Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
ReOS: Another K5-inspired Project

By Arkady in News
Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 12:36:43 AM EST
Tags: Software (all tags)
Software

As readers may know, the OpenNIC got its start from an article and its discussion here on K5. I'm happy to say that I've just released the alpha version of a software project which will be distributed and managed based on another article.


ReOS (or here, for non-OpenNIC browsers) is not, I would guess, in itself going to be particularly interesting to the majority of readers here, since it's a BeOS program and the core of a new Linux-style distribution being built from the free Personal Edition of BeOS and the Open Source replacement components as they're written. To my knowledge, there are only a few of us here on K5 who use BeOS.

Of more interest is the ownership and business model involved, which is based directly on the article titled Collective Patronage published here a year ago. Now we'll have a chance to see how the comparisons I made against the commercial and Open Source/Free Software models actually play out in a real test.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Related Links
o OpenNIC
o article and its discussion
o another article
o ReOS
o here
o Collective Patronage
o Also by Arkady


Display: Sort:
ReOS: Another K5-inspired Project | 42 comments (25 topical, 17 editorial, 0 hidden)
OpenNIC (none / 0) (#4)
by krogoth on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 06:46:51 PM EST

Responding to a previous comment with an additional rant:

OpenNIC is an alternate DNS system that can be used alongside normal DNS. It provides new top-level domains with a democratic management. They do not replace current TLDs (they have a list of which other TLDs they respect). They are also committed to completely ignoring anyone not actually using OpenNIC, which is why I am unable to (thanks to the author for posting a link for us people who weren't able to set up OpenNIC alone).
--
"If you've never removed your pants and climbed into a tree to swear drunkenly at stuck-up rich kids, I highly recommend it."
:wq
ignoring? (4.00 / 1) (#6)
by Arkady on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 06:49:13 PM EST

How'd you get ignored?

(I'm kinda anxious to know, since I'm a Hostmaster for one of OpenNIC's TLDs and operate the mailing lists and web sites. If anyone ignored you, it was probably _me_ and I certainly didn't mean to.)

-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Not even a chance to ignore me.... (4.00 / 1) (#9)
by krogoth on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 07:00:48 PM EST

I only found one place that I could actually contact another person without using OpenNIC. It didn't look like the right place, but since it was all I could find, I sent an email and got no reply.
--
"If you've never removed your pants and climbed into a tree to swear drunkenly at stuck-up rich kids, I highly recommend it."
:wq
[ Parent ]
weird (none / 0) (#10)
by Arkady on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 07:06:25 PM EST

All the contact links on the OpenNIC site have noth opennic.glue and opennic.unrated.net addresses (both web and email).

Is it possible that you were looking at opennic.com|net|org and not at the actual OpenNIC site at www.opennic.unrated.net?

(I'm not impugning your savvyness; I'm just confused.)

-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
I was on the right site (none / 0) (#16)
by krogoth on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 07:43:40 PM EST

In fact, I find an address that used a "legacy" domain name. As I said, it was probably the only way I could contact anyone without being on OpenNIC, and I got no reply.
--
"If you've never removed your pants and climbed into a tree to swear drunkenly at stuck-up rich kids, I highly recommend it."
:wq
[ Parent ]
hate to contradict you (none / 0) (#31)
by janra on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 02:10:10 AM EST

...since you're the webmaster and all, but:

On the 'Contact' page at www.opennic.unrated.net there are 9 email address links that I noticed, only one of which goes to a legacy domain. I'm not going to count up all the links on the other pages, but since this one is where most people would look to try to contact you (oddly enough ;-) I figured it was worth mentioning.

I've sent email to that one legacy email address before, and it took a very long time to get a response. You've mentioned a few times on the mailing list how insanely full your inbox is; you might want to mention that on the contact page as well, and suggest someone subscribe to the discuss list if they want to get your attention. That seems to be easier, faster, and more reliable than contacting you privately. :-)

PS: I completely forgot about 5sight.oss after I saw the first announcement, and you never emailed to have it added to the search list! It's in the list now, and will be crawled at the next scheduled update (1st of the month; I finally got the damn thing scripted and in cron.)


--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.
[ Parent ]
you're right (none / 0) (#37)
by Arkady on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 01:15:23 PM EST

I just checked; there is only one. Damn.

OK, first priorite (after I get this morning's issues from the ReOS release dealt with) is an email to the OpenNIC list asking for volunteers to take over some of the stuff I've been failing to deal with in a timely fashion.

Sorry about that, and thanks for adding 5Sight to the search list.

-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Question (3.00 / 1) (#14)
by dennis on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 07:35:09 PM EST

Is there still a place to get BeOS Personal?

yup (4.00 / 2) (#17)
by Arkady on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 08:02:08 PM EST

It's here on BeBits.

Cheers,
-robin


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Yes, it's on bebits.com (4.00 / 1) (#18)
by BlowCat on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 08:04:19 PM EST

http://bebits.com/app/2680

[ Parent ]
can you change the name of the project? (3.66 / 3) (#19)
by Estanislao Martínez on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 08:07:28 PM EST

"Reos" in Spanish means "prisoners".

--em

how about (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by zephc on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 09:31:01 PM EST

SerOS or EstarOS? =]

[ Parent ]
Kinda offtopic here (none / 0) (#21)
by DesiredUsername on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 08:12:32 PM EST

There was a comment the other day that mentioned OpenNIC. I was interested and followed it. I setup my local caching DNS server to point to it. Then I tried to sign up as a member so I could register a cool .geek domain. It wouldn't accept any email address I gave it as valid. After about 10 attempts I emailed the help address. The mail is still sitting in my outbound queue because of resolution/mail-server problems.

What up? Is OpenNIC alive or dead?

Play 囲碁

Ran into this myself, over a year ago........ (none / 0) (#32)
by LordEq on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 04:26:31 AM EST

I setup my local caching DNS server to point to it...
It wouldn't accept any email address I gave it as valid...
resolution/mail-server problems.

Are you running your own mail transport agent, or are you relying on your ISP's SMTP server(s)?  Your ISP's mail servers will be using your ISP's DNS servers to resolve names.  More than likely, your ISP's servers only recognize the conventional DNS system.

In order to send mail to addresses on OpenNIC domains, the mail server must query a DNS server that can resolve OpenNIC domain names.  Since your caching DNS server is aware of OpenNIC, anything that uses it to resolve names (like, say, an MTA somewhere on your network) can send mail to OpenNIC domains.

Did this make any sense at all?  It's 0300 here, and I'm very tired and probably a bit incoherent.  If I'm writing gibberish (or factually off base), someone please correct me.  But I hope that this is at least slightly helpful.



--LordEq

"That's what K5's about. Hippies and narcs cavorting together." --panck
[ Parent ]
My own (none / 0) (#33)
by DesiredUsername on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 08:16:13 AM EST

In any case, that doesn't explain OpenNIC rejecting my address on the form itself.

Play 囲碁
[ Parent ]
try again? (none / 0) (#38)
by Arkady on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 01:19:33 PM EST

We have an intermittent problem on the web server with MySQL running away, taking out the membeship form (since it needs to talk to the database) and the membership email system.

Perhaps that's what blocked you? (It crops up about twice a month.)

-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Maybe, but it is still happening (none / 0) (#41)
by DesiredUsername on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 02:09:34 PM EST

There was a problem with the email address you entered: XXXXXXX@yahoo.com

Error: Address rejected by mail server.

Please enter another email address.

I've replaced my real address with X's, the @yahoo.com part is right. My mail to hostmaster@opennic.glue is still sitting in the outbound queue.

Is there a way to register without the stupid form?

Play 囲碁
[ Parent ]

first thing (none / 0) (#42)
by Arkady on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 02:25:04 PM EST

Can you either post here (or email me directly) the URL of the form you're using and the email address you're putting in that it's rejecting?

If I can't figure out why it's rejecting you and straighten it out, I'll put your registration into the database by hand.

-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
Cool! (none / 0) (#26)
by regeya on Wed Feb 27, 2002 at 10:04:45 PM EST

BeOS was a great OS, and while I'm hopeful for projects like BlueOS, this sounds like a great way to go: replace parts as they become available.

You may manage to get me to switch to BeOS yet. If nothing else, I'll set up an unused partition to install.

Slightly offtopic question, from someone who lost all interest in coding ever again long ago :-}: would it be possible to use GNUstep, along with knowledge from Darwin, to write a compatibility layer for OS X apps? I know it'd be ambitious (though perhaps not as ambitious as, say, WINE) but I know a number of people who'd like a nice, light interface rather than the current crop of bloat, if the apps were available.


[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]

Yes (4.50 / 2) (#30)
by DJBongHit on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 12:53:00 AM EST

Slightly offtopic question, from someone who lost all interest in coding ever again long ago :-}: would it be possible to use GNUstep, along with knowledge from Darwin, to write a compatibility layer for OS X apps?

Binary compatibility is another matter, but porting from OS X to GNUStep (and vice-versa) usually takes little more than a recompile (well, that's not true, since Apple's resource format is different than GNUStep's, but converters exist). The APIs are nearly identical, except for Apple's relatively few additions and GNUStep's slightly more common unfinished parts.

~DJBongHit

--
GNU GPL: Free as in herpes.

[ Parent ]
BeOS: Great technical system, bad marketing (none / 0) (#34)
by Ghost Shrew on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 10:22:03 AM EST

I really love BeOS, but the apps just weren't there when I tried it. Now that I have an income and a multi-processor system, this seems like something that would be "hella cool"

Unfortunately, Be took an elitist stance with their OS. They were very closed about many things, and chose to have their product run on a tiny market segment(Macs) from the start. By the time the Intel version was released, it was fairly mature, but they still didn't have very many applications. And I, for one, was unable to really use it for much. It was a toy OS for me, and I wish it could have been more.

Will this duplicate Be's excellent multiprocessor support? That was its biggest advantage, as I recall. But I thought it was closed source. And if it can be duplicated easily, then why hasn't anyone else been using it? I'm just not sure if this can work, but I'll keep an eye on it nonetheless.


Free tabletop RPG!! Grey Lotus

If you think that's elitist... (4.00 / 2) (#36)
by BeBoxer on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 11:20:49 AM EST

Ha ha ha. You think the Mac-only stage was elitist? Before then you had to buy a ~$3000 BeBox to run the OS. Now that was elitist. Trust me, I own one. And when I got it, I thought I was the shit. At the time, they saw SMP as the future and no one was making consumer level MP systems. I think the jump to Mac's was prompted in part by the MP Mac's and the clones. Then Apple killed the clones and stopped providing Be with the docs they wanted about the hardware. At that point, Be's hardware development didn't exist any more, so they jumped ship to x86.

The multiprocessor support has more to do with the API than the kernel itself. The BeOS API's are implemented in a heavily threaded manner. Most modern GUI API's are based upon a message loop. In the BeOS, this is implemented in a class named BLooper, which runs in it's own thread. Every window your app creates has it's own BLooper to manage the events and redraws in that window. So every app with a window is automatically multithreaded, although the initial thread might not do much of anything once the program is running since most apps have the window threads to most if not all of the work. But since this project is using the Be libraries, it will keep the multithreaded aspect of the OS.

Linux or BSD kernels are quite capable of supporting lots of threads. It's just that most X-based API's don't bother.

[ Parent ]

actually (none / 0) (#39)
by Arkady on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 01:28:01 PM EST

This project is more a system for merging in the parts being created by other projects, so no _I_ won't personally being doing anything about MP myself. ;-)

The OpenBeOS Project, which is the largest group writing replacement components, is using the NewOS kernel (which was created by a former Be kernel hacker, if I remember correctly), so their stuff is "pervasive multi-threading" as well.

Since their goal is binary compatibility, they're looking at basically as exact a copy of BeOS 5.0.3 as possible.

-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
I'm not sure this is the best approach (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by BeBoxer on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 11:03:27 AM EST

It seems to me that trying to reimplement BeOS as an open source project may not be the best approach. I guess it really depends on what the developer's goals are.

To me, the desire is to keep using the Be APIs, which I have become pretty familiar with and like. There are a number of features, such as the filesystem and indexed attributes, which I really like. But there are also a number of things about BeOS I'm not too thrilled with. Specifically, poor hardware support. It was never great when the OS was being actively developed by Be, and it is never going to get better.

All of the projects which are trying to keep BeOS alive as an independant OS will eventually have to tackle the harware problem. They need a kernel. And trying to write one from scratch is a loosing proposition at this point. There is a certain critical mass that needs to be attained before you can support enough hardware to be useful to a general population.

I think a better approach would be to use an existing base for the really hard parts, and build on that. Leverage the Linux kernel and XFree86 to get you good actively developed hardware support. Then start layering BeOS-like systems on top of that. Don't worry about keeping it GNU/Linux compable, or LSB compliant. Most of the Linux startup and runtime could be dropped over time as BeOS-like replacements fall into place. Even /sbin/init can be cleanly replaced by simply passing the right arguments to LILO. The fact that the system is Linux-based could eventually be invisible to the user except during the first few seconds of the boot process.

The difference between the two approaches is that one has you working on an OS whose hardware support is rapidly falling behind, while the other lets you work on the fun parts (the MediaKit, ApplicationKit, etc.) while leveraging hardware support work that others are doing. From what I've heard, all the keep-BeOS-alive projects are taking the first approach which I think is a dead end. Is anyone trying the second approach?

An interesting hybrid might be to try and get the low-levels of the OS replaced while maintaining binary-compatability with existing applications ala Wine. I haven't looked closely, but there must be a pretty robust hardware abstraction layer at the bottom of the OS to allow the x86 and PPC ports to co-exist as well as they did. If the code underneath that layer could be replaced with a Linux kernel, hardware compatability should be dramatically increased while providing a usable OS without re-writing the ApplicationKit (which would be a lot of work.) I wonder if anyone has investigated this approach.

hardware support (none / 0) (#40)
by Arkady on Thu Feb 28, 2002 at 01:31:57 PM EST

First, they _have_ a kernel. The OpenBeOS project is building up from the NewOS kernel, so they don't have to re-write that. The lowest leyer thay have to get involved in is the server layer.

One of the points to writing the ReOS Manager is to make it easy for developers to distribute drivers, and easy for users to install them. This will hopefully encourage folks who might not otherwise get involved with or use the OS to do so.

I also get _really_ annoyed at the small range of supported hardware involved in BeOS, but unlike your interpretation I anticipate that it will improve as more of the OS is replaced with open sourced components. Only time will tell, really.

-robin

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world.


[ Parent ]
ReOS: Another K5-inspired Project | 42 comments (25 topical, 17 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!