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[P]
Whiny bitchy people

By BOredAtWork in Op-Ed
Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 09:43:00 AM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

So, I've been watching the SciFi Channel's production of Dune. And reading the slashdot comments about it. When it comes to entertainment today, I'm really amazed at how many whiny bitchy people are out there who have nothing better to do with their time that complain about someone else's work. The Dune miniseries is just one example; I've also got a fistfull of others.

I'm only 21, and I can remember when people would watch a movie, concert, show or game and come away happy to remember to 90% that they enjoyed, rather than dwell on the 10% that they didn't. Today, that doesn't seem to be the general case. Have we become a culture of complainers?


I'm not a Dune junkie. At all. I read the first two books, once each (I hope to read the rest of the series over Christmas sometime). That's it. I never saw the movies, or joined a fan club. I can't name more than a few characters off the top of my head, and can't spell the ones I can name. And you know what? I _like_ the miniseries so far, and I'm looking forward to the final two hours when they air tonight.

I was curious about how it was received by others; and slashdot had upwards of 400 posts. The vast majority of them are of the 'this is SO lame, I can't BELIEVE that Character X looks the way they do" and the "this sucks SO much, I can't BELIEVE that the detail on the 4th line of the 318th page wasn't put in" variety. After a while, I got to thinking about the larger trend that was present: people were whining because it wasn't what THEY thought Dune should be.

Yes, the princess had blonde hair in the book. Yes, the CGI lacked perfection. Yes, the doctor was lacking the diamond in his forehead in the movie. Yes, the hunter-seeker found Paul alone in the room in the book. I just can't see that it matters. To me, it appears that people have let one or two percieved imperfections block them from enjoying the experience at all. It wasn't precisely as they would have it, so they've chosen to rail against the entire thing.

I see the same trend at live concerts. People are always whining at concerts. No matter what the set list is, someone's always bitching about it not having a song they want, or having a song they don't. Someone's always bitching if the band covers a song without doing it beat for beat and note for note with the original. I've seen some really great local bands get boo'd off the stage after putting on a great cover of a classic song. The bitchers and moaners are always there, always shouting about how they have "no right" to play "that song", or "just shouldn't" have changed that particular outro riff. Bitching, moaning, complaining - and immediately forgetting that 20 seconds before this, they were happy for a solid hour.

Going to a movie theater anymore is much the same. Star Wars Episode I, anybody? The first new Star Wars film in roughly TWENTY YEARS, and all people come away saying is "Man, that was SO lame, Qui Gon didn't disappear when he died" and "That sucked SO much, Jar Jar is STUPID." It wasn't 100% what they'd expected, so it was 100% bad.

Slashdot is also a great example. Face it, slashdot (and k5) are/were/will always be a form of entertainment. After slashdot evolved in a few respects (moderation being one), some people decided that it was 100% bad. It didn't matter that they could interact in near real time with people from around the globe. It didn't matter that they had a medium in which to discuss their interests with like minded people. It didn't matter that their thoughts could be heard by a hundred thousand people in the course of a day or two. All that mattered was that it wasn't their vision of perfection, so therefore the whole thing sucked. Some users went to far as to sabatoge the system for others. They couldn't just leave quietly when they no longer enjoyed it, they did their best to make sure nobody ELSE enjoyed it either.

Classic bands face the same problem. If they try to evolve, or do something innovative, they've "sold out". They've "gone soft." Or any number of other supposed evils. Metallica, U2, Aerosmith, Green Day and others have all been targetted by the bitchy whiny people. They didn't stay 100% the same, and do 100% of what the bitchy whiny people wanted them to, so therefore, they must be 100% awful.

I'm wondering... has anybody else noticed this trend? How one can't provide entertainment without people insisting that they be 100% of what they want or be nothing at all. How someone can't make music or art without people insisting that it has no value at all because it's not completely in line with what they expect. How we seem to have degenerated from a society of people eager to experience new things and broaden their horizons into a society of bitchy whiny people.

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Poll
The biggest "sell out" is...
o George Lucas 17%
o The SciFi Channel 0%
o Metallica 27%
o Slashdot 14%
o None of these 7%
o All of these 5%
o The clouds taste blue today 27%

Votes: 149
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Slashdot
o Also by BOredAtWork


Display: Sort:
Whiny bitchy people | 49 comments (39 topical, 10 editorial, 0 hidden)
Proof reading (3.33 / 9) (#2)
by Miniluv on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 08:27:54 PM EST

Normally I don't post about spelling and/or grammar errors. Normally I don't read stories so full of piss and vinegar, and then try to decipher exactly what the sentence actually meant.

Having an opinion is great, being able to express it is even better. Perhaps proof reading your post might help catch the subtle things that can take a post from well written opinion to slightly unhinged rant.

"Its like someone opened my mouth and stuck a fistful of herbs in it." - Tamio Kageyama, Iron Chef 'Battle Eggplant'

Heinlein quotes (none / 0) (#49)
by mad-ness on Sat Dec 09, 2000 at 01:03:59 AM EST

I was going through Lazarus Long's "notes" in Time Enough for Love to send a few of the choice ones to a friend who I had recently turned onto Stranger in a Strange Land. I ended up copying 90% of them. :( I think that Heinlein must have sat around converting his thoughts and beliefs into words and then tearing them down and building them back up over and over again until he found a way to put incredibly complex meaning into short and witty phrases. TAANSTAFL is still one of my favorites.

Insert witty signature here.
[ Parent ]
I don't think it is a problem (3.28 / 7) (#3)
by Scrag on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 08:35:23 PM EST

Why are *you* now whining about people whining? To me it is the exact same thing you complain about.

Not everyone complains about the movies/books/concerts they see/read/goto. Probably only about 10% of the people that saw/read/went complained about it. So you're complaining about 10% of the people, who in turn complain about 10% of a movie? You're saying not everyone is 100% how you want them, so they are 100% bad? You get the point.

I personally thought that Star Wars episode I was a pretty good movie. It definitely *would* have been better without Jar Jar. Argue as much as you want with me, but it's true. If no one ever complains about what they don't like, nothing will ever change. Do you think Jar Jar will have such I huge part in episode II? I certainly don't think so. People talking about what they liked/didn't like is human nature. If people that say something is 100% bad because of one part, maybe that was the most important part to them. I know I certainly would rate a movie lower if the whole thing was good "except for that one part where it completely screwed up the plot, then acted like nothing happened".

If people complain things might get better. Just like people might complain less because of this story ;)


"I'm... responsible for... many atrocities" - rusty
Jar Jar? (1.00 / 1) (#36)
by ralf on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 11:59:18 AM EST

I personally thought that Star Wars episode I was a pretty good movie. It definitely *would* have been better without Jar Jar.
Do know what Jar Jar is? It's the new package format from Sun and LucasArt for Java.
It's twice as good as those old Jar files! :-)

[ Parent ]
self-referential article (3.94 / 17) (#4)
by Jim Madison on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 08:37:38 PM EST

i love this article. Please let me bitch about how everybody bitches too much. So postmodern. Can't we all just get along?

Got democracy? Try e-thePeople.org.
i agree, sort of (3.33 / 6) (#5)
by the_idoru on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 08:52:02 PM EST

i, personally, am a Dune junkie. i see all of the tiny differences between the miniseries and the book.

but i like this version anyway. i think its more true to the book than the movie was (i liked the movie too by the way). i cant see why people are bitching about this version so much. i like it more than the movie cause they have thrown in alot more, and have taken fewer liberties. i like the way they have not included all of the internal monologues of the characters (which are a huge part of the book). they included them in the old movie, and it made for long pauses of a zoomed-in face shot. snore. books are words, movies are speech. big difference. something that you have to take into account if you want to make an entertaining movie, even if you have to deviate from the book to make it work.

but what does one expect? of course its gonna be different. the book is thick. and long. it has a lot of small detail, and the deep character development of the book will never be able to be captured in any movie (so i think). i think the miniseries is well done and i like it, despite its . . . shall we say "creative differences." and ive been rather miffed by the response that it has drawn on slashdot. but, as usually is the case, only the angry post. (example, i have chosen not to post there. but, im also waiting til the damn thing is over before i make too many dudgements.)

now, as far as bitching about music. when a band sells out, sometimes i bitch. why? cause invariably they compromise the quality of their music and sound to appeal to more people. thats bad.


the_idoru

Everything's personal (3.00 / 6) (#6)
by johnzo on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 08:55:58 PM EST

Having rarefied tastes in entertainment is the most obvious way to distinguish one's self from the herd. So people define themselves by the entertainment choices they make.

Look at all of the personal web pages that basically amount to "hey, here's all the ways I amuse myself!"

zo.

They WERE horrible! (2.30 / 10) (#7)
by maynard on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 09:05:24 PM EST

Oh my God. The Dune miniseries IS on sci fi IS terrible; acting???? Star Wars I was abominable; story???? The bands you list DO suck!; musicianship??? I'm sorry, but my personal preference is different from yours, and I see no reason not to present my opinions just because I'm not the creator of these items.

Some things are wonderful. Long days journey into night, Ghosts, King Lear, The sound and the fury, East of eden, Tender is the night... this is what I call good.

--Maynard

Read The Proxies, a short crime thriller.

Personal Preference != Bitching (none / 0) (#44)
by TheDude on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 10:56:04 PM EST

Just because you have different tastes and choose to express how you feel about things doesn't make you a bitcher (in my understanding of the term). Bitching is when you say something sucked just because you didn't like it, and proceed to tell everyone who will listen to you that that something sucked. If you have reasons for not liking something, that's good criticism - if you have no reasons but spout off your rhetoric anyways, that's bitching.

--
TheDude of Smokedot
Drug Info, Rights, Laws, and Discussion
Visit #smokedot on irc.smokedot.org

[ Parent ]
Personal anecdote (3.85 / 7) (#9)
by johnzo on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 09:22:38 PM EST

Forgot to mention this in my other comment...

Once upon a time, I was firmly convinced that I was the last, best Rush fan in the world. This was in the days before I got onto an echo-net bulletin board and discovered that *everyone* in cyberspace (circa 1990, at least) seemed to be a Rush fan.

Anyway. When Rush's Presto album came out, I *hated* it. Loathed it. Could not find a single redeeming thing anywhere in its fifty-five minutes, no matter how many times I forced myself to listen to it. And whenever I listened to any of the old, pre-Presto stuff, I actually felt *depressed.* Over a freaking CD.

Eventually, I got over it. And now, as I'm reading the Dune bleatings over on Slashdot, I'm flashing back to the first time I ever listened to Presto. And I tellya what -- I'm glad that album sucked, because otherwise I might *still* be a jerkoff fanboy.

zo.

Oh, that Rush. (1.80 / 5) (#17)
by CheSera on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 12:33:59 AM EST

When I first skimmed your post I thought you were refering to Rush Limbaugh. I was about to hunt you down and smack you upside the head. But Rush the band is ok. You're forgiven.


============
**TATDOMAW**
============

[ Parent ]
both (1.00 / 2) (#28)
by gregholmes on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 06:00:35 AM EST

Actually, there are fans of both Rush-s, like me!

and the Trees were all made equal ...

... by hatchet ... ax .... and SAW!



[ Parent ]
Another trend (3.50 / 8) (#10)
by Defect on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 09:47:45 PM EST

Note : I understand the hypocrisy involved in the next statement so now that that's taken care of...

Why is it that i've seen more and more people bitching about other people bitching. As soon as one person complains, 2 more start complaining about that person, then people join sides, then it just gets to a point where everyone who doesn't care about other's opinions just get's their head filled with the feedback of a thousand people complaining about opposite but identical things at once.

As for conversions of anything, if people have read a book before watching a movie, they're already going to have preconceived notions of what each character is going to look like and it's really their prerogative. When someone uses the same name as something else, people will already have an idea of what it's going to be. If producers or musicians want to get around that, then either don't do the remake or redo it enough to sustain a different name, otherwise deal with it. There will always be the hardcore's who will only like something the way they've always known, and is that so inconceivable or wrong?

Is it so incredibly ridiculous if someone complains about a producer thinking hamlet's soliloquy was meant to be read in pig-latin? Certain things can take the enjoyment out of a particular experience, and especially if it's at the parting moment, a sour taste is going to be left in your mouth and that's all it takes to ignite the bitch fest.

It's not our job to stop complaining, it's the producers job to make sure we leave feeling happy.
defect - jso - joseth || a link
Tee hee (1.40 / 5) (#11)
by skim123 on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 10:13:37 PM EST

I'm only 21, and I can remember when ...

Tee hee, only 21 and you can already remember the good ol' days! :-)

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


Some of these observations are correct. (3.66 / 3) (#12)
by theR on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 10:38:10 PM EST

I have several things to say about this. My first thought is, everyone has the right to bitch, even if you know nothing relating to the subject you are bitching about. If I or anyone pays $8US to go see a movie, $20-50 for a concert, or sit through ten to twenty minutes of advertising per hour of watching television, it moves you past having the right and into being justified if you want to bitch. You are justified in your bitching because you have experienced what you are bitching about first hand, no?

That does not mean bitching is always warranted or anything close to desirable. In your case, I think it is. You are doing it to make a point. Perhaps you could be more even-handed and convey your complaints in a more enjoyable tone, but a good point is made overall.

The most recent story like this I recall on K5 was the one by DJBongHit. His point seemed to be that there are things to bitch about, but there are things to be happy about, too. The problem is, most people are more vocal when voicing complaints than when they are voicing happiness about something. Is bitching worse now? It's hard to argue for or against an opinion on this one with anything but anecdotal evidence. I do think it is worse than it needs to be.

Yes, I bitch and complain (I'm sure my wife appreciates that acknowledgement). To me, it seems a lot of the reason for some people's complaints these days are to make sure that everyone agrees with them and/or to ensure that everyone else has a similarly bad experience. I don't care if someone can't stand a movie, walks out of the theatre in the middle or at the end, and goes off with friends about how miserable the movie is. I don't care if someone wants to discuss with me afterwords why the movie sucked or didn't suck. I do care if someone bitches in the theatre during the movie, causing his negative opinion to either be forced on me or otherwise negatively affecting my own experience and analysis. If I come to the same conclusion as the person complaining on my own, fine. If I am convinced in a manner that alters my opinion after seeing the movie, that is fine too. But don't try to force an opinion on me, which I think some people do.

The Dune article on Slashdot seems to be a combination of two things to me. One is people bitching because of their honest opinion about the miniseries. The other is people bitching because they think that is what they are supposed to do and that is the opinion of the collective there. The first is understandable, if not always pleasant, while the second is annoying to say the least.

Would I like to see less bitching? My answer is a definite yes. We all have the right to bitch, but if you look around you might realize things aren't so bad and there's not as much worth bitching about as you think.



There is a thing called Quality (3.40 / 5) (#14)
by SIGFPE on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 10:57:16 PM EST

You can't touch it or measure it but when you've learnt to recognise it you know whether it's there or not. Phantom Menace lacked Quality. People weren't complaining because of this or that little thing wrong with the movie - they were complaining because the Quality they expected wasn't there. Sure, they might have bitched and moaned about little things but that's because Quality is hard to point to and talk about. It's easier to talk about those little things. But deep down those people knew the movie lacked Quality. I think you might not have learnt to recognise Quality. In a way that makes you lucky - you're easily satisfied. You're also lucky because you're surrounded by people who do recognise Quality and if it weren't for them the techniques of film and effect making that went into Phantom Menace wouldn't have been developed and so you wouldn't even have mediocrity to enjoy.

Apologies to Robert Pirsig.
SIGFPE
Your tastes aren't superior to mine (none / 0) (#40)
by Broco on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 08:45:43 PM EST

I'm always annoyed by suggestions that because one person doesn't enjoy the same works of art as someone else, they are somehow more enlightened. Art can't be rated in an objective manner. Any critique is based on the personal preferences of the audience, and every audience thinks that theirs is the "right" set of tastes. Liking and disliking the same things as you is something to be "learn"ed? Please.

Try defining this "Quality". I'm certain that I wouldn't agree with your definition, and neither would many of the professional artists whose work you think has "Quality". Does this mean that you know more about art than they?

The truth is that there is nothing good or bad, there is only good for me and bad for me.

Klingon function calls do not have "parameters" - they have "arguments" - and they ALWAYS WIN THEM.
[ Parent ]

Fine, but... (none / 0) (#46)
by SIGFPE on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 11:09:06 PM EST

I don't necessarily disagree with you. Quality is amorphous. There are vast domains where I suspect that you and I do agree as well as domains where we don't.

Let me talk from personal experience. I work in visual effects (relevant because bad CGI was one of the examples). I know a badly animated character when I see one. So do the people I work with. We pretty much have a very wide domain of agreement. Many members of the genral public also tend to be good at spotting bad animation. What's more - the more the public is exposed to varying degrees of animation the fussier they get and for something like Quality of animation they largely agree. When you work in the business you're even fussier. To an outsider it looks like we're fussy to the point of being anal. But once the current batch of movies is released the public will have had more experience of animation and they will learn to recognise Quality animation even more reliably and our job will get harder. There is room for taste here, but not much.

Jar Jar lacked Quality. It was fine for young kids but that's it. Almost everyone who works in visual effects will agree with that and I suspect that most of the audience who make a habit of seeing science fiction also agree. And because people like me thought Jar Jar was crap we will work harder to make sure the next characters we animate are better. If nobody recognised crap when they saw it CGI characters would still be stick figures.
SIGFPE
[ Parent ]
Expecting, not Enjoying (4.71 / 7) (#15)
by TheDude on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 11:12:21 PM EST

People these days seem to expect things, instead of enjoying them when they happen to occur. People expect everything to be great. Well, this world isn't great. So people get let down. When something good does happen, people usually tend to bitch about it being "not [good] enough."

The problem with movies of books is that the people who read (and even more so, those who loved) the book, expect the movie to be exactly the way they imagine the book to be. The strongpoint of books is to bring out our imagination in shaping the story for ourselves. No two people will imagine the book being exactly the same way, so obviously, when someone makes a movie of a book, it's not going to be the way you pictured it. Even if the movie does stay close to the book, there are just some things about the way a book reveals information that you just can't do in a movie. Scenes have to be cut for time considerations, target audience, cost, and a slew of other reasons, I'm sure. So people watch the movie expecting to see the book. Unfortunately, this just can't happen, so many people wil bitch about it.

With concerts, most people there know about the person/group, know at least some of the songs, and some have gone to previous concerts given by that person/group. So they expect to hear the songs they know and like, and expect the concert to be as good as last time. Well, concerts are given by the artists - people who should be allowed to choose which of their songs they will play. Concerts also get played in different places, with different aural/visual settings, and not everyone likes the same songs. People expect to go to a concert and hear all the songs they like, how they like them played. This rarely happens, so people will bitch about it.

As far as art goes, people need to realize that someone else made it, owns it, and chooses whether and how to present it to the general public. You personally did not make the music, write the book, create the movie. Therefore, wouldn't it make more sense to go see a concert or movie expecting nothing, but enjoying what you are given by the creator of the music/words/pictures? Yeah, it's damn hard to expect nothing, but at least you should be ready to have the concert being different every time, or for the movie to be different than how you imagined it when you read the book. The creator of the art put their talent and energy into it - why the need to bitch about their art not being good enough? They made it, dammit. You didn't. If you didn't like the art because it didn't suit your tastes, then fine - but you have no reason or right to nitpick it to death because of that. Critical assessment of the art is good - there is shitty art. But most shitty art is shitty because the artist didn't put enough of themselves into the art, or maybe they just suck at creating that type of art. Banging art just because it didn't fit your expectations, however, is purely bullshit.

Society is a spoiled little brat that expects everything to be they way they want it. Advertising is telling people that you can "have it your way" (I reserve no special hatred for BK, tho, just hate the fries) . Government is telling people "We'll give you what you want" (of course, they don't but people still believe politicians...). I'll say I've noticed a trend similar to what the author mentions. I just can't tell when it started.

--
TheDude of Smokedot
Drug Info, Rights, Laws, and Discussion
Visit #smokedot on irc.smokedot.org

... and advertising gives people a reason to Bitch (none / 0) (#37)
by amokscience on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 12:49:51 PM EST

Your points about expectations are absolutely correct. Expectations can be an joyable thing but all too often the conclusion of those expectations is a bad thing and people respond negatively. Advertising and marketing all too often give us a reason to bitch... the latest, greatest, most stable, biggest, best, fastest, smoothest, ... so many -ests is always being shoved down our throats.

As web users we are particuarly succesptibe to this over expectation through things like fans sites, notable in music, games, and movies (entertainment). Rarey are the hype and expectation generated from these communities and web sites delivered.

eg. People destroyed The Phantom Menace... I rather enjoyed it. I certainy didn't expect a repeat of the spine tingling experience that the original trilogy gave me and that helped me enjoy it more. My friends who would visit the fan sites on a daily basis certainy got a lot of enjoyment out of that anticipation but the payoff was hugely disappointing.

Oh, and I challenge people to find a movie or tv series that was exceedingly better than the print version. The only one that comes to my mind is perhaps The Shawshank Redemption, while the list of the opposite is long and depressing.

Sadly, advertising makes money and without the constant overhyping of material revenues aren't generated. People are sheep. My advice to people is to look forward to what you like but always keep a handle on your expectations. At best you enjoy it much more than expected, at worst you aren't terribly disapppoited. I'm not saying have low standards, just expectations. "Hope for the best, expect worse" ... or sometihng alog those lines (which, in a nutshell, is my outlook on life).

[ Parent ]
Your Challenge (none / 0) (#38)
by jethro on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 02:38:07 PM EST

>Oh, and I challenge people to find a movie or tv
>series that was exceedingly better than the print
>version.

Not exceedingly better, but the movie version of The Princess Bride was every bit as good as the book - even though the plot was not exactly the same, some characters were different, some elements were moved out, some dialog was moved from one character to another, etc - all the things that were "wrong" with the Dune minisiries.

I was enjoying the Dune miniseries, although I haven't watched the whole thing yet.



--
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
[ Parent ]
trend? (2.80 / 5) (#16)
by anewc2 on Tue Dec 05, 2000 at 11:51:17 PM EST

I passed 21 some time back and I can't remember a time when the world was not full of bitchy whiny people. I interpret it as damage and route around it.
The world's biggest fool can say the sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out. -- Robert Pirsig
If you don't like it, don't watch it! (3.25 / 4) (#20)
by Pink Daisy on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 01:38:34 AM EST

I think most popular culture is degenerate pulp. So what? I'm just one person. I'm sure that most people would have similar disparaging thoughts about the entertainment I enjoy. As a result... I just don't bother with most of it. It's really that simple.

I don't watch many movies. When I do, it's joining my friends for something to do. I enjoy their company, and next time we do something else that I can enjoy as an activity.

Sure, I wasn't thrilled watching Star Wars 1, but that's ok. I got the fun of laughing at my kid brother when he spent the next four months pretending to be his hero, Jar Jar Binks.

Something I used to like, Slashdot is becoming much less enjoyable. You know what? When it gets to the point that I'd rather leave than bear with it, I'll leave. Perhaps some day K5 will be overcome by all those people we don't love so much, and I'll try something else. I have better things to do than whine, and as long as I can run, I won't worry about other people whining, either.

Am I a bitchy whiner? (2.75 / 4) (#24)
by Nick Ives on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 04:41:51 AM EST

For the record, I'm one of the people who've started criticising Green Day because of their latest album. I actually quite liked them all the way up to Nimrod (they were the first band that I really got into, way back when I was about 12/13) but their latest effort really is a peice of trash. Its a matter of taste I guess.

Also anyone who goes to a live concert and expects to hear the band play note for note what they recorded in the studio should go home and listen to the damned CD. Nine Inch Nails, for example, *never* play what was recorded in the studio because it'd be impossible. The whole point of the live act is to provide a reinterpretation of the songs. Ditto to any covers they may do, the best covers are those that diverge from the original in new and interesting ways, not those that manage to be perfect copies of the original.

As for the whole /. issue, well, ages ago I made a few posts there to the effect (they were mostly replies to obvious trolls IIRC) that the reason /. was going down the tubes wasnt because of any conspiracy, it wasnt even because of the naked & petrified/hot grits trolls (because the moderation system does work to nuke those pretty effectivly) it was because the majority of the people on /. had a bad attitude and should just lighten up. If everyone just had a more positive outlook and didnt complain so much and worked in a more productive manner to solve problems then the world would be a better place. I got moderated into oblivion, which just goes to show how much some people care about opposing viewpoints.

Of course beyond that the next step is to get everyone to hug each other and spread world peace, love & happiness, but thats a bit far away yet.

It's a reply and shouldn't require a subject (4.00 / 1) (#31)
by davidduncanscott on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 09:07:07 AM EST

Also anyone who goes to a live concert and expects to hear the band play note for note what they recorded in the studio should go home and listen to the damned CD.

Being a little older and a Rolling Stones fan, I thought I'd chime in here with a comment that I once read from (I think) Keith that I'll paraphrase as, "What you hear in concert is how it should sound -- we record the studio version when the song is new, and after a while playing it on the road we get it right."

As for covers, Jagger once claimed that Devo's Satisfaction was his favourite version of the song.

[ Parent ]

[OT] NIN live /was/ the same note for note (4.00 / 1) (#33)
by Anonymous 242 on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 09:42:30 AM EST

The last time I saw NIN live was way back in 1990 on their (or should I say his) Pretty Hate Machine tour. It was mildy entertaining to see a three piece ensemble perform Pretty Hate Machine virtually note for note as it sounded on the album. It was even more entertaining when a drunken Mr. Reznor tripped because he was walking around in circles and unintentionally wrapped himself up with the microphone cable. He stumbled, unplugging his guitar from his amp, and fell into the drum set, knocking them and the drummer over. The best part is that the with the exception of the vocals, the song kept playing note for note just like it appeared on the album. ;)

Either they had an exceptionally quick thinking and brilliantly talented keyboardist or the DAT drive the keyboardist had did more than just load samples.

Personally I hate going to see bands that play things exactly as they sound on the album. Take Ministry's Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste" tour. Four guitars. A bass. Two keyboards. Two drum kits. Their live set was far, far more intense than anything they put out from the studio.

[ Parent ]

Teenagers (3.12 / 8) (#26)
by codemonkey_uk on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 04:46:34 AM EST

I am at risk of beeing flamed out of existance here, but I think your problem is that your reading the opinions of whiny bitchy teenagers.

Slashdot, like it or not, is predomanatly adolecent. As is most of the net.

To old to love unconditionally, to young to appreciate the finer things. Thinking one is perfect results in expecting perfection from others.

---
Thad
"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way." - Bertrand Russell
Exactly (4.00 / 3) (#27)
by linklater on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 05:15:26 AM EST

Your last line sums it all up. An angry young man bitching about the amount of angry young men around.
---- 'Who dares not speak his free thought is a slave.' - Euripides
[ Parent ]
I've noticed this too. (3.40 / 5) (#30)
by reshippie on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 08:57:53 AM EST

And it bothers me. Every once in a while I catch myself nitpicking a movie, or tv. Once I realize what I'm doing, I just sit back, and tell myself that it's fake, and I should just enjoy it.

The thing that really bothers me is that geeks are known, or perceived, as a group that does this all the time. Like the stereotype of someone at a scifi convention questioning an actor about inconsisitensies in their script. Actors don't write the story, they just bring life to it.

I'm not so sure about society in general, but I do think that geeks tend to complain about errors a lot.

Those who don't know me, probably shouldn't trust me. Those who do DEFINITELY shouldn't trust me. :-)

Book != movie (3.25 / 4) (#32)
by Alternity on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 09:31:18 AM EST

Your article reminds me very much of a movie critics I read a couple of days ago. It was a review of fight club that teh guy did in 2 parts. First he threw in his first impressions just after seeing the movie. He had read the book twice before and at first he thought "Hey that sucks! Not like the book!" After a couple more days he watched the movie again and wrote a new review where he said that the reason why he thought the movie sucked is that he went to see it as a book adaptation and not as a movie in its own. After seeing the movie through that angle (throwing away his expectations )he liked it much more.

Now for musical bands "selling out" it's IMHO a totally different thing. People start to say that a band "sold out" when they move from their style which identify them to create music for the masses, music that they know will be a commercial success.


"When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun...
so one day when I was six I did
"
Using the other site as an example (3.33 / 6) (#34)
by BOredAtWork on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 09:42:47 AM EST

Why is it that any argument which references the other site appears to be discounted by a great number of k5 readers...? Looking through the comments I got from this, I see "this is k5, not slashdot, -1" repeated over and over again.

Yes, slashdot discussed some of the things I mentioned. According to some of you, that makes discussing those things (or the slashdot reaction to them) here on k5 some sort of sin.

We discussed Carnivore, despite the fact that Wired and CNN have, too.

We discussed the US Election, despite the fact that every other media outlet in the world has, too.

Any given day, half of the discussions on k5's front page reference things that were first reported elsewhere. That's not a bad thing, by any means. Why is it that something posted on slashdot is held up to "special" standards here - namely, that it's almost forbidden to talk about it here if it's shown up there?

Come on, folks. The whole point of this writeup was to draw attention to how people today have an all-or-nothing outlook on enjoying entertainment. The reaction on slashdot about the Dune miniseries is highly relevant. If you don't like the writeup I did, fine. If you think I'm an ass, fine. If you just flat out disagree with me, fine. But if your mind closes as soon as you see "slashdot" appear in the writeup, maybe you need to reconsider.

grep bitch (3.50 / 4) (#35)
by acidos on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 10:15:07 AM EST

File -> Save As...
bitchy.html


$ grep bitch bitchy.html | wc -l
27
$ _


Error in your code (none / 0) (#42)
by Chris Andreasen on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 10:49:37 PM EST

When you grep a file it prints the entire line on which a matching pattern was found, so you're counting not only every occurance of the word "bitch," but also the words next to them. There are nine occurances of the word bitch in the text (including title), not 27.
--------
Is public worship then, a sin,
That for devotions paid to Bacchus
The lictors dare to run us in,
and resolutely thump and whack us?

[ Parent ]
Error in your code (none / 0) (#43)
by Chris Andreasen on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 10:51:32 PM EST

When you grep a file it prints the entire line on which a matching pattern was found, so you're counting not only every occurance of the word "bitch," but also the words next to them. There are nine occurances of the word bitch in the text (including title), not 27.
--------
Is public worship then, a sin,
That for devotions paid to Bacchus
The lictors dare to run us in,
and resolutely thump and whack us?

[ Parent ]
Nevermind... (none / 0) (#45)
by Chris Andreasen on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 11:02:36 PM EST

I'm tired, didn't see the "-l", and was under the assumption that you were critiquing the story, not the story and everyone else's comment. Forget everything I just said...
Of course, I'm one to use a sledgehammer to drive a nail, anyways... in my tired state I probably would've done something along the lines of
grep bitch ./test.html | sed 's/^.*\(bitch\).*$/\1/' | wc | awk '{print $1}`
--------
Is public worship then, a sin,
That for devotions paid to Bacchus
The lictors dare to run us in,
and resolutely thump and whack us?

[ Parent ]
No wait... (none / 0) (#47)
by Chris Andreasen on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 11:15:59 PM EST

Now that I think of it, the code is wrong since it doesn't take into account that the word bitch could occur twice or more on one line. How 'bout something like this:
for i in $(grep bitch ./test.html) ; do echo $i ; done | grep bitch | wc -l
Damn... I've gotta learn to control my urges to hit the post button before clearly thinking these things out...
--------
Is public worship then, a sin,
That for devotions paid to Bacchus
The lictors dare to run us in,
and resolutely thump and whack us?

[ Parent ]
Star Wars, and U2 (3.50 / 2) (#39)
by aphrael on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 04:55:20 PM EST

Part of the problem with Star Wars: Episode 1 is that it couldn't possibly have lived up to expectations. Star Wars itself was revolutionary; it was unlike anything that had ever been done in the movie theatre before, and it blew everyone away in a way. What I wanted from EP1, and the same was true for most of my friends, was something which would be every bit as revolutionary and exciting and incredible as SW; and when it wasn't that, when it was merely a passingly good SF movie, I was disappointed. Was it horrible? No. Was it what i had hoped for it to be? No. Was it reasonable of me to have had that hope? Probably not.

The thing with U2 totally blew me away. They went through a period in the mid-90s where they were experimenting with melding their traditional sound with light trance/techno --- and they were excoriated for it; their fans hated it because it wasn't U2, so they must have sold out; techno people hated it because it was U2, and they couldn't imagine good techno from U2. Now that U2 has given up on that tack (which was a lot of fun; pop was, in my opinion, their most innovative album in a decade) and gone back to their traditional sound, they're getting rave critical reviews.

Maybe experimenting isn't something we believe in artists doing?

Speaking of such things, there's a choreographed skateboarding-dance performance art thing in oakland the next couple of weeks; i need to find a way to go to it. :)

Expectation and what we actually get. (4.50 / 2) (#41)
by blixco on Wed Dec 06, 2000 at 10:29:08 PM EST

Marketing. This is why people bitch and whine. People are basically victims, suckers for the slick marketing that is pounded down their throats. Marketing takes a HUGE amount of money and has helped produce a HUGE amount of technology that has gone a LONG WAY towards changing society. I liken it to loud noise: your mind eventually compensates for it, so they have to turn up the volume.

So we're being told (or it's being suggested strongly) that we're going to absolutely LOVE and KILL for and DIE for the next great thing from Lucas or Coke or Britney or Sony or God or Washington or WTO or NiN or X. And a LOT of us fall for it, and we buy it...and ya know what? It turns out that marketing is all about lying.

So we buy into this lie, and the thing we buy isn't nearly as COOL as they sold it to be. My PS2 drops frames when I'm watching Naked Lunch on DVD, so it's a 300 dollar piece of crap that I wish would fall from space on the head of the leader of Sony, that communist fucker.

And then we feel ridiculous and victimised and sick about being lied to and not having ANY POWER to stop it. So we whine and bitch and complain because we're complacent and our time is worth more than the pursuit of our happiness.

It's going to only get worse as marketing becomes more subtle, more targeted, and more slipstreamed into our subconsciousness, and the products stay cheap and keep margins high, and our complacency increases as things become easier to replace.

So yeah, we do bitch a lot as a people. I'm trying to be less prone to marketing (see www.adbusters.com) and doing my best to not kill everyone.

-------------------------------------------
The root of the problem has been isolated.
Minority (none / 0) (#48)
by Girf on Thu Dec 07, 2000 at 08:18:34 PM EST

I remember a thought I once had, the kind you have just walking down the street, you say it outloud and everyone around you thinks you're nuts..

The media trys it's best to appeal to the masses, hence the name 'mass media'. Yet what they don't realize is that the whole of society is made up of many minoritys (eg, the big one we have the male and female genders, they are distinctly different.); therefore a majority doesn't really exist.

Now, since the media is trying to appealling to what they have found to be the majority, which is most likely the largest minority; that minority is being served well, except the majority is being left in the dark, rejected by media. That is where your whiny bitchy people are.

When the people in charge actually cared about actual people, it was good; but in today's society, when the best we can do is hit the largest minority, there will be the whiners, and the bitchers, and they will outnumber you.

-Girf

Whiny bitchy people | 49 comments (39 topical, 10 editorial, 0 hidden)
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