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Loki Files Chapter 11

By John Milton in News
Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 01:17:48 PM EST
Tags: Software (all tags)
Software

It's being reported on Linux Today and Slashdot that Loki Games filed for bankruptcy. According to LinuxPorts, "Loki owes Activision USD 330,000 and Prolix USD 100,000." If you like Linux gaming, now would be a good time to stock up.

Loki's filing. (pdf)


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Poll
Linux games
o I don't buy them, because they come out on Windows first 13%
o I don't buy them, because they're a waste of money 2%
o I don't buy them, because I don't use Linux for gaming 34%
o I buy them 28%
o I don't play games 16%
o other 5%

Votes: 98
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Slashdot
o Linux Today
o Slashdot [2]
o Loki Games
o LinuxPorts
o filing.
o Also by John Milton


Display: Sort:
Loki Files Chapter 11 | 46 comments (41 topical, 5 editorial, 0 hidden)
To bad (2.00 / 2) (#1)
by BobRoy on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 07:19:40 AM EST

I have to admit that I don't buy any games for linux. I use windows to play my games, but I still think it sad when a company goes under.

If it's wet, Drink it!


Not quite dead (3.50 / 2) (#2)
by John Milton on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 07:29:57 AM EST

Loki's President sent this comment to Linux Games. They filed for a chapter 11 reorganization not a chapter 7 liquidation, but I think it's a matter of semantics. How many companies come back from chapter 11?


"When we consider that woman are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should Treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." -Elizabeth Cady Stanton


[ Parent ]
Coming back from Chapter 11. (4.00 / 3) (#12)
by RadiantMatrix on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 08:36:38 AM EST

How many companies come back from chapter 11?
A lot. If the courts do not think there is a reasonable chance that the organization in question can recover after filing under Chapter 11, they will not approve the filing.

--
No amount of genius can overcome a preoccupation with detail.

[ Parent ]
Not surprising at all (4.00 / 7) (#5)
by AmberEyes on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 07:47:20 AM EST

Of course they were going to go bankrupt - I could see the writing on the wall a long time before this happened. Their ports of Rune, SimCity 3000 Unlimited, Unreal Tournament, and Tribes2 were a last ditch effort which failed.

Any company that ports software over to the Linux gaming community (which, sadly, is almost unexistant) is going to experience bad sales....there's simply not enough Linux boxes, and of those boxes, not enough people willing to play the games, and of those people, not enough willing to pay for those games, for it to be a good business. In fact, even PC computer game sales, for the most part, is a hugely hit or miss industry. Save for the occassional heavy-hitter (such as Unreal Tournament or Quake3), sales on most games do pathetically average, or slightly below. Anti-piracy measures would help a bit, but not enough says my gut.

Even Quake3's Linux port did poorly - id reported massive faliures of the campaign/experiment to see what percentage of the Linux community would buy their Linux port, but that had two strikes against it. First, their Linux port was delayed shipping (Linux users then bought the Windows version the day it arrived then applied the Linux binaries to it), and secondly, because of the reasons I stated earlier - It's simply too small of a commercial vector to accurately hit and use.

Yes, the linux sales figures were low. Low enough that they are certainly not going to provide an incentive for other developers to do simultaneous linux releases, which was a good chunk of my goal. The sales would cover the costs of porting, but they wouldn't make a bean-counter blink. (later on) That becomes the crucial question: How much inconvenience is it worth to help nurture a new market? We tried a small bit of it with Q3 by not making the linux executables available for a while. Is it worth even more? The upside is that a visibly healthy independent market would bring more titles to it. --John Carmack (Post #251 - the direct post link seems to be broken - sorry)
This isn't a slam against Linux users by any means though. It's just not surprising at all that this happened to Loki.

-AmberEyes


"But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
The spirit is able (3.66 / 3) (#11)
by 0xdeadbeef on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 08:34:42 AM EST

but the flesh is annoyed.

What killed them was the fact that their games were Linux-only. For most of the games, when you bought the Linux version, all you got was the Linux version. Most publishers seem to think that their windows product and the Linux port produced and distributed by Loki are seperate products. And the only way Loki gets paid is when you buy the Linux version.

Which is fucking stupid, because you still have to boot the evil operating system to play most games. When I have to reboot anyway, I'd rather buy all my games for Windows, rather than wait on the Linux ports. Why I can't I just buy the game once, and download the Linux binaries off the net, or god forbid, have a game come with both!?

If only more game developers were as sharp as Carmack, and able and willing to write portable code to begin with. Bunch of half-wit slackers...

[ Parent ]
The linux ports weren't free downloads... (none / 0) (#38)
by msphil on Thu Aug 16, 2001 at 02:09:04 PM EST

...because unless the original developer has a personal itch to scratch (cf. id and Epic), you have to buy their interest with wads of cash, then pay people to do the work.

Once you've made that investment, making the resulting product available for free doesn't look like a very good value proposition for the people fronting the cash for the first two parts. Thus, the need to recoup the costs.

If the "win" from doing a Linux version were self-evident, Loki wouldn't have been necessary to bring games to Linux.

[ Parent ]

Not just that (3.00 / 3) (#14)
by John Milton on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 09:17:13 AM EST

The other problem is duel booting. Most Linux users probably have a copy of Windows to play games on. There was no incentive to buy Linux games except for loyalty.


"When we consider that woman are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should Treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." -Elizabeth Cady Stanton


[ Parent ]
XP may help solve that (3.00 / 2) (#25)
by error 404 on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 04:05:46 PM EST

As Microsoft clamps down, the dual boots are going to be less and less a factor.


..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

[ Parent ]

Average (4.00 / 1) (#41)
by vectro on Fri Aug 17, 2001 at 03:26:52 PM EST

sales on most games do pathetically average

...As opposed to other industries, where most products experience above-average sales.

“The problem with that definition is just that it's bullshit.” -- localroger
[ Parent ]

Carmack/Linux followup on Linux game sales (none / 0) (#46)
by AmberEyes on Mon Aug 20, 2001 at 06:55:03 AM EST

Dunno if anyone is going to see this, but....fresh off the press on Sunday, August 20, 2001....

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=20503&cid=2195211

"All linux games sales EVER don't add up to one medium selling windows title. We are one of the creditors that aren't likely to see money that Loki owes us, so we have some idea just how grim it is.

That isn't saying that it can't change in the future, or that doing linux ports isn't a Good Thing, but it isn't an economic motivator at the present time.

John Carmack"

-AmberEyes


"But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
[ Parent ]
It ain't over till the fat lady sings... (4.37 / 8) (#7)
by fvw on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 08:11:24 AM EST

From linuxgames:

Loki Software President Scott Draeker sent in the following regarding the bankruptcy report:
People should not confuse this with a Chapter 7 liquidation, where you close the doors and sell off the assets. That is not what we have done. We filed a Chapter 11 reorganization. This will allows us to deal with our creditors fairly and equitably and at the same time continue to operate the company. We are still shipping products and porting new games and expect to be doing so for a long, long time.

Good riddance, John, you drunk! (2.70 / 20) (#10)
by Jane Milton on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 08:31:42 AM EST

Those damn computer games are the #1 reason our marriage failed, after your drinking and whoring, and... the beatings. God, you people should have seen how John would get, there with his computer hooked up to the TV in the den, emtpy wine cooler bottles everywhere, and his eyes glazed over like an animal. He is an animal, and those devil games are to blame. The games and the peach zinfandel.

He would hit me when he lost at those games. Course he hit me all the time anyway. Beastly man.

Hey, John, you drunk beast, didn't you invest our money, well, my money mostly, in one of those crazy Linux companies? It isn't this one is it? Our money was all gone a long time ago. I'm going to get you for this John. For everything. I don't care any more. You've ruined my life and I have nothing left but revenge on you.

You watch your back, John Milton, you drunk beastly man. Just when you least expect to see me again...

*bam!*

Last nail in the coffin for linux gaming (2.60 / 5) (#13)
by theboz on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 09:12:59 AM EST

With this, and the fact that tuxracer 1.0 is going to be a closed game with Windows being the primary client, I think linux gaming is screwed. I sure hope you people like xbill and fortune because that's about all you have left.

Stuff.

sdl too (3.00 / 1) (#15)
by John Milton on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 09:22:23 AM EST

It's not just the loss of commercial games either. I believe Loki put a lot of work into libsdl. I'm sure the project will go on, but having commercial support makes a big difference.


"When we consider that woman are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should Treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." -Elizabeth Cady Stanton


[ Parent ]
SDL is interesting (none / 0) (#28)
by spacejack on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 04:42:54 PM EST

If a game developer uses it, they might not need Loki...

[ Parent ]
poll option (4.12 / 8) (#16)
by Speare on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:12:25 AM EST

I think you forgot this poll option:

  • ever since I downloaded Linux for free, I don't feel a need to spend a dime on software anymore

Sure, many think it's great that Linux is free-as-in-speech, but the core market for games (teenage to college boys) have little income and little appreciation for anything but the free-as-in-beer aspect.

It takes money for Loki to buy the licenses for each title they port. It takes money for Loki to develop the software. If much of their core market doesn't pony up disposable cash, how will they stay afloat?
 
[ e d @ h a l l e y . c c ]

Fuck! (1.66 / 3) (#17)
by ucblockhead on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:59:04 AM EST

This really sucks. I guess I'm the only one who bought their games. Quake 3 for Linux rocks.
-----------------------
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
Yep and nope (none / 0) (#22)
by Elroy Windham III on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 02:59:57 PM EST

Yep, it sucks and nope your not the only one. I bought Civilization Call to Power for Linux from them and it was a very nice port. Very slick, very proffesional. Sadly, they need more than the two of us to make a profit.


--Fashion is the window to your soul.
[ Parent ]
There must be quite a few people who bought T2 (none / 0) (#24)
by dgwatson on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 03:53:00 PM EST

I joined a tribe, and found that there was at least one other Linux user in it already - so out of the ten of us, 20% used the Linux version.

Sure, it's probably not representative, but if a small random sample turned up 2 ppl, then there must be quite a few of us out there.

I've also bout about 6 other games from Loki, and am looking forward to Kohan... I hope they survive.

[ Parent ]
/me raises hand (none / 0) (#31)
by coffee17 on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 08:43:15 PM EST

I bought heroes of might and magic 3 ... actually I bought it twice, as I split town once leaving CD's and computers behind. I'd buy other games if they interested me (note, I only bought it after playing the demo).

[ Parent ]
If you liked Heroes 3.. (none / 0) (#32)
by msphil on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 09:04:04 PM EST

...try Kohan. (http://www.lokigames.com/products/kohan/) The demo's already available through loki_demos.

[ Parent ]
thanks for the tip (none / 0) (#40)
by coffee17 on Fri Aug 17, 2001 at 02:41:27 PM EST

I downloaded the demo, but Loki really annoyed me. Previously the demo's were self standing. Now I had to download the update manager, and I'm unsure just how well this will work if I try and install this on my computer at home which has no net connection (my laptop going to and from work is my (high latency) network connection). Hopefully I downloaded everything necessary, but again that's just annoying that I need some 5-10M installer.

[ Parent ]
OK. (none / 0) (#43)
by msphil on Fri Aug 17, 2001 at 06:15:16 PM EST

Download two pieces: loki_demos-1.0e-x86.run, and kohan-demo.run, both from ftp://ftp.lokigames.com/pub/updates/loki_demps

The first one will put loki_uninstall, loki_update, and the loki_demos front-end on your system. Once it's installed, run the second one, and it will attach itself.

(Alternatively, you can use loki_update to accomplish the same.)

FWIW, don't bother with kohan-preview, it's just an MPEG movie and doesn't do the game justice.

[ Parent ]

Missing poll option (3.50 / 4) (#18)
by ColPanic on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 11:08:21 AM EST

I think you missed a poll option:
  • I don't buy them because no that interest me has been ported.
  • I would buy Linux games if they ported games like Monkey Island and Gabriel Knight. And if they came out at the same time as the Wintendos counterparts.

    Microsoft, OSS, and spending money (3.50 / 4) (#19)
    by mcbeth on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 01:46:53 PM EST

    Warning, what follows is mostly a rant.

    The Open Mentality is _not_ what is killing Linux Gaming. People who are truly into the Linux world do not expect to get everything for free. The free mentality comes from the other side. People who never left the Microsoft World. People who have bought the game for Windows and now wants Loki to give away the Linux port for free. People who sit around complaining that if Loki only ever ported X application/game/whatever they would drop Windows. Anyone who has ever looked at the Loki newsgroups knows exactly what I am talking about. Linux has the applications, it has the hardware support, it is ready for the desktop. It has been that way a long time. Nothing in Linux will succeed until people get up the balls to pick one side or the other, and stop straddling the fence.

    End of rant

    If it's not good enough for people to switch... (2.75 / 4) (#20)
    by DeadBaby on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 02:15:59 PM EST

    Wouldn't that obviously mean it wasn't a very good desktop OS?
    "Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us." - Carl Sagan
    [ Parent ]
    You're wrong (3.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Elroy Windham III on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 02:57:05 PM EST

    But thanks for playing anyways. The Linux game market is failing for one reason and one reason only: There is no market. Yep, you can take your little rant and jam it up your bunger pal, because it's just a bunch of hot air. The truth is that there just aren't enough Linux gamers out there to support these companies like Loki. You need big numbers to make money on this stuff and those numbers don't exist. Case closed.


    --Fashion is the window to your soul.
    [ Parent ]
    Repeat (none / 0) (#23)
    by mcbeth on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 03:24:06 PM EST

    Why do you say I am wrong, and then use _my_ argument as proof. The people are there. The people are not Linux people, they are unwilling to wait a couple weeks for a game since they can "just boot into Windows"

    About the big money, yes it is big money, but comparing Loki to any other company is unfair to Loki. They don't need a market the size of Windows, since they are not doing original work. Porting is a bear, but it is much more viable than creation, that is why they did what they did, and will continue to do so.

    [ Parent ]
    Uh....what???? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Elroy Windham III on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 04:42:28 PM EST

    I said there isn't enough Linux users to support them. That means that there isn't a large enough market to sustain a Linux gamer company. Linux is huge on the server end but it's nothing on the desktop end, and even less on the desktop gamer end. That means that the people are not there for them because their people need to be Linux people. Thus there is no market for them.

    I hope this clears things up. Dress Well !!!!!


    --Fashion is the window to your soul.
    [ Parent ]
    True but.. (none / 0) (#29)
    by spacejack on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 05:14:21 PM EST

    There are a few other reasons for porting some games:

    The internet in general has a disproportionate bias towards Linux. i.e., you get free press for it in media outlets that wouldn't touch a story about a Windows game, even if only 5 people will ever take advantage of it.

    Many games require servers. Many games require that the players set up their own servers. A linux port in this case can be quite worthwhile. When I was playing quake, I often played on Linux servers, and they often had the best connection/performance.

    So, can you expect to see lots of Linux games on the shelves at the store? Probably not. Can you expect to get Linux ports, maybe unsupported, maybe released later? I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet. There are still developers who, given the chance, will port it just for the hell of it.

    The other thing to remember is that the PC games market has been a minefield for years. The industry went through a mad startup funding spree in the mid-90's, peaking out with a colossal glut of games in 1997 (and I have the 456-page Xmas issue of PC Gamer to prove it!). And then the bottom dropped out. Since then it's been pretty brutal for all companies, except for Maxis and a few others. In fact I wouldn't be surprised at all if in the time it takes you to read this another 2 or 3 Windows gaming startups have gone down.

    I would say that for many people, the entire PC games market is a stepping stone to the console market.

    [ Parent ]
    chicken and egg (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by ZorbaTHut on Wed Aug 15, 2001 at 04:20:31 AM EST

    People already have picked. They picked Windows. Why? Because it has apps. It has the apps they use. It has better apps.

    For example, Windows has MSVC++6. I've never seen a Linux IDE that does the same thing. Windows also has Adobe Photoshop. The Gimp just plain can't compare - it's good, but it ain't that good.

    The big problem, of course, is that all my Windows software that I use constantly won't run on Linux. Not easily. I'd have to try WINE. I don't know how to set up WINE. And I'm a tech. If my grandma doesn't know how to set something up, it ain't gonna be used.

    It's chicken-and-egg all over the place. Here, I'll link to <a href="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/">someone</a> who knows more than I do. See <a href="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/stories/storyReader$117">here</a> specifically. Chicken And Egg problems. I'll summarize a few important points: PC-DOS was a direct competitor with XENIX and USCD P-System. Haven't heard of the other two? Not surprising. Before those three OS'es, there was only one OS - CP/M. PC-DOS had a CP/M emulation mode, which would flawlessly emulate CP/M software. Sound familiar?

    Anyone ever used Windows 1.0? How about 2.0? I never did. I started on Windows at Windows 3.0. So did everyone else I know. Why? Because Windows 3.0 was the first Windows that could run DOS programs.

    Did you know that Windows 95 has a special memory manager, just for Win3.1 Original SimCity? It does. There's a bug in original SimCity that only shows up on OS'es that moved memory around. It would deallocate and try to access that memory. Splat. They fixed it by setting up Win95 to detect SimCity and use a special allocator for it.

    That's the problem with Linux. There's no software I want! I use IE 5.5 for webbrowsing. Hey, it works. mIRC is adequate for IRC, and while friends have shown me Linux IRC packages on their boxes, nothing has ever looked quite as easy. Outlook Express handles my mail. I don't get viruses and I'm not a moron, so I have no problems there. AIM and ICQ run flawlessly. Winamp does music. I use Photoshop and MSVC++6 for actual projects, and soon, Premiere. How many of these programs exist on Linux?

    Some, yes. How many will work as easily? How many programs can I download and run straight off? How about all my games? Will they all run?

    Chicken and egg . . . until Linux has flawless Windows emulation, I'm not using it for anything but a server OS.

    [ Parent ]
    More fundamental than this (4.50 / 2) (#37)
    by RangerBob on Thu Aug 16, 2001 at 12:45:36 PM EST

    While I agree you, I think that a lot of the problems are far more fundamental than what you've described. Unix's problem is that there are two camps to it. One camp, the one I'm in, thinks that for it to succeed, people should focus on usability issues so that non techs can use it. The other will yell "Bah, you don't need no fancy stuff. If you can't use a command line, you're too dumb to use Unix."

    Both groups want to see Unix succeed for their own reasons. Both will agree that more people should be running Unix systems, but one side still can't let go of their arrogance and actually contribute to this goal. The problem is that the "command line" camp has been around the longest. For example, why don't we have a really good ide? "All a real programmer needs is vi and an assembler." This is starting to turn around, but the current IDE's are still fairly primitive (and Kdevelop still can't stay running for long periods of time). Why do we have the UI of the Gimp? "You should just be smart enough to figure it out."

    And no, I don't want to hear the excuse of "If you want a better interface, code it." People keep throwing this around and it's such a cop out it's not even funny anymore. Put the damned fragile ego's aside and actually think about it for a minute. You want more users, you can make the innards the best running program on the planet, but if you ignore people when they say they can't use it, you're screwed. As an aside, a lot of people I know who will through around the code it excuse couldn't write "Hello World" if you held a gun to their heads.

    Another irony is that companies like RedHat and Mandrake are attacked because they have "pretty GUI shiny things that a real computer user shouldn't need." Yeah, this might be true, but my wife and mom would need them. And what most of us geeks seem to forget is that we're FAR in the minority. So people should quit complaining about not enough users and then turning around and slamming those that try.

    How would geeks feel if they want to a mechanic and were told "Bah, if you don't know how to adjust the timing or replace the serpentine belt, you're too stupid to drive a car." Most geeks I know don't really have a clue about how car engines work since it's not high tech enough. Yet as a group, we turn around and pull the same stunts with people who don't quite understand technology. People should ask themselves if they want the medals of the chests to pin them on. Knowledge in a particular field does not make one better than someone else.

    [ Parent ]
    Open v Free, and hardware support (none / 0) (#45)
    by SlydeRule on Sun Aug 19, 2001 at 01:05:13 PM EST

    The Open Mentality is _not_ what is killing Linux Gaming. People who are truly into the Linux world do not expect to get everything for free.
    From the Necrotic Equine Flagellation department: Open="free as in speech", not "free as in beer". Both considerations are at work here, though. There seem to be a number of Linux users who will not use anything which isn't fully Open Source; some insist on pure GPL.

    Different subject, and now it is my turn to rant:

    Linux has the applications, it has the hardware support, it is ready for the desktop.
    Speaking as someone who is seriously trying to switch to Linux on the desktop, I find myself increasingly annoyed at this kind of arrogant statement. Rather than get off-point, let us consider something relevant to the current topic (Linux gaming).

    Almost all of today's video cards with "gaming level" performance come from nVidia. All of the nVidia chips from the TNT onward use the same driver. You would think that nVidia would have had OpenGL support a long time ago. You would be wrong.

    If you can manage to get it installed, OpenGL with the nVidia driver is "flaky" at best. The worst part is that it often gives a "black screen of death" requiring an emergency reboot.

    And it's not just nVidia which lacks OpenGL support.

    [ Parent ]

    Games (2.50 / 4) (#26)
    by PresJPolk on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 04:12:37 PM EST

    Now we can stop hearing about "Linux gaming" and get back to the *real* games.

    Loki's problem is that they were porting other people's garbage to our pure platform.

    What? (none / 0) (#30)
    by spacejack on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 05:34:51 PM EST

    What's this supposed to mean?

    [ Parent ]
    Loki (none / 0) (#35)
    by PresJPolk on Wed Aug 15, 2001 at 07:59:16 AM EST

    Loki seems like a "nice company" - their support of SDL and their work on OpenAL was interesting. I'm not glad to see the people having trouble.

    What I'm glad for is the end of the endless jabbering about Linux Gaming, and how it differs from Windows Gaming, and the never ending speculation on whether there is a Linux Gaming Market.

    When I count ~30 games in my K menu, when Linux ships with support for console game pads, when SDL thrives as it does, when John Carmack talks about Linux and games, there should be no question of whether it's possible to play games on Linux. The ability is there.

    What is being negleced is that Gaming as a vague concept doesn't exist. It's individual games that exist. 3D graphics don't make a game - see Diablo's success. Internet play doesn't make a game - see Final Fantasy's success.

    Loki's problem is that high quality games are already available on Linux, like Nethack or Freeciv. By porting other people's garbage games to Linux they simply couldn't compete.



    [ Parent ]
    no need for other people's garbage, we have our ow (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Hakamadare on Fri Aug 17, 2001 at 06:09:16 PM EST

    By porting other people's garbage games to Linux they simply couldn't compete.

    hate to break it to you, but most of those ~30 games in your K menu are utter crap. how many more ugly X-windows implementations of Tetris/Sokoban/Jewelbox/Minesweeper/whatever does the world need?

    i'm also amused by your trumpeting of Freeciv as a "high quality linux game". i'm not disputing the quality, but i'd suggest you look at a little game called Sid Meier's Civilisation (or its sequel, Civilisation II, and see if you don't see some subtle similarities between those two commercial games and Freeciv.

    clearly, Loki's mistake was bothering to negotiate porting agreements with game publishing houses; they should simply have ripped off the concept, design, and artwork of existing commercial games like Heavy Gear 2 and Railroad Tycoon, then released "Freegear" and "Freerail" to the linux world.

    what's more, the problem with the appeal to John Carmack's authority as proof that linux game development by commercial firms is thriving is that there is only one John Carmack, and he only runs one game company. what is more, it is a game company that historically releases only one game at a time; hell, you could argue that they only EVER released one game, then kept updating the engine. i know Carmack's word carries a lot of weight in the game design community. i know he writes very good game engines, which he is willing to make available to modders. but here's a little list of the genres of games i consider under-represented among iD's offerings:

    • RPGs
    • flight simulators
    • turn-based strategy
    • real-time strategy
    • world-builder
    • mecha combat
    • driving simulators
    • sports simulators
    • Sierra-style adventure
    • Myst-style adventure
    • modern or historical military sims
    • isometric hack-n-slash/blow-shit-up
    • side-scrolling platform games
    • those moronic fishing/hunting games

    so, uh, yeah. i'm sure glad John Carmack thinks linux is a good gaming platform (rather than just a good game development platform), because he sure has all the bases covered. yeah. Carmack is the Henry Ford of gaming; you can play any game you want, as long as it's Quake 3 (or a derivative).

    i mean, i'm just as annoyed by the endless gusts of hot air about the great glorious endangered Linux Gaming Community, i'm just amazed by your post. you've committed the same error for which you castigate the gaming pundits; simply because you have a ton of crappy open source games (with, admittedly, a very few gems) in your K menu, that doesn't mean that i want to play ANY of them. i don't want to play "Games". right now, for example, i happen to want to play Max Payne. and as long as MY K menu doesn't have Max Payne in it, i couldn't care less what else is there.

    -steve

    wait a second. was this a troll? ah shit...
    ---
    Schopenhauer is not featuring heavily on the "Review Hidden Comments" page at the moment. - Herring
    [ Parent ]

    Max Payne (none / 0) (#44)
    by PresJPolk on Sat Aug 18, 2001 at 11:19:33 AM EST

    Whatever game that is, is Loki porting it? If not, it's pretty irrelevant.

    [ Parent ]
    rumored back in LWE in NYC.... (none / 0) (#33)
    by argent on Tue Aug 14, 2001 at 10:14:26 PM EST

    I was at LWE in NYC, and went looking for the Loki booth in the expo hall, wanting to see if they had a demo of Dues Ex running.

    I was surprised to see they had one, teeny tiny little kiosk in the AMD section with one PC running the Q3a demo, and barely any literature and no reps to be found. I asked one of the AMD reps if there was anyone from Loki around, and was told, "No, they aren't having a large presence this year. They may be going out of buisness."

    Dammed, if it wasn't a bit prophetic.

    argent

    Gaming (none / 0) (#36)
    by slakhead on Wed Aug 15, 2001 at 05:27:43 PM EST

    I don't do much gaming but when I do, I play either War Craft 2, Starcraft, or Counter strike.

    I am aware a clone of the first game exists, the second game plays through wine with little difficulty, and looking at loki's page, I see no occurance of half life which is the only game I would buy (for linux).

    So is the problem the lack of people willing to spend the money or the lack of selection. Not that Loki hasn't done some good work but I just haven't had a reason to purchase one of their products yet.



    "other" (none / 0) (#39)
    by doviende on Fri Aug 17, 2001 at 12:40:15 PM EST

    the game i play most often is nethack. it seems that most of the new games that come out are crazy about graphics, but have little game play. There are a lot of them that i might play for a week, and then i've done pretty much all there is to do.

    With Nethack (or Slashem), there's so much to do that you can play it for years and still not be an expert at it. or even if you are an expert, it's still challenging.

    plus, on the graphics end of things, there are people working on pretty graphics for nethack too. Check out Falcon's Eye, which is nethack with fancy 3d graphics, sorta like what Diablo should have been.



    Loki Files Chapter 11 | 46 comments (41 topical, 5 editorial, 0 hidden)
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