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Strategic Government.

By Jacques Chester in Op-Ed
Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 04:27:33 PM EST
Tags: Politics (all tags)
Politics

It's a debate which has been raging ever since Friedman stepped up to Keynsianism and said, "bollocks". The Government has an economy before it and a whole umbrella of goods and services below it. What should it do? Where should it spend the money? And where should it find the money to pay for it all?

I'd like to sketch some ideas on ways in which the government can avoid debts, depoliticise funding of controversial programs, and perhaps even cut taxes. I introduce the ideas of the "Service Maintainence Fund", autonomous revenue, and a loose doctrine for deciding how and when Governments should intervene in an economy.

Please note, the article is long, involved, and ever so snooty :)


The War of Doctrines

There has emerged in the last few decades of debate two basic doctrines for Government involvement in the economy. The first of these comes from the Keynsian camp, which advocates a high-intervention approach. Spending to boost demand, price-control boards and so on are all proposals that have ultimately come from the idea that a pure market economy will not run itself very well.

On the other hand is the low-intervention or zero-intervention camp, which bears many labels - "Monetarism" in the US and economics circles; "Neoliberalism" or "Neoclassicism" in Europe and Latin America; "Economic Rationalism" in Australia. The argument runs that Government intervention, while well-meant, has no deeply beneficial effect. Indeed, rationalists argue, intervention can be positively harmful to a market economy.

This is the field of play onto which the Government finds itself thrust as an unwitting pawn of the two doctrines. As these doctrines go in and out of fashion, Governments make and unmake whole structures, policies and programs. Politicians face the daunting task of delivering low inflation, strong employment, vibrant profits, healthy trade figures and oh, by the way, providing lots of services along the way.

Sound impossible? Arguably, and according to the orthodoxy, it is. Flummoxed and flustered, our leaders will understandably turn to those high priests who promise to guide them to economic and political nirvana. These men and women, with all their esoteric theories and formulae, are the spiritual descendents of Kabbalists and Hermeticists. Their trade is of magic numbers - of right alignment of economic stars and prognostication of the future. Understandably, the various houses of magic hold deep disagreements - even grudges - in themselves and between each other. It is no wonder then that Government is deployed as a beefy footsoldier in this war of minds.

Currently, monetarism is the ascendant star of economics. Thatcher, Clinton & Bush Jr, Keating & Howard - all these leaders have preached the neoclassical gospel of free trade, free markets, privatised services and minimal Government. For these men and women, there is no God but Market, and Friedman is Its Prophet.

But it's not really working as promised, so far. The neoliberals say "just wait awhile. It'll be good before too long. Just wait and see". But they said that in the Great Depression, when Keynes stepped in and said "No. Failure to intervene here is failure to save the economy from its own inability to break the Depression".

But what alternative is there, if Keynsian theory won't cut it?

Strategic Government

I think that there really is another way for the Government to work with the economy to help make things better. I'd call it the "Third Way", but that term has been hijacked by monetarism married to wishful thinking. Instead I call this approach Strategic Government. Strategic, because the Government ceases to worry about the day-to-day things, instead taking the long view.

There are four basic pillars of Strategic Government. These are, in approximate order of execution: the Service Maintainence Fund; Autonomous Funding; Appropriate, Pragmatic Intervention and Longview Government.

The Service Maintainence Fund

Governments provide services. Despite the monetarist admonition to allow the market to provide all possible services, there nevertheless remains a legacy of Governmental provision of a whole range of services. Typically, in boomtimes, Governments created lavish, extensive welfare states. However, when the economy has turned down, and as welfare and other services have grown relatively more expensive to support, it's come to pass that during downturns Governments have been unable to fund these services from general revenue - that is, taxes.

At this point, a Government has faced a stark and ugly choice: either cut the service (and thus face new hardships and political trouble), raise taxes (same again), or to borrow the difference. Many Governments have in the past elected to borrow, leaving modern Governments with a debt burden that is only now being lifted. The question has then become, "What shall we do with all this new money?"

Some have advocated tax cuts, others new spending, but none have examined the circumstances that brought them there in the first place.

The idea of the SMF is very simple. When the economy is down, you will be running deficit budgets. When it is up, you will run surplus budgets. Rather than borrowing when down and paying back when up, save during the good times to soften the hard times. In a sense, the SMF is little more than a giant rainy day account for the Government.

The broader idea is to smooth out the bumps of Governmental spending. This means that the Government has more room to move when thinking longterm. It does not need to be so much in fearful awe of the future. It knows that it is better equipped to ride out the ups and downs of the economy, moving more gently across the waves of time. Thus the Government can grant itself the luxury of true strategic vision, unconcerned that today's Grand Program will be scrapped for funding reasons tomorrow. Thus health, education and welfare can be preserved at high levels during the downswings, when they are most needed, without incurring debts that will compound and suck up resources in the upswings.

There are details for an SMF, typically political. One is to tamperproof the Fund from the hands of vote-hungry, pork-barelling politicians. This is most especially true in the US, whose Governmental design makes pork-barelling a better-than-even bet. This may involve the elevation of the SMF to the kind of untouchable sanctity that Reserve Banks enjoy around the world, possibly even subsuming the SMF to be part of the bank's role.

Another detail is to define where the money is spent. As the name suggests, the Service Maintainence Fund is meant only to fund Services - not to pay for new capital works. Whereas services are a kind of /dev/null for cash, as a generalisation, capital works such as highways and railroads and new fiber are good for the economy. Their benefit begins as soon as they are built, so it makes sense that money is loaned for their construction. Compare and contrast with business practise - firms will pay workers from revenue and for machinery with loans. A firm that pays for workers with loaned money is not following good practise.

Autonomous Funding

Governments are typically used as a kind of funding clearinghouse for everything from roadworks to modern dance theatre. All of this costs money which must be sourced every year in taxes. The problem is that not everyone agrees on where that money should be spent. In particular, spending disputes at lower levels tend to be bumped up to higher levels of Government. The leadership behaviour in democratically-led bureaucracies quickly devolves to shotgun micromanagement. Today it is the curriculum in schools, tomorrow it is the funding of shock-tactic artworks. The binding thread in all of these bushfire engagements is money - the money floweth down, and the bullshit riseth up.

If seperate parts of Government have independent, autonomous sources of cash, they are less able to try and distract the leaders from the ideal of strategic foresight. When the Arts Council (whatever it is called in each place) has its own, non-revenue funding, then it will have nobody to blame for its idiocies but itself. The vicious little art-world catfights can be firmly sealed within the art community, far less able to distract upper leadership.

But how is this miracle to be achieved? Surely modern art, defence, schools and so on must be subsidised, cannot turn a profit, need the support of General Revenue? Yes, and no.

The answer is to endow Government bodies with investment capital. The centre of this approach - Government owning Capital - is held in common with the SMF and constitutes a radical departure from most theories about how Governments should relate to the rest of the economy.

When this is put, it is often argued that extracting profits and rents is no different from extracting taxes. Superficially this seems to be the case. The difference, however, is that investment capital has a positive function as well - the profits were generated because there was already money in the economy doing work. Taxes, on the other hand, must be extracted by legal force and held in escrow until a budget is handed down (the details vary from country to country). In short, if there is a choice between extracting legitimate profits or taking taxes, it may be more reasonable for the Government to favour profits.

When there are downturns in the economy, and the returns from funds are reduced, then the various autonomous agencies can petition the Government to allocate them a share of the money being released from the Service Maintainence Fund - another example of the smoothing-out design of the SMF system. Indeed, the SMF can fund far more programs if they are already partly self-funded, or can be much smaller.

Again, there are details of execution which would need to be more precisely involved. Primarily, this of the schedule of shifting Government agencies from general revenue to autonomous funds. Obviously, this would be difficult to do in one swift movement. The Government would need to embark on a long program of building funds. As a general rule, select 10% as your 20-year rate of return, and factor in inflation, and you find you will need somewhere between 10 and 30 times as much capital as you will receive revenue. For the Australian Government, a budget of $90 billion dollars (this is not an accurate figure) would represent somewhere between $900 and $1.8 trillion dollars of capital. Obviously this cannot be accrued in one year, or even ten years.

The good news is that there are compounding returns to scale. Once 3-5 years of cash have been placed into the SMF, surpluses can then be invested steadily into the various autonomous funding bodies established by the Government. As the amount of funding from autonomous funds increases, the funding from general revenue decreases. This spare cash can then be invested in speeding up the establishment of other autonomous funds.

Autonomous funding leads to a more market-like kind of Government. The great beauty of the market is that - with its stringent trial mechanisms - it tends to be "close to the metal" on many issues. Certainly, it can be distorted by mass hysteria, demand-generating advertising and several other mechanisms well-known to its critics, but on the whole it is less vulnerable to the gross errors and maladaptive behaviours which bureacracies breed so easily.

When the Government spends more time looking outward to its audience, it might become a better Government. Most importantly, however, autonomous funding will help to slow the deluge of minutiae which gushes upwards to take time away from the business of strategic vision. In short, it helps to restore Leadership where currently there is only Management.

Appropriate, Pragmatic Intervention

One of the hottest points of contention in the War of Doctrines is as to when - or even if the Government should intervene in the market. It is on this issue that we have seen the most dramatic expressions of doctrine from politicians. Privatisation, deregulation and free trade policies are all sons and daughters of the rationalist approach of minimising Government.

Like the previous doctrine of nationalised firms and broad Governmental strictures controlling industries, there have been problems. Privatisation of public utilities has been nortoriously troublesome almost everywhere in the world it has been tried. Deregulation has led to rapid rises in prices, reduction of services and outbreaks of dodgy corporate behaviour. Free trade has led to the infamous "race to the bottom".

Please understand that I do not view the market as somehow intrinsically evil - nor do I see Governments as somehow magically endowed to more perfectly protect us from the market's excesses. Instead, I view that markets are such as they are. It is important for any Government seriously concerned with serving its constituency to remove the blinkers of this doctrine and that theory and to bluntly, frankly appraise the situation.

When deciding on intervention, the Government must first decide what it wants to happen. Does it want prices to fall? Consumer or worker exploitation to be stamped out?

Next the Government must select a program of involvement which lets the market do the heavy lifting. The best way to do this is to use "Horses for Courses". If a pure market will best meet your goal, go for the pure market. If a state-subsidised welfare-maximising monopoly meets your goals, do that instead. Do not sacrifice effectiveness and appropriateness for some shining doctrine.

A lot can be said on this particular issue, but I won't explore the details here. Suffice it to say that there are far more options than a free market advocate would have you believe. Hybrid monopoly-market approaches, externality feedback, social policy bonds and suchlike are methods which reduce Government intervention to a minimum, instead allowing the market to do the work.

Longview Government

This is the final pillar of Strategic Government. Of the decision of what to include in Strategic Government, Longview Government represents the most subjective choice. Really, it is an extension of Appropriate Intervention with sprinklings of good old fashioned Nationalism.

Longview Government is where the Government takes part in bootstrapping new industries. Marx, while wrong on some things, correctly pointed out that new industries are more profitable than old ones. It makes sense that economies should try to reach out for the new just as much as they cling to the past.

Alas, while markets are excellent in working in the here and now, they are infamously reluctant to look beyond that (except when they go diametrically the other way and anticipate the impossible). In short, markets are good optimisers, but poor strategists. And as Abrash observed: "Premature optimisation is the root of all evil".

The idea is to take on strategic tasks that the market will do as much by itself. Infrastructure and R&D are the two major categories of work where the market is happy to use by not to establish. Australia enjoys an excellent phone network which helps Australian business to prosper - but no business would have built it.

Longview Government involves establishing a Basic Research Fund (physics and so forth)and a Radical Technology Fund (space, nanotech and so forth). Allied to these two basic funds is a collection of social goal bonds and Government-insured demand for technologies. The same group of policies would necessarily include a tax structure favourable to research.

All Together Now

Where does this leave us?

Strategic Government really is about re-engineering the business of Government so that it can focus on the big picture rather than the minor details. It seeks to reduce reliance on tax revenue, provide a buffer against economic uncertainty and to prevent management details from cutting into leadership time. Over time the Government can follow up these programs by gently cutting back taxes. Reducing taxes while maintaining spending is pretty much unassailable as a positive policy step. In particular it means that Joe and Jill Taxpayer spend less of their working hours working for the Government and more working for themselves and each other.

In summary, Strategic Government tries to:

  • Smooth out funding
  • Provide buffer security for planning
  • Reduces the flow of irrelevant minutiae to leadership
  • Reduces reliance on taxes, and
  • Provides nation-building, strategic direction for the Government as a whole.
Cynically, I do not expect too much of this package to be implemented now or in the near future. It's a shame, really. Imagine a Government whose focus is long-term and whose vision really is a Vision. Imagine a democracy where we talk about the future as what we'd like to see, rather than what we are afraid of. Imagine it, take a deep breath, and think about what you might do to help make it happen.

Thankyou for reading.

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What is the Government's proper role in an economy?
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Related Links
o Hybrid monopoly-market approaches
o externalit y feedback
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Strategic Government. | 78 comments (78 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Government vs. market (3.20 / 10) (#1)
by tftp on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 07:02:52 AM EST

Good government is better than free market. Bad government is worse than free market. The point is that free market is a self-regulating, self-balancing entity whereas any government is far from being self-regulating. If anything, a government has a positive feedback loop built in - which is not exactly a stabilizing factor :-)

If you can not choose the "good" government then free market probably is the lesser evil, on average. The article assumes that a good, wise government can be elected. I doubt that. Did we ever have a government on this planet - anywhere, at any time - that could be trusted with such plan?

more market-like kind of Government

I am sure, any government would love that :-) Just imagine a government which influences laws, issues some laws on its own - and is at the same time a largest player on the market. It will dwarf Microsoft's monopoly. It will be The Monopoly regardless of what it is doing, a biggest private company financed by taxpayers. We don't have a problem finding presidential candidates right now; just think how appealing that position can be!

You've misread me. (3.75 / 4) (#2)
by Jacques Chester on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 07:10:22 AM EST

When I say, "a more market-like kind of Government", I do not mean "a Government which is in business". I mean a Government which has a more flatter, more organic structure. Information in bureaucratic hierarchies has a harder time rising cleanly than it does in a cellular, market-like nature. The market is evolution.

The article is not about advocating one doctrine or the other - it is about new approaches to the whole business of Governmental behaviour in the economy.

Otherwise ... cheers :)

--
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[ Parent ]

Some information (3.50 / 2) (#12)
by ubu on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 08:24:55 PM EST

The problem is that you propose to turn the government into a quasi-free market entity with executive and legislative powers. The obvious conflict of interest is the least of your worries. You are violently denying the reality of economic operation.

Government simply empowers certain special-interests in a unilateral fashion; that is its only function, period. It is used to enact and enforce legislation which achieves special ends; your example, public funding for the arts.

In a free market, only those things which are productive are funded. Productivity is determined by the consumers of product; as long as the market operates freely then supply of productive goods and services will spur wealth.

If a product is not sustained by a free market then there is no productive use for it. Your proposal is that unproductive goods that the free market will not sustain (the traditional government output) should be forced upon the free market by government coercion. Not a new idea, of course; you are simply proposing that decentralized methods could be used to squeeze more money out of productive uses and into unproductive government uses. Hence, public funding for "the arts" is used to bolster a narrowly-defined sector of artistic endeavors economically simply because nobody wants it enough to pay for it themselves, *but* which continues to survive politically because someone in power likes it. In such situations, spending other peoples' money is ever so convenient; your proposal is simply that public money can be drawn from productive investment accounts *back* into public coffers by placing them under government purview.

Your central flawed assumption -- one which you share with Keynesians and Monetarists alike -- is that government is necessary for the supply of goods and services. By definition, those goods which the market will not freely provide are unproductive. As long as government advocates insist that unproductive goods and services are necessary their proposed free market/government hybrid economy will continue to defy it own basic foundations.

It's almost that simple. Involuntary taxation is, by definition, the coercive seizure of funds for goods and services which the public will not freely buy from the government. If you do not understand this then you will never understand why the marketplace operates as it does, and you really have nothing to add to an economic discussion.

You must bear in mind that every dollar spent on unproductive goods, jobs, etc. will be one less dollar spent on productive market supply -- supply which is voluntarily supported by willing consumers. It's easy to hide the cost in a large economy, when the cost is relatively small, but as the US government grows to outrageous proportions it will be increasingly difficult to justify the gross expenditure of public funds on unproductive public projects. One example of this is the rise of casino gambling.

Ubu
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[ Parent ]
Some disinformation :) (5.00 / 2) (#15)
by Jacques Chester on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 11:53:46 PM EST

The problem is that you propose to turn the government into a quasi-free market entity with executive and legislative powers. The obvious conflict of interest is the least of your worries. You are violently denying the reality of economic operation.

I don't believe that I have proposed such a thing. Again, I reiterate: I do not say that the Government should go into business, but rather that it should own income-producing capital. Said capital can do work in the Economy, and the profit-taking will not have the onerous weight of a normal, extracted-by-law tax.

In a free market, only those things which are productive are funded. Productivity is determined by the consumers of product; as long as the market operates freely then supply of productive goods and services will spur wealth.

I do not agree with your simplistic outlook on the nature of markets. While markets can be marvelous optimising agents, it does not follow that they will be. Markets are driven by profit-maximising firms. If the goal of profit maximisation means distorting the market and screwing the so-called Consumer Sovereign, then it will happen. Look at the market from the firm's side of the fence and it is more complex and more prone to abuse than what you're told in Freshman Economics about "Perfectly Competitive Markets".

If a product is not sustained by a free market then there is no productive use for it.

More accurately, one should say that the market has no use for it today. Markets are near-term optimising systems, not all-seeing Gods. They are just as much subject to their social context as anything else is.

Besides, despite your assertion that the market can spot a bad pick, it keeps on making them. Dotcom bubble, anyone? You cannot look me in the eye and tell me that it was a totally rational behaviour that the market exhibited.

Your proposal is that unproductive goods that the free market will not sustain (the traditional government output) should be forced upon the free market by government coercion. Not a new idea, of course; you are simply proposing that decentralized methods could be used to squeeze more money out of productive uses and into unproductive government uses ... your proposal is simply that public money can be drawn from productive investment accounts *back* into public coffers by placing them under government purview.

It's arguable as to what the market would and would not support. However, the point of Autonomous Funding is that it is preferable to draw revenue from productive capital than from retardant taxes. You make the subtle but excellent point that money otherwise reinvested is siphoned off, but at least the capital-ownership gets "one bash with the stick", so to speak.

Hence, public funding for "the arts" is used to bolster a narrowly-defined sector of artistic endeavors economically simply because nobody wants it enough to pay for it themselves, *but* which continues to survive politically because someone in power likes it. In such situations, spending other peoples' money is ever so convenient ...

Again, Autonomous Funding removes responsibility for these non-core items from the Government's more central concerns. In a sense it is the "spinning off" of a whole range of hot potatoes which are best left to their own devices. Out of budget, out of mind.

Your central flawed assumption -- one which you share with Keynesians and Monetarists alike -- is that government is necessary for the supply of goods and services.

I don't believe that I assume any such thing. I merely acknowledge that for one reason or another, Governments have found themselves in the position of providing services. Specifically, I wrote:

Governments provide services. Despite the monetarist admonition to allow the market to provide all possible services, there nevertheless remains a legacy of Governmental provision of a whole range of services.

The discussion of the SMF does not take sides on whether the Government should provide services or not. It merely points out that if there are services, then the SMF would be a better way to smooth out funding and prevent Governmental debts. Actual spending levels is really in the purview of the Government of the day.

By definition, those goods which the market will not freely provide are unproductive.
(Emphasis mine)

Again, you've mistaken the models for the reality. Markets are ruthless optimisers, but they are also complex systems. They behave in ways that continue to surprise. They will cheerfully break your definition at the first profitable or hysterical opportunity.

Let me quote myself again:

... while markets are excellent in working in the here and now, they are infamously reluctant to look beyond that ... markets are good optimisers, but poor strategists.

That's the problem with your thesis that markets only support productive goods. They tend only to support goods that are productive today, at the most, later today. They do not like speculative R&D, no matter how much you quote NASA's 7-for-1 return on invested R&D dollars. No matter how much you discuss Maxwell's Equations, supported by a public University.

There are exceptions to this rule, of course, and I can hear you gleefully gathering them together for a stinging rebuttal. "Bell Labs!" you cry, naming one of the most concentrated sources of revolutionary technology in the last century. "Microsoft! IBM! Compaq! Sun!" you continue. All of them private firms with large, long-term R&D budgets, typically the majority of which is funded from their own private revenue.

But look again. Bell, MS, IBM, Compaq, and Sun: these are all companies which have enjoyed monopolistic or oligopolistic positions within their markets. In fact, they hate the free market because it cuts into their profits. Companies with high R&D budgets are companies which are not facing stiff competition. They are not participating in your perfectly competitive market at all. They taking super-normal profits out of the market.

Firms in the perfectly competitive model do not have spare money to spend, period. Firms in real, competitive markets operate on tight margins and are in no mood to spend big bucks on speculative R&D or fundamental research projects. When you take away monopoly profits, the market cannot quickly develop new technologies by itself.

The other places where new technologies are developed is in Universities. This is easy. Universities are funded mainly by Governments large surplus-profit companies (like MS) or by their own investment capital. Thus they too must rely on a source of income which does not come from a super-optimised market.

Thanks for your comments on the article.

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[ Parent ]

More information (2.00 / 1) (#18)
by ubu on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 02:08:32 AM EST

Markets are driven by profit-maximising firms.

No! Markets are driven by producers and consumers voluntarily exchanging goods. The fairy-tale world envisioned by you and others who use such strawman descriptions of a capital market is just silly. You and I are as potent -- as actors in the market -- as any corporation, inasmuch we are acting to maximize our own profit... by every transaction we conduct.

If the goal of profit maximisation means distorting the market and screwing the so-called Consumer Sovereign, then it will happen.

Look, if this is the depth of your economic understanding you frankly have no business proposing new marcoeconomic solutions. Moreover, if you think that there is a role for government in righting some sort of cosmic economic injustice, you're as naive as they come. The US Government soaks up a gigantic percentage of the GDP every year through involuntary taxation, yet it can't seem to operate in the black on even those humongous revenues. Yet somehow, you think that this organization, dedicated to screwing people under the auspices of the Nation Sovereign, is going to protect your private interests.

Look at the market from the firm's side of the fence and it is more complex and more prone to abuse than what you're told in Freshman Economics about "Perfectly Competitive Markets".

I don't give a rat's ass about "Perfectly Competitive Markets", whatever that means. What I care about are the productivity and voluntary nature of the free market. If there were only one movie theatre in the entire world it would still have to sell me movie tickets -- until the government decided to pass a law either subsidizing the theatre or forcing me to attend the movies.

Besides, despite your assertion that the market can spot a bad pick, it keeps on making them. Dotcom bubble, anyone? You cannot look me in the eye and tell me that it was a totally rational behaviour that the market exhibited.

Of course I can, and I do. The very fact that investment capital was available and willing to chase high-risk ventures speaks well of the US economy. Moreover, the bubble was expected by much if not most of the representative capital invested in the "dotcom revolution". The investments were made, regardless, because of expectations that in the long run those investments would yield returns on one competitor or another.

You're using the same faulty, anthropomorphic logic used by most laymen. Economies do not act with one accord; they are constituted of millions of individual actors behaving not in concert, but on their own behalf. Humans are often mistaken but they are also adaptive; if the "dotcom revolution" was, by and large, a poor investment, we would expect to see an overall change in investor behavior as a result of diminished expectations. I think that we're seeing such a change now. The entire "revolution" has taken place over what, 5 years?

It's arguable as to what the market would and would not support.

No, it's not, and you're still missing the point. You do not argue over what the market will support, you let the market choose what it will support. Otherwise you are coercing market behavior; on what grounds do you justify that?

However, the point of Autonomous Funding is that it is preferable to draw revenue from productive capital than from retardant taxes.

It makes little or no difference; you are still drawing capital from the free market. What difference does it make that said capital comes out of the aggregate-investment pool? I take that back, it probably makes some material difference due to increased government oversight in the investment market.

You make the subtle but excellent point that money otherwise reinvested is siphoned off, but at least the capital-ownership gets "one bash with the stick", so to speak.

Which is negated by the original fund-raising effort. You may have heard that money doesn't grow on trees, not even investment capital.

Again, Autonomous Funding removes responsibility for these non-core items from the Government's more central concerns. In a sense it is the "spinning off" of a whole range of hot potatoes which are best left to their own devices. Out of budget, out of mind.

I don't understand exactly what you mean. Privatization? Or simply reorganization? If the latter, the benefits escape me.

The discussion of the SMF does not take sides on whether the Government should provide services or not. It merely points out that if there are services, then the SMF would be a better way to smooth out funding and prevent Governmental debts. Actual spending levels is really in the purview of the Government of the day.

And the point I am making is that unless government services are productive they are a liability, no matter how you disguise the fund-raising. You are trying to say that it would be better if the government could claim that its revenues came from investment returns, than if it merely claimed them through taxation. What you are failing to acknowledge:

  • The seed money invested in "SMF" accounts could only be raised through conventional means, like taxation, in the first place
  • Invested money would continue to purchase unproductive goods and services in the market, effecting an unproductive drain on supplies

For instance, an "SMF" account used to fund unproductive government education services would remove teachers and administrators from the workforce. Rather than putting them to work in the most productive available fashion, it would put them to work in government schools producing substandard efforts. The cost of labor in the teaching profession would rise as a result of this unproductive-but-immortal institution.

All the while it would be consuming money that might otherwise have been spent on productive educational plans. Every transaction is an investment; every dollar taxed for government uses -- whether "investment accounts" or otherwise -- is less useful to the market than it might otherwise have been. I assume you understand the concept of the Time Value of money; consider the effect of any government taxation fifty years from now and you will begin to understand why the Founders were so wary of taxation powers.

That's the problem with your thesis that markets only support productive goods. They tend only to support goods that are productive today, at the most, later today.

No, again, you're quite mistaken. Markets are not anthropomorphic entities; they are endowed with the strategic powers of any and all of the individuals of whom they are composed. This man may be a brilliant strategist, and as a result his investments will presumably yield high returns. That man may be a poor strategist; he simply lacks that natural asset but he may freely purchase the strategic reasoning of a fund manager in order to make strategic decisions for him. In the article I linked, Wanniski points out quite reasonably:

We don't expect the 125 million people who are in the work force to "know a bad investment when they see one." That's why we have a market economy, in which tiny amounts of money are deposited in banks, S&Ls and credit unions or pension funds or mutual funds. People who are supposed to know good from bad investments work for these institutions. They gather the mites into bundles and package them for other people who show up in search of capital. The mechanics of the marketplace requires that the experts -- the broad class of financial intermediaries -- be able to assess the likelihood of the potential return on investment to these bundles of cash.

They do not like speculative R&D, no matter how much you quote NASA's 7-for-1 return on invested R&D dollars. No matter how much you discuss Maxwell's Equations, supported by a public University.

Don't like speculative R&D? That's rich, coming from someone who just blasted the "dotcom bubble".

But look again. Bell, MS, IBM, Compaq, and Sun: these are all companies which have enjoyed monopolistic or oligopolistic positions within their markets. In fact, they hate the free market because it cuts into their profits. Companies with high R&D budgets are companies which are not facing stiff competition. They are not participating in your perfectly competitive market at all. They taking super-normal profits out of the market.

Companies with high R&D budgets are, indeed, companies which face stiff competition. All of the companies named above -- your disclaimer notwithstanding -- face severe competition and extremely high velocity in technology development. In fact, this is so obviously true that I'm taken aback by your defense.

Firms in the perfectly competitive model do not have spare money to spend, period.

I have never heard this before, and I hope I never hear it again. This is just absurd, and it is clear by this point that the conversation is practically irredeemable.

When you take away monopoly profits, the market cannot quickly develop new technologies by itself.

On the contrary, when technological development is critical to sales it is fundamental to the budgets (and price lists) of members of the industry. I don't know who gave you the notion that "perfectly competitive" companies operate on zero-research budgets, but history makes him a fool. In fact, one of the most important reasons for a public stock offering is to raise capital for technology development, in the hopes that the investment will yield returns on improved products.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
Last Words ... (none / 0) (#60)
by Jacques Chester on Thu Feb 08, 2001 at 05:34:05 PM EST

I don't have much time ... I started drafting a reply to this on my other computer but it went down. I'll run through the short version here.

Your education in economics seems heavily skewed towards neoclassical macroeconomics, and your views on the market peppered by libertarian sentiments on free action. My own education has been perhaps deeper and more ecclectic: as well as studying some University-level microeconomics, I've also looked into smidgens of game theory (excellent for analysing competitive and cooperative behaviours), competitive strategy and marketing. Taken together these things can give one a more realistic view of individuals, firms and the markets which they form.

While I appreciate your substantive volume and depth of debate thus far, I stand by the position that your faith in the free market mechanism is misplaced. I also posit that, when you write things like "I don't give a rat's ass about "Perfectly Competitive Markets", whatever that means.", you are showing that you haven't read even the most elementary basics of microeconomic theory - particularly the perfectly competitive and monopoly models of market behaviour.

If you wish to learn more about the way in which actual - as opposed to theoretical - markets work, I recommend that you read up on:

  1. Elementary Microeconomics, particular focus on monopolies. Try to spot why companies hate real competition.
  2. The "Efficient Market" hypothesis and its critics
  3. Galbraith's theory of Market Power
  4. Game Theory, as it applies to inter-firm competition, cooperation and trades on the market
  5. Corporate Strategy - compare with microeconomic model of business behaviour
  6. Basic Marketing - also compare with "perfectly competitive market" model

I'm posting one more post on this topic, a critique of my article by a person who is - IMO - far my qualified than both you and I to spot the flaws. Alas he's managed to demolish most of it, but at least he did not need - as you did - to resort to yet another doctrine ;)

Thanks.

--
Well now. We seem to be temporarily out of sigs here at the sig factory. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.
[ Parent ]

good grief... (none / 0) (#64)
by ubu on Fri Feb 09, 2001 at 02:02:24 AM EST

I also posit that, when you write things like "I don't give a rat's ass about "Perfectly Competitive Markets", whatever that means.", you are showing that you haven't read even the most elementary basics of microeconomic theory - particularly the perfectly competitive and monopoly models of market behaviour.

First, industries and national economies are not "microeconomic". For such a well-read and deeply-insightful scholar as yourself this is a surprising mistake. Perhaps your finger slipped all the way across the keyboard from the 'a' key.

If you wish to learn more about the way in which actual - as opposed to theoretical - markets work, I recommend that you read up on:

I can't find anything in your list which pertains to "actual -- as opposed to theoretical -- markets".

  • Elementary Microeconomics - has nothing to do with monopolies, except the theoretical response of, perhaps, and individual firm or household to a theoretical monopoly situation.
  • The "Efficient Market" hypothesis - what's your point? I rather agree with it in its entirety, and so does Wanniski. Jude's advice to Greenspan. The problem is that Efficient Market Theory has nothing to do with what you have been claiming under its aegis.
  • Galbraith's theory of Market Power - theory, of course, a Keynesian/demand-side theory with no credible evidence whatsoever. Notwithstanding it has been the cornerstone of Congressional thinking with regard to antitrust legislation -- legislation which has patently failed to accomplish any of its stated goals, and which has caused tremendous harm in the marketplace.
  • Game Theory - I sense that this is really where you got your notions of economic behavior, and I'm very sorry for that.
  • Corporate Strategy - again you are attempting to pass off microeconomics as macroeconomics to explain market-wide behavior. As a game theorist you almost certainly are aware that the dynamics of collective participation are impossible to predict based on the behavior of a single participant... or even an entire single category of participants.
  • Basic Marketing - This is getting ridiculous...

It's clear you think you know quite a bit about economics, and I hate to be the one to disabuse you of your notions, but I see no other option. You are very underinformed.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
I know I shouldn't feed trolls. (none / 0) (#69)
by Jacques Chester on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 12:25:25 AM EST

First, industries and national economies are not "microeconomic".

National economies, no. Industries, yes. "Microeconomics" isn't measured in dollars or sales or GDP. It's the study of the economics which looks at individuals, firms, and the markets and industries they make up. Macroeconomics begins to examine how an economy with more than one market would work, with of course particular focus on the role of a Government.

I can't find anything in your list which pertains to "actual -- as opposed to theoretical -- markets"

If at first you don't succeed, try and try again. What I have pointed you to is an ecclectic mix of sources and topics which essentially alloy the perfectly competitive market model into something a little more realistic.

Elementary Microeconomics - has nothing to do with monopolies, except the theoretical response of, perhaps, and individual firm or household to a theoretical monopoly situation.

Monopolies, being a theoretical opposite to the perfectly competitive market, are a fundamental topic in the microeconomics in which you are so painfully unversed. Economists do not consider the perfectly competitive and monopoly models as describing actual events, because they only describe hypothetical markets in the most idealised of conditions. These models are ways of thinking about markets. Any given market will exhibit some qualities reminiscent of PCMs, others of monopolies and others of oligopolies. Taken in proper proportion you can get a good grasp of the fundamental nature of a given market by looking at market share, profit margins and so forth. This is where elementary microeconomics - which clearly, you still don't understand - is important.

The "Efficient Market" hypothesis - what's your point? I rather agree with it in its entirety, and so does Wanniski. Jude's advice to Greenspan. The problem is that Efficient Market Theory has nothing to do with what you have been claiming under its aegis.

While I'm pleased that you are familiar with the EM hypothesis, I also asked you to read its critics (of which there are many). I mention EMT because it is the spiritual and intellectual inheritor of a key aspect of the perfectly competitive model of market behaviour.

Galbraith's theory of Market Power - theory, of course, a Keynesian/demand-side theory with no credible evidence whatsoever. Notwithstanding it has been the cornerstone of Congressional thinking with regard to antitrust legislation -- legislation which has patently failed to accomplish any of its stated goals, and which has caused tremendous harm in the marketplace.

Yes and no. I am not wholly familiar with US anti-trust laws, but I understand that they are more to do with the expected behaviour of monopolies anticipated in microeconomic theory. I note that the expected behaviour of monopolies is agreed upon by keynsian, neoclassical and radical commentators. Remedies are clearly not.

The idea that big companies can apply pressure that small companies cannot seems to be almost self-evident. The neoclassical-minarchist conception that all players in a market are equal is simply wrong. Larger companies cannot only manipulate their supply, they quite reasonably set out to expand for their product by using advertising. I'll return to that later.

Game Theory - I sense that this is really where you got your notions of economic behavior, and I'm very sorry for that.

I don't see why. Game theory is little more than a formalisation of "what will they do next?". It's a notation for representing choices made by players in a given game and for calculating rewards. It's since been used to provide a more solid foundation for microeconomics, particularly for formalising PC and monopoly models. In fact it has been as crucial an advance for the neoclassicists as for anyone. Saying that game theory is irrelevant to economics is like commenting that calculus is spurious for physics.

Corporate Strategy - again you are attempting to pass off microeconomics as macroeconomics to explain market-wide behavior. As a game theorist you almost certainly are aware that the dynamics of collective participation are impossible to predict based on the behavior of a single participant... or even an entire single category of participants.

I direct you to corporate strategy to let you see how firms view the business of profit-maximising. On this point the economic theory is really quite simplistic. Business theorists have been far more honest about how to increase profits, and it doesn't involve free markets. If anything, the most successful businesses are those that transform their markets into oligopolies or monopolies. Why compete for scraps when you can dictate terms to the consumer? If you've read microeconomic basics than this is very easy to see. Business strategy books - with their discussion of customer loyalty, growing market share, playing power games with suppliers, takeovers and prevention of takeovers - are not enslaved to some shining vision of how the free market should work. Instead they will use any means they are allowed to in the quest for profit. I don't say this as some kind of radical leftie, but as a blunt appraisal of corporate behaviour. Profit maximisation is the spirit and the letter of both corporate law and microeconomics.

Firms, left to their own devices, quickly discover that it is more profitable to defraud than to serve. Not all of them will, indeed many firms will do a booming trade on their good reputation. But others will not. While I have seen and warily agreed with the logic of caveat emptor, I fail to see how such a market is to be considered some magical gift from economic heaven. We gave up free markets because, at the time, they sucked. We've just forgotten the annoying details since and remember the rosy bits about low prices, wide choices and individual liberty. But having your liberties abused - via unfair appropriation of income - is just as bad if carried out by a company, is it not? Companies are power structures too, let's not forget.

Basic Marketing - This is getting ridiculous...

I enjoin you to read marketing books as an allied topic with corporate strategy. Companies advertise to increase demand for their product, right? There's nothing wrong with this from a neoclassical perspective until you examine the nature of advertising. Advertising - if anything! - is the attempt to tell the consumer what they want to hear, not what they need to know. Rational choice - perhaps the most critical cornerstone of all microeconomic theory - is thrown out when you consider this fact. This is why I directed you to read up on marketing. Remember that truth-in-advertising laws are not enacted to reduce liberties, but to stop companies lying to you. Sure, a lot of dodgy guys slip through. But a lot of murderers aren't caught. Do you see me advocating the scrapping of anti-murder laws?

I think that this debate is closed. I do not think that you or I will ever agree about we are arguing, and furthermore that we will continue to accuse each other of ignorance. Nonetheless, it has been enjoyable flexing the brain-muscle. But really, I have better things to do than engage an enthralled market-cultist.

be well;

JC.

--
Well now. We seem to be temporarily out of sigs here at the sig factory. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.
[ Parent ]

reply (none / 0) (#72)
by ubu on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 12:50:45 PM EST

It's a great pleasure to be called a "troll", these days; it generally means that one's opponent has conceded the argument and is resorting to name-calling. Time and interest are likewise dwindling for me; I see profit only in addressing the fundamental disagreement, and one other portion:

But really, I have better things to do than engage an enthralled market-cultist.

First, that is a weak statement coming from someone who continues to engage the discussion; it's decidedly pathetic and insulting to feed your dwindling argument and then claim to be wasting your time... after the fact.

Second, it is ever-so characteristic to bolster underdeveloped opinions and anemic education with the claim that your opponent is a "cultist", or a fan of "doctrine". I think that what you are really saying is that my ideas about the market follow a structured pattern, while yours are free-form and whimsical. You're trying too hard to protect your central notion: that monopolies exist, that they arise spontaneously, and that they endanger the market.

You are correct on exactly two of those points: monopolies do exist, and they endanger the market. However, for all your dancing around the issue, you cannot, and never will, demonstrate that they arise spontaneously. Monopolies have always existed as the children of government action, from utilities to telecommunications providers to defense contractors.

In all my study I have never discovered a credible economist who naively supposed that markets follow a Perfectly Competitive Model. Credible economists understand that market economics are not necessarily interested in competition at all! They are concerned with productivity, i.e. the creation of wealth. Competition often arises to spur on productivity, but there is no hard-and-fast rule of market behavior that demands competition in every case. If anyone has been fixated upon doctrine -- as a Keynesian-cultist -- it is you, for your meaningless adherence to wildly-spun-out theories without a shred of practical demonstration of market dynamics comprehension.

The theory you use to support the notion that monopolies arise spontaneously -- as the illegitimate successors to competitive free-market firms -- is decidedly one-sided: you seem to understand that companies, individually, seek to maintain monopolies. But you don't seem to comprehend the reasons that monopolies, as such, cannot both use "monopoly power" to their own advantage and maintain that selfsame "power" -- without government assistance! This is what we call a "free market": a market without government involvement. What you seem to call a "free market" is "a market with perfect competition". Given your definition, you are right to say that we have no common ground for agreement; you don't seem to understand anything about markets, let alone macroeconomics.

Your comments have been illustrative, I admit; they bear out Wanniski's seasoned claim that Keynesians will find it nearly impossible to de-program their pre-suppositions about the nature of market economies in order to accept the evidence of real-life behavior. This is why they are constantly scrambling to new sub-theories when the old theories fail to explain actual market circumstances. I got a good laugh reading your comments about advertising and perception, in light of the recent recession in America... we have demand-siders coming out of the woodwork to parrot the old line about how "consumer confidence" is low, as though we were talking ourselves in and out of wealth. Let's brainwash each other to bring back the good old days of wealth!

Anyway, it's been fun. My last bit of advice is to note the irony of pot calling kettle black: until you drop your mindless adherence to outmoded and disproven Keynesian doctrines and learn the real fundamentals of economics you are going to make a poor job of it.

Ubu


--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
fairly basic mistake (5.00 / 2) (#19)
by streetlawyer on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 03:09:28 AM EST

Involuntary taxation is, by definition, the coercive seizure of funds for goods and services which the public will not freely buy from the government

Completely wrong. The main use for involuntary taxation is to provide goods which the public would happily pay up for if they could be assured that everyone else would contribute. For example, schools, national defence, protection from infectious disease. These are all examples of goods which exhibit a large "free-rider" problem, to which taxation is the obvious solution.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

Good example of a fairly basic mistake (3.00 / 1) (#23)
by ubu on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 10:14:11 AM EST

Completely wrong. The main use for involuntary taxation is to provide goods which the public would happily pay up for if they could be assured that everyone else would contribute.

No, I'm afraid that's ridiculous. Almost any productive venture can and will be supported with or without prior assurance that "everyone else would contribute". In fact, lack of said assurance is the very reason that investments are risky: a private venture may not meet with success in the marketplace, but if investors feel the margin is reasonable they may be willing to contribute the capital to fund it.

The "early adopter" is a fair example of inequitable distribution of costs. "Early adopters" typically pay much higher margins as well as base prices for goods and services in foundling industries, such as personal computers ten years ago. Their buying behavior at a higher price point than the rest of the market will sustain is of great benefit to those who later buy, at a lower price point, as a result of economies of scale. Nobody is given any sort of assurance that their early purchases will sustain the market (the Apple Newton market was composed entirely of early adopters up until its failure in 1997) but early adopters freely contribute, sometimes merely on the strengths of the product at the early high price, and sometimes additionally as a speculative investmet.

For example, schools, national defence, protection from infectious disease.

The debate rages over whether such large-scale projects can be privately funded; of course, historically speaking, there is little or no reason to believe that they cannot be (and have not been, before) privatized. Still, this is typically the last-ditch response of government advocates when faced with the productivity and efficiency of the free market. In any case, the burden of proof rests with those who believe that these are somehow special exceptions to the rule of voluntary economic behavior. Where there is private interest there will be funding for productive projects; this is inescapable.

These are all examples of goods which exhibit a large "free-rider" problem, to which taxation is the obvious solution.

Obvious only to those who turn to government solutions at the first sign of difficulty. "Free-rider" problems exist in every aspect of a market economy, and yet the market seems to find ways of distributing costs effectively. You have yet to demonstrate that the projects you mentioned have overriding exceptionality.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
I see I am dealing with a zealot (5.00 / 1) (#24)
by streetlawyer on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 10:32:04 AM EST

In any case, the burden of proof rests with those who believe that these are somehow special exceptions to the rule of voluntary economic behavior

No, for heaven's sake, the burden of proof rests with those who are advocating a policy response completely out of line with any current practice. You are also wrong to say that national defence or protection from infectious disease have ever been provided other than through general taxation of some sort or other; education was systematically under-provided when provided for profit.

"Free-rider" problems exist in every aspect of a market economy, and yet the market seems to find ways of distributing costs effectively

No it doesn't. This is a totally unproven assertion, with much evidence against it. In fact, the usual response of "the market" to such free-rider problems as, for example, securities fraud, is to request government intervention.

But I see that you have made up your mind; I will not be responding further, as I am well supplied with libertarian zealot correspondents in other fora.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

Who are you "dealing" with? (3.50 / 2) (#26)
by ubu on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 11:57:22 AM EST

No, for heaven's sake, the burden of proof rests with those who are advocating a policy response completely out of line with any current practice.

Please, spare me. Status quo is no excuse for irresponsible policy. Current policy and practice are totally inconsistent on these issues. You are the one who claimed that the circumstances for the mentioned projects were exceptional; fine, so prove the exception.

You are also wrong to say that national defence or protection from infectious disease have ever been provided other than through general taxation of some sort or other; education was systematically under-provided when provided for profit.

Don't be ridiculous. The American Revolution was effected by private volunteers acting out of self-interest. Many revolutionaries sacrificed entire personal fortunes for the sake of national defense. Italian states prior to re-unification were largely defended by the private armies of merchants and landholders. There are countless historical examples of private efforts at both defensive and offensive military cooperation. Even in the former Soviet Union private armies are filling the gap left by the dissolution of Moscow's war machine. Today hundreds of private armies operate internationally in favor of various private interests.

In the United States any number of lawfully-operated private militaries, or coalition of investors and contributors in the interests of private defense, could capably supplant the US Armed Forces without resorting to taxation -- particularly seeing as how most Armed Forces activity focuses on intervention abroad on behalf of private interests anyway! See David Shearer's paper "Private Armies and Military Intervention".

As for disease control, the Church was the go-to organization throughout most of Western European history. Supported by voluntary donations it ministered to the sick and provided sanctuary to the diseased and outcast. Incidentally, the Church also sought to prevent anti-Semitic violence after the cites of Western Europe sought to blame the Jews for the Bubonic Plague.

No it doesn't. This is a totally unproven assertion, with much evidence against it. In fact, the usual response of "the market" to such free-rider problems as, for example, securities fraud, is to request government intervention.

Again, and again, this anthropomorphic fallacy. It's natural for individual actors in the market to seek the assistance of a higher power when in distress. Nobody here has claimed otherwise. The best example of this is the so-called "Iron Triangle" between industry actors, government regulators, and special-interest consumer lobby groups. The enabling factor in the Triangle is the willingness of the federal government to manage industry on behalf of these special interests.

It is a common mistake to assume that "Big Business" dislikes government regulation. On the contrary, most business leaders highly favor many kinds of regulation. On the whole, it provides them with the ability to protect their markets and inflate prices without reverting to pure market behavior to do so. When companies face stiff competition, the first response is typically to call upon regulators to "fix" the "problem". A perfect example of this was provided a few years ago when a "champion" of free-market economics, McNealy of Sun Microsystems, loudly called for a government breakup of his biggest competitor.

Free-market operation is not contingent on the willingness of its constituents to forsake their competitive urges, obviously. But government advertisement of regulatory services to the highest bidder is the greatest threat to the free market in existence. As Wanniski wonderfully states:

Here is the problem: If successful capitalists can control the apparatus of government in order to prevent a new growth of capitalists, the system will inevitably destruct. If a system can be devised that prevents successful capitalists from controlling the apparatus of government for their narrow interests, though, there is at least a chance of renewal and a chance of success.

Opponents of free-market economics frequently claim that capitalists are wont to remove their competition, unbalancing the market. Yet the cure they propose is the very root of the disease, itself: government intervention.

But I see that you have made up your mind; I will not be responding further, as I am well supplied with libertarian zealot correspondents in other fora.

Good for you. I hope that this has been instructive, in the meantime.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
aaagh! can't stop myself (none / 0) (#27)
by streetlawyer on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 12:16:10 PM EST

As for disease control, the Church was the go-to organization throughout most of Western European history. Supported by voluntary donations it ministered to the sick and provided sanctuary to the diseased and outcast.

Throughout the period you describe, the church was not supported by voluntary donations. It was supported by tithes, and by the proceeds of farming land given to it by political rulers. Furthermore, the prevention of infectious disease has very little to do with "ministering to the sick" and a great deal to do with civil engineering.

Again, and again, this anthropomorphic fallacy. It's natural for individual actors in the market to seek the assistance of a higher power when in distress.

This is not a fallacy; you are ignoring the fact that, if the free market worked as perfectly as you think it does, there would be no "distress". Securities fraudsters are not in "competition" with reputable firms; they are criminals exploiting the market. Getting rid of them is something which requires government intervention; despite the best efforts of the NASD, and before it the European Stock Exchanges, private regulation has been shown not to work without statutory backing.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

reply (none / 0) (#29)
by ubu on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 12:38:55 PM EST

Throughout the period you describe, the church was not supported by voluntary donations. It was supported by tithes, and by the proceeds of farming land given to it by political rulers.

Tithes are, indeed, voluntary donations.

Furthermore, the prevention of infectious disease has very little to do with "ministering to the sick" and a great deal to do with civil engineering.

I didn't find "civil engineering" in the CDC's mission statement. I did, however, find this:<p/>

CDC seeks to accomplish its mission by working with partners throughout the nation and world to monitor health, detect and investigate health problems, conduct research to enhance prevention, develop and advocate sound public health policies, implement prevention strategies, promote healthy behaviors, foster safe and healthful environments, and provide leadership and training.

You would do well to explain the government-exclusive nature of these activities in defense of your statement.

This is not a fallacy; you are ignoring the fact that, if the free market worked as perfectly as you think it does, there would be no "distress".

Lose the strawman, fast. There is nothing "perfect" about a market economy, and nobody except you has claimed such a thing. By "distress" I refer to an unhealthy condition in a specific actor, not in an industry or market as a whole; that context was fairly clear from -- among other things -- the specific use of "individual actors" in my sentence. Were you reading or skimming?

When said individual actors are ailing due to mismanagement, inferior product quality, or poor pricing, such "distress" is quite fortunate, and actually prescribed by free market operation. How else did expect competition to increase productivity?

Securities fraudsters are not in "competition" with reputable firms; they are criminals exploiting the market.

They are a liability to the interested private firms, as well as to their clients. Both producers and consumers have an interest in reducing said fraud. What part of this is confusing you?

Getting rid of them is something which requires government intervention; despite the best efforts of the NASD, and before it the European Stock Exchanges, private regulation has been shown not to work without statutory backing.

"Shown not to work"? *laugh* It didn't work once, twice? Throw in the towel, let's call the feds? You illustrate my previous point rather well.

Inevitably, the toll paid for regulatory intervention is higher than the original liability. Rolling blackouts in California.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
you're wrong (none / 0) (#30)
by streetlawyer on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 12:50:53 PM EST

Tithes are, indeed, voluntary donations

In modern America, perhaps; in medieval Europe, certainly not.

Both producers and consumers have an interest in reducing said fraud. What part of this is confusing you?

The fact that, neither producers nor consumers have been able to credibly refuse to deal with fraudsters over the years. This is just a matter of fact; not something that can be argued about. Under your model, free-rider problems would be solved; they in fact, regularly, are not.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

Please excuse my prior posting's formatting (none / 0) (#32)
by ubu on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 01:17:05 PM EST

The fact that, neither producers nor consumers have been able to credibly refuse to deal with fraudsters over the years. This is just a matter of fact; not something that can be argued about. Under your model, free-rider problems would be solved; they in fact, regularly, are not.

"Solved" to whose satisfaction? The free market has "solved" its problems by virtue of the fact that it continues to operate. From a different point of view, such problems are never "solved"; they are merely optimized.

It's important to note the distinction between government and free market approaches to problems. Government demands fixed solutions, realistic or otherwise. The free market's individual actors "solve" their problems to their own levels of satisfaction, depending on the cost and their exposure to liability. There is no "free market solution" to any problem; the free market isn't anthropomorphic, as I've said several times.

It is simply impossible to reconcile these approaches. Unilateral government "solutions" are never suitable to a free market because they satisfy only one single definition of the solution, never more.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
gah (1.00 / 1) (#45)
by streetlawyer on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 02:20:47 AM EST

The free market has "solved" its problems by virtue of the fact that it continues to operate. Continues to operate within a framework of regulation!

Unilateral government "solutions" are never suitable to a free market because they satisfy only one single definition of the solution, never more.

That is perhaps the silliest libertarian statement I have seen in recent years. For a start, it's not true. For seconds, the only interesting sense of "definition of the solution" is one in which there can only be one solution operating, no matter whose solution it is. And finally, non-involvement by the government is also "one single definition of the solution", and usually not the best one.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

Tithes were *not* voluntary (none / 0) (#46)
by spiralx on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 05:05:06 AM EST

Tithes are, indeed, voluntary donations.

They most certainly were not during the time you're talking about. The term tithe was taken to mean "the tenth part of the increase arising from the profits of land and stock, allotted to the clergy for their support or devoted to religious or charitable uses" and it was mandatory, indeed IIRC the Albigensian crusade against the Cathars in southern France was at least partly over the fact that they weren't paying their tithes to the Chruch, during which the city of Beziers was sacked and 20,000 men, women and children were killed.

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

Who are you "dealing" with? (none / 0) (#31)
by mami on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 01:17:01 PM EST

<i>Don't be ridiculous. The American Revolution was effected by private volunteers acting out of self-interest. </i>

Indeed and look what their self-interest was...

I suggest that someone writes a story about "Libertarians in the U.S". I have no idea how international the readership of K5 is, but it's time that Europeans learn a lot more about it and can put them into context. They so eloquently, intelligently and forcefully hide their true intentions and values. Too dangerous not to be dismantled.

[ Parent ]
Got me (none / 0) (#33)
by ubu on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 01:23:15 PM EST

Yes, expose the nefarious plot to leave people alone. We've discovered a remarkable way to dominate the world by advocating individual empowerment. Someone must alert the Europeans!

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
Got me (none / 0) (#34)
by mami on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 02:12:37 PM EST

<i>Yes, expose the nefarious plot to leave people alone.</i>

I guess I am just too dumb to get it. If all there is to it, is a deserved right of a desire to be left alone, why then this incredible urge to come out in the lime light, fight for your opinions and teach others a lesson ? Individual empowerment fought for with weapons against whom ? Other individuals, taking away their individualism at the same token ?

And basically, tendencies to retreat from society completely (I guess that's what is behind your wish to "be left alone") , tend to end in violent outbreaks of the "misunderstood". Why shouldn't one be concerned ?

But, I have no problem in admitting that your intellectual ramblings are too difficult for me to understand and I am too lazy (and undereducated) to try to match your arguments with other intellectual wizardry. So, I leave you with the academia to discuss and hide the truth. It shouldn't have come as a surprise to me.

Sorry for having offended you. I just felt individually empowered by K5's fine policies of self-regulating moderation and posted what my guts feelings are telling me, in reaction to your contributions.


[ Parent ]
reply (none / 0) (#35)
by ubu on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 03:06:37 PM EST

If all there is to it, is a deserved right of a desire to be left alone, why then this incredible urge to come out in the lime light, fight for your opinions and teach others a lesson?

Some people believe in changing the world through political power or force of arms. Classical liberals believe in changing the world by changing peoples' minds. It's the difference between "coercion" and "persuasion".

Individual empowerment fought for with weapons against whom ? Other individuals, taking away their individualism at the same token?

The classical liberals of the American Revolution fought for their own liberty against the encroachment of others. They fought on their own soil. Today's powermongers send their armies abroad to invade and subdue. There is a difference.

So, I leave you with the academia to discuss and hide the truth. It shouldn't have come as a surprise to me.

This isn't complicated. It's not obfuscated. Actually, the only people trying to hide this from you are in "academia". I am nothing more than an interested layman. I wish more people had the same interest; it would make a lot of difference in how people view the actions of their government.

I don't know anything about economics that hasn't been clearly explained in written sources, most of which are available online for free or by purchase. Some free resources, for example, that have helped me tremendously are Polyconomics.com and The von Mises Institute. Thomas Sowell's and Richard Maybury's books are accessible and thorough places to begin reading about the very tangible problems that stem from government activism.

Sorry for having offended you. I just felt individually empowered by K5's fine policies of self-regulating moderation and posted what my guts feelings are telling me, in reaction to your contributions.

Of course. And I'm not offended, I'm just surprised that so many people find it natural to accept the notion that government is a problem-solver, when in fact all historical and contemporary evidence points to the contrary.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
reply (none / 0) (#36)
by mami on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 05:56:20 PM EST

The classical liberals of the American Revolution fought for their own liberty against the encroachment of others. They fought on their own soil. Today's powermongers send their armies abroad to invade and subdue. There is a difference.

Who encroached Americans on their own soil ? Was it originally your own soil ? Who enchroached upon slaves ?

I understand the Revolution against the British Empire. I understand that originally many of the immigrants fled from totalitarian governments or religious prosecution or genocide. But I also wonder how large in reality the percentage of immigrants were who came clearly for those reasons and how many just came for having bought in the "American dream" of owning their own soil (which supposedly was to be very fertile, which accidentically it not always was) and having fled poverty.

Some people believe in changing the world through political power or force of arms. Classical liberals believe in changing the world by changing peoples' minds. It's the difference between "coercion" and "persuasion".

Passionate persuasion is the first step into enabling yourself or others into coercion, whenever the persuasor has the power to get away with it.

Considering that a lot of Americans take their second amendment as serious as their first one, it IS confusing to me in how far the second amendment isn't enabling the persuasor to become a "coercer" (sorry, I don't know if that word exists) very easily. Taking the law in your own hands, right to bear a weapon and a mixture of struggling ethnic groups to survive in a hostile economy is a breeding ground for racially motivated violence. Usually people would search for a fair "governmental" protection from such potential abuse. It's just darn difficult, if people who would love to be law abiding, have to abide bad laws and the laws are designed in a way, that they are terribly difficult to change legally.

So, I am confused. As a non American I have no such patriotic feelings about your constitution. I happen to think it has some flaws, but I guess I can't even say that without being scared. So much for the free atmosphere of the worlds biggest defendor of free speech. I happen to get confused about who the militia is, what they stand for and why they seem to attract Libertarians. So, I am still interested in learning more the Libertarians. :-)

Following this thread, you have been labeled as one. I guess, that's why I got sucked into this thread.

[ Parent ]

reply (none / 0) (#37)
by ubu on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 07:58:44 PM EST

Who encroached Americans on their own soil ? Was it originally your own soil?

Yes, it was our soil.

Who enchroached upon slaves?

Slave traders, funded by large markets in both hemispheres. You will be hard-pressed to find a classical liberal who approves either of slave-ownership or of the kidnapping that brought African slaves to the United States.

Passionate persuasion is the first step into enabling yourself or others into coercion, whenever the persuasor has the power to get away with it.

Sorry, that's shockingly absurd. You might as well say that using a butter knife is the first step toward stabbing my family at the dinner table. There's no call for that kind of rhetoric.

Taking the law in your own hands, right to bear a weapon and a mixture of struggling ethnic groups to survive in a hostile economy is a breeding ground for racially motivated violence.

Are you from the United States? Your description -- apart from the right to bear arms -- doesn't sound a bit like the United States at all. It does sound a lot like the idiotic fantasy-land Europeans are encouraged to envision when they think of the US.

Usually people would search for a fair "governmental" protection from such potential abuse. It's just darn difficult, if people who would love to be law abiding, have to abide bad laws and the laws are designed in a way, that they are terribly difficult to change legally.

It's puzzling that people would search for a governmental protection, since government affords very little protection. In the United States most police officers are highly in favor of gun-carry laws; unlike the populace, they understand that there are over 1,000 private citizens for every officer, and that responsible citizens who own guns can and will and do save thousands of lives every year. John R. Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime" provides clear evidence of this.

I happen to think it has some flaws, but I guess I can't even say that without being scared. So much for the free atmosphere of the worlds biggest defendor of free speech.

What do you mean? What are scared of?

I happen to get confused about who the militia is, what they stand for and why they seem to attract Libertarians. So, I am still interested in learning more the Libertarians. :-)

The militia? I don't understand the connection. If you want to understand more about classical liberalism I suggest Richard Maybury's books, available at your favorite online bookseller. The most appropriate is probably "Are You Liberal? Conservative? Confused?".

Following this thread, you have been labeled as one. I guess, that's why I got sucked into this thread.

Eh, the typical response to classical liberalism is to use a label, something that sounds dismissive. "Oh, you're a Randite" is one I often get -- although it doesn't apply to me in the least. It's interesting, because anyone who claims that government control over the means of production is important to State and Public ends is effectively a Fascist -- by definition. But we're not allowed to say such things...

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
reply (none / 0) (#39)
by mami on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 09:35:33 PM EST

The militia? I don't understand the connection.

The connection came through something you mentioned a bit earlier. My impression was you were using the militia to prove your point.

In the United States any number of lawfully-operated private militaries, or coalition of investors and contributors in the interests of private defense, could capably supplant the US Armed Forces without resorting to taxation -- particularly seeing as how most Armed Forces activity focuses on intervention abroad on behalf of private interests anyway! See David Shearer's paper "Private Armies and Military Intervention".

Well, I think I got now five or six sources to read, right ? :-)

And then if the Armed Forces focus on intervention abroad on behalf of private interests, then may be because the government is too much dependent on private interest's money and their activities represent those dependencies ? Or is it the opposite ? Aren't major industries just dependent on contracts given to them by the DOD ? Really confused...

--> passionate persuasion is the first step into enabling yourself or others into coercion, whenever the persuasor has the power to get away with it. -> Sorry, that's shockingly absurd. You might as well say that using a butter knife is the first step toward stabbing my family at the dinner table. There's no call for that kind of rhetoric.

May be to you it's absurd, but not to me. I would say you underestimate the power of rethoric in the hands of people with power to enforce their ideas into actions. But eh, I am just a crazy phantasy-land European who dreams up nonsense stuff about the U.S. I have only European experience with political "persuasion" gone mad. Sorry for that. But I do have my eyes open since two decades in the U.S. and I am not colorblind.

It's interesting, because anyone who claims that government control over the means of production is important to State and Public ends is effectively a Fascist -- by definition.

??? So that leaves only the classical Liberals as being no Facists then ???

Well, I guess, I am in the mud now. I kind of never thought I might be a Fascist, but according to your definition I am. :-)

May be we could respectfully disagree with one another about this ?

I think it's time to let this thread die gracefully. Thanks for your feedback.

[ Parent ]

reply (none / 0) (#43)
by ubu on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 01:06:31 AM EST

And then if the Armed Forces focus on intervention abroad on behalf of private interests, then may be because the government is too much dependent on private interest's money and their activities represent those dependencies ? Or is it the opposite ? Aren't major industries just dependent on contracts given to them by the DOD ? Really confused...

Great question. Government spending has a huge effect on the economy. Its effect is much less productive than private contracts would otherwise be -- because of basic economic calculations involving voluntary versus tax-funded spending -- but as long as the money flows from government it is useful to those who can profit from it. Maybury's "The Clipper Ship Strategy" explains the usefulness of government spending to individual speculators using the terms "sinks and cones". A sink is a place where government has drawn capital from the free market, and a cone is where the government is spending that capital. By avoiding sinks and identifying cones it is possible for a smart businessman to make gigantic profits.

But I do have my eyes open since two decades in the U.S. and I am not colorblind.

In my opinion the United States is a marvel of racial integration. I challenge anyone to name a country which has integrated so many various ethnicities so peacefully and so productively. It simply can't be done, and that alone speaks volumes. Most people lose sight of this.

More to the point, there are many special interests in the United States with a vested interest in exaggerating and even exacerbating the existing racial divide. Such special interests claim that racism is rampant in the US, and the press -- looking for a compelling story -- is often quick to parrot the claim. However, a quick jaunt through any part of the United States would be enough, I believe, to put the lie to ridiculous overseas notions that the US is some kind of racial battleground. It is not.

So that leaves only the classical Liberals as being no Facists then?

Not quite. It's not exactly black-and-white; naturally, most people fall somewhere in the middle on the political continuum. But it is easier to create government programs than it is to dismantle them. On balance, government only grows, it never shrinks. And as a result, we slide constantly toward greater government control.

Well, I guess, I am in the mud now. I kind of never thought I might be a Fascist, but according to your definition I am. :-)

If you believe that government should do whatever it takes to achieve its goals -- no matter how those goals are determined, no matter how they are disguised -- then you are a Fascist. The "fasces" was the Roman Empire's symbol of naked Power, a symbol later used by Adolph Hitler to symbolize his regime's belief in the right of the Power of the State to make all decisions, simply because it was capable of doing so. This is where "fascism" comes from in modern parlance.

Any government -- whether it disguises itself as a democracy, a socialistic state, a communistic state, or anything else -- which uses the naked Power of the state to achieve Statist goals is Fascist by nature.

Of course, "Fascism" means a whole lot of things to a lot of different people, these days. Some believe that it is mainly an anti-Semitic philosophy, others believe it means a police state, and still others think it simply means any government which controls the means of production -- although they usually make exceptions for the Socialists and Communists, for some reason that's beyond me.

So "Fascism" is something of an epithet, these days; rightly so, I believe. It's just that nobody will own up to being a Fascist anymore, despite the relative abundance of Fascist thinkers.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
Racism (none / 0) (#47)
by spiralx on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 05:18:01 AM EST

In my opinion the United States is a marvel of racial integration. I challenge anyone to name a country which has integrated so many various ethnicities so peacefully and so productively. It simply can't be done, and that alone speaks volumes. Most people lose sight of this.

Well speaking from personal experiance England is probably no more racist than America is, and judging from reviews of various sources such as the media (admittedly biased and only worth taking with a pinch of salt) and prison populations by race against national populations by race it appears as though we may be somewhat more tolerant than you... not that it's all happy and wonderful here of course.

And you may be able to claim that America has more ethnic minorities than England (not sure) but if current trends hold, Leicester or Leads (can't remember which) will be majority non-white by 2010, and in London whites will become a minority by 2050...

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
[ Parent ]

racism, integration, militias and libertarians (none / 0) (#48)
by mami on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 01:31:14 PM EST

-->In my opinion the United States is a marvel of racial integration. I challenge anyone to name a country which has integrated so many various ethnicities so peacefully and so productively. It simply can't be done, and that alone speaks volumes. Most people lose sight of this.

-> Well speaking from personal experiance England is probably no more racist than America is, and judging from reviews of various sources such as the media (admittedly biased and only worth taking with a pinch of salt) and prison populations by race against national populations by race it appears as though we may be somewhat more tolerant than you... not that it's all happy and wonderful here of course.

I don't know if it's a marvel of integration. But it is certainly unique and I don't loose sight of it at all. It is different from any European country, which "accepts" incoming ethnicities into their states to live within their boundaries and sooner or later allow them to have citizenship (mostly later compared to the U.S.). Just try to find a black "German" who will tell you that any German will consider him honestly a German even if he is lawfully a (passport) German, just not a white one.

That is a bit different in France and I don't know England, but basically other ethnicities than the original white ethnic groups of European countries still feel their ethnicity first and their affiliation to citizenship of a nationstate second. I don't know of any ethnic group out from the former colonies, who migrated to any European country after their home countries achieved independence, that had not a major conflict of identity when being asked to choose their national affiliation.

That is not the case in the U.S. for the Afro-American population. The United States is the only country which has been founded "artificially" by a melange of ethnic or religious groups, of which none was particularly interested in integrating with the other. The country was just large enough in size to push any ethnic or religious group they couldn't stand living together with, into the next piece of empty land to get them out of sight. And I can't overlook that the only and hardest wars the United States was involved in on its own soil, was a war between forces who pursued integration of all ethnic groups and the forces who didn't.

Aren' t the strong "federalist" feelings (versus a feeling of a united nationstate) rooted in the fact that each chunck of outcasted new incoming immigrant population group was fed up and wanted to make sure that they had enough say "against" the government in Washington, which represented the whole nation as one entity ? And wasn't the need for your second amendment rooted just in the traumatic experiences most immigrants had to face settling in this country ? How did or would this country react if the Afro-Americans would insist on their second amendment rights as passionately as the Militia ? Well, I guess it would be an outcry of yelling people accusing each other of racism and not a pleasant affair at all. Don't you think you have still chunks of laws, which need to be amended to avoid getting in fights over integrating each ethnic group equally ?

The amazing thing for me to learn was that the military of the U.S. actually seemed to have been the place were racial integration was most seriously attempted and most successfully achieved. Compare that with what the Militia is attempting to do at times and how the Militia is related to Libertarians, it makes me doubt your previous sales pitches of "classic liberalism". But I admint I have to read tons of books to understand what's going on.

I just discovered this link and haven't read through all of it, but you might have a deeper look in the appendices of the following link "http://www.potomac-inc.org/#court". I think they have a lot of resources interesting to read.

I don't deny that those times are over and changes occurred. And I do admit that I highly respect and admire the U.S. for the struggles they fight for integration, because no other country on earth has been tested and challenged like the U.S. (that's why I am defending you guys nevertheless...:-)) . I just don't think that you can retire on your achievements. It's not done yet. And the way I see it, I can't find the Libertarians to be of much help achieving these goals of ethnic integration.

And the only reason I posted this whole shebang is because I believe that an innocent European youngster might not know the differences between Libertarianism and Liberalism.

[ Parent ]

how about: (none / 0) (#52)
by naasking on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 10:59:05 PM EST

I challenge anyone to name a country which has integrated so many various ethnicities so peacefully and so productively.

Canada. Much less violence and just as much diversity. But we might as well be part of America right? (at least in American eyes...)


[ Parent ]
*ahem* (none / 0) (#51)
by naasking on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 10:52:33 PM EST

Who encroached Americans on their own soil ? Was it originally your own soil?

Yes, it was our soil.


*cough* Native Americans *cough* Sorry, just had something stuck in my throat.


[ Parent ]
Mmmm (none / 0) (#53)
by ubu on Wed Feb 07, 2001 at 04:04:11 PM EST

If that's your inclination, you will be hard-pressed to record which Indian tribe "owned" which piece of land; they had been "stealing" it from each other in bloody conflicts for generations on end. Who "owned" the land upon which Massachusetts Colony was founded?

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
uh huh... (none / 0) (#57)
by naasking on Thu Feb 08, 2001 at 08:54:37 AM EST

Each tribe had a central piece of land for long periods of time. I believe tribes did roam quite a bit, but mostly within their lands. There are numerous maps that have been drawn up that indicate regions of influence of various tribes during certain periods.

But, so I guess it's ok that settlers just came along and took it from them. Not like they had any right to it anyway. Who cares if they were there first? Might makes right! Right?

Is that the view you're expounding?


[ Parent ]
yep (none / 0) (#58)
by ubu on Thu Feb 08, 2001 at 03:22:57 PM EST

But, so I guess it's ok that settlers just came along and took it from them. Not like they had any right to it anyway. Who cares if they were there first? Might makes right! Right?

No, I think you're mixed up. As you say, the tribes roamed. Most of the early settlements were founded on uncontested land, and were welcomed by the Indians. Maybe you're forgetting that the United States comprises 9.6 million square kilometers.

Nobody applauds the deaths of Indians. Nobody applauds the Indian uprising of 1622 that wiped out Wolstenholme Towne. Might does not make right, but unfortunately history is full of conflict without peaceful resolution.

And by the time of the American Revolution, thousands of American colonists with no Indian blood on their hands were facing a threat to their livelihoods, their homes, and their families. They owned the land on which they lived and worked. And even their ancestors had shed less blood in wars against Indians than had most Indian tribes, themselves.

By 1770 the Indian question was moot, in the context of the Revolution. Perhaps you've forgotten that many Indian tribes themselves participated in a long and bloody war against England on the side of the French in Canada. Do not paint the indigenous tribes as innocent spectators and victims of European colonization; it's ever so disingenuous.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
I think you're forgetting something (none / 0) (#62)
by naasking on Thu Feb 08, 2001 at 11:00:27 PM EST

Maybe you're forgetting that the United States comprises 9.6 million square kilometers.

No, I'm well aware of the fact. But people are arrogant and have always been so. They like to claim things for themselves even when they know they have no right to it. If there was so much space in the US, why have most of the Native Americans been run off their lands, hunted down and almost exterminated? Because they got in the way of someone who wanted those lands.

I'm not blaming every settler for shedding Native American blood to satisfy greediness(or whatever the 'justification' was); that would be extremely short-sighted, unfair and untrue. But for a country that founded itself on the principle of freedom of the individual, race and religion(and even tolerance), it doesn't seem like it's original settlers were given much of anything. It's just interesting the ways things turn out.

And by the time of the American Revolution, thousands of American colonists with no Indian blood on their hands were facing a threat to their livelihoods, their homes, and their families.

I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that Canada also got it's independence, but, unlike the US, we attained the same end with little or no bloodshed. Our declaration of independence was peaceful.

So it makes me truly question the validity of your statement of 'a great threat' to the settlers' livelihood, Native American issue aside.

And even their ancestors had shed less blood in wars against Indians than had most Indian tribes, themselves

You keep bringing this point up, but I don't see how it's relevant. Simply because settlers killed fewer Native Americans than Native Americans themselves makes it ok? That's like trying to justify killing a few (former) russians because Stalin killed millions of his people. Compared to Stalin, it's ok you only knocked a few off. Doesn't quite compute to me.

By 1770 the Indian question was moot, in the context of the Revolution.

Moot in what sense? There weren't enough of them left to make a difference, so who cares? I don't consider any issue where people's lives are at stake a moot point(let alone a threat to a whole race).

NOTE: I'm not implying you do think so, I'd just like you to justify your statements.



[ Parent ]
reply (none / 0) (#63)
by ubu on Fri Feb 09, 2001 at 01:40:26 AM EST

If there was so much space in the US, why have most of the Native Americans been run off their lands, hunted down and almost exterminated? Because they got in the way of someone who wanted those lands.

Don't ask me. If Andrew Jackson were alive, you might ask him. Ask anyone who stands for the activist government land ownership policies we enjoy here in this country. I think you're forgetting that I don't speak for the United States government.

It's just interesting the ways things turn out.

It's the least interesting thing I can think of.

I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that Canada also got it's independence, but, unlike the US, we attained the same end with little or no bloodshed. Our declaration of independence was peaceful.

Heh, there's gratitude for ya. And hubris. The Scottish who died in the fight for Scottish sovereignty, they just weren't as smart and sensible as you Canucks. What a laugh. You people have been handed just about every good thing you've ever had. And you have the balls to whine and ridicule and posture. At least nobody takes Canada seriously.

So it makes me truly question the validity of your statement of 'a great threat' to the settlers' livelihood, Native American issue aside.

Fine. There aren't any laws against stupidity.

Simply because settlers killed fewer Native Americans than Native Americans themselves makes it ok?

No. You are the one claiming that English settlers wiped the Indians off the continent.

Moot in what sense?

Are you reading? Did you read even the sentence you quoted?

By 1770 the Indian question was moot, in the context of the Revolution

Try again.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
another try with clarifications (none / 0) (#65)
by naasking on Fri Feb 09, 2001 at 12:53:11 PM EST

I think you're forgetting that I don't speak for the United States government.

I'm sure things would be different if you did. But I posed a question of history. If you can provide some reasonable alternate theory or evidence to what I've said, then I'll listen.

Heh, there's gratitude for ya. And hubris. The Scottish who died in the fight for Scottish sovereignty, they just weren't as smart and sensible as you Canucks.

I never stated that violence is never necessary or unjustified. I'm pointing out the fact that Americans seem to have this mentality that might makes right and the ends justify the means. American history is filled with examples starting with the founding of your country.

Sometimes there is the need for violence to overthrow oppressors, but bloodshed is not always necessary. I don't deny the fact that the American fight for independence made it easier for us to declare independence many years later, I'm arguing that it would have happened anyway.

Canada itself has it's own history of necessary force, but every time it was just that: necessary. The most poignant example that comes to mind is the declaration of the Canadian equivalent of Martial Law in Quebec during a reign of terrorism and kidnapping in the 70's(IIRC).

What a laugh. You people have been handed just about every good thing you've ever had. And you have the balls to whine and ridicule and posture. At least nobody takes Canada seriously.

I guess that's why Canada is considered the best country in the world to live. I guess that's why wherever Canadians go, they're welcomed, known and appreciated for their politeness and respect and why Americans are known and disliked for their arrogance and ignorance. But hey, let's not get insulting.

I don't recall whining and ridicule and hand downs in Canadian history. Perhaps you'd like to justify your inflammatory statements?

Fine. There aren't any laws against stupidity.

You're right. I'm so sorry. It's not my place to question. Questioning is bad and only leads to social chaos. I should just shut my mouth and listen to whomever thinks they are god's gift to man. Are you quite finished with the utterly ridiculous statements now?

No. You are the one claiming that English settlers wiped the Indians off the continent.

I was pointing out a logical inconsistency in what you seemed to be saying. I don't think you'll find anyone who believes that Native Americans ran themselves off their own land.

Are you reading? Did you read even the sentence you quoted? By 1770 the Indian question was moot, in the context of the Revolution.

Lets review here for a moment.
moot:
1.Subject to debate; arguable: a moot question.
2. a.Law. Without legal significance, through having been previously decided or settled. b.Of no practical importance; irrelevant.

So perhaps now you can clarify why the lives of Native Americans was either debatable or of no practical importance. And don't say because of the war with Britain, because then you would essentially be saying that American lives were more important than Native Americans and I don't think we'd want that kind of racism on Kuro5hin.

I'd love to hear your response, but please, if you can't form a coherent and logical argument without resorting to insults and unsupported inflammatory statements then don't waste my time.


[ Parent ]
brief reality check (none / 0) (#66)
by anonymous cowerd on Sat Feb 10, 2001 at 02:35:59 PM EST

I'm just surprised that so many people find it natural to accept the notion that government is a problem-solver, when in fact all historical and contemporary evidence points to the contrary.

My father, who is dead now, was a disabled veteran of the U.S. Army, having fought in Europe during the Second World War. Let me assume that we would both prefer not to be subjects in a nation which had been conquered by Hitler's potent Wehrmacht. Please briefly outline a hypothetical free-market solution that would have succeeded better than the mandatory governmental sequestering of about half the gross national product of the U.S.A., which solution would have prevented our national population from being enslaved by the Hitlerites.

Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net

"This calm way of flying will suit Japan well," said Zeppelin's granddaughter, Elisabeth Veil.
[ Parent ]

Don't know what you're saying (none / 0) (#68)
by ubu on Mon Feb 12, 2001 at 02:35:37 AM EST

I'm sorry, did I miss something? I don't think the Wehrmacht ever invaded the United States...

We chose sides with one against the other of two evils: Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany. We did Stalin a great favor in dealing with his nemesis, when we might otherwise have let the two of them beat each other senseless and sort out the aftermath for themselves. It's impossible to know exactly what might have happened under other circumstances, but one thing is certain: the US Department of Defense has never really lived up to its name...

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
[ Parent ]
Assumptions (4.50 / 2) (#8)
by orin on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 05:42:39 PM EST

Isn't one of the assumptions this piece is challenging that

"The point is that free market is a self-regulating, selflbalancing entity ..."

Economics is not science - and the assumption about the free market is simply that - an assumption, a hypothesis - not a law of the Universe.

I'm not saying I agreed in part or in total with the piece itself - but I was interested in this idea - that there are two competing economic hypothesis that come in and out of fashion. That these hypotheses influence political leaders towards particular actions with regards to the economy. Political leaders decide that one group of economists can accurately and reliably predict the future whilst another group of economists can not.


[ Parent ]
We already have this... (1.00 / 1) (#25)
by coryking on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 10:49:23 AM EST

>I am sure, any government would love that :-) Just
>imagine a government which influences laws, issues some
>laws on its own - and is at the same time a largest
>player on the market. It will dwarf Microsoft's monopoly.
>It will be The Monopoly regardless of what it is doing, a
>biggest private company financed by taxpayers. We don't
>have a problem finding presidential candidates right now;
>just think how appealing that position can be!


We already have this in the US. It's called medicare and medicaid. Our nations screwed up health care system. (but perhaps not as big of a market share as Microsoft, maybe :-)

[ Parent ]
.u8g .x7z .m0v .c4p .b8w .u4v .l7x .f7k .z6b .h7x (none / 0) (#75)
by coryking on Tue Feb 26, 2002 at 01:29:07 AM EST

.u8g .x7z .m0v .c4p .b8w .u4v .l7x .f7k .z6b .h7x .l4t .s0n .x1u .q4j .m8g .x5s .p3x .u1v .t9j .m4s .u0o .n8p .n5q .t7m .w9v .d8q .u9j .f5n .e4p .e4x .n5o .l7j .p2r .n2b .g5c .f5v .u3n .n4w .x0n .p8k .g8u .m2z .p6a .p6n .a0f .t8h .w2n .p3p .g2i .c4i .v6a .x8n .t5g .t2c .f9e .y6b .y1m .m5k .z3h .e1z .h3p .q7l .l7z .l5m .d1i .a4o .g4q .y8b .e9v .c8w .c4v .y0e .r4d .m6g .q0r .v3g .d5y .z7k .h0t .s9a .i0h .d9f .e8o .y0e .b5j .h9a .l2s .m2y .k7r .r7y .c0s .o3u .s6t .p5n .o5e .s9i .y8f .r4o .o4o .g4g .b2g .y6y .n7a .d9o .q0y .s1p .f2a .o7c .a8v .a0e .m3k .f4m .y1j .s8g .k3y .i1u .x6d .y2z .f4u .w7h .m6j .k5x .s0y .b7c .l7v .f3k .e1q .r4e .q7y .i1v .t2a .f0s .h1p .b6a .q5u .j7l .m1p .l1g .n6s .b7s .w0w .x0u .j9q .q8e .c0f .q4c .l0y .p4l .x5a .w8y .k2t .p2b .h5v .j5t .e5z .l1p .k2c .j7x .p8r .v4m .f1p .w8e .f2l .k8a .o9d .p6o .x6c .t8k .h2e .l1w .l2s .b7o .k6i .m2n .c4b .j5s .x6o .i9z .z8w .h8a .u3t .j2t .f5v .u3c .z3n .f6r .l2p .m1x .u8g .x7z .m0v .c4p .b8w .u4v .l7x .f7k .z6b .h7x .l4t .s0n .x1u .q4j .m8g .x5s .p3x .u1v .t9j .m4s .u0o .n8p .n5q .t7m .w9v .d8q .u9j .f5n .e4p .e4x .n5o .l7j .p2r .n2b .g5c .f5v .u3n .n4w .x0n .p8k .g8u .m2z .p6a .p6n .a0f .t8h .w2n .p3p .g2i .c4i .v6a .x8n .t5g .t2c .f9e .y6b .y1m .m5k .z3h .e1z .h3p .q7l .l7z .l5m .d1i .a4o .g4q .y8b .e9v .c8w .c4v .y0e .r4d .m6g .q0r .v3g .d5y .z7k .h0t .s9a .i0h .d9f .e8o .y0e .b5j .h9a .l2s .m2y .k7r .r7y .c0s .o3u .s6t .p5n .o5e .s9i .y8f .r4o .o4o .g4g .b2g .y6y .n7a .d9o .q0y .s1p .f2a .o7c .a8v .a0e .m3k .f4m .y1j .s8g .k3y .i1u .x6d .y2z .f4u .w7h .m6j .k5x .s0y .b7c .l7v .f3k .e1q .r4e .q7y .i1v .t2a .f0s .h1p .b6a .q5u .j7l .m1p .l1g .n6s .b7s .w0w .x0u .j9q .q8e .c0f .q4c .l0y .p4l .x5a .w8y .k2t .p2b .h5v .j5t .e5z .l1p .k2c .j7x .p8r .v4m .f1p .w8e .f2l .k8a .o9d .p6o .x6c .t8k .h2e .l1w .l2s .b7o .k6i .m2n .c4b .j5s .x6o .i9z .z8w .h8a .u3t .j2t .f5v .u3c .z3n .f6r .l2p .m1x .u8g .x7z .m0v .c4p .b8w .u4v .l7x .f7k .z6b .h7x .l4t .s0n .x1u .q4j .m8g .x5s .p3x .u1v .t9j .m4s .u0o .n8p .n5q .t7m .w9v .d8q .u9j .f5n .e4p .e4x .n5o .l7j .p2r .n2b .g5c .f5v .u3n .n4w .x0n .p8k .g8u .m2z .p6a .p6n .a0f .t8h .w2n .p3p .g2i .c4i .v6a .x8n .t5g .t2c .f9e .y6b .y1m .m5k .z3h .e1z .h3p .q7l .l7z .l5m .d1i .a4o .g4q .y8b .e9v .c8w .c4v .y0e .r4d .m6g .q0r .v3g .d5y .z7k .h0t .s9a .i0h .d9f .e8o .y0e .b5j .h9a .l2s .m2y .k7r .r7y .c0s .o3u .s6t .p5n .o5e .s9i .y8f .r4o .o4o .g4g .b2g .y6y .n7a .d9o .q0y .s1p .f2a .o7c .a8v .a0e .m3k .f4m .y1j .s8g .k3y .i1u .x6d .y2z .f4u .w7h .m6j .k5x .s0y .b7c .l7v .f3k .e1q .r4e .q7y .i1v .t2a .f0s .h1p .b6a .q5u .j7l .m1p .l1g .n6s .b7s .w0w .x0u .j9q .q8e .c0f .q4c .l0y .p4l .x5a .w8y .k2t .p2b .h5v .j5t .e5z .l1p .k2c .j7x .p8r .v4m .f1p .w8e .f2l .k8a .o9d .p6o .x6c .t8k .h2e .l1w .l2s .b7o .k6i .m2n .c4b .j5s .x6o .i9z .z8w .h8a .u3t .j2t .f5v .u3c .z3n .f6r .l2p .m1x .u8g .x7z .m0v .c4p .b8w .u4v .l7x .f7k .z6b .h7x .l4t .s0n .x1u .q4j .m8g .x5s .p3x .u1v .t9j .m4s .u0o .n8p .n5q .t7m .w9v .d8q .u9j .f5n .e4p .e4x .n5o .l7j .p2r .n2b .g5c .f5v .u3n .n4w .x0n .p8k .g8u .m2z .p6a .p6n .a0f .t8h .w2n .p3p .g2i .c4i .v6a .x8n .t5g .t2c .f9e .y6b .y1m .m5k .z3h .e1z .h3p .q7l .l7z .l5m .d1i .a4o .g4q .y8b .e9v .c8w .c4v .y0e .r4d .m6g .q0r .v3g .d5y .z7k .h0t .s9a .i0h .d9f .e8o .y0e .b5j .h9a .l2s .m2y .k7r .r7y .c0s .o3u .s6t .p5n .o5e .s9i .y8f .r4o .o4o .g4g .b2g .y6y .n7a .d9o .q0y .s1p .f2a .o7c .a8v .a0e .m3k .f4m .y1j .s8g .k3y .i1u .x6d .y2z .f4u .w7h .m6j .k5x .s0y .b7c .l7v .f3k .e1q .r4e .q7y .i1v .t2a .f0s .h1p .b6a .q5u .j7l .m1p .l1g .n6s .b7s .w0w .x0u .j9q .q8e .c0f .q4c .l0y .p4l .x5a .w8y .k2t .p2b .h5v .j5t .e5z .l1p .k2c .j7x .p8r .v4m .f1p .w8e .f2l .k8a .o9d .p6o .x6c .t8k .h2e .l1w .l2s .b7o .k6i .m2n .c4b .j5s .x6o .i9z .z8w .h8a .u3t .j2t .f5v

[ Parent ]
.u8g .x7z .m0v .c4p .b8w .u4v .l7x .f7k .z6b .h7x (none / 0) (#76)
by coryking on Tue Feb 26, 2002 at 01:29:55 AM EST

.u8g .x7z .m0v .c4p .b8w .u4v .l7x .f7k .z6b .h7x .l4t .s0n .x1u .q4j .m8g .x5s .p3x .u1v .t9j .m4s .u0o .n8p .n5q .t7m .w9v .d8q .u9j .f5n .e4p .e4x .n5o .l7j .p2r .n2b .g5c .f5v .u3n .n4w .x0n .p8k .g8u .m2z .p6a .p6n .a0f .t8h .w2n .p3p .g2i .c4i .v6a .x8n .t5g .t2c .f9e .y6b .y1m .m5k .z3h .e1z .h3p .q7l .l7z .l5m .d1i .a4o .g4q .y8b .e9v .c8w .c4v .y0e .r4d .m6g .q0r .v3g .d5y .z7k .h0t .s9a .i0h .d9f .e8o .y0e .b5j .h9a .l2s .m2y .k7r .r7y .c0s .o3u .s6t .p5n .o5e .s9i .y8f .r4o .o4o .g4g .b2g .y6y .n7a .d9o .q0y .s1p .f2a .o7c .a8v .a0e .m3k .f4m .y1j .s8g .k3y .i1u .x6d .y2z .f4u .w7h .m6j .k5x .s0y .b7c .l7v .f3k .e1q .r4e .q7y .i1v .t2a .f0s .h1p .b6a .q5u .j7l .m1p .l1g .n6s .b7s .w0w .x0u .j9q .q8e .c0f .q4c .l0y .p4l .x5a .w8y .k2t .p2b .h5v .j5t .e5z .l1p .k2c .j7x .p8r .v4m .f1p .w8e .f2l .k8a .o9d .p6o .x6c .t8k .h2e .l1w .l2s .b7o .k6i .m2n .c4b .j5s .x6o .i9z .z8w .h8a .u3t .j2t .f5v .u3c .z3n .f6r .l2p .m1x .u8g .x7z .m0v .c4p .b8w .u4v .l7x .f7k .z6b .h7x .l4t .s0n 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[ Parent ]
.u8g .x7z .m0v .c4p .b8w .u4v .l7x .f7k .z6b .h7x (none / 0) (#77)
by coryking on Tue Feb 26, 2002 at 01:30:46 AM EST

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[ Parent ]
a (none / 0) (#78)
by coryking on Tue Feb 26, 2002 at 01:32:39 AM EST

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[ Parent ]
Third way? (4.00 / 7) (#3)
by anewc2 on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 11:06:14 AM EST

The idea of the SMF is very simple. When the economy is down, you will be running deficit budgets. When it is up, you will run surplus budgets.

I agree that this would be a good idea, but it is also orthodox Keynesianism. How much of a "third way" do you have when your first idea is taken verbatim from the second way?


The world's biggest fool can say the sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out. -- Robert Pirsig
Bootstrapping? (3.85 / 7) (#4)
by anewc2 on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 11:15:51 AM EST

Longview Government is where the Government takes part in bootstrapping new industries. Marx, while wrong on some things, correctly pointed out that new industries are more profitable than old ones.

Japan (through MITI) has tried this without particular success. Honda, for example, was founded, and succeeded, despite the opposition of MITI, which prefers things such as the late, unlamented Fifth Generation artificial intelligence project. (This link also talks more generally about the problems with a MITI-type approach.)

If new industries are more profitable than old ones, then why have we seen such a dot-com crash? The oldest industry, prostitution, has not died out due to lack of profits.


The world's biggest fool can say the sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out. -- Robert Pirsig
Because they aren't real. (3.00 / 1) (#5)
by titus-g on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 01:20:28 PM EST

If instead you were to take the computer industry as an instance of 'new industry', or before that oil, or before that cars, or before that steel.

You can't really look at economics based on specific examples, you can always find ones to break the rules. If you look at trends though...

Prostitution is also a kinda bad comparison, as it is (barring a sudden change in WW values) more akin to the food industry, it will always be in demand, and there is always room for innovation, e.g. the major online porn sites only have to worry about their cash burn rate if they start smoking more cigars and need more notes to light them.

--"Essentially madness is like charity, it begins at home" --
[ Parent ]

In the message I replied to ... (none / 0) (#71)
by anewc2 on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 09:06:41 AM EST

The point was about governments picking new industries to support. In hindsight we can see that (some of) the dot.com's were not real. But would you have trusted the government to make that decision 12 months ago?

Then there's the L-word: lobbyists. A government industrial policy becomes a game of who you know rather than how good is your idea.


The world's biggest fool can say the sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out. -- Robert Pirsig
[ Parent ]
errrm . . . (3.00 / 1) (#21)
by streetlawyer on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 05:18:08 AM EST

Japan (through MITI) has tried this without particular success

Are you trying to tell us that Japan hasn't been a massive economic success story? Whatever the counterfactual might have been, I think we can agree that under MITI management, Japan has had the highest economic growth rate of the major economies since the war.

And that's without getting onto such examples of state-driven growth as South Korea ....

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

But what have they done lately? (none / 0) (#70)
by anewc2 on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 08:53:53 AM EST

Sure they've come a long way since 1945, but they've been in recession for the last decade.

But my point is that their success has come in spite of MITI, not because of it.


The world's biggest fool can say the sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out. -- Robert Pirsig
[ Parent ]

Enough Politics! (1.71 / 14) (#6)
by sl4ck0ff on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 04:13:18 PM EST

It gets really old after awhile. I'm tired of seeing such long boring messages in the queue.
/me has returned to slacking
You should give it a second chance (none / 0) (#42)
by aphrael on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 11:29:45 PM EST

this is one of the few political articles in the last month which was of high quality, well-reasoned and well-thought out, and not a response to a single pushbutton issue.

[ Parent ]
I agree (none / 0) (#55)
by sl4ck0ff on Wed Feb 07, 2001 at 07:06:31 PM EST

You're right, I guess I just have a short attention span ;)
/me has returned to slacking
[ Parent ]
You want government with a long-term view... (4.80 / 5) (#7)
by egnor on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 05:22:37 PM EST

And that's laudable, but I think this is a political problem rather than an economic one. Under almost any democratic system in the world, politicians are forever striving to win the next election, not to make the country a better place in 10 or 20 or 50 years. As such, they will be happy to talk about planning for the long-term but extremely unhappy to sacrifice anything in the short term. Unless you find a way to fix that problem, your words are little more than strident exhortations falling on deaf ears.

Autonomous funding incurs a few problems. Who gets to decide how the capital is invested? (Many people will stand to make or lose vast sums of money on the outcome of that decision, so it's likely to generate a lot of political wrangling.) Is it known what the actual effect on the economy such a trillion-dollar public investment powerhouse would have?

That said, your ideas are interesting, though I'm a little surprised you chose this particular forum.

Abrash? (4.00 / 2) (#9)
by pig bodine on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 06:27:02 PM EST

I think you'll find that Abrash was quoting Knuth.

Too funny! (3.57 / 7) (#10)
by ubu on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 07:24:12 PM EST

There has emerged in the last few decades of debate two basic doctrines for Government involvement in the economy. The first of these comes from the Keynsian camp, which advocates a high-intervention approach....On the other hand is the low-intervention or zero-intervention camp, which bears many labels - "Monetarism" in the US and economics circles;

Hahahaha... *wipes eyes*

If anyone's interested in actually learning something about macroeconomics I strongly suggest Jude Wanniski's Polyconomics.com.

The author of this article must have fallen deeply asleep in 1970 and just recently woken up. His belief that Monetarism rules the political landscape may be forgiven in light of press attention to Alan Greenspan, particularly Bob Woodward's Maestro, which paints such a sycophantic (and ridiculous) glowing picture of Greenspan as to stir reverse peristalsis.

Still, it seems enough K5 readers were interested in the author's remarks that they were posted to the front page. So I suggest that some basic economic lessons are in order. Wanniski's site is extremely accessible; it's aimed toward the intelligent neophyte, especially since Wanniski claims that PhDs indoctrinated in the demand-side tradition will be largely incapable of removing their mental roadblocks in order to understand supply-side concepts.

As for Monetarism, Wanniski's excellent synopsis on the rise and failure of Monetarist policy in the US can be found here.

Ubu
--
As good old software hats say - "You are in very safe hands, if you are using CVS !!!"
Refactoring government (3.70 / 10) (#11)
by Julian Morrison on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 07:38:23 PM EST

Problem: Government is slow, wasteful, larcenous, bureaucratic, and a threat to privacy and freedom.

Analysis: There is a fundamental design mis-metaphor here. That is: treating the idea of "the economy" or "the public good" as if it were (1) a real singular entity, or (2) any of the government's business.

When the people in the government look at the economy as a thing they should be steering, they necessarily look at the reality of which the term economy is merely a model - people's freely taken choices - as merely a cog in their design.

In other words, mis-attributing actuality to a model of mass action must result in the failure to attribute or properly respect the individuality of the model's component people. A government that wants to be "the brains of" a solid mass of people must necessarily want total control over any individual one of those people.

One consequence of this problem is: "Big Government", which believes it ought to have a finger in every pie.

Another consequence is: the government tries to capture and regulate an infinity of free choice into finite centrally planned rules, and as a result bogs down in mindless bureaucracy.

Intended fix: Make government small, efficient,fair, and simple to understand and implement.

Solution: Government should be about defining rules for interaction between people. The guiding principle of the rules should be an extension of the old saying "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose". That is: one should be absolutely free to act any way at all, provided other peoples rights (not spurious "entitlements") aren't broken. The sole purpose of government then, should be to protect rights . This can be done best by providing laws that prevent fraud, theft, and violence, by providing courts, police, and the army to enforce them. And NOTHING ELSE.

I agree (3.75 / 4) (#13)
by duffbeer703 on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 09:28:00 PM EST

I mostly agree with your vision of what government should do.

It seems to be that today the major challenge facing all democratic government is the ever-quickening pace of communication.

The government of the United States was crafted at a time when a Boston-Washington DC trip took about three weeks in good weather. In those days, major battles often occurred after peace was declared due to the slow pace of communication.

Compare that to today, where low-cost telephones, email, FedEx and airliners link the far corners of our country and our planet closer than ever before. Constituent groups like the NAACP, NRA and AARP have instant access to the activites of Congress, which allows for near-instantaneous lobbying.

I would suggest that incredibly cheap, fast communication is the biggest threat that democratic government has ever faced. How can issues be sensibly debated in Congress or considered by Congress when the 'half-life' of an issue is a matter of weeks or even days in the mass media? Activist groups are able to get the attention of the government because they are able to 'spam' officials with the members of their tight-knit demographic group. (blacks, christians, gays, gun owners, 'soccer moms', etc)



[ Parent ]
Two thoughts in regard to this: (4.00 / 1) (#28)
by losthalo on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 12:26:16 PM EST

1.) In a democracy it is the responsibility of the people to monitor govnerment, to see that their needs are being met, and to cry foul when someone gets an unfair upper hand in having its opinions heard by government. Which just says that people need to talk to their Congressmen and other officials more, if they want something better. People need to make a habit of being involved in government. Otherwise, yes, the organized groups shout louder and get their way. The system is already in place for government to respond to the people, the people just need to make use of it. 2.) Politicians -should- be doing a better job of seeing to the protection of the minority side of various issues. Unfortunately, our system in America does not address this, and often special interests are able to steamroller other concerns simply because no one asks who might be hurt by a decision.

[ Parent ]
I think I did not really get to my point (4.00 / 1) (#38)
by duffbeer703 on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 09:08:51 PM EST

My idea is that the ever-increasing pace of communication renders it impossible for the citizens to keep up with the current state of affairs.


Special interest groups like the NRA, NAACP, AARP, etc have salaried staffs whose job it is to 'advocate' for whatever group they represent, to the exclusion of everyone else.

[ Parent ]
Perception v. Reality (4.00 / 2) (#41)
by aphrael on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 11:28:44 PM EST

Isn't there a degree to which fast communication creates the impression of not being able to keep up without the reality?

Government moves *slowly*. Most of the media coverage of what government is doing is really fast, and the trends which turnover in a day or two or even a week or two are evanescent ... the fundamental issues which need to be addressed on the governmental level really haven't changed much in the last decade (well, except in foreign relations, which underwent a massive shift after 1990-91).

But who has the attention span for that? The pace of communication encourages us to focus on short-term changes without seeing the longer-term static picture. It seems like things are changing really fast, when in reality it's just the surface, shimmering in an iridescent pattern like oil on water, while the underlying situation moves glacially by comparison --- but everyone's looking at the shiny surface.

[ Parent ]

Re: Refactoring government (4.00 / 2) (#14)
by Jacques Chester on Sun Feb 04, 2001 at 10:57:30 PM EST

Solution: Government should be about defining rules for interaction between people ... The sole purpose of government then, should be to protect rights . This can be done best by providing laws that prevent fraud, theft, and violence, by providing courts, police, and the army to enforce them. And NOTHING ELSE.

This is what I like to call "microkernel Government". The Government provides absolute fundamental services and then backs off. This outlook is a child of the Federalist Papers and Monetarism. Big Government is bad, cut it down.

If you look at my article again, you will realise that I have not as such advocated Big Government over small or vica versa. In fact, Strategic Government favours a smaller system by "spinning off" lots of the various parasites that currently leech from General Revenue through autonomous funding. In the long term these bodies are not really Government any more. General Revenue is then focused on those fundamental services which you have outlined, and taxes can be cut.

I think the article may have been too long and too vague to digest properly.

--
Well now. We seem to be temporarily out of sigs here at the sig factory. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.
[ Parent ]

Spinning off is not enough (2.00 / 1) (#17)
by Julian Morrison on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 01:03:37 AM EST

If you look at my article again, you will realise that I have not as such advocated Big Government over small or vica versa. In fact, Strategic Government favours a smaller system by "spinning off" lots of the various parasites that currently leech from General Revenue through autonomous funding.
The problem with this is that you think those things should be in the government at all.

Your analogy to OS kernels breaks down when you realize that government by its nature is fundamentally different from private enterprise. When you look at the thing that defines something as a government: the government has the power to exert legal force. That's its purpose, that's how it makes laws, that's how it can take your money at gunpoint and we call it "tax" not "armed robbery".

Quoting George Washington: "Government is not reason, government is not persuasion, government is force. It is a dangerous servant."

What this resolves to then is: government has no place in the market, it has no place acting as if it were a thing of persuaion when its defining characteristic is force. For exactly the same reason as you wouldn't let someone with a Kalashnikov and no conscience play on the team opposite you in a game of football - it will necessarily skew the rules, or just plain rewrite them at gunpoint.

Also you forget: there is no "public money". That was private money which somebody worked to earn, until it was taken away. It's just plain insulting to take someone's hard earned cash and then try to sell it back to them, even if it is better than frittering it on whatever cause celebre currently has the best pressure group.

[ Parent ]
Government (none / 0) (#67)
by physicsgod on Sat Feb 10, 2001 at 11:07:22 PM EST

Government is not a giant monolith bent on depriving you of all your "natural rights". It's a complex entity made up of people, some of whom are intent at increasing their own power at the expense of others. If your suggestions were entacted we wouldn't suddenly divest ourselves of these people, they would just shift to wherever the power was concentrated, and there would be power concentrations. I for one prefer to have those who would try and deprive me in one ineffecient organization where I can keep my eye on them, instead of scattered around the country competing with each other and honing their skills.

--- "Those not wearing body armor are hereby advised to keep their arguments on-topic" Schlock Mercenary
[ Parent ]
Public good (3.00 / 2) (#40)
by aphrael on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 11:25:30 PM EST

well, whose business *is* the public good, if not the governments? Individuals are interested in the *individual* good. Businesses are interested, again, in their individual good. Who keeps an eye out for the *common* good?

[ Parent ]
There is no "public good" (none / 0) (#44)
by Julian Morrison on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 01:27:15 AM EST

well, whose business *is* the public good, if not the governments?
Nobody's business, because there is no such thing.

"The public good" is as fuzzy and meaningless a piece of political waffle as "your patriotic duty" or "for the good of the children". Essentially it translates to: "I know better than you-all do what's good for you, and I intend to enforce it" - or worse: "I have this plan and I want you all to swallow it because it's for your own good, honest".

It's patronizing and irrational because it applies to everyone in general and no-one in particular, and as such it can be dragged out in support of any arbitrary anything, contradictions notwithstanding. Any cries of "but it's no good for me" can be shouted down with "how dare you be so selfish!".

[ Parent ]
Counter-example (none / 0) (#49)
by aphrael on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 02:37:10 PM EST

It is in nobody's self-interest to have a power plant next door to them.

It is clearly in the public's interest to have power plants.

[ Parent ]

funny (none / 0) (#54)
by maskatron on Wed Feb 07, 2001 at 04:17:49 PM EST

...where the public is people not adversely affected by the power plant. ...where the public is people not adversely affected by the tax ...where the public is people not adversely affected by the whatever if you were trying to show an example of the public good, you've done just the opposite.

[ Parent ]
Er? (4.00 / 1) (#56)
by aphrael on Wed Feb 07, 2001 at 10:13:49 PM EST

how so? If there are no power plants, there is no power --- this is something that is becoming manifestly evident in California. It's in everyone's interest to have power; it is in the public interest that there be a power plant somewehere. It is in nobody's particular interest that there be a power plant next door to them.

Your assertion, in this case, would be that it is not in the interest of the people adversely affected by the plant to have it there. That's sort of true; it is *still* in their interest to have a plant *somewhere*.

[ Parent ]

Social Programs (none / 0) (#74)
by Khedak on Thu Feb 15, 2001 at 08:19:21 PM EST

Solution: Government should be about defining rules for interaction between people. The guiding principle of the rules should be an extension of the old saying "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose". That is: one should be absolutely free to act any way at all, provided other peoples rights (not spurious "entitlements") aren't broken. The sole purpose of government then, should be to protect rights . This can be done best by providing laws that prevent fraud, theft, and violence, by providing courts, police, and the army to enforce them. And NOTHING ELSE.

And, uh, what about social programs? I don't feel like living in a society where we encourage starvation, bigotry and poverty. I want all measures that can be reasonably taken to effectively prevent these to be taken. There are many people like me. You didn't say anything about these matters, so take that as you will, it's intended as a statement of my position. I'm not confident in the altruism of my peers, and in fact I'm worried that the only way to stop people from being exploited (and yes, the exploitation of stupidity counts as exploitation) into such conditions is through such means as social programs.

Also, your definitions "theft, fraud, and violence" while apt, are themselves an "infinity of free choice" in their variety. Although it's true that if the government ignored those things that don't fall into these three categories, it would be a somewhat simpler system, I think it's fair to point out that it would not be so simple as you put it. Detailed defintions for all terms are needed, and the devil is in the details, as it's said.

Lastly, note that currency and other ubiquitous government standards, economic and otherwise, would be difficult to replace. A strong argument should be made that this can even be accomplished before the act can be considered seriously. Just as the economy is not a single entity that can be controlled, neither is the government, and 'Big Governments' can't just be 'cut out' of the body of society. It's like a brain tumor that the doctor can't remove without killing the patient. Hmm, that metaphor makes it look pretty bleak.

[ Parent ]
self-correcting systems applied to social funding (4.66 / 3) (#16)
by mathematician on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 12:27:21 AM EST

Couldn't many governments benefit from a simplified and automated social funding system like the following:
  • Services are voted 'public' by democratic processes (every term, those services are voted on again)
  • A fixed percentage of a citizens's income is reserved for paying public services and deducted on a timely basis (monthly, quarterly)
  • Citizens use public services on a pay-per-use basis.
  • The remainder of the citizen's public income is distributed to the services he/she choses.
  • Cash distribution for all publicly funded corporations is documented and all information is public. [ Fraud must be highly punished :( ]
-------------

Naive utopian dreams? What are you talking about? ;)

Seriously, though. Each citizen now has the power to manage his own little part of the social economy. Because of the freedom of information, citizens can chose to be aware of economic problems and 'pitch in' to where money is needed (they will need to spend that money on public services anyways). Those services needing immediate funding can be funded by those who need them.

Unused services can be removed from public funding, when their term is up, by popular vote. Politicians could become 'consulting firms' that battle for public money by being good (or by convincing large amounts of citizens they are good). Since citizens are forced to be up to date with social issues (most are anyways...), the system regulated itself with quicker response times and much greater flexibility.

Fight bigotry and stupidity with education.

Self-correcting vs stability (4.00 / 1) (#20)
by infraoctarine on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 04:17:06 AM EST

> A fixed percentage of a citizens's income is reserved for paying public services and deducted on a timely basis (monthly, quarterly)

Yes, we could call it..... taxes :)

> The remainder of the citizen's public income

What would happen if the "remainder" is negative. For instance, if healthcare is a public service and you need a heart transplant. This would put you $$$ in the negative?

> is distributed to the services he/she choses.

The thought is good, but I don't think it would work in real life. Most people would not have the time/interrest to always keep up with all the issues. The system would be highly unstable, with heaps of money flowing to the "charity project of the day". For example: media writes about the bad quality of public schools, which promptly gets much more money. Unfortunately nobody remembers that this means the mental hospital just lost all their funding, and so on. It's just impossible for them all to get equal and fair media coverage (which is exactly how public funding would be gained and lost in such a system). Quick response times might be a good thing in some situations, but not all. Most of the public services will work better with more stable sources of income.

> Cash distribution for all publicly funded corporations is documented and all information is public.

Yes, it definitely should be!

> citizens can chose to be aware of economic problems

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I believe the majority would chose to stay unaware :(

[ Parent ]
Stability is an illusion (3.00 / 1) (#22)
by mathematician on Mon Feb 05, 2001 at 08:54:00 AM EST

Most people would not have the time/interrest to always keep up with all the issues.

In which case they can have their public funds managed for them by qualified public social consultants (aka politicians) who have agendas most representing the citizen's interests and beliefs.

The system would be highly unstable, with heaps of money flowing to the "charity project of the day". For example: media writes about the bad quality of public schools, which promptly gets much more money.

Stability is an illusion :)

I disagree, I don't think that would happen. Only people who really care about the school will finance it. Most often it will be citizens directly involved with the problem...(parents of school kids)

Unfortunately nobody remembers that this means the mental hospital just lost all their funding, and so on.

If citizens do not want to fund a mental hospital, then it cannot be a public service. Fortunately, there are always people who care for services like that one and it will receive funding

What would happen if the "remainder" is negative.

You have already spent all the money you had to. Maybe it would help to view the system as a 'public credit'. You owe the public x% of your income. You must spend at least that amount on public services. What is left over is yours to keep...

For instance, if healthcare is a public service and you need a heart transplant. This would put you $$$ in the negative?

It is payed by you privately. If you do not have enough money, you can get funding from a public service that specializes in funding extreme care cases.

This system can also be gradually introduced and can co-exist with existing social programs. I live in Canada where there is something of a health care crisis going on (I think we're coming to terms with the impossibility of health care in its current state). If me and my neighbours could give money to the local hospital to hire a new nurse or two, then deduct that from taxes we would have normally had to pay, a lot of citizens would do the same in similar situations with similar public services. See? Self-correction :)

Dan

[ Parent ]

Re: Self-correcting vs stability (none / 0) (#50)
by naasking on Tue Feb 06, 2001 at 09:08:59 PM EST

> A fixed percentage of a citizens's income is reserved for paying public services and deducted on a timely basis (monthly, quarterly)

Yes, we could call it..... taxes :)


Except taxes are not equally divided among all income brackets, ie. it's not a fixed percentage as the poster suggested it should be.

> The remainder of the citizen's public income

What would happen if the "remainder" is negative. For instance, if healthcare is a public service and you need a heart transplant. This would put you $$$ in the negative?


You can't have a negative remainder after subtracting a percentage of your income. It's just not mathematically possible. Perhaps you're still thinking of the messed up tax system. If you make amount A in a year and you divert the fixed amount of 30%, that would leave you with 60%.

Perhaps you were referring to the pay-per use of public service idea which might leave you in debt. I was under the impression that the fixed percentage would go towards paying public services. Health care could very well be a public service(as it is here in Canda).

The thought is good, but I don't think it would work in real life. Most people would not have the time/interrest to always keep up with all the issues.

It's a citizen's responsibility to be aware of the issues and to make educated decisions. If they don't... well look at the situation in the US where freedom is being usurped every day.


[ Parent ]
Re: Self-correcting vs stability (none / 0) (#59)
by infraoctarine on Thu Feb 08, 2001 at 04:15:39 PM EST

Except taxes are not equally divided among all income brackets, ie. it's not a fixed percentage as the poster suggested it should be.

There is no such definition of taxes. They can be fixed percentage income taxes, taxes that vary with income, sales taxes, housing taxes, pollution taxes, etc. Only the imagination of the government limit the ways you can be taxed (and here in Sweden, the government is very imaginative ;).

You can't have a negative remainder after subtracting a percentage of your income.[...]
Perhaps you were referring to the pay-per use of public service idea which might leave you in debt.

Yes I was referring to the pay-per-use idea. I was just wondering how it would work. "Mathematician" clarified this in his answer to my post.

[ Parent ]

clarification (none / 0) (#73)
by naasking on Tue Feb 13, 2001 at 08:40:21 PM EST

There is no such definition of taxes.

I was referring to current taxation systems as I understand them, but you're right.


[ Parent ]
Critique by Peter Lawrence. (none / 0) (#61)
by Jacques Chester on Thu Feb 08, 2001 at 05:40:06 PM EST

Ah. Now, I just promised in another posting that I would post Peter's critique, however it is too large (at 33k) to be submitted. I'm happy to forward it to those of you who are interested, however. Drop a line to jc at dynarchy dot c o m.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to read and comment on the piece.

--
Well now. We seem to be temporarily out of sigs here at the sig factory. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.

Strategic Government. | 78 comments (78 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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