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Good News: Pinochet near death.

By 1419 in News
Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:53:45 AM EST
Tags: politics, news (all tags)
Politics

Augusto Pinochet has suffered a heart attack and is near death. He won't be missed.


Augusto Pinochet, ex-dictator of Chile, seized power in 1973 in a military coup. He is, as of this writing, under investigation for the murder-disappearance of two men.

He is also accused of fraud, corruption and human rights abuses, but he is unlikely to stand trial on any of his charges due to poor health.

His dictatorship deposed the democratically elected Salvador Allende, a Marxist. Allende was murdered during this coup. The United States was directly involved in this destruction of Chilean democracy, murder, promotion of dictatorship and the undermining of the Chilean peoples right to choose their own government.

The US policy of overthrowing governments - democratic or not - can be seen here in Chile as well as in the more recent destruction of the government of Iraq. In Chile the US owned copper mines were threatened with nationalization, while in Iraq the strategic commodity of oil was at stake.

In 1990 Chile acquired a democratically elected president, Patricio Aylwin. Pinochet was made a senator for life and given political immunity for his crimes during his climb to power and during his rule.

One of Pinochet's legacies is a series of concentration camps for his enemies, such as the abandoned mining town of Chacabuco.

Pinochet was a monster, whose death will not be mourned any time soon by the families of all of those who were tortured and killed under his murderous regime.

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Poll
Defending US owned coppermines justifies
o Killing democratically elected presidents 17%
o Overthrowing democracies that elect Marxists 12%
o Backing murderous anti-democractic regimes 9%
o Doing nothing, the US had stolen it's share. Win some lose some. 60%

Votes: 41
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o near death
o Chile
o seized power
o poor health
o directly involved
o Chacabuco
o Also by 1419


Display: Sort:
Good News: Pinochet near death. | 87 comments (72 topical, 15 editorial, 0 hidden)
If he won't be missed, why pay attention? (3.00 / 5) (#5)
by United Fools on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 02:34:45 PM EST

Why do you write an article to remind us of him? To make sure we know to miss him?

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
We are witnessing the end of many dictatorships (2.50 / 4) (#7)
by 1419 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 02:50:13 PM EST

and it is good to remember them, even if they aren't to be missed.

I think it's a good way to mark the passing of an era(?) of tyrannical governments.

Still, there are a few left - Cuba for example - where the post dictatorship phase has yet to run its course.

[ Parent ]

Fiji may be about to have yet another Coup (2.66 / 3) (#17)
by livus on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 06:59:47 PM EST

by the way. I couldn't be bothered writing an article, but it's all very interesting.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
Pakistan still has a dictatorship, no? (2.33 / 3) (#19)
by 1419 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 07:08:12 PM EST

and come to think of it so does Burma iirc. Maybe I was premature...

[ Parent ]
Situation in Tonga's still pretty weird too (2.50 / 2) (#22)
by livus on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 07:22:21 PM EST

have you been following that? Then again it's a monarchy but even so. Also in the pasifik, we have good old Thailand.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
Thailand too. (none / 0) (#81)
by For Whom The Bells Troll on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 03:12:22 AM EST

Thailand just had a military coup, although it is perhaps different from the rest in that it is widely popular.

---
The Big F Word.
[ Parent ]
yeah (none / 0) (#82)
by livus on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:42:06 PM EST

I mentioned thailand below, though I never know what the hell to make of it.

I always basically think of Singapore as not-quite-a-democracy either.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

mixed signals eh? (none / 1) (#58)
by Delirium on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:42:26 PM EST

The article seems to lament the U.S.'s "recent destruction of the government of Iraq", but in this comment you say it's good to mark the passing of tyrannical governments. So should we or shouldn't we want tyrannical governments to be destroyed?

[ Parent ]
Generalizations are retarded (none / 0) (#59)
by cburke on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:40:06 AM EST

Don't just turn everything into a yes/no question, because the question "should we or shouldn't we want tyrannical governments to be destroyed" depends on the circumastances and methods and practical results of how the government is destroyed, and what it is replaced with.

At least to anyone who isn't a fucking retard.  Retards don't care, and only care about the yes/no answer and whether or not it suits their ideology.  Smart people care about the individual cases and whether or not it makes sense.

[ Parent ]

Sometimes (2.00 / 2) (#46)
by coillte on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:07:39 PM EST

its life affirming to dance on the graves of swine, as it were.

He will not be mourned is a polite way to say good riddance to the cunt.

And sometimes its good to remember what was such a cunt about someone whose passing we might welcome.

Pol Pot for instance. I'm glad the fuckers dead. History has marked well what a cunt he was.

Its good for the soul. Like running prime ministers out of office, working for an idea you believe in, blashpeming in Britain, or being tried for obscenity if your name is William Burroughs.

Pinochet. Don't let the coffin lid bump you on the ass on the way out.

_____________________
"XVI The Blasted Tower. Here is purification through fire,lightning, flames, war...the eye is the eye of Shiva... the serpent on the right is the symbol of the active will to live,the dove on the left is passive resignation to death"
[ Parent ]

I first (3.00 / 3) (#6)
by ljazbec on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 02:47:46 PM EST

heard of Pinochet when I was like 7 because the drummer of my favorite bandfled from Chile because of Pinochet's antics. (I started listening to that band at 7 because some of their lyrics are humorous and whatnot, juvenile at times. But they also have other, more mature songs. They're German by the way.)

I didn't know what to make of it back then, but whatever. To tell the truth, I thought he was dead already, but I guess I just confused him with Pol Pot. Can I ask why they gave him political immunity?

By the way, my math teacher in 8th grade looked a lot like Pinochet. He reeked of beer and tobacco so having him teach us was very pleasant. He was British but his last name was, literally, French. Go figure.

Part (3.00 / 5) (#11)
by Ward57 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 04:06:10 PM EST

of his "step down and hand over power to a democracy" agreement was immunity.

[ Parent ]
Monster /nt (2.00 / 3) (#8)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 03:16:14 PM EST


--
motormouthmachinery has a CRITICAL MASS OF SHIT for brains
- army of phred


Come on... 1419's not that bad... (3.00 / 3) (#36)
by givemegmail111 on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:29:01 AM EST



--
McDonalds: i'm lovin' it
Start your day tastefully with a Sausage, Egg & Cheese McGriddle, only at McDonalds.
Rusty fix my sig, dammit!
[ Parent ]
They ought to fix him up though (2.50 / 4) (#9)
by ksandstr on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 03:27:59 PM EST

So that he can be put to trial and the rest of his cronies, you know, the ones that remain, can be flushed out and put to trial in turn. Who cares if life in prison for him would mean a handful of months rather than years? The process is no longer, nor should it be, about him alone.

Could get embarrassing for the US though, even more so than it has already been. What with the "champion of democracy" thing and all that.

Fin.

Kamm ki pa gar (none / 0) (#80)
by o reor on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 03:12:00 AM EST

(in breton language : "the dog limps when it wants to"). It's amazing to notice how many times this guy has been brought close to being judged, but just a few days before he should have appeared in court, he usually falls ill (heart strokes, bad flus and whatnot), just to feel a lot better when it turns out that due to his poor condition, the court decides to postpone his appearing.

[ Parent ]
So finally dying is karma, then? (none / 0) (#84)
by ethereal on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 06:18:49 PM EST

Or he's just getting better at faking it?

--

Stand up for your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and State
[ Parent ]

AWW (3.00 / 7) (#10)
by Ruston Rustov on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 03:50:54 PM EST


                    ###############
                  ################# #
                 # MILTON FRIEDMAN # #
                #     1912-2006     # #
               #        BEREN        # #
               #  AUGUSTO PINOCHET   # #
               #      1915-2006      # #
               #       LUTHIEN       # #
               #     ##  ### ###     # #
               #     #.#  #  #.#     # #
               #     # # ### #       # #
      vV,,V\Vv########################,vVv/,Vvhjwv,/

I had had incurable open sores all over my feet for sixteen years. The doctors were powerless to do anything about it. I told my psychiatrist that they were psychosomatic Stigmata - the Stigmata are the wounds Jesus suffered when he was nailed to the cross. Three days later all my sores were gone. -- Michael Crawford
Maybe tomorrow. -- Michael Crawford
As soon as she has her first period, fuck your daughter. -- localroger

He's 91. (3.00 / 12) (#12)
by Wise Cracker on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 04:28:58 PM EST

He's led a long, relatively healthy life. He's outlived his victims by *decades*. And it will only be a few years after his death before people put his mug on T-shirts and wistfully recall the days when there was certainty and order in Chile.

There may be justice in the world, but this isn't it.
--
Caesars come, and Caesars go, but Newton lives forever

Not (3.00 / 3) (#13)
by ljazbec on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 04:32:44 PM EST

only relatively healthy, but full of delights and luxury too, I imagine.

[ Parent ]
+1FP (2.60 / 5) (#14)
by Kasreyn on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 04:42:27 PM EST

Will help scroll MMM's trash off.

Btw, it's not such good news. I was hoping he would live long enough to be executed for his crimes.


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
That's totally uncalled for (3.00 / 5) (#16)
by MotorMachineMercenary on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 06:34:20 PM EST

I mean, you can dislike my article, vote it down, even diarize about how crappy it was. But to wish incarceration or execution upon me is just too much.

--
Keep banging those rocks together, MMM!
- Kasreyn


[ Parent ]
hahah. funny. /nt (none / 1) (#20)
by 1419 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 07:09:58 PM EST



[ Parent ]
lol (none / 1) (#21)
by Kasreyn on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 07:10:20 PM EST

I've never been considered sigworthy before. I feel honored.

Very well, then. You can have a stay of execution. But only if you get down there and get to Pinochet before the reaper does. :P


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
If he hasn't been executed by now... /nt (none / 1) (#18)
by 1419 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 07:07:26 PM EST



[ Parent ]
What did he ever do to you? (3.00 / 4) (#27)
by givemegmail111 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 09:34:44 PM EST

nt

--
McDonalds: i'm lovin' it
Start your day tastefully with a Sausage, Egg & Cheese McGriddle, only at McDonalds.
Rusty fix my sig, dammit!
Nothing. Is reality such that we are simply (none / 1) (#34)
by 1419 on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 11:54:53 PM EST

confined to the world of personal experience?

I've heard about Pinochet for some time, and I offer him to you, now, for judgement.

Enjoy.

[ Parent ]

well thanks for digging up such an obscure fellow (none / 0) (#56)
by Delirium on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:33:42 PM EST

I would never have heard about him without that fine detective work! Next up you'll be taking such controversial stances as "Hitler was bad" and "I also don't like Stalin".

[ Parent ]
Apparently so (none / 0) (#65)
by 1419 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:26:54 AM EST

But this decidedly obvious target was enough to generate considerable discussion (which was an indirect goal) but lead to not one but two mentions of Hitler.

I am reminded of that  USENET thing about nazis and flamewars.


[ Parent ]

Pinochet is such a good upstanding Liberal (1.77 / 9) (#29)
by Orion Blastar Again on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 10:06:47 PM EST

That is why he was picked to run Chile under a dictatorship. Liberals claimed he brought Democracy to Chile, and order and peace to Chile via his progressive views and social programs. He rose to power via a military coup like many great left-wing leaders have done like Fidel Castro. Pinochet was so advanced in his left-wing agenda that he was criticized as being neoliberal in his government and economics by modern liberals. Neoliberalism promotes liberal global trade like Thomas L. Friedman and other liberals had promoted. It is left-wing in nature, and very liberal. Much like that of another Liberal, Adolph Hitler. Joseph Kennedy supported Hitler's neoliberalism and suggested to FDR that Hitler be appeased so that we can avoid losing more troops in WWII and we just let Hitler keep the land he took over and sign a peace treaty with him and forgive him all of his crimes against humanity and cut and run. The same liberal thinking is being used for the war in Iraq, and Ted Kennedy, like his father Joseph says we should just appease Osama bin Laden and let him keep Iraq and Afghanistan and other nations and just sign a peace treaty with him so our troops can stop being killed and we can pull our troops out of the middle-east and leave them alone. Bill Clinton had the same idea with Pinochet, and left him alone because he was a fellow neoliberal.

Of course it took God, to give Pinochet an heart attack and take him out the natural way, because everyone else was a pussy who only appeased Pinochet and left him in power.

This post was generated using the full power of sarcasm!

Learn how to be a liberal.
I can't believe it's not Liberalism!
"Thanks for the pointers on using the internet. You're links to uncylopedia have turned my life around." -zenador

(3) confused rambling (3.00 / 2) (#44)
by MrHanky on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 06:35:47 AM EST

It's not sarcasm, Mr. Blastar.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
[ Parent ]
You got me there. (none / 1) (#52)
by Orion Blastar Again on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 08:11:14 PM EST

I can't believe it's not sarcasm!

Learn how to be a liberal.
I can't believe it's not Liberalism!
"Thanks for the pointers on using the internet. You're links to uncylopedia have turned my life around." -zenador

[ Parent ]
You, sir, are worse than Hitler (2.25 / 8) (#32)
by the spins on Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 11:16:49 PM EST

and if I ever meet you, I WILL KICK YOUR ASS.

 _
( )
 X
/ \ SUPPORT THE DEL GRIFFITH MODBOMBING CAMPAIGN

if i ever meet you, (none / 0) (#62)
by th0m on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:12:01 AM EST

i will greet you.

[ Parent ]
good riddance to the asshole (2.33 / 3) (#38)
by circletimessquare on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 01:13:44 AM EST

and maybe, hopefully, when the asshole is dead, some people (hint, hint, wink, wink) will be able to look at their calendar and see that it is

2006!

the cold war is over people

for 15 years

some other stuff is happening in the world right now

some new problems

maybe you've noticed?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

-1, who cares (3.00 / 8) (#39)
by trhurler on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 01:43:01 AM EST

The guy's ancient and has power over nothing at this point. Whether he lives or dies is completely irrelevant to anyone but him, his family, and his friends - and idiots.

Sure, he did nasty things in power. If he lives, he'll eventually face one of these kangaroo courts we call war crimes tribunals, which will undoubtedly find him guilty (which he is, but still the fact is any legal proceeding would be a sham, as such things always are regardless of guilt,) and then due to his health, nothing will come of it. If he dies, obviously nothing will come of that.

The history with the US is both irrelevant to the present situation (which reveals something about you, but not about the situation,) and also completely lopsided. Sure the US basically installed the guy - because he was anti-Soviet. The Soviets did the same thing we did - both sides engaged in this behavior in numerous countries. That basically WAS the cold war. The victory in which, by the way, you ought to be grateful for, being as it is the only reason you even have the legal right to talk about such history openly.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

The ends justify the means. right? n/t (3.00 / 2) (#41)
by brain in a jar on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 04:43:10 AM EST


Life is too important, to be taken entirely seriously.
[ Parent ]

You should note (none / 0) (#76)
by trhurler on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:40:11 PM EST

that I am not suggesting a future course of action. The deeds described are done. The only question is, what was the outcome, and how should we regard that?

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
The two can't really be separated (none / 0) (#83)
by brain in a jar on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:20:28 AM EST

if things like putting Pinochet in power are judged by the public or by history to have been reasonable decisions, it makes it much more likely that similar decisions will be made in the future.

Like orwell said, he who controls the past controls the present.


Life is too important, to be taken entirely seriously.
[ Parent ]

No (none / 1) (#85)
by trhurler on Mon Dec 11, 2006 at 11:40:38 PM EST

First of all, it is one thing to say putting him in power was a good or bad idea, and another thing to say it worked out well or didn't. By the standards of Central and South America, Pinochet is a resounding success. He can take responsibility for an awful lot of the good that exists in Chile today, and in any case killed a lot fewer people, even by the wildest and most improbable "counts," than an awful lot of current and former rulers who are and/or were beloved of the left that despises Pinochet so much.

Second, it REALLY DID work out well. Say what you will, but for all their successes both as dictators and elected rulers in terms of gaining power, the leftists of South America have been dismal failures in terms of what they've done to their countries. Pinochet was not.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
YFI:US History 101 (2.75 / 4) (#45)
by nostalgiphile on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:00:49 AM EST

the history of US involvement in Chile is critical to any understanding of Pinochet's life and career as a thug and, moreover, should remind us of how much evil the CIA has done in the past, by installing fascist thugs like him around the world.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
IAWTP /nt (none / 0) (#63)
by 1419 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:04:52 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Um (none / 1) (#77)
by trhurler on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:40:32 PM EST

What you just said is completely irrelevant to what I said. Nice job.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
Speaking of kangaroo courts what about (3.00 / 3) (#69)
by 1419 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:57:46 PM EST

Saddam Hussein's?

[ Parent ]
What about it? (3.00 / 2) (#75)
by trhurler on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:39:25 PM EST

Sure, it would have been more honest to just shoot him where they found him, but his trial has gotten several lawyers killed, so I can't say it is a bad thing.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
+1, not about compleat assholes (3.00 / 3) (#40)
by nostalgiphile on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:40:31 AM EST

Uh, and it's timely news too.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
Best news I've heard all week (2.75 / 8) (#42)
by bodza on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 05:06:06 AM EST

But the real party will be when his good friend Maggie dies.
--
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Émile Zola

I'll drink to that one! (none / 0) (#51)
by Wen Jian on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 04:54:24 PM EST

Maggie Thatcher, Milk Snatcher!
It was an experiment in lulz. - Rusty
[ Parent ]
If you love the Soviet Union so much, why don't (2.11 / 9) (#43)
by V on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 05:41:51 AM EST

you go there? I heard Mr. Putin is busy bringing it back.

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens

The (2.25 / 4) (#47)
by ljazbec on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:21:10 PM EST

USSR is not the true USSR if the leader has virtually no facial hair.

[ Parent ]
Addendum: (none / 1) (#48)
by ljazbec on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:21:59 PM EST

and it's not a union with only one country in it, now is it.

[ Parent ]
well it's still a federation (none / 1) (#57)
by Delirium on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 10:39:55 PM EST

They've still got Chechnya and Dagestan and various other such constituent Republics and Oblasts and whatnot. My favorite one is the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, in which Jews constitute 1.2% of the population. Also, it isn't autonomous.

[ Parent ]
My my my my (none / 0) (#72)
by ljazbec on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:52:33 PM EST

the interesting things one finds out every day. Jewish oblast bordering on China - an alternative to Israel. The sands vs. siberia, oh my what choice!

[ Parent ]
I won't be rejoicing (3.00 / 2) (#49)
by nebbish on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:40:08 PM EST

Because it'll mean the bastard escaped.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

Charlie love Pinochet! (2.25 / 4) (#50)
by Washing Machine Charlie on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:53:48 PM EST

Pinochet is good children's book teach about lying. When Pinochet lies his nose grow, when he tell truth, his nose shrinks. One day he run away from home, make him father sad. Then Pinochet and bad boys turn into donkeys when they join the Democratic party. Pinochet's father Gepeto is Neocon Republican but go looking for son Pinochet. Pinochet get into trouble, and get swallow by whale. Whale swallow Gepeto as well. They use raft wood to start fire make whale throw them up. Everyone save and Pinochet become a real boy and join the Neocon Republicans like father did.

-1: (2.40 / 5) (#53)
by gr3y on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 08:46:33 PM EST

Events in the past cannot be traced to the war in Iraq.

I am a disruptive technology.

come on man, get with the program (2.00 / 2) (#54)
by circletimessquare on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 09:16:15 PM EST

the british divided the spoils of the ottoman empire irrespective of ethnic geography. they drew up the borders of iraq ignoring ethnic groups

70 years ago

doesn't matter

that historical fact means that the british are 100% responsible for everything that happens in iraq today, obviously

get with the program: if a problem in the world today can't be based on a western power, regardless of length of time or indirect creative reasoning, it isn't a problem, or you aren't trying hard enough

the agenda should not be "how can we solve today's problems?"

the agenda should be "why is every problem in the world the west's fault?"

we need to wipe our hands of our shared human responsibility for the state of the world. if we can find a creative way to reason how somebody else is to blame for the problem, we can then forget about actually solving said problem

because we don't care about solving the world's problems. we care about pursuing a vendetta against the west. that's more important than actually relieving suffering in this world

so come on man, get with the program

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Tell him to get with the program again. (none / 1) (#71)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:15:21 PM EST

3 times is not nearly enough.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

ok (none / 1) (#73)
by circletimessquare on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 04:53:52 PM EST

get with the program

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
vendettas and injustice (2.00 / 7) (#55)
by circletimessquare on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 09:53:36 PM EST

this is my problem with the author of this story and people like him: they don't seem to actually care about the suffering of people under pinochet

well, they do, but only as insofar as they can use that suffering in pursuance of their true aim: prosecution of the usa

which is fine, prosecute the usa, fuck the usa. but prove to me that righting injustice and relieving suffering is more important to you than pursuing vendettas and apportioning blame

and i can give you a litmus test

about your poll... prove to me you care about injustice more than pursuing vendettas:

there is currently a us owned copper mine doing evil despicable things against the local people and the environment and is in corrupt cohoots with the local government:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0C15F839540C748EDDAB0994DD4044 82

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasberg_mine

now, what pinochet did happened decades ago. and it happened in the cold war, an era of history that has passed us. now, you are one of these types of two people:

person a:

  1. relieving suffering is important foremost
  2. prosecuting the usa is important secondmost

person b:
  1. prosecuting the usa is important foremost
  2. relieving suffering is important secondmostmost

which type of person are you?

is your human conscience more important than your sense of revenge?

does it burn you the usa got away with evil despicable acts in the cold war? it should. but does that moral outrage at events that happened decades ago overwhelm your sense of moral outrage at what is happening right now in the world?

again: is relieving suffering more important to you? or apportioning blame

right now, at this very moment, a us copper mine is doing in indonesia all of the evil you hate the usa for doing in chile decades ago

so prove to me that justice is more important to you than revenge: forget about pinochet. think about it

here is a link:

http://www.google.com/search?q=grasberg+freeport

prove to me, prove to k5, prove to yourself, prove to the world, that the search for justice is more important to you than the pursuit of vendettas. prove to me you actually care about changing the world RIGHT NOW and relieving suffering in it RIGHT NOW, rather than pursuing revenge and incrimination from a dead era: obsess about freeport, forget about pinochet

everything is the same: copper mine, local corruption in politics, oppression of local populace, pollution of environment. the only differenc eis that pinochet was decades ago, and freeport is RIGHT NOW

what kind of person are you?

a person with a human conscience?

or a person with a grudge?

which matters more to you? solving problems? or approtioning blame

make up your mind, adjust your focus, make a real difference

get your ass out of the past

make a difference in the world and its problems as they exist RIGHT NOW


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

You bring up an interesting point (or points) (2.50 / 2) (#64)
by 1419 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:15:17 AM EST

The actual motivation for my story was more in line with the idea from a political philosopher and a moral philosopher who, iirc, say basically the same thing:

1)Find examples of the good, praise and reward them (in progress)

2)Find examples of the bad, punish and condemn them.

Pinochet clearly lies in category number 2.

That it embarasses the US is good as well if the US has done something it deserves to be embarassed for. I actually was quite happy that the US was backing democracy in Iraq. About fucking time. That it did so with such incredible stupidity is a huge tragedy of monumental dimensions. Tens of thousands have already died as a result and more will come.

Your "forced dilemma" is a weak tactic in enjoining support for your cause. Might I suggest other, more effective, methods?

Gently and consistently educate people about the facts of the case in a non-inflammatory (and ostensibly neutral) manner. Post news stories relating to this case (the k5 NEWS queue moves very slowly - is there no news?).

Find allies in your cause and embrace them. Your address to me suggests that a)you'd like to have me as an ally or b)you want to show yourself to be "the better leftist" but frankly I can't be sure. Work on developing a more winning line.

The left is filled with catastrophizing and ones-upmanship. I think that is why it largely fails. People want hope. They want anger. They want money or gain.

So make me angry - not at you - but at your target and give me something to gain by attacking them.

That's my two cents. You didn't ask for it, but I think it's good advice.

[ Parent ]

well said (none / 1) (#67)
by circletimessquare on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:15:27 PM EST

but "Gently and consistently" is bullshit

you said you got angry

good

if you're not angry at something in this world, you're not really alive

angry at me? whatever. anger is malleable. it's target shifts over time. i'd rather slap you across the face and say "wake the fuck up asshole, you're obsessing over dead history when people are suffering right NOW"

i don't have time or the inclination for niceties. i prefer hard ugly truths to placid lies. too many people prefer the latter

fuck. that.

talking "Gently and consistently" is a load of fucking crap. you're an adult, not a child. deal with it


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Well maybe this would make a good advice (none / 0) (#68)
by 1419 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:56:15 PM EST

article.

There are, I am saying, two phases:

1)Edu-prop - educational propaganda ("just the facts ma'am") and
2)Agit-prop ("kill the evil bastards and steal all their money before they kill your babies!")

I think anger is good only in the short haul (Agit-prop). People can't run forever on anger.

I am not saying "You need to speak gently and consistently to 1419" I am saying you need to propagandize gently and consistently to build up the edu-prop to a position where agit-prop will be effective.

Mao called this "create public opinion, seize power".

Other people have called it "winning hearts [Agit-prop] and Minds [Edu-prop]"

It is a classic anarchist error to think you can wage a war solely on emotion. Correct action requires discipline and planning, coordination and sustained effort.

You want to win the war don't you? Or just a battle? And is this the battle?

[ Parent ]

i don't know (none / 1) (#70)
by circletimessquare on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:11:54 PM EST

i've been angry all my life

i don't really doubt it can propel movements for a long, long time

frustration and rage are pretty common in this world


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

The reason the left hates Pinochet (2.42 / 7) (#60)
by foon on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:04:58 AM EST

By the most skewed and biased counts, arranged by his opponents specifically to discredit his government, around 3000 people were killed during the entire 17 year Pinochet administration.  That works out to less than 200 per year.  It pales in comparison to the death toll under contemporary military regimes in Argentina and elsewhere in Latin America, and is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the millions slaughtered under Communist leaders such as Lenin, Mao, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, etc.  Yet whenever the left wishes to pick out one hate figure, around which to collect all of the anger and hate they feel for capitalism and America, the man they choose is Gen. Augusto Pinochet.  One must ask the question:  Why?

The answer is because of the stunning success of Pinochet's regime.  His success, and the success of modern, democratic Chile that he made possible, stands in direct repudiation of all of their failed principles.  They could heap deserved criticism on the idiotic leadership of Somoza, Duvalier, Mobutu or any number of other truly incompetent right-wing dictators, but instead, perhaps out of psychotic frustration, they try vainly to wipe away the indelible mark of a man who undeniably made his country a better place, and showed the entire world a way forward from the twin perils of Communism in the Soviet world, and economic stagnation and moral collapse, brought on by over-regulation and the cultural decadence of the 1960s, in the West.

Consider the situation of Chile before Pinochet took over.  The economy was in a free fall, leaving many in what had been one of the most prosperous country in the region out of work, due to Allende's socialist policies.  Inspired by Allende's seizure of power, militant groups had emerged pushing the government to go even further in its left-wing "revolution" and completely eliminate private property and all individual rights in a Chinese-style cultural revolution.  On the other side, business owners and the leaders of civil society wanted an end to the economic terror and a return of responsible government.  The country was on the brink of civil war, virtually ungovernable, and Allende was either powerless, or unwilling, to stop it.

Pinochet took over quickly and with a minimum of violence.  There were no riots in the streets or guerilla rebellions in the countryside:  A small number of agitators were quickly arrested, preventing large-scale disturbances, and the remainder of the population was left unharmed.  Like a skilled surgeon, Gen. Pinochet cut away only the most diseased tissue, so that the living body could fully heal.  Rather than the populist and socialist mirages of the past, he brought in professional economists to quickly turn around the economy.  Strict controls on political activity were necessary at first, to prevent the reemergence of militance, but gradually these controls were lifted, and democracy was restored.  Chile today is far more prosperous, and far more democratic, than it was before Pinochet.  Now the success of his policies extends beyond Chile's borders:  Many fast-growing Asian economies credit their success to what can only be described as the "Pinochet model".

That is the man who is being ridiculed here -- one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century, and someone who makes me proud of my country, the USA, for helping to bring him to power.

AND THE TRAINS RAN ON TIME (3.00 / 2) (#61)
by A Bore on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:07:54 AM EST

THAT'S SURELY WORTH SOMETHING?

[ Parent ]
-1 Troll (none / 1) (#74)
by flimflam on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 06:13:12 PM EST

N/T
-- I am always optimistic, but frankly there is no hope. --Hosni Mubarek
[ Parent ]
Is it a troll if (none / 0) (#78)
by trhurler on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:20:18 PM EST

it is true?:)

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
Nicely argued. Totally wrong of course, but nicely (2.00 / 2) (#79)
by 1419 on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 01:24:23 AM EST

argued.

If the so called "right" ever wanted to obtain a shred of moral authority it would have to reject anti-democratic leaders outright.

The "right" cannot attack "left" human rights violating dictatorships if they then vehemently defend "right" dictatorships. It's as if they condemn vanilla but not chocolate ice cream.

It is classic apologism to frame a horror by saying, in essence "there are worse". One guy murders ten people, but "hey, more have been killed elsewhere by others!" is not a fucking defense to any sane, reasonable, intelligent person.

Referring to Pinochet's murdered victims as "diseased tissue" is absolutely unacceptable.

Pinochet is near death and God will will have no mercy on his soul.

[ Parent ]

May He Burn in Hell (none / 0) (#86)
by czolgosz on Tue Dec 12, 2006 at 10:53:33 PM EST

That is the man who is being ridiculed here -- one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century

Except of course for George W. Bush, who took so many of his ideas from Pinochet. The great Pinochet the torturer, thief, coward, murderer and jumped-up idiot with a fondness for uniforms.


In a less fucked-up world they'd both have been behind bars and we'd all have been better off.




Why should I let the toad work squat on my life? --Larkin
[ Parent ]
WIPO (1.50 / 4) (#66)
by Nimey on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:43:43 PM EST

All of the above.
--
Never mind, it was just the dog cumming -- jandev
You Sir, are an Ignorant Motherfucker. -- Crawford
I am arguably too manic to do that. -- Crawford
I already fuck my mother -- trane
Nimey is right -- Blastard
i am in complete agreement with Nimey -- i am a pretty big deal

Kissinger and Pinochet (none / 1) (#87)
by nostalgiphile on Fri Dec 15, 2006 at 11:16:33 PM EST

Saw this over at CommonDreams.org, and thought it might be relevant:
On Sept. 11, 2001, as the planes hit the towers of the World Trade Center, on our daily broadcast of "Democracy Now!," we were looking at the connection between terrorism and Sept. 11, 1973. It was on that day that the democratically elected government of Chilean President Salvador Allende was overthrown in a violent coup, and the forces of Pinochet rose to power. The coup was supported by the U.S. government. Henry Kissinger, national security adviser and U.S. secretary of state, summed up the policy this way:

"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."
What a prick, huh? Anyway, the article, by Amy Goodman, goes on to call on journalists to question Kissinger about (his and) US involvement--like, for the record, before he too kicks it.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
Good News: Pinochet near death. | 87 comments (72 topical, 15 editorial, 0 hidden)
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