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Crawford's calling, and he's calling you gay.

By cockskin horsesuit in News
Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 10:36:17 PM EST
Tags: sodomy, horsecock, GayForCrawford, crawdoc, Mania! (all tags)

Saturday December 31, 2011
The time 10:25 a.m.

911: 911 how can I help you?

Crawford: This is NOT an emergency.

911: OK

Crawford: a second?

911: Go ahead.

Crawford: Uh, I am my name is Mike Cockford, I need to make a NONemergency NONurgent phone call or have him return my call to Officer Tim Thomson of Vancouver Police Department.

911: OK let me make sure he's working hold on one second did he just call you or?

Crawford: Uh, no, but I left him a message the other day and, he never responded, I, I know he's busy chasing crooks so he did it really isn't urgent but he does know me uh if he's not on duty if you could just pass it on that's all I would need.

911: Yeah I can't pass on a message but he is luckily working today so what's your phone number?

Crawford: Uh let me give you both my home and cell because the cell doesn't work so good.

911: OK

Crawford: The cell is area code 503, uh, 927, uh, XXXX.

911: OK

Crawford: And uh the home is area code uh 360, uh, 571, uh, XXXX.

911: And you're calling from a completely different cell phone than either of the ones you gave me , sorry

Crawford: I, I am, yeah, the one on your caller ID that's my mom because the cell she she has different cell provider, the signal's better for her than for my phone.

911: OK, and so, well you know what is this regarding?

Crawford: Um, I'm not entirely sure, but I did speak with one of your colleagues the other day and I explained it to her but I don't have a clue whether my message got through to Tim so honestly I don't know

911: Right, but is it in reference to a case or something?

Crawford: Uh, there is a police officer in southern California who a couple of times has threatened to arrest me and prosecute me for all manners of stuff that was largely a product of HIS fevered imagination. I decided that maybe I'd make a statement that would REALLY piss him off and so that this time he would issue an arrest warrant, but he's in California I'm way out of his jurisdiction. If this guy actually did want to arrest me I just wanted Tim Thomson to be that put me in custody, he's a great guy he helped me out of a jam. It it's funny it's all on the internet if you want to read it you just you know you gotta stick email or I'll give you the website, it is FUNNY.

911: OK, so this officer is making threats via your website?

Crawford: Pardon?

911: What, the website?

Crawford: sorry?

911: Who is making, is somebody on the website making threats of you or are you've just made a website about it?

Crawford: *exasperated* I. made. a. website. to. make. fun.

911: Oh.

Crawford: of a police officer who made threats of me over the telephone. *increasing outrage* The guy rang me up on my cell phone, AT work, TOLD me that the conversation was being recorded so that whatever I said could be used as evidence against me in a COURT of law but I HAD not luck whatsoever incriminating myself because HE would not even let me speak while he Shouted at me for a solid, goddamned hour...

911: ok

Crawford: ...about how he was going to prosecute me for making terrorist threats...

911: *interrupting* OK, so what's the website?

Crawford: ...when ALL I can... oh, okay, got something to write with, I didn't, I know you probably don't mumble

911: I'm ready, go ahead.

Crawford: OK, W, W, W, I'll pronounce it and spell it, dot, software problem, dot, N I, N E D, S O F, T W A R E, P R O B L E M, dot N P. RIGHT at the top there,...

911: Dot, Dot what?

Crawford: Dot net. Software problem.

911: Oh OK.

Crawford: I I know you're not getting online while youre at work but it is pretty fucking funny what I say about Sergeant Sousa. Right at the top, and it gives some details about what it, I have been in some kind of civil lawsuit, it's not important what it was, and, basically I Im a writer and I'm really good at it and one of the techniques that writers do is whats called metaphor, it's not important what metaphor is, but it's commonly used in fiction, it's hardly ever used in nonfiction, but one of my unique strengths is to use metaphor in completely nonfiction work which has the effect of making my nonfiction work more effective but sometimes completely will lose the reader in the metaphorically way in which I explain to completely opposing counsel (that I would win and they would lose) had the result that this Sergeant Sousa would ring me up and shouted at me for a solid hour about how I had been making terrorist threats and he was going to put me behind bars for the rest of my days I had finally gotten tired of taking this guys crap and so I finally said look man if you think I had broken the law in any way just say the word I will hop in my car right now drive down to the station and you can cuff me and read me my rights. And he wouldn't tell me to he wouldn't arrest me all the man wanted to do was Shout at me. And I just kept telling him, Look man, are you gonna arrest me? I'll come there right now. You don't have to send, fuck, he finally just hung up on me.

911: OK.

Crawford: They're absolutely, said a couple of times, man ... That is the kind of guy, that I know you guys don't like to hear this, but when ??? calls the cops a pig, they were talking about that jackass that was intimidated, I haven't committed any crime at all, *disgusted* he was just being a blowhard.

911: OK, what's your name sir?

Crawford: *proudly* Um. Michael Crawford. I call you guys all the time, I'm sure you recognize, C R A W FORD.

911: Why do you, Why do you call us all the time? ... Are you...

Crawford: Um, I myself, I'm not symptomatic now, but I have a rather severe mental illness, mental illness, of great severity, mental illness runs throughout my entire extended family, because I have largely and mumble to recover, but as a result, learn something about you know how people recover from mental illness, I seek out other people who are mentally ill, I do what I can to you know help them out of it, the result is that on a momentarily regular basis I ring up 911 wherever I happen to be to request what I'm sure you understand is called a welfare check. And uh Tim Thomson personally performed a welfare check on me which was completely inappropriate and I was NOT symptomatic in any way but he even so he was just being careful and hauled me off to a nuthouse in handcuffs and at the time he did not, it was just a matter of a simple understanding, but people at the psychiatric hospital were cool about that. But Tim is a great guy and I managed to just phase bring my computer with me, you know I'd be out on the street if I lost that thing, so he made sure I got it back, that's why if this blowhard suits to want to have me arrested, I want Tim to do it, I think that he'd get a lot out of it.

911: Ok alright Mike, I'm going to have to let you go, I'll have the officer get in touch with you, ok?

Crawford: Ok, one last thing, if you find ANYTHING on that softwareproblem.net site, interesting, useful, funny, helpful if you just wanted people to know it, lay that link via email message board website what have you, into the hands of anybody who might find it useful or interesting.

911: Ok, alright sir I'm going to have to let you go.

Crawford: Thanks ma'am.

911: Bye.

Saturday, December 31, 2011
The time 2:22 pm

911: 911 how may I help you?

Crawford: This is NOT an emergency, do you have a minute?

911: Sure.

Crawford: I'm working with Vancouver Police Officer Tim Thomson on a certain matter. Uh he was going to discuss my concerns with his supervisor who he said was down at the state department office uh a block or so east of the main library. I just happened to be heading that way, and I was kinda hoping I might talk but the place is bolted up tight. I RANG the doorbell, I know there can't be many people here

911: At the headquarters? You're on 83?

Crawford: Yeah, I'm standing right out by the back door, it's uh?

911: Yeah, nobody's there.

Crawford: Nobody at all?

911: No, nobody at all. They're out on call.

Crawford: Okay, no, I didn't, I know they're out chasing crooks and stuff, lets do this a different way, it's not urgent, nobody's going to get away or get killed, if you could just either uh forward me, if he's not busy, Tim Thomson's cell phone, or if that's not possible, if you could just send him a message and ask him to call me, I'll give you my number, and uh, the library shouldn't be far, there's lots of places where we can talk, I just wanted to talk to him personally, mumble but it's not urgent.

911: Ok, your name sir?

Crawford: Michael Crawford, C R A W F O R D.

911: *typing* Ok, and your phone number?

Crawford: Uh area code um 503, uh 927, uh, XXXX. And I also wanted to say, I would talk to Tim about this cop and, a completely different part, department, that was really giving me a hard time, and I didn't expect this reaction from Tim, but I'm very um gratified, Tim said he was working through the channels to have that guy investigated and disciplined for violating all manner of constitutional rights, but that's not the reason I came down here, but the reason I did is that I have some data that is really helpful to law enforcement in their pursuit of justice and the FBI just told me to go away every time I tried to give it to them. This is NOT in Vancouver's jurisdiction, but it'd be really cool that a law enforcement officer would let me give him some written material that if he can pass that on to somebody with a half a brain, who uh when given information could put some very wh, kinda violent psychopathic felons behind bars for the rest of their days. might actually, if they don't investigate it go find somebody who could. It's not urgent, if he's out chasing crooks, it could certainly wait for the last few years, but I've had a lot on my mind because I've been thinking about this shit, I've been days on end with not getting enough sleep, It would be a huge release to talk to Tim, give him some written notes that I wrote damn near a year and a half ago that I tried to give to the FBI that they just would not get back to me and if that simple matter of knowing that Tim would put that into the hands of somebody who would make a difference would let me finally get a good night's sleep.

911: OK, I'll give him the message and have him call you OK Michael?

Crawford: OK I'm not gonna hang out at the police station cause there's nowhere to sit but I'll be somewhere in around downtown Vancouver, I'll go find someplace that's open and can sell me a coffee I'll be nearby here.

911: OK

Crawford: And and okay he doesn't need to meet me in person if he's busy, uh a phone call would be all I need.

911: Alright I'll let him know.

Crawford: Thanks.

911: Thank you.

Crawford: Listen man the fact that you didn't just tell me to get lost made. my. whole. fucking. day.

911: No, I'm glad sir, so you just, er, hold tight, and I'll have, uh, Officer Thomson give you a call back.

Crawford: Thank you.

911: Thank you sir, bye-bye.

Crawford: Bye-bye.

Saturday December 31, 2011
The time 2:41 p.m.

911: 911 how can I help you?

Crawford: Hi, my name is Michael Crawford I've been chatting with you guys off and on the last couple of days. Tim Thomson was working with me with a certain matter, I just called in hopes that he would discuss a completely different matter with me that is an incredibly serious crime in which an illegal arms manufacturer made completely untraceable fully automatic weapons then to make that all of his people would...

911: *interrupting* OK OK OK Michael Michael what's a phone number he can reach you at?

Crawford: OK ANY law enforcement on the face of the earth, even the damn dog catcher, I have all manner of information that nobody will allow me to give them. It's not in Vancouver's jurisdiction, but if I gave you a written document that some law enforcement officer passed from an official channel to the law enforcement officers in some place I'm not gonna tell you over an unsecured cell phone connection, the very, the incredible horror I have lived with--didn't actually see this happen simply having it described to me I am completely overcome with the worst kind of inconsolable grief, imagine what it was like for my closest and oldest friend, to see some guy who let something slip that he shouldn't, they had everybody downstairs in their meth lab and down in the basement, nice and quiet and way out in the middle of nowhere, they had a little machine shop, it's actually, it's actually pretty cool to make your own machine gun, and it's NOT that hard, the tools for it are three to five thousand dollars and I'm a MUCH better machinist than most of those guys were. If you actually make your machine guns you know there's no serial number the rifling is completely uncharacteristic, so even if the law enforcement authorities find it they won't trace it, they had everybody there, that friend of mine, was, you know most people would call her a meth whole but actually she was pretty devoted to that guy, the kingpin standing right next to him, and he opened fire on that guy with a goddamned machine gun, and I'm going to tell you and I DO know that this is being recorded, hold on, Corporal Zimmerman, I wrote down his badge number ok no doubt you don't need that, told me to FUCK off. So after I speak to SOMEBODY with a clue my VERY next step, I'm not going to tell him the kind of details I gave you, I'm going to the Columbian newspaper as well as the Portland Oregonian, goddamned EVERY printed publication in ALL of creation, and there's going to get the recording between you and me out of the Freedom of the Information Act, and other then when they're going to redact the fact [lol] that I just, you know, like I myself have a bunch of information that would have this guy coming after me with homemade machine guns, it's going to be on the front page of every paper in the fucking known universe, if some law enforcement officer, all I require is to him make a simple phone call, an email, or a fax, to lay this information into the hands of someone who could make a difference. There's all kinds of federal stuff about this but I've been circling desperately for two solid years and I cannot even set foot in the FBI because they just get pissed off just like the way Corporal Zimmerman did. And I DO know that... Are you there?

911: I'm here.

Crawford: Ok, my name is Michael Crawford, R A W F O R D, my phone number is, Portland area code actually it's in Vancouver and Tim Thomson knows all about me, great guy, but the matter I spoke to him about today is completely different, completely unrelated, the reason I'm SO worked up now, SO pissed at Corporal Zimmerman, is that the very first time in in in the last few years that I've been trying to bring this to the attention of the legal authorities, Tim Thomson was the first law enforcement officer who even gave me the impression that he bothered even going into work in the morning rather than jacking off and watching TV all day and letting the crooks run free. That's the kind of impression I get from people like the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I forgot my phone number I'm sure it's caller ID but I'll confirm it. Area code 503, 927, XXXX. And one last comment, I didn't want to give any any ANY details at all to Corporal Zimmerman, just as gave to you, because I'm speaking over what's called an unsecured channel, and you know the military and the diplomats are all heavily into that, and you might think nobody's going to pick up my cell phone conversation and they'll of course hunt down me as well as my closest and oldest friend, but consider that when Princess Diana ya know who's gonna be Queen of England some day, was screwing around on the side in ya know with some military guy and he called her up and asked to see her to be in the sack some day, right on the 5 o'clock news all over England was a recording of her voice saying she didn't want to have sex because didn't want to get, in her exact word, PREGGERS. Listen man, I could do that to YOUR cell phone at the DROP of a hat and I don't even need to know your number. I don't, I should NOT have to tell a law enforcement officer that I named an informant over an unsecured connection and he's not willing to even meet me in PRIVATE, I it doesn't have to be today, but I haven't slept in goddamn days, I just *hysterical* I got ALL KINDS of information like this, and I'm trying to *incoherently raising voice* it away, to put it into the hands of someone who COULD make a difference, but who feels like it's actually worth their time of day to DO so. Look you 911 people are cool, but listen the law enforcement community, what the hell do we pay them for, play russian roulette with themselves?! Why don't they go chase some crooks? Listen man, you know I know speeding and drunk driving are a big deal and all, but look, you want to know how methamphetamine addiction affects people, this guy was producing at the time, I don't know if he still does it, but, you know I doubt he went, you know, went into like being a novelist or something, that kind of ?? you like ?? He was producing damn near most of the methamphetamine in the entire western United States! I am not kidding, I, I don't know the address of the drop-off, I do know where it was located, it would not be hard if it's still there probably not, it would not be hard to find in the yard, you just have some people kind of hang out there and kind of get to know. I can get you the street address of the person who told me, I'm not going to tell you if it's a man or a woman over an unsecured channel but it's one or the other. Every time I THINK of this, you know think, I'm not gonna ask you but imagine the most horrifying thing you have ever heard about, or seen or witnessed or was done to you, if you were raped or molested or you saw someone murdered or you saw your child die, the simple description of what this woman told me every time I think of it, it would be as if I watched my mother get murdered, and that goddamned Corporal Zimmerman did not seem to give a flying fuck and when asked me did nothing more, until I find a phone number of whoever I needed to lay this thing to, I just wanted HIM to make that call, that's all, and he just totally blew me off because this is NOT his jurisdiction. He had enough time sit here and have an all kinds of manner of ice cold debate about whether he could deal with it, in the time he COULD have rung up the guy that WAS in the juriction, and told him, just to read this document and either... WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE SO FUCKING HARD, TO REPORT A DRUG MURDER?!?! Look, I know this is not your fault. But look man, the fact that this guy, just go down to downtown Portland or if you really want some extra credit, go up to Vancouver British Columbia, ask somebody around what downtown eastside is, it's on Easton Street, just to the, here in, East of Berard, going to Berard in downtown Portland it's easy to find on two main streets, listen man I I always worked in there I figured I ought to check out uh East Paiston so I could get so I could know what it's all about because I really care about it, I had not been on East Paiston for ten seconds before I was solicited by a prostitute, who actually had quite obviously at at some time had been a woman of some general comfort. I politely declined as gently as I could, *voice breaking* but I did everything I could, to make her feel like a live human being. Listen man, they they went out and cleaned all the heroin needles there one day just to see how many there would be, in the space of a city block they found eight thousand of them, EIGHT THOUSAND NEEDLES. Those weren't the ones people were using, those were the ones that were too worn out so they chucked them on the ground. Listen this guy I'm trying to get off the street is responsible for the shit like that. And every time I approached a law enforcement officer about it, they ALWAYS come up with some REALLY good reason, yeah, they probably should throw that guy in jail but I'm not gonna do it because, you know I'm watching Saturday Night Live or something, they NEVER come up with any kind of credible excuse. And I HAVE reported this IN the jurisdiction, there are all kinds of federal matters, so I walked into the goddamned, Campbell, Campbell California FBI office and the guy got all pissed off at me for wasting his time because there was a real recent kidnapping and he just wanted to deal with that rather than have some secretary who wasn't a law enforcement officer you know come take notes or an audio recording. I didn't need an agent to do that, I just needed the information in FBI hands. Look I'm sorry I know people are dying and burning down houses all the time, you can go if you need to.

911: Yep, I need to.

Crawford: Ok, the fact that you sat there and listened to me just saved my whole fucking day. *sobbing* Why aren't more people like what you do? Ok, I'm gonna tell you one last thing.

911: OK

Crawford: I'm standing about halfway between the downtown uh police station which I was just hoping to talk to somebody at, and the main library, the main library's open, I'm gonna go hang in the main library and maybe have a coffee, I don't need to talk to a law enforcement officer in person, but if they wanted to, a good way would be to just meet me in the library and I'll come sit in their patrol car.

911: OK. I'll let him know.

Crawford: Ok, and it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be any, anybody in particular, but if I hear from that Goat Fucker Colonel Zimmerman again, Corporal Zimmerman, *menacing* listen man, he's gonna wish he had never been born. And I do not care that it's criminal to make a threat, if I, if that man darkens this doorstep, I'm gonna beat that fucker to death for not doing his goddamned job. I want this recorded, if you will not simply supply me with this recording, I'll have a freedom of information act, so that, while after redacting certain information, I'm going to put the whole goddamned thing on Youtube. Thank you ma'am, and you are a wonderful and compassionate human being.


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Related Links
o December 31, 2011
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Display: Sort:
Crawford's calling, and he's calling you gay. | 46 comments (45 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
someone post a techno remix of the audio. (3.00 / 5) (#1)
by nateo on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 01:21:07 AM EST

maybe a eurotrash backbeat, some snare drums...

"I'm so gonna travel the world, photographing my dick at every location."
  - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi
With apologies to Utah Saints, (none / 1) (#43)
by Chino Ginelli on Sun Feb 26, 2012 at 06:06:11 PM EST

and I haven't dabbled since my teens..


"Can you recommend a Chino vendor?" - MichaelCrawford, Nov 2008

"[President Obama] likes em a little loose but not saggy. He likes a wool and cashmere blend. He rolls with an inch and a quarter cuff." - tdillo, Nov 2008

"I think they look sharp. But it's important that they be pressed, or at least hung properly, so as to maintain the crease." - MichaelCrawford, Sep 2009

"I find a bit of well-cut tailoring quite hot." - TDS, Jun 2010

[ Parent ]
Welldone! (none / 0) (#44)
by cockskin horsesuit on Sun Feb 26, 2012 at 06:47:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
could this herald a new music genre? (none / 0) (#45)
by Delirium on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 01:31:29 AM EST

waiting for the FOIA'd 911 call mixtape

[ Parent ]
I didn't know this gem was in there till (3.00 / 2) (#46)
by Chino Ginelli on Mon Feb 27, 2012 at 02:41:11 AM EST

I sat through 34 mins of flat-affect:

"they had everybody downstairs in their meth lab and down in the basement, nice and quiet and way out in the middle of nowhere, they had a little machine shop, it's actually, it's actually pretty cool to make your own machine gun, and it's NOT that hard.."

"Can you recommend a Chino vendor?" - MichaelCrawford, Nov 2008

"[President Obama] likes em a little loose but not saggy. He likes a wool and cashmere blend. He rolls with an inch and a quarter cuff." - tdillo, Nov 2008

"I think they look sharp. But it's important that they be pressed, or at least hung properly, so as to maintain the crease." - MichaelCrawford, Sep 2009

"I find a bit of well-cut tailoring quite hot." - TDS, Jun 2010

[ Parent ]
Wow it's both a MDC joke AND an AxCx joke (3.00 / 2) (#2)
by Blarney on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 01:30:30 AM EST

That's pretty awesome great title. It goes downhill from there tho, it's really just a sad thing.

ITNOS +1FP (none / 1) (#3)
by boomi on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 06:48:10 AM EST

I'm forced to conclude that manic behaviour is contagious. As a first measure I stopped reading.

Yet I encourage the writer in this endeavour, as it may further our insights in how manias spread.

dude if you think reading it is bad (none / 1) (#4)
by cockskin horsesuit on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 07:19:56 AM EST

try listening to this shit.

[ Parent ]
I just tried. (none / 0) (#5)
by boomi on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 08:08:05 AM EST

I won't try anymore. I didn't realise yours was an actual transcription. It was funny as long as I thought it's not real.

It pains me to think 911 operators must frequently get such calls. Maybe to them calls about imagined problems are a welcome pause from calls about actual problems. Still, they have to try and understand everything for cases where the caller mentions the bodies.

[ Parent ]

and what did you try as a lastmeasure? (none / 0) (#12)
by lostincali on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 05:37:10 PM EST

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

I find this heartbreaking. (3.00 / 2) (#7)
by HollyHopDrive on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 03:58:11 PM EST

I genuinely do.

Also, I'm still gobsmacked at the fact that evidence in an upcoming trial can be made public before the trial has begun.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.

Unlike in the UKKK, (none / 0) (#8)
by cockskin horsesuit on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 05:30:51 PM EST

here in the USA our trials are open and public and we have a free press.

These are public records first and foremost, and only incidentally evidence of Crawcrimes.

911 tapes play on the television news all the time, not just fine, legitimate online news outlets like Kuro5hin (Technology and Culture, From the Trenches).

[ Parent ]

It compromises the fairness of the trial (none / 1) (#9)
by HollyHopDrive on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 05:33:08 PM EST

to have the evidence out in the open for discussion beforehand.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

SHUT UP (3.00 / 2) (#10)
by MDC Protector Protector on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 05:35:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
if this were the product of a search warrant (none / 1) (#11)
by cockskin horsesuit on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 05:37:04 PM EST

in a criminal investigation of Crawford's dildo drawer, then you might have an argument in the USA.

These are instead records of an fine upstanding public agency (the Clark Regional Emergency Services Agency), which are free and open to public inspection at all times on request.

Besides this is not exactly the trial of the century, I don't weeding out the Kuro5hin audience will deplete the Clark County jury pool.

[ Parent ]

*don't think (none / 0) (#14)
by cockskin horsesuit on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 05:51:18 PM EST

gah transcribing crawforisms has permanently destroyed the language sections of my brain.

[ Parent ]
Not really the point. (none / 0) (#18)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 02:45:25 AM EST

Crawford, like every defendant, has a right to a fair trial, and the fact that he's not famous and the charge is not rape or murder is really beside the point.

If you Google his name, one of the first hits is an old k5 post, and from there you could stay up all night becoming acquainted with Crawfordology. And anyway, information is either in the public domain or it's not. It might be low profile, but either it's available and free to distribute further, or it isn't. If a juror happens on k5 and sees all this, and all Crawford's previous stories, you think that won't compromise the trial? Jurors are supposed to judge based solely on the evidence they see in the courtroom, and the discussions they have with each other. You can't go home and ask your wife what she thinks, she wasn't there and hasn't seen the full picture the way you have. Even if she was sat in the public bench the whole time, she wasn't sworn in and isn't under oath like you are.

I've no idea if 999 records would be available on demand here. Since several police stations post recordings of time wasting calls on their websites, I guess they would be. But they wouldn't be if the caller was subsequently charged with a crime relating to one of those calls, because then they are evidence.

So yes, I realise this is all legal in the US. I'm just astounded by that fact.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Jurors are not allowed to Google defendants. (none / 0) (#22)
by cockskin horsesuit on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 04:48:47 AM EST

Court order and specific instructions, you know. So I don't see what your point is. Unless you count on jurors to ignore direct orders from the judge and conspire against the defendant, in which case I suppose your problem is with the jury system in the first place.

[ Parent ]
Doesn't have to be Google. (none / 0) (#23)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 06:36:44 AM EST

If this information is publicly available, then there's no legal reason why they can't broadcast it on BBC World News, pin it to billboards on the motorway and get the Red Arrows to write it in the sky. It can, in theory, be almost impossible to get a juror not to see it.

I realise this is not going to happen in Mike's case. But the law doesn't, or rather shouldn't, work with degrees like that. It's ok if it's on a horsecock-obsessed website available all over the world, but it's not ok on the six o'clock news in your local town? Try legislating that for fair and equal application across the board until Domesday. If it's going to be fairly and consistently applied, it needs to be the same for everyone.

Which means either it's in the public domain and we could fuck up a fair trial by exposing the jurors to the evidence beforehand so they can start forming judgments before they've even been sworn in, or we say, "Charges have been brought, proceedings are active, we now say and reveal nothing until he's in the dock. It's the only way to be sure, and fair."

Sure, jurors shouldn't Google defendants, and they shouldn't be acquainted with any part of the case beforehand (and if they are, they should say so so they can be disqualified). But sheesh, why make this situation more likely in the first place? Why not just say that once proceedings are active for a court case, we shut the fuck up about it until it's started? How can we say it's fine to stick it in the public domain, but only people who haven't seen it can try the case?

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

freedom of the press (none / 1) (#15)
by balsamic vinigga on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 06:06:43 PM EST

we tell jurors to not peak at the news, and in cases where the news is unavoidable we lock em up in shitty hotels for the entire duration of the proceedings and ask that they not discuss the case with friends and family.

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[ Parent ]
Whereas we (none / 0) (#19)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 02:54:57 AM EST

have laws stating that the press can report only on what happened within the courtroom and must keep its coverage fair, accurate and contemporaneous, so it won't affect jurors.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

fairness v transparency (none / 1) (#24)
by localroger on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 08:45:16 AM EST

This is really a situation where the US Founders' distrust of the government comes to the fore. 911 calls and dashcam tapes are public records; the public owns them, and that whole first amendment and freedom of the press thing means that they are openly available on the theory that we should be able to see what our government is doing. In the US this generally trumps the interests of courts in not having contaminated jury pools.

The UK, not having that first amendment thing, has a lot more limits on speech than the US -- many of which we would consider unreasonable. For example, from the US perspective UK libel law looks positively insane.

Our country was founded by people who were keenly aware of the dangers of censorship and secret evidence, and our practices reflect that.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity. -- Bill Maher
[ Parent ]

Oh, the libel laws ARE insane. (none / 1) (#27)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 11:45:04 AM EST

There's a movement at the moment to get them reformed and many people are very supportive. Not all of them are insane, but they need serious reforming, absolutely.

But making the key piece of evidence in an upcoming trial public knowledge before the trial? That's insanity too. And being able to interview jurors about their deliberations? I can't get my head round that one either.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

jurors can't talk before they reach a verdict, (none / 0) (#31)
by cockskin horsesuit on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 02:30:41 PM EST

and afterwards, it's up to them individually.

Why should serving on a jury gag you for life?

Grand juries are the odd duck in the USA, their proceedings are pretty much perpetually secret unless a court unseals them, and grand jurors can't ever talk about the evidence they saw or their deliberations. But then, it's a bit easier to get out of grand jury service, as it's much more of a commitment and not as common, and it's a bit more like being a sworn investigator for the state. Most states have done away with grand juries anyway (other than federal grand juries).

[ Parent ]

If you know you can be identified (none / 1) (#33)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 06:45:56 PM EST

and questioned later, that's likely to change the way you deliberate and reach your verdict. Your jury service is a civic duty, not a cool experience for you to mouth off about like a damn kiss and tell. Deliberations and juror identities are kept secret in order to avoid any pressure or motivation for jurors to do anything except faithfully try the defendant and give a true verdict according to the evidence they saw in court, and nothing else. Court cases are not entertainment and jurors are not actors who should have to expect to justify their performances to people who weren't in the room and weren't sworn in.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

It's a reasonable alternate priority (none / 0) (#32)
by localroger on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 04:42:50 PM EST

You're thinking of the 911 tape as evidence first and a public record second, which is reasonable but it's not the way it works here; here it's a public record first and evidence second. We generally don't seal public records just because they become prominent in a proceeding.

It's a practical problem too, since one a record is public making it un-public just alerts the curious that there's something interesting there, and if it's been public you have no practical control of any extant copies. To prevent dissemination you have to exert really draconian control over the press, to an extent the Bill of Rights simply doesn't permit.

It's a different matter with records that are created in secret handled by people who are sworn to secrecy, or evidence which was collected out of the public eye in the course of an investigation; as cockskin horsesuit mentions grand jurors generally have to agree to never talk about cases, because they don't return convictions and they see evidence that might not be admissible in an actual trial.

So it's not like all the evidence from any given criminal trial is indexed on Google; it's that certain kinds of records, including 911 calls, dashcam tapes, and even arrest records, are considered public information, full stop.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity. -- Bill Maher
[ Parent ]

It is evidence first. (none / 0) (#34)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 06:50:38 PM EST

As soon as proceedings become active, with that as the key piece of evidence, it should be withdrawn from any public domain. It would come to light in due course, when the trial starts, and be in the public domain forever then. It wouldn't be withheld forever.

As it is, it's there and people can start judging the defendant, discussing it with others, even before he's entered the dock. That is not a fair trial.

Nor is all evidence on Google expected to be deleted. Nobody imagines that newspapers should have to keep a constant record of every defendant who enters a dock and then go through their online back copies to delete anything they may have mentioned in the past that could be prejudicial. But when new evidence is available in an active case, and is going to go before a jury, I find it absolutely astonishing that it could be placed in the public domain for judgments to start and deliberations to begin ahead of the trial.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

As a practical matter you can't (none / 0) (#36)
by localroger on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 08:13:42 PM EST

...withdraw a public document. Yes, you can do it in Britain because the authorities call the papers and tell them to sit on it, but our constitution specifically forbids that sort of thing. And even in the UK lately squashed stuff has been getting out via the internet and international sources. It might be the more noble and dignified course to hold all the evidence private until the proceedings are concluded, but here we recognize that that just isn't possible if those records have been made public.

We recently had a little stinkstorm here in NOLA because we're having a crime wave, and our police chief decided to start releasing all the murder victims' rap sheets as a sly reminder that it's mostly criminals killing each other. Well a couple of weeks ago we had a young father heroically stop a carjacking, getting killed himself right in front of his two little boys. And there was much foot-dragging about the victim rap sheet, and when it was released after something of a furore from various interest groups it revealed a long departed past of youthful indiscretion. Everyone was pissed.

But the thing is, those are public records and while Chief Serpas certainly didn't need to trot those embarrassing past indiscretions out for the press, he kind of had to because anyone who was interested could go to the court house and get them anyway, and might have done so already if you tried to seal off the copy at the courthouse.

If you seal a public record, it raises a big red flag that says SOMETHING INTERESTING HERE and as sure as God made little fishes, someone is going to have already made a copy and our laws really don't let you stop that person from talking about what they know. Serpas had to humiliate the hero's family because if he didn't, it would have happened anyway even more out of his control.

This is a practical problem because matters that go to trial are often in the news or on interested peoples' radar before there is a trial, and such nosy people might do research in advance. Our laws do not permit the government from stopping them from talking about such stuff, full stop. This is the higher principle in our constitution, and the courts have to deal with it.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity. -- Bill Maher
[ Parent ]

Nobody would have requested the Crawdocs (none / 0) (#38)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Feb 26, 2012 at 03:10:33 AM EST

had we not know Mike had been charged. Since any evidence that could prejudice a trial must be withheld from the public once charges are made (in the UK), we would never have known all this if the information had been withheld from that point onwards. I don't agree that it creates a 'red flag' to say "This is evidence for an upcoming trial. You will hear about it when the trial starts, and the court records will be available to everyone for eternity once it has." We realise here why newspapers can't start spilling all sorts of potentially damaging information about defendants and witnesses when they haven't been tried yet and are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.

These records are not being withheld forever. It's important to remember that.

I realise anyone who's interested could have got them anyway. That's my entire point. If you had a system whereby evidence isn't available once a person is charged, you're much less likely to prejudice your jurors.

Sorry, but I don't believe that someone at 911 would have copied and distributed the 911 calls before Mike was charged. The people who obtained the Crawdocs didn't know they existed until they knew he was charged.

I am all for freedom of speech and information (former journalist, after all), but I'm not all for prejudicing jurors and fair trials by releasing information that will come to light, and stay on public record, in due course.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Uniformity (none / 0) (#40)
by localroger on Sun Feb 26, 2012 at 08:52:57 AM EST

It's not really good enough to say that 90% of the time there wouldn't be uncontrolled copies because nobody knew or was interested before the seal was applied. Laws have to make sense the other 10% of the time too.

There are people who treat it as a hobby to go trolling through these records, and not infrequently dashcam vids end up on YouTube and court documents get posted at The Smoking Gun as a result. If kuro5hin did not exist, the possibility remains that some random person might have stumbled across Mike's 911 rant and simply found it lolcat worthy.

It's not OK to temporarily seal the records because you plan to release the records eventually. It's not OK because the records have already been released and our most fundamental laws don't allow us to unring that bell.

If you don't seal these things from the start, as a practical matter you can't seal them later, at least here; our laws simply do not permit the government to clamp down on that. So what happens between the time the record is created and the trial? Do you keep these public records, which are defined as being property of the people, private for X period of time just in case a trial might one day need them? What is X then? Suppose the trial is the result of a cold case investigation 10 years later? It just doesn't work.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity. -- Bill Maher
[ Parent ]

That's the thing. (none / 0) (#41)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Feb 26, 2012 at 10:11:16 AM EST

Lolcat worthy is not a good enough reason to jeopardise trials. To be honest, under the system the way it should be, Mike's threat would have been reported as soon as it was made, and charges brought before some idiot decided to make the law a lolcow.

Of course it's fine to temporarily seal records in order to ensure that a defendant has a fair trial by jury, especially when you operate under a system in which they'd never have been released before the trial started anyway. A fair trial by jury is one of the fundamental elements of a democracy and a system that's as fair and civilised as any human institution is going to be.

It is fine over here to release information when it is still at investigation level. Charges have not been brought. So if, for example, Mike's call was anonymous, it would be fine for the press to release an excerpt of the recording so that people could hear his voice and identify him. But to subsequently go digging through the call in its entirety, including the crucial evidential moment, while digging up and publishing material about his past that would prejudice a juror? At the point where we know he's going to appear in court for it? That is insanity.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

More uniformity (none / 0) (#42)
by localroger on Sun Feb 26, 2012 at 04:20:26 PM EST

Public records aren't public because of their usefulness whether for dirt-digging or lolcat worthiness; they're public because they're property of the people. Sure a fair trial by jury is important, but so are transparency and freedom of speech. Our system provides the defense pretty powerful tools to reject contaminated jurors and provides for change of venue when the notoriousness of a case makes them too hard to find. (Of course this breaks down somewhat in cases of national prominence, like the O.J. trial, but in those cases you also have a very large pool of jurors to interview.) Those compromises may not be as good as sealing it all up, but once it's been public (because nobody knew there would be a trial) sealing it up requires a very intrusive government action that is both unconstitutional and just draws more attention to the stuff you want to suppress.

And that is what is so great about the internet. It enables pompous blowhards to connect with other pompous blowhards in a vast circle jerk of pomposity. -- Bill Maher
[ Parent ]
Not unless the jury all hangs out at K5 (none / 0) (#28)
by tdillo on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 01:06:04 PM EST

in which case you got bigger problems.

Not to worry though Holly. In most cases (the ones that you don't see Nancy Grace talking about) the jury delivers the verdict expected by the prosecutor so it's very fair and above board.

I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to go fuck yourself.

The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.[ Parent ]

See my response further down. (none / 0) (#29)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 01:09:40 PM EST

In a nutshell: information's either in the public domain, and therefore fine to prejudice a future juror, or it's not, so it isn't.

Actually, juries are generally quite reluctant to convict. People accused of either way offences, which can be tried at a magistrates' court or in a Crown Court by a jury, are usually advised to go for the latter, as acquisition is more likely.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

Maybe in England (none / 0) (#30)
by tdillo on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 01:40:53 PM EST

In Texas we convict frequently. I don't know how they do it up there in Washington State but I bet they ain't too squeamish to send a man to jail in time to get home and watch Judge Judy.

I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to go fuck yourself.

The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.[ Parent ]

Well (none / 0) (#35)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 06:52:22 PM EST

if your average man on the street is keen to convict, I would guess that your average man who has appointed himself as a magistrate would be even keener. But I have no statistics to prove it.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I don't have any statistics either (none / 1) (#37)
by tdillo on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 08:29:20 PM EST

But it is a different culture. You got Merrye Olde England on one hand, stiff upper lip and all that and then you got Texas that puts signs up all over the state that say "Don't Mess With Texas".

They may be a bit more lenient over there in Washington State with the influence of Canada and all that but it is still Western US, you know Cowboys, Miners, Frontier and all that.

I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to go fuck yourself.

The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.[ Parent ]

To clarify (none / 1) (#39)
by HollyHopDrive on Sun Feb 26, 2012 at 03:12:24 AM EST

I meant that I don't have any statistics to prove that would be the case in Texas. It is documented here that jury trials have a lower conviction rate for either way offences than magistrate trials.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

also, why heartbreaking? (none / 1) (#13)
by cockskin horsesuit on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 05:39:31 PM EST

Please explain.

Sad? Yes, for sure. Waste of human life? Welcome to Crawsanity.

But heartbreaking? Worse shit happens every day, and Crawford is not exactly heartbroken by his entirely self-inflicted predicament.

Heartbreaking for poor Pat though, I agree.

[ Parent ]

I'm not denying (3.00 / 2) (#20)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 03:03:37 AM EST

that worse things are happening every day in Darfur, Iraq, Afghanistan, Katy Perry's recording studio and so on. That doesn't mean I can't find a single case with which I'm relatively well acquainted deeply saddening as well.

You nailed it in 'waste of human life'. I don't think anyone denies that Mike IS capable of staying relatively stable and producing good work and, ultimately, of being happy. So the fact he is, for whatever reason, hell bent on a course of self destruction, bringing down anyone he can who cares about him, is heartbreaking to me. I'm not saying I didn't lol hard at Ogg Frog Magazine etc, but I'm finding it really hard to laugh now.

Personally I think it all started with the loss of Bonita. When he was married to her, he was ill sometimes, and he was a linkwhore, and he did some daft things, but it was really nothing compared to what happened after he lost her. She appeared to be a very stabilising influence on him.

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

the Craw was a destabilising influence on Bonita. (3.00 / 2) (#25)
by cockskin horsesuit on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 11:32:13 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Each man kills the thing he loves. (3.00 / 2) (#26)
by HollyHopDrive on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 11:41:22 AM EST

I make too much sense to be on the Internet.
[ Parent ]

I agree with you... (none / 0) (#21)
by mirleid on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 04:20:49 AM EST

...and all I can do is to hope that it will end in any other way but the very public and violent way that I currently see in the cards.

Chickens don't give milk
[ Parent ]
wow. (none / 1) (#16)
by mumble on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 01:41:57 AM EST

Crawford spits out wall-o-texts when he speaks IRL too. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Crawford seems to be in a love triangle too. k5 is gay for Crawford, but his heart and cock is for Tim. I think I counted 16 "Tim"'s in there.

stats for a better tomorrow
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"They must know I'm here. The half and half jug is missing" - MDC.
"I've grown weary of googling the solutions to my many problems" - MDC.
gay4Tim proof: (3.00 / 3) (#17)
by mumble on Sat Feb 25, 2012 at 01:50:56 AM EST

"It would be a huge release to talk to Tim"

stats for a better tomorrow
bitcoin: 1GsfkeggHSqbcVGS3GSJnwaCu6FYwF73fR
"They must know I'm here. The half and half jug is missing" - MDC.
"I've grown weary of googling the solutions to my many problems" - MDC.
[ Parent ]
Crawford's calling, and he's calling you gay. | 46 comments (45 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
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