Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
New York Firefighters Furious at Giuliani's Cutbacks

By greenrd in News
Sat Nov 03, 2001 at 10:22:44 PM EST
Tags: News (all tags)
News

"At least a dozen firefighters were arrested Friday after a scuffle with police at ground zero, where they denounced cutbacks of fire and police personnel searching for remains" reports CBS New York.

The firefighters are angry at Giuliani's order to scale back the search for remains from about 100 to no more than 24 firefighters at any one time. They want to recover the bodies of their comrades and other lost civilians - before those bodies are carried away along with the rubble - as a matter of basic human dignity. Giuliani cited safety concerns in an attempt to justify his decision. However, a BBC article reports that some firefighters are saying the decision has more to do with money, with millions of dollars being paid in overtime to their men who have been working round-the-clock since the twin towers were destroyed on 11 September.


Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Related Links
o CBS New York.
o BBC article
o Also by greenrd


Display: Sort:
New York Firefighters Furious at Giuliani's Cutbacks | 21 comments (20 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
Hahahah (1.80 / 10) (#1)
by J'raxis on Fri Nov 02, 2001 at 05:38:12 PM EST

So “Hero Giuliani” was just an act. Gee, he’s a politician. What a surprise.

— The Cynical Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]

My thoughts exactly (2.66 / 3) (#2)
by greenrd on Fri Nov 02, 2001 at 05:55:02 PM EST

Can you imagine any major news medium doing anything other than praising him to the hilt after what happened - unless he managed to royally screw something up? It just wouldn't be patriotic, would it? It was like a free lunch for him. (Ah... my next conspiracy theory - just kidding!) I gave the post-Sep-11 eulogies of Giuliani (which also appeared in supposedly clearer-headed media over here in the UK) zero credibility for that very reason.


"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

Hero Giuliana (4.33 / 3) (#7)
by Anoymous 22666 on Fri Nov 02, 2001 at 08:15:40 PM EST

I don't think he was acting at all. And I never recalled anyone call him a "hero." He was just doing what needs to be done, and doing the decent thing of searching for survivors and / or bodies for proper burial was the "Right Thing" to do.

Unfortunately, as with all things over time, priorities change. They've probably recovered as much as they are going to, body-wise. Everything else will just be unrecognizable and unplacable - a finger, an arm, a crushed foot. It could be said that there isn't much left to recover.

So, why not redirect the resources to things that are more needed - like real fire protection? Especially with the danger of a repeat terrorist attack, the city could use well-rested, prepared and ready emergency response teams. They are probably not getting the rest and closure they need, continuing to dig in the wreckage.

I don't mean to sound cold or heartless, but at some point in time, everything has to move on and return to normal. Things are not normal, but we need to take small steps in that direction.

I just farted... And I blame the fiction section. - Psycho Les


[ Parent ]
erm. (1.66 / 3) (#10)
by delmoi on Sun Nov 04, 2001 at 04:25:59 AM EST

So "Hero Giuliani" was just an act. Gee, he's a politician. What a surprise.

So, the "Hero Firefighter" was just an act. Gee, they're just money-grubbing thugs. What a surprise.
--
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
The difference (4.00 / 1) (#11)
by greenrd on Sun Nov 04, 2001 at 07:48:33 AM EST

I hope you're being sarcastic, one can never tell around here...

Anyway, the difference is, of course, we've all heard about the firefighters heroism. What exactly has Guiliana done? Been a figurehead? Made a lot of speeches? Excuse me if I don't sound too impressed.


"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

He's doing his job right now ... (none / 0) (#14)
by Kalani on Mon Nov 05, 2001 at 05:45:52 AM EST

God what do you want from the man? He's dealing with finite resources and the people who protest his decisions would do better to request his finance figures and provide their own suggestions than to just say, "this is inhumane!" What's your big-picture non-emotive long-term solution greenrd?

-----
"I [think] that ultimately physics will not require a mathematical statement; in the end the machinery will be revealed and the laws will turn out to be simple, like the checker board."
--Richard Feynman
[ Parent ]
What if (1.00 / 1) (#17)
by greenrd on Mon Nov 05, 2001 at 02:01:14 PM EST

What if they do both? How do you know they aren't doing both? You assume too much. Unions can be constructive - they want to actually get their way, not make a meaningless posture which doesn't achieve anything.


"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

I'm talking about you ... (none / 0) (#21)
by Kalani on Tue Nov 06, 2001 at 02:42:06 AM EST

... and it's safe to assume that you're not doing both until you put up a story that includes the financial part of the issue. You're ignoring a vital subset of the environment in which this is all happening.

Furthermore, I'm not making any statements about unions one way or the other. I'm making a statement about your submission, which is essentially emotive.

-----
"I [think] that ultimately physics will not require a mathematical statement; in the end the machinery will be revealed and the laws will turn out to be simple, like the checker board."
--Richard Feynman
[ Parent ]
It's all about money (none / 0) (#16)
by delmoi on Mon Nov 05, 2001 at 10:26:40 AM EST

It's about money on Guilani's side, but it is with the firefighters as well, don't act like it is. You think they'd all work there for free if Guliani let them?

Guliani is lauded because he was a good figurehead. Obviously, the response to by a city to an event like this should be automatic (follow the emergency plan), but Guliani was also out there calming people down, etc.

On the other hand, while these firefighters were heroic, the behavior of the protesters was ridiculous. Storming wreckage? punching cops? Yeh... that's going to speed things up, sure.

Anyway, I don't see what the big deal is. The people in the wreckage are dead. Having more firefighters around isn't going to help them.
--
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
Actually... (1.00 / 1) (#18)
by greenrd on Mon Nov 05, 2001 at 02:04:32 PM EST

the behavior of the protesters was ridiculous. Storming wreckage? punching cops? Yeh... that's going to speed things up, sure.

Well, it got them on the news. And if anyone can fight the police and still retain public sympathy, it's the New York firefighters.


"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

DIY (none / 0) (#19)
by darthaya on Mon Nov 05, 2001 at 04:40:36 PM EST

Do you think it is easy to be a figurehead? I guess you had never been to a position that actually manages people. Not even one.


[ Parent ]
Winter's coming.... (4.66 / 3) (#3)
by catseye on Fri Nov 02, 2001 at 05:55:57 PM EST

As horrible as it may be to have to just haul away bodies and pieces/parts with the building debris, I'm not sure they're going to have a choice if they want to finish before winter sets in. They're not really going to be able to do much of anything in heavy slush and snow. I read somewhere that the idea of a giant dome over the crash site was being mulled over so that workers could continue through the winter, but the cost for something like that is probably staggering.

Does anyone know if they're pulling actual bodies out of the rubble now, or just unidentifiable biomass?



Yes and no (4.00 / 3) (#4)
by aphrael on Fri Nov 02, 2001 at 06:07:11 PM EST

In two ways, the coming of winter might actually *help*.

  • For one thing, snowfall might put the fires out. They're *still burning*, and that makes portions of the site dangerous.
  • They should drop the temperature enough to kill the smell. Nobody's really talking about this, but ... there are a couple thousand bodies in there, right? Some of them weren't vaporized or reduced to ash. They stink, and it can be smelled all over lower manhattan.


[ Parent ]
New York City doesn't have that much snow. (3.00 / 1) (#9)
by sonovel on Sun Nov 04, 2001 at 03:39:10 AM EST

NYC isn't Afghanistan. It quite often doesn't even have snow at Christmas for example.



[ Parent ]
Depends on the year. (none / 0) (#12)
by aphrael on Mon Nov 05, 2001 at 01:54:07 AM EST

Since my new years' plans last year were destroyed by an ice storm in New York City, I think it's perfectly reasonable to claim that it *can* have snow. :)

[ Parent ]
Of course it gets snow (none / 0) (#15)
by sonovel on Mon Nov 05, 2001 at 10:00:44 AM EST

NYC does get snow most years, sometimes it even gets a foot or more. But the snow doesn't last the whole winter, unlike say, Buffalo. The original comment made it sound like things would shut down for the whole winter. NYC doesn't get that kind of cold and snow.

[ Parent ]
Hmmm ... maybe (none / 0) (#20)
by aphrael on Tue Nov 06, 2001 at 02:22:42 AM EST

although I really don't think my message did: all it did was speculate that snow might put out the fires and the cold might kill the smell. :)

[ Parent ]
I can attest to the smell (none / 0) (#13)
by jcolter on Mon Nov 05, 2001 at 04:17:46 AM EST

I've been working on the West side for the last couple of weeks. In the late afternoon, the acrid smell is clearly a reminder to all in the area.

[ Parent ]
OMG (3.60 / 5) (#5)
by Sheepdot on Fri Nov 02, 2001 at 07:23:20 PM EST

I just +1, FP'd a greenrd story. Imagine that.

Giuliani should be credited with giving New Yorkers someone they could rely on, himself, after these events. The guy isn't a "hero" in any respect, but he's someone New Yorkers tended to identify with.

The general feeling in the US after the attack was a sense of finding something in common with your neighbors, no matter was race, religion, or class they were. The flag was a perfect way to do this.

And for New York City, so was Giuliani.

It would make sense now that a compromise be reached so the firefighters don't dry up the city's budget before the end of the year. I understand their desires to pull their comrades out and give them a proper burial.


Well, what do you want? (4.66 / 3) (#8)
by /dev/trash on Fri Nov 02, 2001 at 11:59:50 PM EST

Work overtime and drain the city's finances so taxes have to triple and everyone starts to move out. Or drain the finances and start cutting back on pay and overtime? Or just reduce the number people who work.
The taxpayers will be pissed if the first happens.
The firefighters ( union ) would never allow such cuts to be made.
Rudy picked this method and it makes sense. Piss off all of NYC or just a subset. In the real world it's what has to be done sometimes.



---
Updated 02/20/2004
New Site

New York Firefighters Furious at Giuliani's Cutbacks | 21 comments (20 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!