are you people for real? i mean, do you realize the kind of societies that exist in iran, iraq, saudi arabia, etc? i'm not talking about american propaganda on the issue. i mean take as unadulterated a straight up view of these societies that you can, and then compare them to the us.
Why would I compare them to the US? You are talking two (or more) entirely different value sets here.
you say we are not at war with these societies? ok, fine. but what if they view you as the enemy, while you sit there saying "you are my friend"? do you really, really think that religious fundamentalism can exist in peace with open societies in this small world?
Are you really, really sure that their entire populations view you as their prime enemy number one?
why are you all so busy defending these closed societies from big bad america?
I ain't defending shit. If you want to bomb somebody to cinders, go right ahead. But don't come to me and whine when somebody crashes a passenger jet in your living room, ok? War is war. War kills people. That means you and me, and not just "those over there across the ocean that we don't care about because we don't know them" people. I suppose it's real easy sitting there behind your keyboard, ranting, but are you really seeing the whole picture here?
Just because You think that You are RIGHT, does not in any way mean that You can't be WRONG. Same thing goes for the other party. When both of you have fundamentalistic views, then we have a problem, because there will be no compromises, and inevitably it will lead to bloodshed. I just don't think you are ready to face that in the same way that your "enemy" is, because they have little or nothing left to lose compared to you. They are also prepared to sacrifice their own lives to make their voices heard against oppression and unjustly handled affairs that the US have meddled in for far too long.
get real. take america in the worst possible light you can possibly imagine. take middle eastern societies in the best possible light you can imagine. and you defend these backward countries?
I will defend them to a degree, yes. Even though I wouldn't want to live there. That's a different story. I am perfectly fine with my apartment, my computer, my cellphone, and my fast food. Just because I do not like their lifestyle out of personal preference I do not have to be their enemy by default. What answer do you think that you will get if you ask that kind of question to a person living in one of the countries that you consider your enemy? And how can you justify that you are right, and not them? Your way of thinking is a little inhibited, if I may say so.
If you on the other hand consider yourself their enemy, and you bomb them to atoms, and they retaliate and you accept this as a fact of life instead of whining your pitiful propaganda that they are evil fundamentalists that have targeted their mega cannons at the innocent American democracy and capitalism; then you are at least consistent. You can't have it both ways.
you would rather rationalize and discuss with them? or sit here and criticize america's every move, past, present, future. where are your solutions? some of you are very good at criticizing, but offer no solutions to risky, scary situations in the world. think the us actions make it worse? as if it can get ANY worse in the world? as if you help?
What do you think bombing them will help? Do you think that you will get the population of those countries to see it your way then? Then all of a sudden you will be the oppressor, and you will be the dictator that sets their rules, and once you have done that, you are not at all different from them in any way, and then you have made yourself into an image of what you think is right for them, but what do you care about them?
i think you people are just rich spoiled brats biting the hands that feed you. spit on your servants while you embrace your enemies. the mindset of the child, the rebellious teenager.
It would be fun to classify Your mindset, but I think I will pass. Although, I will have to make an analogy based on what you just said. The rich spoiled brats are the American society (or any other western society), the servants are the children that make your Nike shoes and the Chinese toys and clothes, and Saudis and Iraqis that haul up the oil you convert to petrol to fuel your car, and the mindset and rebellious behavior stems from the fact that America is a mere 300 years old. The societies you want to bang heads with are several thousand years old, and they live in remote parts of the world, and you will have to commit some pretty nasty genocide before you have exterminated all your enemies.
what would religious fundamentalists do with you? they would indoctrinate you. NOW we can talk about propanganda, my friends. not the soft kind most of you rant against, we are now talking about hardcore, "you are with us or we kill you" propaganda. wear this chardor or we stone you to death. the women amongst us, they would put under chardors and refuse them education. do you deny this? do you rightly deny this intent of religious fundamentalism? ANY religious fundamentalism, not just the islamic variety? however, this particular variety has a stranglehold on a lot of old, proud societies in the middle east, unlike christian fundamentalism, which is rather relegated to backwaters of the west. the west has active, critical, powerful forces against mindless fundamentalism at work. the middle east has no such forces. it is mired in backwards religious idiocy. why are you all so blind to this fact, and so happy to attack america, a stable democracy!
Did you get to read any form of mandatory texts in school that had references to any kind of religion? I bet you did. That's indoctrination as well. Even now it is the same in the western world. Although it might be phrased differently. "If you don't do this, you will go to hell." But, now we are talking semantics. Just because you do not approve of the Islamic culture and their views on their world, does not mean that it should be exterminated.
Although, if we, for argument's sake, assume that they should be exterminated simply because their view on life and the American culture and foreign affairs differ from yours, then that means that they have an equal right to blast you to little cinders.
when you see islamic militants flying airplanes into towers, do you see brave people fighting oppressive evil americans? or do you see religious fundamentalists with an agenda and an intent all of their own making?
I see the same thing I see when I look at you.
religious fundamentalists would destroy our free press. they would censor our internet. they would destroy our precepts of freedom, and impose on us a rigid interpretation of islam. do you doubt this? do you say they would not, that they are just defending their societies from invasion by the decadent evil west? i would have nothing to say on that point... until september 11th, the bali bombings, the african embassy bombings, etc. islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today. there is nothing wrong with that. islam is an ancient, passionate, beautiful religion. but when the fundamentalists in islam channel those with a grudge and no hope of personal economic advancement due to the closed nature of their societies (NOT the evil corporations of the west!) into martyrs who do evil things in parts of the world far from islam, they are not defending islam anymore, they are imposing their will on others. just like your big old bad america puppet you like to parade around so much. look at it this way: islamic fundamentalism has learned well from evil america: it has gone global, and they have no problem using nukes, chemicals, biological agents, etc... unlike america.
Since when was America converting to an Islamic dictatorship? What does it matter what they do in their own cultures and states? Why should it matter to you as long as they are not doing anything to you? If you meddle in their affairs, you're the one to blame, aren't you? If you walk into a house where a domestic argument takes place, and you get your ass kicked by both parties, is that somehow their fault for just being there? You should have stayed the hell out of their kitchen, that's what.
Of course, America does not use chermical warfare or biological agents, and especially not nukes. What hole did you just crawl out of? Have you been frozen since the early Cretaceous period or something? How's that for naive. You only remember the things you did five minutes ago, like a dog, and if somebody kicks your ass for what you did last week, you're all innocent and didn't do anything, of course not.
it is so easy, and uncritical, and blind, and unthinking to paint the us as the enemy of everything. think a little. stop being a counterculture sheep. you should not define your critical reasoning by a simple opposition to anything forward thinking in action by any nation.
You mean that differs from your view in which you pin everybody that does not think like you as a potential enemy of everything you and your country might or might not stand for?
know your friends. know your enemies. then open your mouth.
If you apply that to the actions of US foreign affairs in the middle east, southern America, and other parts of the world, there's no wonder that people end up hating a country that behaves like America does, and did.
Remove the government, put in a dictator, just so we can get cheaper oil. Works great for you when you drive your Ford pickup to Food Lion, but how well did it work for the poor bastards in said country that had their fairly stable (albeit oppressing) religious regime replaced by a militaristic dictator that drives the country even further down the drain?
if you don't think religious fundamentalist societies are your enemy, and believe america is not your friend, you are just dumbfoundingly out of touch with reality. a simple oppositional, kneejerk criticism is a poor replacement for a conscience.
Actually, they are my enemy on a more philosophical level, since they are unable to think outside their own sheltered belief systems. Albeit, in my book, America is a religiously fundamentalistic society, in all aspects of the word. If you fail to see that, you are perhaps so far into the heap of dung that you can't smell the shit, pardon my language. Although a lot of countries are like that, and that does not in any way make America bad in itself. It was just an observation.
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