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[P]
The Tibetan Uprising and Next Week's Taiwan Presidential Elections

By N0574 in News
Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:14:11 AM EST
Tags: Tibet, Taiwan, China, elections, neo-colonialism, sinicization, freedom, anti-secession law (all tags)
Freedom

"Asia's governments come in two broad varieties: young fragile democracies--and older, fragile authoritarian regimes." - Paul A. Samuelson

Since Taiwan, the "democratic entity" also known as the Republic of China, claims reluctant sovereignty over the territory of Tibet also, this weekend's uprising in Lhasa has been of particular interest to us here in this "rebel province." The Tibetan uprising is also of serious concern here because next week's (03/22) crucial presidential contest, between pro-unification Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) leader Ma Ying-jeou and the pro-independence Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) candidate Frank Hsieh, could easily be turn upside down by China's current actions in the "Tibetan Autonomous Region."


Taiwan's current President, Chen Shui-bian, put the issue of Tibet in sharp focus today when he blasted China's murderous crackdown in Tibet, reminding us that
"three years ago, after China passed its Anti-Secession Law, within three months Taiwan succeeded in getting three million Taiwanese people to take the streets to protest the law. At the time, while the whole world supported Taiwan and condemned China, the Chairmen of both the KMT and PFP [People First Party] went to China to kowtow and eliminate international pressure on the PRC. On the 14th of March [2005] the Anti-Secession Law was issued, and now, exactly 3 years later, the PRC cracks down on Tibet's commemoration activities. Everyone needs to realize that Taiwan cannot rely on China."
The DPP VP candidate Su Tseng-chang has echoed Chen's sentiments, saying that "China's unreasonable oppression of Tibet is a test of China's 'Anti-Secession Law'--if they get away with this in Tibet now, in the future they can do it to Taiwan." Indeed, this is exactly the message the Chinese will send to the world in Tibet. Frank Hsieh, meanwhile, related the issue of Tibet to the "one China market" proposed by the KMT candidate:
"Why do we want to prevent a common market or a 'one-China' market?  The example of Tibet makes it clear. Their [Chinese] people keep coming, and when people keep coming we have problem of human rights. If you arrest them it's called discrimination, and their women and children will have no way of defending themselves. If he strikes out at us he calls it 'righteous', but if we resist him he calls it 'violence.' What they say is called 'reasonable,' but what we say is called 'bullshit.'"
Opening borders and markets with a country like China means dealing directly with the kind of despotic military behavior we are seeing carried out in Tibet today.

KMT candidate Ma Ying-jeou, the darling of the Chinese Communist Party, condemned the use of violence in Tibet, saying that "the Republic of China's [Taiwan] has only one position on Tibet, which is that it is autonomous and it's people have their own customs and religion which should be respected." Ma's phrasing is interesting considering the position of "China" (ROC) is that it is officially part of China but autonomous. In recent years ethnic Tibetans have watched in dismay as their "autonomous" land has undergone "Sinicization" by the imported Han Chinese colonizers who are getting rich off of tourism there.

Ma, the Han Chinese nationalist favored to win next week's election, has recently riled Taiwan pundits by announcing plans for a "one China" free market similar to NAFTA, and plans to allow  3 million mainland Chinese tourists per year into Taiwan. He has also suggested (but has since recanted on) replacing Taiwan's population of "foreign," southeast Asian labourers  with Chinese ones. Moreover, he calls for the admission of thousands of Chinese students into Taiwan's already beleaguered university system. In short, he and his party want the full-scale radical re-sinicization of Taiwan.*

The protests in Lhasa, which were to commemorate the Tibetan uprising of 1959, when the Tibetans failed to avoid forcible, illegal colonization by the People's Liberation Army. Yet after several days the protests have begun to evolve into a spontaneous uprising. In hindsight the crackdown was foreshadowed by China's encouragement of the Myanmar junta's crackdown on Burmese monks back in September, and a reminder that China is still very much an authoritarian regime. At present, at least 100 protesters have died in Lhasa, which is under curfew and locked down under military jurisdiction. The PRC has issued a Monday deadline for the protesters to surrender, but if history is any yardstick most of them will face a firing squad if they do.

From Taiwan, via K5, we can only wish the Tibetan independence forces good luck, hope that Taiwan never has to experience this level of colonial degradation, and pray that no 'Lhasa Massacre' occurs in the next 48 hours.

---


* Non-native "Mainlanders"--the backbone of the KMT--make up only about 12% of the population of Taiwan (if we don't include a sizeable population of Chinese mail-order brides who are not allowed to vote), and largely believe it is the historical destiny of their race to "re-unite" Taiwan with China by whatever means possible.

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2008 Tibetan Uprising
o Good timing. 38%
o Bad timing. 7%
o Only the Tibetans can say. 53%

Votes: 13
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o "democrati c entity"
o reluctant sovereignty
o uprising in Lhasa
o particular interest to us
o next week's
o crucial presidential contest
o China's current actions
o put the issue of Tibet in sharp focus
o Anti-Seces sion Law
o three million Taiwanese
o went to China
o echoed Chen's sentiments
o related the issue of Tibet
o saying that
o "Sinicizat ion"
o "one China" free market
o radical re-sinicization of Taiwan
o Tibetan uprising
o crackdown on Burmese monks
o At present
o 100 protesters have died
o issued a Monday deadline
o Also by N0574


Display: Sort:
The Tibetan Uprising and Next Week's Taiwan Presidential Elections | 104 comments (100 topical, 4 editorial, 3 hidden)
This is why the internet is such a problem (2.00 / 9) (#4)
by lonelyhobo on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:34:07 AM EST

It's impossible to find unbiased stories or even stories in a larger context.  This is a good example about the link aggregator reddit.com.  But it's the same with this story.  We have an author who is so wholeheartedly biased on the subject that it's impossible to draw an informed conclusion about it.  It's why you see nothing but 'the sky is falling' stories on the internet.  The people with the biggest vendetta and personal grudge about the subject are the ones who take the time to write.

In conclusion, -1.  Thanks for fucking up the internet some more.

care to show me an unbiased report? (1.62 / 8) (#5)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:41:33 AM EST

or would just prefer to continue regurgitating this same stream of vomit vitriol over and over again? You might want to learn about constructive criticism someday too, and, for example, point out where the articles you comment on are uninformed or biased if that's your criticism. Or, alternatively, you might just consider shutting the fuck up for once.

Also, I'm fairly certain you won't find any news on the internets at this time that links next weeks election with the Tibet massacre.

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]

oh so you're admitting you're (2.14 / 7) (#6)
by lonelyhobo on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:04:33 PM EST

posting unsubstantiated garbage?  Thanks for making my fucking point.

Have you ever considered why you're so pissed off about it, and that maybe that's why you shouldn't be posting this?

[ Parent ]

you're becoming increasingly incoherent (1.90 / 10) (#7)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:35:04 PM EST

actually the article stands on its own and is copiously substantiated and documented, but if you're angry because you spent a whole year studying mandarin in college and still can't read a word of Chinese I can understand, that must suck. (But it's not my article's problem).

If you want to whine ignorance, however, you can go ask sye or BJH or someone who is competetnt in Chinese to verify the sources/translations. I don't much care, but the reason we have an edit queue is so the articles can be improved by constructive criticism. Something you obviously don't give a damn about.

Also, you're mistaken on yet another point: I'm not angry, I'm passionate.

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]

lmao (1.66 / 6) (#8)
by lonelyhobo on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:35:59 PM EST

It was a semester, and I can read plenty of words.  My problem is your complete and inherent bias that you acknowledge.  I'm saying this is exactly why you shouldn't be posting this article.  It's obvious from every fucking one of your diaries and articles that you're butthurt over china and you'll go to whatever lengths it'll take to try to stir up shit about them.

So again, fuck off.

[ Parent ]

so when are you going to show me (1.50 / 6) (#9)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:40:32 PM EST

this example of an unbiased report/article so I can learn from it, master hobo?

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
that's irrelevant (1.85 / 7) (#10)
by lonelyhobo on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 01:43:48 PM EST

The substance of your message is being detracted from because we all know that this is the sort of enraged crap about China that you post.  All the time.  Always. Over and over.  Again and again.

So it's left to the reader to decide whether this is more bolstering crap or whether there's an actual issue.  And, since as you said, there's absolutely no coverage of this, I'm only left with one conclusion.

[ Parent ]

has it occured to you that (1.62 / 8) (#11)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:00:07 PM EST

maybe you have a bias against bias? I think this the basic flaw in your logic--you believe that there are people out there writing things (like what, wikipedia articles?) from a totally unbiased perspective when in fact such a thing hardly ever happens.

Anyways, sure dickface, I do have numerous biases and don't mind telling you I do support Tibetan independence, the Green Party, the complete superiority of film noir over all other forms of cinema, basketball for the vertically challenged, and countless other things I may or may not torture you with K5 articles about these things some day. After all, I am a K5 'consumer' now and this is only my 2nd article on this $5 acct. I damn well intend to get my money's worth with it! 8^)

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]

has it occurred to you that (1.28 / 7) (#12)
by lonelyhobo on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:03:25 PM EST

YHBT

take it easy nosta. :)

[ Parent ]

hey, as Chairman Mao said (1.66 / 6) (#13)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:05:07 PM EST

if I don't go to hell, who will? CTS isn't biting :(

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
biased info is better than no info (2.00 / 4) (#34)
by circletimessquare on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:19:48 PM EST

yay internet

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
this isn't reddit (1.50 / 1) (#50)
by LilDebbie on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 11:56:35 AM EST

you are expected to make your own conclusions and, i know this is a hard one, remember that google is your fucking friend. if you make a conclusion based solely on a one-sided argument then you are fucking retarded and should stay at places like reddit.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
the point is (1.50 / 1) (#52)
by lonelyhobo on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:53:55 PM EST

that there's not a fair sample of information on the internet.  You just get a shitload of extremist crap.  The news is the same way.

[ Parent ]
durr news is biased (none / 1) (#56)
by LilDebbie on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:59:31 PM EST

slanted film at -11

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
re: news (none / 0) (#58)
by raduga on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:36:47 PM EST

haugh went teh caek aeting caturday?

[ Parent ]
the caek was delicious and moist (none / 1) (#59)
by LilDebbie on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:47:42 PM EST

the cops honked for us and passersby would fuck with the scios for us (it helped that many of them were drunk being paddy's day and all).

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
How do we know this isn't a Neocon plot? (1.62 / 8) (#14)
by Social Democrat on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:09:10 PM EST

It's in the Neocons' best interest to take down China and have new states carved out of it so how do we know these protesting Tibetans aren't just doing the bidding of Neocons who have promised them an independent state?  The American CIA has had a long history of supporting Tibetans against China so this is a very valid question to ask.

With the summer olympics in China this year I am certain we will see Tibetans, East Turkestanese, (Inner) Mongolians, and others all try and riot against Chinese government.  This will all seem to be a spontaneous demonstration of people wanting to be independent, but in reality it is a carefully orchestrated plot to undermine China.

------
The US is fucked up, diseased, mentally unstable & psychologically unhealthy. Its food supply is tainted, polluted, & full of chemical crap. Even worse, the US is trying to ruin the rest of the world.

dude, IHBT? (1.85 / 7) (#15)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:14:03 PM EST

this social democrat jig is getting kinda old. It's a lot more fun when you do teh feminazi trolls as V.--or did you lose your password too?

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
i have bad breath (1.66 / 3) (#33)
by circletimessquare on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:19:09 PM EST

must be a neocon plot


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
just a product of poor parentage // (2.00 / 3) (#42)
by The Hanged Man on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 12:33:16 AM EST


-------------

Dificile est saturam non scribere - Juvenal
[ Parent ]
Sorry, but (1.77 / 9) (#16)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:54:22 PM EST

"Free Tibet" stuff is just too much feelgood activism for me. It's a bit like protesting whaling: totally gay.

I see you think of activism (1.50 / 6) (#17)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:06:50 PM EST

as a form of attitude or style--in a typically banal postmodernist way. God I wish the future didn't belong to your kind. You give slack a bad name.

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
I see it for what it is (1.28 / 7) (#19)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:43:03 PM EST

And sometimes, it's just fashion. The Tibet case especially so, with their exotic and spiritually superior ways, attracting Hollywood has-beens and Beastie Boys like flies to a fresh turd. Sure China's involvement in Tibet is despicable and brutal, it's just that my actions against it can only have no effect whatsoever, reducing politics to mere gestures and advertisements for myself. And that, my friend, is just too bourgeois for my style.

I'm not going to get involved unless I can cause some actual trouble.

[ Parent ]

you see it for what it is (1.75 / 4) (#32)
by circletimessquare on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:18:36 PM EST

in your rich western coccoon, as a rich western child, who has no idea what real suffering is, with retarded fashionable ideas and your sneaker fashions being your biggest concern

you go see what "free tibet" is like in tibet, then get back to us how out of fashion the subject matter is, child

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Part right (1.00 / 2) (#44)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:53:11 AM EST

There's only so much you can do to China as a Westerner. The only boycot against China I could see actually working would be if the Apple fagboys boycotted Apple (an American company that produces most of their hardware in China): a very high profile and fashionable company that has the Chinese producing their gadgets. That might scare the others away as well. Can you see it happening? Me neither.

Meanwhile, we can create "awareness", which never, ever, has had any consequences whatsoever.

The ad hominem part of your comment is off the mark, though.

[ Parent ]

i am creating awareness (1.50 / 2) (#53)
by circletimessquare on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:35:10 PM EST

that you are a giant douchebag


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
No, you're not (1.33 / 3) (#55)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 03:37:07 PM EST

K5 is technology and culture, from the douchebags. My douchebaguité is implied from posting to this site.

[ Parent ]
I'm going straight to Hell for this (2.25 / 12) (#18)
by MichaelCrawford on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 03:34:50 PM EST

I've long had this idea for a bumper sticker, but have never been so callous as to actually make one:

  • Free Tibet! Nepal Half Off.
The protests were featured on a page 3 article in today's San Francisco Chronicle. A somewhat different article is on its website.


--
Looking for some free songs?


Cafe Press (none / 0) (#61)
by wiredog on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:27:33 PM EST


The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.
Phage
[ Parent ]

there was a huge march up 3rd avenue last week (1.77 / 9) (#20)
by circletimessquare on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 04:55:12 PM EST

never seen so many tibetans in my life

in solidarity, i stood in front of this chinese guy taking pictures of the protestors. so there's some faces there that will escape the dossier sheet in beijing because of my hairy backside

and i used to roommate with a tibetan massage therapist

SHE WAS YUMMY

but i digress...


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

those photographers (2.00 / 5) (#41)
by N0574 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 12:06:39 AM EST

were probably up to no good, ya done good CTS.

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
midtown is a han battleground (none / 1) (#54)
by circletimessquare on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:38:11 PM EST

you have the un, around which taiwan plasters "recognize us" ads everywhere, you have the taiwanese cultural center on 42nd and 5th, the chinese consulate on 42nd and 12th, and regular falun gong demonstrations against the chinese govt all over 42nd st

42nd st midtown manhattan is a major han political battle royale

i am not surprised there were chinese photogs there. could be taiwanese press, could be chinese agent, it's just another sign of the hanpocalypse of 42nd st


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Yellow Peril (2.00 / 8) (#21)
by Scrymarch on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 06:47:00 PM EST

This is an important story and I'm glad to get your angle on the Taiwanese presidential election. The vigour of Taiwanese democracy is one of the great political achievements in the region in recent times and hopefully this election can go off without the army being called out.

I think you are pretty epically one eyed on this though and I think it puts your broader points off the rails.

The current government of the ROC may well be reluctant to claim sovereignty over Tibet, but previous governments under the KMT were far from reluctant, even seating members in parliament for it and Outer Mongolia if I recall correctly. Taiwanese nationalism is relatively recent ... positive, but recent.

You have not pointed out any good evidence that China encouraged Burma to crack down on its monks. I'm sure they weren't disappointed to see democratic protest be quashed, but frankly the Burmese generals have had plenty of practice at being jackbooted pricks and are perfectly despotic enough to shoot monks on their own.

I don't see how SE Asian workers aren't foreign to Taiwan, if Chinese are? Surely both would be foreign?

You haven't shown that the free trade area the KMT are proposing includes free movement of labour. In fact it explicitly excludes that - this is what the argument over licensing of professionals is about. Even in the EU, the free movement of labour has been one of the last elements to be added, very incompletely too, with many of the old EU members keeping the doors closed to workers from the new. And Frank Hsieh's quote frankly looks like old fashioned race baiting. Replace with "Mexicans" in the US presidential elections and see how your beloved Democrats would react. Is the DPP, of all parties, crying of the Yellow Peril? Come on man, you even hide a dig at mail order brides in the footnote. And the stupidest thing about all this is that Taiwan is an economy built on free trade. It's an island a third the size of the UK, with a catastrophically low birthrate, in one of the fastest growing economic regions in the world. You have to surf the Chinese wave or be dumped by it.

The 12% of mainlanders that harken back to the occupation by Chiang Kai-Shek may well be the backbone of the KMT. But it's not just them that are polling as voting KMT, is it? Because the DPP has had its run and failed to keep its hand out of the till. It's corrupt, like all parties in power for too long are corrupt, and people are ready to sweep it out of power to clean up the mess. Now your friends across the strait, the CPP, have been in sixty years or so, and hopefully a broom will be enough at the end of their run. But in the meantime, it might do well to civilly concede your domestic political opponents are not cunt struck commie loving foreign devils.

yes, the DPP claim is that (2.00 / 4) (#29)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:11:54 PM EST

the KMT plan is foul and large numbers of Chinese in Taiwan spells disaster. That's clear from the translations and links I give, but you are right--I am biased and don't pretend to favor China in any way in this article. I appreciate your comment Scrymarch, but since these assholes are team modbombing my comments it makes no sense for me to make lengthy comments that will most likely get hidden anyway.

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
racism accusations are serious (2.00 / 3) (#39)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:04:26 PM EST

and I don't take that sort of thing lightly. In fact, this article (and many others) argue that the PRC government (not the people) (ab)use the huge Han Chinese population to sway political policy in other countries (East Turkestan, Tibet, and soon, China). This is well known, and it's likely the 2005 secret agreements between KMT/PFP party and CCP leaders (mentioned by President Chen above) were all about the economic/social re-sinicization of Taiwan. It's about NEO-COLONIALISM, not racism.

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
oops, Freudian slip (2.33 / 3) (#40)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 11:08:50 PM EST

I meant "(East Turkestan, Tibet, and soon, TAIWAN)"!!

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
Some day (2.16 / 6) (#23)
by /dev/trash on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 07:05:24 PM EST

The world is going to be distracted by something and then China will take Taiwan for it's own again.

---
Updated 02/20/2004
New Site
I head somewhere that the pro-China... (2.25 / 4) (#24)
by sausalito on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 07:23:47 PM EST

party was at an advantage in the pre-election polls - is this the case and why is this?

Thanks for the informative article. I myself would have toned down the partisan accents, but then again... we all know what side you are on.

Perhaps sye can give us the Han view on the matter - which I'll vote up provided it contains a limited amount of poetry.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"

Expanding on the question... (2.40 / 5) (#25)
by sausalito on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 07:32:01 PM EST

...if mainland Chinese are only 12%, certainly the KMT has a wider appeal that this group... who are they and why they support this platform of integration with China?
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

answer: neoliberal economists (2.33 / 3) (#35)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:34:36 PM EST

because of offshoring (comparable to US lvls) the Taiwanese labor force has taken a beating in recent years. All the computer factories have packed up and gone to China so people are unemployed and dissatisfied, so they blame the DPP for the current shitty performance of the economy.

The KMT has won landslides in recent elections solely on this score, and the Taiwanese electorate has been fooled by their promises that further, radical opening up to China might help them economically. Hence the stuff Scrymarch mistakes as my "yellow peril" rhetoric about Chinese labor, tourism, students, etc is in fact a real possibility in the near future.

In sum, democracy is once again being fucked in the ass by the naive neolib 'free trade' experiment.

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]

Culturally, I tend to distrust arguments (2.33 / 3) (#48)
by sausalito on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:48:11 AM EST

against free trade based on cultural considerations: after all, culture can benefit more from being an open exchange of ideas and values than from insulation (China and Japan both experienced periods of extreme isolationism that probably did not a hell of a lot of good - but I don't know this so don't trust my uninformed statements about Asian cultural history).

For example, perhaps this policy might work the opposite way that Chinese rulers envisage: the Chinese workers might get used to politican freedom in Taiwan and when they go back to mainland China they might start to resent censorship more than they did before visiting the island.

Having said this, I believe there already is free trade between China and Taiwan (otherwise how is it possible to have outsourcing?). What China is pushing is the free movement of people between the two nations, sort of EU-style - am I correct?

_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

yes, that's correct (none / 1) (#60)
by N0574 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:20:03 PM EST

the Chinese/KMT partnership seeks an EU-style open market that will, as I claim in this article, allow Taiwan to be re-sinicized. see here

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
Yes, but the market metaphor for the exchange (1.00 / 2) (#68)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:20:03 AM EST

of information and ideas is incredibly retarded. It's propaganda: what the market forces that be use to fence in all that can be declared as "intellectual property". Interestingly, the idea that the exchange of ideas is a "market" is totally free, whereas the idea that Pinocchio looks a certain way is © Walt Disney. But the idea of Pinocchio could be more freely exchanged if it wasn't a property to be licensed or sold; the "free market" of ideas is the stuff that prohibits the exchange. Now, I'm not going to make this into an argument against copyright (which I fully support, if not in its current form), I'm just trying to show that the belief that there is such a thing as a "free market of ideas" is totally bullshit and inherently contradictory, and that you're totally gay for spreading that insidious meme.

(And yes, "meme" is also retarded, but it's a fine concept for describing how certain metaphors spread; more like the herpes virus than commodities in a market.)

[ Parent ]

Weak - try harder (none / 0) (#69)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 08:18:53 AM EST

The copyright and patents legislation has nothing to do with cultural considerations. As for the rest of the post, I'm afraid it's too incoherent to debunk in detail.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

It's about a metaphor, not about legislation (1.50 / 2) (#70)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:05:55 AM EST

Also, it's perfectly clear. You just happen to be an idiot.

[ Parent ]
ahahah you're much more of an idiot than I am (none / 0) (#71)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:17:48 AM EST

Just look at one thing: I never proposed the metaphore you go on about. I just said that free trade promotes the exchange of cultural ideas, you know, Marco Polo and all that.

This is so uncontroversial I'm surprised anyone would have anything to say about it. But perhaps I didn't factor in lame trolls into the equation.

Dimwit.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

No (1.50 / 2) (#73)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:46:22 AM EST

"I tend to distrust arguments against free trade based on cultural considerations: after all, culture can benefit more from being an open exchange of ideas and values than from insulation". You connect the notion of free trade with the exchange of ideas, and use the same words (marketspeech) to describe both.

Also, there was no such idea of "free trade" at Marco Polo's time.

[ Parent ]

So what's wrong with that sentence? (none / 0) (#74)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:04:20 AM EST

It makes perfect sense. ... now you're backpedalling considerably, taking on the "free" part of "free trade". OK, let's rephrase it: trade promotes the exchange of ideas (and free trade even more so).

PS The concept is a product of the classic economists (esp. Ricardo - Corn Law critique and all that) but there was some free trade in the middle age too: sea trade was basically free (no expert on this but I read the Braudel essays on bimetallism where the issue is treated to some extent).
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

Backpedalling? (1.50 / 2) (#75)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:31:38 AM EST

Going to the source of the disagreement is backpedalling?

Your rephrasing is less problematic, but for the parenthesis: throughout history, the exchange of ideas has been on its peak during empirebuilding, not in peaceful trade. Examples: Greece, the Roman empire, the Vikings, the Brits, the Soviet, the U.S. Now that we have peaceful trade with China, we get a few dumb kung-fu movies from there. Oh, and lolicon from Japan. The cultural input from Korea is limited to the annoying song they used for a Olympics and now use to sell cars.

[ Parent ]

it is backpedalling because (none / 1) (#76)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:42:00 AM EST

the source of the disagreement was some sort of non-existent metaphore I was supposedly pushing, and you saying that Mikey Mouse copyright in its current form is some sort of symbol for evil capitalism wanting to create barriers or some other hilarious shit on these lines.

I have never heard of this theory that empires benefit culture more than normal trade among nations. I am no expert on it but I'm inclined to say it's bullshit - hint: what are the pattern of trade flows in an empire ("divide et impera")?

_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

I never said it was beneficial (none / 1) (#77)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:22:00 AM EST

The flow of information, for better and for worse, is greater. It's just your bog standard cultural imperialism: turning savages into Christians or corpses, etc., while bringing back sugar and coffee (as a Frog, you should know the cultural significance of coffee).

Now, I've never mentioned Mikey or any other Mouse, and certainly not as some sort of symbol. I did mention Pinocchio, as an example, not a symbol, of how trade of ideas isn't as free as your common free exchange of ideas, which is what we're practising right now. If you can't see the difference between a symbol and an example, then it's no wonder you don't understand what I'm writing.

[ Parent ]

I was trying not to embarass you (none / 0) (#79)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:05:32 PM EST

by correcting your flawed example. The Pinocchio name is not trademarked by Disney because it comes from a 1880 children novel by Carlo Collodi (look and learn).

So if you wanted to call your own animated character Pinocchio (contrary to what you seem maintain in your pedestrian argument when you say "it has to look in a certain way" and "licenced and sold") you can without paying any licence, just like for Snow White etc. Of course, you can not sell a mug with the image of Walt Disney's Pinocchio, because that image is copyrighted.

Mickey is a much better example as it's an original Disney and it's copyrighed AND trademarked.

PS A symbol is a paradigmatic example, so they are not so far at all. Pardon me if I misquote ever so slightly you ramblings.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

Which was my point exactly (2.00 / 3) (#80)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:40:34 PM EST

Hence, "the idea that Pinocchio looks a certain way" and "©", and no mention of trademarks: Disney published the film when the original work was public domain, and "sold" us (for free) the idea of what Pinocchio looked like. But we're not allowed to make use of this idea ourselves, which is how the "marketplace of ideas" and the "marketplace of ideas" (both need quotation marks) are two radically different things.

Pardon denied: your misquotes are obviously intentional to help you create a strawman; and your claim that you were "trying not to embarass" (sic) me is self-evidently a lie. Cunt.

[ Parent ]

You make zero sense - it's hilarious! (none / 0) (#82)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:51:38 PM EST

"But we're not allowed to make use of this idea ourselves, which is how the "marketplace of ideas" and the "marketplace of ideas""

They look very similar to me!
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

Yes they do (none / 1) (#85)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:31:02 PM EST

As you can see, they use the exact same wording, and both are put in quotation marks (which was pointed out in the parenthesis you so aptly cut away). Yet they refer to different things. Isn't that ironic? Yes, it is! It's ironic! I use the metaphor I attack in an ironic way! Who'd a thunk it!

[ Parent ]
metaphores, irony.... (none / 0) (#86)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:36:20 PM EST

methinks you are trying to squirrel away from the fact that you are just not making any sense.

Your argument is fallacious and I expect any moment you'll start to talk in verses and say that what you wrote was just a poetic licence.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

Yeah, sure (none / 1) (#87)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:42:33 PM EST

If anything, this discussion exemplifies perfectly that trade and exchange of ideas are nothing alike. Also, you have no idea whether my argument is fallacious, since you haven't made an effort to understand it. In fact, you'd probably be unable to: my main point was, after all, that you're an idiot.

[ Parent ]
Ad hominem - check (none / 1) (#88)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:54:19 PM EST

Another rhetoric fallacy - come on, let's see is you can get all of them in one place.

The fact is that I think I understand at least part of what you mean but frankly I think that you yourself do not understand the full implications of your statments, as shown in several contradiction and logic flaws present in your posts.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

Not at all (1.50 / 2) (#89)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 03:20:15 PM EST

An ad hominem is when you reason from character, not when it's the conclusion.

[ Parent ]
It's in your first post of the thread, too (none / 0) (#90)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 03:28:15 PM EST

go read it in case you've forgotten what you wrote.

And since you are at it, survey the mess of arguments you pulled out of your ass (ranging from the Viking empire to Pinocchio) in the attempt of debunking an argument that still stands.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

What? (1.50 / 2) (#91)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 03:48:16 PM EST

There's no ad hominem there. Neither have I tried debunking any argument.

[ Parent ]
QED (none / 0) (#92)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:05:27 PM EST

1st post by you in this thread: "you're totally gay for..."

2nd: You just happen to be an idiot.

etc etc

... and then complains like a bitch about people not taking him seriously. Even the quality of trolling has gone down. lol
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

Masterful quotation (1.50 / 2) (#93)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:23:27 PM EST

  1. "you're totally gay for spreading that insidious meme": Not an ad hominem. As I said, an ad hominem argues from the person, here it is the end point. An ad hominem version would be that this meme is insidious because you're a totally gay person. I didn't write that.

  2. "You just happen to be an idiot." A valid point, and not an ad hominem, only a likely explanation as for why you didn't understand my comment.

Also, never once in this thread have I complained about not being taken seriously.

[ Parent ]
See it's easy to deal with cheap trolls like (none / 0) (#94)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 04:47:07 PM EST

you: it's just enough to point out that in the middle of all this smoke and mirrors (not quite impenetrable because you're - let's face it - quite a bad troll) there is one underlying fact.

Only one fact.

This fact is that the simple statement "(free) trade benefits the exchange of ideas" is still there, shining above the fighting Vikings, lawyers discussing copyright law, Mickey Mouse kissing Minnes and the latest absurdity you came up with.

Attacking a person's character is pretty much the definition of ad hominem attack. No matter how hard to reverse its definition with spurious bullet points you try you fail.

Even LilDebbie (another cheap troll) gives up when he's outed, but you, no you don't, thereby proving that you are even cheaper.

Which might beg the question: why am I insisting? I do this because I like the story and want it to have a lot of comments so that people repeatedly click on it out of curiosity -  "what are all these new comments?" - and perhaps think about it again or reread it.

You on the other hand voted against it, and yet are contributing to its popularity. As you can see, you're being pwned on multiple levels.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

I didn't attack that statement (1.50 / 2) (#95)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:52:32 PM EST

I attacked the conflation of trade and exchange of ideas. Because, face it, you presented them as working not only together, but in the same manner. The free exchange of ideas as a free market. That's all I did. You're setting up strawmen while accusing me of fictitious ad hominem attacks. So yes, it's easy to deal with cheap trolls like me if you just ignore me and choose to attack an imaginary and even cheaper troll. You're very clever for coming up with such a glorious idea.

Attacking someone's character isn't the definition of an ad hominem. It's a part of the definition, but I'm not going to repeat what an ad hominem consists of yet again. Twice should be enough. Simply insulting someone is not an ad hominem attack, it's merely impolite.

And re: me contributing to the story's popularity as some sort of pwnage: that's just fucking weak speculation. Voting against a story isn't the same as fighting against it. I'm not one of those idiots who 0d every single comment (in fact I filed an abuse report on Linux or FreeBSD for it). I'm perfectly OK with N0574, who I consider a friend of sorts, getting the story out. I just don't believe it will make a difference. If contributing to "discussion" in some way would make that belief wrong, then that's great. Honestly. But let's be realistic: nothing whatsoever will come out of some guy posting about China on the internet. Everyone already knows China sucks.

[ Parent ]

I quote myself in true CTS-style (none / 0) (#96)
by sausalito on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:13:35 PM EST

"after all, culture can benefit more from being an open exchange of ideas and values than from insulation..."

Where is the conflation (notice the "can" and the lack of any overt market simile aside from the rather vague "open exchange" which is applicable to a discourse as much as to a market to a tennis match or anything else).

But all of this does not matter as at this point the 100 comments is in sight so let's go on.

PS I filed AR on Linux and AlwaysAnonymated as well - at least we agree on something.

_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

injection (none / 1) (#101)
by tetsuwan on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:39:14 PM EST

Empire building in the old times congregated information, ideas and cultural expressions because people who formerly were disconnected became connected through the new ruler. Also, trade usually flourished because the trade routes became much safer when a single entity tried to enforce a monopoly on violence. Conquests integrated even more people an ideas.

Exchange of information works quite differently today. I'd wager that Njal's saga and the tale of The Seven Samurai are on the same footing in Sweden, although Japan never invaded. It's clearly not a flee-floating "free exchange" of ideas, but global trade and improved communications changed the game almost completely. Drones in our countries may think that they mostly consume Nordic/European/American culture, but the makers of this culture are often inspired by things that are not Nordic/European/American, thus transforming the globalization of culture from a hypothesis to a fact.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

I can't believe you bother replying to this (none / 1) (#102)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 08:56:08 AM EST

silly thread.

[ Parent ]
Well, dur, I think about these things (none / 0) (#103)
by tetsuwan on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 05:51:33 PM EST

I'm obviously retarded

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

Hey now (none / 0) (#84)
by rusty on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:54:25 PM EST

I see it. Taiwan, once a manufacturing powerhouse, loses all its jobs to China. so in response, many of them say, hey, let's just become part of China. Then we all get our jobs (or at least the national profit from them) back.

That could work for us. When will someone in the US launch a political party dedicated to American unification with China? It's win/win!

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

it was, but in TW (2.00 / 2) (#38)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:45:25 PM EST

there is an excellent law that doesn't allow polls 11 days before elections. Since then, Ma has gotten into serious trouble for his pro-Chinese economic policies and Hsieh is considered fast gaining. Stay tuned.

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
They're timing is perfect (2.16 / 6) (#26)
by LilDebbie on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 08:26:11 PM EST

Either way it could go, they win.

China backs down, yay they win.

China cracks down, the rest of the world looks on in horror as the country hosting the Olympic games slaughters its own citizens for the audacity to demand self-determination.

I'm sure those monks figured they were getting get shot eventually anyway. May as well do it when it matters.

Oh Christ, I'm writing like cts. Well, more punctuation at least.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

NO BLOOD FOR COMMAS! (2.00 / 2) (#27)
by Scrymarch on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 08:50:07 PM EST



[ Parent ]
and i just notice (2.33 / 3) (#28)
by LilDebbie on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 08:57:14 PM EST

i fucked up 'their' in the subject. i blame the bonghits.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
New Slogan (none / 1) (#83)
by rusty on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:51:51 PM EST

Kuro5hin.org: I blame the bonghits.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Speaking of which (none / 1) (#97)
by wiredog on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:53:25 AM EST

Whatever happened to DJBongHit?

The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.
Phage
[ Parent ]

I don't know (none / 0) (#98)
by rusty on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 09:19:11 AM EST

That's a good question.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
my writing style is copyrighted, u owe me $ bitch (2.00 / 3) (#30)
by circletimessquare on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:15:33 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
you stopped dbl spacing long ago (2.00 / 2) (#43)
by N0574 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:50:09 AM EST

and seem to be into more into an Oh-rly?-fuck-u-2 type of phase at the moment.

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
[ Parent ]
This war brought to you (1.50 / 2) (#67)
by V on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:32:37 AM EST

by the self-determination that gave us two world wars and countless terrorist acts.

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

This issue is horribly complicated. (2.33 / 3) (#36)
by jd on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:41:55 PM EST

As, indeed, is any independence, merger or federalization issue. It's simplistic to assume that one side, or indeed any side, is right on all issues... or indeed any. Although there's no mistaking my own political biases, I make a point of listening to other perspectives. I know I will hear ideas that would never have occured to me otherwise.

My personal opinion on Tibet, Taiwan, the many disparate cultures within China itself, and that entire region is that sides have become deeply entrenched and no longer listen. Any solution that grows out of suspicion and fear will bear the same fruit from which it was sown.

Northern Ireland was not solved by any side "winnning" or "losing", it was solved by all sides accepting they had to listen, though it took Paisley long enough. The re-emergence of violence in Spain appears to be the result of trying to emulate NI's talking, but without the listening. The total failure of peace efforts elsewhere has been by people insisting on "winning" as the goal. All problems involving groups, regardless of where in the world, are problems of fanaticism and control.

No matter what happens in Tibet and Taiwan, nothing good can come from a blind belief in self-righteousness. As the Buddhists involved in these protests can tell you, extremes are what lead to suffering, including the total dismissal of all things in an extreme, that wisdom is found beyond such pettiness.


Fine. (1.75 / 4) (#46)
by BJH on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 07:25:30 AM EST

While you're telling everyone to listen, the PRC government is running them over with tanks.

The government is just not interested in listening, mainly because they're deathly afraid that if they let their iron grip slacken for even a second, the whole place will blow apart into a bunch of ethnically-distinct ministates (much like what has happened to the old Soviet Bloc countries).

That's why they emphasise at every turn how everyone in the PRC is "Chinese", no matter their ethnicity.
--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]

And wat do you think when... (2.00 / 2) (#57)
by The Amazing Idiot on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 04:47:25 PM EST

The Tibetians use as much force they can muster? Whay do you think happens?

I'll tell you: They will send in the military and kill everybody they "deem" responsible. Once force was used on both sides, who was right? Pretty mcuh, nobody. China will attempt to save face by claiming terrorist actions in Tibet led to an all-out military action against said terrorists.

Instead, Gandi's method to peacefully disobey would probably be the best bet. Considering the Olympics are coming up, what would the international community say if they saw the same Chinese military going down the line of people sitting in the street, shooting them in the head, and then using bulldozers to push the carcasses?

They'd probably lose their Olympic position. I dont think the UN or the US could ignore something like that.

[ Parent ]

I'd remind you (none / 0) (#62)
by jd on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:31:59 PM EST

That Palestinians attacked Israeli athletes in a prior Olympics in Germany. The botched rescue directly caused the deaths of all hostages. The Israelis then assassinated all connected with the original attack (in violation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights) using methods that caused considerable collateral damage (in volation of the Geneva Conventions). Not one of the three parties - all of whom were guilty of attrocities - were penalized. It is therefore by no means certain China would be penalized for human rights violations on Tibetan protesters.

On the other hand, you are absolutely correct that Ghandi's methods are essential in this. But they cannot be applied alone. Britain had been on a rapid decline for many years at that point, was a long way away, and had no real incentive to win.

It will involve talking, though not with the upper layers (who are unimportant as their information and their orders are all filtered by middle managers anyway). Clandestine lines of communication are the norm for resolving such situations, as was the case in Northern Ireland. Such lines, if they don't exist, should be created. If they already exist, and I have no respect for Tibet if they do not, can be used to manipulate reprisals so that Tibetans are not harmed and yet the Chinese upper echelons are satisfied. Once both sides believe such methods can benefit them, then a resolution that will satisfy both will be found.

[ Parent ]

That shows more how the UN is.. (none / 0) (#64)
by The Amazing Idiot on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:38:00 PM EST

---That Palestinians attacked Israeli athletes in a prior Olympics in Germany. The botched rescue directly caused the deaths of all hostages. The Israelis then assassinated all connected with the original attack (in violation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights) using methods that caused considerable collateral damage (in volation of the Geneva Conventions).

My girlfriend and I watched a movie depicting that event: Syriana. We have an art theater in our city that pulls the interesting shows. Regardless what the shows have (and it was a bit off on the nity gritty facts), it was mostly correct.

---Not one of the three parties - all of whom were guilty of attrocities - were penalized. It is therefore by no means certain China would be penalized for human rights violations on Tibetan protesters.

That shows how the people who control the Olympics thinks: they should show no mercy when it comes to extreme violence and hatred and temporally ban the nations. I guess this shows bad for the sponsors or something... I have no clue why they would put up with this kind of behavior.

---On the other hand, you are absolutely correct that Ghandi's methods are essential in this. But they cannot be applied alone. Britain had been on a rapid decline for many years at that point, was a long way away, and had no real incentive to win.

Too true. India is the second most populous nation, and pretty far away too. Indians could have waged a drawn out war against the UK, but instead chose nonviolence. I mean, what do you do with an army of "sit and say nothing"? It looks really bad to do anything to them, aside from arresting them. However, we can count on cops to hit them, kick them, spit on them, and a whole bunch of other things... and after protesters are out, they'll be sitting again.

China has the idea Draco had: violation of anything they deem severe is punishable by death. The Chinese government has no idea of bounds and limits, as there are none. This works in the Buddhists defense too: they can follow non-violence. Since this action (against the state) will assuredly draw a death sentence, they literally sacrifice themselves in that they will cause change for the better and gain respect for the community.

---It will involve talking, though not with the upper layers (who are unimportant as their information and their orders are all filtered by middle managers anyway). Clandestine lines of communication are the norm for resolving such situations, as was the case in Northern Ireland. Such lines, if they don't exist, should be created. If they already exist, and I have no respect for Tibet if they do not, can be used to manipulate reprisals so that Tibetans are not harmed and yet the Chinese upper echelons are satisfied. Once both sides believe such methods can benefit them, then a resolution that will satisfy both will be found.

Though I fear this is much more cultural than anything else, but I wonder why the Chinese just didn't let them follow whatever they wish, as long as they were subservient to the Chinese government. It seems that would have saved face for both sides, knowing they that they would have been defeated anyways. This goes way deeper than I think any of us Westerners can figure out.

[ Parent ]

Definitely. (none / 1) (#66)
by jd on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 02:30:55 AM EST

None of us know the real thinking behind the actions. Saving face is important to all politicians, but different cultures define honour and face differently. What is certain is that this will get more complex the longer it drags on. Not necessarily more violent, but definitely more complex.

But culture and complexity is not limited to the Chinese government. Tibbetan Buddhists fundamentally believe in reincarnation and the immortality of the soul. In other words, bodily death is merely an inconvenience to them. Buddhism in general also teaches that life is suffering. As with many religious teachings, that can be helpful or harmful, depending on how it is understood.

Now, things do get complicated when you consider that independence-seeking groups get classed as terrorist or freedom-fighters depending on the political mood of the day in any given country. There is no accepted standard by which self-determination can be judged, because no nation wants to risk the potential consequences of such a standard for sub-divisions within themselves.

Whether you are talking about the Basque area of Spain, Tibet, Chechnya, the Kashmir region between India and Pakistan, the Palestinian territories, the Black Hills of South Dakota, etc, there are consequences for any decisions. Consequences that may be inevitable, but are guaranteed to be put off as long as possible.

If the American government were told tomorrow that Tibet and Taiwan could be independent if (and only if) Native Americans had more solid rights, were given back land awarded them by treaties and then stolen, and had representation in Congress by tribe just like any other State, but that neither would ever be independent if that never happened, what do you think they'd do? I could see them dropping their support for both nations as a result.

Likewise, if Spain were told that they could peacefully guarantee independence for both nations by granting the same to the Basques, I could see them supplying arms to China to aid in the suppression long before they agreed to such terms.

I'm not arguing if that's right or wrong, merely that that is how politicians tend to react. They look at the consequences to themselves first. Which may be the right thing to do, I won't judge it, but it's also a way that creates these very problems.

[ Parent ]

Syriana? (none / 0) (#81)
by rusty on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 01:49:15 PM EST

Aren't you thinking of Munich? Syriana was the somewhat muddled George Clooney vehicle about the oil industry.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Yeah, you're right. (none / 0) (#99)
by The Amazing Idiot on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 03:31:40 PM EST

I dont know why that name was stuck in my head.

We watched Munich, but never watched syriana.

Cognitive dissonance, I guess ;P

[ Parent ]

Heard it all before. (none / 0) (#63)
by jd on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 09:54:20 PM EST

Paisley and many other Unionists said much the same about the IRA. The Republicans likewise said much the same about the Unionists. All the while, the British Government had set up clandestine lines of communication, long before peace was possible. And that is how peace became possible.

The self-righteousness is where problems begin. That is the true evil. You can't eliminate it from someone else, but you can make it unsustainable. But you cannot do so by being self-righteous yourself.

The current Iraq conflict is a classic example of where self-righteousness by both sides caused disaster. The surge isn't what caused the reduction in violence, it was the toning down of rhetoric and conceit, and the emphasis on talking, that has allowed middle gound to be found.

This did not require talking to any upper echelons of power, although the British are now considering it as a logical next step. It only required that they made the effort.

I would rather Tibetans try a solution known to work than a solution known not to.

[ Parent ]

flaws in the Bush admin's China policy (1.75 / 4) (#37)
by N0574 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 10:43:44 PM EST

Just in, this report critical of the US's pro-China stance from the AP

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
CNN video, 03/15/08 (1.75 / 4) (#49)
by N0574 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:54:23 AM EST

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/03/14/vause.tibet.protest.cnn

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL
Agence France-Presse 3/16/2008 12:58 AM (2.00 / 2) (#51)
by N0574 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 01:09:22 PM EST

World (as of 3/16/2008 12:58 AM)

World condemns China as Olympic doubts grow

Agence France-Presse

PARIS - Taiwan led sweeping condemnation Saturday of China's brutal crackdown on protestors in Tibet and accused Beijing of trying to gloss over its rights record with Olympic sheen.

continued

- NCCTG N0574 CANCER PROTOCOL

Boycott the Olympics (2.40 / 5) (#72)
by shokk on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 09:30:40 AM EST

Boycott the Olympics or you are congratulating the PLA on their wonderful performance.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
it's st. patricks day in midtown manhattan today (none / 1) (#78)
by circletimessquare on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 12:34:53 PM EST

and between the failing investment bank on 46th and madison (bear stearns), the fallen building crushing crane on 2nd and 51st, the really weird sight over here around the united nations area is that tibetan flags outnumber drunk people wearing green

how many tibetans are there in nyc anyways?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

i heard you were part of the dalai clique (nt) (none / 1) (#100)
by Delirium on Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 05:40:52 AM EST



Rumors of further unrest (none / 0) (#104)
by nostalgiphile on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:31:18 AM EST

from the BBC

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
The Tibetan Uprising and Next Week's Taiwan Presidential Elections | 104 comments (100 topical, 4 editorial, 3 hidden)
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