee posting of certain choice articles,.... then the party's over.



Re: Wait for it...... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:03:58 PM EST

You're damn right. If that day comes, I'll quit.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re: Wait for it...... (3.00 / 2) (#31)
by PresJPolk on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 08:47:03 PM EST

Somehow, I get the feeling that you'd have to quit, for nonsense like that to start happening. As long as the Chairman is the majority owner, kuroshin.org will stay true to the ideals of the revolution.

/me holds up a little blue book (blueprints to the Tacoma Narrows bridge)

[ Parent ]
Ask not what your website can do for you... (3.00 / 2) (#39)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 11:21:52 PM EST

Ha! Yes. I can see the speech now:

"Ladies and gentlemen, I founded Kuro5hin.org with the knowlege of how all who went before me had failed in one way of another. A memento mori, as it were, enshrined in our very logo. [holds up "Chairman Rusty's little blue book"] The Tacoma Narrows Bridge...." :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: Ask not what your website can do for you... (5.00 / 1) (#47)
by jetpack on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:37:46 AM EST

So, when do we get to buy those little blue books? That would be cool :)


--
/* The beatings will continue until morale improves */
[ Parent ]

Re: Ask not what your website can do for you... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
by Marcin on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:42:37 AM EST

Ladies and gentlemen, I founded Kuro5hin.org with the knowlege of how all who went before me had failed in one way of another. A memento mori, as it were, enshrined in our very logo. [holds up "Chairman Rusty's little blue book"] The Tacoma Narrows Bridge...." :-)

Dear God! You're drunk with power! Next thing we know you'll be taking /. from those Geek Compound Geeks by force!

Heh.

Ads don't really bother me, usually the page has loaded before the ad does and they never catch my attention anyway.. i'm immune, yes!

Unless you go insane like some of those sites around and place ads after each paragraph.
s/<p>/<p><ad code>/; :)

Congrats on the new job too :)
M.
[ Parent ]

I-P-O!! I-P-O!! I-P-O!!... (none / 0) (#6)
by HiRes on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 04:12:32 PM EST

HiRes voted 1 on this story.

I-P-O!! I-P-O!! I-P-O!!
--
wcb
wait! before you rate, read.

Re: I-P-O!! I-P-O!! I-P-O!!... (none / 0) (#11)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 04:45:58 PM EST

I keep thinking of that TV ad... what is it, "hotjobs.com", where the fat kid is dancing around going "IPO... IPO...". Ha! :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re: I-P-O!! I-P-O!! I-P-O!!... (none / 0) (#12)
by feline on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 05:04:40 PM EST

I'd like to itterate my previous statement: I'll be waiting for my k5 options
------------------------------------------

'Hello sir, you don't look like someone who satisfies his wife.'
[ Parent ]

Who the hell wouldn't post this? Q... (none / 0) (#10)
by freakazoid on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 04:13:50 PM EST

freakazoid voted 1 on this story.

Who the hell wouldn't post this? Quite relevant.

On your way out to San Francisco, y... (4.00 / 1) (#1)
by rob on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 04:21:14 PM EST

rob voted 1 on this story.

On your way out to San Francisco, you better stop by in Chicago. Its right in your path and I'll take you guys sailing on the lake, and then its a straight shot on rte 80, to San Fran, via Wyoming, Salt Lake City, Reno, and Sacramento. Lots of nice scenery (mountains, salt flats, desert, etc.)

Near Chicago (none / 0) (#70)
by error 404 on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 03:36:11 PM EST

Well, if yer that close by us anyway, Milwaukee has its charms too, aina hey.

(Translations "aina hey" is Milwaukean for "eh".)
..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

[ Parent ]
Wow, announcing advertising and enc... (4.00 / 1) (#4)
by Imperator on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 04:27:32 PM EST

Imperator voted 1 on this story.

Wow, announcing advertising and encouraging people to avoid it at the same time. Never thought I'd see the day.

!!!!!!!... (1.40 / 5) (#2)
by ramses0 on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 04:32:51 PM EST

ramses0 voted 1 on this story.

!!!!!!!
[ rate all comments , for great justice | sell.com ]

Congrats and about running ads (4.00 / 1) (#13)
by Anonymous Zero on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 05:23:44 PM EST

I've worked behind the scenes on various web sites. You can easily write software or use someone else's ad software (some are GPL'd) on K5 but selling ads and managing ads is a full time job. Even if you hold out on not using DoubleClick then whoever your ad agency happens to be may send you DoubleClick ads anyway. If you refuse to run "enhanced" ads then most agencies will say "Fine. We won't send you any ads if can't run them. No soup for you!" So I'm not going to be a luddite and piss and moan if you decide to run DoubleClick ads here on K5 because I know the reality is bandwidth is not free and making money on ads is not easy.

Re: Congrats and about running ads (none / 0) (#16)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:01:23 PM EST

This is true. Basically, developing the code and maintaining the site is not a full time job. Selling ads would be, and not one I'd want. I don't think we'll go with doubleclick, and dammit I'm going to do my best to not accept Java ads and that crap, but yeah, it's an uphill battle with most of the ad providers.

It appears that Burst Media allows a lot of flexibility and control by site owners of what kind of ads they get. I'm considering going with them. Like I said, I'd really like to hear others' experinces with these companies.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: Congrats and about running ads (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous Hero on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:31:22 PM EST

It looks like you can't have Burst ads. From the FAQ:

BURST! ads can not appear on any web pages for which you are not directly responsible for the content. This includes but is not limited to:
...
b.Free BBS, Email, or Chat services which you provide for your viewers.

[ Parent ]

Re: Congrats and about running ads (none / 0) (#25)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:48:20 PM EST

I saw that too, and emailed them to ask what that meant. They said K5 looked fine to them. So, um, I guess we're not a BBS. Whatever. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re: Congrats and about running ads (none / 0) (#42)
by Anonymous Hero on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 11:26:31 PM EST

Just whatever you do, don't put up that god-awful java ad that's circulating around fm.

[ Parent ]
Chairman Rusty's little red.... (none / 0) (#14)
by Rand Race on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 05:23:54 PM EST

Congratulations Rusty, good news indeed.... even the advertising since it means more bandwidth. Good luck in Cali as well.
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
Kuro5hin.com??? (none / 0) (#15)
by Greener on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 05:44:30 PM EST

Technically shouldn't this be under a Kuro5hin.com topic?

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Money still makes the world go around.

Re: Kuro5hin.com??? (5.00 / 2) (#17)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:03:25 PM EST

Heh. We do own kuro5hin.com (and .net for that matter), but they aren't even hooked up to DNS yet. Maybe I ought to do that.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, it'll always be a dot org, cause you people (hereafter known as "THE ORGANIZATION") are the heart and soul of the site. Money might make the world go round, but communities are what makes the net go round, I think.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: Kuro5hin.com??? (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous Hero on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:29:35 PM EST

I thought it was inertia :-P

[ Parent ]
Kudos (none / 0) (#20)
by Nio Spartan on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:14:24 PM EST

Kudos, Rusty! Getting incorporated to keep the site going sounds like a great idea. Your other "promotion" sounds good as well...but don't you think you're a little unreasonable with the "avdertising sucks" mantra?

After all, Goodyear and Fuji have blimps.

And blimps are a really cool way of getting a message across.

Especially if it's got a 50 foot image of the Tacoma Narrows in all its glory =)

What does courage mean? You can't program it. -Hugo Pratt
Sponsorship? (4.00 / 1) (#23)
by new500 on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:36:29 PM EST

Hey Rusty! couldn't Junkbuster sponsor the new K5.com by placing *no* ads?

I mean we'd all recognise them and give good word of mouth just like the banner mongers want but don't get - wouldn't we?

:^)


== Idle Random Thoughts. Usual disclaimers apply. ==
Re: Sponsorship? (4.00 / 1) (#28)
by mahlen on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 07:46:40 PM EST

You mean like a banner at the top of the screen that says, "This ad-free page brought to you by JunkBusters!"? But, uh,...well, it would either be a brilliant piece of art or just make my brain hurt thinking about it. This is one of those logic puzzles where the natives always tell the truth and the whites-burned-brown always lie, right?

mahlen

Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, which smell bad.
--Spock [Leonard Nimoy], "Star Trek: I, Mudd"

[ Parent ]
Re: Sponsorship? (none / 0) (#75)
by new500 on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 09:18:12 PM EST

yeah look i sell ads for a living - i'd be prepared to give the idea a go. no seriously. think about it again. a serious site sponsored by someone who didn't take an ad. if word got out 1. awesome recognition 2. other advertisers and especially the banner providers would get scared 3. either the "no ad" sponsorship concept or traditional banners would get priced at a premium. what counts for sponsors is what recognition they get. they insist on delivery mechanisms like double click because its a way to measure something of what they are getting - but if you pitch for intangibles and the benefits are strong enough all you need is a means to price this.
== Idle Random Thoughts. Usual disclaimers apply. ==
[ Parent ]
Welcome to California... (4.00 / 1) (#24)
by analog on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:38:17 PM EST

... now go home!

Hey, just out of curiosity, what type of incorporation did you do? I'm not sure how open you want to keep your options, but it seems that it might not be unreasonable to be a non-profit. It wouldn't stop you from selling ads, and it wouldn't stop you from getting paid for your time (if you so desired), but it would probably stop VA/Andover/Whathaveyou from scoop(heh heh)ing you up (definitely two sides to that coin). Just a thought.

And more seriously, congrats on the job. ;)

Re: Welcome to California... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 06:51:41 PM EST

We're actually a C corp. I have larger plans for K5 Inc than just running this website, ultimately, so it made sense to be where we'll need to be eventually anyway. For the record, I'm the (large) majority stockholder, so no one can buy us unless I sell to them, which I have no intention of doing. Being a non-profit has it's own disadvantages, which I didn't really want to work around. And for at least the forseeable future, no one's going to be drawing a salary from Kuro5hin.org Inc., so that's not such a concern.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re: Welcome to California... (none / 0) (#27)
by analog on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 07:45:35 PM EST

Hmmm, larger plans, the thot plickens....

I guess I can 'fess up and say that I was thinking in terms of perception; if K5 were non-profit, it would be a lot less likely for people to think they were being taken advantage of (although so far people here seem to be remarkably pragmatic about it; proof positive that I'm once again underestimating the K5 audience). As far as the disadvantages, I tend to figure that being incorporated is a PITA, the rest is just details. ;)

Well, I gotta go reinstall WinNT for the little missus... *sigh*

[ Parent ]

Re: Welcome to California... (none / 0) (#57)
by CodeWright on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 09:18:58 AM EST

Actually, Rusty, getting gobbled up by the Andover/VA folks wouldn't be such a bad thing.

I know the slashdot guys, and Andover did well by them (and continues to do well by them: witness the support that /. has received in their legal battle with M$)

If you can demonstrate sufficient traffic, I bet that Andover/VA would take a long look at k5. :)

Reason being: Andover is trying to position itself strategically to be THE "geek gateway" to the internet. Never mind the fact that "geeks" always go their 0wN way, for investor purposes, it permits Andover/VA to demonstrate a very specific "niche" market where they have, by far, the majority of the market share.



--
A: Because it destroys the flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting dumb? --clover_kicker

[ Parent ]
ROFL (none / 0) (#64)
by rusty on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:51:41 PM EST

"Kuro5hin.org, a member of the Andover network"

Forgive my giggles. :-) I know /. has done well from their purchase by Andover. That's not really the route I want to go, though. And, in this community, "street cred" does count for something. I just don't think I could show my face in public anymore if I sold K5 to Andover. Amusing thought, but not gonna happen.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Seek alternatives to Advertising (3.00 / 2) (#29)
by nodes on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 08:27:52 PM EST

The idea that we can fund Internet activities with advertising is a bad one. Advertising slows us down, consumes bandwidth, and misleads those poor souls who actually click on it. I won't click on an ad *NO MATTER* how relevant it is because I've wasted too much time in the past following deceptive ads. Let's face it, advertising doesn't work. We have on the Internet the means to make a much better system for finding out what to buy ... ratings. As long as we are focused on advertising, we aren't doing the RATINGS of products and services. That's why my site is "Advertising-Free" and I intend to keep it that way. Why do people think we need advertising to sustain our web sites? We had a viable web long before advertising. We paid out $20/month and put up our web site. Simple. But when a site begins to generate a lot of traffic, then SOMEONE has to pay for it. Why not the people who use it? I suggest a service where you belong to a site like Kuro5hin and get the right to post. It doesn't need to cost much in order to pay for itself, and you could receive a CD-ROM once a month with all the articles and replies on it in return for your membership. I know, I know ... it's the "something for nothing" thing all over again. But it doesn't work and one day we will wake up and realize that all our favorite sites have "gone under" because they can't get enough advertising to sustain themselves and they didn't learn how to build community through memberships. Imagine if everyone who liked this site sent Rusty $1 ... how many dollars would that give him? Steve Moyer

Re: Seek alternatives to Advertising (5.00 / 1) (#37)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 11:10:06 PM EST

Imagine if everyone who liked this site sent Rusty $1 ... how many dollars would that give him?

$2,300.00 approximately. I personally would rather have ads, and not pay for content, than have to pay for everything I see. The "network tv" model, as opposed to the "cable tv" model, where you pay for the channel, and then get ads anyway. Regardless of what would be ideal, the simple fact is, people *will* go to sites that have ads, people *will not* go to sites that require you to pay for content that is not stock tips or porn. Unless you're the Wall Street Journal. Everyone else who has charged subscription fees has failed miserably.

As for "$20 a month" hosting, that is no longer feasable. To run this site, I need an Apache I can control with mod_perl and a whole bunch of perl modules, I need an alpha version of MySQL, and I need a *minimum* of 20 Gigs of bandwidth a month (more if you count images!). That is no longer available with a small-time cheap provider. I have two choices, basically: I can keep it on the Intes SDSL line, with increasing slowness and outages, or I can farm out hosting to a company who does this professionally, and can provide a bigger pipe. I'd rather provide better service than remain committed to an ideal that I'm not too sure I even share.

Now, on the other hand, if you can donate the above-mentioned needs, on a platform that will outperform a dual PPro 180 with 256M RAM, I would welcome the donation, and would certainly not advertise until our traffic grew beyond the means of even your servers. However, economic reality always sets in at some point.

I think the real problem is that today, advertising on the web is still dumber than a bag of hammers. I have some ideas for how advertising here *should* be done, and hopefully I'll get to implement them some day soon. Until then, if you hate ads so much, run junkbuster. :-) I'll thank you for it.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

That's sooo dope! (none / 0) (#30)
by kmself on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 08:44:50 PM EST

Hey Rusty -- we're going to hold off on the champaign until the signed letters show, but we're way stoked to have you coming on board.

...so, when do you write up your report of what you did on your California vacation ;-)

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.

Re: That's sooo dope! (none / 0) (#36)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 10:59:22 PM EST

we're going to hold off on the champaign until the signed letters show

You don't have them yet?? We overnighted them yesterday. You should have gotten them today.

...so, when do you write up your report of what you did on your California vacation ;-)

Never. To protect the guilty, the truth of that will never be known. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Ads (none / 0) (#32)
by Anonymous Hero on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 09:27:55 PM EST

NOT DOUBLECLICK.

I second that emotion (nt) (none / 0) (#41)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 11:25:12 PM EST

.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
It was inevitable, wasn't it (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous Hero on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 10:15:33 PM EST

Okay, who here is actually *surprised* that this happened? I reckon Rusty was game for it all along, not that this matters. As long as the cat gets featured from time to time, it's okay. Or, you know, whatever [Lisa Simpson]

Anyway, I think it's okay if Rusty's in charge, he strikes me as a decent guy with a fair bit of intelligence. Kuro5hin seems to attract a better 'class' (scuse that expression) of reader than Slashdot ... it's way more arty and independent, and there are many less Linux bigots here! Also, the articles don't all pertain to everyday patents/privacy violations in America, which is nice. The arty thing is borne out by the fact that the posters were not INTJ (geeks) as expected, more INFP/INFJs etc. And whoever recommended the emode.com site, well done to them, it's great fun!

Rusty, why don't you sell the Scoop source? That's allowed under the GPL, and it's a much better quality than Slashdot's slash code, and you've spent time (i.e. money) developing this site....

p.s. do the first 100 k5 members get shares? ;-)

Re: It was inevitable, wasn't it (none / 0) (#48)
by rusty on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:39:37 AM EST

Hey thanks. I'm glad we're arty. :-)

I suppose I could sell Scoop. But it's more fun to just support folks who are hacking on it themselves. As described in "The mythical man-month", taking a project and making it a product is not easy. It takes, usually, more time than the original development took. Right now Scoop is a project, and I don't have the stored resources to make it into a product. Maybe someday.

If anyone wants to buy it, though, I will sell it to you. Please email. :-)

Right now, shares of K5 Inc are not available to the public. I own 60%, and Intes holdings owns 40%. Actually, the large majority of the first 100 members aren't here anymore. I think rob, Paul Dunne, and a couple others is it. Heh, so yeah, maybe someday. ;-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: It was inevitable, wasn't it (none / 0) (#58)
by bmetzler on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 10:40:03 AM EST

Actually, the large majority of the first 100 members aren't here anymore. I think rob, Paul Dunne, and a couple others is it. Heh, so yeah, maybe someday. ;-)

I'm still here. I want my shares :)

-Brent
www.bmetzler.org - it's not just a personal weblog, it's so much more.
[ Parent ]
Re: It was inevitable, wasn't it (none / 0) (#61)
by hattig on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 11:09:49 AM EST

Me too. #72.

I think that 10% of the overall shares should go to the first 100 members, 0.1% each. And a nice car, and all the other perks.

What is funny is that my wife and I found this site on the same day, independently, without corresponding with each other. I am number 72. She is number 73.

A little bit of work and we will soon have majority control of Kuro5hin, hahahaha! <evil grin>



[ Parent ]

Too bad I filter all that stuff out (3.00 / 1) (#35)
by abe1x on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 10:42:51 PM EST

Well I for one filter out all ads served by all the ad companies (using iCab on the mac - hands down the best browser out there). Sorry Rusty, I'll right a check in the right circumstances though....

Re: Too bad I filter all that stuff out (none / 0) (#40)
by rusty on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 11:23:41 PM EST

No, really. I'm fine with you filtering. Frankly, I'd rather the people who care just filter, instead of hearing everyone complain about the ads. Just don't filter cookies from www.kuro5hin.org, is all I ask. Well, ok, feel free, but your user stuff won't work. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Re: Too bad I filter all that stuff out (none / 0) (#50)
by abe1x on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 01:02:16 AM EST

No worries rusty, the best feature of iCab is a little check box in the preferences that sets the browser up to accept only cookies from the main page you are visiting. That filters out nearly all the bad cookies and accepts all the good ones. Way to simple an idea for Netscape and Microsoft to figure out...

[ Parent ]
This is the worst solution... (none / 0) (#43)
by mihalis on Wed Jun 07, 2000 at 11:29:24 PM EST

apart from all the others.

Seriously, I'm sort of sorry it has to go like this, but I understand the argument and I agree with it.

Quite frankly retail/consumer DSL is not the place to build a community these days. I get a few hours up to several days outage every now and then - a far cry from the "always on" idea (it was actually more reliable to nail up a 56k connection to Mindspring before DSL arrived).

I'm much more dubious of the idea of moving to San Fran right now - have you seen the property prices?

Still, best of luck, take a camera, post a road trip travelog!

Chris Morgan
-- Chris Morgan <see em at mihalis dot net>

Re: This is the worst solution... (none / 0) (#46)
by rusty on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:30:26 AM EST

The DSL is actually commercial SDSL. 768K in both directions, and *slightly* more reliable than consumer ADSL. But not much. :-P

Property values... well, we'll rent. I think we'll manage OK.

I don't think I'll be able to post from the road, unless OS comes through with a laptop for me before we leave. Hint hint! If you'd like to encourage them to, email kmself. He's going to kill me for this. :-)

Anyway, if I can't post from the road, I definitely will be taking pictures, and do a travelogue when we get there.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: This is the worst solution... (none / 0) (#60)
by bse on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 10:44:16 AM EST

what happened to the last laptop? did it come to a sticky end or some-such? =o

---
"Please sir, tell me why, my life's so pitiful, but the future's so bright? When I look ahead, it burns my retinas." -- Pitchshifter - Please Sir
[ Parent ]

Sticky end? (none / 0) (#63)
by rusty on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:40:49 PM EST

It belongs to Intes, so I have to give it back. :-( Too bad, I was just starting to like it...

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Something doesn't make sense to me. (2.00 / 1) (#44)
by extrasolar on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:15:28 AM EST

Why would anyone want to run advertisements on your site after you just asked everyone to run junkbuster?

Re: Something doesn't make sense to me. (none / 0) (#45)
by rusty on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:26:04 AM EST

I sign up with [random ad-serving co], they give me code to paste into the header block, and their ads show up here. We're like 2 steps removed from the actual advertisers. And anyway, I just told people that instead of complaining, they should run junkbuster, not that everyone should. :-)

For the record: Don't run junkbuster. Junkbuster is evil, and anti-American. If I weren't so busy, I'd make sure not a single one of you is running junkbuster.

Feel better now? ;-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Cool (none / 0) (#51)
by FlinkDelDinky on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 01:14:53 AM EST

Congradulations Rusty. I think this is great news. It means K5 has solid growth and that it'll be able to support that growth at which point it'll just keep growing and growing, I mean it'll get really big, and even then, you know, it'll just keep growing, and as it grows, it'll like, you know, grow even faster, and then it'll be growing faster than the inflation of the universe, but like the universe began like 12 billion years ago so, you know, the universe will still be way bigger at that point, but since it'll be still growing faster than inflation it'll catch up, but the thing is, I don't know what'll happen when K5 grows up to the point of the physical limit of the inflating universe, but, you know, whatever, you know what I mean?

I've got no problem with the banners. However, before K5 starts advertising it's existance to the world I would like to see the ability for the author to pull a story out of the Q, it'd also be nice if you put a re-edit ability for authors to modify their Q'd stories.

Dude... decaf. ;-) (none / 0) (#53)
by rusty on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 05:10:58 AM EST

Seriously, though. I know there's still a lot of brokenness. We're working on it. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
going west (none / 0) (#52)
by sergent on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 04:34:07 AM EST

So, when are you coming to SF? It's gonna take some work to find housing if you want to live in the city.

OTOH the commute from SF to San Mateo would be better than most since you can just take 280... public transit would be very workable too.

I'm a suburbanite... but I can get on the train and be in the city in less than an hour. But I still live in a pretty boring place. I could like living in SF, but I would not like moving there... too hard to find someplace that I would want to live in.

The cross-country drive can be fun if you approach it the right way, I suspect (I've never done it -- flew out here). If you head south and drive to LA, you can get your fill of southern CA and then drive up along the coast, which is nice. Not sure what you hafta go through to get there, though. Everyone I have known who has done it has just taken I-80, which is pretty darn boring in parts.

Re: going west (none / 0) (#54)
by lachoy on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 07:51:47 AM EST

Rusty and public transit are like oil and water :)
M-x auto-bs-mode
[ Parent ]

Re: going west (none / 0) (#62)
by sergent on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:09:49 PM EST

Do explain...

[ Parent ]
Re: going west (none / 0) (#66)
by lachoy on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 01:22:08 PM EST

Rusty hates public transportation, simple as that. He recognizes (grudgingly) that transit time is more productive than driving time, but since he only had to drive < 20 minutes to the previous job -- and that he worked at home 80% of the time -- it was kind of a moot point. Big fat commutes might drive the point home a little better :)
M-x auto-bs-mode
[ Parent ]

Re: going west (none / 0) (#67)
by sergent on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 01:27:26 PM EST

You have to be somewhat silly to live in San Francisco and use a personal car as your primary mode of transportation. Not that being somewhat silly is necessarily a bad thing. But it can be frustrating.

[ Parent ]
Re: going west (none / 0) (#68)
by rusty on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 01:39:39 PM EST

Don't forget that I currently live in DC, which consistently ranks higher than SF in "worst traffic" lists. I hate sitting in traffic, but I also hate riding public transit, so I just arrange my commute so as not to be going the same way as the majority of traffic. For example, the whole time I've lived in DC, I've always been commuting from the city out to VA or MD to work, and back into the city at night. This saves me from ever seeing 95% of the traffic here, which is silly people who live in Northern VA and commute into the city to work.

The plan is to live in the southern parts of SF somewhere, and commute out to San Mateo for work. AFAICT, that will constitute a "reverse commute", and shouldn't be too bad, traffic-wise. Plus it avoids ever crossing a bridge.

And yes, I am somewhat silly. :-) But I think I'd even enjoy driving if I was stuck in traffic. We just got a new Miata, and *damn* is it fun to drive. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: going west (none / 0) (#80)
by Anonymous Hero on Fri Jun 09, 2000 at 02:05:47 PM EST

Your Miata will be lots of fun up in the Santa Cruz Mountains. Heck, you could even commute down Skyline Blvd (CA-35) if you wanted to...

The traffic here is different than in most places from what I can tell. It's so very dense and packed-in here (SF is 7mi x 7mi (actually 45 sqmi) and has 800,000 people in that area). There are lots of geographical obstructions with few crossings (several sets of mountains and this big huge body of water). I think the traffic here can get worse than in DC, having driven in both.

Heading south from San Francisco is not a reverse commute. Lots of people do it these days. Santa Clara County is an employment center. There are very few reverse commutes left.

I think the best way to cut it is coming in after 10AM (I'm posting this from home right now). I have a 16min commute after 10:30am or so; it is over an hour if I try to do it at 7am, and most of that is in a very small, unavoidable section. I was thinking you would be in downtown S.M. when I mentioned public transit (i.e. Caltrain). But it looks like you're kinda up in the hills. Samtrans busses suck, so you're probably right about that.

You will, however, want to use public transit to get elsewhere within SF proper. There just isn't anywhere to park. There are places with three month waiting lists for parking spots. So hopefully you will find someplace to live where you can find someplace to park nearby (sounds like you are talking about living in the Sunset so that should be easier, I guess).

If you can find someplace that is not far from Muni light rail or one of the BART stations in that part of SF, it will come in handy sometimes.

[ Parent ]

Re: going west (none / 0) (#81)
by rusty on Fri Jun 09, 2000 at 02:24:30 PM EST

Thanks for the advice. OpenSales is not near public transit right now, but it will be later this summer. And I'm glad to hear that traffic's not so bad after 10:00 or so. Like I ever get in to the office earlier than that! ;-)

I also didn't expect to drive anywhere in the city itself. You're right-- there's no point. It's just a pain in the ass. Personally, I like to walk, for in-town transit. And the girlfriend is fond of public transit, so we'll hopefully get something near (where "near" == "within 8 blocks or so") a train.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Drive... (none / 0) (#73)
by driph on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 06:34:43 PM EST

One of the odd/interesting things I noticed about San Francisco traffic (mostly from the viewpoint of someone walking at the time,) was this:

During the day, esp rush hour times, everyone is ruthless and drives like a maniac. However, once the evening rush is over, the cars suddenly become nice, pausing for pedestrians, letting other cars over, etc.

As opposed to here in Vegas, where everyone is ruthless and maniacal 24hrs a day on the street. Also, if you don't have a car in this town you are screwed. Big, flat and wide town.

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
[ Parent ]
money == good (none / 0) (#55)
by Mr. Quick on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 08:18:02 AM EST

adversiting sucks, i agree. money is good, tho. money allows for the purchase of goods and services. peace.
Thanks, they're called pants.
hehehe, now I can put him in the deadpool! (none / 0) (#56)
by Alhazred on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 09:16:00 AM EST

C'mon Rusty, do an IPO so I can put Kuro5hin Systems, Inc. in the dotcom deadpool! heehee ;o). (j/k of course). Have fun! OpenSales looks cool too.
That is not dead which may eternal lie And with strange aeons death itself may die.
[OT] Bug (none / 0) (#59)
by DJBongHit on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 10:40:51 AM EST

Little bug in the Scoop code, perhaps? Everything past this comment appears in italics (mode is Newest First, Nested.)

~DJBongHit

--
GNU GPL: Free as in herpes.

Re: [OT] Bug (none / 0) (#65)
by rusty on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 12:53:55 PM EST

It's an unclosed italic tag. It's sort of a bug, in that unclosed tags should get found and fixed, somehow. But it's more of a bug in the poster than the system. I usually fix unclosed tags myself, but I should really figure out how to get the system to fix them for us.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
HTML Tidy? (none / 0) (#77)
by pin0cchio on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 10:41:47 PM EST

HTML Tidy is a free tool from W3C that cleans up HTML. Barring that, the "post comment" op should do this:
  • Lowercase tags: <A HrEf="..."> becomes <a href="...">
  • For all tags that don't need a closing tag, put a / just before the >. E.g. <br> becomes <br />
  • Whenever certain tags (such as <li>) are opened twice in a row, close them.
  • Keep track of what order tags were opened in, and balance them. Now, whenever a tag is closed, and it doesn't match the most recently opened tag, close the most recently open tag until it matches.
You are that many steps closer to valid XHTML.
lj65
[ Parent ]
Shopping for bandwidth (none / 0) (#69)
by KindBud on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 02:33:59 PM EST

Before you go spend several Kilobucks/month on bandwidth, do not fail to evaluate Akamai.

And if you're going with an ad serving service, L90 uses Akamai, so your ads will be served off of Akamai's network, not yours.

Akamai's bandwidth is a little pricey compared to your garden variety IAP, but you get quite a bit more out of it than just bandwidth. Money spent on Akamai bandwidth is money you didn't spend on your IAP bandwidth. Do check it out.

Disclosure:  I am an Akamai customer and shareholder.

--
just roll a fatty

Homebrew Akamai (none / 0) (#72)
by rusty on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 04:43:55 PM EST

Akamai is cool. One of their VP's actually bought my grandmother's house in Newton, amusingly enough.

However, I've been taking a slightly more DIY route to the sort of thing they do. If you look at your Interface Preferences, you'll note there's a new option at the bottom of the list, where you can choose your preferred image server. Right now we only have one in Australia, because the bandwidth crunch is worst there. But I can add as many as necessary, geographically distributed wherever they need to be. Offloading images to a distributed mirror system would save a good chunk of bandwidth, and if I'm not mistaken, this is mainly what Akamai does, right? Only they have a fancy algorithm for determining where to serve stuff from...

I got in touch with L90, we'll see if they can do anything for us.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: Homebrew Akamai (none / 0) (#78)
by Anonymous Hero on Fri Jun 09, 2000 at 12:49:33 AM EST

Is there any way to make sure of the 'type' of ads that will be shown. I'm sick of those fake screen captured interfaces that convince my mother to go click on something when she doesn't have to.

Ads are ok, but fake interfaces are not.

[ Parent ]

Re: Homebrew Akamai (none / 0) (#79)
by rusty on Fri Jun 09, 2000 at 12:54:58 AM EST

One of the reasons that I was considering Burst Media is because they give you a lot of control over the ads themselves, AFAICT. I.e. you can select ads to run and not to run, they don't just serve up whatever crap they get. I don't like those fake interface ads much either, but there is a line. It irritates me when you truly can't tell the difference between the ad and the content. That's why newspapers put those big ----ADVERTISEMENT---- boxes around the cheesy little fake story ads.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Congrats (none / 0) (#71)
by Rasputin on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 03:58:03 PM EST

I honestly had no idea K5 was growing this fast. I certainly hope the growth won't negatively impact the feel of this place, because quite frankly, I love it here ;) Makes for an interesting experiment in web communities - are they all doomed to eventual failure after exceeding a certain size? I certainly hope not, but I guess we'll see.

Also, for me the ads won't be an issue, although my little neurons are furiously firing to find an income stream for a web community that doesn't involve ads or subscriptions. So far the best I could do is a corporate sponsor, and I don't think there are any likely candidates I would trust.

Anyhow, again congrats on the new job and K5 inc. ;)
Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.

Affiliate programs, anyone? (none / 0) (#76)
by pin0cchio on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 10:41:46 PM EST

my little neurons are furiously firing to find an income stream for a web community that doesn't involve ads or subscriptions.

An affiliation with an etailer such as fatbrain.com, perhaps? Running an adbar or two on the side?


lj65
[ Parent ]
Congratulations (none / 0) (#74)
by noek on Thu Jun 08, 2000 at 09:08:43 PM EST

Hope you enjoy yourself in your new home in Cali.
I have only one question: is this site really growing that big? You get me very curious on hitrates and stuff.

About the ads: See also my post in the article about how to go about advertising on K5.

Does this mean... (none / 0) (#82)
by pwhysall on Sun Jun 11, 2000 at 07:07:48 PM EST

...that Rusty is now an official representative of The Man?

:)
--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown

Re: Does this mean... (none / 0) (#83)
by rusty on Mon Jun 12, 2000 at 12:48:31 AM EST

No way! I used to work for The Man (EPA, then DOD vie DARPA). I'm out of that business now. I work strictly for The Womyn these days. ;-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
So it is true. (none / 0) (#84)
by pwhysall on Mon Jun 12, 2000 at 03:17:53 AM EST

That male superiority is a myth we are allowed to perpetuate to keep us amused?
--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown
[ Parent ]
K5, Inc. and California Dreamin' | 84 comments (84 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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