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Meditations on Involuntary Celibacy

By HD 64760 in Op-Ed
Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:17:57 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)

I'm posting this very personal account in hopes that it might be helpful to other people who find themselves in similar circumstances. It's sometimes helpful to understand that ``I'm the only one'' is a false statement.


In a nutshell, the problem (if it is a problem) is that I'm in my late 40s, straight, male, a virgin, and I don't know why. I'm a bit shy in normal social situations, and tend toward the silent type, but I've managed to learn to overcome normal shyness in most situations. I can function in society, at least in those situations where there are enough people around to blend in, or where there's some kind of script, real or implied (such as public speaking or teaching). So people who know me find it hard to credit that I'm extremely, painfully even, shy in intimate situations.

I've dated from time to time, throughout my life, though I started late (junior year in college, age 20). It's pretty much true that I fall in love first, then start dating the desired person, and find that I don't really know how or when to express my feelings without scaring the person away. I guess the notion of casual dating is foreign, in part because dating itself is such a stressful experience that I can't imagine doing it for fun. But since it is a necessary part of forming relationships in our society, I took it on as a required course; like engineering students taking lit classes. And, naturally enough, the idea that I was not enjoying myself was communicated nonverbally, and my date thought I didn't enjoy her company. Not so; that was the only part of the experience I did enjoy.

There's also the anxiety. I was nervous about being alone with someone, with the stakes so high. For once in my life there was something I cared about: whether she liked me or approved of me. And I cared desperately about that. So I was the more nervous. And then I got nervous about the nervousness itself; fearing the loss of bodily control that the queasiness threatened to become (and actually did become on several occasions). This returns forcefully from time to time, in some relationships, over the years.

So it seemed (and still seems) that in some way I was different from most people, who find forming relationships possible, or easy, or fun. And all the talking to myself didn't help at all. So the problem, whatever it is, seems to be a pretty hard-core one, a matter of my nature. Perhaps not, but so it seems. Maybe the hope of changing, when it comes, is the cruelest part of the experience, since it goes away again, each time.


An essential problem of this kind leads one to doubt nearly everything else in life, trying to make things all fit together in a tolerable fashion.

For example, I have from time to time doubted that people actually come in two sexes. Never having experienced the female, it seems sometimes to be an elaborate hoax. Intellectually, of course, I know there are women and men, who is who, and what their roles and normative behaviors are. Except these latter are changing through my lifetime, so keeping track of these rather abstract (in the sense of being foreign to my experience) notions is a bit difficult.

All the talk in late years about sexual harassment leads me, in the best Jewish-style tradition of building fences around the law, to radical doubts about whether it's possible to have relationships between men and women at all. Some feminists have claimed that all sex is rape, and sometimes I believe it. They're wrong, of course, but still I believe it on some days.

This kind of meditation, plus the shyness in intimate situations, leads me to a kind of respect bordering on awe of people's personal space. It seems to me that touching someone in more than an incidental way (and I'm including everything not truly accidental here) is a violation of some kind of zone of avoidance. One does not stroll into another person's living room without an invitation. One does not touch another person without invitation, either. But being male, it seems to be expected that such touching as happens should be initiated by me, without invitation.

At some point in each prospective relationship, my physical reticence leads to the question of whether or not I'm gay. The answer is no; but then perhaps I'm not all that straight either. I'm attracted exclusively to women. But I'm also, at close range, afraid of them.

Another thing to doubt is if I'm actually male. Physically, yes; all the proper hormones are present in more or less the usual doses. For example, voice changes, facial and body hair, baldness all developed according to the usual schedules. But I can't help but wonder if my reluctance to approach a person of the desired sex isn't discordant with these plumbing details. My mother remarked during my childhood that when I was expected, they had ordered a red-haired girl, but they got me instead. There's nothing a boy can do to satisfy such an expressed desire on the part of a parent. So maybe I paid more attention to sex differences earlier than most guys, because of the notion that my mother wanted me to be a girl? I had lots of friends who were girls and not that many boys around the neighborhood as a young child; I was friends with the girls at school (and boys too) up until we all reached puberty in junior high school, and was then shocked at the changes, not only in them, but in myself too.

I find myself embarrassed by male sexuality, including my own. And on some days I find it impossible to believe that anyone could be attracted to such things. The fact that some (including some of the most visible) men are such jerks, and that I can feel the call of the same hormones and understand, revolts me.


In this age of internet web pages, one doesn't have to go to all the trouble of writing a book and getting it published to say something about one's experience of life. Lots of people are putting their stories, or parts of them, on the internet. So when yet another love fell apart, I spent a year or two being aggressively alone, hunting around in the literature and on the internet for people who might be articulating non-standard, or at least non-traditional, sexualities that might be similar to what I was feeling. Looking into the closets other folks have come out of, to see if I could find myself lurking in one of them.

And there is a wide variety of stories out there. The notion that there are exactly two sexual boxes people can live in, and that everyone fits in one or the other, seems quite absurd, once one starts listening to the stories people tell.

The transgendered community includes a wide variety of folks who are transgressing the two-box standard. Some are convinced they belong in the sex opposite to that of their birth and genetics (transsexuals); some want surgery to correct this, and others don't. Some masquerade as the opposite sex (mostly men looking like women, but it does go both ways); some gay and some straight, so there's no direct correlation with sexual preference. It seems to me sometimes that the freedom accorded genetic females in our society to dress as they please (subject only to a very few decency standards) is just not available to men. Women can shop openly in men's departments for their clothing and wear it in public; or female-tailored versions of traditional men's clothing; or more traditional women's clothing, or an endless set of variations on these themes. But, Scots excepted, a man appearing in public in a skirt is open to public censure.

Anyway, reading the trans literature, I haven't found yet a story like mine; someone only mildly displeased with one's birth gender; only slightly transgendered; someone transsexual in fantasy only and not desiring such things in the cold light of morning. This is perhaps related to the occasional belief on my part of the feminist rhetoric, and a desire to be sexual without threatening anyone with pregnancy or even penetration.

Another closet I found with a few people coming out of it is that of "Involuntary Celibacy," a term coined by Alana Boltwood to cover situations like mine, in which one can't seem to understand why one is celibate, but is nonetheless fairly hard-core celibate. She has a web page on involuntary celibacy and a mailing list I found to be quite helpful in many respects, though it hasn't actually solved my problem. Some folks on the list are single virgins like me; others are married and for one reason or another not sexually active; still others have been active in the past but aren't now.


I don't know if there is a solution for me. I'm not sure any more I'd even consider it a problem. Others (some others, at least) seem to have found a way out of their dilemmas.

I find that meditating on the injustice of it all, comparing myself to other people's situations, is not helpful at all. Each person's circumstance is different, and so envying someone else's life and accomplishments and relationships is like envying the birds' wings. Perhaps we'll invent airplanes as a result, but we'll never fly like birds, or perch in trees.

So phrasing the problem in a ``what's wrong with me'' manner merely causes depression without giving much insight.

Analogies have been drawn between the involuntary celibate's state and other sad or peculiar people; I'll list a few here.

  • Alcoholics. There may be an element of entrenched habit; procrastinating recovery strategies we know would help; a kind of social shame (for example, of being over 40 and a virgin). The rejection, whether by a prospective partner, or of one's self, may be the same kind of bottoming out experience that the AA folks talk about.

  • Gays. There seems to be something very essential to my nature that leads me to be celibate, in a rather analogous way to the notion that homosexuality is something inborn. And being outside the sexual mainstream leads to similar kinds of disbelief, and (sometimes unintentional) harassment by those inside it. I should emphasize here that involuntary celibacy cuts across categories: we are male and female, gay and straight, single and married, old and young, shy and outgoing. And not few at all.

  • Transgendered folk. Again, there seems to be something different about the way we perceive our sexuality from other folks, at least for some of us. Though for us, it's not so much wanting a different one, as using the one we've been given.

  • Asperger's Syndrome. This variety of autism includes some people with great intellectual accomplishments but very poor social skills. I sometimes wonder if I missed out on the socialization training my peers soaked up almost without trying. Temple Grandin , a very public example of an Asperger's person, is celibate, because she finds the complexity of emotional relationship daunting when one has to deal intellectually with what other people do instinctively.

A few words are in order about religion and celibacy, involuntary and otherwise. I am a Christian of a catholic persuasion. So it seems to me that in all things the hand of God is visible, if one is discerning enough to see it. There is a place for voluntary celibacy within the ministry of the Church. What I read about this, however, is all about sublimating one's sexuality, giving up something to make one a better priest (or nun or monk). My experience is otherwise: my call, if there is one, is to self-acceptance rather than self-denial. Let me stress that involuntary celibacy does not in itself constitute a call to the priesthood or the convent.

I have, in a manner of speaking, persecuted myself mercilessly over my ``difference'' through the years; but it turns out that the self-flagellation is optional.

Perhaps the unifying thread here is one of self-acceptance. If the game you're playing is a no-win one, stop playing, rewrite the rules. Kick through the walls; take your football and go elsewhere. But with sex being used to sell everything from automobiles to food in our society, sometimes one has to be willfully blind to keep one's mind focused on this alternative game.

One other worry: There are many marriages out there that seem to be celibate. (Check out the Married Celibacy Website for more information.) I wonder if there is some correlation between people like me, very shy and retiring in relationships when single, and the less sexual member of a celibate marriage. People who will go with the first person who comes along and forces some interaction; perhaps marries this person thinking there won't be another chance; and then finds that either it was a mistake, or they don't like sex, or they can't stand sharing themselves intimately with a partner.


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Involuntary Celibacy?
o Never heard of it. 26%
o Time this problem came out of the closet. 57%
o I'll tell shy friends about this. 8%
o I have objections or comments I'll post below. 7%

Votes: 83
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o The Problem
o Radical Doubt
o Other People's Closets
o Possible Solutions
o web page on involuntary celibacy
o Asperger's Syndrome
o Temple Grandin
o Married Celibacy Website
o Also by HD 64760

Display: Sort:
Meditations on Involuntary Celibacy | 219 comments (214 topical, 5 editorial, 0 hidden)
by seebs on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 05:18:18 PM EST

Celibacy: The state of not being married.

Chastity: The state of not fucking.

"Married celibacy" is like "chaste fucking".

Not Quite.... (3.88 / 9) (#3)
by nobby on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 05:49:03 PM EST

cel·i·ba·cy Pronunciation Key (sl-b-s)
1. Abstinence from sexual intercourse, especially by reason of religious vows.

2. The condition of being unmarried.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?
[ Parent ]
And also (4.80 / 5) (#4)
by xvathojn on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 05:51:52 PM EST

The definition of chastity cross-references celibacy.

[ Parent ]
I suppose. (none / 0) (#89)
by seebs on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:11:59 AM EST

Sorry, habit. There are circumstances under which they're terms of art, in which case, they are contrasted. I suppose the language does migrate over time. I still prefer chastity for the condition of not having sex.

[ Parent ]
no (none / 0) (#51)
by delmoi on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:40:46 PM EST

Someday, maybe, you'll learn to read a dictionary. Words have more then one meaning.
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
Or maybe you're just a loser (3.23 / 30) (#6)
by revscat on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:00:16 PM EST

I find myself embarrassed by male sexuality, including my own. And on some days I find it impossible to believe that anyone could be attracted to such things. The fact that some (including some of the most visible) men are such jerks, and that I can feel the call of the same hormones and understand, revolts me.

If you are embarrased about your sexuality and yet you are still bitching about not getting laid, I suggest you seek a way out of THAT dillema before worrying about anytyhing else. If you wanna get laid, you're gonna have to let yourself want it. If you don't let yourself want it, you won't get it.

Be a man!

I am a Christian of a catholic persuasion. So it seems to me that in all things the hand of God is visible, if one is discerning enough to see it... My experience is otherwise: my call, if there is one, is to self-acceptance rather than self-denial.

So what's the difference between "self-acceptance" and "giving up"? Seems that instead of dealing with the problem you're putting a feel-good label on it, and even slopping some good ol' fashioned religiosity on top just to give it an extra sugary coating. Whatever. You're still alone. For all you know God wants you to spread your seed far and wide throughout various brothels and massage parlors across the land.

I couldn't help but notice that you fail to mention your appearance. That does not bode well, and I suspect it plays a larger role than you're willing to admit. As someone who used to weigh over 300 lbs I can assure you that I understand self-pity. But I started eating right and working out around 5 days a week, and now I'm doing much better on the poontang front. In fact, I am happily married and have two kids.

- Rev.
Libertarianism is like communism: both look great on paper.
The difference (none / 0) (#147)
by xj.479 on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:03:50 PM EST

So what's the difference between "self-acceptance" and "giving up"?

Self-acceptance would be realizing that you're never going to get any and, in turn, freeing yourself from those desires. Giving up is similar, except that instead of releasing those desires, you continue to harbor them. Self-acceptance is to retirement as giving up is to quitting your job and becoming a parasitic beggar.

[ Parent ]
"not that there's anything wrong with that&qu (none / 0) (#183)
by trane on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 06:35:27 AM EST

... and a parasitic begger, and giving up, are bad? Maybe it's because people humiliate and silence others that there exist those who quit their jobs and become parasitic beggars.

besides what is so great about being a non-parasite anyways, what are you non-parasites producing, more dollars really, you're probably not advancing the cause of human progress very much at all...it might just be more efficient if you all didn't spend so much energy beating down those who are different but harmless, and more time trying to improve any flaws you may have... </end tirade>

[ Parent ]
prostitution (none / 0) (#182)
by trane on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 06:17:05 AM EST

I recommend the original poster visit a legal brothel in Nevada (www.nvbrothels.com). For a price, the whores will pretend to like you -- for an hour or whatever you pay for...

[ Parent ]
We're all awful people (2.00 / 2) (#7)
by jmzero on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:12:41 PM EST

And we don't think we can help unless we get a picture.
"Let's not stir that bag of worms." - my lovely wife
A picture? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:05:35 PM EST

Is that in the literal or figurative sense?

"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

I was thinking of a physical picture (none / 0) (#32)
by jmzero on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:40:03 PM EST

Because I tend to categorize people based on their appearances. And in theorizing about this person's social interactions, a picture probably would be helpful.

Or at least entertaining (yes, I'm awful - but now I'm repeating myself).
"Let's not stir that bag of worms." - my lovely wife
[ Parent ]
Hey! (2.50 / 8) (#8)
by m0rzo on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:17:20 PM EST

Grab a hooker! Round by me they'll give full sex for £20! (I only know this from heresay)

My last sig was just plain offensive.

Legal Notice. (2.33 / 3) (#10)
by m0rzo on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:18:28 PM EST

Heresay - Nothing at all to do with the British pop band of the same name.

My last sig was just plain offensive.
[ Parent ]

Hearsay (3.00 / 2) (#13)
by xvathojn on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:22:28 PM EST

The word is hearsay, the band is Hear’Say.

Er, so I believe, anyway.

[ Parent ]
You're quite right. (3.50 / 2) (#29)
by m0rzo on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:15:24 PM EST

I revoke my legal notice.

My last sig was just plain offensive.
[ Parent ]

A more accurate estimate of cost... (4.50 / 2) (#62)
by SIGFPE on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:29:41 PM EST

...and value can be got from here.
[ Parent ]
No Shame (4.00 / 7) (#9)
by bob6 on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:17:22 PM EST

Be a proud onanist.

Amen! (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by Apuleius on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:59:38 PM EST

(Sung to "Old Time Religion.")
I will take the lead of Onan
Till the bedsprings cease their groanin'
And be proud as Onan's Ronin
And it's good enough for me!

There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. (The South Park chef)
[ Parent ]
What's wrong with buying a whore? (4.18 / 11) (#12)
by la princesa on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:20:13 PM EST

There are enough accomodating and personable women employed as such who would cheerfully offer sex and pleasant companionship for a modest sum that one wonders why you haven't tried that option.

<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
Guilt, maybe? (3.50 / 8) (#23)
by Therac-25 on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:39:09 PM EST

He could have that whole catholic guilt thing getting in the way.

He needs to stop being ashamed of his desires before he can pay someone to satisfy them.

"If there's one thing you can say about mankind / There's nothing kind about man."
[ Parent ]
Well, how much do you charge? (1.71 / 14) (#24)
by eLuddite on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:44:57 PM EST

A friend wants to know.

There are enough accomodating and personable women

Yes, yes... he also wants to know how big your tits are.

Whee, a kurofest for self-indulgent, self-absorbed wankers. Note to author: hang in there, bud. In a few years women wont find you sexual because -- get a load of women's intuition -- you will not be sexual. Problem solved.

God hates human rights.
[ Parent ]

You... (2.09 / 11) (#34)
by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:51:06 PM EST

...like taking it up the ass for your customers, eluddite, don't you? I've heard you're one of the more popular rent boys.

(Waiting to see how the moderation of this post will compare with the moderation of the parent...)

"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

very insightful (3.50 / 6) (#42)
by eLuddite on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:12:57 PM EST

...like taking it up the ass for your customers, eluddite, don't you?

Watch it! I'm married to Linux.

(Waiting to see how the moderation of this post will compare with the moderation of the parent...)


I dont understand why the presumedly intelligent kurorabble has taken offense. If there's nothing wrong with buying a whore, there must be nothing wrong with asking someone if they are a whore. And as long as we're infatuated with the honorable commercial properties of women, my friend is demonstrating nothing less than Adam Smith's moral sentiments and Bill Gates' business acumen when he inquires as to the cosmetic condition of the goods. Different products in different markets, right? If any of you want to diminish the livelihood of women academics by asking hookers how big their brains are speak up, you filthy communists! (Unless you're a pimp, in which case such a strategy of Embrace and Extend makes perfect corporate sense.)

I think we all agree the chain of circumstances resulting in someone's prostitution can be dismissed in favor of making a man of a 40 year old virgin. Someone has to.

God hates human rights.
[ Parent ]

No (3.66 / 3) (#45)
by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:30:49 PM EST

very insightful

Actually I wasn't trying to be insightful, just annoying.

If there's nothing wrong with buying a whore, there must be nothing wrong with asking someone if they are a whore.

Doesn't follow at all. Even if a female user were to say that there's nothing wrong with being a whore, it might still be offensive to ask her if she is a whore. One relates to how she thinks she should feel, the other relates to how she actually does feel...

Oh hang on, I'm not entirely convinced by my own argument here. Still, I wouldn't try that line out in meatspace if I were you.

"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

my friend isnt annoyed (3.75 / 4) (#53)
by eLuddite on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:47:17 PM EST

After all, he's not the one who wrote an exquisite novel about his virginity, he just wants to know how big her tits are, fercryingoutloud.

Even if a female user were to say that there's nothing wrong with being a whore, it might still be offensive to ask her if she is a whore.

If she takes personal offense she must think there's something wrong with being a whore. She might also be a nut who takes personal offense to the color of the shoes on her feet, I suppose, but if the pervasive existence of such discordant, incoherent people were a tenable position to take in argument, communication wouldnt be possible long enough to have an argument.

Still, I wouldn't try that line out in meatspace if I were you.

Tell me, greenrd, how big are your tits?

God hates human rights.
[ Parent ]

Explicit questions (4.33 / 3) (#58)
by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:02:06 PM EST

he just wants to know how big her tits are, fercryingoutloud.

I'm sure most sex-obsessed males harbour a desire to know the measurements of the girls we meet online - but asking such blatant questions is likely to drive them away - and we don't want that, do we? Well maybe you do, but I don't.

Tell me, greenrd, how big are your tits?

Um. I'm a man, so I don't have tits to speak of.

"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

i'll tell you what will drive them away faster (4.25 / 4) (#75)
by eLuddite on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:05:52 PM EST

a 40 year old virgin.

What point are you trying to make? As long as we're recommending hookers we should admit the discussion is about meaningless carnal arrangements which, in turn, automatically justifies attention to body parts. If I ask la princesa her bra size, I'm being faithful to la princesa's internal logic. Besides, how do you know her tits arent for sale? If you're going to be so presumptuous as to jump to a different conclusion after she explicitly told you there's nothing wrong with buying a whore, you should make sure to pack your parachute correctly or die a virgin.

Please dont misunderstand. I'm uninterested in the moral calculus of whoring and the only time I have an interest in virginity is when I'm trying to take it away from someone else. I dont care how HD64760 pops his cherry as long as I'm not involved. This is why I didnt offer any advice. No, I'm just taking my cue from the tone of the comments and decided this is a good place to ask people the size of their tits.

Um. I'm a man, so I don't have tits to speak of.

Oh, you can get prescription drugs to fix that.

God hates human rights.
[ Parent ]

That's rich (4.50 / 2) (#61)
by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:24:06 PM EST

if the pervasive existence of such discordant, incoherent people were a tenable position to take in argument,

That's rich, coming from a person who says that truth is irrelevant.

"Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
[ Parent ]

no, greenrd (5.00 / 3) (#72)
by eLuddite on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:57:54 PM EST

truth is irrelevant in the exercise of rights. I'm assuming you've placed your trust in beergut's sig instead of the extended context of the threads and article it appeared in. You know what happens when less than reputable sources cite context free quotes, dont you? Conspiracy theories.

God hates human rights.
[ Parent ]

Preference... (none / 0) (#193)
by Canar on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 05:53:21 PM EST

...like taking it up the ass for your customers, eluddite, don't you?

Watch it! I'm married to Linux.

Isn't that redundant?

[ Parent ]
I don't whore for a living. (4.50 / 4) (#69)
by la princesa on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:48:55 PM EST

Although other female posters have been known to engage in the practice after a fashion, it just isn't something I currently would consider doing for a living. That said, I don't think it's wrong and think the women doing it deserve more respect and formal training and legalisation to improve the quality of the services they offer. I personally don't like the idea of people who don't appeal to me thinking of sleeping with me (as in stripping or erotic photography) or actually paying me a fee to do so (porn or whoring.) I'd consider sex work as a career if I could ensure that only attractive men were my clientele. However, based on what I know of sex work, not even the more exclusive workers can guarantee that. At any rate, many women are far less finicky than I about such matters and should be free to sell their bodies without being judged ill for it.

<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?
[ Parent ]
violent agreement (2.80 / 5) (#80)
by eLuddite on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:37:15 PM EST

Oh yes, Jin Wicked and Keslin would certainly drive Anne Marie out of market if they worked alternate shifts, agreed. However, the dot com bust has made free sluts like webwench and communista that much more attractive. Thank you for not taking offense to my question. As you can see, HD64760, there is absolutely nothing to fear in asking and, statistically speaking, you are guaranteed to succeed beyond Casanova's wildest dreams.

God hates human rights.
[ Parent ]

Job offer (5.00 / 1) (#122)
by streetlawyer on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:36:44 AM EST

I'd consider sex work as a career if I could ensure that only attractive men were my clientele

I really think you should be posting at Adequacy rather than kuro5hin if this is your aim

Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

Pros and cons (none / 0) (#199)
by epepke on Sun Apr 14, 2002 at 07:35:17 PM EST

I don't have any moral objection to prostitution; I think it should be legal everywhere, as it is in the Netherlands. As for Catholicism, I think that prostitution is culturally one of the things that Cathlolicism doesn't care so much about.

However, there are certain difficulties with prostitution as a first sexual experience. First of all, prostitutes have a tendency to want to maximize their turnover rate, turning it into something like a "grrr, brrr, thank you sir" experince. That is, efficient, cold, and short. This may be fine for recreation, but it may not be terribly good for one's first experience. It may be possible to find higher-priced prostitutes that will offer better service, but this requires an insiders' knowledge that is difficult to acquire. It is also the case that, where it is not legal, it can be risky, or even colder. I saw an interesting thing about prostitution in the Netherlands that I had never thought of--since it is a legitimate activity, a prostitute who has a problem with a client can simply call the police, so the ugliness of the pimp culture is completely obviated. Prostitutes, therefore, don't have to be any less pleasant than psychologists.

Better in an emotional sense might be organized swinging. This has the advantage that the people involved tend to be, if anything, more emotionally healthy than the population at large. It is also mostly legal most places and is quite reasonable, requiring only membership fees and house charges. The disadvantage is that there are regional variations. There are some rather nice party houses in Florida's Orlando/Daytona corridor. However, when I went to LA I was surprised to find that it is difficult to find a house that does not cater exclusively to already committed couples.

However, as I pointed out in a long reply that I can't find (maybe I made it editorial?) one must get rid of one's conflicts of desire before actually doing it. It seems to me likely that the original poster's fear response would still be likely to kick in.

The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett

[ Parent ]
What not to do. (4.35 / 17) (#14)
by Therac-25 on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:24:19 PM EST

Don't marry the first person who says yes. I know a couple who did that. The guy was 40, straight, male, virgin, catholic. The girl was early 20s, virgin, catholic. They got married in a huge catholic wedding (which we attended). Less than a year later, after he's finally had sex for the first time in his life, he finds he likes it, and loosens up. He's approached by an 18 year old. You figure it out. (He cheated, and his wife divorced him. Then his 18 year old girlfriend left him.) Just a word of warning, basically. The "premaritial sex is evil" meme will only harm you in today's society, where divorces are encouraged at the drop of a hat. Not having sex before marriage might have worked 50 years ago, but not no more.

There are lots of options. Hell, it sounds like paying for a visit to a dominatrix or a prostitute would do you some good. Maybe get over that initial hump of realizing that women do, indeed, exist as sexual creatures.

One more thing -- to paraphrase American Pie, it's just sex, not a shuttle launch. If you build up your expectations of what sex is, you are going to be horribly let down the first time you get some. It's not as magical as virgins seem to think it is. Certainly, it *can* be, but it takes practice -- the first time will always be a let down :)

Another thing -- as a previous poster mentioned -- how does your appearance play into this? It's possible that you might worry about your appearance, without it really being an issue to alot of women. Sure, there are insensitive, shallow women who care more about how a guy is built, just like there are insensitive shallow men. But women are generally more forgiving about physical appearance if the emotional/psychological chemsitry is there. I mean, if you're 300lbs or something, yeah, drop some weight, but if you've taken a bit of a rubber tire and magnified it out of proportion, that could be causing issues as well.

"If there's one thing you can say about mankind / There's nothing kind about man."
ah, the wank5est begins in earnest (2.13 / 15) (#70)
by adequate nathan on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:49:30 PM EST

The "premaritial sex is evil" meme will only harm you in today's society, where divorces are encouraged at the drop of a hat.

So, the parent poster:

  • Likes dropping the word "meme," with all its connotations of reductionistic materialistic determinism.
  • Dismisses a historically important and interesting behaviour as a "meme." (Probably a viral meme, too.)
  • Implicitly states that divorces are somewhat bad (otherwise, what would be wrong with 'today's society?')
  • Suggests that Catholicism's position on premarital sex is nothing other than a cult of virginity.

    When will the g**ks admit that their prejudices are no more valid than anybody else's prejudices? How long can the wanking go on?

    "For me -- ugghhh, arrgghh."
    -Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, in Frank magazine, Jan. 20th 2003

    Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
    [ Parent ]

  • Prejudices? (4.00 / 2) (#84)
    by skunk on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 11:14:56 PM EST

    Likes dropping the word "meme," with all its connotations of reductionistic materialistic determinism.

    Umm... might you care to describe how "materialistic" and "deterministic" apply to the concept of memes? This is not at all obvious.

    Dismisses a historically important and interesting behaviour as a "meme." (Probably a viral meme, too.)

    Why is "dismiss" the better word to use there than "categorize"? (I can "dismiss" special relativity as just a "theory," too....)

    Implicitly states that divorces are somewhat bad (otherwise, what would be wrong with 'today's society?')

    Well, yes. That's the mainstream view, and the legal issues usually involved tend to lend credence to it. I agree that divorce need not be viewed as the messy, undesirable affair that most people think it is---but considering that Therac-25 was giving practical advice, and not speculating about alternative modes of social convention, I think he may be forgiven for not covering that angle.

    When will the g**ks admit that their prejudices are no more valid than anybody else's prejudices?

    Well, gee, I don't know, maybe the sex-positive approach seems to yield better results overall than the sex-negative one. A lot of good the latter has done for the writer of the parent article, wouldn't you say?

    [ Parent ]
    We tried the sex-positive approach... (4.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Mr. Piccolo on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:17:52 AM EST

    it was called the Sixties.

    The BBC would like to apologise for the following comment.

    [ Parent ]
    damn it man (5.00 / 6) (#142)
    by adequate nathan on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:12:30 PM EST

    Make me an argument. Don't just reitirate your prejudices. I know about them already.

    As for memetic determinism. The very idea of a meme implies memetic determinism! Memes and free thought can't possible coexist. The way that memes are theorized to work is mechanistic. Meme theory claims that human thought is as predictable (by whom?) as biological reproduction.

    I drew attention to Therac-25's mild condemnation of divorce in order to contrast it with his advice to get a prostitute, and to be sure to try a prosepective wife out in bed before committing. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I wanted to point out that, despite the revolutionary position that prostitution is OK, Therac-25 still seems to value the institution of marriage. It's not as though Therac-25 wrote that 'marriage is bad because you could be bankrupted in a divorce settlement.' The original phrase was '...today's society, where divorces are encouraged at the drop of a hat.' This doesn't sound to me like a total denigration of marriage, but it does sound like a baffling decontextualisation of the institution of marriage. I hope this is clear now.

    "For me -- ugghhh, arrgghh."
    -Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, in Frank magazine, Jan. 20th 2003

    Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
    [ Parent ]

    Prejudices?? (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by skunk on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:25:52 PM EST

    Make me an argument. Don't just reitirate your prejudices. I know about them already.

    Let this not become a lengthy offtopic thread, but I will point you to a couple of relevant K5 discussions, and the home page of an interesting group of Christians (and this page among others).

    The benefits of a sex-positive approach are legion, but I will boil them down to this: Do you really think it is better to have human sexuality be this almost mythical, ultra-taboo subject, in such a way that has caused great strife and shame to millions?

    You might answer that question differently than I. But to date, I have not seen a single convincing reason why most current sex taboos are not fit to be destroyed. And a great many in favor. To say nothing of real-world success stories (Europe et al.) that substantiate almost every one.

    Which, incidentally, makes "prejudice" a poorly-chosen word for my position.

    Memes and free thought can't possible coexist.

    Why is this? At what point in the process of meme propagation is my free thought/will overruled, might I ask?

    The way that memes are theorized to work is mechanistic. Meme theory claims that human thought is as predictable (by whom?) as biological reproduction.

    Evolution is as predictable as biological reproduction. If it's mechanistic, then it isn't mechanistic in a very meaningful way, considering the unpredictability of mate pairings.

    I drew attention to Therac-25's mild condemnation of divorce in order to contrast it with his advice to get a prostitute, and to be sure to try a prosepective wife out in bed before committing. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I wanted to point out that, despite the revolutionary position that prostitution is OK, Therac-25 still seems to value the institution of marriage.

    You're implying that the first position (desire and regard for a stable marriage) is mutually incompatible with the second (advising to hire a prostitute or dominatrix). This is a function of your personal convictions, not any sort of logic that would be clear to someone who doesn't share them. I saw no dissonance.

    Nevertheless, thank you for making the point clear.

    [ Parent ]
    wank, wank, wank (3.50 / 6) (#164)
    by eLuddite on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:39:11 PM EST

    to date, I have not seen a single convincing reason why most current sex taboos are not fit to be destroyed.

    Where are you looking? There are plenty of societies with roles for women and "restrictive" sexual mores, and none of them are lighting up the streets at night with garish neon signs promising sex, advertising nirvana at the end of a selfish, dissolute lifestyle of beery, jiggling mtv chicks, starving their daughters to look like women with staples through their navels, divorcing at more or less the same rate they are marrying, and bearing thinly veiled misogynists, marital abusers, rapists and signal 11s in lieu of sons. In fact it's not sexuality you people are discussing here at all, it's pathological self-indulgence, promiscuity in a word. People parts, none of them whole.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have to keep a previous engagement with Oprah and The Jerry Springer Show.


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    [ Parent ]

  • oops! (3.00 / 7) (#86)
    by adequate nathan on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 11:18:27 PM EST

    To clarify: the parent poster seems to think that, awash in a soup of memes though others might be, his opinions are above such petty influences. How else would he be able to loftily isolate a meme with such precision? He must be a fricking memetic surgeon.

    "For me -- ugghhh, arrgghh."
    -Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, in Frank magazine, Jan. 20th 2003

    Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
    [ Parent ]

    why are people around here so silly (3.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Subtillus on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:56:30 AM EST

    and argumentatively silly. If someone should say "i had looked up", the other guy will say "no you looked down, and i think you're stupid".
    it's wacky! Just Wacky!!!

    [ Parent ]
    So, the parent poster (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by cyclopatra on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:35:14 AM EST

    • Thinks the word "meme" somehow connotes reductionism - the belief that all concepts can be broken down into successively smaller pieces until they can be completely described by physical laws. How he relates the transmission of ideas to this belief I cannot explain.
    • Further believes that the word "meme" carries materialistic connotations. How he has come to believe that a theory that describes the transmission of concepts - which are inherently abstract - is materialistic escapes me.
    • Still further suggests that the theory of memetics is somehow "deterministic" - when what it actually describes is the way ideas change *in random, unpredictable ways*, much like genetic mutations, as they are transmitted from one person to another.
    • Likes dropping words ending in "ism", preferably in conjunction, without any apparent support for his use of those words.

    feeling bitchy today,

    All your .sigs are belong to us.
    remove mypants to email
    [ Parent ]

    so the parent poster (3.50 / 2) (#121)
    by streetlawyer on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:33:36 AM EST

    • Is utterly ignorant of the background of the word "meme" and its invention as part of an explicitly reductionist program, and mistakes her own ignorance for somebody else's problem
    • Repeats her first point as her second point
    • Still further doesn't understand "determinism" in the sense in which it was used
    • In all probability, has a vagina full of centipedes.

    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]
    a link for you! (3.00 / 2) (#141)
    by adequate nathan on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:02:36 PM EST

    ** smooch!! **

    "For me -- ugghhh, arrgghh."
    -Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, in Frank magazine, Jan. 20th 2003

    Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
    [ Parent ]

    thanks a million! (3.00 / 2) (#143)
    by streetlawyer on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:21:04 PM EST

    I'd been looking for that one for ages!

    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]
    "meme" vs. "meme complex" (4.00 / 2) (#162)
    by cyclopatra on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:14:04 PM EST

    The term "meme" is not itself reductionistic, although I may have spoken hastily in saying it's not materialistic. The reductionism in memetics comes in when you describe the self or consciousness as a complex of memes. It is perfectly possible to speak of a particular concept as a meme without making the claim that our minds are made up of meme complexes.

    Further, I would tend to argue that even when this claim is made, it is *not* reductionistic, but rather closer to holism, in that it describes consciousness as an emergent quality that is "more than the sum of its parts" and cannot be pinpointed by any description of the individual pieces or conjunction thereof that make up its composition.

    As for the centipedes, I can thankfully say that you're wrong there.

    All your .sigs are belong to us.
    remove mypants to email
    [ Parent ]

    forget those guys... come talk to me... (1.00 / 1) (#146)
    by deadplant on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:01:43 PM EST

    feeling bitchy today,

    All your .sigs are belong to us.
    remove mypants to email

    Feeling inspired by this comment I would like to suggest that you forget about Nathan and instead invite me to take your pants off... I don't suppose you're anywhere near Ottawa are you?

    (take off your pants to email me)

    [ Parent ]

    If I may be slightly blunt (1.07 / 28) (#15)
    by Pac on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:26:05 PM EST

    What we have here, ladies and gentleman, is a gay man suffering from acute homophobia. The stuff priests are made of, and it even includes the religious fervor. That may be a good option, even if the author denies it on the erroneous grounds that he would not be giving up anything. Believe me, the Holy Church just loves this kind of profile.

    Otherwise, psychoanalysis is highly recommended, 5 sessions a week minimun, before one blows up under excessive internal preassure.

    Evolution doesn't take prisoners

    Bah (4.40 / 10) (#20)
    by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:34:26 PM EST


    You have some amazing insight into human sexuality. In which case I'd like to see some evidence for this diagnosis.


    You're making fun of someone who is celibate but doesn't want to be. Which is out of order.

    Which is it?

    "Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
    [ Parent ]

    eh (4.00 / 3) (#56)
    by marksetzer on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:55:37 PM EST

    probably neither. a male virgin in his mid-40's, i seriously doubt the author has let so many years go by as to never once question his sexuality. so the question as to being gay is a valid one.

    consider: nearly all of the same problems will retroactively surface should he start to try and become intimate with another man, and the lack of mainstream acceptance of gay males will only stifle any confidence he may have with intimacy; in the author's case, it may be waning quite fast.

    i think the problem may be more the author's assertion that intimacy and sex are not mutually exclusive. sex can be a very intimate act, but it need not be, and approaching it from a standpoint that it is the logical result of an intimate relationship is probably a bad idea for someone who has likely built up so many emotional issues about inadequacy along the course of his sexually barren life.

    this is not to insult the author of the story! i imagine 40-year-old virgins are less rare than admitted 20-year-old virgins. but making assumptions about his sexuality is in bad form - discomfort with the opposite sex does not imply anything about sexuality.

    If a smoking ban will actually cause Houston to fold up and disappear, then I'm all for it. -rusty
    [ Parent ]
    Hi, my name is xriso and I'm a virgin. (1.42 / 7) (#16)
    by xriso on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:26:48 PM EST

    Oh wait, I like it that way.
    *** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)
    well (2.00 / 4) (#36)
    by zephc on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:58:43 PM EST

    since you havent had sex before you don't know how goddamn fun it is. Once you get it, you will always want more and more.

    [ Parent ]
    WELL... (4.00 / 1) (#161)
    by LilDebbie on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:11:53 PM EST

    Since you haven't tried heroin before, you don't know how goddamn fun it is. Once you get it, you will always want more and more.

    Hi there, some of us have valid reasons for leading chaste lives. Of course, I wouldn't use the term "involuntary" in these cases.

    My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
    - hugin -

    [ Parent ]
    Appearance (1.06 / 33) (#17)
    by premier on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:26:55 PM EST

    My guess is that you are just ugly, obese, or both.

    Picture (4.00 / 1) (#46)
    by HD 64760 on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:31:10 PM EST

    I've placed one temporarily on hotornot.com; we'll set the voters decide.

    As for obesity, no: I'm about 6'0" tall and weigh 155 lb.

    Reunite Argo! Down with Carina! Down with Vela! Down with Puppis!

    [ Parent ]
    I can see some resemblance to you in myself (4.40 / 10) (#18)
    by typhatix on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:27:03 PM EST

    Although I'm 20 and have a girlfriend.

    I do agree that casual dating is boring, but that perspective has only lead me to be cautious and to try to pick who I will ask out very carefully. If I ask someone out, chances are I'm intending to ask them out a lot because I've already felt them out, talked to them a lot, and know that they probably want me to. You have to be careful to not let it become good friends though... but that usually doesnt happen unless you sit on your ass for too long.

    Basically I also freeze completely in social circumstances. With close friends I can talk normally, but with people I don't know (and especially those I find attractive and want to find me attractive) I completely freeze. There's no easy way around this except to just get the fuck over it and perform a sheer act of willpower. I actually have found girls seem to think that you're shy but are really trying to talk to them and get to know them but are scared to be charming.

    But your mileage obviously varies. And you're 40. Based solely upon your article I'd say your big problem is that women like people who aren't whining about how they can't get women. So shut up, get some self confidence, throw off this whole imaginary whatever-the-hell construct about you being genetically inferior or whatever this whole rant was about and go talk to people you find attractive.

    Also, if they are getting the wrong signals from you tell them what the correct signals are. Communication is a GOOD thing. You can be charming without being some stereotype of smoothness.

    Social freezing, and my story. (4.72 / 11) (#39)
    by sjl on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:02:14 PM EST

    I'm 26. Never really seriously dated. At 21, I was your stereotypical computer geek: really shy around other people, preferring solo activities to group, etc.

    The single best thing I've done in turning that around? I took up dancing. Ballroom dancing. One of my friends, who knew me before I took it up, has commented on several occasions how much more relaxed I am around other people since I started. I still prefer a small group to a large one, but I cope much better in social situations than I did when I started university.

    In the past few months, I've met a girl that I very much would like to date... she declined, not because she wasn't interested, but because she was planning on travelling for a significant period of time, and didn't want to get involved with somebody before then. It's tough; I see all my friends out and about, dating, having fun, and I acknowledge that yes, I want to be out there; I want to have that special somebody sharing my life, and me sharing hers. I know I'm not gay; I've confronted that possibility full in the face since my brother came out of the closet, and I know that I'm not attracted sexually to other men.

    Probably the single biggest thing I can say is: trust your gut instinct. Don't second guess yourself. If you like somebody, ask them out. The worst they can say is "no". Yes, that can be a blow to your self esteem; there have been four or five girls that I've wanted to ask out, and I've either not been able to pluck up the courage, or they've said no. It hurts, hurts like crazy, but the pain fades... and I'm happier about those who have said "no" than those I never managed to ask out. At least I know that she wasn't interested, rather than wondering forevermore.

    Also on the subject of gut instinct: there was somebody, back when I was 22, who seemed very interested. (She would have been 17 or 18 at the time.) We started doing little things, but something tapped me on the shoulder (metaphorically), and said "You don't want to be involved." "Yes, I do! I do!" "No. You don't."

    In the end, I cut things off before they progressed too far. A week later, I found out that she had started dating somebody, and was busy doing the whole nightclub thing. Combine that with the fact that there was a guy in his thirties who was getting signals from her, and in hindsight, I believe that she was after a boyfriend. Any bodyfriend.

    I had no regrets after hearing about that guy and the nightclub thing. I still have no regrets about her. I know something of what I want in a relationship, and that's not it.

    Actually, that's something else -- try to figure out what it is that you want out of a romance. Is it just sex? Companionship? Somebody you can confide your deepest fears and desires to, and who can confide in you? Somebody to be the mother of your children? If you don't know, you'll probably enter into something that you really don't want.

    I don't know if my comments will help you. I don't know if they will help anybody else. I guess what it comes down to is: you have to know who you are, and what you want out of life, before you can really share it with somebody else. I don't know, not completely, but I'm learning... and that's all anybody can say with any degree of honesty. There are courses that can help with that -- I've done one called Turning Point, but there are others out there.

    But above all -- enjoy life. Try to focus on the positives, not the negatives, or the "what if"s. If you're happy, it shows; if you're unhappy, again, it shows... and which type of person would you prefer to be with?

    Good luck.

    [ Parent ]

    Broken link? (none / 0) (#77)
    by QuickFox on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:16:48 PM EST

    Is that link to Turning Point broken? It doesn't work when I click on it. Server not found.

    Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.

    [ Parent ]
    Possibly... (none / 0) (#83)
    by sjl on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 11:05:52 PM EST

    When I was looking up the link, I was having problems with the network where I am, and assumed that that was where the fault lay. Google cache is here.

    If that doesn't work -- Google for "turning point zoeros" (Zoeros is the name of the organisation that ran the course.)

    [ Parent ]

    Strictly Ballroom (4.00 / 3) (#137)
    by pw201 on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 09:26:27 AM EST

    The single best thing I've done in turning that around? I took up dancing. Ballroom dancing. One of my friends, who knew me before I took it up, has commented on several occasions how much more relaxed I am around other people since I started. I still prefer a small group to a large one, but I cope much better in social situations than I did when I started university.

    Worked for me when I was at university. I was a shy boy in the first year, but dancing seemed to help. I am now a moderately well connected person on the club's "Snog Graph" (although I'm a good boy these days as I have a long-term girlfriend). My guess is that dancing improves your confidence because:

    • Ballroom is not like a nightclub, in that you can hear what the other person is saying. It probably also attracts a different kind of person :-)
    • Ballroom lessons take the pressure to talk off. You're there to learn so you don't have to talk if you don't want to.
    • The lessons I went to encouraged people to change partners after each dance, so you meet lots of different people.
    • You get used to having physical contact with a member of the opposite sex.
    That said, at every lesson there's always a bloke the girls avoid because he's "slimy". This tends to mean he's obviously after one thing: he goes through the whole class asking them to dinner, he holds them a little too close or in a funny way and so on. Don't be him. If you're obviously there for one thing, you certainly won't be getting it :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Radical doubt (3.25 / 4) (#19)
    by Nick Ives on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:30:47 PM EST

    That entire section made it worth it, in my opinion, as your doubt that people come in two sexes reminded me of a ex-friend of mine (who, by the way, is completely insane and I truly hope he one day finds the help he so desperately needs) who once asserted that the colour green was just part of a vast conspiricy, that it didnt exist at all (he's red/green colourblind). You can read an excerpt of the rant here, but dont worry, I dont think your as far gone as that.

    Sorry that I dont have anything relavant to say, I lost my virginity when I was 16 and so can't empathise with your situation at all. Follow the link and have a laugh though, at least it might make you feel a little better.


    Actually, (3.33 / 3) (#21)
    by xriso on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:37:19 PM EST

    It's red that's fake. But yeah, that derivative of ln(2x) thing is silly
    *** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)
    [ Parent ]
    i would like to club your friend over the head (3.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Subtillus on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:08:20 AM EST

    with my calculus books. i have friends who deny the existence of science and call it a religion or belief to parry evolution as only a "theory".

    [ Parent ]
    dear me (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by streetlawyer on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:29:33 AM EST

    If calculus was taught in American high schools, you'd have a better use for those books. As it is, it is deucedly difficult to prove that "green" has any objective existence and quite impossible to prove that science has any basis for belief other than faith. All these and many more interesting things were proved by David Hume in the 18th century, something which is also not taught in American high schools.

    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]
    proved? (none / 0) (#126)
    by Delirium on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 05:48:45 AM EST

    David Hume of course claimed a great deal of things. What exactly he proved is a matter of debate. A great deal of what he claimed was subsequently debunked by Kant, though other parts were extended or supported by Kant. And of course there's no reason one has to accept or reject Kant as the gospel truth either.

    I think philosophy is a matter in which watertight proofs are a bit harder than mathematics...

    [ Parent ]

    education (none / 0) (#127)
    by streetlawyer on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 05:52:15 AM EST

    A great deal of what he claimed was subsequently debunked by Kant, though other parts were extended or supported by Kant

    Guess which category the two subjects I mentioned fall into?

    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]

    If? (4.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Happy Monkey on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:05:54 PM EST

    If calculus was taught in American high schools, you'd have a better use for those books.

    It is. Public high schools, even. I guess the quality would vary from school to school, ans smaller schools may not offer it, but it is fairly common.
    Length 17, Width 3
    [ Parent ]
    yeah (none / 0) (#209)
    by ucblockhead on Tue Apr 16, 2002 at 07:16:09 PM EST

    And I learned Hume in Philosophy class as a high school senior in California...but don't confuse him with facts...he likes is feeling of eurosuperiority.
    This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
    [ Parent ]
    Well it is only a theory ... (3.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Kalani on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:49:35 AM EST

    ... just like theories of gravitation. And just like theories of gravitation, it does predict (within mostly acceptable boundaries of error) what actually happens in the real world. If religion predicted those things more accurately, then that would be the theory that we'd adopt. But one important point that "religious" people make which some "scientific" people refuse to accept is that there's a lot of uncertainty in everything, and we may never know completely how everything works (though that's not an argument to throw out our very accurate approximations of course).

    "I [think] that ultimately physics will not require a mathematical statement; in the end the machinery will be revealed and the laws will turn out to be simple, like the checker board."
    --Richard Feynman
    [ Parent ]
    science isn't a faith (none / 0) (#185)
    by Subtillus on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 01:02:19 PM EST

    science is a means of learning the ultimately learning the truth abouyt our universe. calculus isn't_just_a theory, the statement that it's only an aproximation is i suppose, true, but also silly and misleading. calculus's aproximations approach the infinite, the idea you're trying to convey of a "sort of" truth is appalling.
    must religion not only make claims that they understand everything via their instructions from a prophet or secondary deity but they also make faceless predictions and perscriptions based on this.
    i suggest you go to a school that teaches critical thinking rather than bible studies.

    [ Parent ]
    Uh ... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Kalani on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 01:18:39 PM EST

    First of all, your rating method is in very bad taste.

    Second of all, Calculus isn't Science (and I did not ever say that Calculus is just an approximation -- Calculus is not just an approximation). Mathematics isn't Science. If you want to apply Calculus to Scientific Method, then you can say that Science is the process of approaching the limit of absolute understanding. But where we have absolute understanding in math, we haven't got it in Science.

    While you suggest that I go to a school that teaches "critical thinking" rather than "bible studies" (I've never gone to a school that's taught bible studies, by the way -- I'm not even religious!), I suggest that you heed the insight of Albert Einstein when he said, "as far as the laws of physics refer to reality, they are uncertain. As far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

    "I [think] that ultimately physics will not require a mathematical statement; in the end the machinery will be revealed and the laws will turn out to be simple, like the checker board."
    --Richard Feynman
    [ Parent ]
    Also (none / 0) (#189)
    by Kalani on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 01:20:33 PM EST

    You might want to reread my first comment. I'm not saying that Science is "just" an approximation in the way that you think. I'm saying that it's the most accurate approximation available to us.

    "I [think] that ultimately physics will not require a mathematical statement; in the end the machinery will be revealed and the laws will turn out to be simple, like the checker board."
    --Richard Feynman
    [ Parent ]
    i was just teasing (1.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Subtillus on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 07:38:57 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    Do what I did (3.00 / 17) (#22)
    by shoeboy on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:38:57 PM EST

    I lost my virginity at age 11 to my soccer coach. Sure it was painful, humiliating and confusing, but I've never looked back.

    No more trolls!

    on never looking back while losing your virginity (none / 0) (#30)
    by cicero on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:21:35 PM EST

    that just begs for a snide remark, a remark which is noticably absent from from tounge as I'm busy arguing with my boss as to why opening up qwest dialup for everyone would be a bad idea. And losing as I don't know how to argue with stupudity

    I am sorry Cisco, for Microsoft has found a new RPC flaw - tonight your e0 shall be stretched wide like goatse.
    [ Parent ]
    was her name (none / 0) (#66)
    by adequate nathan on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:40:50 PM EST


    "For me -- ugghhh, arrgghh."
    -Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, in Frank magazine, Jan. 20th 2003

    Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
    [ Parent ]

    Flamage factor: Baking! (4.68 / 19) (#26)
    by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 06:51:43 PM EST

    Look at yourselves, people. Is this level of flamage and harshness really necessary? Really?

    On the other hand, I have to add my own pinch of harshness: I agree that the author should have mentioned his appearance. Perhaps the reason he did not can be found at the start, where he says he is "a virgin, and I don't know why" [emphasis added]. Therefore he probably does not perceive himself as very ugly, or else I would have thought he would have mentioned it.

    Personally, I'm a 22 year old virgin, and not too worried about that at this stage - yet. If I were writing a personal article about involuntary celibacy, I might not mention my appearance, because I literally don't know how I appear to other people - although obviously I know that I have a thinnish frame and I'm not muscular, I don't know whether I'm perceived as very ugly, ugly, plain, or even above averagely handsome. (Yeah, I'm setting myself up for some major embarrassment here.) I look in the mirror and I can't judge my entire face - I can't see it as a whole thing and judge it semi-"objectively" like I can with most other people. In any case, I tend to judge myself as a weirdo that few women would want to date, if not actually ugly.

    By the way, I'm not soliciting advice here (not interested in having a relationship right now), although I'm not necessarily going to ignore it, either. I just wanted to point out that people can be confused about how they appear to others.

    "Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes

    Thanks (4.80 / 5) (#48)
    by HD 64760 on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:36:39 PM EST

    Look at yourselves, people. Is this level of flamage and harshness really necessary? Really?
    Thanks; it does seem unnecessarily harsh.

    I've posted a link to a picture elsewhere in this thread, if you wish to look at it.

    Reunite Argo! Down with Carina! Down with Vela! Down with Puppis!

    [ Parent ]
    Appearance (3.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Souhait on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:36:41 AM EST

    I have serious issues in judging whether I'm attractive... I really can't tell whether any guy is attractive. Girls are easy - I react or I don't react. Guys, on the other hand... I can pick out the pretty boys, or the ones that do their hair up... but most of the time it's hard to tell. I find myself attractive, but I have no clue how girls view me. I'm only 18, so the rest of the issues don't have much to do with me. I'm not a virgin, but I've never dated casually and couldn't see myself in a relationship with most of the girls my age. While I would love to be having sex with half of the girls I meet I'm not willing to play the game and pretend to like them to do it - like a large number of people out there, I'm sure... I just don't find too many of those at my school. They all want relationships with someone, anyone... even if they aren't actually having sex. But that's another matter.

    [ Parent ]
    Try the obvious (4.92 / 27) (#31)
    by Eloquence on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:30:29 PM EST

    The solution to problems like yours is intuitive: Pay a woman to help you overcome your anxieties. And if you believe that I'm simply talking about a prostitute, you are mistaken -- with your life-long history of abstinence, the situation in which a prostitute will offer sex to you will only further intimidate you: She will expect you to perform intercourse within a defined time-frame (with a clock possibly ticking nearby), without much intimacy or preparation. Your problem, however, appears to be that of being unable to deal with intimacy at all.

    You write:

    There's also the anxiety. I was nervous about being alone with someone, with the stakes so high. For once in my life there was something I cared about: whether she liked me or approved of me. And I cared desperately about that. So I was the more nervous. And then I got nervous about the nervousness itself ... etc.

    It's clear that there are so many factors involved in a relationship that you haven't explored yet that you are simply not ready to face the "real deal" yet. People will tell you that you just need to try harder, but at your age, that doesn't seem like a viable approach. What you need is not a partner but a therapist. Unfortunately, I doubt that the therapies that are offered in most countries would help you much either, you need more of a "hands on" approach.

    But you can substitute the lack of such a "unified service provider for relieving sexual anxiety" by exploring the different factors of your sexual and psychological problems individually:

    1. Massage salons, baths, saunas and other body-centered activities help you lose anxiety about your body and about being touched.
    2. Escort services allow you to "simulate" a relationship. There are, of course, lots of social activities that are helpful for training to lose your shyness, but body-centered group activities (e.g.sports) would probably be more helpful than plain social interaction.
    3. If it is legal in your country[*], try a call-girl -- this is better than a standard prostitute, as you can agree on the terms beforehand in a non-personal interaction (in some cases even by e-mail). Try to make sure that there are few time constraints. You can even explain your problem precisely and make sure she understands that you want to explore all aspects of intimacy. Also, you may want to get a prescription for Viagra or one of its clones.

      This is quite expensive, but you have hardly any other realistic choice.

    4. If you have successfully explored your sexuality and senses, you should be able to deal with women without all of your current anxiety. Use a dating service. Again, here you can increase the amount of personal interaction gradually.

    Things I do not recommend using too much: cyber sex / IRC, passive and interactive pornography, standard therapy sessions. These can quickly turn into ends in themselves, as they all solve part of your problem, without solving your whole problem. One of the most essential ingredients of a healthy relationship, regular physical intimacy (not sex), cannot be substituted.

    In a better, less sexually restrictive world, these steps would be offered by a single therapist, but then, they would probably not be necessary in the first place. Directly trying to find a partner without having prior experience would be almost irresponsible, as you would be using her as your therapist. If she herself is sexually anxious (as is possibly the case, especially if you meet her using a dating service), this could lead to serious problems.

    Regarding your other problems -- gender identity, sexual alignment etc. -- I believe these are symptoms rather than causes. In other situations, they can also be causes, but you describe your sexual focus as almost exclusively heterosexual, which leads me to the assumption that your problems lie in lack of intimate experience.

    The proposed solutions may seem simplistic, but that is only because your problem is simplistic: lack of intimate affection. You can, of course, create a whole worldview surrounding your experience (or lack of it) -- either defining it as a complex disease, or as a lifestyle (as some religions do) -- but that does not change the causes of your problems. Cases like yours are probably not all that uncommon, and society doesn't really care about you, as it is suffering from a lack of affection as well.

    But don't believe that you are too old to help yourself. If you still want to experience intimacy, then you still can.

    [*] While banning prostitution is impossible, one of the worst effects of its criminalization in some nations is that those who are the most in need of the service will benefit the least from it. People who are almost sexually dysfunctional because of "sex guilt" / shyness will now face the additional psychological "barrier to entry" (pardon the pun) of committing a socially condemned and criminal act.
    Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy · Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
    spread the word!

    Good suggestions (4.55 / 9) (#33)
    by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:46:55 PM EST

    What you need is not a partner but a therapist. Unfortunately, I doubt that the therapies that are offered in most countries would help you much either, you need more of a "hands on" approach.

    One thing you didn't mention: Some sex therapists do offer a hands-on service, including actual sex. This is supposed to be very different from going to a prostitute, because it's supposed to be a more holistic service, involving emotional support and building up confidence, and more suitable for unconfident men. [More information here.] Although I suppose you might find a prostitute that is just as understanding and helpful as a "hands-on" sex therapist, if you're lucky.

    (Disclaimer: not speaking from experience here.)

    "Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
    [ Parent ]

    They do? (4.66 / 3) (#41)
    by Eloquence on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:09:38 PM EST

    From the DMOZ directory descriptions, I cannot conclude that these therapists offer actual sexual intercourse. Nor did I saw that mentioned on any of the sites. I would be surprised if this was taking place legally -- can you cite any specific example?
    Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy · Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
    spread the word!
    [ Parent ]
    Oops, wrong link (4.75 / 4) (#54)
    by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:52:49 PM EST

    Sorry, I just assumed there would be something in that category on it. Sloppy of me. The correct term is sexual surrogate. I heard about this profession on TV.

    "Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
    [ Parent ]

    I think (4.33 / 3) (#65)
    by adequate nathan on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:39:12 PM EST

    It should be covered by public health plans. Why should only the rich be able to afford sexual healing?

    "For me -- ugghhh, arrgghh."
    -Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, in Frank magazine, Jan. 20th 2003

    Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
    [ Parent ]

    Viagra on the National Health Service (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:29:49 PM EST

    I don't know whether you were trolling or serious, or just joking, but I agree. Actually this isn't quite as radical as it sounds. Viagra is already available on the NHS in the UK.

    Some disabled people in the UK find it hard to find a sexual partner, as you might expect. They have to travel all the way to Amsterdam to hire a prostitute legally. Sex should be available, for them at least, on the NHS!

    "Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
    [ Parent ]

    trolling, always with the trolling (2.53 / 13) (#85)
    by adequate nathan on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 11:16:21 PM EST

    Look, if you hate me because of my username, just say so. I chose it because, as a regular poster to the Adequacy, but not to this fine website, I wanted to let other Adequacy readers know that, in fact, I am the same nathan with whom they are familiar.

    Are my views so desperately alarming that I must be "trolling?" Are you aware the Adequacy has a strict "no trolling" policy? I do not troll. I certainly do enjoy controversy, but so, I assume, does everyone here. What's the point of discussion if it's a feeble front for idiotic, self-congratulatory doublethink? And if, occasionally, my tongue makes its way to its cheek and some idiot can't tell, well, then 'tis the sport to have the engineer hoist by his own petard.

    "For me -- ugghhh, arrgghh."
    -Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, in Frank magazine, Jan. 20th 2003

    Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
    [ Parent ]

    Not true (4.50 / 2) (#116)
    by streetlawyer on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:26:12 AM EST

    Some disabled people in the UK find it hard to find a sexual partner, as you might expect. They have to travel all the way to Amsterdam to hire a prostitute legally

    This is untrue; prostitution is legal (though strictly regulated) in the UK; a good friend of mine makes most of his living by preparing accounts and taxes for high-class Jewish prostitutes working out of flats around the Maida Vale area.

    Could I make it clear at this point that any requests for information arriving at the email address above will not be forwarded to my friend and will, most likely, be posted in the k5 diary section.

    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]

    Interesting (4.33 / 3) (#112)
    by Eloquence on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:06:43 AM EST

    Never heard of that before. I would imagine that these "hands on" therapists have permanent problems with the law, and do not exist in many states. On one site, I found this information:

    In order to qualify for a session with a certified sex surrogate you must be in a counseling or sex therapy program and referred by your doctor. You will be asked to confirm your eligibility by signing a verification of referral document. Without such documentation your work with a surrogate will have legal limitations.

    I guess being able to consult such a "surrogate" requires finding a therapist willing to refer you first. But it's good to know that this profession exists, as it is probably closest to what the story's author would need.
    Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy · Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
    spread the word!
    [ Parent ]

    And the show continues. (2.26 / 15) (#35)
    by Tezcatlipoca on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:56:13 PM EST

    More diaries as FP.

    OK, now I will post about how I feel the most undervalued person in the known Universe because I am left handed.

    "At eighteen our convictions are hills from which we look;
    at forty-five they are caves in which we hide." F. Scott Fitzgerald.
    Hey (2.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Spendocrat on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:16:29 PM EST

    It coud be worse: you could be a left-handed involuntary celibate...

    [ Parent ]
    It could be even worse. You could be a... (4.60 / 5) (#60)
    by SIGFPE on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:23:14 PM EST

    ...no-handed involuntary celibate.
    [ Parent ]
    There are even worst things.... (3.50 / 2) (#115)
    by Tezcatlipoca on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:22:40 AM EST

    Like been a left-handed involuntary celibate with gender indetermination problems (S/he yet another great FP article posted a few days ago).
    "At eighteen our convictions are hills from which we look;
    at forty-five they are caves in which we hide." F. Scott Fitzgerald.
    [ Parent ]
    A shame ... (3.87 / 8) (#73)
    by BlueOregon on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:00:16 PM EST

    The topic is somewhat interesting, and the writeup was pretty good, I felt. I thought it might have some potential for discussion, even given the very personal, almost 'help me' tone of the piece. And a couple of the editorial comments saying "+1 section" seemed to indicate that, too...

    ... alas, the story has been hijacked mostly by immature, short-sighted misfits who act like Beavis and Butthead, chuckle, and post "mail-order bride, hehe", "hire a prostitute, hehe", "boy, you're some loser, hehe", etc.

    Either the guy is rationalizing (given the extensive article), and just ugly, a loser, etc., as some posters have indicated, and he needs to "get over it", or perhaps there's something to it besides ordinary shyness and lack of confidence. If we assume the latter for the sake of argument, it might be nice to try to give serious suggestions ... and there are a few. My own thoughts are:

  • If it's shyness, fear of failure, and inhibitions, find a way to put yourself in a situation to lower those inhibitions (traveling to places where you're uknown, perhaps getting wasted, who knows ...)
  • Interpersonal relationships strictly of the form "me-you" have a bit of tension in the beginning phases. Has the author considered having friends play 'matchmaker'?
  • Hiring a profession -- of the shrink type. They'd have a better chance of deciding whether this is just "can't get laid" whining or not.
  • Is the case 'pathological' or too extreme for easy categorization? The author makes that connection by relating his situation to that of transsexuals and others with very non-norm-adhering gender identities and such.

    And the bitter bastard in me says something like -- this is just nature's way of elminating you from the gene pool.


    [ Parent ]

  • to the bitter bastard (3.50 / 2) (#97)
    by Subtillus on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:21:57 AM EST

    i'm not going to find a link for this so don't ask i'm too tired and i have exams to study for.

    what might be interesting to look at in your "gene pool" analysis would be the birth rates between the developed and devoloping worlds. Then, ask yourself, who's really being eliminated here and who's really going to have a shot at the next round.
    my money's on China.

    then again with the decay of the Y, we're all screwed in the long run.

    [ Parent ]
    to the bitter end (3.50 / 2) (#104)
    by BlueOregon on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:05:15 AM EST

    disclaimer: I don't claim to have provided any real gene pool analysis.

  • About China and and "having a shot at the next round."
    Sure, big population and all, but the interesting to look at there would be -- as anywhere else -- birthrates in the city, and in the country. I would expect to find a difference. And compared with many countries, China has a relatively low birthrate... just a massive population to start with. As they industrialize more, one would expect the population growth rate to slow.
  • Other countries, such as certain ones in Central and Eastern Europe have essentially negative population growth, at least if only the 'native' population is considered. Hungary is one country to consider. In Croatia the government has/had an official policy of trying to increase the population (giving families money for having chidren, encourages ex-pats to come back and such)
  • In any case, some of this is culture, some of this is economics (opportunity cost of children, career, etc.), some of this is perhaps environmental (toxins reducing sperm-counts, etc.) ... but I don't worry much about this for everal reasons:
    1. I think socio-economic factors carry more weight than environmental-toxin ones
    2. I couldn't care less about which ethnic group, nationality, etc. has more people, etc.
    3. I don't care if I belong -- as a number, as a statistic -- to a 'group' that demonstrates low birth rates, or whatever, for such stats do not predict or describe my individual behavior.
  • Back to the 'gene pool' comment: even if I occasionally say something like "this is nature's way of saying", I just want to keep it clear that I do not believe nature, genes, memes, evolution, etc. 'want' anything.
  • That having been said ... I've strayed quite a ways away from the topic of celibacy.


    [ Parent ]

  • I accept (none / 0) (#186)
    by Subtillus on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 01:05:30 PM EST

    for the most part, but think this topic deserves more discussion at some other point in space time.

    [ Parent ]
    Try AskMen or Doc Love (4.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Rudd-O on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 07:59:32 PM EST


    Check what Doc Love has to say and maybe buy his book

    Find a book named "Being a guy in a woman's world" or something like it.

    Ask Buddy (2.50 / 4) (#40)
    by zephc on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:07:27 PM EST

    To paraphrase Buddy Cole (aka Scott Thompson):

    *spoken with a heavy lisp* "What you need is lots of SEX with a MAN"

    Exactly (2.75 / 4) (#43)
    by Gwen on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:14:00 PM EST

    Ladies & Gentlemen, the wisdom of humanity is contained in Kids in the Hall.

    Also, never put salt in your eyes. Man, nothing good has EVER come of doing that.

    "So raise your hands in the air like you're born again
    But make a fist for the struggle we was born to win"
    -The Coup ft. Dead Prez, Get Up!

    [ Parent ]
    DON'T WASH IT OUT WITH VINEGAR!!! (1.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Subtillus on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:23:26 AM EST

    [ Parent ]
    I have to say... (1.90 / 11) (#44)
    by timg on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:19:52 PM EST

    Not to be a troll or a naysayer to an actual problem (God forbid), but maybe if these folks starting support groups and writing books and whatnot actually got out once and a while, and met people, they'd find their problems solved?


    Don't you think... (2.83 / 6) (#47)
    by greenrd on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:31:56 PM EST

    ... they've tried that already, fool?

    "Capitalism is the absurd belief that the worst of men, for the worst of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all." -- John Maynard Keynes
    [ Parent ]

    Obviously... (1.50 / 4) (#49)
    by timg on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:38:05 PM EST

    ...my comment wasn't directed to those who have tried it. "Fool."


    [ Parent ]
    Ask yourself... (4.33 / 3) (#79)
    by Stick on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:34:22 PM EST

    Why did you make that comment? Was it to help him or prove something to yourself?

    Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
    [ Parent ]
    Good question.. (2.50 / 2) (#82)
    by timg on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:40:49 PM EST

    But I don't feel like I have any thing to prove to myself. I found a wonderful girl after 20 years of shyness.

    But anyway, my main point is that is seems people could put more energy into self-improvement rather than meta-stuff. I'm too much of a conservative, I guess. I approach "groups" and "programs" and so forth with quite a bit of skepticism, and this whole IC thing somehow set off an alarm in my brain. I mean no offense, and I guess I should have been a little more verbose.


    [ Parent ]
    Relative Costs of Dating (4.50 / 4) (#50)
    by mindlace on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:40:23 PM EST

    I can empathize with this fellow; I used to be painfully shy. And like he says, I took it on as a "required course".

    The main mistake is not recognizing the asymetric cost/benefit of making new relationships, intimate or otherwise.

    If you're not in a relationship, and the date you're on goes poorly, you'll have lost nothing more than a night of your time.

    If it goes well, you'll have another date, or perhaps you'll even go to bed that night, and maybe, sometime down the road, you'll get married and live happily ever after.

    So the risk is highly asymetrical, and the upside - past another date - is all highly probabilistic.

    A certain, low downside, and an uncertain, potentially huge upside, is a very good reason to date and *not* be nervous about it.

    Lacking (4.75 / 4) (#94)
    by Souhait on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:45:34 AM EST

    One thing lacking in your cost/benefit analysis (I sound like a wanker) is not looking at the psychological effects of an accumulation of bad/failed dates. He's already got some serious confidence issues... throwing a bunch of failed first dates into the mix isn't going to help much.

    [ Parent ]
    You're forgetting probability... (none / 0) (#179)
    by Shajenko on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 01:49:00 AM EST

    Your argument reminds me of the lottery. If you lose the lottery, you're out a buck or so. But if you win, you've got several million dollars.

    If the possible win is so great, and you only risk a buck, why doesn't everybody play the lottery?

    The reason is because the odds of winning are so miniscule, it's virtually nothing

    Now, to a guy who's had nothing but rejection for years, what will he think the odds of finding a "soulmate" are? For me, it's nil.

    Hell, I keep hearing that 9 out of 10 women or so will reject any particular guy, and that's just for one date. If the odds are so bad just finding a woman that can tolerate your presence for an evening, they've got to be much worse finding one that wants to be with you for years.

    [ Parent ]
    Perhaps a solution (4.25 / 8) (#52)
    by QuickFox on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:42:31 PM EST

    I would guess that the best solution for you would be to try to find a woman whom you can inform about this from the very start, and who agrees to try to help you overcome the problem in a friendly atmosphere, without romance. Perhaps you can find her through contact sites on the Web -- there are lots of such sites, here's one example.

    Skip the romance, skip the kind of dating that allows you to wonder how she feels about you, since that creates so much tension for you. Just develop a friendly contact, with the express purpose from the start of overcoming this problem together.

    Perhaps the ideal would be if you could find a woman who has a similar problem herself. Then you'll understand each other better. But if you don't find a woman with a similar problem, you may find some other woman who is simply willing to help you in a friendly way. Most women do not make the great demands on romance that guys tend to assume they'll make. The most important things for most women are that you're sincere with her from the very start, and that you care about her feelings. Do that, and things may work out fine.

    Still, remember that she might suddenly change her mind and not want to go through with it. This is not very likely but it may happen. Be ready for it and accept it if it happens.

    One disadvantage with this solution is that there's a great risk that one of you develops strong romantic feelings while the other wants friendship. Both of you need to be aware of this risk.

    One extremely important detail: Shower every day, use an efficient deodorant, and use clean, newly washed clothes. Some people have difficulties because they smell bad, and very often nobody will tell them about the smell. Smell is far more important than looks! And showering won't help if you use smelly clothes.

    Also listen to her and talk about things that interest her.

    Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.

    It was very different for me. (4.50 / 6) (#55)
    by xtremex on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:54:26 PM EST

    I was a virgin until I went to college. Trust me..I TRIED, but I was in high school during the AIDS scare(mid 80's), and people were afraid of AIDS (that's what they told me :)).I went to college FAR away, and lost my virginity the first weekend. Then I went on a rampage..I practically screwed everything in sight. TONS of one-night stands. Now, I'm not bragging. I don't consider myself a good looking guy. I was socially inept during high school (too busy on my Commodore 128 ), and I looked at college as a "socila education". My grades were not the best, because I was too busy making friends. Remember, I had none in high school. It was a rebirth for me.By going to school far away, no one knew me. They had no preconceived notions of who I was.For me, it was great. They had no idea I was the resident geek. So I took opportunity and fscked the next for years. Things are different now. I am married to a wonderful woman and I am a very social person while spending at least 12 hours a day on my computers hacking Linux. So, I am still a geek, but have learned that I am a nice person, and am likable. It's all about self-worth. I didn't GAIN self-worth in college. I realized where it was.(Getting laid every weekend didn't hurt either). I learned some things. I learned that every one at some time in their life feels worhtless, and the pompous ases we all know have the lowest self-worth. I have 2 friends now. I've known them since high school. WHy? Because I've realized that I only need 1 or 2 close friends. My wife is my other best friend. (So it makes 3). So I guess I'm a pretty lucky person. But it really wasnt luck. I used logic and reason to get my goal. Readig the Art of War helped a lot (it really did)

    Travelling! (4.50 / 4) (#64)
    by QuickFox on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:37:29 PM EST

    By going to school far away, no one knew me.

    That reminds me: Travelling can sometimes be fabulous for loosening your inhibitions. You're among people who don't know you, so if you do something foolish it won't be remembered forever by your friends.

    (Actually people don't remember such things anyway. They're too worried about their own image! But if you're shy it can feel like they're observing you and remembering.)

    So, HD 64760, you might try travelling, sometimes that can help a lot against inhibitions.

    Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.

    [ Parent ]
    That reminds me (none / 0) (#111)
    by xtremex on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 03:35:35 AM EST

    I remember reading somewhere that since people are so focused on themselves, the avg time someone spends actually thinking about YOU is less than 45 seconds. Kind of disheartening, huh?

    [ Parent ]
    Travel to places that are openly sensual (none / 0) (#132)
    by midnight creature on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 07:54:33 AM EST

    I hear aussieland especially during the summer is and where I live in california it is pretty much like that year round in certain places like castro street in san fran and raves in silicon valley.

    [ Parent ]
    "I used logic and reason to get my goal." (none / 0) (#128)
    by katie on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 05:59:46 AM EST

    OK, that sort of thing is SCARY.

    Someone I know used to (and may well still) wander about just allocating points to every woman he'd meet.

    "Did you have a good evening?"
    "I met nine girls. None of them met spec."

    It was a FIXATION. That is not healthy. It's not healthy while it's happening, I'm not sure it's healthy afterwards.

    I'm not at all sure I'd like to find out that I was in a relationship with someone who'd made it his mission to "bed someone this year".

    People should not be considered trophies to be lusted after this abstract way: I could understand lusting after someone you've fallen in love with, but just being in love with the idea of being in a relationship?

    [ Parent ]
    Re:Logic and reason (none / 0) (#139)
    by xtremex on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 09:41:55 AM EST

    The logic and reason was not for conquering women, mind you. I wasn't what you would call a stalker or a point man. My whole attitude changed, and by being myself (and a little coaxing) I was able to be a "stud" of sorts. By logic and reasoning, my ultimate goal was to break free of whatever "mold' people believed I was in, to become a more outgoing person, and eventually meet the woman of my life.
    In my dorm, I was friends with Frat boys (but I never joined a frat..I never paid for friends), so I was welcome to their parties...there was no NEED to try. I was shocked that some ladies were more willing than I was. It was a wake up call compared to what I was used to.

    [ Parent ]
    The Free Market has a solution! (2.75 / 12) (#57)
    by Patrick Bateman 10005 on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 08:59:59 PM EST

    You can purchase a wife via mail-order from Asia, Latin America, or former Eastern Bloc nations.

    Cherry Blossoms
    Mail Order Brides International
    Big Bad Chinese Mama

    Keep in mind that many of these agencies depend on repeat business, so they aim to please.

    repeat business? (2.00 / 2) (#144)
    by fn0rd on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:40:47 PM EST

    If I had to do business with them again, it would be because I wasn't satisfied initially, no? Either that, or I live in Southern Utah...

    This fatwa brought to you by the Agnostic Jihad
    [ Parent ]

    I think chef has some advice for you... (1.22 / 18) (#63)
    by roam on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:31:48 PM EST

    You've got to find the clitoris.

    Are they like hamsters?
    Specifically, can I tape up a chinchilla, slather him in axle grease, and shove him up my ass? - Patrick Bateman

    IBONGA (3.75 / 4) (#67)
    by Maserati on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:45:27 PM EST

    Greetings from the Inernational Brotherhood Of Not Getting Any. I am proud to be a former member.

    I do have one serious point. Having been through about three years of more-or-less voluntary celibacy to clear my head, and another few involuntary years getting back up to speed on the whole girlfriend siuation, I can say that you may well come out of this a happier person.

    if you can find someone as sensitive to your needs as you are, then you'll be very lucky indeed.


    For the wise a hint, for the fool a stick.

    hah, my first year celibate i wrote a cute haiku (3.60 / 5) (#68)
    by skermit on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:46:38 PM EST

    Three-hundred sixty. Plus five makes one year to date. One year without you. I write poetry to deal with my frustrations dealing with the opposite sex.
    -Super Kermit


    in all seriousness (3.83 / 6) (#71)
    by adequate nathan on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 09:56:13 PM EST

    Catholicism should not be a denial of sexuality. It's better to marry than to burn (ie, with desire,) and there's no good to be found in treating yourself with unbearable harshness.

    "For me -- ugghhh, arrgghh."
    -Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, in Frank magazine, Jan. 20th 2003

    Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!

    Is the problem just celibacy? (2.50 / 10) (#74)
    by sluggy on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:03:06 PM EST

    Hmmmm, the problem here seems like some mental illness (anxiety) combined with some religious belief, always a dangerous thing.

    Picture (4.91 / 12) (#76)
    by HD 64760 on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:07:56 PM EST

    Since several people wanted a picture, I posted one, temporarily, on hotornot.com. I'm 6'0" and 155 lb, so not obese, either. I will say this: it never occurred to me that my physical appearance was relevant to the problem.

    Reunite Argo! Down with Carina! Down with Vela! Down with Puppis!

    Lookin' good! (4.33 / 3) (#81)
    by skunk on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 10:40:16 PM EST

    I'd have you figured for a college professor. Didn't I run into you once in the MIT Math department? :-)

    Anyway, seriously, I have to nod to your oversight; for what it's worth, you look quite all right to me. While I'm not prepared to comment on the deeper issues touched on by your article---good on you for having the courage to write it, btw---I'll just say, you'll look the part of an erudite ladykiller in the right wardrobe. Don't skimp on the suit!

    [ Parent ]
    LOL! (3.00 / 1) (#99)
    by sigwinch on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:28:18 AM EST

    I'd have you figured for a college professor. Didn't I run into you once in the MIT Math department? :-)
    I was gonna keep my big mouth shut out of tact, but now that you bring it up, I thought he looked like a philosophy professor I once had. ;-) Not that that's bad -- he looks quite OK. (In fact I'm jealous of his hair. He can pull off the distinguished-looking baldness thing, while I'm stuck with a silly looking sparsely receeding hairline.)

    I don't want the world, I just want your half.
    [ Parent ]

    i agree with the math punk (1.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Subtillus on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:32:06 AM EST

    that's right i said math punk, punk.

    [ Parent ]
    Anxiety (4.25 / 4) (#91)
    by dachshund on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:21:52 AM EST

    I'm not sure how big a factor anxiety was in your situation, but since you mention it in the writeup, I'll chime in anyway.

    What you said about queasiness sounded familiar, because I experienced the same feelings for a number of years through high school and the beginning of college (if you feel that this doesn't apply to you, feel free to disregard it.) Whenever I got close to even the possibility of sexual contact with a member of the opposite sex, I would get nauseous. If it went on long enough, I would get sick as a dog, which was, coincidentally, an extremely effective way to get myself out of a situation that troubled me. I began to feel relieved when one of these moments hit me, and I was "released" from the obligation to continue an uncomfortable situation.

    In my second year of college, I had an epileptic seizure, and was placed on Dilantin (phenytoin), which also has some effects as a mood-stabilizer. From that moment on, the anxiety stopped bothering me so much. Sure, it was there in some situations, but it no longer affected me to the point where I became physically ill.

    I'm not telling you this because I think you should be taking Dilantin or any other drug. I can't even say for sure that it was the medication that made the difference. It was a pretty interesting time, and lots of things were going on. But the change was so quick and noticeable that in my mind, the medication remains the primary suspect. The sensation of physical illness caused by anxiety has never returned.

    Although I'm sure you've looked into this already, consider talking to a doctor or mental health professional about your anxiety. Drugs might not be the solution for you, but if your anxiety is really as big a barrier as it appears to be (from reading your writeup), it's worth looking at that as a separate problem. Sometimes dealing with the symptoms individually is actually a useful way to solve the whole problem.

    Incidentally, knowing that you're not alone is also a very important part of getting over something. I found out (unfortunately, after the fact) that at least one close friend has experienced (and still does, occasionally, experience, now that he's in his mid-to-late twenties) the same physical reactions due to anxiety in intimate situations. Had I known that at the time and maybe had someone to talk about it with, I think I would have felt a whole lot better.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually drugs can help (4.40 / 5) (#131)
    by midnight creature on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 07:47:47 AM EST

    I went through a lull in my life that rendered me unable to process the emotional states of others with any significant amount of discernment. I lost the ability to the most basic functions of empathy and felt cold even psychotic at times towards things I did not understand or judged as "invalid" states of being. I would often ruminate about sexual relations of which at the time were sparse routines forced upon me by my at the time dearly devoted female friends whom I had become some sort of generic male confidante for whatever reason bemused them at the time. The drugs that helped were peyote and shrooms. Soul searching, so to speak broke me out of my spell and set forth in notion motion a more needful being. Until you need something wanting it is a waste of time.

    [ Parent ]
    Hrm. (3.00 / 1) (#175)
    by delmoi on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 06:53:17 PM EST

    You look like a pretty normal dude to me. A lot older then 40 though :P
    "'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
    [ Parent ]
    Hmm. (none / 0) (#192)
    by HD 64760 on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 04:54:20 PM EST

    Well, I think their statistics module is gronked. It claims I got a score of 9.5, but the distribution of votes suggests about 7.2 (eyeballing their bar graph).

    Anyway, not ugly. This kind of problem happens even to good looking guys (and gals).

    I'm removing the picture now. Post a comment someplace if you missed it and need to see it for some reason.

    Reunite Argo! Down with Carina! Down with Vela! Down with Puppis!

    [ Parent ]
    I would suggest (none / 0) (#194)
    by spiralx on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 06:35:47 PM EST

    That you lose the beard though. They do make you look older and draw attention to themselves rather than you.

    You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
    [ Parent ]

    sex, drugs, rock&roll (3.83 / 12) (#87)
    by aurelito on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 11:38:18 PM EST

    okay. here's the plan.

    your problem, basically, boils down to crippling insecurity. you're so entrenched in fear that i doubt you could figure out your own sexual orientation, let alone get laid.

    being a fourty years old involuntary virgin is nowhere near as bad as being inhibited by a crippling fear that has shut you off to the beauty of living.

    forget about simply 'having sex'. what you're really missing out on is intimacy and sensuality.

    "I love sensuality above all, sensuality that you neither pursue nor beg for, like a blessed respite in the parenthesis that is life." -- Bernard-Henri Levy

    simply put, start loving yourself. this is something that i struggle with myself, so i can emphasize with the difficulty. at the same time i recognize that it's a neccessary prerequisite for any sort of meaningful, rewarding relationship.

    ascertain your sexual orientation, and start working towards accepting and appreciating it, whatever it may be.

    (for the rest of this post, i'm going to assume you're heterosexual. if you find out you're not, simply substitute all references to female with male.)

    begin communicating and socialising with women, and not just for sex. if you can't socialise with women, you can't socialise with 51% of the humanity, and that's a shame. just start chatting more with coworkers, etc., whatever. your goal is not "to score" and lose your virginity. your goal is to improve the quality of your life.

    also, consider drugs. i've had a very rewarding experience with ecstasy that helped me understand how ridiculous and crippling and false insecurity is. during the 80s, before it was criminalized, many psychologists and psychiatrists experimented with it, often with wildly successful results. a relaxed evening with a few close friends (of both sexes, preferably), spent talking about how you feel about love, sex, relationships, etc. and reflecting on your mental state (i.e., filled to the bursting with joy, empathy, love, confidence) can be extremely rewarding.

    marijuana or alcohol (in moderation) can help you do away with inhibitions. but they impair your thinking, and you might find that you can't draw much inspiration from being intoxicated that you can apply to your everday life, as with ecstasy.

    erowid.org is a good source of info. as always, you should read about the risks involved, and make an informed decision. and, uhhh, umm, don't break the law, mmkay?

    also, consider taking a break from computers and the internet. i imagine you use it as an escape. take walks instead.

    above all, RELAX. live and love. sensuality and intimacy and love can be so beautiful sometimes it hurts, but in the best way possible. imagine tracing a timid finger along your naked partner's body as you watch her/him sleep. imagine being hugged by someone who has singled you out as the single most important being in her/his life.

    just breath, man. allow the intense beauty and sadness of living to animate your flesh.

    One wants to weep. (4.00 / 5) (#88)
    by jet_silver on Thu Apr 11, 2002 at 11:50:23 PM EST

    I find myself embarrassed by male sexuality, including my own.

    This is not only incredibly sad, it is a waste. I'm a bisexual male, and what I bring to sex is my maleness. Living without that would be very difficult indeed.

    The fact you are rejecting your gender and the sexuality that goes with it probably gets communicated to others by your demeanor and body language. People are mammals first, thinking beings second. I will bet that you are celibate because you are not offering sex in the subliminal communication we all engage in. Sex is good, not just fun, but good, and that is likely to be a missing element in the first impression you make.

    I have no idea what the prescription is. How to undo lessons you have rubbed in via self-flagellation is beyond me; perhaps a psychologist can help you.

    May you rediscover your sexual nature, and may it happen soon.
    "What they really fear is machine-gunning politicians becoming a popular sport, like skate-boarding." -Nicolas Freeling

    Individual reponses (none / 0) (#133)
    by midnight creature on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 08:02:08 AM EST

    Celibate people after a certain amount of time imhe take on the roles of both female and male parts in their own self-relationship. If they don't they tend to become assholes or bithces who whine and moan about everyone else's relationships. What he has become is quite sane, what you suggest would destabilize that. There is no need for an assignment of male and female roles in a relationship, that is so help bookish :)

    [ Parent ]
    This may sound simplistic, but... (4.62 / 8) (#92)
    by nstenz on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:27:37 AM EST

    ...you seem to have a slight problem with anxiety around the opposite sex. You already realize this. I'm sure this is your issue more than anything else.

    Everyone is making a big deal out of the sex part, but this has nothing to do with sex- merely intimate relationships in general. If everyone wasn't screwing everyone else before getting married, the word 'sex' wouldn't even come up.

    I used to be damn shy too, and as far as I can tell, I got over it by talking to people online (back in the day when you used a modem to dial a local number). I met people I'd been talking to, yadda yadda... dated a few... now I'm mostly OK. I've never dated someone 'out of the blue', though. I've always gotta get to know them first- whether they're a friend or a friend of a friend or whatever...

    You need to learn to be comfortable with people. If you think therapy will help you with that, go for it. Whatever you do, don't worry about making an ass of yourself. People who have a problem with who you are or how you act are a waste of your time anyhow- no use fretting about it.

    he should read (1.00 / 1) (#129)
    by kubalaa on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 06:28:31 AM EST

    Georgy Porgy, by Roald Dahl.

    [ Parent ]
    We had this great physics professor.. (4.50 / 4) (#100)
    by Weezul on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:31:39 AM EST

    ..at Georgia Tech (my undergrad institution). He got really mean for a couple quarters. The story goes that he had been mostly signle and got fed up with it. He descided to start dating and he was happily married within a year. For him at least it was just a matter of priorities.

    I have noticed myself in the same situation. I have not had sex since high school and I have had few sexual encounters at all since starting graduate school. I've always been shy anyway, but my priorities changed as a responce to the more interesting enviroments. As a friend of mine once said "math is better then sex."

    Still, I'm shure I'll start devoting more time to dating at some point in the future.

    "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini
    Danger! Danger! (none / 0) (#140)
    by darthaggie on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 11:05:34 AM EST

    Still, I'm shure I'll start devoting more time to dating at some point in the future

    Wanna bet?

    Study the mathematics of sex while you're in a conducive environment.

    Me? I've decided I'm solitary.

    I am BOFH. Resistance is futile. Your network will be assimilated.
    [ Parent ]

    Just wanted to wish you luck (4.00 / 4) (#102)
    by groove10 on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:38:09 AM EST

    Thought I'd use this space to wish you good thoughts in the hopes you will overcome your percieved issues regarding intimate contact. Here's to the hope that we can all share some part of ourselves with the people we love. Thanks.
    Do you like D&D? How bout text-based MMORPGs? You need to try Everwars. It's better than shooting smack!
    The real question is, IS it a problem? (4.72 / 11) (#103)
    by Kasreyn on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:43:20 AM EST

    I give you the example of Henry David Thoreau, considered one of the greatest philosophers and writers American ever produced, and a lifelong bachelor and (suspected) virgin. He was, by his own accounts perfectly happy with his asexuality. And I think the body of work he left behind him - his writings - should prove to anyone that he lived a worthy life. So clearly sexuality is not needed to live a full and happy life.

    Therefore the question I pose to you is, is your problem really a problem at all? Isn't it possible you're only posting this because, since you're so different, you assume that there must be a problem, and you assume that you should want things to be different? I in fact would tend to suspect that your life thus far may be proof that you honestly don't WANT a sex life. It's not bad or wrong to want to be celibate. It doesn't make you a nut or a religious crackpot.

    My advice to you (such as it is, since you're old enough to be my father) - and admittedly the advise of a fellow virgin, so it's not like I know much about sex - is to do what feels right and good to *you*, and not worry about whether you "should" be feeling or wanting something that everyone else does. Are you so sure your celibacy is involuntary? Maybe for you this is not a bad thing.

    Just some food for thought (I hope),


    "Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
    We never asked to be born in the first place."

    R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
    Surrogate Partners (4.57 / 7) (#106)
    by cyclopatra on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:59:25 AM EST

    Have you considered (or even heard of) a surrogate partner? This is admittedly somewhere between hiring a prostitute and seeing a shrink. Sex surrogates work with you in conjunction with a therapist to explore and work on issues relating to sexuality and intimacy. It's likely to be more expensive than the prostitute option (and probably less likely to involve actual sex, although it can; surrogacy focuses more on physical intimacy and touch than on 'the act' itself.

    Many sex therapists can refer you to a surrogate partner as a part of your therapy. If you think this might work for you, a therapist is the first person to contact.

    All your .sigs are belong to us.
    remove mypants to email

    You don't have a problem per se... (4.44 / 9) (#107)
    by Skywise on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:59:32 AM EST

    If anything you're looking at a cascade of loopholes you've fallen through. (Been there, done that).

    If you're anything like me, and it sounds like you are, you have a deep moral sense of purpose. That, plus a strong intellect/observational capability lead to your shyness (at least it did for me). (IE, It's wrong to talk out of turn, or say stupid things, so in situations of new personal contact it's better to say nothing at all, then say something that might offend... after a few days, and you've figured out the person's "pattern" you can make statements that won't offend, and things go from there... You don't have that problem in professional settings because your opinion is what you're paid for. And in dating situations its completely nuts because you HAVE to talk to this person without knowing them so you're going to say something stupid...)

    Okay, so you get to dating age and you're trying to do the love/relationship thing from a moral standpoint to honor God and your family. Except it doesn't work because most of the women you're meeting don't want a deep relationship at that time... they want to make out, and have the prestige of having a "cool guy" on their shoulder... And there's nothing moral in THAT. So now you're confused, wondering why every other guy is in love and you're the wall flower...

    Then you move to college. Now things are starting to make sense, except now you've got to find the "perfect mate" that you're sexually attracted to and personality compatible with from a more limited selection.

    If you strike out at college you're in trouble because the dating possibilities drop to near 0 from here on out in American society. Aside from church groups, singles cruises and a slew of findlove.com's, there's no good way of finding your one true love.

    Now here's the catch. There's no such thing as "love" from the intellectual/idealistic sense. Those who got married from high school didn't find their perfect match... they took the first mate they found. Marriages from college are a little better because the individuals have had time to figure out what they want in life... so they have a better chance of picking right... but it's still a crapshoot, because even then you're looking for a sexual/personality match.

    As an intellectual, it's worse because you're also looking for someone who's attractive, fun to be around AND intellectually stimulating...

    And as a MORAL intellectual, you've got to add moral compatibility to the list...

    >whew< After all that, how do you find a mate who matches these qualifications? And if you find one that seemingly does... how do you overcome the anxiety of trying to approach your goddess?

    Short answer: You don't.
    Long answer:
    Non-intellectuals make it with women better than geeks NOT because they're jocks... but because they'll keep trying til they get something and then move on to the next if it doesn't work out. The ironic part is that if the relationship holds... they'll learn to work with each other and BECOME the perfect mates...

    Basically, you tried to learn how to bicycle, you fell off every time and it hurt, and now you're thinking too hard about bicycling and how to do it and when to shift your balance and how to avoid that whole falling problem and philosophizing about the nature of wheels and handlebars ... and missing the point that bicycling is just FUN.

    Great story - been there, maybe still there (5.00 / 15) (#108)
    by johnnyc on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 03:03:56 AM EST

    This was a well written, thought-provoking story that really struck a chord with me. I was 23 before I had sex, and I never got much of it afterwards. After a while, it just got easier to be on my own. I grew comfortable with it. No one could understand why I had been single for so long, my women friends above all.

    I've never had any trouble attracting women friends, but none would pursue anything more than friendship. I always wanted to establish a friendship first, get to know her first without any pretense of sexual interest, and this I think was the wrong approach with the women I was really interested in. It has always failed miserably, though I've usually managed to maintain the friendship if there was something worth keeping.

    It's true that women can sense the emotional desperation of men who have not been 'loved', whatever that means to people. If they sense - and I think this is probably true for both sexes - that you are 'needy', they may get scared off. I know I scared off a couple in my time.

    One thing that helped me was talking with a very good friend of mine who was very open about sex. She was non-judgemental and sympathised with my predicament without giving me bullshit. She listened, and sometimes that's all we need.

    I too come from a Catholic upbringing. My parents, while liberal, came from a traditional Catholic background. Sex was not discussed, and the only sex-ed I got was of the crude school bus variety. I was clueless.

    Intimacy and sex. What I realize now is that sex is actually only part of the problem. Any man can ejaculate, but when you don't experience physical intimacy for many years, symptoms begin to show. Your ambivalence towards your body is one of them, and I can relate to this. I used to look at myself in the mirror and ask myself why anyone would want to be with me. (For the record - it seems to matter to some - I am 30-something, 6 foot, 180 pounds and have all my hair.) Another is a feeling of desperation, placing all kinds of pressure on women you don't know (and some you do) to be 'the one'. It's less about the sex than being comfortable with your own body and emotions. The problem is when you go a long while without sex or emotional intimacy with another, you don't know either very well.

    Some have suggested escort services and massage parlours to help with the physical dimension of your problem, and I concur. That's only part if it, but it will help. You have to start getting comfortable being with a woman. I would do some serious investigating first, but it is something you should consider. There is no shame in this.

    A woman you can talk to freely and openly without feeling that "this is the one" will do a world of good. My friend really helped me out. On a few occasions it was a catharsis, where I could feel myself trembling just getting this stuff out of me I didn't know was there.

    Eventually, it just helped that I could be comfortable with myself. Once I had gotten over what I felt, I just relaxed a little. I got over my guilt, and things have been better. A couple of years ago I met my girlfriend who I've been with for the last couple of years. It's going well, but I still have intimacy issues I have to face. But that's life - you overcome one problem only to face another.

    Thanks for sharing this. This is hardly ever discussed among men and I think this kind of discussion is necessary. Your story made me a think of my own, and I just felt like writing about it - disjointed as it may be.

    Intimacy? (none / 0) (#110)
    by Skywise on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 03:22:40 AM EST

    "The problem is when you go a long while without sex or emotional intimacy with another, you don't know either very well."

    Yeah, but isn't that true with every new partner?

    Granted you have to get over the anxiety of her being "the one". But for me, each new relationship took awhile to achieve the difference between making out and making love...

    [ Parent ]
    Intimacy (4.00 / 3) (#152)
    by niralth on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:11:05 PM EST

    There is "learning to be intimate with this specific person" and "learning to be intimate at all". They are quite different, and the latter has to occur before the former can.

    I can sympathize with the fact that if one goes a long time without emotional closeness then intimacy becomes harder and harder to acheive. One gets used to being along and closed off, and opening up again is not easy. Its is a different beast from building up an intimacy with a new partner.

    [ Parent ]
    Hey Well said (3.00 / 1) (#138)
    by yaksox on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 09:36:45 AM EST

    JohnnyC - Nice to read something intelligent. There seems to be an inordinate amount of insensitivity in this discussion ... enough to make me wonder if the original poster's piece has struck a chord with more than a willing to let go.
    zom·bie n. 3. One who looks or behaves like an automaton.
    [ Parent ]
    go look in the phone book for a nice hooker (3.30 / 10) (#109)
    by Angelic Upstart on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 03:10:21 AM EST

    Really find a working girl and tell her everything. Then screw her till you can't stand it. You'll feel much better.

    get the hell away from computers (2.83 / 6) (#113)
    by cheeze on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:06:50 AM EST

    the time it took you to write that 15 page story, you could have been out at a bar hanging around half-naked drunk girls. maybe it's time to spend a week or two unplugged.

    Try this... (4.57 / 7) (#114)
    by gnovos on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:16:21 AM EST

    ...it may sound like madness at first, but I guarantee you it will completely solve your problems with mental blocks on dates: Try to fail. I mean that in all seriousness. Make a game out of failing on dates. Get a few friends together and form a pact where all of you will try very hard to ask out and get struck down by as many women as possible in a month. You earn points by how rudely and swiftly you get turned down, and by how good looking the woman is that spits in your face. If you do actually get a phone number or a date, you must try to mess that date up as much as possible, no matter what it takes. If it is going too well, be prepared to douse your date with a glass of wine if need be, but whatever it takes, make your goal utter FAILURE. You want the women you go on dates with to completely walk out on you, preferably in a way that suggests that she is heading to the courthouse for a restraining order.

    It may sound and feel crazy to you at first, but once you mentally divorce yourself from the pressure of succeding on a date, you will suddenly find that things become much much easier. After a solid month of failing miserably, but on purpose, you will find that dating for "real" will become vastly less complex.

    A Haiku: "fuck you fuck you fuck/you fuck you fuck you fuck you/fuck you fuck you snow" - JChen
    This sounds... (4.00 / 2) (#118)
    by pschap on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:30:47 AM EST

    ...a lot like this. Any connection? Or does this kind of dating strategy come from some common source that I'm not familiar with.

    "In 1991, we had almost nothing. We'd only begun building cocks. After just 10 years, we have a very robust, active cock."

    [ Parent ]
    Cool! (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by gnovos on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:45:29 AM EST

    I hadn't seen that, but the concept is similar. The idea, and this can be used with anything, not just dating, is to train yourself on how to deal with certian situations without actually being in the "real thing".

    For example, when you practice Judo (or whatever) you start off in a classroom where the worst thing you face is a sprained knee. You aren't put into mortal combat with a knife wielding mugger on your first day! Dating, for the most part, is an activity where you are thrust into real situations using "live ammo" from the get go. This unnerves many people.

    So, you make a game out of it. If your aim is to fail, then you aren't in any danger of emotional damage.

    A Haiku: "fuck you fuck you fuck/you fuck you fuck you fuck you/fuck you fuck you snow" - JChen
    [ Parent ]
    Sounds interesting, but wouldn't work for me (none / 0) (#219)
    by vadim on Mon Jan 27, 2003 at 08:23:47 AM EST

    And probably for many others. The problem is that some of us are nice people, and the idea of intentionally annoying a random person just for trying to see if it helps us feel better sounds very nasty.

    Besides, how do you know that you won't ever meet again that person who now hates you, or worse, that s/he could have been the perfect girl/boyfriend?
    <@chani> I *cannot* remember names. but I did memorize 214 digits of pi once.
    [ Parent ]

    Your'e not ugly..your're Catholic (3.40 / 5) (#119)
    by StephenThompson on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:31:11 AM EST

    The Catholics have been messing up peoples sex lives for centuries. Everything they have told you--everything--is false. Once you recognize this, you are on the road to recovery. You don't need to pay a whore for sex. Just go to any online date club, or magazine with dating classifieds. There are lots of 40 something women who are not picky. Another possibility is to go to a swinger club. All cities have them. You just go there and have sex with strangers. Its usually free. The only catch is you usually need bring a female with you; but this isn't always so difficult, since the female doesn't have to be interested in you. Bring along a failed date from the dating club.

    Heinlein says it best (4.71 / 7) (#120)
    by jmd2121 on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:31:43 AM EST

    from Stanger in a Strange World -- a scene in which Jubal talks to Ben after their discussion of the amoral activities of Michael, which upon observing, had earlier caused Ben to vomit and flee:

    ... Ben, the ethics of sex is a thorny problem because each of us has to find a solution pragmatically compatible with a preposterous, utterly unworkable, and evil public code of so-called 'morals.' Most of us know, or suspect, that the public code is wrong, and we break it. Nevertheless we pay Danegeld by giving it lip service in public and feeling guilty about breaking it in private. Willy-nilly, that code rides us, dead and stinking, an albatross around the neck. You think of yourself as a free soul, I know, and you break that evil code yourself-but faced with a problem in sexual ethics new to you, you unconsciously tested it against that same Judeo-Christian code which you consciously refuse to obey. All so automatically that you retched . . . and believed thereby-and continue to believe-that your reflex proved that you were 'right' and they were 'wrong.' Faugh! I'd sooner use trial by ordeal as use your stomach to test guilt. All your stomach can reflect are prejudices trained into you before you acquired reason."

    thanks for your personal story. I was late in my life before I was finally intimate with women (26), and now I have a wife and two children.

    Good luck.

    Minor correction. (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by maroberts on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 05:16:53 AM EST

    Isn't Heinleins novel called Stranger in a Strange Land?

    Unless the US title is different from the limeys title.
    The greatest trick the Devil pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist -- Verbil Kint, The Usual Suspects
    [ Parent ]

    oops (none / 0) (#216)
    by jmd2121 on Mon Jun 24, 2002 at 01:18:11 AM EST

    of course, you are correct.

    [ Parent ]
    Very well written (4.66 / 6) (#130)
    by cyberdruid on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 07:43:41 AM EST

    I have seen many "standard male-techie" responses, which try to give a simple solution to your problem. My guess is that the cheerful suggestions of the type "get a hooker" does little to help and just serves to increase the feeling that no-one understands. I thought I'd just try to contribute som personal thoughts on the more philosophical level.

    If it was just a matter of personal happiness, this would not be an issue. Neither sex nor marriage is essential (not nearly as important as having close friends, which of course a spouse is - ideally) to live a full and satisfying life. The real problem with this IMHO is the social pressure from parents, friends, co-workers, etc, where not having a partner is seen as a failure. This turns an uncomplicated choice into something "shameful" and suddenly the situation gets infected. When one see ones own status as something to feel bad about, the tension and desperation increases (a classical downward spiral) and it is easy to forget that we are all here to play and have fun. If the dating game isn't fun, we can always play something else.

    In a very fundamental way we are all alone anyway. We can interact and play with each other, which is often great fun and a challenging and complex endeavour to boot, but it is all for nought if we cannot face ourselves alone and like what we see. This sounds like some cheesy self-help rethoric, but I think it the most fundamental truth of mental health. If you have no problem being alone with yourself, if you are comfortable with the thoughts and feelings of that person, nothing else really matters. Escaping into a relationship just to make the moments when you have to face yourself fewer, is obviously unhealthy.

    There is a very human tendency (we probably all do it to some extent) to project all problems on one issue - "If only I had a partner, everything would be alright", "When I have my degree, everything else will fix itself", "If only I had some money, my life would be complete", etc. This one problem is seen as the Great Obstacle that has to be taken care of before any of the lesser snags can be overcome. We all have problems we try to overcome and goals that we reach for. Reaching goals, however, is seldom very satisfying in itself. The journey _is_ the goal (IMHO an important fact, that we all must realise sooner or later to reach inner peace). Most people suspend living indefinitely, they forget to seize the day - to feel good _now_. Overcoming problems is just a pasttime. Something to do, because it is intersting for a while. Nothing has to be overcome to enjoy life.

    Ah, well, that was just my rant anyway. It got a little preachy. Perhaps it helped me more than it helped anyone else. ;) I honestly think it contains some insights which most people tend to forget, though. As for HD 64750 - the authour of the original article, perhaps your Christian leanings makes my somewhat hedonistic message sound alien and strange? Perhaps we can never understand each other, because our fundamental values are too different? (I consider myself a humanist atheist)

    Ignore the 'macho' attitude... (3.57 / 7) (#134)
    by Commando on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 08:30:28 AM EST

    As demonstrated in most of the comments, your average person is only worried about how many 'bitches' they can fuck in an evening. People really don't give a shit about each other most of the time.

    Get used to the fact that people are shallow and deep down nearly everyone is a bastard content to play mind games with those who have genuine feelings for them and would prefer to have sex with a stranger who they are purely attracted to on the basis of looks rather than share intimacy and compassion with someone they trust.

    Do some background reading. (4.80 / 5) (#135)
    by Phillip Asheo on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 08:30:40 AM EST

    I've mentioned it before on k5, but I have had a lot of success following Eric Raymond's Sex Tips for Geeks.

    They really do work, because they are specifically targetted at the kind of 'geek/nerd' mindset. Of course, Raymond's tone is nauseatingly patronising, but you just have to get over that, when you have, you will find the chapters on How to be Sexy and Being Good In Bed particularly useful.

    Raymond does not have much to say on the transgender issue, but his tips are applicable to most 'shy' people, not just geeks.

    It may be helpful for you to read up on something called Game Theory since you are not in a zero-sum game. You can turn your situation around. You need to understand that dating is a numbers game and work on increasing the number of opportunities you have to go on dates, and therefore meet someone.

    Finally, if you have confidence issues as to whether you will be able to 'perform' the act itself, then spending a few hundred dollars on a professional sex worker (who will have seen it all before) could prove quite therapeutic.

    "Never say what you can grunt. Never grunt what you can wink. Never wink what you can nod, never nod what you can shrug, and don't shrug when it ain't necessary"
    -Earl Long

    ERIC S. RAYMOND???? (4.50 / 4) (#163)
    by Treach on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:30:10 PM EST

    I'll be sure to put "Sex Tips from Eric S. Raymond" on my bookshelf right next to:
    • Benedict Arnold's Guide to Loyalty
    • "Principles of Quantum Computing" by Adam Sandler
    • that Darryl Strawberry book about healthy, drug-free marriage
    • Ringo Starr's entire post-Beatles output
    If Raymond wrote sex tips based on his actual experience, we'd see topics like
    • Buttplugs, Linux, Loneliness, and You
    • Why Doesn't my 70's Porn Star Mustache attract Women?
    • When I Stand, My Eyes Are At The Level of Most Women's Breasts (And That's Good)
    • Jacking Off: The Fourth Time This Afternoon Was Painful

    [ Parent ]
    Don't forget... (3.00 / 1) (#169)
    by David Quartz on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 05:30:07 PM EST

    That book Brittney Spears' mother wrote on how to raise children. An authoritative classic.

    Call your mother, she's worried!
    [ Parent ]
    Once You Find A Good Match... (4.50 / 2) (#136)
    by Lethyos on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 09:24:26 AM EST

    ...the anxiety vanishes. About a year and two weeks ago today, I found the profile for a girl on thespark.com's Spark Match. Her title included "self-declared UNIX geek". I emailed her and just talked about things that were interesting to me and what she indicated were interesting to her. Eventually we started chatting on I(CQ/RC). I found myself rapidly falling in love with her. She was the perfect girl for me, but I tried to keep ONE thing in mind. "Do not push it." My strategy was to not pressure her and maintain the mindset that "if it didn't work out, oh well". I had experienced rejection many times before, and I knew that if I got rejected this time around, it'd be hell for me. But this time around, it was unusually easy for me to have that attitude because suddenly the whole fear of her not liking me was not even an issue! We just talked about what we were into and it was all so simple. As it turned out, since we were able to connect in such a great way, from the moment we first met in public, it's been wonderful! My fears evaporated as I found myself developing a strong friendship that began to get closer and closer. We're now happily on our way to marriage. :)

    The moral of this story is that you may encounter failures time and time again. The reasons for that may be very simple. You're not dating the right girls. As a geek, I wouldn't be happy with someone who couldn't relate to me on my level of interests. Once you find someone who can, anxiety seems to just go away as you talk about things that interest you. The rest seems to just come naturally if all the right things are there.

    earth, my body; water, my blood; air, my breath; fire, my spirit
    a hooker (2.28 / 7) (#145)
    by mpalczew on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 12:48:11 PM EST

    What you need is a hooker! Make sure to tell the hooker you are a forty year old virgin and she might even do it for free. After you are done you will feel even more confused than before, but you will later feel much less inhibition and anxiety. You may need to have sex with a hooker more than once.

    You can also try going to a strip club and getting a lap dance, as a cheaper not as good alternative. You'll be with a hooker, but you won't be sleeping with her.
    -- Death to all Fanatics!
    Easy way to attract the ladies (4.33 / 6) (#148)
    by dbc001 on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:22:40 PM EST

    You can whine all you want about being shallow, selling out, etc, but I can give you a few tips that will greatly increase your chances with females: Shave. Get a short haircut. Work out. Do some aerobic exercise. Improve your diet.

    This should take 2-6 months for 90% of the people who read this. After that, you will find that you feel better (from working out/exercising). You will sleep better (also from exercising). You will look better because you're sleeping better and you are healthier. When you see yourself in a mirror and are satisfied with what you see, your confidence will improve. Women can detect this.

    When I started college I was about 5'11 and weighed about 120 pounds. I gained about 40 pounds of muscle in about 6 months. A friend of mine and I used to carefully observe that when one of us got a slick haircut, women always noticed.

    Some of you are thinking that you dont want to sacrifice "who you are" for women - if they cant accept you for who you are then too bad for them. Well, first of all, who you are is on the inside. And second, somewhere out there is a guy just as smart and fun and cool as you are - who is also in good shape and takes care of himself.


    You are forgetting something... (4.66 / 3) (#153)
    by mikael_j on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:12:22 PM EST

    It's a lot easier to get muscular if you start out skinny than if you start out fat. Now I was kind of fat (not obese, just slightly overweight), I tried to exercise, it just wasn't very effective despite me eating "right"...
    Then one summer I just decided to only eat when I felt hungry, not when others though it was time to eat, I also ate what I wanted to eat, pizza and candy, I lost about 15kg that summer. Then I started to exercise, I almost immediatly felt healthier.
    Oh, and about "selling out", some of us like our long hair thankyouverymuch...
    /Mikael (who could get laid if he wanted to but doesn't bother since he isn't that horny and isn't looking for a gf right now...)
    We give a bad name to the internet in general. - Rusty
    [ Parent ]
    fat - thin (4.00 / 1) (#157)
    by FieryTaco on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:52:36 PM EST

    It's in interesting situation. Fat people have a lot more discomfort going to a gym. They don't like how they appear and don't want to be seen in such a situation. They don't like the sweating. They don't like the comparisons with the normal gym rats. Etc. One thing that they never think of is this: The regulars at the gym will respect someone who comes in over and over and shows dedication more than they will someone who comes in once in a while, regardless of their initial level of fitness.

    Additionally it's important for people to realize that fat people have more lean body mass (ie. muscle) (yes, I said more!) than thin people. Whenever you have an excess of calories your body stores it in both muscle and fat. Once you start eating correctly and exercising regularily, as a fat person, you will find that it's easier for you to loose weight and when you have lost the weight, you will have a greater amount of muscle than a thin person would with the same exercise and eating habits.

    Just make sure you eat right.

    (And if you find it offensive that I said 'fat', well fuck you. I'm still fat, but getting healthier. And it doesn't do any good to quibble.)

    [ Parent ]

    Why would I be offended by the word fat? (4.50 / 2) (#158)
    by mikael_j on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 03:12:32 PM EST

    I just pointed out in my comment that I wasn't really fat, at least not by US standards...

    We give a bad name to the internet in general. - Rusty
    [ Parent ]
    Hair & status (4.00 / 1) (#156)
    by bored on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:46:18 PM EST

    He he he , I have long hair, been swearing i'm going to cut if for close to 4 years now. For some reason I just can't bring myself to do it. That and it seems every time I have just about decided 'monday i'm getting it cut' some woman gives me that 'I just love your hair' crap which makes my reevaluate getting it cut. I guess i'm still stuck somewhere in the last few thousand years when long hair on a male was a sign of a 'free man', vs the short cropped hair on slaves and the medium length hair on working men.

    Anyway, I was looking at some personal pages the other day when I ran across some pages where they have a 'turn on/turn off' section, where I took a quick pole. Long hair turned out to be the #1 turn off! Lol... gotta chuckle.

    [ Parent ]
    Do it! (4.00 / 1) (#165)
    by cameldrv on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:51:10 PM EST

    From personal experience, it helps a lot to cut it off. It does take a big impulse to actually go to the barber. You might try having a couple of drinks and psyching yourself up. It's a big change, but you will get plenty of compliments.

    [ Parent ]
    hrrm... (4.66 / 3) (#166)
    by mikael_j on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 05:00:30 PM EST

    AFAIK wether long hair is attractive or not has a lot to do with the rest of you, some people dress and act in a way that better suit long hair than "normal" clothing and behavior...

    We give a bad name to the internet in general. - Rusty
    [ Parent ]
    Long hair and clothing. (none / 0) (#176)
    by bored on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 06:57:36 PM EST

    I think your right on that one. I consider myself in the better suited category. :> I usually dress well, keep shaven and wear my hair bound into a pony tail. This in opposition to the long hair males who look like they just came back from an expedition in the wilderness.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep... (4.00 / 1) (#159)
    by araym on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 03:53:14 PM EST

    Early in my life I had some serious social and women problems. By the end of high school I was getting better and became much more social, I was doing reasonably well with the ladies because I've always been considered funny by most girls but I felt like I was at a disadvantage because I was very skinny. I entered college at 6'3" 140 lbs, I started working out, got a less dorky hair style, bought some nice clothes, took more care with my personal hygene. I've gained about 30 lbs of muslce in the past two years and I feel much better about myself, not only because girls are more attracted to me but when your body is physically fit and you eat well you feel much better.

    One thing I should add is that you don't need to be in top physical form to attract women but as I'm sure everyone has heard a thousand times you need confidence, and one of the easiest ways to build your self image is to improve your body.


    [ Parent ]
    Thank you, Joe Weider (none / 0) (#203)
    by jugglhed on Mon Apr 15, 2002 at 05:05:59 PM EST

    You remind me of 'Men's Health'. For some reason (free gift subscription, I think), I subscribed to this, and now skim it for postmodern enjoyment only.

    It is 'Cosmo for Men'. All the vapidity and image-obsession of Cosmo is there, but in this case the message is a man is not healthy unless he possesses huge, bulging muscles.

    As a guy who runs 20+ miles per week, I consider myself fairly healthy, and I will pass on the steroid laced supplements, thanks.

    Sorry, guess I'm off on a tangent here.

    [ Parent ]

    Friendship and Intimacy (4.00 / 3) (#150)
    by hatshepsut on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 01:56:04 PM EST

    You commented quite a bit about your feelings on dating, but didn't mention friends except from your childhood days (boys and girls from school). Do you still have a stong circle of friends? Do you go out with these friends, in casual social settings? Going out with friends as a group (mixed, if possible) is fun and creates a comfortable social setting where you don't have to feel the pressure you seem to feel in one-on-one situations. This is a good opportunity to expand your level of comfort with purely social situations, in a 'safe' environment (i.e. people you already know and like).

    That is the friendship part. As to intimacy, to quote your article:
    "There's also the anxiety. I was nervous about being alone with someone, with the stakes so high."

    Take a step back, please! The stakes are not, CANNOT, be high during the first few dates. This sort of nervousness-inducing dependency will scare away any date (male or female). Unless you already know the person well, taking the first few dates too seriously will scare people away - everyone needs time to start feeling comfortable with someone new to their lives.

    One possible way to decrease the apparent stakes, and maybe increase your own comfort level as well, is to do fun things that aren't exactly 'dates' but that are enjoyable to both of you. Some examples: go out for lunch at a restaurant neither of you has tried before, check out a special exhibit at a museum, see a matinee show, etc.. These are more relaxed social settings and avoid the whole 'do I try to kiss her at the end of the evening?' anxiety. Starting in this manner, your relationship can progress to more intimate levels at a rate with which you are both comfortable.

    I wish you the very best of luck.

    Funny thing.. (4.50 / 4) (#154)
    by nonsense9 on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:13:09 PM EST

    I've known a few - both men and women - with your problem. Now, I'm not saying this'll solve anything for you, but since this has helped two of them, I thought I might mention my theory to you anyway.

    First thing is the "problem". It's not a problem, it's just a mental dead-end. It usually starts with a mix of insecurity and high intellect. Hitting puberty we try to think through this love thing, giving ourselves little rules, chores and other stuff to remember when the vibe hits us.

    If we don't succeed, no-one pulls down our pants for us while we're drunk or no-one charms us into bed (sometimes I suspect those are the only two ways to get laid the first time) we sometimes end up with too many rules.

    We become bogged down. We spend most dates self-consciously roaming through our memory for the line or attitude that fits correctly into the situation, and we end up looking like automatons while our brains go into slow meltdown and the date itself drowns in awkwardness.

    The problem (and I think a lot of the advice here hints at that) is that sex is a bloody simple affair, but yet a precursor to most intimate relationships. By sex you gain confidence with the opposite sex, by confidence you allow yourself to open up, and by opening up you usually find someone worth opening up to.

    Therefore the suggestion of just getting laid isn't too bad, but of course it helps a lot more on the confidence level if you don't pay for it. This is why I'm not sure the hooker-idea would do much good.

    The solution that I offered my friends, and I hope will help you is pretty simple: loose control. Get drunk, go skydiving, bungee jump, or do whatever scares you most. Get used to situations that are beyond your ability to think your way through, and realize that dating is just such an activity.

    There is no solution, no technique, no right way to say things or a key to the heart of someone. There is only yourself, and ultimately that is what someone will react to. Therefore you have to cajole yourself, fool yourself or whatever it takes for your self-conscious philosophizing intellect to remove it's sorry behind long enough for someone to notice you for who you are.

    Sometimes it takes luck, sometimes it takes unforseen events, and sometimes you can do it yourself, by realizing your conscious mind is your worst enemy, and putting yourself in situations where it shuts down, leaving you mentally naked for others to see.

    An otherwise stupid movie recently had the line "most kisses start in mid-sentence" in it (Chris Rock said it.. go figure). In my opinion and experience that is also where you find sex, confidence and ultimately love.

    Skydiving while drunk... (4.00 / 1) (#196)
    by DrEvil on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 08:36:16 PM EST

    Get drunk, go skydiving

    Now there is a winning combination!

    [ Parent ]
    forgive me for going over covered ground (4.25 / 4) (#155)
    by Wolf Keeper on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 02:46:16 PM EST

    I don't know if I have anything of substance to offer, but I think the article deserves comment. First, as others have noted, give yourself credit for having the courage to make your situation known, even from the relative anonymity of the internet. Although I can recognize celibacy as a conscious choice, your article conveys that it your path only because you are uncomfortable with the alternatives.

    I sympathize with your indifference to your own appearance. You seem to be heterosexual. Do not forget that, as a heterosexual male, you are not attracted to the male form. Of course this is only common sense, but it is very relevant. Since you do not find men alluring, you can not even attempt objectivity in judging your own appearance. Forgive me for phrasing it in humorous terms, but even though I find individuals with curvy hips and breasts attractive, I know better than to consider myself unappealing for their lack. Body language, especially posture and facial expressions, can make or break your sex appeal. It's possible you're quite attractive, but since you have not believed it, your nonverbal communications have detracted from it.

    I would like to second the recommendations that you attend a (reputable) massage parlor and request service from one of the women. It may help dimish your awe and enable you to enter the sacredness of other's personal space if you were to be only minimally clothed while having non sexual physical contact with a woman.

    I would also like to second the recommendations for using a dating service to meet someone. Be completely honest about your circumstances, and see if you can find a woman willing to help. Do not pressure yourself or let yourself be pressured into sexual contact before you are comfortable. That may exacerbate the problem.

    I can really sympathize with your consternation while on dates. My brother had an infatuation with a friend but could not work up the nerve to say anything. They attended some university functions together, and he found her excessive drinking and taste in music distasteful. With the pressure to impress her no longer an issue, he began to make jokes around her, use more confident body language, and express himself and his interests. Once he did that, she actually became attracted to him and asked him out.

    My junior year in college some friends into joining the singing and dancing chorus for a talent show. My dance partner was had been dating another man for two years. Since we both knew there could be no romance between us, we felt no pressure and relaxed around each other. We discussed anything that came to mind and had fun. Three months later, she ended her relationship with the other fellow, and we started dating the next day. We were married three years later.

    So although it sounds counterintuitive, I would suggest choosing a woman and asking her on a date before you develop strong feelings for her, and not after. I would also suggest planned non-sexual physical intimacy, like making a conscious effort to hold hands while engaging in chat, or leaning against each other while watching a film.

    I don't know if any of this long post helped. Good luck, regardless.

    Involuntary celibacy? No such thing. (4.00 / 3) (#160)
    by gblues on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 04:06:01 PM EST

    Celibacy is a personal decision to not marry or have sex. By virtue of this, it cannot be involuntary. Nobody can make this decision except you.

    Lots of people have been suggesting hookers or other forms of cheap (or not so cheap) sexual gratification. In the same way that no amount of junk food fills the stomach, getting laid does not satisfy the human need for intimacy.

    Some have even suggested that sex is a prerequisite to intimacy, when in fact it is a fruit of intimacy.

    If you want to get over your fear of intimacy, I would suggest seeing a psychologist. Once that fear is gone, the rest will fall into place by itself.

    Nathan (not "adequate_nathan") :P
    ... although in retrospect, having sex to the news was probably doomed to fail from the get-go. --squinky

    Simpsons quote... (none / 0) (#191)
    by Mzilikazi on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 04:52:36 PM EST

    I always liked this quote from the Simpsons, from Marge talking about her sisters Patty & Selma:

    Marge: It's Patty who chose a life of celibacy. Selma simply had celibacy thrust upon her. -- "Principal Charming (7F15)".


    [ Parent ]

    Social Phobias and Prozac (4.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Trevasel on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 05:27:16 PM EST

    I have some manageable but painful social anxiety around people as well (both men and women). While being treated for depression with Prozac, I found that my social phobias really lightened up a lot -- I could talk more freely and feel much more relaxed in a social atmosphere - at bars, clubs, parties, and whatnot.

    The side effect was that I wasn't nearly as interested in sex as before. But I did feel a lot more comfortable around women :)
    -- That which does not kill you only makes you stranger - Trevor Goodchild
    I share similar feelings (3.00 / 1) (#168)
    by AKO on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 05:29:07 PM EST

    The reason for your celibacy seems very much like the reason for mine. We have spent much time around females, not around our fellow males during the early stage of our childhood. I spent much time alone, however, as I had not many friends until I was 13. We are more in tune with respecting female desires, we also have a lack of self esteem. For one reason or another, it could be possible that the fact of growing up not being accepted by those that are 'much like us' affects us in many ways. Combine that 'respect' with current American culture for sexual relation with females, as well as the laws against anything, and you have a problem. I noted that you said that the "men are expected to make the first move" type statement, which is very much truth, but it comes down to, "If I do make it, there are any number of things that could go wrong and it's not worth it just for a little bit of sexual pleasure." I'm not sure of your whole teenage-related story, but in my past few years of dating, I have struggled with this constantly. trying to figure out why I just can't. I have more girl friends than I do guy friends, I relate to them more, and I have no problems being sweet to these girls. I've had enough good comments from them about me than I can remember, but the one thing is that they are not willing to do 'anything' with me. It comes down to really what is wanted. They look to you for emotional response, emotional support. They look to you to always be there for them. When they need you, they know they can come to you w/o fear of being hit on. In many ways it is quite virtuous, but sometimes one must draw the line between virtue and self happiness. It is obviously difficult to handle such things, as ones own morals and ethics(although I cannot necessarily call yours, your own) conflict with what one wants out of desires. This is one of the many reasons(but not the major one) that I do not believe in any functional religion. It's the age old thing that I've been trying to determine myself. Fit all the qualities of 'the perfect guy' yet it helps nothing in terms of sexual desire. W/o sparking some debate with the women here, it really just does have to do with the female mind. It has to do with the fact that they are not attracted to you sexually. One of the only ways to get sex out of them is for THEM to be sexually desiring of you. You could have all the makes of the perfect sweetheart and the perfect romantic, You could devote your life to them, and they won't take you into bed simply because they do not see you sexually. So the problem is, shall one be virtuous and respectful or shall one get sex? Since you claim to lack the natural ability, then it seems pretty impossible to go for sex. As you do not have the ability to do it 'gracefully'. Unfortunately my only answer lies with the way the female mind works. The only way to fix it on your end is to become some sex driven monkey man, slapping them on the ass, treating them like dirt, etc. Either that, or you can move out of this country. I assume you live in the united states? If so, then leave. Now I know so many women are going to oppose my viewpoint here that all they want are sex driven men, but you have to understand our viewpoint here. We carry many of the things that women whine and moan about everyday, yet get no repayment for it.

    Life in prison. (4.71 / 7) (#170)
    by TeraTorn on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 05:54:55 PM EST

    Life in Prison sucks, no doubt about it, and it's pointless, considering the the prison bars are only figments of your own imagination. They only restrict your abilities because you let them. They do not exist.

    If your lucky, 40 years from now, maybey more, maybey less, your going to die. So am I, so is every living organism on this planet. That sounds scary, I know. Logic will help you to live the rest of your life without fear. Death is inevitable. It is illogical to fear the inevitable. To be the one true author of your future you must let go of the past. What has happened, the events that have taken place, everything that youve ever done from this second backward to the second you were conceived is set it stone. And it's no more relevant than if it were the tale in a long forgotten book. Like it or not, there's nothing you can do about it. Therefore, the only question remaining, is what will you do with the days your have left?

    To me, the only answer, is that I will do exactly what *I* want, without giving so much as a thought to what is socially acceptable. This is your life we're talking about, the only life you have, isn't it time *you* started living it?

    Please forgive me if this comes off harshly, I myself had mostly the same problem you have, until I had an experience that I call "self realization", the recognition as ones self as an individual. Before the fact, the living choices I made, were made because they were what I thought would be make look cool, basically. For example, I had a preference for wearing collared shirts and long sleeves even in nice weather, simply to atttemp to hide my somewhat skinny appearance that I was very self-concious of. This is rediculous. Now I wear whatever is comfortable.


    It only matters to you, because you have trained yourself so. The fact of the matter is that most people you will interact with, don't care about your appearance or your speach or any superficial crap like that, they are individuals and they will respend you as one too. There are people who will laugh at you (for whatever reason) in their minds, they themselves still play mind games, and their thoughts about you serve to give them strenght to reinforce their own weak ego's. Who cares? I don't, and I don't think you should either.

    The only reason you have trouble in intimate situations is because you are afraid to fail. Don't fear failure. Know you will fail a percentages of the times you try. Above all, know that you will succeed many times as well. Don't be afraid to fail, rather, embrace failure, recognize it as the next step towards your inevitable success, if your only willing to go for it.

    Another thing to remember, there are BILLIONS of women on this planet, there are countless thousands that you could love. If you find a chick that you are afraid to lose, please remember that you will actually be increasing your chances of improving the relationship by acting as your self, in other words, not *acting* at all.

    Another thought along the same thread... You mentioned that you're not sure if you would even call your situation a problem any more. As if there was a dictionary definition of what is a personal problem and what isn't. Noone can tell you if you have a problem except you. What do *you* want in life. What do you want to be different in your life? If what you want and what you have are two different things, then I would say you have a problem. The mere fact that you wrote this article tells me that you are seeking help. You wouldn't be seeking help if you didn't think there were aspects of your life that you would like to be different. Well, all I can tell you, is to take what you have and run with it. It is illogical to try to fake yourself out with little games in the hopes that you can make youself feel better about your life.

    If there is something about your life that you truly cannot control, forget about it. If you can't control it, theres no sense worrying about it. If there's something you want to be different, MAKE IT SO, don't give up, you can only fail if you stop trying.

    If you truely let go, if you comepletly free your mind of artificial constraints, if your only willing to go for it, unconcerned with the outcome, you will indeed be more free than you ever have been and you will feel better than you've ever felt.

    Agree: Don't Worry About What People Might Think (none / 0) (#187)
    by czolgosz on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 01:08:55 PM EST

    I agree with the parent post. The inhibition is ultimately due to worry about what people might think.

    In my own case, I was just afraid to ask, and really didn't have a lot of common interests with the girls I grew up with. I had had a couple of sexual encounters then, but they were not all that satisfying for either party-- too tense. I went to a geek camp in my junior year of high school (physics), met two girls there whom I actually had a reason to talk to, and that's how my love life really began.

    I think I'm like a lot of K5-ers in being on the borderline of Aspergers, or maybe weak ADD, or perhaps just undersocialized. Screw the labels. It took a real leap to overcome shyness and lack of self-confidence in social situations. I'm also not a handsome guy (now that I'm in my 40s, perhaps the word "rugged" might apply), and it took time to realize that this didn't matter to women as much as I thought it did. It took even more time to realize that attractive women's taste in men was generally no different than that of less attractive women. So there was no reason for me to set my sights low.

    I went through a period in my twenties where I forced myself to be social, and it helped reduce my anxiety. I would recommend getting in a situation where you have to interact with people. This should help enormously. And remember that it's usually the case that your potential partner is just as nervous as you are. Some empathy will keep you focused on her, and that will make you less aware of your own nervousness.

    And it's true-- if you're worried about what people might think, you'll never do anything. I think it was Feynman who best described his key discovery about sex: "What? You mean you just have to ask fot it?" Sometimes you'll get no for an answer, but less often than you might expect. And that's part of the fun in the great game. Believe me, breaking the ice is well worth it. Something that works for me: if you're nervous, tell her you're nervous. Being self-aware is a good second-best to being confident. And I've had some good friendships develop after rejected propositions.

    Another thing I've noticed is that I get a lot more offers when I'm not consciously looking. Maybe less seems at stake that way. And again, it's a matter of simple statistics: if you're not not spending much one-on-one time with women (or men, if that's who you prefer), there's little opportunity for a more intimate relationship to develop. So find a way to break out of your isolation by doing something you enjoy in the company of others. Worst case, you'll have some fun even if your situation doesn't change immediately.

    And remember that you're highly desirable as long as you're educated, employed, and not a complete lying, cheating scumbag (personal cleanliness helps too).
    Why should I let the toad work squat on my life? --Larkin
    [ Parent ]
    thanks (none / 0) (#197)
    by sal5ero on Sun Apr 14, 2002 at 12:33:35 PM EST

    for an absolutely inspirational post
    i've copied that for future reading when i need a lift

    [ Parent ]
    Since nobody else will say this... (4.00 / 1) (#171)
    by lightfoot jim on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 06:15:26 PM EST

    Ther is absolutely nothing wrong with being a 40 year old virgin. You seem to look at this like it's a problem you need to rectify, as if you are somehow missing out on something. What do you believe you are missing that you'll have if you become sexually active? Why? Although I find call girls and the like somewhat disgusting, maybe it would do you good to be with one, if only to discover that what you are expecting to find just isn't there. Somewhere along the way, you became convinced that intimacy would lead to some sort of satisfaction. However, in situations where physical intimacy was about to be a possibility, you felt uncomfortable. Your problem here isn't that you aren't being intimate with anyone. Your problem is that you believe two contradictory ideas, that intimacy is desirable and simultaneously that it is not. Of course you're frustrated. My suggestion to you would be to take some time to consider how YOU really feel on the matter, as opposed as to what you may have been led to believe.

    sorry for posting twice :( (none / 0) (#173)
    by lightfoot jim on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 06:17:49 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    Since nobody else will say this... (4.50 / 2) (#172)
    by lightfoot jim on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 06:16:44 PM EST

    Ther is absolutely nothing wrong with being a 40 year old virgin. You seem to look at this like it's a problem you need to rectify, as if you are somehow missing out on something. What do you believe you are missing that you'll have if you become sexually active? Why? Although I find call girls and the like somewhat disgusting, maybe it would do you good to be with one, if only to discover that what you are expecting to find just isn't there. Somewhere along the way, you became convinced that intimacy would lead to some sort of satisfaction. However, in situations where physical intimacy was about to be a possibility, you felt uncomfortable. Your problem here isn't that you aren't being intimate with anyone. Your problem is that you believe two contradictory ideas, that intimacy is desirable and simultaneously that it is not. Of course you're frustrated. My suggestion to you would be to take some time to consider how YOU really feel on the matter, as opposed as to what you may have been led to believe.

    Salon article (4.00 / 1) (#174)
    by wbd on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 06:50:19 PM EST

    Sexual healing

    I hope I can help in some way... (4.94 / 17) (#177)
    by cr0sh on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 07:29:00 PM EST

    I have to say you are very brave for what you are stating. There was a time when I too felt just like you probably do now, and I had a fear that "coming out" about it was somehow wrong.

    At the same time, it wasn't any secret that had little to no dates in my life - but the fact that I was a "virgin" for so long seemed like something shameful - something not to be utterred, especially around other guys.

    For me, it was something that basically started in junior high - when I think back on it now, being 12 or 13 and worried about not having had sex, it seems funny in a way. At the same time, seeing most kids today (and even then, which wasn't that long ago) having sex early, I wonder if I missed out on something.

    But I can't change the past, and I must move on.

    In junior high I tried gaining "girlfriends", and honestly, despite what I knew, I had no concept of "dating". I had no concept of "asking a girl out" - even though I watched more than enough shows that showed the concept - somehow it never clicked.

    In highschool, it sorta clicked - but I felt I needed to become friends with the girl first - that there was some sort of "logical" progression; first friends, then dating, then ???

    The problem was, up until that time, all I had experienced was rejection. Through junior high, and high school, though - I had one best friend (and incidentally, we still visit with each other). He was a "fat" guy, but happy, and we did some crazy shit together. We were both basically geeks (me a coding geek, he more of a gaming geek - still is), and we both didn't have much going for us looks wise. We were also both "desperate teenage boys". So, one day when he told me he "got the number" of this one girl - I was shocked - and figured, "well hell, if he could do - so can I!".

    It turns out that I managed to get the numbers of about 8 different girls - three of them on the cheerleading squad (and all "hot babes"), and one who could have been a cheerleader (she had the looks), but was instead in "honors" classes (ie, she was a GEEK with looks). Also, to put it in perspective, I was not an "honors" geek - I was smart enough to know I didn't want EXTRA homework (and besides, I needed more time for coding). The other girls would nice looking as well.

    I talked to them all on the phone - but none ever seemed to really want to talk with me, and none dared to be seen really talking with me at the school. I actually worked up the nerve to ask one out on a date (ok, so I had the concept down by now), not knowing how I would get her to whereever it was that we would go (it wasn't like I owned a car, or even knew how to drive - more on that later). I even asked her "publically" (somehow, I thought this was something you "did") - ie, in the middle of a classroom (chemistry class, IIRC).

    She turned me down.

    At that point, I stopped calling all of the numbers I had - and basically shut off everything relating to girls (that isn't to say I stopped "dreaming" about them, or stopped looking at them - no way - but the idea that I would ever date one seemed remote AT BEST). This was hard for me. Here I was, in high school, and it seemed that there was never going to be a way I would get a date, be seen with a girl, be taken as "normal". I didn't think my life was over, but I knew it was going to be different.

    I continued to hang out with my friend (he wasn't my only friend, I had others, all geeks, all strange, a couple I still see from time to time - one lives here in the Phoenix area with me, a couple of the others work for Blizzard), as much as before. I never heard it said out loud, but I got this general feeling, that still lingers, that I thought others at the school thought I (and him) were gay, that we were somehow more than just friends.

    Nothing could be further from the truth - we were just lonely, desperate teenage boys, who couldn't get a date to save our lives (despite him getting that girls number, it never did him any good either).

    That was the way it was through high school - after high school, we both immediatly left to come to Phoenix to go to a technical school (probably both the best decision and worst decision in my life - best for what happened after, and the people I met, and worst for not having gone to higher ed). We spent a year here, living in an apartment near the school - and after that year we went our separate ways: I found a job as a programmer for a local software development company, he ended up moving back home, where he lives today (as I said, we keep in touch).

    So, here I was, an adult - with adult responsibilities (rent, food, job, bills, etc) - no car (just a bike), but I thought I was happy - I had a roof over my head and a good job, a couple of computers, phone service (for bbs access at the time) - life seemed ok. After a while, though, something seemed missing...

    I didn't have any friends.

    Sure, I knew people at my work, and my work was small enough that I became friends with many of the people there (some, ten years later, I still keep in touch with). But you see them day in, day out, and unfortunately they weren't geeks like you, and looked at computers with disgust when they got home - so nothing meshed outside of work, so to speak.

    I was OK at work - on the weekends I was ALONE.

    Months, then a couple of years passed by - and I became desperately alone. Things seemed surreal at my apartment, somehow "not right". My neighbor was a cool guy, but suffered from strange major migraine headaches all the time. We didn't become friends, but we basically tip-toed around each others wierd ways.

    I tried placing a personal ad in a local free rag - but no dice. I tended to wonder if somehow people just didn't really like me, and only tolerated me when I was around. To look at me, I was no prize. I didn't have a car. I didn't make spectacular money. In essence, I was a nobody.

    I then tried striking up a friendship on an "adult" bbs (yeah, one with pics - but adult access also allowed you into the "personals" area, which is what I mainly wanted). I managed to have a great conversation with a girl on there, at a daily rate - I finally asked to meet with her "for real". She didn't seem to mind the fact that I had no car. I thought maybe something good could come of it all.

    We drove out, far out - far outside of the limits of where I had been on my bike (and I thought I ranged pretty far) - to a hill overlooking the city lights. It was a beautiful sight. But nothing was to be. I didn't know whether I should make any "first moves" - or what. I was a complete passenger. I had tried striking up regular conversation with her, but in real life, she wasn't very talkative, in the least. She drove me home, and that was the end of that.

    I felt pretty bad about it all - I wondered if I had done something, hadn't done something, presumed to much, presumed to little. Looking back on the experience, I probably did all of the above, and then some. Regardless, I felt worse than I had felt in the past. Things just didn't seem to be working out right for me, in the opposite sex realm.

    Some months passed by - and I got more and more depressed. I actually had a "breakdown" at my job - it all just sorta "came to a head" - and I busted out sobbing and shaking. I ended up leaving my work for the day (fortunately, everyone there was understanding, though they didn't know why I did what I did - at the time, neither did I). I ended up sleeping the rest of the day and evening.

    The next day, I realised that I really need a few things: To be accepted by society as "normal", to have a friend I could really talk to, and to get laid. Somehow, I saw that last one as being part of the first. Here I was, 20 years old, almost 21 - and I was still a virgin. That wasn't NORMAL.

    I figured I had one last shot - I would try a personals ad again, but in the mainstream paper.

    Now, you might wonder, why didn't I try a bar? Or a dance club? Or something else? Why the personals?

    If you haven't been following my story - you can see that I am not a very social person, I was even so back then. I had a bike for transportation. Can't exactly take a date out or home on that. Furthermore, I disliked the taste of alcohol, and I didn't like crowds. So much for bars. Finally, I can't dance, so there goes the final option (today, I like some alcohol, but only light stuff - with the exception of peppermint shnappes - and I still can't dance).

    The ad went out - and I thought "that's it - if I get nothing back on this, it is over - I will give up".

    I ended up getting three calls: the first from a man with a coughing fit (emphesematic gay cruising the straight side? I'll never know), the second from someone who said they were a guy but sounded like a girl (I will never figure this one out), and the third from a girl who was going to college, and wanted to have a fun time.

    I decided, "what the hell - option 3 it is"...

    My life has not been the same since.

    She taught me everything I didn't know about life. We talked a whole hell of a lot on the phone, about every little thing. What she did, what I did, our likes, dislikes, etc. When we first met, she came over to my apartment, and we ended up talking some more. I talked - but I shaked like a leaf, and tended to stay at one end of the couch - afraid that if I did something wrong, or something - she would leave, and it would be all over.

    We later talked some more on the phone, and she commented on my nervousness, and why I stayed away. I resolved to get closer next time.

    Well, to cut an already too long of a story short - we are now married. I happily lost my virginity to her (on the 3rd date), she taught me how to drive, how to be in social settings, etc. Her family has taught me a lot about life as well - and I am constantly learning more from them. We have recently bought a house...

    I do have to say I am glad that I did "wait" so long before having sex (not that I made that choice). For me, and I am not saying it is this way for everyone, but for me, there was a definite "before" and "after" - I am not sure what it was, but it was something different - something "changed". I don't know for certain, but had I "done the deed" when I was younger, I fear that I either would have missed it, or I wouldn't have been able to deal with it.

    I have also changed in a myriad of other ways - I act differently, I am more confident in myself, I am more outgoing. I have tried to temper my geek ways with that of my new nature, and I have managed to become a better person all around. I am still a geek, but I have more social graces and such than I did before.

    I hope this helps you (and anyone else in a similar state) in some manner. I guess above all, don't give up. I think sometimes we all just need to be able to talk and have someone else nearby. I think maybe in my case it was the fact that my friends and family were all in another state, and I felt really alone. That compounded with my sexual frustration just didn't go together very well. I was also naive about the world (still am in some ways). But I managed to get through it. Realise also that there are friends to be had out on the net - you may have to look hard, but they can be found. I would also suggest finding some kind of meeting or club to go to, if you don't have a problem with groups (I still have problems with groups - soon after meeting my wife, learning to drive, and getting a car, I got involved in the re-startup of the local 2600 group, and made many new friends through it).

    Good luck.

    Literary analogy (none / 0) (#206)
    by Skwirl on Tue Apr 16, 2002 at 10:53:29 AM EST

    Ever since reading Steppenwolf, or perhaps Crime and Punishment, I've had this notion of chancing upon a womanly savior that would assuage my conflicted personality.

    Of course, I really wouldn't want a savior, but an equal.

    No real connection to your post, just that the description of how you met your wife reminded me of that.

    "Nothing in the world is more distasteful to a man than to take the path that leads to himself." -- Herman Hesse
    [ Parent ]

    excerpt for purposes of review only (4.00 / 1) (#178)
    by killmepleez on Fri Apr 12, 2002 at 08:47:18 PM EST

    i'm not a virgin, but i haven't had sex for three years. this is not "involuntary" in the sense that i could not have plenty of sex if i wanted to. since i am ambisexual i theoretically have the entire population as potential sexual partners. i have certainly had plenty of offers from both men and women throughout this portion of my life. however, i find myself experiencing the same kind of "glass-ceiling" effect that the article's author describes, and when a friendship or even casual acquaintanceship comes to that point at which sex occurs or potentially may occur, i instantly withdraw and try to stagnate the relationship.
    it used to bother me, but now i can look back and say that these last three Celibate Years have by far been the most enjoyable, relaxed, non-depression-inducing years of my life. somewhere recently i crossed a line from being "single" to being "one", and i no longer experience the compulsive and consuming need for someone else's attention that used to get me into emotionally tortuous situations.

    naturally, dating or being married takes up quite a bit of time for those so inclined, and our society is structured around the institutions of mating. thus, you absolutely must have personal involvements, community activities, educational or spiritual enrichments, in order that you don't end up being "some sad old fuck" jerking off to late night teevee and feeling sorry for yourself. i still am able to make and keep close friends; i play in a large sports league 8 hours a week; i regularly spend time with my family; i love wandering through the city and observing people; i love always being able to get a table at any restaurant even during lunch and dinner rushes -- so that my life is full of pleasure and stimulation.
    here's a section taken from from Charles Siebert's "urban pastoral", Wickerby. after stumbling on this book in a used bookstore two years ago, i've made a small poster out of the last several lines and i keep it on the inside of my bedroom door.


    Whichever, I do know now about the dangers of spending too much time alone. About why lonely people are said to die young, and why hermits are always shown in movies wielding shotguns at the approach of strangers.

    Not that loneliness and log cabins are subjects I'd ever hoped to become well versed in. But when circumstances conspire to confine you to a log cabin--when, let's say, the woman you love leaves you... and remains out of touch for so long that in response to this and a whole other series of upsets, you suddenly decide to go away yourself, and have as your only refuge a collapsing log cabin that just happens to belong to that woman who left you--then you will, after enough time alone in such a place, notice how everything, your heart, your consciousness, begins to contract, harden, to form a protective shell around the altogether unnatural condition of loneliness. A condition you're soon spending all of yourself defending because it has so readily become you and all that you know.


    "I instantly realized that everything in my life that I thought was unfixable was totally fixable - except for having just jumped."
    --from "Jumpers" in The New Yorker, October 13, 2003.
    Bleh (4.50 / 2) (#180)
    by AKO on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 02:15:15 AM EST

    I think his nervousness about being alone boils down to the same nervousness that I have. Do they REALLY, truly mean it?

    The thing is that the words 'love' and 'attractive' are thrown around so much in our society that there is no distinguishment between the infatuative desire and the true meaningful 'love'.

    I am one that wants 'love' in the sense of the meaningful desire. The thing is we go around with so little self esteem, that the concept of someone actually enjoying us is frightening. Grown up with one reason or another to dislike the rest of the human race, when someone FINALLY comes to us, it's an extremely scary thing.

    I being 18, in fact, have turned down a recent girl who came to me. Yes, she came to me. There are a few reasons I turned her down, but the main one is that it feels to me to be infatuation. At her age(16), it probably is.

    The thing is that we don't get what 'we want'. We 'settle'. Out of a bunch of girls that I've dated, I've only gotten 'who i wanted' once. Everyone else I met in the off chance.

    When you're like me, and you propose your desire to a girl, and watch her turn you down to go for your best friend, that sort of thing is heavily devestating on one's own self esteem level. A girl that you looked to, that you worked so hard to try and get her attention, just to have it blown away.

    And then it goes back to my thing about when it finally does happen, the girl does not look for that sort of thing with someone like me, as they look to me for emotional support rather than physical pleasure.

    Some women will argue it's better to get her emotional support, but I assure you, I do not always enjoy only being there to be bombarded with problems when I have enough of my own.

    There is one thing that differs about 'emotional support' and using one for 'physical desire'. The pleasure aspect. When a girl is dumping all of these problems on the guy, it's not exactly a pleasurable experience. Especially if the guy cares for her, and doesn't wish to see her this way. And even more so, if the guy can't do anything about it. The primary goal of using someone for physical desire is the pleasure aspect. You're doing it for enjoyment, and they're doing it for enjoyment. Therefore, both will enjoy it. Dumping problems on someone in no way should be the foundation of two people hanging out. I agree that being emotionally close is a good thing, being trustworthy, but there HAS to be something that both can enjoy doing together or else it's pointless.

    But, then again, what do I know, right? I'm just a guy.

    Women's Pornography (5.00 / 3) (#214)
    by snowlion on Sun May 05, 2002 at 01:20:36 PM EST

    I have long felt that Romance Novels should be burned. They cause women to objectify men. In almost all counts, they objectify men as mere emotional toys to be used and then thrown away, like an emotional punching bag.

    There is no meaningful sex, no intellectual discussions, just a continuing tirade of emotional battery, as if the only reason we men existed were to serve as emotion-objects.
    Map Your Thoughts
    [ Parent ]

    Avoidant Personality Disorder (3.40 / 5) (#181)
    by mycroft VIII on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 03:48:09 AM EST

    Much of what you said strikes a cord. specifically have you looked into what's called Aviodant personality disorder? the needing a script or set of rules for social situations. the panic attack type responses. and so on sound familiar. though I'm only 32 and not a vergins, years can go by between girlfriends. even though I'm not gay, ugly, a jerk, ect. I thought I had social phobia, or was suffering from and eternal case of 'nice guy, but...' or who knew what untill I read the description in one of the books pschologists/phsychiatrist use to diagnose various problems. here's the description from another source
    The ICD-10 Classification of Mental and
    Behavioural Disorders
    World Health Organization, Geneva, 1992
    F60.6 Anxious (Avoidant) Personality Disorder Personality disorder characterized by at least 3 of the following:
    (a) persistent and pervasive feelings of tension and apprehension;
    (b) belief that one is socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others;
    (c) excessive preoccupation with being criticized or rejected in social situations;
    (d) unwillingness to become involved with people unless certain of being liked;
    (e) restrictions in lifestyle because of need to have physical security;
    (f) avoidance of social or occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact because of fear of criticism, disapproval, or rejection.
    Associated features may include hypersensitivity to rejection and criticism.

    the dsm_IV description is the one I read. it felt like someone hit me between the eyes with a hammer. A near perfect match, as your description sounds awfully familiar in many respect. Cognitive behavioural therapy is part of how it's often treated (learn to catch the incorrect thinking that imedeatly precedes the fear/anxiety and other emotions that stymie you) as well as anti-depressants (typically ssri's) and sometimes anti-anxietant are sometimes prescribed. in any case I would definately consider professional help. and if the first one doesen't help you (it happens, especialy considering that to help apd's is hard for them as they have to strike just the right balance with you or you'll eigther not get out of your 'shell' or they'll over rush you and you'll lose trust and bolt) go into any decent size bookstore and look in the physcology/physciatry section and look for a book on the DSM IV if you live in the usa. or it's equivalent where you live as well as anything else you can find on social phobia and Avoidant Personality disorder (or personality disorders in general) I sincerly hope this helps. People like us need all the help we can get. also search google on the subject here's a link that may help http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/3764/

    Patience (2.50 / 2) (#184)
    by kkith on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 10:53:40 AM EST

    >I'm in my late 40s, straight,male, a virgin

    Don't worry, every dog has his day. It is just a matter of time.

    Not true (4.00 / 1) (#207)
    by Shajenko on Tue Apr 16, 2002 at 12:31:19 PM EST

    There are millions that die every year without ever having "their day".

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks... (4.50 / 2) (#190)
    by HD 64760 on Sat Apr 13, 2002 at 04:51:03 PM EST

    I appreciate all the insightful comments. And also this whole article on the subject.

    It's important to have this out in the open where people can talk about it, in my humble opinion.

    Reunite Argo! Down with Carina! Down with Vela! Down with Puppis!

    Similar situation (4.00 / 2) (#198)
    by mike3k on Sun Apr 14, 2002 at 04:56:56 PM EST

    >I'm in my late 40s, straight,male, a virgin

    I'm in a similar situation except I'm gay & in my early 40s. I've never had the slightest desire to date a women, yet until a few years ago I refused to accept myself as gay and wouldn't even consider sleeping with a guy.

    I finally accepted it, and I now live in a primarily gay neighborhood and hang out with mostly gay men. My luck still hasn't changed, since everyone would rather have a 20-something guy than someone in his 40s.

    You've got me worried... (3.00 / 2) (#200)
    by mindwoven on Sun Apr 14, 2002 at 08:30:19 PM EST

    I am 23 and male and a virgin. Ok, I guess that doesn't sound as bad as being 40, but I feel sorta worried that I could be in the same situation in 15 years time. I am confident socially in groups and with friends and but when it comes to women and sharing feelings etc I am terribly shy. Girls/woman have liked me and I've liked them, but I have never had the guts to "go in for the kill" and ask them out or whatever. I could rant for ages here with examples and everything but I won't.

    You don't mention so much about your childhood - I am an only child, and my mother died when I was young, so I grew up with just my father. I guess this is a big influence on my personality. Growing up, I didnt get much 'visible' love through touch or whatever, because my dad wasn't in to that. I guess Im not used to being intimate with people.

    Its not something I talk about, but it's kind of important - This topic should really be a wake up call for me. Easier said than done though.

    Excellent (2.00 / 2) (#201)
    by Joh3n on Sun Apr 14, 2002 at 11:07:52 PM EST

    Very nice entry. I would say a few things, but it appears that all the bases have been covered by other comments. I did, however, want to give props for your effort :)

    Oh, one other thing, does your nick translate to
    RA:07 53 18.1586
    Dec: -48 06 10.562
    Astro geeks of the world unite.

    You can learn a lot about someone by popping in their un-rewound pr0n tape and seeing where exactly they came.

    Who's willing to take the time? (3.50 / 2) (#202)
    by reddirt on Mon Apr 15, 2002 at 01:45:59 PM EST

    This thread is very topical to me, having just come off another empty weekend. For the record, I'm 27 years old, straight, a virgin and have never had what most people seem to classify as a date. I've wondered off and on what's wrong with me and what I should do to fix it.

    I enjoy spending time with people, but am more interested in meaningful interaction rather than heading out to a bar, getting wasted and then singing karaoke until the lights go out. Dinner and a movie can be fun, but (at least in my opinion) a real date is simply finding a quiet spot and spending time simply being comfortable around each other. In college, I'd go over to the apartment where my sister and her roommates lived and we'd all stay up until all hours talking about whatever happened to come up (my sister is a math major and her roomies were education majors with assorted minors). We'd take turns cooking and whatnot, it was a blast.

    I really liked one of the ladies living there but didn't realize it at the time. I send email to her now and again, but responses are infrequent. I have enough life experience to understand what that means, I think.

    What are my options? Not sure. My computer-phobic mom met my stepfather on an online dating service (still boggles my mind) so I know that they work, but have had little success myself. I have a religious background so I tried visiting the singles groups at church and that was a scary experience. I think I can relate to females that complain of guys and their "elevator eyes". A quick appearance scan and an evaluation of my relative earnings potential and I get dismissed. Not that that's a bad thing, I want someone that I can hang out with not someone who only cares about pimping themselves out so that they can buy all the goodies they want. *shudder*

    To tie this into the original post, you're not alone. This also means that I'm not alone and oddly enough, that's a comforting thought. Misery loves company? *wry grin*

    -- James
    No, you're not alone. (4.00 / 1) (#204)
    by sjl on Mon Apr 15, 2002 at 08:37:45 PM EST

    As I implied (but didn't have the courage to say outright) in an earlier comment, and to use your own words: I'm 26 years old, straight, a virgin, and have never had what most people seem to classify as a date.

    Nothing is wrong with me. Nothing is wrong with you. It's just that we interact with people in a different fashion to the "norm". Both you and I, it appears, are after something deeper, something more meaningful than the quick flirt, here-today-gone-tomorrow type relationship that seem to be most first dates. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, though.

    The responses I've had when asking girls for dates have ranged from "Thanks, but I'm already involved", through "No, thank you,", through to "You seem a nice guy, but..." It's strange, but out of all the girls I've met, only a very few have really caught my eye in that way.

    If you're having trouble figuring it out, consider that there is more than one facet to the truth. You're after one thing; other people are after something else. This doesn't make them right and you wrong, or you right and them wrong -- it just means that they're different in their desires to you.

    I believe I know whom I want to be with. Her response hasn't been what I would like, but it has given me cause to hope for the future. In the meantime, all I can do is enjoy life as best as I can, and try not to dwell on what might be. Take the time to find new hobbies that you'll enjoy; I've just taken up Tai Chi and loving it, and I'm also intending to take up tennis soon. Pick something that's reasonably social, and hopefully, the more significant conversations will happen in time.

    One last observation with online dating: I've tried it. It didn't work out. My belief is that it can work, but -- at least for me -- the effort and money I would have to put into it makes it not worth while; plus, an online friendship can turn out to not really click in real life (been there, done that, got the T-shirt). The "best" service for me, given my location, charges about $30 for six "stamps" -- emails to other members. No guarantee of response from the other party, either. The hell with that for an expensive joke...

    But yes -- for a guy to realise that he's not the only one in this situation, that it isn't as abnormal as it seems at first glance, is a very powerful experience. Take heart, and enjoy life. I can see myself in a very deep, intense relationship; the hard part for me is getting from where I am to there. C'est la vie. In the meantime, one thing that gives me a great deal of strength is my one-year-old niece. Somehow, when I spend time with her, the fact that I'm single fades into insignificance compared with her absolute trust and love for me.

    And if things get too hard, and I find that I'm carrying more than I can bear, something that works for me is to take a CD (I'm very fond of Secret Garden, especially their first two CDs, "Songs from a Secret Garden" and "White Stones") with mournful tracks, turn it up to close to maximum volume, and let it rip. The tears start flowing, giving me catharsis; it usually takes a long time before I need something like that again (it peaked, for me, a while ago, and a very large part of the problem was a really crappy job, rather than my single status). Or the opposite: find yourself a room (preferably sound proofed, so the neighbours don't start getting worried), grab a punching bag or even just one of those "bags" that they use in gymnastics (the sort of thing that pole vaulters flop onto), and start punching and kicking to your heart's content. Screaming, too, if you can work up enough. There's a lot of sorrow locked up in there... but there's also a hell of a lot of anger, and that's the dangerous part, because so few people realise it; so few people can release it constructively... so when it blows over, it damages those around you. The kicking and punching and screaming helps to release the anger in a safe manner, that doesn't act destructively on those around you.

    I'm rambling again, I guess. What can I say? :) But I have absolutely no doubt -- there are women out there in exactly the same situation, too; this problem isn't specific to men.

    [ Parent ]

    Online Dating (none / 0) (#215)
    by Shajenko on Fri Jun 21, 2002 at 06:43:18 PM EST

    Online dating services work great.... for women. They are outnumbered by a large ratio, so they can pick and choose from the several hundred responses they get every week. And they don't have to spend a dime.

    Men, on the other hand... good luck. Just hope that the women happens to even SEE your message (and doesn't delete it based solely on the subject line).

    [ Parent ]
    Question from someone in a similar position... (3.00 / 2) (#205)
    by Mintaka on Tue Apr 16, 2002 at 07:40:55 AM EST

    Okay, I'm only 21, so I don't really count in this scenario YET, but I am kind of socially deficient. Here, I suppose, is my question...

    What does one WEAR when dating casually?

    I mean, this is always a big concern for me. My wardrobe consists mainly of blue jean shorts and various T-shirts in various conditions, from near-new to raggedy. (Hey, I'm a college student, and I never really gave a damn about my looks before.)

    I've never actually been in a bar. It kind of intimidates/terrifies me, the whole concept. But for some reason my appearance is my biggest concern, and I think I can manage it except for the CLOTHES, which I'm not too clear on. Anyone got any good suggestions for teaching a geek how to dress right for the women?

    That's easy! (4.00 / 1) (#208)
    by JChen on Tue Apr 16, 2002 at 03:26:09 PM EST

    Just watch a soap opera. No seriously. Watch a soap opera, not for the content, but for what the "successful" males dress like. Find a character whose personality is similar to yours, and adopt and/or modify his style to yours.

    Let us do as we say.
    [ Parent ]
    But you MUST remember... (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by Bakunin on Sat Apr 27, 2002 at 04:17:55 PM EST

    Please make sure the soap opera is fairly recent. Something recorded 15 years ago is not what you want. Especially if you're gonna pick a hair style as well!

    [ Parent ]
    Some ideas... (4.00 / 1) (#210)
    by mindwoven on Wed Apr 17, 2002 at 08:12:53 PM EST

    I think a smart/casual ben sherman/imitation shirt, perhaps in some pastel color. Smart jeans, black or cream say, or chinos. A smart jacket of some sort (Im not talking a suit jacket here, just like a smart casual jacket). Shoes - smart casual suedes or loafers or something like that. In fact, the whole thing smart casual. I could've just said that in one line.

    I think smart casual is the way to go - it's a compromise between geek/slob/tshirt and smart/bookworm/suit.

    [ Parent ]
    When in doubt: Wear a Suit (none / 0) (#218)
    by Talez on Sun Jan 12, 2003 at 09:05:29 PM EST

    To quote my girlfriend:

    "Every girl has a suit fetish. If you see a guy in a suit all you want to do is take it off him. Seriously. If you wore a suit I'd pull you inside and jump you right there."

    So far every girl I've asked has backed up this statement.

    Hence for Christmas I got myself a suit.

    Si in Googlis non est, ergo non est
    [ Parent ]

    I can empathize with you (4.00 / 2) (#211)
    by mcdania on Thu Apr 18, 2002 at 03:37:22 PM EST

    I also have a similar problem with the opposite sex. I desperately want to have an intimate relationship with a women but don't seem able to do so. Your problem as well as mine is probably some form of anxiety that needs to be reduced. You may have Social Anxiety Disorder also known as Social Phobia that may be general or just specific to dealing with women. Someone also mentioned Avoidant Personality Disorder(more serious I think). One thing I have learned is to take care of your other problems first before attempting to have a relationship. For example no women is attracted to a man with low self-esteem, just as you would not be attracted to someone else with low self-esteem. You should find a counselor or psychologist to discuss whats holding you back, this is what I'm in the process of doing. Then you might want to look at the following web sites www.sosuave.com or www.getgirls.com. I also higly recommend the book How to Succeed with Women by Ron Louis And David Copeland. Best of Luck to You.

    try this: (2.85 / 7) (#212)
    by newclear on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 09:01:47 AM EST

    HERE ///

    HD 64760,

    I've read through your article and i think i know your problem,
    Your regarding women as gods, Careing for thier opionion, And
    Thier aproval, just way too much, your trying so hard to keep your
    self together that you dont know what else is going on and cant pickup
    on her body language, Or your male insticnts.

    To start with, Fuck logic, Fuck common sense, Fuck every inteligent
    Thaught you've ever had, its about the pussy and your gonna get down to it.

    Before i get into the tips, try get into this mindset,

    You are a man, You are God.
    Women ain't equal, Thier bitches.
    One woman isnt worth more than another.
    You must take charge.
    You direct what happens.
    You can't wash your hands of your manhood, Your shlong is your sword, use it well.

    Being denied sucks, But, Dont get cut over it, its only a bitch, and thier
    is more meat in the freezer.

    Now my advice to help you get laid is,

    A) Go to a over 40's club or something, And dont try to pickup the first
    night or anything, just chill, And get used to the atmosphore and
    in no time at all, being thier you will become numb to your nerves-ness
    if you just relax and not give a shit about what other people think of you.

    B) When you talk to women, you can talk about whatever you want, talk computers
    if you want, i mean, I have, And it works good if you just clean up the way
    you talk, and when you talk, do this, talk about computers, and if they say
    like "I dont have a computer" or sometihng border line negative, be like
    "what on earth is wrong with you! have you been living under a rock for the
    last 5 years?"

    giving them shit kind of gives them a challenge, kinda, like, contunially
    being nice will make you seem desperate, so like, playing gives you a edge.

    C) Dont be a sleaze bag, If you wanna get laid, Its all about beating around the
    bush (pardon the pun) you dont just say "lets fuck like animals" you like, hint
    at it, and never... i say..never use pickup lines... thier just stupid and

    Example, Instead of saying "Want to come to my place for the night?"
    Say, "Want to stay for breckfast?"

    Be creative, And use your imadgination.

    The best things can come off the top of your head.

    Just relax, Thier only bitches.

    As i said before, If you cant get one, give up and try some other girl.

    I'm not sure if this works, But try have a bat before you go out
    because, beforehand you *may* be getting really randy, So realeasing the love will
    help you calm the fuck down.

    If you can, Try smoke some pot or get a bit drunk, it helps alot.
    It will be a fun experience, but you wont beable to get hard till your sober, so its
    a win-lose situation, But pot, Your all doped out and just as randy, more even.

    I mean dude, If you wanna score, Don't give a fuck about anything, Just let loose!

    Good luck Gettin laid!
    -- And once it was complete, god looked apon his own world, And he was glad, All he needed now is a wormhole to 1998 to get a Crownie.
    Nice to know I'm not alone (5.00 / 2) (#217)
    by trog72 on Fri Aug 30, 2002 at 08:37:33 AM EST


    Having read HD 64760's mediations on involuntary celibacy I found that I recognised his situation as a similar one to my own. I am now 30 and have not had anything approaching what I would consider a meaningful friendship with a woman let alone had sex with a woman. I'd like to think that sex isn't the be all and end all of life, and yet in this day and age when SEX SELLS, it's impossible to avoid thinking that I've missed the boat. I've always been involved in social groups and organisations since a young age, and have lots of things going for me. I'm fit, pretty good-looking, I've a PhD, I've won national medals in my chosen sport, I've taken up singing in the past two years and recently won my first competition, and have had success in performing in principal roles in amateur musicals and have been told I have great potential to move up to professional singing), and yet in the company of many people I am as a rule quiet and find it difficult to approach people. I also find that whereas other people seem to attract people to themselves and have no trouble finding people to talk to, in social situations I'm forever having to approach people to start a conversation and find that after a minute or two they will excuse themselves. And being a sensitive guy it only takes a few of these instances to finish me for the night and I spend the rest of the evening trying to convinvce myself that it's okay to just listen in on others conversations, or I don't bother at all and just sit hoping noone sees me.

    I've never had a woman I was interested in show any interest in me. On the few occasions a woman has shown an interest, it's a woman who is a complete stranger to me, and unfortunately it takes me quite some time to feel comfortable with women. I try. Really I try. I've accepted invitations to movies and chatted for hours over drinks or meals. But it seems like in the time it takes me to be comfortable with a woman she has long since rejected all thoughts of a relationship. And even remaining friends isn't an option, so although I might not have been interested at first, my attempts at getting to know them are fruitless and I end up feeling rejected even as a friend.

    I've only asked a woman out once because I loved her. And she went out with me because she was sorry for me. But I never went out with her after the first date. And I stayed in love with her for 18 months afterwards, slowly but surely losing contact with her, hungrily waiting for the dwindling and all too short messages she would send me via email. I then was approached by another woman who I got on well with and really liked. I was comfortable with her. But she had a boyfriend. I haven't seen her for 10 months now. We exchange the odd email. But I know that if I suggest we get together she will cease even this distant relationship. Any show of affection, even written, and the contact ceases until I try again a month or two later.

    I take things very seriously. I'm told too seriously. I get hurt by the things people say and do, even if not directed at me. A few months ago I was with a  group of friends. They started to laugh at a story of a man we all knew who had broken down and cried in front of them. I was furious. I put myself in the man's shoes, thought of the reasons behind his breakdown (he'd recently had a relationship breakup and difficulties in past relationships). I was disgusted with my firends, enough to stand up for this man (who wasn't a friend, just someone I knew) and make them see how he might have felt. But for my trouble, a woman I thought was a friend, basically told me where to go. I remained controlled but let her know what was on my mind. Although I was angry, I was simply honest about how I felt and why I felt that way. But she has used the situation against me, many of my current female friends are her friends, and they have naturally taken her side. I only met them through her. I now find myself isolated from all the women I know who I had some form of friendship with.

    I believe I was right. Laughing at a man who simply couldn't hide his depression any longer is wrong. And yet the attitude of my friends and family is that I'm too judgmental. That I am too serious. I should simply lighten up. I find myself once more contemplating my future as a single guy, not just as a guy who never will have a true love, but one who will never have any friendship with women. And it seems its because I care too much. Because I can't just sit and leave an injustice unchallenged. Because I can't sit at parties and listen to the shallow, insincere platitudes and bitchiness and gossip without cringing. Because I can't pretend that I find a woman interesting and want to make love to her simply because she likes me. Because I find it easier to really talk to women and be concerned with their lives and their troubles rather than joke around and make light of situations and be fun to be with. Women say that men don't talk to them. But the women I know don't want to talk to men. That's what women are for. They can't seem to figure out a guy who wants to talk to them (okay, I admit, and make love to them eventually if it works out).

    Contrary to feminist dogma, my experiences have made me believe it's women who think that men are just for fucking. Unfortunately, I simply don't work that way.

    Meditations on Involuntary Celibacy | 219 comments (214 topical, 5 editorial, 0 hidden)
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