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[P]
Welcome back!

By rusty in News
Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 11:51:16 AM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

Well, it's been a long crazy summer, but at last, K5 is back in business. I'd like to be the first to welcome all the returning readers, who have been sorely missed, and also to welcome new readers, many of whom first heard of us when it was already too late. We haven't been sitting around idly during the past two months though -- the enterprising Scoop hackers have been hard at work adding new stuff. Some changes will be obvious right away, others are a little more subtle. Below I'll discuss the important things you should know about K5 Mark 2.

[editor's note, by Inoshiro] Rusty forgot to mention that AH posting is infact gone.


Post Rate Throttles:

I mention these only because the values may need tweaking early on. Basically, there are now throttles that will prevent users from posting too many comments or stories in a short period of time. This is not intended to ever affect normal humans, but instead to be an anti-script mechanism.

The system has preset maximum comments, time period, and maximum stories. If you exceed max stories or max comments in time period, you are prevented from posting for a timeout period of a few minutes. The site will show you a warning screen when this happens, and will also alert the admins. If you've been warned after posting normally, we will know about it and adjust the rates appropriately. We do ask that you bear with us initially, while we fine-tune these values.

If however, you are a spamming script, you will probably not notice that you've been warned and locked out. If you attempt to post again while you are locked out, the time period you must wait will double and restart. This continues as long as you keep trying to post during the timeout period. If you reach a maximum timeout period, the system will decide you must be a script, and your user account will be stripped of all posting privileges (and admins will be alerted again).

I must stress-- if you are posting normally, and are a human, and you get locked out, just wait a few minutes, and don't be too angry. We hope that this will never affect real users, and will make every effort to tume the initial parameters to make this so.

Sections:

We finally have sections! Each of those blue boxes up at the top will take you to a different section front page, which looks just like the normal front page, but only shows stories in that section.

When you submit stories now, please make sure you pick an appropriate section! I'd also prefer you don't pick "Front Page" as the section, as any story can end up on the front page, regardless of section. Which leads me to...

Voting Changes:

You now have four options when you vote on stories. "Post to Front Page" is a vote to post the story in it's section, and also to run it on the front page. This option should not be used too sparingly! I'd rather too many stories go up on the front page than too few. Nevertheless, there will be times (I expect many times in the case of the MLP section) when a story is just not really front-page material, but fits well in its section. In that case, vote "Post to Section Only", and that will be the case. The story will appear in its section, but not on the front page. And of course, you still have "Don't Care" and "Dump It" as always.

Comment Rating:

Comment rating is still the same system, but now you can set ratings as you read, and submit them all with one click, on any of the "Rate All" buttons. Submitting one rating at a time always was silly, so we fixed it. I urge you all to rate comments as a matter of habit, since the more folks rate, the better the rating and Mojo systems work! And that means I should probably explain...

Mojo:

Ok, bear with me, because this is a little complicated.

The site now includes a system called Mojo. Its goal is to identify users who have exhibited a strong history of contributing good comments, and who therefore probably have a strong motivation to keep the comments high-signal, and to enable these people to do that. Conversely, it should also identify those who have a history of spamming or being noise-generators, and require their comments to undergo peer-review before being posted. And overall, the goal is to keep the site as high-signal as possible for the greatest number of users.

So we start with your Mojo itself. "Mojo" is just a cute name for the rating that we would expect your next comment to earn, based on previous ratings. The system will take your last 30 comments, or however many you posted in the last 60 days (whichever comes first), which have been rated by other users (unrated comments don't count toward Mojo), and calculates a weighted average of those ratings, with newer comments counting for more than older ones. The number that comes out of this will be between the minimum and maximum ratings (0 to 5, here-- more on "0" later). Note that this number is bounded by the rating scale-- you cannot accumulate mojo, and it is pretty temporary, based on your very recent activity.

Users who have a mojo greater than 3.5, *and* who have a certain number of comments which contribute to that mojo, will become "trusted". This does not change how they post at all. What it does is gives them the option to rate comments 0; or one point below the standard rating scale. They also have the ability to see comments rated below 1, which normal and untrusted users do not have. So, trusted users can rate comments down below the visibility threshold for most users (1), and can rate comments up that are invisible to most users.

Please note that trusted status is earned solely through the ratings others submit on your comments. This is not some elite club of rusty's cronies, but the people you have voted for, by rating them highly on a consistent basis.

Normal users can always rate comments between 1 and 5, and can see comments that are rated between those values. They cannot see comments that are rated below one.

Now, if your Mojo is less than one, that means your comments have been rated 0 by one or more trusted users. If you have a certain number of comments contributing to your mojo, and it is still less than one, you will be considered untrusted. This means that your comments have been rated down often enough, by trusted users, that we would generally expect your next comment to be rated down as well. In this case, you are considered "untrusted".

Untrusted users can still post comments, and they can also rate others comments, between one and five, like normal. However, when an untrusted user posts a comment, it starts off with one rating point, equal to that user's Mojo. Since, by definition, that's less than the minimum viewable score, those comments will not be visible to anyone but trusted users. Part of the responsibility of being trusted, then, is reading comments by untrusted users and rating them up if they deserve it. Any comment may be rated up above the minimum threshold, and upward ratings will improve the untrusted user's mojo of course.

Yes, this means that if you are untrusted, you will not be able to see your own comments until they are rated up by a trusted user. The motivation for this is to provide a strong disincentive to spam, since the results of your spamming will not be visible to most users, including yourself. It works ultimately like a self-organizing peer-review system, where users who have demonstrated their responsibility in posting are given the added responsibility to review the input of those who have been less-than-trustworthy in the past.

Is this just Karma by another name? Most emphatically not. Key points of difference are: it is bounded both upper and lower, it is strongly responsive to the current state of things, and cannot be hoarded. A trusted user can easily become untrusted in a single day, if they happen to have such a Jekyll and Hyde personality.

So, welcome back! We hope K5 will be better than ever, and we are glad the long wait is finally over. Now get those stories you've been saving up all summer rolling in. :-)

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Display: Sort:
Welcome back! | 68 comments (68 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Heh (2.77 / 27) (#1)
by fluffy grue on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:04:06 PM EST

First post ;)
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]

Re: Heh (2.71 / 7) (#5)
by inspire on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:05:10 PM EST

Congratulations, I guess.
--
What is the helix?
[ Parent ]
Re: Heh (3.66 / 9) (#6)
by rusty on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:05:13 PM EST

/me kicks ass and takes names. ;-)

Welcome back, fluffy.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

(2.33 / 12) (#2)
by Aztech on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:04:30 PM EST

Welcome back everyone! been a long time!

Aztech.

First? (1.72 / 18) (#3)
by StatGrape on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:04:32 PM EST

I doubt it... welcome back, boys.

NerdPerfect
Re: First? (3.00 / 7) (#8)
by fluffy grue on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:07:52 PM EST

Nope, I have far less of a life than you. Oh, and it helps that I'm sitting around semi-bored during my office hours.
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]
[ Parent ]

Re: First? (2.25 / 4) (#18)
by StatGrape on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:16:43 PM EST

26 seconds. Nurtz.

NerdPerfect
[ Parent ]
Welcome back (2.60 / 10) (#4)
by Aztech on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:04:35 PM EST

Welcome back everyone! been a long time!

Aztech.

silver lining (2.83 / 12) (#7)
by mihalis on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:06:18 PM EST

Whilst k5 was down I spent enough time on scoop.kuro5hin.org to get curious and now I'm setting up my own scoop server (probably just for friends initially) and eventually I hope to contribute in some way.

Chris Morgan
-- Chris Morgan <see em at mihalis dot net>

Re: silver lining (2.25 / 4) (#12)
by tornado on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:11:49 PM EST

Same here. There wasn't a "Read scoop.kuro5hin.org" choice on the poll, unfortunately.

"I like [Mac OS X] significantly more than I like Windows NT, which is better than 95 or 98 in the way that smallpox is better than Ebola." -- Kyrrin
[ Parent ]

Trolls (2.66 / 15) (#9)
by loopd on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:08:15 PM EST

Now to see how well kuro5hin stands up to the army of SlashTrolls just waiting to spam, DOS and pester the server...

Damn them all... (3.00 / 1) (#66)
by kmself on Tue Sep 19, 2000 at 06:02:17 PM EST

But apparently they stayed away for our first day back. It would have been interesting (maybe too much so) to see how Scoop would have handled it.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

Re: Damn them all... (3.00 / 1) (#68)
by fluffy grue on Thu Sep 21, 2000 at 01:18:00 AM EST

How do you know they didn't? After all, there's lots of anti-spamming stuff now, and it's too much trouble to get an account on here just to troll for a few minutes' worth.
--
"Is not a quine" is not a quine.
I have a master's degree in science!

[ Hug Your Trikuare ]
[ Parent ]

WB (2.27 / 11) (#10)
by Thanatos on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:08:43 PM EST

glad to see you back..

Good to see k5 back! (2.36 / 11) (#11)
by ravenskana on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:10:30 PM EST

We missed this place. The changes all sound pretty good to me, and I suspect more improvements will continually be added. Pretty sweet. ravenskana

Finally! (2.58 / 12) (#13)
by Chris Andreasen on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:12:06 PM EST

Took you long enough!!! :)
Seriously, though... it's great to finally have K5 back up again. After months of social and intellectual stagnation wrapped up in utter boredom I could use a K5 fix.
Three cheers for rusty & Inoshiro:
Hip, hip, hooray!!!
Hip, hip, hooray!!!
Hip, hip, hooray!!!
--------
Is public worship then, a sin,
That for devotions paid to Bacchus
The lictors dare to run us in,
and resolutely thump and whack us?

Woohoo! (2.40 / 10) (#14)
by Perpetual Newbie on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:12:34 PM EST

Great to see this place working again.
Good job Rusty and everyone, getting k5 back up. Here's to many more great articles and discussions!

And here it is, live from the front lines... (4.60 / 25) (#15)
by inspire on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:13:45 PM EST

k5 - the relaunch / #kuro5hin, irc.kuro5hin.org, 4AM AEST

<Inoshiro> 20
<Inoshiro> 15
<Inoshiro> 10
<phUnBalanced> now is not the time inoshiro
<Inoshiro> 9
<Inoshiro> 8
<Inoshiro> 7
<Inoshiro> 6
<hurstdog> time to watch the load spike
<phUnBalanced> too many refreshes
<Inoshiro> 5
<Inoshiro> 4
<phUnBalanced> box going down
<Inoshiro> 3
<Inoshiro> 2
<Inoshiro> 1
<Inoshiro> asjklf gui3 vy35 er
<Inoshiro> sdf;kfw4io478wy
<Inoshiro> @)U#*(!$^^!#(*$^$
<ocelot> what?
<Inspire> uhh
<rusty> eek
<mdxi> 58?
<Inspire> wtf?!
<wildmage> doh
<phUnBalanced> ahhhhh
<Inoshiro> !@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@3rwf43
<joeyo> 51?
<Inspire> HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!
<Inspire> wait.
<phUnBalanced> lol
<GandalfGreyhame> "An error has occurred trying to access http://www.kuro5hin.org/.
Sorry that we're not more specific about what the error is"
<phUnBalanced> oy
<GandalfGreyhame> hehehe
<Inoshiro> rusty
<karsten> It's the *real* y2k
<Inoshiro> rusty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Inspire> :)
<Maarken> I think rusty is going to keep k5 from us in 58sec thunks. ;)
<Inoshiro> Connection refused
<Inspire> hahaha
<techt> Heh. Oops.
<Inoshiro> dylang@hex:~$ top
<Inoshiro> 1:00pm up 3 days, 18:09, 4 users, load average: 18.78, 7.89, 4.12
<Inspire> connection refused..
<hurstdog> cause apache is restarting me thinks
<joeyo> doh... oh well.. im going to class...
<Inoshiro> HOLY SHIT
<Inspire> whoa.
<Inspire> fucking..
<Inoshiro> Well
<joeyo> cheers rusty
<Inoshiro> It's dropped to 15
<karsten> Woah.
<Inspire> whoa dude :)
<hurstdog> wow. #k5'd
<Inoshiro> STOP REFRESHING


Remember folks, you heard it here first...
--
What is the helix?
ROFLMAO (4.00 / 8) (#23)
by rusty on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 02:18:54 PM EST

Oh my God is that funny. You'll notice the last thing I say there is "eek". After that, I was off trying frantically to get apache running, and I missed all the confusion. Thank you for posting that and making me laugh in the midst of the flattening we're getting. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
lol (2.66 / 6) (#30)
by joeyo on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:08:04 PM EST

Ahh. Good to see that K5 is back for real now. It was sorely missed. I guess what I am trying to say is... Welcome Back Everyone!

--
"Give me enough variables to work with, and I can probably do away with the notion of human free will." -- demi
[ Parent ]

Re: And here it is, live from the front lines... (2.50 / 6) (#43)
by randyrat on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 05:26:38 PM EST

I wish I had thought of getting on the IRC channel! That is hillarous! I knew something was up when I watched the page count down to 00:00:00 then the next refresh showed 00:00:58. Then I got a white screen. Then a server not found. But an 18 on the old load-o-meter? My god. No wonder it broke!

[ Parent ]
Re: And here it is, live from the front lines... (4.00 / 2) (#57)
by shonson on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 11:28:16 PM EST

Hehe, there are allways some fun times to be had in #kuro5hin :) The great thing about the channel as well is that there are people from all around the world in there, so you will usualy find someone active with something inteligent to say in the channel.
-- Steven in #kuro5hin
[ Parent ]
welcome back (2.50 / 8) (#16)
by blair on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:14:00 PM EST

i know i'm just repeating what is on the mind of many people (and probably posted by many as well), but welcome back.

this has brightened my day...

blair

Thank God! (3.12 / 8) (#17)
by TheLocust on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:15:18 PM EST

Well, I must say that I was a bit dismayed when I heard (initially) that Rusty was considering killing the whole thing. However, the massive outpouring that I saw afterward was a thing of true beauty. While many of us consider ourselves peronsal isolationists, it's good to know we at least have a consciousness that extends beyond our own person. Albeit, it was at Kuro5hin's expense, but then again, what is better to be a martyr that comes back to life?! Heh... anyway, it is good to see that the 'shin I grew to love is back, and has retained its original flavor. Glad to have you back.

Now, i'm just waiting for the Mojo Whores.
.......o- thelocust -o.........
ignorant people speak of people
average people speak of events
great people speak of ideas

Ahhhh.... (3.00 / 10) (#19)
by analog on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:18:42 PM EST

...that feels better! Welcome Back!!!.

While I'm here: I subscribed to scoop-help while you were down to try and keep an eye on the changes coming down the pike, and saw you were working on quite a few things. Is there a list available of the features that have already been added & what's coming, or does the list you gave in the article body cover it all already?

At Long Last (3.00 / 8) (#20)
by pwhysall on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:20:39 PM EST

MAN! It's good to see K5 is back!

The months of agonizingly making do with /. are over!

AND the site now looks georgous!

Today is a good day... (I just got my cvsup working on FreeBSD so I'm a very happy camper)
--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown

Welcome Back (3.09 / 11) (#21)
by BlaisePascal on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:20:58 PM EST

Welcome Back... Kuro5hin was my favorite before it died. Hopefully, it'll stay up this time!

What's the "+Hotlist" link? I don't remember seeing that before.

Re: Welcome Back (3.83 / 6) (#22)
by Inoshiro on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 01:38:26 PM EST

Actually, the hotlist feature is kinda old. It's been there since about my 4th security article (which means late March). It lets you track important stories easily :-)



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
... and there was much rejoicing! ;-) (2.90 / 11) (#24)
by Arkady on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 02:19:42 PM EST


Since it's just come back, I think it should be OK to post a useless "RAH!" comment. No other content, but I want to thank you folks for the work you've put into K5, and for the effort you've put into keeping it a public system. The Mojo design is really interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing how well it'll work out.

Now, if we can just get mirroring working on it we can stop getting the "connection refused" errors ... ;-)

Thanks, all.

-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


Welcome back (2.44 / 9) (#25)
by Emacs on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 02:28:30 PM EST

Well, I'm not the first, but it is heartfelt and sincere. I hope all goes well and the site will prosper and grow.

Best of luck Rusty !

Yay! (3.00 / 9) (#26)
by jetpack on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 03:05:55 PM EST

Glad to have y'all back! I want to express my appreciation for rusty and the gang for actually hanging out on irc during the interrim so we could get updates on the progress of K5. They seem like decent folks, BTW, in case you havent had the chance to talk to them.

And Inoshiro should hurry up and get his Comp Sci degree so I can hire him ...

Maybe K5 should change it's name to "Lazarus" or "Phoenix"? :)

Sorry for the seemingly random thoughts; It's been a while. So, while I'm completely off topic ... who's going to be the first "Mojo Whore" ;)
--
/* The beatings will continue until morale improves */
congrats! (3.00 / 8) (#27)
by madams on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 03:44:23 PM EST

Congrats to Capt. Rusty and crew. HMS Kuro5hin is seaworthy again!

K5 was sorely missed. I'm glad to see it back. The makeover is nice.

And maybe people will start reading the FAQ. What do ya think, Rusty?

--
Mark Adams
"But pay no attention to anonymous charges, for they are a bad precedent and are not worthy of our age." - Trajan's reply to Pliny the Younger, 112 A.D.

I'm so glad... (2.75 / 8) (#28)
by Rand Race on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 03:48:37 PM EST

... that K5 is back. All I've had to do while bored at work the past few months is to troll the slashdot submission que.

Seriously, congratulations on your hard work paying off guys. I dig the site so keep up the good work.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson

(3.11 / 9) (#29)
by Pyro P on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 03:50:49 PM EST

Hey, now i can have a +3 Mojo both in Nethack and on K5!

/me joins the love-in (3.12 / 8) (#31)
by Denor on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:08:45 PM EST

It's been said before, and likely better than I can, but it bears repeating: "Welcome back!"

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who read Slashdot and, after seeing one too many penis-bird posts, said "I miss K5".

On another, somewhat related note: I've not seen too much comment activity on the other stories. From what I recall of K5's glory days, there were orders of magnitude (well, an order of magnitude) more comments on stories than I see today. Of course, this is likely because people are taking the same route I am, and waiting for the /. effect to wear off before posting.

I'll go and do my part at some point :) For some reason, I feel compelled to be trusted. I'll slowly accumulate my mojo, and then - mwahahahaaa!

A trusted user can easily become untrusted in a single day

Oh. Nevermind, then. :)


-Denor


Possible mojo problem (3.46 / 13) (#32)
by qts on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:09:21 PM EST

I must confess to never having heard of K5 until you were taken down, but I'm a great fan of such communities.

Anyway, I must pick up on a possible problem with your idea of mojo. Is there not the possibility that a malicious group of users - or one user with multiple accounts - could progressively moderate themselves upwards and thus become trusted and thus be able to do down others? One only has to look at Usenet to see the damage such groups can do (fortunately, I've managed to avoid such). Worse is that only *one* such user is needed to make another's post score 0.

How to remedy this? I open the floor with the suggestions that a negatively moderated post by a trusted poster be flagged first, and that any user cannot positively moderate the same user within a set period of time.

Re: Possible mojo problem (4.87 / 8) (#42)
by Inoshiro on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 05:24:59 PM EST

The way Mojo works is that everyone gets to rate comments. That way there's little chance for this 'elite group' abuse. It's kinda like if everyone voted, 'special interests' would go bye-bye. Why this should work over real-world democracy is simple: it's so damn easy. Just click-click, and it's done.

Of course, should abuses manage to happen despite that, rusty or I can easily step in and sort things out. It's not like you're on your own here :-)



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Compulsory voting (was Re: Possible mojo problem) (3.60 / 5) (#49)
by hypatia on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 06:37:11 PM EST

It's kinda like if everyone voted, 'special interests' would go bye-bye.
Hmm. In Australia, where voting in State and Federal (and maybe local council, but I haven't been 18 long enough to know) elections is compulsory there are still pressure groups, and still a large number of people who think our elected representatives cater to various groups instead of them... and representatives who claim to be channeling the Australian heartland instead of such pressure groups and so on.

Maybe if everyone voted on issues (in the same way we're voting on comments) rather than on people or parties parties, the result you describe would eventuate.

[ Parent ]

Congratulations (2.00 / 6) (#33)
by sugarman on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:11:34 PM EST

...I beleive are in order.

I can't say how cool it was to check out k5 on a whim this morning and see the big countdown clock. Brightened up my whole day.

Course, around the same time I noticed the sotry on the /. main page and promptly held off while waiting for the dreaded Slash-Bomb to disperse.

Anyways, good to see everything back up and running, and I promise I'll write up a story or 3 to add some fuel to the content fire.
--sugarman--

Congratulations (2.00 / 8) (#34)
by sugarman on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:29:30 PM EST

...I beleive are in order.

I can't say how cool it was to check out k5 on a whim this morning and see the big countdown clock. Brightened up my whole day.

Course, around the same time I noticed the sotry on the /. main page and promptly held off while waiting for the dreaded Slash-Bomb to disperse.

Anyways, good to see everything back up and running, and I promise I'll write up a story or 3 to add some fuel to the content fire.
--sugarman--

Mojo Jojo (4.41 / 12) (#35)
by Stargazer on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:29:52 PM EST

I have some small suggestions that I think might be useful, albeit slight, modifications to the Mojo system.

First, give not-trusted users the ability to see, but not rate, pending comments. I really don't see a reason why people should not be allowed to read them if they so choose, and this does not destroy the intent of the Mojo system.

Second, offer users the option of whether or not they become trusted. Some people, for whatever reason, may consider themselves unable to effectively use the extra responsibility, and so should be given the option to be left alone about it. I could understand an option like this failing (not enough trusted users), but I think it at least warrants consideration -- or, perhaps more appropriately, further discussion. :)

That said, I congratulate the staff of kuro5hin.org for their return. Nice to have this site, back, guys, and thanks for the extra effort!

-- Brett



Re: Mojo Jojo (3.80 / 5) (#40)
by TheDude on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 05:14:58 PM EST

give not-trusted users the ability to see, but not rate, pending comments

Yeah, I agree completely with this. There's no reason why users (trusted or not) should have a limit on which comments they can choose to see. They should be able to see all comments in whatever score-range they wish. If they're not trusted, however, they shouldn't be able to rate comments, that's how /. gets into trouble, imo. You have a bunch of fools rating comments, you get a bunch of foolishly-rated comments, and mojo fails to work at its utmost potential.

offer users the option of whether or not they become trusted

Now this is interesting. Actually, it makes some good sense. There are people who may post good comments, and be rated up to a trusted-user status. However, they may not have the time/desire to perform their trusted-user status. There are probably quite a few people who would rather not be one of the trusted users, since they don't want to/can't spend the time to look for underrated comments, overrated comments, abusers of the posting systems, etc. Those users opt to allow themselves to become trusted users would probably do a much better job of moderating comments than someone who just happened to be given trusted-user status, but doesn't really want to be one.

I as well must congratulate all of the K5 staff on getting this site back up. I know it's taken a good bit of work, and I appreciate the time you all have given to create this informative and interesting site. Thanks all.

--
TheDude of Smokedot
Drug Info, Rights, Laws, and Discussion
Visit #smokedot on irc.smokedot.org

[ Parent ]
Mo(jo)tivations (5.00 / 1) (#64)
by rusty on Tue Sep 19, 2000 at 11:09:45 AM EST

Note-- this is a reply to the original comment in this thread as well...

> give not-trusted users the ability to see, but not rate, pending comments

Yeah, I agree completely with this. There's no reason why users (trusted or not) should have a limit on which comments they can choose to see.

The reason I don't want to do that is to provide a very strong incentive not to become untrusted. What you see happening on /. a lot is that little cliques of spammers form around one or another of them, and they follow each other around, spamming each story with the same crap. Here, these people would quickly become untrusted, and their comments rendered invisible, even to them, and that ends that spam clique. Repeat this enough times, and they learn that that sort of thing is just not welcome here.

I understand the mindset that users should be able to read anything they want to, but in this case I don't agree with it. I think the community is better served by putting a peer-review stage in place before comments by known-untrusted users are generally visible. Remember that untrusted users can only be created by trusted users, and that it takes a significant history of spamming to get this status. I don't expect it to affect many users, and the ones it does are the ones who are almost guaranteed to be spamming every time they post.

Basically, K5 is not about "total freedom"-- it is about collective will. Total freedom would say that you should be able to see any comment. I would rather see the collective decide when someone needs to be reviewed, and have less noise as a result. Do you really want all the slashtrolls to move in here and take up residence, whether you can filter them or not? I don't. That's the idea behind the hard rating limit.

> offer users the option of whether or not they become trusted

Now this is interesting. Actually, it makes some good sense. There are people who may post good comments, and be rated up to a trusted-user status. However, they may not have the time/desire to perform their trusted-user status.

In a way, I know what you're saying. But I also don't think this really applies. "Trusted status" is not a scarce commodity-- if you become trusted and never rate a single post, you haven't wasted anything. The reason you can tell Slash that you don't want to moderate posts over there is that mod points are a scarce resource-- it doles them out in limited quantities, and if you're not going to use yours, they would be better given to someone else.

Rating here is available to everyone, all the time. There's no cap on the number of people who become trusted, or the rating points they have, so if you never use yours, no harm done. If it works right, the system will mostly identify people who are likely to be good trusted users and review low rated posts and stuff.

Now, what I do think should be possible is for trusted users to set their "view" prefs to be the same as an untrusted user-- i.e. filter sub-one rated comments. I'll try to get this in pretty soon. That way, if you become trusted, and don't want to deal with it, you can just set yourself in "normal mode" and ignore the whole thing.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Re: Mo(jo)tivations (3.00 / 1) (#67)
by TheDude on Wed Sep 20, 2000 at 03:42:19 AM EST

The reason I don't want to do that [> give not-trusted users the ability to see, but not rate, pending comments] is to provide a very strong incentive not to become untrusted.

Good point. I guess it would get pretty useless trolling when even you yourself couldn't see your posts. Must admit, I never would have thought of that :)

Rating here is available to everyone, all the time. There's no cap on the number of people who become trusted, or the rating points they have, so if you never use yours, no harm done

I suppose you're right. There really isn't much difference between truster-user points and non-trusted-user points. They do the same thing.

--
TheDude of Smokedot
Drug Info, Rights, Laws, and Discussion
Visit #smokedot on irc.smokedot.org

[ Parent ]
Congratulations... (3.14 / 7) (#36)
by sugarman on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:38:09 PM EST

...I believe are in order.

I can't say how cool it was to check out k5 on a whim this morning and see the big countdown clock. Brightened up my whole day.

Course, around the same time I noticed the sotry on the /. main page and promptly held off while waiting for the dreaded Slash-Bomb to disperse.

Anyways, good to see everything back up and running, and I promise I'll write up a story or 3 to add some fuel to the content fire.
--sugarman--

..and apologies (3.00 / 2) (#65)
by sugarman on Tue Sep 19, 2000 at 11:53:09 AM EST

Big time. I have little to no idea how this got triple-posted (and it was just my lame obligatory "Welcome back" metoo anyways), but I:m really, REALLY sorry.

(Doesn't matter as my mojo is sunk now anyways) =(


--sugarman--
[ Parent ]

Hurray! (2.71 / 7) (#37)
by gandalf_grey on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:48:31 PM EST

Just happy happy happy that you're back.

Small note. We really should take it easier in future on the "other place". /. definately supported K5 while we were down, and provided a substitute (good if not perfect) during the outage.



Yay! (3.80 / 10) (#38)
by evro on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:52:34 PM EST

I remember the day K5 went down because I had some question I had to ask and I wanted to ask it here. Man, was I pissed. I have since forgotten what the question was, but I'm still quite glad to see you back.

Any word on the dude[s] who put the site down in the first place?

Also, I was wondering if we could see what the k5 traffic looked like while it was down. I know I checked it like every day -- the first few weeks it was just out of habit.

And a couple of suggestions/pseudocomplaints -- maybe add an 'etc.' section, or an 'ask k5' type of a thing, since I don't know where a technical question would go. Also, the left column on the front page makes it look really cluttered. How can I turn it off?

Great to see ya back.
---
"Asking me who to follow -- don't ask me, I don't know!"
Welcome back (3.55 / 9) (#39)
by FFFish on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 04:57:22 PM EST

Thanks for trying again, Rusty. It was 'bout killing me to rely on Sla^h^h^hThe Site Which Name Should Not Be Said.

Mojo sounds good. I sure hope it works better than karma, which has been rendered useless by poor moderating and silly-ass games played by the sysops.

Posting limits are A Good Thing. Don't get too concerned if the occasional someone whinges about it -- it's not too much to expect that people think twice before posting. One of those thoughts can easily be "Have I said everything I need to?"

Smiles all 'round! Thx again!
fffish


welcome back :) (3.00 / 7) (#41)
by pharm on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 05:23:21 PM EST

Good to see the return...

Yeah, I know, its a bit of a m3 t00 post, but
I think for this thread alone its worth saying.

Kuro5hin was a valued piece of the net a few months
ago (at least *I* valued it anyway :) ). Lets hope
it can be so again...

happy posting everyone,

Phil

Yeah, buddy!! (2.50 / 8) (#44)
by Potsy on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 05:47:29 PM EST

Yes! I have been waiting for this with such rapt anticipation...

I have to say I was really glad all the existing user accounts stayed around after the relaunch. Don't know what I would have done if I had to figure out a new nickname because somebody from /. came along and took mine.

Anyway, congratualtions to everybody. K5 rules!

Yay! (2.62 / 8) (#45)
by mezzo on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 05:55:08 PM EST

I'm glad to see Kuro5hin back! Thx to all the people who've worked on the code. Hopefully this mojo thing will work out.

Btw, it was cool to see the slashdot people being mostly nice and supportive about the whole thing.



"The avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote."-- Kosh
Welcome Back! (2.55 / 9) (#46)
by Strange Charmed One on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 06:09:13 PM EST

Doubt I can add anythingnew, but welcome back all the same.
--
Feel the urge to put excessively cute little quotes into your .sig?

JUST SAY NO!

If you or one of your friends is frequently plagued by this tendency, Help IS available- Ask me how.

Great Site (3.27 / 11) (#47)
by Daemosthenes on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 06:14:30 PM EST

Well, I'm really glad that the new k5 is now up. During the down time, I spent a few hours in irc at #kuro5hin. I was really impressed by the welcoming attitude and helpfulness of Rusty and Inoshiro. I'd just like to thank you guys for being kinder than certain other *coughslashcoughdotcough* administrators. From what I've seen, this is a great site, and you've just won yourself another reader. Thanks a lot guys.

-
Welcome back! and...Mojo?? (2.71 / 7) (#48)
by pete on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 06:30:20 PM EST

Welcome back k5.

Is this just Karma by another name? Most emphatically not. Key points of difference are: it is bounded both upper and lower, it is strongly responsive to the current state of things, and cannot be hoarded. A trusted user can easily become untrusted in a single day, if they happen to have such a Jekyll and Hyde personality.

I hope not. I haven't had the time to fully consider the implications of this yet, but IMO, karma was one of the things that sunk Slashdot. Sure, I still read the headlines. Once again, IMO, marking down trolls is like paying attention to little kids who want to annoy you. If they get a response, it just encourages them to continue. Also, is it trademarked or anything? I haven't been over there in a while.


--pete


Re: Welcome back! and...Mojo?? (2.66 / 3) (#50)
by aphrael on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 07:01:02 PM EST

but IMO, karma was one of the things that sunk Slashdot

That's an interesting perspective. I'm not sure how the existence of the karma system could have *decreased* the quality of the average post --- i'm sure someone could put together a game theory argument for it, but that part of my brain got turned off today. Certainly it shifted the power balance within the community, and the automatic +1 to posts decreased the signal/noise ratio at moderation level '2' ... but the trolls would have come anyway. Luckily, I never see them now, except when i'm metamoderating. :)

[ Parent ]
Re: Welcome back! and...Mojo?? (3.66 / 3) (#55)
by pete on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 09:41:08 PM EST

My perspective is, I guess, based on two points.

1. As mentioned above, it encouraged trolling by providing some kind of feedback or reward.
2. Getting a high scoring post became as important as (if not moreso than) contributing to the discussion.

You can certainly choose to disagree, but in my mind it makes sense. ;-)


--pete


[ Parent ]
Yes, Mojo is trademarked (4.50 / 2) (#51)
by kmself on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 07:17:07 PM EST

About 113 times, by a variety of organizations, with effective dates ranging from 1957 to present. The dictionary definition is pretty close to the intended meaning at K5: "broadly: magical power". The majority of the TM listings specifically indicate a logo or combination of words. MojoNation has a pending tradmark application on "Mojo", filed August 3, 2000. There is also a registration for "Mojo Nation", filed Nov. 22, 1999, but apparently still pending, with an action letter mailed April 26, 2000.

"Mojo" itself as a description of power, rating, or similar, would likely be ruled descriptive language, which is not permitted by the USPTO.

You'll note also that the domain "mojonation.com" appears to have a different registered owner, and predates, mojonation.net.

--
Karsten M. Self
SCO -- backgrounder on Caldera/SCO vs IBM
Support the EFF!!
There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

Hallelujah, I'm free at last! (2.62 / 8) (#52)
by FlinkDelDinky on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 08:14:03 PM EST

Oh well, I'm the 52nd post and nobody's going to read this but I feel compelled to say the same damn thing my 51 predeccessors have already so eloquently stated.

It's great that K5 is back, it's great to see some familiar names too. Thank you Rusty, Inoshiro, and crew.

There's just something unique about the K5 experience. I really missed it.

me too (2.80 / 5) (#53)
by h2odragon on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 08:38:58 PM EST

Glad ya'll are back; if ya'd have held off for another week I might well have been happier. I'm busy this week and don't need to be spending ... "research" time here. Truly, 'twas hard while you were gone, I'd become used to a higher quality forum for my rantngs. I'm looking forward to exploring the rest of the site now that the rush seems to have slacked a bit.

I'd say your changes will throttle the problems back, and I reckon that you've either planned or executed your vengance on the parties responsible for your problems in the first place. I know that the mature response is to silence and ignore 'em to the extent possible, and the constraints you've added sound reasonable to me... but stark raving vengance still makes the world go 'round, so tell us what you did to 'em.

There is a question that I didn't see asked yet: Did you have to sell your soul, firstborn child, and left nut as a part of the rebuild process or has there really been all this open-handed and very generous support?

...rusty got *paid* by fluffy grue; let's *shave* fluffy...

Re: me too (3.00 / 1) (#63)
by rusty on Tue Sep 19, 2000 at 10:47:18 AM EST

There is a question that I didn't see asked yet: Did you have to sell your soul, firstborn child, and left nut as a part of the rebuild process or has there really been all this open-handed and very generous support?

Actually, despite the paranoid ravings of certain individuals, we haven't given up any of our independence just yet. Both VA and VHosting asked if I needed any help, along with quite a few others. Technically, the ad for vhosting is part of our service contract, but I'd have given them a prominent plug even if I didn't have to. VA didn't ask for anything in return for the sweet FullOn they gave us, but it's only right to let everyone know that they helped us out (not that Slashdot isn't doing a good job of that ;-)). Yes, the idea that people on the net help each other out in times of need is not (yet) a myth!

And to everyone who emailed me and I didn't get back to, thank you! You are all partly responsible for K5 being back, by having given me the will and motivation to keep working at it. You all rock like Gibraltar.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

scoop.kuro5hin.org down? (1.83 / 6) (#54)
by Sygnus on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 09:27:35 PM EST

I keep getting 500 errors when I try to connect to scoop.kuro5hin.org :/

Man, you guys have been busy! (2.33 / 3) (#56)
by mahonri on Mon Sep 18, 2000 at 10:16:41 PM EST

I've been running mahonri.org the whole time k5 has been down, and it's been quite a challenge to keep up with all the changes in scoop. In fact, my last update is from the middle of last week and there are a boatload of features here on k5 that I'm missing at mahonri.org.

As a side note, I'd like to publicly thank Rusty and company (especially hurstdog) for their personal help on my site. I don't know what they said behind my back, but they were really nice to me even when they were fixing my mistakes. I am really greatful.
--
Family and Religion based news and discussion
Mahonri.org

K5 is pretty cool (2.33 / 3) (#58)
by MrProgrammer on Tue Sep 19, 2000 at 12:05:09 AM EST

Hey all I discovered /. a while ago, and have been reading it ever since. When the K5 stuff came up, I read all about it, and was real excited to check it out. Basically, this site rocks. The cool thing is, you don't even need to glance at the rating for a post - the posts seem to always be good. Can't wait to see how things progress.
'Round the firewall, Out the modem, Past the server, Through the router, Down the wire, NOTHING BUT NET.
Me too? (2.50 / 4) (#59)
by adamant on Tue Sep 19, 2000 at 12:57:20 AM EST

I am so glad to see k5 back! It's been a busy summer -- new job for Rusty and a relocation, the great k5 hiatus of 2000, and I also had to relocate. I'm glad everything's back to normal though.

Of course, all the new rules make me somewhat sad. It was nice when we were an out of the way community that didn't have to worry about some punk kid ruining it.

So with that -- fare well Anonymous Hero!

-adam

*BONUS: The plain text feature is big enough to read now!

front page is too crowded (3.16 / 6) (#60)
by libertaduno on Tue Sep 19, 2000 at 02:14:37 AM EST

I am so happy you guys are back. thanks!

I think the poll on the left side of the front page is a little much. On my 800x600 screen the site is a little crowded.

I liked the layout K5 had before the shutdown.


Truth is never bad. -- Ernesto Guevara
Oh, come on! (2.25 / 4) (#62)
by randyrat on Tue Sep 19, 2000 at 09:41:20 AM EST

800x600? What kind of a geek are you? You should be at 1600x1200 on a 21 inch monitor at least! :)

Besides, you are giving us geeks a bad rap. We may have to revoke your nerd license....



[ Parent ]
K5 has been missed! =) (2.50 / 4) (#61)
by WWWWolf on Tue Sep 19, 2000 at 04:16:51 AM EST

It's really nice to see K5 back up - I didn't used K5 for a long time before you went down, but long enough to get hooked. Umm, so, I'd just like to say it's a great day, and the world is again more or less as it's supposed to be. =)

-- Weyfour WWWWolf, a lupine technomancer from the cold north...


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