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[P]
False Open Source Representative Calls for EU Software Patents

By Bruce Perens in News
Tue May 06, 2003 at 04:44:59 PM EST
Tags: Politics (all tags)
Politics

A false or misled "open source representative" has signed an industry resolution calling for the EU to allow software patenting, which has been sent to members of the European Parliament. Copies of the resolution are here and here . The European Legal Affairs Committee holds a plenary vote on software patenting this Wednesday, and may have been influenced by the false representation.


Graham Taylor is director of Open Forum Europe, an organization that is purported to work for broader acceptance of Open Source. Taylor has appeared at various trade shows in Europe, saying reasoanble things about Open Source, for the past year. Open Forum Europe is a division of IT Forum Foundation and InterForum. InterForum's membership includes a number of large companies that have a vested interest in the promotion of software patenting in Europe. Mr. Taylor's sponsor organization is well connected with the EU government.

I would encourage Mr. Taylor to evangelize Open Source software, something he's done successfully for a while. However, he does not have the credentials to represent the Linux, Open Source and Free Software developer communities, especially when he contradicts our extremely strong opposition to software patenting. While Mr. Taylor has been visible as a public speaker, it does not appear that he has any engagement with Open Source projects and developers, or that he brought this matter up with representative organizations such as the Free Software Foundation, the Open Source Initiative, and Software in the Public Interest. No legitimate Open Source representative would think of taking this sort of position with government without first holding a public consultation with the developer community.

Software patents could be fatal for Open Source software in the U.S. and Europe. Since we do not collect royalties from the distribution of our own software, we have no funds to pay royalties to patent holders. Rather than sue us to collect money, expect patent holders to sue Open Source developers to restrain them from distributing their software or carrying out further development. Companies that produce proprietary software would bring that sort of suit to kill us off as a competitor.

While we can sometimes work around a patented algorithm that we know about, the Open Source developer is not able to defend himself from patent infringement claims, even invalid ones. In the U.S., the cost of a patent infringement defense often exceeds US$500,000. The Open Source developer, an individual working on his own time, won't have the funds to defend himself. He will be compelled to settle with his accuser, regardless of the merits of the case, in order to preserve what assets the plaintiff deigns to leave him. The copyrights of his own software won't be among those assets.

We are especially threatened by royalty-bearing software patents that are embedded in industry standards. In many cases, it is impossible to achieve compliance with a standard without infringing upon the patented algorithms that are specified by that standard. Standard compliance is critical for interoperability, and thus software patents in standards can make an un-communicating island of a Linux system. For example, the IEEE 1488 FireWire standard is encumbered by patents that apply to the software interfacing to it, and a patent royalty pool is operated in connection with that standard. Linux implementations of FireWire are potentially infringing, and prosecution could result in our software becoming legally unable to access FireWire devices.

We can not expect our industrial partners, such as IBM and HP, to help with patent defense or with the matter of software patenting in general. While those companies are often our friends, their interests also come into conflict with ours. Some of them use software patents to generate revenue or provide monopolies for their businesses. Thus, IBM has been calling for increases in software patentability, despite the fact that this is contrary to IBM's involvement in Open Source.

We also can't expect those companies to go against their own business partners in our defense. In 2002, Microsoft informed its business partners of its plans to bring patent infringement lawsuits against Open Source projects, an intention that it had made public as far back as 2001, in an appearance by Microsoft V.P. Craig Mundie at an Open Source conference. Microsoft is probably holding off enforcement until the question of European software patentability is settled, lest they dissuade Europeans from allowing software patenting. Last year, HP signed a "non-aggression pact" with Microsoft that may prevent them from assisting us in the future. It's unknown whether IBM would be interested in opposing Microsoft to protect an Open Source project or an individual Open Source developer.

One problem we have in holding off software patents is that we have little damage to show so far. Although at least one company has made its plans clear, there has been little prosecution of Open Source developers for patent infringement to date. My surmise is that anyone who has a patent to prosecute will hold off until the European software patent decision is made. They wouldn't want to provide evidence against the very laws they are seeking.

Thus, software patents present a tremendous threat to Open Source, perhaps a fatal one once Europe joins the U.S. in broader software patenting. Yet, the letter signed signed by Mr. Taylor proposes no real protection for Open Source, only that the government monitor for damage and publish reports.

In correcting the actions of Mr. Taylor, I should explain who I am and what right I have to represent Linux and Open Source developers.

I have been a speaker for the community of Open Source developers and programmers since 1993. I am co-founder and elected director of Software in the Public Interest, Inc., a tax-exempt non-profit organization that supports a number of prestigious Free Software projects. SPI's members are individuals, most of them authors of software that they have contributed under an Open Source license. I am the creator of the Open Source Definition, the manifesto of the Open Source movement in software. I contributed my first Free Software in 1987, and have been a major Linux developer since 1993. Free Software that I've written is in widespread commercial use and has flown on the Space Shuttle. You can see my resume here.

I generally act on consensus of a larger group of leaders including members of the Open Source Initiative, Software in the Public Interest, the Free Software Foundation, and various software projects. I have issued this alert individually because it regards a government decision less than two days away, but will consult those organizations regarding how to proceed.

In writing this alert I am relying on information provided by

  • Hartmut Pilch, FFII & Eurolinux Alliance
  • Bernard Lang
  • Francois PELLEGRINI

You can reach me vie email to bruce @ perens.com or phone 510-526-1165 (US Pacific time zone).

Bruce Perens

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Related Links
o here
o here
o Open Forum Europe
o InterForum
o Free Software Foundation
o Open Source Initiative
o Software in the Public Interest
o here [2]
o FFII
o Also by Bruce Perens


Display: Sort:
False Open Source Representative Calls for EU Software Patents | 172 comments (114 topical, 58 editorial, 0 hidden)
Um, is this meta-humour? (3.35 / 14) (#5)
by Ripe Peach on Tue May 06, 2003 at 08:54:43 AM EST

A story about pushing a particular viewpoint using false representation, posted from a newbie account that's magically and very conveniently appeared to push a particular viewpoint.  I accept that this deserves to be voted up because of its content, but let's at least do as it says, and question the credentials of the (actual, not claimed) poster.

You know, given that Bruce chupacabra Bruce apparently can't even figure out how to move on from edit, I'm beginning to see turmeric's point about open source users, and I say that as an open source user.  

If this is what passes as organisation for this non-community, we might as well run up the white flag on this issue.

'I accept that this deserves to be voted up..' (1.00 / 1) (#6)
by Torka on Tue May 06, 2003 at 08:59:07 AM EST

Then why did you vote it down?

[ Parent ]
Because there's a better version of it in vote now (2.66 / 3) (#8)
by Ripe Peach on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:11:38 AM EST

So I voted for that instead.  It has more content, more context, and doesn't misrepresent itself.

Any further questions?

[ Parent ]

Not a newbie account (5.00 / 5) (#14)
by Scrymarch on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:21:11 AM EST

Archived stories shows this article.

[ Parent ]
Oopsie (3.66 / 3) (#19)
by Ripe Peach on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:59:55 AM EST

Well, I said "question". ;-)

Thanks for answering.  I guess my cynicism switch is a little trippy today.

That said, dear Bruce does rather appear to be using K5 as a publication medium rather than for debate.  That's his preroragative, but it hardly endears me to his cause.

[ Parent ]

Why I'm voting it down (3.90 / 21) (#9)
by BadDoggie on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:14:56 AM EST

It's more or less a press release. It starts as a notice about a specific problem, but doesn't explain the scope. There's no mention of why the hearings are taking place. There are no links.

It briefly discusses the general evil of software patents but it remains one man's view.

And we don't know that the man posting it is th same as the man who wrote it.

It's important, but not good in this form.

woof.

"You're more screwed up than turmeric and you're not even drunk!" — A Proud

Very subtle troll (3.66 / 15) (#13)
by J'raxis on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:16:20 AM EST

That is IEEE1394, not IEEE1488. The original article has it labelled correctly. Considering 1488 is some sort of White Supremacist code, I have a feeling this was a very subtle troll.

— The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]

Explained (4.66 / 3) (#22)
by truth versus death on Tue May 06, 2003 at 11:19:02 AM EST

Bruce on /. explains over here.

"any erection implies consent"-fae
[ Trim your Bush ]
[ Parent ]
A streach to call it a typo... (3.66 / 3) (#64)
by SvnLyrBrto on Tue May 06, 2003 at 03:19:21 PM EST

No matter wether you use the keypad or the row of numbers at the top of the keyboard, it's QUITE a streach to go from "1394" to "1488".

That isn't just a matter of a transposition or two numbers being next to each other, the keystrokes are FAR apart, for this to be a typo.

I find myself falling into the "this is a troll" and "someone hax0r3d Bruce's account" camp on this one; ESPECIALLY given his usual attention toward verifying his own identity vs. his imitators:  Something he has not done in this case.

cya,
john

Imagine all the people...
[ Parent ]

You did (5.00 / 1) (#105)
by truth versus death on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:55:37 PM EST

Read his explanation, right?

"any erection implies consent"-fae
[ Trim your Bush ]
[ Parent ]
Hehe (5.00 / 2) (#82)
by J'raxis on Tue May 06, 2003 at 06:52:24 PM EST

I really liked this explanation:
He may be saying that he’s saying that the firewire standard is fascist, like changing the S in MS to a $ (M$), rather than making a white power statement on his own part; I’ve read some of his other stuff and have not noticed white supremacist comments.
[sam_handelman in comment 5890478]

— The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]
[ Parent ]

Interesting reading (2.00 / 4) (#35)
by sllort on Tue May 06, 2003 at 01:06:55 PM EST

Feel free to get royally creeped out by the 1488 society which seems to be all upset about papal mass murder, as if the mass murder endorsed by Catholics is any different from that endorsed by all the other organized religions.

Also note that the person who first noted the typo on the other site was categorized as a spammer.

Personally I find Bruce's "typo" and his failure to use public key crypto to authenticate himself very, very suspicious, and I suspect his site has been 0wned while he's on vacation.
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]

Dear Mr. Perens... (3.23 / 26) (#16)
by Cruel Elevator on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:40:07 AM EST

This article has already been posted to Slashdot (here). I think that Kuro5hin readers also read Slashdot (though they might not post due to their personal reasons). May I humbly recommend that you consider participating in the Slashdot discussion? Efforts need not be duplicated - resources are precious.

Sincerely,

Cruel Elevator.

But, slashdot sucks (2.83 / 6) (#18)
by jester69 on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:47:12 AM EST

Why would I want to go there?
Its a lemming thing, Jeep owners would understand.
[ Parent ]
yeah, i think we all read /. (3.80 / 5) (#26)
by Black Black Heart on Tue May 06, 2003 at 11:58:56 AM EST

and deep down, we're really all just ashamed of being on the other site.


"I was once so tired, that I was a having a wank (as always), and halfway through realised, 'This isn't my penis'. I continued to wank regardless. If a jobs worth doing it's worth doing right." -Stick
[ Parent ]
I don't read SlashDot (3.25 / 4) (#80)
by freakazoid on Tue May 06, 2003 at 06:07:00 PM EST

I have K5. What do I need /. for?

[ Parent ]
I wish to announce (2.74 / 27) (#17)
by SideShow Ralph Wiggum on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:46:25 AM EST

that as of this moment, all OSS articles are getting a -1 from me...unless they're absolutely amazing, and the OSS project in question has some bearing on the universe outside of the house of the guy who's coding it.

SideShow Ralph Wiggum
This year buy her English Muffins...Whatever you say Mr. Billboard -- H. Simpson

YHBT HAND (1.08 / 56) (#20)
by A Spineless Liberal Commie on Tue May 06, 2003 at 11:08:35 AM EST

Perens, you're almost as good as Stallman, but you need to work on your homosexual circle-jerk to reach his level of homosexuality. Give it some time, friend, and you'll get there.

Wow... (3.50 / 26) (#24)
by tang gnat on Tue May 06, 2003 at 11:52:18 AM EST

Bruce Perens posts, and K5 turns into slashdot.

your wrong looser (3.12 / 8) (#29)
by Ripe Peach on Tue May 06, 2003 at 12:43:28 PM EST

i red artickles about this and bruce da man!  w00t!!

[ Parent ]
Wow, Osiris (3.33 / 6) (#53)
by Ripe Peach on Tue May 06, 2003 at 02:26:46 PM EST

You are one harsh rater.  Were you raised in the woods by a pack of Perens?

1 rating us heretics is one thing, but a 3 rating for an informative comment from the site admin?  Make sure you zip up when visiting the park, you don't want to scare the horses.

[ Parent ]

Osiris is another one of those guys (2.14 / 7) (#55)
by Tex Bigballs on Tue May 06, 2003 at 02:30:01 PM EST

that posts a comment once in a blue moon but has the nerve to rate everyone else. It's always the people that consistently rate the lowest that post the least, go figure eh?

If you have to rate nearly everyone down on an article then who's the asshole? You or everyone else?

I rest my case.

[ Parent ]

Your case (1.80 / 5) (#140)
by Osiris on Wed May 07, 2003 at 02:20:54 PM EST

I try to rate every comment I read. Flames and trolls get low ratings. If it looks like I rate a lot of things low, then I must just be reading a lot of flames.

Considering what transpired later, after you posted this comment, apparently you were the asshole.



[ Parent ]
Nah, it's worse (4.33 / 9) (#84)
by greenrd on Tue May 06, 2003 at 07:03:58 PM EST

This article has a much worse STC (signal-to-crap) ratio than Slashdot! (Admittedly, I browse Slashdot at +1, so that might change things a little, but still...)

This troll infestation of k5 is getting serious! It's only one or two bad apples that are spoiling the whole barrel! Something must be done!!!


"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

Simple solution (2.33 / 6) (#86)
by Eloquence on Tue May 06, 2003 at 07:20:13 PM EST

Burn down the diary ghetto.
--
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!
[ Parent ]
hahahaha (3.75 / 4) (#122)
by infinitera on Wed May 07, 2003 at 02:49:51 AM EST

You think the trolls come from the ghetto? Boy, that's rich. K5 stories are politics wankery - a troll's winter wonderland.

[ Parent ]
you wouldn't (3.00 / 2) (#148)
by Black Black Heart on Wed May 07, 2003 at 10:11:22 PM EST

dig it if we left the ghetto and came out here to live would you?

The angst would litter the streets (submission queue).

"I was once so tired, that I was a having a wank (as always), and halfway through realised, 'This isn't my penis'. I continued to wank regardless. If a jobs worth doing it's worth doing right." -Stick
[ Parent ]
My personal response to this situation (3.12 / 33) (#31)
by A Proud American on Tue May 06, 2003 at 12:49:18 PM EST

(and Bruce, I do hope you get a chance to read this and didn't just post an article here and flee.)

Anyway, that being said...

I personally feel that there are many other important causes and "wars" of sorts that we as enlightened and socially-aware computer professionals that require more attention than this EU software patent matter.

For example, we need to:

  1. Stop climate change
  2. Protect ancient forests
  3. Save the oceans
  4. Stop whaling
  5. Say no to genetic engineering
  6. Stop the nuclear threat
  7. Eliminate toxic chemicals
  8. Stop war
  9. Encourage sustainable trade
  10. Bring Linux to the desktop
Now, this is by no means an exhaustive list, but it's my own personal agenda for the next several decades.  I regularly donate 25% of my take-home salary to fighting for the aforementioned causes.

Bruce, I know this matter upsets you, but I can't help but wonder how a man with as much influence, wealth, power, and connections as yourself could join me and many others in our fight to make a better Earth for everyone today and for future generations.

Perhaps it's time for all of us to power off our computers, take a breath of fresh air, and reflect upon why we're here on Earth, what our life stands for, and how we can achieve meaning.

Thanks for reading.

Yours in peace and love,
-- APA

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


I refer you to the lady that runs a cat sanctuary (4.90 / 10) (#37)
by Ripe Peach on Tue May 06, 2003 at 01:15:07 PM EST

in Calcutta (apochryphal intarweb tale).

Q: "Why do you waste all this time and effort helping cats when there are so many suffering people in the city?"
A: "Because I want to, and I can make a difference."

Fight those good fights that you're passionate about.  Apathetic revolutions rarely succeed.

[ Parent ]

Indeed (3.80 / 5) (#72)
by duncan bayne on Tue May 06, 2003 at 04:02:04 PM EST

Act in your own rational self-interest - if doing something benefits you (e.g. my own use and evangelisation of Linux), then do it.  If not, don't.

Couldn't be simpler :-)

[ Parent ]

u sound like a nuremburg nazi (2.33 / 6) (#89)
by turmeric on Tue May 06, 2003 at 07:31:08 PM EST

same logic. same results. get this: doing shit in your own self interest is just about the worst thing in the world and has caused more death and suffering than anything else

[ Parent ]
Disagree (3.83 / 6) (#90)
by duncan bayne on Tue May 06, 2003 at 07:42:46 PM EST

Any collectivist mentality (e.g. Communism, NAZIsm etc.) all preach self-sacrifice.  The difference is whether the individual is forced to sacrifice to Society (Communism), the Master Race (NAZIsm), or the Environment (Environmentalism).

Only a philosophy of rational self-interest prevents such atrocities.

Is it in my self-interest to value and respect human rights, and treat others in a benevolent (though not altruistic) manner?  Yes.  Is it in my self interest to don an SS uniform and purge Jews, or encourage system that enables same?  No.

[ Parent ]

help me doctor, the randroid is talking! (2.50 / 6) (#113)
by turmeric on Wed May 07, 2003 at 12:33:15 AM EST

yes. it is in your self interest to kill jews, IF YOU WIN IN THE END. just as every american explains that we cant go back and give indians the land. preaching preaching preaching.

its also in you self interest to be pro-war, because hitler murdered pacifists. its in your interest to be in the banks or big companies because after the war none/almost-none of those people got punished or even demoted.

short term self interest, long term self interest, 'self sacrifice' collectivists, its all a lot of smoke and mirrors and bullshit.

[ Parent ]

Wow (1.50 / 2) (#142)
by duncan bayne on Wed May 07, 2003 at 04:00:08 PM EST

You have a seriously strange definition of 'in my self interest'.  How is it in my self-interest to foster a society that allows any form of racial purging, regardless of whether or not I'm in the group currently being purged?  For the same reason, and on a more general level, how is it to my advantage to foster a society that doesn't respect individual rights as paramount?


[ Parent ]
good fucking question (3.00 / 2) (#149)
by turmeric on Wed May 07, 2003 at 11:29:33 PM EST

and how is it ayn rands self interest to have an affair and keep it secret?

[ Parent ]
Not a Randist (none / 0) (#160)
by duncan bayne on Thu May 08, 2003 at 04:54:32 PM EST

You assume I'm an Ayn Rand worshipper like Leonard Peikoff.  I'm not.  I disagree with some of what Ayn Rand said, some of what she did, & a lot of what the ARI say and do.

Objectivist != Randist

Seriously, I'm trying to have a discussion here - please do me the courtesy of assuming I have the intelligence to analyze philosophy, rather than parotting it.

Besides, you didn't answer my question, you just posed another irrelevant one :-)

[ Parent ]

ok (5.00 / 1) (#165)
by turmeric on Thu May 08, 2003 at 11:44:05 PM EST

saying 'life should be about self interset' is like saying 'life should be about good things'. thank you mr obvious. the arguments are all over what is actually in your self interest. capitalist vs communist, centralized vs individualized, the environment will be fine vs it wont be fine and we should take care of it because we depend on it, etc. these are all people saying xyz is in your self interest vs it isnt. nobody, NOBODY is saying that you should not care about your self interest.

except for one segment: the military and corporations. they want you to sacrifice yourself to their altar, their modern day human offerings to the god of technoutopian progress. do you not think?

[ Parent ]

Yes, I do (none / 0) (#166)
by duncan bayne on Sun May 11, 2003 at 05:09:16 PM EST

Yes, I do. I'd add religions, most environmental groups & all socialists to the list, but yes - those groups all preach self-sacrifice.

This incidentally is the problem I have with modern concepts of 'free trade'. If the USA actually promoted free trade it would lift all subsidies and tariffs, & encourage trade only with countries that did likewise.

What most people think of as free trade (and rightly oppose) is actually corporatism. Corporatism (where monied & politically connected interests buy political power) is in fact a direct, inevitable result of government control of the economy. This is best summed up by PJ O'Rourke:

When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.

True freedom, in a political & economic sense, is where the Government has no power over any form of voluntary relationships between people, be they personal or trade. When there isn't any power to buy, corporatism vanishes in short order - corporatism cannot exist in a vacuum of Government-initiated force.



[ Parent ]
ok uhm (none / 0) (#167)
by turmeric on Sun May 11, 2003 at 08:34:32 PM EST

lead smelter, dumping poison into a lake where children swim. what should happen in a libertarian society? better yet, erin brokovich.

[ Parent ]
Civil suit (none / 0) (#168)
by duncan bayne on Sun May 11, 2003 at 08:42:37 PM EST

This sounds like a perfect case for civil suit - someone has initiated an action that materially harmed others, i.e. initiated force against them.  

Furthermore, in the case of companies that attempt to cover up details of such cases, they've committed fraud as well.

Now, under a Libertarian society, the harmed parties will be able to sue the company responsible for damages.  This assumes they'll be able to:

 - prove the company dumped the waste
 - prove their children were harmed by the waste

In the case of lead (or similar well-known toxins with an established pathology), neither should be too difficult.

The interesting thing is that under a Libertarian Government (at least, the Libertarianz, who are the NZ Libertarian party), the Government is open to civil suit, just as are private individuals and companies.

This is incidentally how the Libz plan on dealing with Treaty of Waitangi claims - if an Iwi can prove the Govt. confiscated their land or property, they can sue the Government.  No other type of Treaty claim (e.g. for radio frequencies or gas fields) will be considered valid.

AFAIK, Erin Brokovich was a legal secretary who pursued a successful lawsuit against a company which was provable harming individuals by pollution - a textbook case of Libertarian policy in action.  I might be wrong though, having never seen the movie ;-)

[ Parent ]

courts imply state force (none / 0) (#169)
by turmeric on Sun May 11, 2003 at 10:43:58 PM EST

surprise there goes your freedom

[ Parent ]
Not true (none / 0) (#170)
by duncan bayne on Sun May 11, 2003 at 11:12:05 PM EST

Freedom is only harmed by initiation of force. Thus, it is (under a Libertarian Government) illegal to mug someone, but it is legal to defend oneself against mugging by *retaliating* against the initiation of force with force.

This is how it is with civil suits as well. If the court determines that someone (including legal 'someones' such as companies) initiated force against another, then the Government can use force to ensure reparations are made, because it isn't initiating the use of force.

An example of initiation of force by Government is compulsory taxation - money taken by force (or by threat of force), by Government. An example of *retaliatory* use of force by Government is the use of an army to repel invaders.

For an in-depth explanation, check out this article: "The difference between the initiation of force and retaliatory force is that retaliatory force is a response to force. It is force meeting force in kind. It is the only proper response to a person who initiates force."



[ Parent ]
yes well (none / 0) (#171)
by turmeric on Mon May 19, 2003 at 03:56:44 PM EST

to build an army the government has to raise taxes and quite often force people into conscription and brainwashing. so even though it is 'defending itself' it is really initiating force on a shitload of people in order to do that. same thing with collateral damage.

[ Parent ]
Not at all (none / 0) (#172)
by duncan bayne on Tue May 20, 2003 at 03:56:46 PM EST

to build an army the government has to raise taxes and quite often force people into conscription and brainwashing

Not at all - all one needs for an effective defense force is the right to bear arms (just ask Finland about that), voluntary taxation, and volunteer servicepeople.

For an example of how this can be done, see the Libertarianz proposed budget at Budget 2003, or for a similar analyis applied to the USA, see STEW - A Modest Recipe For Tax Relief.

so even though it is 'defending itself' it is really initiating force on a shitload of people in order to do that.

Yes, if it funds the military (or anything else, for that matter) through compulsory taxation, or uses conscription. Which raises a question - if you're opposed to compulsory taxation for military purposes, what about for other reasons? I.e., are you opposed to compulsory taxation, or just certain ways of spending the loot?

same thing with collateral damage.

Unfortunately yes - there will almost always be collateral damage in war, where non-combatants are harmed. The only thing that can be done here is try our utmost to minimise it, and a good way of doing that is never to initiate warfare - that'd minimise the number of wars, for starters.

I think we're agreed here that the Government shouldn't initiate force against its people - be that Government left wing, right wing, or whatever. No?



[ Parent ]
nice list (3.14 / 7) (#41)
by Shren on Tue May 06, 2003 at 01:36:01 PM EST

Stop climate change

Won't happen. The climate will always be different as a result of the presence of humans. And even were we not here, climate is always changing. Learn to deal or get a helmet.

Protect ancient forests

Yes. They're pretty.

Save the oceans

No, I'm going to drink them all and you can't stop me.

Stop whaling

But whales taste good!

Say no to genetic engineering

Yes, by all means, let's get rid of a science that might be the only thing that can keep us from drowning in a sea of disease.

Stop the nuclear threat

While we're at it we should get rid of all guns.

Eliminate toxic chemicals

All of them? Grab your furs and stone spear - almost all manufacturing requires some pretty nasty chemicals. Especially solar cells.

Stop war

If you stop war, then all of the stresses that cause war channel themselves out into other forms of aggression, like airliners slamming into buildings. We're already well on our way to stopping war - global intercommunication between national leaders and nuclear weapons put us on the track. The only serious question left is, will we survive a world without war? All of these stresses are just finding other outlets.

Encourage sustainable trade

What's sustainable?

Bring Linux to the desktop

The patent issue is critical here. If software patents get going full speed, then Microsoft could claim that Linux breaches several of thier patents, sue Linus for a couple hundred million dollars, and put Linux underground legally as well as culturally.

[ Parent ]

PARENT IS WRITTEN BY A MORON!~!!! [n/t] (1.90 / 10) (#63)
by Spendocrat on Tue May 06, 2003 at 03:19:20 PM EST



[ Parent ]
There's only one cause worth fighting for. (3.00 / 3) (#46)
by Kyle on Tue May 06, 2003 at 02:06:40 PM EST

Contribute only to the One Most Worth Cause. How can you possibly justify giving your time to a lesser cause when there's a more worthy cause available?

[ Parent ]

THE most worthy cause (none / 0) (#155)
by Quila on Thu May 08, 2003 at 10:39:26 AM EST

I need a Lotus Sport Suspension and a 190hp upgrade upgrade for my Elise. Please donate; all else is trivial!

Well, everyone's gotta have his priorities, right?

Oh yeah, a shiny new PowerMac would be nice, too.

[ Parent ]

Where to start? (3.40 / 5) (#70)
by duncan bayne on Tue May 06, 2003 at 03:49:51 PM EST

Well well well. Where to start? I know, how about "For example, we need to". You might want to, but you certainly can't say I need to, for reasons that will become abundantly clear...

Stop climate change

Really? Given that there's no evidence whatsoever that long-term climate change is our doing (esp. given that the sun seems to be warming up), why do you suggest this? It's much more likely that climate change is a natural cycle which we don't understand, and attempting to stop it would likely prove disastruous.

Protect ancient forests

That's a good idea - I happen to like ancient forests. So, how about we club together and buy some, to protect them from developers? Oh, you mean protect as in "get Government to prevent people, by force, from chopping them down"? Thought so.

Save the oceans

What, you mean they're going somewhere? Oh, you mean reduce overfishing & aquatic pollution. Sounds like a good idea - where such overfishing & pollution harms humans. Where it doesn't, there's no need for legislation, indeed no justification for legislation.

Stop whaling

Why, if it can be done sustainably?

Say no to genetic engineering

What a good idea. Lets let millions of people starve, farmers continue to increase pollution levels, and people with genetic diseases die. Sounds like eugenics to me.

Stop the nuclear threat

Why? Nuclear deterrent is the only reason we didn't have a third World War.

Eliminate toxic chemicals

Eh? Many toxic chemicals are useful. I don't honestly understand this request - if literal, you'd destroy humanity, if not ... ????

Stop war

Agreed - people should stop starting wars. Retaliation against initiation of force however is perfectly valid; if Canada (hypothetical) were to invade the USA, they would be perfectly justified in responding with force.

Encourage sustainable trade

Yep - remove all tarrifs. African countries will be able to export agricultural products to first-world countries, thereby building their economies. Likewise, first-world countries will cease subsidising industries with money stolen from their citizens. Oh, I thought you said free trade.

Bring Linux to the desktop

A ray of hope! :-) Seriously, I'm running Mandrake 9.1 + WindowMaker, and enjoying it greatly. Most people seem to assume that User Friendly == The Microsoft Way, but it just isn't so. People to whom I've exposed WindowMaker agree that the WindowMaker UI is actually more intuitive than Windows.



[ Parent ]
and you think you won't need software for that? (4.00 / 7) (#77)
by Burning Straw Man on Tue May 06, 2003 at 04:50:37 PM EST

To stop climate change, we'll have to understand it better. It will take a massive amount of computing power -- and sophisticated software -- to analyse the massive amounts of data. If that software is locked up by large corporations, if for example someone patents "data mining" and refuses to use it to solve climate change problems...
--
your straw man is on fire...
[ Parent ]
We all do what we can (3.81 / 16) (#81)
by Bruce Perens on Tue May 06, 2003 at 06:28:23 PM EST

Dear APA,

The guy across the street from me is an atomic scientist at U.C. Berkeley. He has done a lot of work that went into the SALT treaty and other nuclear disarmament issues. He's a lot better at that topic than I would be. In our home we do what we can, I recently put up a solar water heating system, converted to energy-saving lighting, and I don't eat whales or support George Bush.

That said, the issues upon which I show the greatest competence are the ones I'm working on. I consider that by helping gain legal accomodation for free software, I am helping assure that there will be a computer infrastructure that supports widespread democratic discourse. That's critically important.

We all do what we can.

Bruce

[ Parent ]

Man APA, I'm jealous (2.86 / 15) (#85)
by Tex Bigballs on Tue May 06, 2003 at 07:05:57 PM EST

you successfully trolled a real life celebrity.

Congrats man you just earned your stripes.

[ Parent ]

Wait (2.20 / 5) (#94)
by grouse on Tue May 06, 2003 at 08:58:20 PM EST

Are you a troll? I always thought you were a serious user who made useful contributions to the community, like the K5 ASCII Fiction Players or whatever it is called (keep 'em coming!).

You sad bastard!

"Grouse please don't take this the wrong way... To be quite frank, you are throwing my inner Chi out of its harmonious balance with nature." -- Tex Bigballs
[ Parent ]

No. I'm rusty's number one favorite user [nt] (2.28 / 7) (#110)
by Tex Bigballs on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:41:12 PM EST



[ Parent ]
The One That Got Away (3.71 / 7) (#107)
by Alfie on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:18:03 PM EST

Trolling has evolved several definitions over the years. The original definition likened trolling to a kind of fishing where boats would "troll" through the waters dragging a line with hooked-bait at the end in the hopes that a fish would take the bait and get hooked so that the fisherman can then reel it in. Trolls would post "hooked-bait" in the form of posts which almost sound reasonable, but which are really attempts to get other posters to make fools of themselves in front of everyone else.

The analogy can be extended even further. Some fish manage to take the bait without getting hooked. The "fish" turns the discussion in the direction he or she wishes to take it, and makes the points which are important to him or her without getting caught by the absurdities of the troll.



[ Parent ]
as long as it means we get big paychecks (2.88 / 9) (#88)
by turmeric on Tue May 06, 2003 at 07:29:53 PM EST

course all those HP sweatshops in southeast asia pumping out hardware for your patent-free software dont have anything to do with anything right? off topic!

[ Parent ]
He doesn't work at HP (none / 0) (#154)
by Quila on Thu May 08, 2003 at 10:32:11 AM EST

Check your facts.

[ Parent ]
You must start eating whales man! (1.80 / 5) (#93)
by michaelp on Tue May 06, 2003 at 08:57:27 PM EST

Think of the sweet, tiny, helpless, Krill!!!!

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

[ Parent ]
Pfffff. (4.00 / 4) (#135)
by Tezcatlipoca on Wed May 07, 2003 at 12:35:56 PM EST

If the experts in a given field do not not put things right, people with a minimum of know how and loads of narrow interests are going to stuff us.

Evrything today uses computers and by extension software.

If you can't understand how relevant it is that the creation of software is unencumbered by patents, if you don't understand why the freedom to create software is high up there with many other issues, then you are living in a parallel universe that has nothing to do with this one.

You are  asking that we leave one of the most powerful tools of learning and knowledge in the hands of corporations and goverments, you are asking that individuals stop sharing ideas.

If you can't see where that leads your help to any other worthy causes is mostly irrelevant since you can not see why some issues are important.

Might is right
Freedom? Which freedom?
[ Parent ]

Patents can hinder many of these causes (3.25 / 4) (#144)
by Lynoure on Wed May 07, 2003 at 05:06:59 PM EST

   1.  Stop climate change

If a company comes up with the solution to this and patents it, guess what happens?

   2. Protect ancient forests

Many ancient forests are in danger because banana (or tobacco) farming is one of the most profitable ways of making money in the area. By extending patents it's easy to keep poor countries out of competition, since for them international patents and licence fees are terribly expensive. Therfore they have to keep doing what is profitable, that is banana or tobacco farming.

   3. Save the oceans

Same as for number 1. A great solution can be kept from being used for a rather long time by the company holding the patent.

   6. Stop the nuclear threat
   7. Eliminate toxic chemicals

See number 1 above.

   8. Stop war

You can help to stop a lot of wars by helping the 3rd world become prosperous (see number 2 above).

   9. Encourage sustainable trade

See number 2 above.

[ Parent ]

We need to... (3.00 / 1) (#152)
by Quila on Thu May 08, 2003 at 07:15:18 AM EST

For example, we need to:
  1. Stop climate change

Earth's climate has been naturally changing since its formation, and we're supposed to stop that? How about "Make sure we aren't altering the Earth's natural climate changes," otherwise, you're fucking with the climate in the name of saving it.

  2. Protect ancient forests

Good one. But let's give that Chilean farmer who needs to clear some land to grow food an alternative. Or in doing that are we disrupting an ancient, traditional culture? We're supposed to be preserving those too, right?

  3. Save the oceans

They need saving? Or do you mean stop those oil and chemical spills that do spot damage?

 4. Stop whaling

Related to #2. Tell the Eskimos they can't whale as they've done for over a thousand years? Or did you just mean mass commercial whaling?

  5. Say no to genetic engineering

Say no to more food for the hungry, disease resistant crops and cured diseases? Through genetic engineering, they've just figured out how to stop mosquitos from spreading malaria and west nile virus. Would you change your tune if genetic engineering had a cure for your daughter's disease?

  6. Stop the nuclear threat

North Korea, right? That's about the only one left I can think of aside from terrorists.

  7. Eliminate toxic chemicals

Like the ones used to make that computer you're typing this on?  The ones that send the Shuttle into space, or the chemotherapy used to fight cancer? Actually, a good number of the elements are toxic chemicals, too.

Or do you mean to make sure they don't get where they're not supposed to go?

  8. Stop war

I'd add "Stop the need for war."

  9. Encourage sustainable trade

Can't argue with that one.

 10. Bring Linux to the desktop

Making Linux as good for the general masses as XP or OS X is definitely a great ideal.

Bruce, I know this matter upsets you, but I can't help but wonder how a man with as much influence, wealth, power, and connections as yourself could join me and many others in our fight to make a better Earth for everyone today and for future generations.

Everyone has their pet causes. There are millions of people working on the ones you listed. Allow some other causes to have their proponents too.

[ Parent ]

Your list is pretty redundant. (3.00 / 1) (#159)
by mcgrew on Thu May 08, 2003 at 03:43:04 PM EST

3 can't be done without 4, 2 can't be done without 3, and 1 can't be done without 2, 3, and 4.

I personally think 5 is going to allow me to be dug up and reanimated in a few hundred years, after which I will live forever. I don't like the idea of being dead forever.

6. Too late. The only thing you could do would be to gather all the plutonium and U235 and shoot it into somebody else's star.

7. That's ignorant. You would have to cause an entire range of plants and animals that produce poisons to become extinct, from copperheads to certain frogs, to poison ivy, etc.

It's also hypocritical. You did, after all, write this on a computer, which depends on those toxic chemicals. The battery in your watch is toxic- why aren't you wearing a wind-up analog?

8. Pathetically ignorant. If you want to stop war, learn forgiveness. Follow Jesus. Become Jehovahs' witness. Or STFU.

9. ? You're going to have to explain that one.

10. WTF DO YOU THINK THE ARTICLE IS ABOUT?

I used to think you were a troll. I'm starting to think you rode the short bus to school.

You donate 25%? 25% of how much? If you're making $40k it is unbelievably amazing and you are a saint. If $2m, it's nothing more than lip service.

Perhaps it's time for all of us to power off our computers, take a breath of fresh air, and reflect upon why we're here on Earth, what our life stands for, and how we can achieve meaning.

I do that daily. I didn't see you responding to my "Church" diary last Sunday.

"The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie
[ Parent ]

I can't believe this bullshit. (1.52 / 59) (#48)
by A Spineless Liberal Commie on Tue May 06, 2003 at 02:11:03 PM EST

Millions of people in Africa are starving to death due to state-induced famines, and others are dying of AIDs. Yet, this arrogant prick has the time to worry about a goddamn software patent? What the fuck is that about? Who the hell CARES about a fucking software patent? Perens, do you get a woody when an OSS advocate disagrees with you? Do you jizz your pants like a 13 year old boy? WHO THE FUCK CARES? It's fucking CODE. It's not the end of the world, you superficial fucktard. No one here gives a flying cunthair either.

So take your bullshit rants and shove them up your penis hole. At least then you'll be able to piss all over them. In fact, I'm going to print this bullshit piece of retard garbage out right now so I can piss on it.

Good day, cockmaster GNU hippy fucker.

This comment was so inspiring (2.00 / 9) (#51)
by Tex Bigballs on Tue May 06, 2003 at 02:13:47 PM EST

I just got off the phone with my broker to sell all my shares of LNUX and RHAT.

[ Parent ]
May I have your attention please... (3.60 / 15) (#67)
by pb on Tue May 06, 2003 at 03:32:05 PM EST

Our own A Proud American was kind enough to do a musical rendition of my song, Will The Real Bruce Perens Please Stand Up, as mentioned in his diary.

I would like to thank Bruce Perens for giving me the timely opportunity to mention this, and note that although Bruce Perens imposters are still alive and well, (even in Europe!) he is still the real Bruce Perens.

Thanks, Bruce!
---
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall

I really don't know why you guys are trolling (1.86 / 37) (#68)
by Tex Bigballs on Tue May 06, 2003 at 03:48:23 PM EST

This is the great Bruce Perens, for fuck's sake. He's got credentials for the open source community.

Look, I'm not saying I'm gay or anything, but after seeing this guy's resume, I'm so impressed that I'm willing to let him take my ass hymen if he wants it.

-1 and I'll tell you why (3.63 / 22) (#75)
by Burning Straw Man on Tue May 06, 2003 at 04:45:44 PM EST

Bruce, you just posted verbatim the text from your own website. You could have just linked to it along with a brief summary and other information, instead of effectively doubling the storage space requirement for your (admittedly important) article.
--
your straw man is on fire...
Linking vs Copying (5.00 / 1) (#147)
by kraant on Wed May 07, 2003 at 09:27:53 PM EST

Storage is cheap. Redundancy is good.
--
"kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
Never In Our Names...
[ Parent ]
however (none / 0) (#157)
by Burning Straw Man on Thu May 08, 2003 at 11:22:30 AM EST

As has been posted several times in this discussion, there are subtle differences between the two "copies". Which one is the master copy? Which one is the authoritative message?
--
your straw man is on fire...
[ Parent ]
Authorative Texts (none / 0) (#164)
by kraant on Thu May 08, 2003 at 07:31:54 PM EST

It's obviously a living document with many revisions. ;)
--
"kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
Never In Our Names...
[ Parent ]
More Dubious Tactics ? (4.83 / 12) (#79)
by mickwd on Tue May 06, 2003 at 06:00:56 PM EST

A couple of years ago, the EU commissioned a report on The Results of the European Commission Consultation Exercise on Patentability of Computer Implemented Inventions.

On page three, those who are "opposed to most software patents" are described as taking a "Restrictive Approach". Whereas those who wish to "apply traditional patentability criteria to computer-implemented inventions" are described as taking a "Liberal Approach".

From page four (emphasis mine):

It was clear that the group opposed to software patents (91%) numerically dominated the response. A large proportion of this group was explicitly from the "Open Source" movement including the Eurolinux "petition". 54% or responses that were sent directly to the Commission and were not from explicit "Open Source" respondents, supported software related patents.

If account is taken of the economic muscle and number of organisations represented by responses from industry and other associations it can be argued that there is an "economic" majority in favour of patents on computer-implemented inventions.

So much for democracy.

Of course, tricks like this make you wonder just how badly those who want software patents in Europe want them, why they want them so badly, and why they will go to such underhand lengths to get them.

Do you really think this is for the benefit of the population of Europe as a whole ?

Of course not (4.85 / 7) (#103)
by michaelp on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:48:53 PM EST

'democracy' always fails before the core concept of corporate personhood:

Everything must be owned.

The correllary of course is that everything must have a price.

It's the kind of mentality that leads the mouth parts of corporate person's to make comparisons between OSS and socialism.



"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

[ Parent ]
stolen signature (finally apropos): (4.50 / 2) (#138)
by ethereal on Wed May 07, 2003 at 01:43:07 PM EST

Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

"Economic majority" is exactly that kind of argument. Without equal protection of the rights of the minority (in this case, I suppose it would be an economic minority, whatever that is), democracy means nothing, or even worse than nothing.

--

Stand up for your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and State
[ Parent ]

what gives you the fucking authorization (1.81 / 33) (#83)
by turmeric on Tue May 06, 2003 at 06:57:18 PM EST

why dont you take your big fucking VA linux stock options and shove them in a burning pile of shitty open source licenses? thank you.

k5 is an utter failure now (3.00 / 26) (#91)
by jvcoleman on Tue May 06, 2003 at 08:20:59 PM EST

The response to this article depresses me a little bit. What is it about you sociopathic freaks that prevents you from having a normal discussion about anything. All of you are sick. I noticed two responses to this article that are very telling:
  1. People voting up a copied press release just because it was written by a "celeb" from Slashdot.

  2. People immediately thinking (and with good reason) the article is a troll and its author is an impostor.

  3. Pathetic geeks trying to "call out" someone that is not even going to bother to read this discussion (again, with good reason).

  4. The scarcity of even a single insightful or even relevant comment on the issue which causes not a bit of surprise. There is nothing... Not even an acknowledgment that people have read the resolution or anything else except the other trolls.

K5 = the new web locus of socially challenged right-wing jackass trolls. Congrats!

im thinking... (3.37 / 8) (#92)
by Work on Tue May 06, 2003 at 08:55:19 PM EST

it was likely the trolls and their many accounts that voted it up.

K5 has been owned by the trolls for some weeks now. Judging from diaries, comments and most stories in the edit queue, there are more troll posts than real ones these days.

It's kind of sad, but when my subscription expires in 19 days, I'm not going to renew. There's little on k5 worth reading anymore. I spend more time on fotolog. Unless the trolls start becoming shutterbugs, i doubt they'll touch that place much.

[ Parent ]

yeah I agree (2.33 / 12) (#99)
by jvcoleman on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:29:19 PM EST

It's these stupid fucking right-wing trolls, threatening to ruin the site. Like ruined ruined. Slashdot is not even readable at threshold 5 any more. The noise is almost 100%. k5 used to be good but the regulars and founders don't seem to have much interest in stopping or addressing the problem.

[ Parent ]
hahahahaha man you kill me (2.21 / 14) (#100)
by Tex Bigballs on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:39:36 PM EST

stupid right wing trolls? Where were the politics on this thread? Seriously dude, it could have been rush fucking limbaugh who wrote an article on here and we would have trolled him just as bad.


[ Parent ]
just shut the fuck up white boy (1.15 / 20) (#101)
by jvcoleman on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:44:31 PM EST

Go make yourself a party pizza, have a dew, and shut the fuck up.

[ Parent ]
Sorry man. (1.27 / 11) (#104)
by Tex Bigballs on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:51:10 PM EST

I'll let you get back to selling your bean pies now.

[ Parent ]
hey jvcoleman, give me another 1 rating and... (1.20 / 25) (#102)
by Tex Bigballs on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:44:48 PM EST

EAT A BIG BOWL FULL OF DICK WHILE YOU'RE AT IT

[ Parent ]
But.. but (2.75 / 4) (#112)
by coryking on Tue May 06, 2003 at 11:30:30 PM EST

What about my site? Huh <sniff>

[ Parent ]
The Trolls and Their Many Accounts (3.50 / 6) (#115)
by SPYvSPY on Wed May 07, 2003 at 12:46:24 AM EST

There's pure poetry in the troll cavalry and their infantry of accounts. I would like this story so much better if it were an elaborate ruse.

Hooray for the seeds of doubt sown by dutiful trolls! Robbing this story of its pushy, sleazy earnestness can't be a bad thing, after all. I mean, if you want to change EU policy, catch a fucking plane to Brussels and transfer a bundle of cash into one of the ministers' numbered accounts. No need to bring us into it.
------------------------------------------------

By replying to this or any other comment in this thread, you assign an equal share of all worldwide copyright in such reply to each of the other readers of this site.
[ Parent ]

Used to be true (4.16 / 6) (#116)
by Work on Wed May 07, 2003 at 01:04:58 AM EST

I agree, the trolls used to actually add something to here. Most of the people behind them had at least a viewpoint to offer (albeit a different one), but sometimes they made you think. Like Tumeric.

But these trolls here now like "Tex Bigballs" and most of the trolls who use A Proud American (gotta be more than 1 person) are petty and stupid. A hair above crapflooders.

This whole posting is a massive crapflood.

And when the majority of comments come from trolls, you know the end of usefulness is near.

[ Parent ]

Wait a minute. (2.75 / 4) (#128)
by SPYvSPY on Wed May 07, 2003 at 10:11:00 AM EST

My point was that the trolls (via this posting and the aggregate of trolling activity) have totally undermined the righteous claptrap from software activists. That's a good thing, IMO.
------------------------------------------------

By replying to this or any other comment in this thread, you assign an equal share of all worldwide copyright in such reply to each of the other readers of this site.
[ Parent ]

Huh? (4.00 / 4) (#131)
by TheReverend on Wed May 07, 2003 at 10:58:39 AM EST

Used to? When, last summer when you registered?

This site has always been full of HUGE biters. It doesn't help if you say things like "I know this is a troll" and then continue to respond.

The reason the "old school" slashdot trolls came here, was because slashdot was too easy, and this place seemed like fresh blood. Turned out that this site was just as easy to troll, so they went off and started adequacy, and used this site as a stepping stone to make it popular.

And they succeeded. Too well, they put themselves out of business by showing the world how easy it was to troll k5, and along came all the kids.

I'm talking to YOU >20K USERID TROLL!

---
"Democratic voting is specifically about minority rights" --Infinitera
lol
[ Parent ]

nah. (3.50 / 4) (#136)
by Work on Wed May 07, 2003 at 01:05:55 PM EST

i've been around a bit longer than that :) i did go by a different name for the first year and a half, however.

And I disagree. The trolls here were of a slightly higher caliber (as in they trolled intelligently, rather than mindless crapflooding).

But for the past few weeks, its really degraded. Theres no intelligence to it. just boring party-line trolling. And most of the comments are the trolls, and their troll friends responses. A giant troll wankfest.

Adequecy needs to come back and give them a new home.

[ Parent ]

Previous comment is a troll (1.80 / 5) (#95)
by grouse on Tue May 06, 2003 at 08:59:51 PM EST

A diabolical one at that.

You sad bastard!

"Grouse please don't take this the wrong way... To be quite frank, you are throwing my inner Chi out of its harmonious balance with nature." -- Tex Bigballs
[ Parent ]

To which you added (3.20 / 5) (#96)
by michaelp on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:05:35 PM EST

The scarcity of even a single insightful or even relevant comment on the issue which causes not a bit of surprise.

"Don't bang the drum"

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

[ Parent ]
no, that's too easy (3.60 / 5) (#98)
by jvcoleman on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:24:48 PM EST

Someone has to point it out and speak out. Your idiotarian "oh yeah well look at you" comment, on the other hand, actually was useless and would probably get karma points over at /.

[ Parent ]
jvcoleman people like u are what make K5 great (1.61 / 13) (#97)
by Tex Bigballs on Tue May 06, 2003 at 09:11:57 PM EST

[nt]

[ Parent ]
relevance (2.28 / 7) (#114)
by turmeric on Wed May 07, 2003 at 12:37:47 AM EST

ok, lets say a bunch of KKK people show up at a town hall meeting about bike lanes. they go on and on and on about bike lanes. someone stands up and points out that they are racist shitbags with no credibility.

but thank god we have you to correct such wrong headed thinking. for gods sakes, they have to stay on topic! so what if charles manson is trying to explain how to write erotic fan fiction. stay on topic! dont criticize the poor man!

[ Parent ]

Untrue (1.83 / 6) (#130)
by Cro Magnon on Wed May 07, 2003 at 10:24:05 AM EST

K5 = the new web locus of socially challenged LEFT-wing jackass trolls. Keep your wings straight.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
Which of those responses angers you? (3.50 / 6) (#132)
by sllort on Wed May 07, 2003 at 11:31:58 AM EST

You mentioned two, then listed four.

Personally I thought that questioning Bruce's credentials was important. It's what he'd want us to do. He got so angry about being impersonated on Slashdot that he mounted a campaign to get his userid confirmed on offsite HTML all over the place. The original press release contained a VERY suspicious misspelling.

If anyone else showed up at K5, dumped their press release into the queue, and continued on their merry way, would it have even lasted ten minutes? Personally I'm ashamed that it even got voted up. Wouldn't a more objective report on the subject, written by someone who was actually qualified enough and detached enough to act like a journalist and provide context have been preferable? A story like that was in the queue yesterday, and we voted up this toilet-bowl press release instead.

That's the real shame. Questioning Bruce Peren's identity used to be something he begged for. Now it's trolling. Which way is the wind blowing? I don't know.
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]

Why I Voted +1 (1.00 / 2) (#153)
by MartinS on Thu May 08, 2003 at 08:59:17 AM EST

The response to this article depresses me a little bit. What is it about you sociopathic freaks that prevents you from having a normal discussion about anything. All of you are sick. I noticed two responses to this article that are very telling:

On this I agree, the response has lowered K5 to a level consistent with the worst parts of usenet.

1. People voting up a copied press release just because it was written by a "celeb" from Slashdot.

A broad assumption and in my case and many others wrong, I voted this up for many reasons including.

1) Whether your agree with Bruce or not the introduction of Software Patents in Europe is a current important issue relevant to at subset of K5 readership.

2) The subject organisations miss-representation of this issue was new information, that required further action (blogging) than a simple press release.

3) When posted this was 'breaking-news' item within a time dependent issue and appears to have been posted to K5 before slashdot.

4) I happen to agree with Bruce position on patents and welcomed his attempts to rally further support on the issue in general.

2. People immediately thinking (and with good reason) the article is a troll and its author is an impostor.

Whilst there were some reasons to think this initially, Rusty's post made clear this was the real Bruce Perens and a quick check of Bruces website could quickly confirm this. The idea that perens.com and k5 might both be compromised streches credibility a much further than the assumption this was real.

3. Pathetic geeks trying to "call out" someone that is not even going to bother to read this discussion (again, with good reason).

Um, really ? Why do you assume that he would not return ? We already knew the Bruce has contributed to K5 in the past, and in my experience he is a participant (and active lurker) in other internet communities (i.e. /.). Why assume this does not include here ? Incorrectly as it transpired. Though after the savaging he received from 'pathetic trolls' (not geeks) it would not surprise me if he did not return. Something that would be a bigger loss for K5 than Bruce.

4. The scarcity of even a single insightful or even relevant comment on the issue which causes not a bit of surprise. There is nothing... Not even an acknowledgment that people have read the resolution or anything else except the other trolls.

You are seeking to blame Bruce for failing to be prescience of a K5 troll-storm ?

[ Parent ]

K5 is slashdotting itself into the abyss (2.25 / 12) (#108)
by mami on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:32:12 PM EST

Who would have thought ...

diffs (4.10 / 10) (#109)
by delmoi on Tue May 06, 2003 at 10:39:42 PM EST

Just for the record, here's a diff of this artical and the one that appears on bruce peren's site:

$ diff 1488a.txt 1394a.txt -w
9c9
< trade shows in Europe, saying reasoanble things about Open Source, for the past
---
> trade shows in Europe, saying reasonable things about Open Source, for the past
38,42c38,42
< often exceeds US$500,000. The Open Source developer, an individual working on his own time, won't have the funds to defend himself. He will be compelled to settle with his accuser, regardless of the merits of the case, in order to preserve what assets the plaintiff deigns to leave him. The copyrights of his own software won't be among those assets.
---
> often exceeds US$500,000. Because he can't sustain the cost of his own defense, the Open Source developer will be compelled to settle with his accuser, regardless of the merits of the case, in order to preserve what assets the plaintiff deigns to leave him. The copyrights of his own software won't be among those assets.
49c49
<  system. For example, the IEEE 1488 FireWire standard is encumbered by patentst
---
>  system. For example, the IEEE 1394 FireWire standard is encumbered by patentst
--
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman

IEEE 1488 ??? (none / 0) (#158)
by runlevel0 on Thu May 08, 2003 at 03:07:09 PM EST

So I thought IEEE 1488 would stand for the New 'FireWire': take a piece of steel wire, put glue on it and then put it on fire with a lighter !!!

I myself patented this as business model some weeks ago !!!

[ Parent ]

Well then. (2.75 / 12) (#111)
by Work on Tue May 06, 2003 at 11:25:29 PM EST

It appears K5 has jumped the shark.

And another one bites the dust.

Insert *end-of-something-good cliche* here.

Read the F...ine document (3.66 / 9) (#117)
by bodrius on Wed May 07, 2003 at 01:15:01 AM EST

I'll let myself be trolled and repost what I have posted in Slashdot already:

Read the damn document.

Taylor signs as the "Open Forum Director", and has as a description "An Initiative to take up market share of Open Source Software(OSS)" or something like that.

IN THE DOCUMENT, he never claims to represent the "community" at large.

He claims to represent the Open Forum, "an initiative yadda yadda...", of which he is DIRECTOR. Maybe he has a point there, in representing the group he directs.

If he is making bigger claims elsewhere, please document them.

If someone is making bigger claims about what he represents, please take the fight to them.

If the "community" fears people misinterpreting the "Open Forum" group as the whole Open Source community, make sure your disagreement is known and vocal.

As it is, the impression an objective observer would get is that the "community" cannot parse a simple document in English (the language of most of the community), and that the "leaders" are willing to make a scandal out of any signed document that doesn't meet their political standards.

All sorts of political causes face supporters that they feel are not representative of their main demographic or even act against their main interests. They deal with them, try to convert them, and at worst try to make public the contradictions; they don't make unfounded accusations of appropriating leadership or whatever because they disagree on some points. That would be childish and arrogant.

I'm too drunk to be coherent right now, so I'll just link to my previously incoherent comments here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=63240&cid=5890341
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=63240&cid=5890549
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=63240&cid=5894576
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=63240&cid=5895027

I would just like to mention that I'm disappointed at the community in general, and Perens in particular.

This is a troll of major proportions, and whether it was authored by the real Perens in Kuro5hin or not, it was authored by the real Perens originally.

It makes Perens look bad, and by the self-appointed leadership he assumes, as well as the undeniable merit he has in the community, makes the OSS/FSF movement look bad.

This kind of simplistic reasoning ( "You're not punk rock, you like X; I'm punk rock! I know X sucks!" ) should be avoided as much as possible.

But of course, I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not representative of the community either. Nor do I pretend to be... let's just be clear on that, just to avoid misunderstandings.
Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...

perens says: (1.33 / 12) (#141)
by turmeric on Wed May 07, 2003 at 02:25:22 PM EST

MICROSOFT GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE

[ Parent ]
Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!! (none / 0) (#163)
by The Turd Report on Thu May 08, 2003 at 06:37:16 PM EST

Wow. +1, FP That is funny.

[ Parent ]
Perens Schmerens. (1.89 / 28) (#119)
by Hired Goons on Wed May 07, 2003 at 01:29:13 AM EST

Does anyone give a crap about this overbloated wind bag?  I'm sure he rates right up there with thos head cases known as ESR and RMS!

PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE FOREVER!!!

FREE == CRAP!
You calling that feature a bug? THWAK

A comment (2.75 / 12) (#120)
by medham on Wed May 07, 2003 at 02:18:12 AM EST

Of those who voted, the -1 voters are the only ones who potentially have any integrity on this site. Some of the set of -1 voters do not, as they're knee-jerkers, but some do. For those, and only those indeed, I salute you. For those about to rock, I would also like to extend my salute.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

People should be put under the GPL (2.42 / 7) (#121)
by sinistar on Wed May 07, 2003 at 02:36:26 AM EST

Think about it.

And furthermore: (2.33 / 21) (#123)
by Bruce Parens on Wed May 07, 2003 at 03:34:09 AM EST

Standard compliance with his accuser, regardless of Software Foundation, and InterForum. InterForum's membership includes a patented algorithms that is a "non-aggression pact" with government decision is director of them use software won't be fatal for damage and has appeared at an industry standards. In correcting the plaintiff deigns to achieve compliance with his own business partners in connection with his own business partners in connection with Microsoft V.P. Craig Mundie at various trade shows in standards can make an appearance by patents present a government without infringing upon the European Legal Affairs Committee holds a vested interest in widespread commercial use software patenting, which has flown on consensus of them use and prosecution could be among those organizations regarding how to restrain them use software patents to evangelize Open Source and Software patents to kill us in widespread commercial use and has appeared at an industry resolution are especially threatened by Microsoft in

"kill us"? (3.60 / 5) (#133)
by A Spineless Liberal Commie on Wed May 07, 2003 at 11:39:14 AM EST

Dude, get a grip.

[ Parent ]
I've had it with the imposters on K5 (2.21 / 14) (#127)
by Richard M StaIIman on Wed May 07, 2003 at 10:00:27 AM EST

Enough is enough. You're not funny. You never were. Stop this nonsense.

ALL patents and copyright laws are bad. (2.75 / 4) (#145)
by Fen on Wed May 07, 2003 at 05:11:21 PM EST

No need to to distinguish...they must all go. Information wants to be free!
--Self.
Yea right (3.00 / 3) (#146)
by AnomymousCoward on Wed May 07, 2003 at 06:29:50 PM EST

Words of wisdom from someone who has never spent a year or four creating a truly unique product. Intellectual property is a good thing, and it needs to be protected.

There will not be any reason for people to produce anything if there are no copyrights protecting others from claiming and profiting from it.

Vobbo.com: video blogs made easy: point click smile
[ Parent ]

Such a tired and lazy argument. (none / 0) (#161)
by Fen on Thu May 08, 2003 at 05:58:12 PM EST

There will not be _any_ reason to produce anything? I suppose people will just sit down at a piano, play a few keys, and start sobbing uncontrollably when they realize they can't copyright what they just.
--Self.
[ Parent ]
WTF? (1.75 / 4) (#151)
by corian on Thu May 08, 2003 at 06:33:08 AM EST

I understand this is a somewhat democratic process, but how did something which was spammed to this site in (at least) three separate story postings manage to get voted to the front page?

heh (5.00 / 1) (#156)
by Work on Thu May 08, 2003 at 10:46:13 AM EST

The democratic process is easy to subvert when trolls create 40 accounts.

[ Parent ]
It's all moot. (2.25 / 4) (#162)
by Trollaxor on Thu May 08, 2003 at 06:02:31 PM EST

They will find proxies, and create new accounts, and act more secretively but still cause just as much "trouble."

False Open Source Representative Calls for EU Software Patents | 172 comments (114 topical, 58 editorial, 0 hidden)
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