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[P]
City planners strike back

By martman in News
Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 05:34:35 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

In the lead-up to the 2008 Olympic games to be held in Beijing city officials have ordered McDonald's to tear down 30 of its street signs: the famous golden arches.


The impetus for this decision was provided by the approaching 2008 Beijing Olympics and presumably a desire to make the city more pleasant to visitors. An article in the Sydney Morning Herald has some details.

A Beijing city official was quoted in the South China Morning Post as saying "Some very large (signboards) are not in harmony with the surroundings and affect the architectural ambience". He went on to say that the big advertising sting extended to businesses other than McDonald's.

According to the article the first of the arches to be removed was demolished on Wednesday. The sign was 10 metres high.

Though I appreciate a company's interest to advertise themselves to obtain better consumer recognition I really like the idea of cities taking an active role in deciding when advertising has become obtrusive and detracts from the city environment. I wonder how far this sort of thing would get in a country where the government isn't as powerful, though.

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City planners strike back | 48 comments (41 topical, 7 editorial, 0 hidden)
"architectural ambience" is one possibil (4.28 / 7) (#2)
by Delirium on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 02:44:52 AM EST

Another possibility is that for political reasons China doesn't want a large American business to be featured prominently in television shots of Beijing.

We have bastard city planners too... (3.57 / 7) (#3)
by 90X Double Side on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 02:48:26 AM EST

I wonder how far this sort of thing would get in a country where the government isn't as powerful, though.

This brings to mind the incident the Apple Store in Germantown had where Apple was not allowed to put its logo on its sign as it does in every other city because Germantown prohibits signs that contain "images of food items" (the city even denied Apple's appeal for a variance).

The difference between free states and China lies not in the tearing down of advertisements, but in the tearing down of monasteries and churches.

“Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity”
—Alvy Ray Smith

Do mosques count too? (2.60 / 5) (#10)
by StrontiumDog on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 05:24:54 AM EST

The difference between free states and China lies not in the tearing down of advertisements, but in the tearing down of monasteries and churches.

Or does a state cease being free only when it tears down churches and monasteries, but not when it directly destroys, and indirectly finances the destruction of, mosques, while at the same time demonizing moslems with a verve the Chinese are hard-pressed to match?

[ Parent ]

Wake Up (5.00 / 1) (#24)
by 90X Double Side on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 12:28:32 PM EST

Or does a state cease being free only when it tears down churches and monasteries, but not when it directly destroys, and indirectly finances the destruction of, mosques, while at the same time demonizing moslems with a verve the Chinese are hard-pressed to match?

You think the Chinese are hard-pressed to match our government's demonization of the middle east? The Chinese exhibited a Naziesque level of demonization of other cultures during the 60s, and have relented little. You also clearly have very little experience classifying states as free or not free; yes, it is a very complicated process and none are perfect (such is the nature of government: a purely democratic system would fail to provide freedom, a purely communist system would fail to provide freedom, same with capitalism v. socialism, etc.), but the US and the EU countries (though imperfect) are not only free but are the most free places in the world right now (the US is rated PR=1 CL=1, the best score possible, whereas China as a whole is rated PR=7 CL=6, and Tibet is rated PR=7 CL=7, the lowest possible level of freedom). I think it is commendable that people in the US and EU realize how horrible the things our governments are doing right now are; this is the only way to preserve our freedom, but I find it shocking how ignorant many westerners are of the situation in non-free states.

“Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity”
—Alvy Ray Smith
[ Parent ]

Awake. (4.00 / 1) (#46)
by StrontiumDog on Sat Mar 02, 2002 at 10:43:44 AM EST

but the US and the EU countries (though imperfect) are not only free but are the most free places in the world right now

I don't know how the Freedom House people define freedom, and I have the impression that they pulled their freedom indices out of their asses, because the incarceration rate of the US exceeds that of every other country, save Russia, but including China. Phrase it how you will, the chance that you will end up behind bars, or executed by the State, in the US is greater than in China or Cuba.

but I find it shocking how ignorant many westerners are of the situation in non-free states.

So do I. I have actually lived in a number of the states rated very low on the Freedom House's index, and I am astounded every day at the total lack of grasp on reality which such Western (often American) "freedom watchers" display.

Here's a hint: all these third-worlders leaving their countries to live in the US are doind so out of economic motives, not out of a desire for greater freedom. The dollar trumps geek freedom, every time, every place.

[ Parent ]

You are so full of it (none / 0) (#35)
by Stickerboy on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 02:59:18 PM EST

A few quotes by a scholar who is in a much better position to judge the actions of government than you are:

Kenyan-born Mazrui is the Albert Schweitzer professor in humanities and director of the Institute of Global Cultural Studies at Binghamton University, State University of New York, and a professor and senior scholar in African studies at Cornell University. He was also the producer and narrator of the award-winning 1986 television series "The Africans: A Triple Heritage." He serves on the board of directors of the American Muslim Council, the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy, and the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University.

He said: "I think the federal government has behaved very well because of the danger of harassment of Muslims and Arabs, some of which is already occurring, even here on our campus among students. It is very important to provide leadership to the American people to make sure people don't start embarrassing or actually hurting people who belong to a particular religion simply because we are angry at a particular member of that religion."

The full article.

And here's something about the federal government and its effort to crackdown on retaliatory hate crimes against Muslims in the US:

The full article.

Quotes: U.S. President George W. Bush visited a mosque on September 17 to urge that Muslim Americans be treated with respect after the terrorist attacks against U.S. targets, saying, "The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam."

Slipping off his shoes to respect Islamic custom, Bush sought to quell a surge of anti-Muslim incidents following the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, which left more than 5,000 missing or dead.

[...]

The visit was part of a broad government effort to crack down on what the FBI said were dozens of "retaliatory hate crimes" aimed at Arab Americans, including assaults, threats, arson and two possibly ethnically motivated murders.

FBI Director Robert Mueller said the government had opened 40 hate crime investigations in six days since the plane attacks. "Vigilante attacks and threats against Arab-Americans will not be tolerated," he said.

> This from the Middle East Times. I'll stop before my evidence against your arguments run 20+ pages.

[ Parent ]
Actually, I'm surprised Apple didn't sue... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
by bobaloo on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 02:11:22 PM EST

Because, as a city planner myself, I can tell you that cities are not allowed to regulate the content of advertising, only the "time, place and manner", due to what little remains in this country of the first amendment.

This means that you can't for example have one set of rules for real estate signs and another for doctors offices, you can't allow signs for one type of business but not another. You CAN regulate how large they are, what they're made of, where they can be placed, etc.

Telling a company what type of image they can put on their sign clearly goes beyond what is allowed. On the other hand, as an attorney, I also know better than to made a judgment based on what I read in the paper, so it's entirely possible that there's more to the case than the one-sentence summary posted here...

[ Parent ]

China (4.00 / 10) (#4)
by zephc on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 03:11:00 AM EST

yeah, I used to like China, but it's become too commercial
=P

True, true... (4.00 / 1) (#43)
by martman on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 08:00:19 PM EST

China has become very commercial, but i kind of see it as a Good Thing. After all, it means that they've opened their doors for trade, the people are enjoying a free market economy (i'm no economist, but seemed to be working well when i was there) and by extension, more comfortable lives. There's lot of foreign investment and movement of money.

The trade-off is that we're losing a lot of that heritage architecture and culture as foreign investment leads to redevelopment. I was in Shanghai 8 years ago and 3 years ago. In those 5 years they destroyed and rebuilt almost half the city, and built 3 massive 'ring roads' (elevated freeways that form concentric circles around the city). In Shanghai at least, most of the old has been lost. I understand, however, that they're more keen on preserving Beijing, since the tourists who go there are generally there to check out the ancient sites.

"Everybody wants to save the earth; nobody wants to help Mom do the dishes."
--P. J. O'Rourke

[ Parent ]
advertising in beijing (3.33 / 6) (#7)
by martman on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 03:44:29 AM EST

found something of interest: a page with images of public advertising in beijing (Public in the sense that it is owned by the state). These things seem fairly large as well, and certainly don't seem to add too much to the 'ambience' of the city. The advertisements themselves are interesting, as well as demonstrating (if they're still there; page dates them 1998) something of a double-standard. It would be very interesting to see a list of companies who have been asked to remove or alter advertisements. There might be a pattern to the selection.

"Everybody wants to save the earth; nobody wants to help Mom do the dishes."
--P. J. O'Rourke

I don't mind (4.33 / 6) (#8)
by Nickus on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 05:03:59 AM EST

A lot of commercial signs really disturbs the city view. I live in a German city called Dresden which has a lot of beutiful architecture. The houses are really nice but IMHO a McDonald sign doesn't do much improvment to the building. I've never been to Beijing but I guess that the city planners have a point, the McDonalds archs doesn't really fit into the city view.

Anyway, one good thing about this article is that I know where to go for lunch. Two BigMacs for the price of one :-).



Due to budget cuts, light at end of tunnel will be out. --Unknown
City planning is a priori (4.33 / 3) (#14)
by bobpence on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 09:23:09 AM EST

The problem is not city planning, it is a failure to have a plan in place before the signs went up.

Dresden, Germany, obviously has zoning laws that limit outdoor advertising, and much of it is on the building themselves, rather than free-standing signs. For instance, one can see the Elbe-Park outdoor mall from the Autobahn, and can identify the home store there because they can see the signs on the building. The Burger King that is a major tenant of the Bahnhof (train station) has only a small sign outside, again on the building itself.

Hsinchu, Taiwan, on the other hand, gives almost no evidence of any zoning laws at all. Ads are everywhere, blocking sidewalks, distracting from traffic lights. Clearly, however, the KFC's signs are not haphazard, and would not likely be targeted in some general crackdown on outdoor advertising.

The U.S. represents a middle ground. Roadside advertisements for businesses miles way exist, as do high signs for businesses right off the highway. But these are regulated by zoning laws that try to balance the need of businesses to attract customers with the view of nearby residents.

China should not arbitrarily take down signs that were previously approved without making concessions that allow these businesses to advertise.
"Interesting. No wait, the other thing: tedious." - Bender
[ Parent ]

why not? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
by alprazolam on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 01:39:18 PM EST

China should not arbitrarily take down signs that were previously approved without making concessions that allow these businesses to advertise.

If Chinese leaders can make decisions that benefit them politically, without costing businesses more money than they can afford based on the potection for large profits...they should remove the signs. It's a sound decision. If on the other hand it drives away billions of foreign capital investment dollars (not likely) they shouldn't do it.

[ Parent ]

Missing Poll Option (4.00 / 7) (#9)
by snowlion on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 05:19:44 AM EST

Massive advertisements are...

  • unavoidable
  • tolerable
  • a thing of beauty
  • destructible

--
Map Your Thoughts
Destructible (4.00 / 1) (#39)
by drivers on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 07:02:21 PM EST

I thought it would be cool to build a small robot that could go up a billboard and paint it over. Or perhaps, just modify it for the purpose of culture jamming. I wouldn't want to do it physically like the billboard liberation front does.

[ Parent ]
During the Salt Lake Olympics (4.00 / 3) (#12)
by wiredog on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 08:12:21 AM EST

The Delta Center was temporarily renamed "Salt Lake Ice Arena"

Peoples Front To Reunite Gondwanaland: "Stop the Laurasian Separatist Movement!"
interesting (5.00 / 2) (#26)
by Delirium on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 01:15:11 PM EST

I wonder if that's written into contracts. "You pay us $x million for the naming rights to this facility, with the exception that we don't have to use your name for it during the Olympics."

[ Parent ]
Hypocrisy.... (4.50 / 4) (#13)
by Elkor on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 08:37:59 AM EST

The thing that gets me is that, at some point, McDonalds paid perfectly good money/bribes to get their advertising approved.

Now they are being told "Hey, we changed our mind."

I'll bet a nickel(US) that come 2007 we start seeing advertising pop up for "Olympic Sponsors" in the same locations these ads are now.

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
That's the problem with bribes... (4.50 / 2) (#19)
by J'raxis on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 11:27:34 AM EST

That’s the problem with bribes; if the receiver backs out, to whom exactly do you complain? “I tried to commit a crime and he double-crossed me!”

— The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]
[ Parent ]

Exactly.... (4.50 / 2) (#20)
by Elkor on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 11:29:21 AM EST

Politicians these days don't stay bought.

It's almost like they come with their own shrink wrapped EULA subject to change without notice....

Hey.....

So THAT is why the DMCA got passed..... Motivated self interest.

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
Show your support! (2.60 / 10) (#15)
by jabber on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 09:27:03 AM EST

In honor of the 2004 and 2008 Olympics, I propose a petition to have all McDonald's signage, and all their restaurants, and one's like them, torn down.. The world will be a better place for it..

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"

support? (4.00 / 3) (#22)
by klamath on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 11:46:13 AM EST

In honor of the 2004 and 2008 Olympics, I propose a petition to have all McDonald's signage, and all their restaurants, and one's like them, torn down
What about the support of the literally millions of people who eat at McDonalds every day? The only reason that there are McDonalds in the first place is that a large number of consumers like them: and as soon as this changes, McDonalds will no longer be in business.
The world will be a better place for it
I bet those millions of people would disagree. If you don't like McDonalds, don't eat their and convince others to do the same -- if you can.

Your disregard for the preferences of others is shocking; maybe you think that no McDonalds would make the world a better place, but that gives you no right to force this opinion on others -- not to mention the ethical problems with arbitrarily restricting McDonalds from selling a product that people are willing to buy.

[ Parent ]

One of two possibilities (2.50 / 4) (#23)
by jabber on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 12:11:08 PM EST

Either you're one of those bleeding heart, terminally politically correct, "hug my inner child" liberal feel-good "why can't we all just get along" freaks, or you're an ignorant and unskilled troll..

/me flips a coin..

Hmm, just as I thought.. ;)

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

no... (4.50 / 2) (#33)
by klamath on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 02:52:58 PM EST

Either you're one of those bleeding heart, terminally politically correct, "hug my inner child" liberal feel-good "why can't we all just get along" freaks, or you're an ignorant and unskilled troll..
You appear to be uninformed in this regard, as well. For the record, I'm a free-market libertarian, and I'm definately not a PC thug. As for being a troll, is that the technical term for someone who disagrees with you?

I'd be much more interested in a response that actually addressed my arguments. If you're not going to do that, why waste your time and mine?

[ Parent ]

Very well (1.00 / 1) (#36)
by jabber on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 03:26:18 PM EST

Allow me to introduce the hyperbole, which is what my post, mocking the idea of tearing down Golden Arches, was. The point of my post being that, if aesthetics are so important, those billboards should have not been permitted in the first place.

Your response seemed equally exaggerated in it's apparently serious consideration of my completely nonsensical proposal. How can anyone seriously propose the obliteration of the entire fast food industry, after all?

So my subsequent response to was turn up the idiocy another notch and jokingly make a completely stupid personal attack against you in response to what I percieved as feigned seriousness.

I apologize for having misled you into believing that I would actually advocate the complete uprooting of the McDonald's franchise. I'm sorry you take such sweeping statements so seriously, and wish you good fortune in your future battles with windmills.

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

meh (5.00 / 2) (#40)
by garlic on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 07:13:15 PM EST

you forgot your sarcasm/irony tags. There are people who would propose exactly what you did, read the rest of the comments on this article.

HUSI challenge: post 4 troll diaries on husi without being outed as a Kuron, or having the diaries deleted or moved by admins.
[ Parent ]

trolling (3.00 / 1) (#42)
by martman on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 07:51:40 PM EST

Oh, I thought you were the troll! My mistake, i guess... ;)

"Everybody wants to save the earth; nobody wants to help Mom do the dishes."
--P. J. O'Rourke

[ Parent ]
NYC should follow the example (4.33 / 3) (#16)
by myshka on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 09:35:20 AM EST

It would be great if NYC made the same decision regarding the awful ad-scaffolding erected all over Broadway below City Hall. Beyond ruining the facades of some fairly nice buildings in the area, the scaffolding is an extrme nuisance given the vast amount of pedestrian traffic on Broadway. The sidewalks are barely able to handle the crowds without having their capacity halved by tons of metal tubing.

I understand the need the city has to boost revenues, especially in the aftermath of 9/11, but I would rather live with extra taxes than suffer through the metal jungle on every lunch break.

I don't agree (3.00 / 1) (#44)
by Sc00tz on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 08:08:02 PM EST

While I respect your point, and totally understand it.. One of the things that makes New York New York is those adverts.. and I must say, after going there, I was in awe of the size of the ads, and I found it quite amazing.
-- http://scootz.net/~travis
[ Parent ]
Not the Tokyo-style ones (4.00 / 1) (#45)
by myshka on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 08:25:54 PM EST

I'm not sure we're talking about the same ads here. I don't really mind the Times Square neo-Tokyo style screens. As a matter of fact, they provide for a pretty cool futuristic look - a post-modern consumerist hell/heaven type of thing. I was bitching about the unsightly scaffolding downtown, some of it with ads, some of it empty waiting for a buyer. It's like walking around an abandoned construction site.

[ Parent ]
advertising not always necessary.... (2.50 / 4) (#17)
by jeffy124 on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 11:05:37 AM EST

i know that near me, there's a McD's that does not have street side arches, and yet doess quite well. Of course, it's across the street from a set of university dorms, but it does show that it's possible for advertisers to not do everything and still make good business. If people know it's there, they'll go there regardless of the sign by the road. Hence i dont think the McD's in Beijing are going to see a slip in business or anything.
--
You're the straw that broke the camel's back!
Hungry (3.50 / 2) (#21)
by inerte on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 11:43:43 AM EST

Maybe those who already decided to go to Mac. But a lot of people are simple hungry while driving their car, and a big sign "Hey we got hamburguers" influence their decision, a lot.

Also, with TV and magazine, Mac's power do come from advertising. The golden arch is a complement, and truly necessary for marketing (I know because I have studied Advertising for two years, and Mac is an example of how to do things the right way).

[ Parent ]
This is nothing new (3.00 / 1) (#27)
by hardcorejon on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 01:27:45 PM EST

I'm voting this story a -1 because it is really nothing new. Practically every city has signage laws, some of them more restrictive, some of them less restrictive.

I've lived in cities that had laws against any signs taller than the building they were attached to. This made it (1) a very calm, commercial-free stroll through downtown areas, but (2) very difficult to find damn near anything unless you already knew exactly where it was.

Just my $0.02,

- jonathan.

Ever been to Hong Kong? (3.50 / 2) (#29)
by mazachan on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 01:39:30 PM EST

I think advertisements and billboards make up the HK scenery.. if you removed them I think it would actually be detrimental. But I think that is a special case. In a suburb of Chicago (Lake Forest to be exact. Very rich community), McDonalds wanted to open up a restaurant there. The city wouldn't let them because they thought the golden arches were too ugly. After about 2 years of legal wrangling, they finally were allowed to open up a restaurant there, on the condition that it would be tasteful and not disruptive to the environment. And so they did. They were able to open it without the big arches and AFAIK, they are doing rather well.

Agree (3.00 / 1) (#41)
by martman on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 07:47:25 PM EST

That's true. I have been to HK (couple of times last year), and even though I've never been there in person I'd say the same might be true of Japan's larger cities (eg. Tokyo). The glut of advertisements play a large part in these cities' characters.

I'd say that the reasoning on the part of the Beijing city officials would have been that the larger McDonalds advertisements would have dominated the landscape too much, much the same i suppose as in the Lake Forest situation you describe. Large parts of Beijing, unlike most other chinese cities, have been undeveloped and feature very old architecture. There aren't a lot of modern buildings or large advertisements in the inner city since it's such a tourist destination.

"Everybody wants to save the earth; nobody wants to help Mom do the dishes."
--P. J. O'Rourke

[ Parent ]
Yeah, but... (3.00 / 1) (#47)
by spreerpg on Sun Mar 03, 2002 at 12:20:18 AM EST

That McDonalds is actually rather tastless, though I must admit it is the best looking one I've ever seen. Actually I think a large part of it is the fact that is a fast food place. It was a shame to see the city finally give in and let them in, even with the restrictions put on McDonalds.

And, if you don't mind my asking, do I know you? I too live in that general area and attend Lake Forest High School.



---
You can kill me, but you can't eat me!
[ Parent ]
I'm a Loy boy.. (none / 0) (#48)
by mazachan on Sun Mar 03, 2002 at 10:41:53 PM EST

Actually I went to school at Loyola Academy.. graduated '95. I don't live around there anymore. Moved out to west suburbs..

[ Parent ]
Beijing (3.00 / 1) (#31)
by Pseudoephedrine on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 02:09:06 PM EST

I was actually in Beijing during July 1999 for two weeks (the other six weeks were spent in Guangzhou, Shanghai, Qingdong, and Hong Kong). Advertising is actually quite sparse outside, but it's not really a good thing because so much of the city is ugly.

Beijing has some absolutely lovely boulevards and parks - just not in the tourist district. Outside my hotel (which was actually very nice inside), the road was being ripped up and reasphalted for the entirety of the two weeks I was there, in 40degrees Celsius 100% humidity weather. As a result, I ended up having to walk two blocks or so to get a taxi, and combined with nightly walks, and day trips here and there, I saw a fair amount of the city.

Most of Beijing is a dull greyish-tan colour, a mixture of dust coating the buildings and the stone they're made out of. There are no trees anywhere near the buildings, flagstones and pavement are cracked and worn, and the ever present dust and air pollution render every breath as bad a cigarette puff.

Beijing keeps a lot of the really nice stuff inside, in giant seven story malls, or in public parks that are well isolated from everything else. A simple test in a Chinese city (some of which are the size of Delaware) to figure out if one is in a park or not is to look around. If you can see a tree and you're outside, the answer is yes.

The style of the buildings themselves is rather unimpressive. A collection of uninspiring colonial and modernist architecture cobbled together. Beijing as a city lacks the elegance of Guangzhou's Colonial district or Shanghai's Podung Special Industrial Zone.

As I said earlier, Beijing isn't all bad - those afore-mentioned boulevards and parks (parks in China are the biggest and best ones I've yet seen), but the city itself isn't going to benefit that much from tearing down a few McDonalds golden arches.


"We who have passed through their hands feel suffocated when we think of that legion, which is stripped bare of human ideals" -Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Har far it would get redux (5.00 / 1) (#34)
by Wondertoad on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 02:59:11 PM EST

I wonder how far this sort of thing would get in a country where the government isn't as powerful, though.

As offended as I might be by consumer culture, my resentment stops far short of causing me to yearn for a government more closely modeled after China.

Do you ever wonder how far the human rights abuses would get if the government of your country was that powerful?

Thank you, golden arches. You represent more than I have ever imagined.

My town has a sign ordinance (none / 0) (#37)
by Yellowbeard on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 03:30:59 PM EST

Surrounding towns do not. Frankly, although the city police are a bit nazi-ish about enforcement, and though it means that some chains will not build here, I think that the overall effect is quite pleasing. My town has a pleasant, community feel, and, in fact, is consistantly voted one of the top 50 places to live in the US (well, obviously some criteria here would be nice, but that would be too boring to list here). The point is, sign ordinances make for a nice community, IMO.

"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt." - Deniro in Ronin


Well, tell us where you live, man! (none / 0) (#38)
by broken77 on Fri Mar 01, 2002 at 06:12:58 PM EST


I'm starting to doubt all this happy propaganda about Islam being a religion of peace. Heck, it's just as bad as Christianity. -- Dphitz
[ Parent ]

City planners strike back | 48 comments (41 topical, 7 editorial, 0 hidden)
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