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[P]
Why do the Usians hate the French so?

By nobbystyles in Op-Ed
Sat May 04, 2002 at 08:11:03 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

I mean, I am glad in a way that the USians have seemed to have inherited us UKian's mistrust of the French built over a thousand years of rivalry and wars. But even UKians don't seem to hate the French with quite the same venom as USians these days, preferring to save their ire for the dastardly hun...


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In many ways the French have been good friends of the US. They intervened in the USian War of Independence on the US's side and thus tipped the balance for George Washington's bunch of traitors. They donated the Statue of Liberty which the USians are so proud of. They have never been in a war against the United States and are members of NATO.

And France and the US share more in common than one might expect:

  • Both states claim to be the inheritors of the 18th Century enlightenment
  • Both claim to be upholders of liberty but with French also being interested in equality and fraternity
  • Both have firm republican traditions
  • Both are large, sparsely populated countries in comparison to most other western European countries
  • Both are unilateralist in diplomatic terms
  • Both got their arses kicked by the Vietnamese
  • Both are extremely arrogant nations
So why be down on the French all the time? As far as I can see the USian charge sheet against the the French consists of this:
  • Surrendered to the Germans during the second world war
  • Rude waiters in Paris who won't speak English
  • Doesn't arselick the US in the same way as their near neighbour and tries to follow an independent line in foreign policy
I will endeavour to answer these serious charges:
  • Everyone in Europe surrendered to and/or collaborated with the Germans during second world war bar the Brits and Russians. So that's a charge you can lay against Italians, Belgians, Swedes etc. So why single the French out.
  • USian tourists deserve to be insulted and not spoken to in English.
  • France more or less does what the US wants in most important matters.
So come on on USians, stop being so beastly to the French...  

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Poll
Reasons to hate the French?
o Arrogant 18%
o Fascists 3%
o Surrender monkeys 13%
o Garlic Eaters 2%
o Won't speak English 5%
o Won't kiss USian butt 9%
o All of the above 16%
o I love them 29%

Votes: 261
Results | Other Polls

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Display: Sort:
Why do the Usians hate the French so? | 549 comments (400 topical, 149 editorial, 1 hidden)
WW2 (4.25 / 8) (#5)
by mikael_j on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:16:54 AM EST

I don't remember Sweden or Switzerland surrendering to the Germans...

/Mikael
We give a bad name to the internet in general. - Rusty
Well (4.75 / 4) (#7)
by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:18:57 AM EST

They were pretty much collabarating with the germans whilst pretending to be neutral which is just as bad if not worse...

[ Parent ]
Something similar goes for Italy and Austria (5.00 / 4) (#16)
by Parrot Fish on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:27:28 AM EST

They weren't invaded. They went: "Hey, you must be those German folks! Come on in, have a seat!"

[ Parent ]
Bullshit, way friggin' wrong (5.00 / 3) (#84)
by georgeha on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:08:47 AM EST

Italy, along with Japan and Germany, called themselves the Axis. Italy willingly joined with Germany to conquer Europe.

Austria was invaded by Germany, and was an unwilling, conquered country. Yes, the Skoda works made a lot of arms for the Nazis, but it was udner duress.

Switzerland and Sweden were ostensibly neutral, but they sure took advantage of that neutrality, with Sweden selling lots of steel to Germany, and Switzerland taking lots of German money. Still, an shot down Allied flyer could do far, far worse than to land in Sweden or Switzerland (cf. Catch-22).

[ Parent ]

I'm no WW2 expert but ... (5.00 / 5) (#121)
by Ranieri on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:58:15 AM EST

Austria was invaded by Germany, and was an unwilling, conquered country. Yes, the Skoda works made a lot of arms for the Nazis, but it was udner duress.

I can't claim any authority on this but if i remember correctly the "Anschluss" of Austria was not only bloodless, but in many respect even a celebration.
I even remember seeing the original ballot for the "vote" that the Austian people took about it. It had a big box saying (in german) "Yes! I want Austria to become a part of the glorious German Empire!", and a small one that said "Nein".

No disputes about the "Axis", though Italy admittedly did little "conquering" in europe, contenting itself with a few plots of land in the African deserts.
--
"Look, Hoagie, it's a hamster! Just what I need for dissection lab tomorrow!"
[ Parent ]

A Six for you... (5.00 / 1) (#268)
by ti dave on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:23:24 PM EST

If I could give it.
The Austrians weren't invaded in WW II, until the Sovs entered the country.
Admittedly, they weren't quite as harsh towards Vienna as they were towards Berlin.


"If you dial," Iran said, eyes open and watching, "for greater venom, then I'll dial the same."

[ Parent ]
yeah but. (5.00 / 3) (#284)
by beleriand on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:00:05 PM EST

There was an underground nazi party (supported by nazi germany) active in Austria long before the takeover. Also when you look at Austrias borders (it is landlocked), you see that with Germany and Italy in the north and south it was difficult to have a healthy economy for Austria (iirc from my history lessons there where trade sanctions from the side of nazi-germany against austria, and of course massive propaganda for the "Anschluss"..)

In Austria parliament/democracy ended in 1933, and a fascist government was in place till '38. Socialist/Communist Partys where outlawed. This didn't help the situation in 1938, as the country really was not united..

There where many fanatical nazis in austria, but there was also some resistance. Sadly many of them where killed in the nazi death camps. The vote you are talking about was taken after the nazis had allready taken over, and in many places it was no secret vote. The nazis had many supporters allready, and they would watch how people voted... I guess the "No" Voters where put on Lists in some places, and later questioned by the Gestapo..



[ Parent ]
OK (5.00 / 5) (#25)
by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:33:14 AM EST

I'll change that bit to 'Everyone in Europe surrendered to and/or collaborated with the Germans' to be more historically accurate.

[ Parent ]
What is Europe? (5.00 / 1) (#171)
by Miniluv on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:56:35 AM EST

Isn't England part of Europe? How about Scandinavia? Generalities are almost always wrong, so why not drop the useless argument?
Broken links suck, so this sig does too.
[ Parent ]
Stupid boy (3.50 / 4) (#175)
by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:00:37 AM EST

Read fscking article, i edited the start of that sentence.

Here:

Everyone in Europe surrendered to and/or collaborated with the Germans during second world war bar the Brits and Russians.

[ Parent ]

Read my comment (5.00 / 1) (#269)
by Miniluv on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:24:19 PM EST

Does Scandinavia count as Europe? Are we talking EU or real continental Europe? Cuz if we're counting real continental Europe I'd take a long, hard look at Scandinavia's conduct during the war. They were neutral, sort of, in some parts. However overt acts of disobedience towards the Nazis, as well as lots and lots of covert, guerrilla freedom fighting went on, and no real sympathetic support actually occured. Definitely not to the extent which the Vichy French conducted themselves.

Broken links suck, so this sig does too.
[ Parent ]
England is NOT part of Europe (4.00 / 1) (#501)
by Wildgoose on Mon May 06, 2002 at 12:32:36 PM EST

...in fact, the British Isles were not considered part of Europe until the nineteenth century when somebody decided that every landmass had to be included in the nearest continent.

The British Isles are Atlantic Islands much like Iceland and Greenland.

And we are no more European than the average citizen of the United States of America. Somebody in an earlier post described us as "mongrel" (which I personally approve of), so once again we are more like our cousins in the U.S.A. or the Commonwealth (including India, etc.) than we are like Europeans.

[ Parent ]

Sixty years ago... why only French? (none / 0) (#423)
by svampa on Sat May 04, 2002 at 08:08:02 PM EST

Is that the reason why Frenchs are hated?

Why don't they hate Belgian, Polish, Dutch, Austrian etc... ?

If there were traitors, there were heroes also.. the resistence...

I don't think this is a valid reason why British should hate French. But... what's this got to do with USA?

and... It happened sixty years ago!!!



[ Parent ]
French supported the Confederacy (5.00 / 10) (#19)
by bosk on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:28:41 AM EST

I don't recall that they ever came into hand-to-hand combat with the Yankees but they were suppling the other side with arms.  They liked the Confederacy because they bought a lot of cotton from them and wanted to see the slave-labor-financed prices continue to stay low.  Then they invented demin but the US hijacked demin back and started mass-marketing jeans.

Personally, I like the French.  They named a mountain range in the Rocky Mountains, the Grand Tetons, which is the only time public officials can say "Big Tits" on television and not get slapped by the religious right because nobody knows what it means.

Confederacy (5.00 / 5) (#183)
by ucblockhead on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:20:44 AM EST

Yes, the British helped the Confederacy a bit as well...that's why it is amusing when you see British folks talk about how late the US repealed slavery...it was the British cotton mills that were funding the institution.
-----------------------
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
[ Parent ]
Better candidates for hatred (4.66 / 12) (#22)
by TheophileEscargot on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:30:27 AM EST

In World War Two, at least the French attempted to oppose Germany, unlike Holland and Belgium:

"No we're neutral... oh shit we've been invaded come and help us... oh look you've all been killed in our non-existent defences... oh well, tough shit."

Or worse, the Swiss "We're neutral... yes neutral in the sense of actively helping the Germans... that's our kind of neutral."

Regarding the Dutch, it has come to my attention in recent threads that the they are making a sneaky, insidious attempt to modify our English language itself!

Given their treachery, I propose that the hatred of the French is replaced by hatred for the Dutch. Their food and wine is worse too, so they can be boycotted without hardship. Start hating today!
----
Support the nascent Mad Open Science movement... when we talk about "hundreds of eyeballs," we really mean it. Lagged2Death

I agree (5.00 / 4) (#26)
by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:34:42 AM EST

They tried their best.  The US came into the war and had a wealth of info on how Blitzkrieg operated and were up against a german army who had been weakened by attrition in Russia. And they had some less than glorious battles against the germans themselves.

[ Parent ]
Kasserine Pass is hardly the best example (5.00 / 2) (#319)
by rantweasel on Fri May 03, 2002 at 05:39:20 PM EST

Kasserine Pass was the first major battle that US troops fought against the Germans in WWII, so it was a group of green US troops under a green commanding officer against veteran German troops.  Look at some of Patton's needless assaults where he could have just bypassed strongpoints and cut off supply lines, or the massive intelligence failures that led to the Battle of the Bulge, or Operation Market Garden, or so forth.  But to be fair, the French really screwed up compared to WWI.  After the invasion of Poland in 1939, they had plenty of time to get ready for the Germans, and they failed to stop them.  In WWI, they managed to keep the Germans from getting too far even though they were taken by suprise.

mathias

[ Parent ]

I did History A-Level and studied this period :-) (none / 0) (#476)
by meaningless pseudonym on Sun May 05, 2002 at 12:32:19 PM EST

OK:

* WW1 - Germany invaded according to a modified version of the Schlieffen plan. The idea here was that they had two forces - one very weak one, one very strong one. The weak one would be lined up to be knocked down while the strong swung round and caught the French army in the back while they were in Germany with no supply lines. Not a bad idea but they misbalanced the forces so the good one went too slowly and the bad one didn't fall over easily enough. Net result, stalemate.

* WW2 - France could have invaded Germany pretty easily in '39. Well, actually, they _did_, it was just pathetic and they turned back round again very quickly though. The Western front was covered in Allied tanks & armaments while almost all German forces were in Poland. Memory says there were something like 300 tanks from the French army alone, let alone the BEF. German forces in the west were almost non-existent. How did this happen? France was in real political turmoil. If it wasn't for the war it'd probably have had a revolution at some point in the early 40s. The strong attitude was of resignation, with little will to do anything. Net result not a lot happened.

Even when Germany invaded, going round the end of the Maginot line, they did not have miliraty superiority. It's just that the Allied troops (French command IIRC) acted poorly to put it mildly whereas the Germans thought it through and actualy tried to win.

As a historian, I'd love to know what would have happened if France & the UK had invaded and (say) captured Cologne...


[ Parent ]

The Dutch (5.00 / 6) (#32)
by dipipanone on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:46:58 AM EST

I half-remember a song about this, that went something like:

The Dutch, the Dutch,
I hate the bleeding Dutch,
They something, something, something, something,
And something too something much...

I've been wracking my brains for years to try and figure out what it was and what the words are, but I keep coming up empty.

Does anyone else know? I've got a notion that the vocal sounded like Ian Dury.

--
Suck my .sig
[ Parent ]
i think (5.00 / 3) (#80)
by highenergystar on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:02:18 AM EST

that something something something may have been unintentional, but extremely accurately depicts why nations in general are down on each other. most people seem to get along with people of other nations/ classes/other meaningless division but the moment they are grouped together then immediately its they something something something (either they actually dont know, or they dont care about specific behaviors or 'something' may be filled with a verb/noun etc) i've heard the song too, and ca'n't remember what its words were ...

[ Parent ]
Watch it , bub! (4.50 / 8) (#66)
by minusp on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:41:23 AM EST

Don't get us riled up, now, or we'll take back all the Dutch words you're using now. Cookies, we'll take back cookies, and you will have to eat nothing but BISCUITS.

Remember, regime change begins at home.
[ Parent ]
Well.. (4.80 / 5) (#133)
by Doktor Merkwuerdigliebe on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:08:16 AM EST

We also gave you "boss", "yacht", "landscape", "easel" (the painting thingy), "deck", "maelstrom", "gas", and the most likely etymology for "Yankee". And those are just of the top of my head... ;)

And how did they English repay us? By coming up with all sorts of derogatory expressions involving the Dutch. Dutch courage, Dutch uncle, Dutch widow, Dutch treat, Dutch comfort, talking double Dutch, etc. The list is endless. Bloody Brits. Still aren't over 1687 I guess...;)

Also Sprach Doktor Merkwürdigliebe...
[ Parent ]

Well .... (5.00 / 1) (#213)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:08:20 PM EST

If the Dutch Cap fits, wear it.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]
And... (none / 0) (#446)
by carbon on Sun May 05, 2002 at 12:58:58 AM EST

If it doesn't, we can have a Dutch Auction to decide who gets to buy it!


Wasn't Dr. Claus the bad guy on Inspector Gadget? - dirvish
[ Parent ]
Maelstrom (none / 0) (#463)
by pwhysall on Sun May 05, 2002 at 05:54:49 AM EST

Well, there you go.

I'd spent my entire life wandering around under the impression that maelstrom was a Norwegian word.

I have actually learnt something from this story.

Blimey.
--
Peter
K5 Editors
I'm going to wager that the story keeps getting dumped because it is a steaming pile of badly formatted fool-meme.
CheeseBurgerBrown
[ Parent ]

Actually ... (none / 0) (#440)
by Jacques Chester on Sun May 05, 2002 at 12:18:31 AM EST

in Commonwealth English, biscuit is used where in American English one would use cookie.

--
In a world where an Idea can get you killed, Thinking is the most dangerous act of all.
[ Parent ]
This got to be a joke (4.33 / 6) (#76)
by superbeppe on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:57:18 AM EST

Why on earth do you come up with such weak arguments to hate the dutch?
The Netherlands did attempted to opposse to the germans, but they had no army at all. They thoughed they could stay out of the war because they were neutral.

If you want to hate the dutch why not because:
Netherlands legalises euthanasia
Gay weddings now in Netherlands
Srebrenica massacre
legalised prostitution
legalised cannabis
or other things...

p.s. yes, I am dutch

[ Parent ]
The French don't quite like McDonalds... (4.66 / 9) (#30)
by Chancellor Martok on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:40:15 AM EST

A few months ago, didn't the French decide, in all the McDonalds stores around France, to replace Ronald McDonald himself with good ol' Asterix?

Personally, Ronald always looked sorta like a paedophile to me.... hmmm... Asterix is way cooler anyhow. :)

-----
Chancellor Martok  in Sydney, Australia
"Castrate instead. That can surely rehabilitate. I did it volunatrily, and my grades went up!"  -- Sen

Asterix [o/t] (5.00 / 11) (#58)
by vrai on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:33:57 AM EST

The wierd thing about Asterix was this 'magic' soup stuff he always drinks. Whenever he drinks it he is (or at least belives himself to be) super strong and nigh-on invincible. Also when the supply of his 'magic' substance is interupted he goes on quests to secure the ingredients and ensure he can get his next hit.

Only the French would have a PCP addict as their national hero!

[ Parent ]

they'd have two... (5.00 / 3) (#350)
by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:07:14 AM EST

but Obelix fell into it when he was a kid, so the effects are permanent whith him...

[ Parent ]

We hate the French? (4.25 / 8) (#35)
by your corporate master on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:52:04 AM EST

Hmm.  I can't think of a single person I know who gives a damn about the French one way or another. What makes you think we hate the French?


I know several. (none / 0) (#401)
by General Wesc on Sat May 04, 2002 at 12:37:10 PM EST

"Actually, I consider a French embassy a perfectly legitimate target" -- An Air Force Officer I know.
"A man after my own heart!" -- Dr. Spalding, professor of political science.
I could list a few other people too. And let's not forget "All foreigners, especially the French," one of the "horsemen" of the apocalypse. :-)
If asked their opinions, most Americans seem to be at least slightly negative.
France (the older generation anyway) seems quite arrogent to us (Americans). They used to be one of the big allied powers, but now they're relatively insignificant. Because they still have their old pride, they're the only country in W. Europe who will stand up to the U.S.
I loved it when we wanted to try for the death penalty on a French terrorist suspect. The English would have said "Well, we really think that might not be the best thing, but you're Big and Powerful, so we'll go along with anything you say, sir," but France came right out and said "No. It's barbaric. We won't help."
Whether they're right or not, I admire that. The rest of W. Europe often acts like a bunch of yes-men. when the U.S. says something. All of Europe agrees with France on this issue but none of them would have the guts to say it to our face. France if the voice of Europe, and Usians just hate when we're wrong. It's like the one kid who stands up to the schoolyard bully for everyone else.

--
General Wesc
[ Parent ]
death penalty (5.00 / 1) (#427)
by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 08:39:29 PM EST

Actually, there's an EU rule (sorry no link handy) that prohibits any EU country to "help" prosecute anybody in the world who is facing the death penalty. So technically, the brits should have said the same thing if it happened to them. But judging from Tony Blair's recent pow wow with GW Bush, I suppose he might have whispered it.

[ Parent ]

thank you (none / 0) (#549)
by roprice on Fri May 17, 2002 at 07:51:58 PM EST

for pointing out the very obvious, without belaboring the point as i've done. (#548).

[ Parent ]
Competition (5.00 / 9) (#43)
by dark on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:05:53 AM EST

I think the list of shared qualities is a better answer to your question than the "charge sheet" is. France is a competitor in areas where the US claims hegemony, and must therefore be put down.

Ok you missed a big point here... (4.20 / 5) (#44)
by Zeram on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:09:41 AM EST

Us USians hate the French because their women don't shave. That's just down right nasty, and they love it!
<----^---->
Like Anime? In the Philly metro area? Welcome to the machine...
Ok (5.00 / 3) (#45)
by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:11:06 AM EST

But the rest of them especially their sexy accents make up for that...

[ Parent ]
actully (5.00 / 5) (#48)
by Zeram on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:16:37 AM EST

I've met quite a few French people and I liked all of them. So personally I don't know why most Americans hate the French, though if I had to guess I'd say it's because the French tend to think that they are the end all be all of the Earth, and most Americans reserve that kind of thinking for themselves. Oh and the whole eating horse thing really doesn't help either.
<----^---->
Like Anime? In the Philly metro area? Welcome to the machine...
[ Parent ]
Horse burgers (5.00 / 4) (#57)
by gazbo on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:33:52 AM EST

I've never understood the disgust that comes from eating horse. I mean, how is horse really different from a cow? And in case anyone tries a similar argument about dogs/cats to show my double standards, I should point out I see no moral objection to eating them either.

At least when people are disgusted by frogs/snails/insects it is because they've never had food like that before. With horse it's just bloody stupid.

No, I have not eaten horse, dog or cat, but were I presented with them I would have no objection (as long as they tasted nice) I have eaten frogs' legs and snails.


-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

Maybe the whole cowboy thing? (none / 0) (#331)
by rantweasel on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:20:19 PM EST

I mean, an absurd percentage of the US' cultural icons are cowboys or evoke the cowboy image, we elected a cowboy actor to the presidency, we named an airport after another cowboy actor, etc.  I don't really get the horse thing either, but it does make a bit of sense within US culture.

mathias

[ Parent ]

That's not my experience with french ladies. (5.00 / 3) (#46)
by Parrot Fish on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:11:20 AM EST

But i tend to like 'm young, so it might just be the generation gap.

[ Parent ]
Joke alert.... (5.00 / 3) (#47)
by Zeram on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:14:03 AM EST

I was being sarcastic....
<----^---->
Like Anime? In the Philly metro area? Welcome to the machine...
[ Parent ]
No you were being stupid. (5.00 / 3) (#49)
by Parrot Fish on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:17:50 AM EST

I hate hate the french as much as any other American, but their women are damn fine.

[ Parent ]
Shaving.. (5.00 / 7) (#72)
by Doktor Merkwuerdigliebe on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:47:56 AM EST

You should check out the nudist beaches in France some time. It's not just the armpits that are well shaven these days...;)

Also Sprach Doktor Merkwürdigliebe...
[ Parent ]
Missing Poll Option: (3.83 / 6) (#52)
by greyrat on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:24:13 AM EST

"Goddamn Frog chocolate!" (an easy movie reference)

Full disclosure: I actually prefer European-style chocolate myself -- Mmmmmm, chocolate...


~ ~ ~
Did I actually read the article? No. No I didn't.
"Watch out for me nobbystyles, Gromit!"

fRench chocolate's good (5.00 / 3) (#53)
by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:26:31 AM EST

But not as good as belgian though...

[ Parent ]
Well (4.27 / 11) (#54)
by Betcour on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:29:06 AM EST

Everybody needs someone to hate, I guess the French are those the US decided to hate. Why France in particular ? My personnal take on this join that of the article author : France is one of the few country that indeed doesn't indulge into US asslicking like most other nations, which is somehow considered as "arrogance" by the US.

Reasons to hate the French (3.83 / 18) (#55)
by PhadeRunner on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:29:10 AM EST

There are many reasons to hate the French.  I'm British and my girlfriend is French, I should know.

Reason one and probably the most important is the fact that they hate us (Brits and Yanks), probably more than we actually hate them.

Reason two is that as a people in general they are quite distasteful.  The people of Paris are quite possibly the rudest in the world.  Whereas a Brit, when faced with a foreigner attemting to speak English, would slow their speech and make quite an effort to understand and be understood most French in the same situation (substitute English for French obviously) would make a concerted effort to be as obstructive as possible to making the conversation work.  

And another example, their attitude to queuing!  Last Xmas, I was attempting to get up the Eiffel tower (bird shit infested monstrosity that it is).  The queue was horrendous, being holiday season and all, and we ended up waiting near four hours to get in.  There was this guy and his family loitering around the queue, anyway he actually used his kids and his wife to push into the beginning of the line while he stood innocently to one side.  It was only when they were installed in a reasonable position that he himself actually took up his stolen place.  If that wasn't bad enough, while attempting to be subtle at the side he was whispering instructions to his partners-in-crime the whole time.  Man, if only I'd had a gun!  This attitude was the same at immigration in the airport, in traffic queues and pretty much anywhere else there was a line of people waiting.  

Place a queue for something (anything) anywhere in the world and you can guarantee that there'll be a Frenchman attempting to push in.  One good aspect of this is on Judgement Day, the French will push in to get judged first and maybe they'll all be sent to hell leaving the good stuff for the rest of us.  

Other reasons include arrogance (no they did not invent the meridian), eating habits (frogs, snails, horses and raw meat are not good cuisine) , general lawlessness in all parts of society, schoolkids on summer trips to your country and their ingratitude.  Ingratitude in that tourism is their largest industry yet they are complete sods to all tourists and I won't mention the war!  

Of course there are many reasons to love the French also; Le Mans, lax attitude towards speeding and other bad driving habits, motorways, fast trains, attitide to nudity (esp. women), movies, wine; of course there are more but even all these reasons not to hate the French don't make up for the fact that they are a distasteful bunch of garlic smelling, frog-eating, facist, wineo bastards

Usual rant disclaimers apply


I found (4.80 / 5) (#56)
by roam on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:32:12 AM EST

People in Paris to be much more civil than people in Berlin... but thats a different article I suppose.

___
Are they like hamsters?
Specifically, can I tape up a chinchilla, slather him in axle grease, and shove him up my ass? - Patrick Bateman


[ Parent ]
Ahem. Horsemeat is Great. (4.87 / 8) (#60)
by arcade on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:37:19 AM EST

After buying horsemeat for the first time, i've been hooked. It tastes so much richer and better than other red meats. Also, garlic is a Great spice, and wine is excellent besides a good meal w/horsemeat. :)

Long live the french, winedrinking, horseeating garligeating bastards



--
arcade
[ Parent ]
I'm with you on the garlic (5.00 / 2) (#146)
by PhadeRunner on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:23:58 AM EST

But I can't agree with eating horse, they are a noble animal and a friend to man and should be treated with respect.  

[ Parent ]
Noble animal (5.00 / 2) (#217)
by nospoon on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:12:43 PM EST

The only thing you shouldn't eat are mammals with opposing thumbs and dolphins, everything else is fair game and not intelligent enough to be 'noble'.

[ Parent ]
Hi-ho, Silver... (4.50 / 2) (#219)
by dipipanone on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:14:16 PM EST

they are a noble animal and a friend to man

...and extremely tasty to boot!

--
Suck my .sig
[ Parent ]
Noble ? (5.00 / 1) (#372)
by Betcour on Sat May 04, 2002 at 05:31:27 AM EST

Pigs are also extremely intelligent and loving animal. Raised in a household, they are as nice as any dog. And they are very clean too (it's only because they are raised in dirty places that they are considered dirty). That doesn't stop anyone from enjoying some strips of bacon or a few hotdogs.

[ Parent ]
Pigs are smart (none / 0) (#410)
by John Milton on Sat May 04, 2002 at 02:22:51 PM EST

Pigs are the fourth most intelligent creature on this planet behind humans, primates, and dolphins.


"When we consider that woman are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should Treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." -Elizabeth Cady Stanton


[ Parent ]
So, in summary: (4.88 / 9) (#61)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:37:48 AM EST

France would be a wonderful place were it not for the French?

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

I agree wholeheartedly (5.00 / 2) (#145)
by PhadeRunner on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:19:21 AM EST

Basically yes and I've said as such many times.  

Interestingly enough, my girlfriend who is French but has been living in England for the last two years, actually sees my point.  

Whenever she goes back to France to see her parents (who are lovely people BTW) she moans about how much she hates the people there.  

One time when she was travelling there with heavy bags, she commented that while in England, everybody helped her carrying bags and opening doors.  But as soon as she got back to France the people were totally unhelpful and were pushing her to get past onto lifts and trains etc.  

I believe that if, after living in the UK for just two years, a French person can come to hate her fellow people there must be something in it.  

She frequently apologises for the behaviour of her nation whenever we visit.  For this I am truely thankful.  


[ Parent ]

congratulations (5.00 / 4) (#364)
by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 02:58:19 AM EST

I believe that if, after living in the UK for just two years, a French person can come to hate her fellow people there must be something in it.
Or, you must be a god between the sheets ;-)

[ Parent ]
Cuisine (5.00 / 8) (#62)
by Betcour on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:38:17 AM EST

eating habits (frogs, snails, horses and raw meat are not good cuisine)

An Englishman commenting about cuisine... ironic to say the least.

[ Parent ]
It's not like he's Scottish.... (5.00 / 2) (#161)
by Elkor on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:46:10 AM EST

I mean, he doesn't eat Haggis or anything, does he?

Regards,
Elkor


"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
Goddamn them! (4.75 / 8) (#65)
by gazbo on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:41:06 AM EST

I really dislike queue jumping. I think it's because a queue is just so clearly the fairest system there is; queue jumping rewards selfishness - if there were no patient people, then everything would descend into an actual fight, as people battled to get in at the same time.

For queue jumping to work you have to have the majority of people being considerate and getting shat on by some fucking selfish wankers.

I do disagree with you about the cuisine though, I have no objection to that.


-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

I disagree with your views... (3.00 / 2) (#203)
by Rk on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:48:29 AM EST

Of course there are many reasons to love the French also; Le Mans, lax attitude towards speeding and other bad driving habits

In Germany, there are _no_ speedlimits on some freeways[1] (=motorways, for the Brits). And Europeans drive badly... Worse than some Americans. Every year, when it starts ro snow, freeway/highway pileups and HUGE traffic jams are inevitable.

, motorways,

Germany enjoys the distinction of having invented these. They were part of Hitlers program after he got elected. He employed many thousands of unemployed people building them, though their real purpose was far more sinister...

fast trains,

The TGV (Train à grand vitesse) is overrated. I've been on the TGV 'Au Coeur' from Zurich to Paris and it was so slow... Tilting trains are much better suited to rail conditions outside of dedicated highspeed track, which was mainly in between Dijon and Paris Gare de Lyon.

attitide to nudity (esp. women)

That's more a European (excluding the UK) thing. Have you seen German television after midnight? If so, I doubt you'd be claiming the French are the most liberal as far as nudity is concerned.

, movies,

I've always thought the French state-subsidised move industry existed more to satisfy French cultural need than actually make a profit. I doubt a great deal of French films break even.

wine

Yeah, OK. But there are plenty of other places that make wine as good as or better than the French now. It's just that people have the idea that French wine is somehow superior to everyone else's wine.

; of course there are more but even all these reasons not to hate the French don't make up for the fact that they are a distasteful bunch of garlic smelling,

It isn't just the French that smell of garlic, you know...

frog-eating

Let's not hold their eating habits against them. There are far less palatable dishses served than frog... like escargot.

, facist,

Oh come one... wait for Le Pen to actually get *elected* before calling 'em facists. Though I do see a kind of irony in that France was one of the loudest critics of FPÖ president Joerg Haider. OTOH, it will indeed be interesting to see how you react if and when the BNP get 30% of the votes.

wineo bastards

I never knew wineo was an adjective. I think the words you were looking for is whining bastards.

[1] Instead of a legal speed limit, Germany's Autobahnen have a so called Richtgeschwindigkeit or recommended speed (normally 130 km/h). You can go faster than this you want, but if your going faster causes an accident, you are considered responsible for it.

[ Parent ]

I didn't mean whining (5.00 / 1) (#208)
by PhadeRunner on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:58:11 AM EST

Wineo in this was my attempt at spelling the more-oft spoken word for a drunk wine-o.  

My evidence for this comes after driving more than 2000 miles in France last summer.  During this time we saw one speedtrap (something we are very used to in the UK) and the policeman there had a picnic table up with a bottle of wine on it and was asleep.  This, I might add, was while flying past at 130mph on my way to the Le Mans 24 Hour Race.  

Other evidence comes from visiting a small village in the south during fete (carnival) week.  There was a small police presence there, one car and 3 uniformed officers...all staggering around, with beer in hand, laughing their asses off at something.  

While the French certainly don't binge drink to excess like the Brits, they are all certainly a little bit drunk all of the time!


[ Parent ]

Yup we hate the French... (2.66 / 15) (#59)
by Rocky on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:35:33 AM EST

...but it's the Brits on K5 that are the assclowns...

If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?
- Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
"assclown" (4.50 / 8) (#63)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:39:13 AM EST

I just have to say that that is the lamest insult I have ever heard.

Christ, I thought "Piss off, you bummer" was bad, but no, you've managed to even out-do that.

Well done.

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

OK... (4.40 / 5) (#73)
by Rocky on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:49:14 AM EST

Thanks for replying.

You have nice day now, y'hear?

If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?
- Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
[ Parent ]

Fuck you (4.20 / 5) (#78)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:58:22 AM EST

Don't you fucking well dare try and tell me what kind of a fucking day I should cunting well be having, you filthy and degenerate utter cunt.

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

Now, now.... (5.00 / 5) (#88)
by Rocky on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:22:44 AM EST

...I understand your frustration, but that's no way to speak to your betters.  I'm sure the feeling of impotence you Brits must be feeling at this point in history is almost unbearable.  

I mean, you had a world spanning empire, but know you're stuck back on your little island with your hard cheeses, quaint driving habits, and substandard dental care.

I don't blame you for feeling testy.  Go have a Budweiser on me, will ya?

If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?
- Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
[ Parent ]

That's the one (4.20 / 5) (#90)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:24:55 AM EST

My house is older than your country.

England has managed to survive over two thousand years.

You think that you've got it made? USia's still an infant. Perhaps when USia has thousands of years of history you'll have a point.

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

On behalf of the U.S.... (4.20 / 5) (#95)
by Rocky on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:29:05 AM EST

...I'd just like to say, thanks for paving the way ahead of us...

...and thanks for inventing the flush toilet.

If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?
- Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
[ Parent ]

Your house? (5.00 / 3) (#141)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:15:32 AM EST

My house is older than your country.

And your proud of this?

:-P

Actually, that was one of the things that was really cool about my trip to London (years ago I got rushed there to do some emergency bug fixes for a customer) - first the realization I was standing in a building that was 4 times the age of my country and, second, realizing that a lot of the monuments in Philadelphia were (apparently) knock-offs of older British ones.

There's a park in Philadelphia that was built for the centennial celebration in 1876; has a big arch and some statues and fountains. Never paid much attention till I saw Trafalgar Square. Heh. I had a sudden vision of Phillie's city elders saying "London has a what?!? Well we can make one of those too, you know!"

But I do have to say that the only good food I had during my entire trip was from a little fish-and-chips place. The resteraunts there were just god awful (this was back in the early 90s - I hear things have changed since then?)


--
Uhhh.... Where did I drop that clue?
I know I had one just a minute ago!


[ Parent ]
Food in central London (3.66 / 3) (#147)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:24:49 AM EST

You can get lovely food of all descriptions... you just need to know where to go.

I really like the city of London (the square mile, not many tourist attractions) just because there are so many tiny side-streets, you can feel the age of the place in your bones. That and walking past the stock exchange with its sign "The Stock Market, founded here blah blah around 1300" or some other ridiculous date.

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

Awful restaurants? (3.66 / 3) (#212)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:05:39 PM EST

I'm afraid that if you think the restaurants in London are awful, well that's just London's way of telling you that you're poor.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]
2000 years!?!? (5.00 / 2) (#174)
by Rand Race on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:00:34 AM EST

England: Land of the Angles. 2000 years ago the land of the Angle tribes was in what is now called Denmark.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Romans, London. (4.00 / 4) (#178)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:09:19 AM EST

Populated, you twat.

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

Cherokees, Cha'haka Nu'qua (5.00 / 2) (#188)
by Rand Race on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:25:41 AM EST

So the fuck what? There's been settlements where my city is for well over 2000 years too.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Yeah (3.00 / 2) (#189)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:28:02 AM EST

but if you had your way every indian, sorry, native USian would have been shot right now. You can tell this is the case by your natural aversion to any form of culture, foreign or not.

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

Culture? (3.66 / 3) (#211)
by Rand Race on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:01:48 PM EST

Wait a second, an englishman telling me about culture? Go put some bluejeans on, grab a Big Mac from your local Mickey D's, listen to some Rock and Roll, watch a Hollywood movie and shut the hell up before you sound any more ignorant.

English culture. What a fucking joke. Try that when their's a fish and chNext you'll be telling me you limeys can cook.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Yes, I'm telling you about culture (3.66 / 3) (#216)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:12:10 PM EST

whereas you are informing me with regards to your ignorance.

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

You haven't told me shit (4.00 / 4) (#286)
by Rand Race on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:06:56 PM EST

Where is this culture of yours? What, exactly, is the british musical form that is popular world wide? What piece of clothing do you produce that is actually used as currency in some parts of the world due to it's popularity? Where is my local british fast food joint?

200 years ago you were the shit, everyone aped british culture. But your day is done. Keep maintaining your superiority and we'll keep laughing all the way to the bank with the receits from our movies, music, food, and clothing that you continue to consume.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Just cause I am bored (none / 0) (#503)
by Mashx on Mon May 06, 2002 at 12:52:28 PM EST

Music: Drum and Bass, Electronic Music of all forms.

Piece of Clothing: Manchester United Football Shirt (unfortunately)

Local British Fast Food Joint: Why would they want one? Fast Food is Shit.

British Culture is 2000 years old, and continues. There is nothing superior about saying that. It's a fact.
Woodside!
[ Parent ]

Techno and Electronica (none / 0) (#505)
by KilljoyAZ on Mon May 06, 2002 at 04:45:54 PM EST

aka this decade's answer to disco. Blecch.

===
Creativitiy cannot be SPELT by over 98% of all American troops. - psychologist
[ Parent ]
Bleech (none / 0) (#546)
by Mashx on Tue May 14, 2002 at 10:41:17 AM EST

Like Rock is the sixties answer to Blues. And that dead horse is still being flogged forty years later.
Woodside!
[ Parent ]
Mmmm (none / 0) (#515)
by Rand Race on Tue May 07, 2002 at 09:37:01 AM EST

Good point about the Man U kit. But concerning food, like I said earlier: it doesn't matter if you don't like fast food, hell I don't, the point is that McDonalds and Coca-Cola are everywhere.

So, how do you figure electronic music is British in origin? Leon Theremin was Russian, Robert Moog an American. And while the Beatles experimented with electronics on their later albums, the Beach Boys were doing so too at around the same time. As for electronica, I'd lay (or blame ;) it's invention at the feet of the Germans: Kraftwerk, Cluster, Can, etc. But I admit I'm not a huge fan of the genre - unless you count Devo - so I may well be missing info on early brit electronica.

And if British culture is 2000 years old, so is American culture. Neither of us sprung Athena-like, full grown from the head of God... as it were. In fact I'd date the origin of our culture (western, that is) to circa 900BCE and the writing of the Illiad. But the move to America definately had a massive effect on our local culture just as the invasion of French speaking Normans did on English culture 900 years ago.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Never in the field of (none / 0) (#547)
by Mashx on Tue May 14, 2002 at 11:07:12 AM EST

For food: I agree that Mc-Ds and Coke are everywhere, but my answer was specific to fast food, and that I stand by. I'm pleased that the lowest form of food for the British (this is in some moody territory here, I know:) is probably a chain called Harvester or Beefeater.  They are basically  fun-for-all-the-family pub chains that are more primarily restaurants.  They are successful, and the British culture of hostelry is contained in a watered down form. Pleased because they are so much better than Mc-Ds culture-wise. Not sure food wise, but definitely culture wise.  But then I forgot Wimpy, but let's not go there...

I don't lay claim to the British inventing Electronic Music, but they certainly invented the culture surrounding it. Tangerine Dream, Brian Eno, Kraftwerk are all early examples, along with your two as well, but they had a very narrow following.  Perhaps Vangellis and Jean Michel Jarre had a wider appeal as well, but not until the British took what had been created within Detroit and Chicago, played in Ibiza by Alfredo, twisted it into Acid House, and started pumping it out at 100K into fields and warehouses around London Leeds and Manchester, and on Wigan Pier, Hasitings Pier etc did it take off, and that is because of the British Culture of Electronic Music. Look at the biggest names (not necessarily the best) in Electronic Music today in the States and you will see Fatboy Slim, Chemical Brothers, Paul Oakenfold, Sasha etc: all British. It is a Global thang (Said Mr Hype) but where does everyone look for the new directions? Britain.  For me American music culture is about Country and Western. And Rap.  Oh and Disco was invented in the States as well, wasn't it?

I think in some way we could take the age of culture all sorts of ways, but British culture has been evolving individually for around 2000 years.  It has had influences, whether from the Angles, Saxons, Danes, Vikings, Normans, who took over a large part of the culture, but that was the last time it really was influenced on a massive scale, so lets say since 1066: nearly 950 years.  Now, lets look at the US: individually it has been evolving for what 400 years? And the real split came just about 200 years ago?

American culture does influence the world, and most certainly in the areas of film, clothing and fast food. But has Britain ever influenced these globally? I will laugh if you said yes to food! :)  Britain has a great influence for the size it is.  

But I think Tombuck was talking about the refinement of culture, rather than just what is the influence. The American culture does influence the world, but it is only starting to take shape: For example, I would say that the film Amelie is part of a defined culture, for which Ace Ventura Pet Detective could never even be considered.  But there is The Godfather, Age of Innocence, Usual Suspects....  Now they are part of the refined culture of the States.
Woodside!
[ Parent ]

Culture (3.66 / 3) (#229)
by Cloaked User on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:24:04 PM EST

Man, that's Mackey D's, or more appropriately Muckey D's, but definitely not "Mickey" D's...

Besides which, I wouldn't be seen dead in one, or a pair of blue jeans, and I don't listen to rock and roll.

You want to talk culture? Come back when you have someone to rival Shakespeare, Mitlon, Keats, Byron, Shelly... And no, Elvis doesn't count.


--
"What the fuck do you mean 'Are you inspired to come to work'? Of course I'm not 'inspired'. It's a job for God's sake! The money's enough and the work's not so crap that I leave."
[ Parent ]
Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#246)
by yicky yacky on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:09:48 PM EST

'Mitlon' was a motherfucker!


Yicky Yacky
***********
"You f*cking newbie. Shut up and sit in the corner!" - JCB
[ Parent ]
As I once overheard (5.00 / 3) (#274)
by Rand Race on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:41:46 PM EST

"English literature in the 20th century... there is none."

Come back when you have someone to rival Fitzgerald, Sallinger, and Hemingway in this past century. And no, Joyce was Irish.

And why doesn't Elvis count? Because non-english speakers know who he is? You don't even realize that it's this sort of elitist attitude that makes our culture so much more popular around the world than your euro-trash pap. Quality is purely subjective, popularity is quantifieable, packagable, and - what we really do best - saleable.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Well, ok. (5.00 / 6) (#308)
by trhurler on Fri May 03, 2002 at 04:25:05 PM EST

If you're going to pick Shakespeare, then I'll pick Mark Twain, aka Samuel Clemons. You can call him lowbrow and whatever else; so was Shakespeare. The truth is, the only reason Shakespeare is so popular today is that most of the snobs who watch and read his plays have no idea what the hell he was saying half the time, and don't understand that they're reading/listening to one dick joke after another. By comparison, Samuel Clemons, aka Mark Twain, was an upper crust genius.

All I have to say is, if you're going to tout Shakespeare, don't mock Hollywood, because Hollywood is where Shakespeare would be today, if he actually had the talent:)

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
This is going to sound awkward. (3.00 / 2) (#487)
by valeko on Sun May 05, 2002 at 07:48:18 PM EST

Although no doubt you hear it all around...

But I agree with you completely on that one, trhurler.


"Hey, what's sanity got going for it anyways?" -- infinitera, on matters of the heart
[ Parent ]

s/clemons/clemens (none / 0) (#516)
by infinitera on Tue May 07, 2002 at 12:20:37 PM EST

It might interest you to know that Mr. Clemens was against private property.

[ Parent ]
Budweiser ? (4.00 / 6) (#104)
by deefer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:34:57 AM EST

Are you fucking *mad*?

I would rather drink my own piss than Budweiser. And my piss has probably got a higher amount of alcohol in it, too...


Kill the baddies.
Get the girl.
And save the entire planet.

[ Parent ]

War (4.71 / 7) (#67)
by Rand Race on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:41:40 AM EST

We've never been at "war" with Vietnam either. We have had our little conflicts with both Vietnam and France. Come to think of it, the French dropping that particular hot potato into our laps could be another reason for our distaste for the French.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson

Oh yeah (5.00 / 3) (#69)
by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:44:01 AM EST

It was a 'police action' in Vietnam wasn't it. And this quasi war seems to be a fairly severe trade war...

[ Parent ]
very strange view of Vietnam (3.83 / 6) (#74)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:50:08 AM EST

The French did not "drop that hot potato into your laps". They left Vietnam in the hands of a Nationalist government. The USians decided, more or less unilaterally, that they didn't like that nationalist government, with the result that Ho Chi Minh (who started out as a lover of the Americans and hater of the French; the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence is modelled explicitly on the American one) was pushed into the embrace of the USSR as the only people who would protect his fledgling state against the Chinese. Then the USians got really worried and erected a puppet government which was mainly made up of the local contacts of Corsican heroin smuggling gangs, and the rest is history. Vietnam was a war which did not need to happen.

This analysis, btw, comes directly from Richard Nixon's excellent book "No More Vietnams".

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

ohh man im laughing - from nixons book ? (4.80 / 5) (#113)
by eviltwin on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:48:50 AM EST

They left Vietnam in the hands of a Nationalist government.
Lol yeah right - a nationalist government in one half of the country and a puppet government in the other.
The USians decided, more or less unilaterally, that they didn't like that nationalist government, with the result that Ho Chi Minh (who started out as a lover of the Americans and hater of the French; the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence is modelled explicitly on the American one) was pushed into the embrace of the USSR as the only people who would protect his fledgling state against the Chinese.
The americans stabbed the vietnamese in the back - the declaration came in 1946 - the americans changed from not supporting france's re claiming indochina to providing the ships and planes to them - then they turned around after the french got kicked out and put a puppet in place to run the counry. Ngo Diem was hated by most of vietnam - they provided advisors in the country starting in 1950's whilst the Korean War was on and then esclated it becuase of the fear of the chinese and russian influence (the experience in Korea had a profound effect on US thinkins about communist expansion) then they manipulated their way into war by forcing the Gulf of Tonkin incident
Then the USians got really worried and erected a puppet government which was mainly made up of the local contacts of Corsican heroin smuggling gangs, and the rest is history.
The corsican smuggling gangs is hilarious - only nixon's book makes the claim and it's a joke - Ngo Diem was put in place because he was corrupitble and already in the pay of the CIA. The complexities behind this are much much more than a flippant comment like that makes it sound

Vietnam was going to happen - wars never *need* to happen but they do - Vietnam was a massive mess and the Americans had no right to be inbvolved but it was a mess the french helped make thru their rape of the country, forced implementation of french political and legal systems, forced french landholdings (turning vietnamese into tenants and workers on their own land etc) the US walked into a mess not of their creating and proceeded to fuck it up even more.

Nixons book is lambasted by pretty much every historian of the period - he's a man who could'nt lie straight in bed -you want some real history try these books

Street Without Joy - Bernard Fall (a good look at what the vietnamese conflict with france was like - the us proceeded to make the same mistakes)

A Bright and Shining Lie - John Paul Vann and Neil Sheehan (considered one of the definitve books on vietnam written by a decorated soldier and a journalist who spent the entire war in country)

American Tragedy : Kennedy, Johnson, and the Origins of the Vietnam War - David E. Kaiser (a comprehensive look at the facts behind the causes of the war)

There are hundreds more - i alone have about 50 books on the subject - the nixon one is a laugh beyond all - he came into power in 68 when the tet offensive had escalated the war into an unstopable machine and he made no major efforts to slow it down until 1970 when he started pulling the troops out.

All generalisations are false, including this one.
[ Parent ]

I disagree (4.75 / 4) (#126)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:01:56 AM EST

I always had a soft spot for Nixon, particularly because he would find it hard to fit into even the extreme left wing of today's Democratic Party. I've read all the books you cite, plus Frank Snepp's "Decent Interval", and I think Nixon's book stands on its merits. I disagree with you as to whether other historians have anything like the negative view you suggest; the recent biography of Ho Chi Minh cites it on a number of areas.

And the connection between Diem and the Corsican milieu is not even controversial; Sherman's "The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia" details it exhaustively.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

Sherman does say that, true (5.00 / 2) (#134)
by eviltwin on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:08:42 AM EST

He makes a point that diem had links to the corsicans and also other gangs but not that he was linked primarily to them - the south vietnamese government was corrupt to the core and basically lining their own pockets - the nixon book is the only other one i can recall that makes the claim but there may be others so i conceed the point - i just found it a gross over simplification.

I dislike nixon but im not american so i can only comment on the history - i simply found his book biased and innacurate - but it's also a personal thing - There has been a revisionist attmept to re habilitate nixons image since his death - it hasn't worked as well as people might like - i think he was a flawed man and a flawed president but he inherited the Vietnam war already in full swing - he also however made no attempt until 2 and a bit years into his presidency (timeframe is from memory) to stop the war and even then it dragged on past his resignation.

but man hell nice comment and intelligent thought - lately im finding it hard to find people on here who look beyond flames - thank you for responding to me - you deserve a 5 for the comment alone.

All generalisations are false, including this one.
[ Parent ]

how civilised (5.00 / 4) (#140)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:15:03 AM EST

Since eviltwin has disarmed me by being so nice, I'll be the one to point out that the substantive point of his original post was spot on; my assertion that the French left Vietnam as a stable nationalist state is completely untrue and is a pretty unforgivable attempt to bait any passing Americans. I still think that the Yanks screwed up royally by supporting the weak puppet state in Saigon, thus allowing Ho to fall into the hands of Russia, but it was the fault of the French that this state existed in the first place. Well done to eviltwin for noticing.

An interesting, tangentially related factoid is that before picking the pseudonym "Ho Chi Minh", Ho worked under an alias which translated as "Nguyen Who Hates The French".

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

Oh god yes (5.00 / 2) (#143)
by eviltwin on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:17:56 AM EST

I agree with that one - the US should never have supported the french re conquest - not after the vietnamese fought the japanses for so long - what a mistake - cost approx 60'000 lives from memory.

All generalisations are false, including this one.
[ Parent ]
You say potato... (5.00 / 4) (#138)
by Rand Race on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:13:48 AM EST

It's all perception. What you posit is likely close to the truth. What the average American sees, however, is yet another example of surrender-monkeyism on the French's part immediately followed by our going in to the area to 'set things right'... again.

That is if the average American is even aware of the French Indochina war. I can't remember his name, but in Neil Sheehan's A Bright And Shining Lie he related the tale of an American general in Vietnam who had never heard of Dien Bien Phu.


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Jerry Lewis (4.36 / 11) (#68)
by Bad Harmony on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:42:40 AM EST

Any country that worships Jerry Lewis is not to be trusted.

The French have elevated rudeness to an art.

Losing to the Germans is one thing. Collaborating with them is unforgivable. The Vichy government, and the French police, were more than willing to follow the German example of marginalizing, persecuting, arresting and deporting the Jews. To add insult to injury, a fog of collective amnesia descended on the country after the war.

54º40' or Fight!

Rudeness as an art? (4.55 / 9) (#70)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:45:41 AM EST

The French have elevated rudeness to an art

While the Americans, on the other hand, have turned it into a mass market commodity.

vive la difference ...

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

Not just the French, though (5.00 / 2) (#117)
by Sir Rastus Bear on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:53:03 AM EST

Vichy government, and the French police, were more than willing to follow the German example

You can say this about almost every European nation occupied by the Nazis. Fascism wasn't solely a German disease. Substantial numbers of people were sympathetic to the Nazi movement (including a lot of Americans), and in occupied Europe many were active in Fascist organizations. The article makes this point as well.

It wasn't until after the war, of course, that everyone was suddenly a freedom fighter. Mirable!


"It's the dog's fault, but she irrationally yells at me that I shouldn't use the wood chipper when I'm drunk."
[ Parent ]

that's Jerry [not Lee] Lewis (5.00 / 1) (#352)
by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:19:56 AM EST

To add insult to injury, a fog of collective amnesia descended on the country after the war.
Not before they lynched all the "collabos" they could find, though.

[ Parent ]
Don't forget Canadians... (3.85 / 14) (#77)
by Trollificus on Fri May 03, 2002 at 08:57:51 AM EST

...we hate the French just as much as anyone else.
We have even more reason to hate them, since they're mooching off our country. That peg-legged, cock-sucking traitor Bouchard would have been shot by a firing squad 100 years ago for the shit he's trying to pull now.
The separatist movement is an insult to our Country. What, the first referendum failed? Throw one every few years until you get the vote you're looking for! Asshole.
Quebec won't survive a year as an independent nation. They can't even manage to speak a unified language. The French changes from city to city, from one bastardized version to another. One end of town doesn't know what the other end is talking about half the time.
And considering that quebec holds a nice chunk of our national debt, I doubt they'll be going anywhere anytime soon. They owe us too much.

"The separation of church and state is a fiction. The nation is the kingdom of God, period."
--Bishop Harold Calvin Ray of West Palm Beach, FL

Re: Troll (4.00 / 3) (#136)
by mathematician on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:11:38 AM EST

How about learning the language and visiting the province instead of making such a public display of your own stupidity?

[ Parent ]
I've done both, actually... (5.00 / 1) (#259)
by Trollificus on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:37:34 PM EST

...so I'm entitled to speak my opinion. And from experience, no less.
What's you're excuse for being such an outspoken moron?

The province is a shithole until you reach Old Quebec City, which is absolutely beautiful in it's own rite.

"The separation of church and state is a fiction. The nation is the kingdom of God, period."
--Bishop Harold Calvin Ray of West Palm Beach, FL
[ Parent ]

Oh, them again. (5.00 / 3) (#154)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:35:09 AM EST

Living next to Canada is like having an annoying little brother following you around saying "I can do that too, you know!"

Next thing you know, they'll be claiming they have better health care, hockey and beer than us.

Warning: This has been a joke. It was not a serious rant. Well, maybe it was, sort of. As serious as I get, anyway. What was I saying? Somebody hand me a Molson.


--
America:
Taunting the French for over 200 years!


[ Parent ]
Jeez... (5.00 / 1) (#296)
by beergut on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:26:00 PM EST

Why not kill two frogs with one stone, then?

Eject Quebec from CanaDUH, and both will be better off. Then, once all the frogs in Quebec have keeled over, re-occupy it and call it something more suitable.

i don't see any nanorobots or jet engines or laser holography or orbiting death satellites.
i just see some orangutan throwing code-feces at a computer screen.

-- indubitable
[ Parent ]

Don't touch my province. (5.00 / 1) (#338)
by Hillman on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:56:26 PM EST

Reading your comment, i guess you never really lived in Québec. Are you saying that i cannot understand somebody from the Lac St-Jean, if i'm from, say, the eastern Townships? What a load of bull.

Also, there was never a question about separating unilaterally from Canada. We wanted to have an economic partnership with canada while being independant in other ways(culturally, judiciary, etc.). And i don't think that the rest of canada would cope well with the departure of quebec if it would be an unilateral separation, the quebec province contain a big portion of the population of canada. And don't forget that in the last referendum, we voted 49.9999% in favor of separation which means that somebody somewhere is tired to get fucked by Ottawa. And please, drop the queen already. That and the fucking beaver.

[ Parent ]

Stats are misleading (none / 0) (#544)
by tzanger on Sun May 12, 2002 at 09:25:47 AM EST

And i don't think that the rest of canada would cope well with the departure of quebec if it would be an unilateral separation, the quebec province contain a big portion of the population of canada. And don't forget that in the last referendum, we voted 49.9999% in favor of separation which means that somebody somewhere is tired to get fucked by Ottawa.

And you also know that lots of people who didn't want to separate didn't take the referendum seriously, don't you? So what happens when you get a very loud and annoying minority whipping everyone into a frenzy when the other side isn't interested? Yup. 49.9999%. Not to mention all the lies that the Bloc (or was it Parti?) Quebecois was spewing about not taking Quebec's share of the debt, or using the Canadian dollar for currency or any of the bullshit they were spewing? I bet even the hardliners would have not voted for separation if the real scenario were played out before them.

Screwed by Ottawa? How about screwed by Quebec? Two official languages is bullshit. Having to cater to one province because they whine the loudest and our government is too close to the French to begin with is bullshit. Imagine; I'm from Ontario -- what do people from Alberta or BC think about having all the added expense just to pacify a province on the other side of the country?



[ Parent ]
self-defense (4.77 / 22) (#82)
by karb on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:04:26 AM EST

I think some americans started making fun of the french once they figured out that most europeans seem to hate us, especially the french.

You have to realize that the default state of americans feelings on international affairs is "I don't care". Only by constant badgering and harassment could that be changed to "france kind of sucks."

Plus, I don't know where you're getting your facts from, but I think 90% of the americans, when asked of their opinions about france, would say "I don't care." In fact, I'm actually wondering if I'm being suckered by commenting.

And, there's never an excuse to be rude.
--
Who is the geek who would risk his neck for his brother geek?

Well said. (5.00 / 3) (#108)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:38:55 AM EST

[EOM]

--
Uhhh.... Where did I drop that clue?
I know I had one just a minute ago!


[ Parent ]
Why do we hate the french? (2.94 / 18) (#85)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:09:53 AM EST

Gee, could it be because they are a bunch of leftist snobs who sneer at our culture, our work ethic and our politics while eating our food, wearing our clothes, watching our movies, mooching our technology and depending on us for their self-defense?


--
Uhhh.... Where did I drop that clue?
I know I had one just a minute ago!


Can't you say... (4.75 / 4) (#86)
by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:11:09 AM EST

That about the whole of the world. Why single out the french in particular?

[ Parent ]
Focus, my dear nobby (5.00 / 6) (#94)
by georgeha on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:28:54 AM EST

You can't hate the whole world at once, you need to start somewhere, and then move on.

[ Parent ]
Nah. (5.00 / 3) (#105)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:36:35 AM EST

Like most things, We Americans have industrialized hate. These days, we can hate thousands of things an hour!

Of course, there are those old fashioned types who prefer hand-crafted custom-made hate over the bland mass-media produced sort. To them I can only say...

Nee!


--
Uhhh.... Where did I drop that clue?
I know I had one just a minute ago!


[ Parent ]
Hate (4.66 / 3) (#223)
by Bad Harmony on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:19:59 PM EST

USian hate is low grade stuff.

I knew a Hungarian who had left Hungary, in a hurry, after the revolt in the 1950s. If you asked him about some issue involving Russia, he would turn bright red and start shouting. I had a friend from Turkey who exhibited a similar response when discussing Greece.

54º40' or Fight!
[ Parent ]

Dammit! (5.00 / 2) (#230)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:25:03 PM EST

I hate it when people go running down US hate! Why I oughta....

Hey, look! The Simpsons are on television! What was I saying?


--
America:
Taunting the French for over 200 years!


[ Parent ]
Your kidding right? (4.00 / 8) (#97)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:29:37 AM EST

There have been anti-US elements throughout Europe but the governments throughout Europe knew who was keeping them from learning Russian - except the French, who pulled out of NATO to show just how incapable they are of actually learning from their mistakes.

Only the French go out of their way to oppose the US internationally - for the sole purpose (as far as we can tell) of showing the folks back home what hard cases they are.

Only the French made a national hero out of someone for vandalizing a McDonalds - a McDonalds that WOULDN'T BE THERE IF THE FRENCH WEREN'T EATING THE FOOD.

Only the French have declared that not attending an amusement park is actually a mark of national pride.

Only the French have committees dedicated to ensuring the "purity" of their language and culture and invent five word phrases to avoid saying "RAM" or "CPU".

In other words, the French kick the US in the nuts every chance they get - and for no useful purpose - and you wonder why we hate them? We don't hate them. We sneer at them. Mock them. Make jokes like "France still hasn't recovered from killing off all the smart people in 1789." If France ever smartens up and stops acting like spoiled toddler on a sugar high, we'd get along fine.


--
Uhhh.... Where did I drop that clue?
I know I had one just a minute ago!


[ Parent ]
You what? (3.83 / 6) (#102)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:33:38 AM EST

Only the French have committees dedicated to ensuring the "purity" of their language and culture and invent five word phrases to avoid saying "RAM" or "CPU".

So now you're staking your claim to the English language as well?

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

What? (5.00 / 3) (#111)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:46:01 AM EST

At which point did I claim that America owned or invented english?


--
Uhhh.... Where did I drop that clue?
I know I had one just a minute ago!


[ Parent ]
it's called Roshambeau (5.00 / 1) (#357)
by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:52:12 AM EST

And us French like to go first, thank you very much.

[ Parent ]

well... (5.00 / 3) (#112)
by KiTaSuMbA on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:46:17 AM EST

you should be a bit more specific:
"while *paying* to eat our food, wear our clothes, watch our movies, mooch our technology and depending *according to NATO treaties for military trade* on us for their self-defense?"
Once this is clear, let's look at the details:
what costs more (even in france): a luxury restaurant or a burger joint?
What would you rather wear at an official appointment? A pair of Levis jeans or some YSL suit?
Cinema: most ppl do prefer a million $ budget of meaningless explosions but some might rather see a movie a bit more complicated than the good guy kicks the bad guy's ass and bangs that top model with no reason to be there...
Technology, military and other: ever heard of Mirage Raffal? (Still one of the most flexible planes for air combat). Linux Mandrake is french.
French cars have some serious sales AND quality (since Citroen invented the hydraulic suspensions in mid 30s) not to speak of their history of sucesses in the motorsports.
Now, I find this whole discussion stupid and -1ed the story for promoting arrogance (on every side).
There is no Dopaminergic Pepperoni Kabal!
[ Parent ]
I voted +1 FP (5.00 / 2) (#130)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:06:06 AM EST

Because I'm having fun just tweaking people who think most Americans actually care what happens outside our country, let alone take the time to "hate the French".

LoL


--
Uhhh.... Where did I drop that clue?
I know I had one just a minute ago!


[ Parent ]
boo, flame on you! (5.00 / 1) (#356)
by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:45:35 AM EST



[ Parent ]
French cars (none / 0) (#394)
by tjb on Sat May 04, 2002 at 11:06:16 AM EST

French cars have some serious sales AND quality ___________.

I think you left out a word there, like, i dunno, 'problems'.  While the french do very well in motorsports, their mass-production cars are crap (the Italian car companies are very similar in this regard).

A Honda Civic or Volkswagen Jetta or even a Ford Focus (now that US car companies have gotten their act together) are vastly superior to the average Citroen.  After all, the term 'lemon' is just a translation :)

Tim

[ Parent ]

Leftist snobs? (3.00 / 2) (#206)
by dipipanone on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:54:24 AM EST

Would that be why the vote for the National Front just beat that of the socialist party in the French presidential elections?

I mean, I know that news from the rest of the world rarely permeates the US media, but it *was* a pretty big story last week.

--
Suck my .sig
[ Parent ]
There's that Ayatollah thing, the hypocrisy, (4.75 / 12) (#87)
by georgeha on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:18:00 AM EST

Let's not forget the French tendency to lay out the welcome mat for just about any non-Algerian terrorist group/refugee, the Ayatollah Khomeni was an example in the 1970's of a "terrorist" who would rail against Americans with little sign of censure by the French government. Granted, it's their country, speech should be free, but many Americans would get upset that his anti-American platform was so visible.

Plus, the hypocrisy, that old saw about Liberty, Equality and Brotherhood only extends to non-Greenpeace Europeans, Algerians need not apply (the poetic justice is that France will become the first European country with an Islamic majority in a generation or two).

Then there's the smugness, of which many European's indulge in. American's are spoiled children because they don't have 2000 years of civilization behind them, conveniently ignoring the European background of many Americans. So, we don't have 2000 year old Roman ruins, big deal.

Personally, I don't hate the French, I even have a good friend who is half French, and would love to visit France. In fact, compared to England, I prefer French cooking, wine and mores (England gets the points on ale, though).

Hardly innocent of that yourselves (5.00 / 6) (#129)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:05:14 AM EST

Let's not forget the French tendency to lay out the welcome mat for just about any non-Algerian terrorist group/refugee, the Ayatollah Khomeni was an example in the 1970's of a "terrorist" who would rail against Americans with little sign of censure by the French government.

**cough** NORAID ** cough**

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

Yer right, I forgot about the huge French-Iranian (5.00 / 3) (#139)
by georgeha on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:13:56 AM EST

population, what is it, 30% of the population of Marseille is descended from Iranians?

If we start assuming Joe Sixpack American is capable of introspection, the whole flawed argument falls apart.

[ Parent ]

Geez (5.00 / 1) (#165)
by Assume on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:51:49 AM EST

Iranian = 100% Terrorists? Interesting Equation you've got there.

I'm ... just a man. Only a man.


[ Parent ]
You missed the point (5.00 / 1) (#169)
by georgeha on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:55:36 AM EST

I said that France lays out the welcome mat for third world terrorist. streetlawyer said pot.kettle.black, referring to Irish-American's funding the IRA through NORAID. I implied there was a difference between an emigrated ethnic group funding terrorists in the old country (Irish-Americans) and a policy of welcoming any old terrorist group you can think of, despite having no cultural ties to them. Stating Marseille was 30% Iranian was sarcasm, whereas Boston is probably 30% Irish-American.

[ Parent ]
not so far-fetched (5.00 / 1) (#225)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:20:16 PM EST

The Ayatollah was a representative of generalised Islamism rather than Iranian revolution for most of the 1970s, and 30% Muslim is not necessarily a bad estimate.

In any case, I don't see why the Irish should be given a free pass on this one; it's a pretty weak excuse for funding terrorism.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

The Ayatollah and the late Shah (5.00 / 4) (#266)
by Apuleius on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:17:57 PM EST

Whenever one was in Iran, the other was in Paris. The idiots really should have rented a timeshare.


There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. (The South Park chef)
[ Parent ]
lol (5.00 / 1) (#348)
by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:03:08 AM EST

A timeshare could also come in handy to Yasser if Ariel refuses to let him back in...Jacques probably just knows the place...

[ Parent ]

Uhm (2.50 / 2) (#443)
by Jacques Chester on Sun May 05, 2002 at 12:28:01 AM EST

No ... no, I don't. :)

--
In a world where an Idea can get you killed, Thinking is the most dangerous act of all.
[ Parent ]
first with an islamic majority? (none / 0) (#435)
by delmoi on Sat May 04, 2002 at 10:14:04 PM EST

what about spain?
--
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
[ Parent ]
language barrier (4.55 / 9) (#89)
by bosk on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:23:01 AM EST

It might have to do with the fact that English and French are mutually exclusive languages, if you speak one you can't speak the other.  Unlike some countries, like my adopted country of Germany, the Americans at least pronounce the French words in the English language with a proper American accent, for example restaurant and journalist.

Of course, if you're British, you speak English and only English but pretend that some day you might learn a real language like French by naming things "Bureau de Change" when "Money Exchange" will do perfectly well.

We dare to hate the French because .... (3.76 / 13) (#91)
by pyramid termite on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:25:58 AM EST

... they have more atrocious spelling then we do. ... they eat disgusting things like fungi, frogs and snails and think we're barbarians for preferring food that didn't slither somewhere. ... they erected a bunch of scaffolding, called it the Eiffel Tower, and refused to actually build anything with it. ... our maddest lunatics all prefer to believe they are France's greatest leader. That ought to tell you something. ... pissoirs, bidets and no deoderant. Ick. ... they deconstruct more than they ever build. ... they take Jerry Lewis seriously. ... lawyers are always using French words when they talk. That's reason enough right there. ... they make fur cups and pictures of pipes and call it art and yet they think we're decadent. ... Great writers such as James Joyce, William S Burroughs, Gertrude Stein and Samuel Beckett descended into utter nonsense once they moved to France. Hemingway avoided it only by being drunk all the time. ... Fashion. All those years of pretentious clothing and they've yet to come up with anything as true and essential as the Wet T-shirt. ... Name one good French rock and roll band. Guess what? You can't. ... Name one good French beer. ... If wine's so bloody great, why is every bum on skid row drinking it? ... I would go on, but a post of any greater length would be better spent on a more deserving country, such as Botswana or San Marino.
On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
I love quizzes (5.00 / 3) (#96)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:29:06 AM EST

Good French rock'n'roll band -- Air

Good French beer -- Kronenbourg.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]

J'accuse! (5.00 / 3) (#99)
by tombuck on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:31:34 AM EST

Putain

--
Give me yer cash!
[ Parent ]

Bordel de merde! (5.00 / 2) (#103)
by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:34:44 AM EST

Qu'est-ce que c'est ses conneries? I promise I never saw your post, but it proves that great minds think alike.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
[ Parent ]
Ewwww! (4.75 / 4) (#142)
by deefer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:15:48 AM EST

I never saw your post, but it proves that great minds think alike.

streetlayer and tombuck talking the language of love in an online circlejerk!

Grief, the times they are a-changin'...


Kill the baddies.
Get the girl.
And save the entire planet.

[ Parent ]

ces, not ses (5.00 / 1) (#366)
by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 03:52:48 AM EST

Perhaps with an extra que in front.

You're welcome ;-)

[ Parent ]

Pshh. (5.00 / 2) (#204)
by dipipanone on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:49:30 AM EST

Good French rock'n'roll band

...is a contradiction in terms.

Bring back Johnny Halliday!

--
Suck my .sig
[ Parent ]
Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#298)
by trhurler on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:30:24 PM EST

Air?! Please. I bet if I said "name a great singer" you'd say Barry Manilow. Rock and roll? My ass.

As for Kronenbourg, I guess if you like the malt urine style of beer, good for you. I myself prefer beers with actual flavor, but I realize a great many people who drink beer basically want Budweiser, but drink something else for snobbery or anticorporate or anti-US reasons:)

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
You make me sad. (4.50 / 4) (#98)
by Parrot Fish on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:30:32 AM EST

Use the <P> tag like a good American!

[ Parent ]
about Jerry Lewis (4.50 / 2) (#201)
by demi on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:45:48 AM EST

apparently the popularity was due to the voice actor they used to overdub his voice. Once that voice actor died, and they tried to replace him, the popularity was never the same.

They seem to love Woody Allen and Michael Jackson, however...



[ Parent ]

Fungi? (none / 0) (#402)
by General Wesc on Sat May 04, 2002 at 12:37:27 PM EST

...they eat disgusting things like fungi...
Wait, are you suggesting that Americans never eat mushrooms?

--
General Wesc
[ Parent ]
Spelling? (5.00 / 1) (#415)
by Estanislao Martínez on Sat May 04, 2002 at 03:24:36 PM EST

they have more atrocious spelling then we do

Do they, really? Think about it.

--em
[ Parent ]

Tori Spelling doesn't count (nt) (none / 0) (#418)
by pyramid termite on Sat May 04, 2002 at 05:52:58 PM EST


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
[ Parent ]
Scaffolding (none / 0) (#513)
by katie on Tue May 07, 2002 at 07:37:48 AM EST

"they erected a bunch of scaffolding, called it the Eiffel Tower"

It could be worse. It could have been an ornamental tent instead..


[ Parent ]

Hating the French: an explanation (4.76 / 21) (#92)
by maroberts on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:26:16 AM EST

The US habit of hating the French is inherited from your British ancestors.

The British have rarely liked the French through about 1000 years of history, starting from when the Normans invaded us, to when the British owned half of France and delighted in sticking arrows in French knights. We got their patron saint (Joan of Arc) burned at the stake, and at various times since then we've been at war with them for one reason or another up to Napoleon. After that we teamed up with them, but only because we hate the Germans worse than the French.

Moving on to more recent history, the French have stuffed the UK on a number of occassions, including:

  • surrendering to Germany in WW2, with Vichy France assisting them later,
  • De Gaulle telling us we couldn't join the EU [he was right, but we won't stop that from giving us another reason to despise them].
  • Not being a full member of Nato
Now the French have this cunning plan to remove refugees and asylum seekers from their country by putting them in a big camp at the mouth of the Channel Tunnel and then hinting to the refugees that life is much better on the other side of the Channel.

Anyway, we the British, have taken the opportunity of our special relationship with the US to let it quietly be known that these garlic frog eating people are not to be trusted, and should be treated accordingly. The US has taken one look at the weird toilets the French use and agreed entirely.
~~~
The greatest trick the Devil pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist -- Verbil Kint, The Usual Suspects

And another thing.... (3.50 / 2) (#166)
by shippo on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:52:25 AM EST

There the only ones to be better than us at football and rugby union. Even the Australians can't claim that.

[ Parent ]
Oi! (2.00 / 1) (#393)
by _cbj on Sat May 04, 2002 at 10:33:22 AM EST

England has a dodgy froggy history, the rest of us have been much friendlier. Bloody hooligans.

[ Parent ]
The Normans made Britain (none / 0) (#441)
by Jacques Chester on Sun May 05, 2002 at 12:25:45 AM EST

The British have rarely liked the French through about 1000 years of history, starting from when the Normans invaded us
Britain has always been the mongrel nation of Europe, and English is the mongrel language. But the Normans basically made England, inasmuch as William the Conqueror created the first effective centralised administarion and system of law. Admittedly most of the nobles spoke Norman French for a while, but in doing so they expanded the English language.

For example, few other languages distinguish between food in the field and on the table. In English one can say "Cow, Chicken, Sheep", or one can say "Beef, Poultry, Mutton". The first three were commoner English, norse-derived and spoken in the fields. The latter were noble English, french-derived and spoken at the tables of nobility.

--
In a world where an Idea can get you killed, Thinking is the most dangerous act of all.
[ Parent ]

I never said... (none / 0) (#450)
by maroberts on Sun May 05, 2002 at 02:57:32 AM EST

...the English dislike of the French had logic to it. Anyway the Normans were Vikings on the lam, so they don't count as real French people.
~~~
The greatest trick the Devil pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist -- Verbil Kint, The Usual Suspects
[ Parent ]
As an australian (4.00 / 11) (#93)
by eviltwin on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:27:36 AM EST

I don't get it ?  i mean everyone dislikes the french a little bit but hate ? come on.

And some things in your article need adjustment
Everyone in Europe surrendered to and/or collaborated with the Germans during second world war bar the Brits and Russians. So that's a charge you can lay against Italians, Belgians, Swedes etc. So why single the French out.

Umm be carefull - the Italians never surrendered to the germans - the belgians surrendered to avoid a repeat of 1914 (when the british and the french basically ignored their treaties and let belgium get raped by the german army), the swedes were neutral and all the other countries surrendered after being occupied (except poland -they surrendered after being almost wiped out and stabbed in the back by russia and britain at the same time - Treaties *what* treaties ?) The french collaborated heavily unfortunately the rest didn't - but i agree it's irrational to count the french alone.  Btw most of the occupied countries never surrendered they had governments in exile

USian tourists deserve to be insulted and not spoken to English.

Thats the french attitude i know and love so much - no one deserves the service the french give to people - i worked and travelled extensively in france and the rest of europe and the rudeness of the french was without parrallel - the worst in the world
.
France more or less does what the US wants in most important matters.

Oh yeah - except trade treaties, military defence matters, nuclear weapons testing etc

This is a hard road you've chosen to plow here - i'd think about some of the comments in here before this hits the queue.

All generalisations are false, including this one.

Learn your history (4.00 / 3) (#199)
by daedal on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:44:54 AM EST

"1914 (when the british and the french basically ignored their treaties and let belgium get raped by the german army),"

This is untrue. The Germans has been relying on Britain ignoring their treaty with Belgium, but the British did not ignore it and officially this is the reason Britain declared war on Germany.

"except poland - they surrendered after being almost wiped out and stabbed in the back by russia and britain at the same time - Treaties *what* treaties ?)

Another fallacy. What happenned after Poland was invaded? Britain and France declared war on Germany. Coincidence? No. True, Britain and France didn't do much immediately, but Poland is after all on the wrong side of Germany. Also, it can be argued that the British delaying of an immediate confrontation was a Good Thing; they needed to build up their armed forces, which were not up to scratch. Second point: Russia also did not betray Poland by invading; the Russians would probably agreed on an alliance against Germany, if Poland had let Russian troops on Polish land.

Don't pretend to know about things which you don't.

[ Parent ]

Correct on the surface (2.66 / 3) (#362)
by eviltwin on Sat May 04, 2002 at 02:22:10 AM EST

Read Tuchmans guns of august - sure the britsh declared war - then failed to send any troops at all to link up or fight with belgian forces.

Once again britain and france ignored treaty obligations after poland was invaded and declared war after poland was vitrually lost - the russians however helped themselves to as much as they could.  The BEF in france was at that time the finest british army with the best equipment availble - most of which was left on dunkirk beaches - they could have had an impact had they been brought into battle before the germans broke out into the open country of france.

Don't pretend - damn im off to return my degree in Modern History right now - must have learned nothing in 4 years despite a major in 20th century european history.

Read a bit more about the facts - the one about russia is laughable if you read what the german and russian foreign offices were saying to each other at the time.

All generalisations are false, including this one.
[ Parent ]

Blergh. (3.50 / 2) (#416)
by daedal on Sat May 04, 2002 at 04:53:46 PM EST

"sure the britsh declared war - then failed to send any troops at all to link up or fight with belgian forces."

If the British had not declared war, then they might not have become involved at all, just as the Germans had hoped and planned.

"ignored treaty obligations after poland was invaded and declared war after poland was vitrually lost"

The Germans attacked Poland on the 31st, Britain and France declared war on the 3rd. They couldn't have done very much in that period, even if they had wanted to.

"the russians however helped themselves to as much as they could."

You mean: took what they had agreed with Germany they would have.

"The BEF in france was at that time the finest british army with the best equipment availble - most of which was left on dunkirk beaches - they could have had an impact had they been brought into battle before the germans broke out into the open country of france."

According to Taylor's "Origins of the Second World War", the British expected to need a bomber force as large as Germany's; "[n]either Great Britain nor France claimed to possess such a force in 1936 or even 1939; hence, in a large part, the timidity of their statesmen." Also, note that "later on the [Allies] [...] had to wait for a superiority of five to one before defeating Germany." Also, before the war,"[t]he British Admiralty [...] aimed at decisive superiority [...] [which] was not attained; but from lack of time, not money." So, the air force and navy were "not up to scratch", just like I said.

"Read a bit more about the facts - the one about russia is laughable if you read what the german and russian foreign offices were saying to each other at the time."

Taylor says, "On 17 April [1939] Litvinov produced his counter-proposal: there should be a pact of mutual assistance between England, France and the Soviet Union". Taylor then continues to say basically what I said, except more accurately. If you want to find out, maybe you could take a turn in reading more. :-)

[ Parent ]

Failed to go... (none / 0) (#512)
by katie on Tue May 07, 2002 at 07:33:41 AM EST

"then failed to send any troops at all to link up or fight with belgian forces."

There is a sort of analysis of British military history that Britain starts every war perfectly equipped and trained to fight the last one. There was no hurry to send soldiers to Belgium, after all it would take months for everyone to finish digging their trenches....

[ Parent ]

Heh, OZian. (3.50 / 2) (#273)
by pyramid termite on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:38:57 PM EST

USian tourists deserve to be insulted and not spoken to English.

Just because you follow that policy in your country doesn't mean the world has to.
On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
[ Parent ]
umm thats from (3.50 / 2) (#361)
by eviltwin on Sat May 04, 2002 at 02:17:44 AM EST

his article ??? not my comment - hello

All generalisations are false, including this one.
[ Parent ]
And another thing. (4.00 / 16) (#100)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:32:15 AM EST

The name is "American" - not "Usian". "Usian" isn't even a word. It's exactly that sort of gratuitious bull shit that pisses us off.

Deal with it.


--
Uhhh.... Where did I drop that clue?
I know I had one just a minute ago!


American offends (3.85 / 7) (#107)
by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:38:09 AM EST

A lot of people who inhabit the rest of continent of America. It looks like your claiming the whole place as your own...

[ Parent ]
And, last time I checked (4.36 / 11) (#110)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:44:15 AM EST

None of them had the word "America" as the last word in their name.


--
Uhhh.... Where did I drop that clue?
I know I had one just a minute ago!


[ Parent ]
He's right, though (3.00 / 3) (#186)
by aphrael on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:23:31 AM EST

it's pretty common for people from what we call Latin America to object to our use of the term 'American'; 'America', in their language, refers to the *entire continent* of north and south america; and for us to appropriate the name 'American' implies that somehow they *aren't* American.

The preferred term in Latin American spanish for people from the 'US' is 'yanqui', which of course is objectionable to a lot of people from the US. :)

[ Parent ]

LoL - Yankee (4.33 / 3) (#196)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:43:35 AM EST

Yankee is a weird word. Everyone in the US thinks it applies to another part of the country. :-P

You go to the south and they say the northerners are yankees. You go north and they say the north *Easterners* are yankees. You go to the Northeast and they say only people from Maine are yankees. You go there and they say, nah, only those guys who actually live....


--
America:
Taunting the French for over 200 years!


[ Parent ]
Anyway, I thought (4.50 / 4) (#200)
by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:44:56 AM EST

I thought y'all referred to us as "those interfering bastards from up north"?


--
America:
Taunting the French for over 200 years!


[ Parent ]
*laugh* (4.33 / 3) (#221)
by aphrael on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:16:03 PM EST

i'm an anglo californian. but thank you. :)

[ Parent ]
Or.... (4.50 / 4) (#245)
by Elkor on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:07:07 PM EST

That we are just referring to ourselves as residents of the continents of America.

If you want to qualify it, call us US Americans.

Regards,
Elkor

"I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
-Margo Eve
[ Parent ]
Last time I checked... (4.71 / 7) (#257)
by Stickerboy on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:32:07 PM EST

...there was no continent "America". There is a South America, and a North America. Calling somebody a South American, or a North American, clearly states that somebody is from that continent.

Calling somebody an "American", clearly gives the meaning that that person is from the United States of America.



[ Parent ]
Surrender (4.25 / 8) (#101)
by hardburn on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:32:48 AM EST

Everyone in Europe surrendered to and/or collaborated with the Germans during second world war . . .

The problem isn't surrender. It's that they spent their entire military budget on the Imaginary Line and the Nazis just walked around it.

Doesn't arselick the US in the same way as their near neighbour and tries to follow an independent line in foreign policy

That is probably the biggest reason.

IIRC, despite previously good relations, the US almost went to war with France in the early 19th century. So this early good relations isn't as rosy as it first appears. Also, there is that thing where America decided to take an isolationist stance and not get involved with France's own war of independance.

Helping the French in WWI and liberating France in WWII is basicaly seen as repaying America's previous debt to France. In any case, France had a vested intrest in seeing the American colonies break away; it would mean an important resource is no longer monopolized by the British.


----
while($story = K5::Story->new()) { $story->vote(-1) if($story->section() == $POLITICS); }


Nitpick (4.58 / 12) (#106)
by snacky on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:37:50 AM EST

I am really thrilled with this article, and I'm going to enjoy reading the reaction it brings. But it is a mistake not to categorize the USSR as a collaborator with the Nazis. After the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (itself an act of cooperation with the Nazis), the USSR:
now provided Germany with vast amounts of raw materials - oil, grain, cotton, manganese, chromium. Stalin watched every detail, personally negotiating quite small matters with junior German officials, and having the last word in lifting embargoes on goods especially needed by the Nazis. The Germans were given good credit terms, only being required to pay six months after delivery. They often paid, moreover, later still and with obsolescent or obsolete war materiel. And when the Germans complained of delays and other matters, sometimes even roughly rejecting 'the views of Herr Stalin as unworkable in practice and contrary to the Agreement', Stalin replied, as Adam lam puts it, 'meekly'. The Soviet Union also acted, in effect, as a middleman in the world market, to enable Germany to evade the British blockade.

[...]

Meanwhile, Stalin provided the Nazis, in naval and other matters, with evidence of good will far beyond necessity. 'Base North' for U-boats was established in a bay near Murmansk -- with fuel and repair ships. (It never actually became operational -- the two u-boats on their way to use it were sunk by the Royal Navy, and the German invasion of Norway thereafter made it unnecessary.) The Soviets also escorted the Nazi commerce raider Komet through the Northern Sea Route, and it did a lot of damage to Allied shipping in the Pacific.

A more extraordinary act of Stalin's was to order the sending back to Germany of several hundred German Communists who had been political refugees in the Soviet Union. They were handed over on the bridge at Brest-Litovsk, Gestapo and NKVD officers checking the lists together. Most of them went straight to Nazi concentration camps.

Taken from Stalin: Breaker of Nations by Robert Conquest.

--
I like snacks
+1 for... (3.60 / 10) (#115)
by jij on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:50:25 AM EST

... the great comments.  Otherwise, I would have voted it down.  Who the hell cares about the French, anyway?

Don't call me a USian, though.

"people who thinks quotes are witty are fucking morons" - turmeric

Other possible articles (4.44 / 18) (#116)
by AmberEyes on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:52:36 AM EST

Since we're apparently making grossly over-generalized and libelous articles, we should also ask ourselves the following questions:

  • Why does the black population kill people?

  • Why does the lower-class beat their wives?

  • Why do Jews horde their money?

  • Why do Arabs engage in terrorism?

  • Why does Europe have people with such bad teeth?

  • Why do computer users have such horrible social skills?


  • You work on those, and I'll try and figure out exactly where I said I hate the French.

    -AmberEyes


    "But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
    Cheers (4.00 / 4) (#119)
    by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:55:16 AM EST

    Some great trol^H^H^H^H..story ideas there...

    [ Parent ]
    Re: troll (4.00 / 3) (#120)
    by AmberEyes on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:56:48 AM EST

    I was inspired.

    -AmberEyes


    "But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
    [ Parent ]
    Why does the lower-class beat their wives? (3.50 / 2) (#149)
    by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:27:49 AM EST

    Hey!

    Why are you singling me out again?



    [ Parent ]
    Come on now ... (3.50 / 2) (#275)
    by pyramid termite on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:42:04 PM EST

    ... there are damned few of us perfect people posting to k5. Surely you don't expect us to explain everything that's wrong with the majority of defectives in one day, do you?
    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    potatoes (3.00 / 2) (#354)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:29:25 AM EST

    Have you noticed how everyone who eats potatoes eventually dies? Hmm, I think I'm on to something.

    [ Parent ]

    See (1.00 / 3) (#409)
    by mikael_j on Sat May 04, 2002 at 02:17:13 PM EST

    This is why I don't eat potatoes...

    /Mikael
    We give a bad name to the internet in general. - Rusty
    [ Parent ]
    Quasipalm! (none / 0) (#467)
    by mikael_j on Sun May 05, 2002 at 07:35:48 AM EST

    Why did you give me a zero? Was it because I gave one of your comments a one?

    /Mikael
    We give a bad name to the internet in general. - Rusty
    [ Parent ]
    I hate the French? When did that start? (4.42 / 7) (#125)
    by mongoose on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:01:41 AM EST

    Seriously...all stereotypes aside, I think this idea is largely a myth based on a few anecdotes, just like the much-vaunted French rudeness (every French person I know personally, which granted is only about 25 but still a decent sample, have always failed to be rude. For my part, I've never hated any of them. Well, except for J--, for about fifteen minutes, but that had more to do with a pizza than nationality).

    The groundswell of hatred for all things French that apparently exists in every burg and hamlet in this land...just cannot be found. Not by me, anyway. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?

    I mean, there is the Jerry Lewis thing, but I don't think anyone from a country that kept Married with Children and Springer on the air can honk at the French for liking JL. So I won't. Really, I have always thought that perceptions of American hatred towards the French are a naieve generalization of the sometimes antagonistic attitudes our governments have on a variety of policies. You cannot generalize that way; it doesn't work.

    -m

    one of the most hilarious ploys (4.77 / 18) (#131)
    by demi on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:06:30 AM EST

    ...I've seen in quite a long time. Someone from the UK cooks up a discussion topic to take the piss out of the Yanks and the French simultaneously, absolutely brilliant. Who said British innovation was dead.



    An easier way (4.25 / 4) (#177)
    by AndrewH on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:08:21 AM EST

    Someone from the UK cooks up a discussion topic to take the piss out of the Yanks and the French simultaneously, absolutely brilliant

    In two words: Presidential elections.


    John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr — where are you now that we need you?
    [ Parent ]
    true enough (4.25 / 4) (#202)
    by demi on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:47:40 AM EST

    since the UK doesn't believe in elected leaders.



    [ Parent ]

    Actually ... (3.00 / 2) (#442)
    by Jacques Chester on Sun May 05, 2002 at 12:27:31 AM EST

    They do. Parliament in England can depose the Queen any time it likes. In fact, the Royal Family are royal at the discretion of Parliament, ever since the Glorious Revolution.

    --
    In a world where an Idea can get you killed, Thinking is the most dangerous act of all.
    [ Parent ]
    elected leaders (none / 0) (#511)
    by katie on Tue May 07, 2002 at 07:23:37 AM EST


    That's a scheme that seems to work so well. At least the French can plead that they didn't actually elect the right wing pyschopath candidate...


    [ Parent ]
    I like the French. (4.40 / 10) (#152)
    by IHCOYC on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:32:32 AM EST

    I like the French.

    Most of my favourite authors are French, or Belgians writing in French. Baudelaire and Henri Michaux were French, and so were Flaubert, Jules Supervielle, and J. K. Huysmans. The best North American poets from the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries wrote in French: Stuart Merrill, Emile Nelligan, and Renée Vivien. And all of these folks sound like they'd be more fun to be with than T. S. Eliot or Ezra Pound. Forget Jerry Lewis: the French were the first to give Poe and Lovecraft the respect they deserved.

    Another thing I like about the French is their attempts to preserve their traditional rural ways of life against industrial farming and the McDonalds mentality. If this puts them at odds with the U.S. government, so be it.

    The French mind seems set up to recognise that a people is not its government. All France is not Paris, no more than Washington is the epitome of the United States. If the French are disliked, it seems more because the French government seems the epitome of the sniffish Euroweenies looking down upon the United States. But that isn't their government, or even the sum of their culture.

    This message has been placed here IN MEMORIAM by the Tijuana Bible Society.

    I Like To French, too. (3.50 / 2) (#159)
    by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:43:22 AM EST

    Nothing more satisfying than chopping up a bag of potatos or carrots into long julliene strips!

    Oh, wait - that's not what you meant, is it?


    --
    America:
    Taunting the French for over 200 years!


    [ Parent ]
    Paris (3.50 / 2) (#184)
    by Bad Harmony on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:22:24 AM EST

    All France is not Paris

    I was under the impression that Parisians believe Paris is the center of the universe. The telephone numbering plan seemed to divide the country into Paris and the hinterlands. My French teacher told me that the Parisian accent was considered to be perfect French, and that Quebecers spoke some strange language that had some similarities to French.

    54º40' or Fight!
    [ Parent ]

    Your French teacher was wrong (3.50 / 2) (#209)
    by streetlawyer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:59:44 AM EST

    It's generally accepted, even by Parisians, that the purest French is spoken in the massif central, around Tours.

    --
    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]
    your french teacher was right (3.50 / 2) (#346)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 12:47:40 AM EST

    Well, maybe not 100%. But you're spot on about Paris. The capital is often called "la metropole", to distinguish it from "les provinces" which refer to the rest of the country. Note that the modern word provincial is derived from this. Originally (and to this day to some :-) it meant somebody from outside the capital. In the renaissance, it was also popular to call the outside of Paris "le desert", which tells you a lot about how Louis XIV thought about it ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    Provincal (none / 0) (#445)
    by cpt kangarooski on Sun May 05, 2002 at 12:40:30 AM EST

    I thought that it dated back to the Romans occupying the area they called Provence in Gaul, which to them would've been out in the sticks.

    Damn it -- If only I had an OED handy.

    --
    All my posts including this one are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    [ Parent ]

    provence (none / 0) (#447)
    by martingale on Sun May 05, 2002 at 02:21:39 AM EST

    Provence is out in the sticks however you look at it :-)

    But I think you're right that the word's originally from Latin. Provincia, f or something. Would be nice to have an OED check, anyone (and a Larousse too, for good measure).

    [ Parent ]

    I preffer doggy-style (3.50 / 2) (#187)
    by jabber on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:23:47 AM EST

    But I'll settle for Missionary.
    To French is only but a prelude.

    [TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
    [ Parent ]

    I like the French too (4.00 / 3) (#244)
    by Weezul on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:02:52 PM EST

    I hope the keep their agressive cultural protection policies for a very long time, the food rocks.

    Did you know that French doctors do not keep your medical records in France?  You carry your medical records in your wallet on a little card.

    Did you know that French "copays" are just the diffrence between the subsadie for the care and the price the doctor charges?  This means the French have more or less maintained all the benifits of free market health care, while bringing costs down.  Its incredibly simple too.  They don't provide health care, they subsadies it.

    Did you know that the nations budget is one of the top 10 best selling non-fiction books?  So much for the typical concervative objections to gov. taxing and spending.  The French people know what their government is sending money on and they like it.

    The one really bad think about French policy is the fact that they will sell weapons to anyone.  The U.S. is not quite as bad.  OTOH, the French do sell weapons to people that should have weapons when no one else will sell them weapons, specifically Israel before they were friendly with the U.S.  Heck, the French even gave them nuclear weapons (a decission I definitly support).

    "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini
    [ Parent ]

    Regarding the medical records card (3.50 / 2) (#293)
    by tripwyre on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:17:30 PM EST

    I'm not familiar with the system at all, so please excuse me if this question is stupid, but what would happen to someone if they got roughed up and had their wallet stolen? Seems like a recipe for disaster but, like I said, I'm completly ignorant of the system. Care to explain how the French handle this?

    [ Parent ]
    It would be pretty easy.. (3.50 / 2) (#312)
    by Weezul on Fri May 03, 2002 at 04:58:40 PM EST

    ..to just make a backup.  I know they used to keep little notebooks.  That might be a pain to copy, but you could do it.  Its some kind of smart card these days, so it would be trivial to copy.  Plus, you would only need to copy it once every five years or something.  Losing a pasport or birth certificate would be a bigger deal then losing 5 years of medical records.  Finally, the coolest thing about it is that a doctor who finds you unconsious has access.

    "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini
    [ Parent ]
    France has always been extremely centralized (3.50 / 2) (#303)
    by leviramsey on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:52:07 PM EST

    It goes back to the days of Louis XIV (and maybe even further).

    For instance, historically it's been difficult to take a train from Lyon to Toulouse (both in the south of France) without going through Paris.



    [ Parent ]
    They don't... (4.00 / 12) (#153)
    by DeadBaby on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:32:42 AM EST

    The first thing you have to realize is that Americans don't care about any other country. Do you really think Americans sit home at night and shake their fist in anger and the French? We'll make a joke at your expense, sure, but that's just common sense.

    If anyone in the US really does hate the French, it's becuase they rolled over and helped Hitler commit genocide.
    "Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us." - Carl Sagan

    RE : it's becuase they rolled over and helped (none / 0) (#486)
    by TahitiBob on Sun May 05, 2002 at 07:39:00 PM EST

    If anyone in the US really does hate the French, it's becuase they rolled over and helped Hitler commit genocide.
    As the Americans let them do until they were personnally attacked on Pearl Harbor Raid, 7 December 1941 ...
    The genocide began BEFORE december 1941 : see the US Holocaust Memorial Museum Off course there were a lot of bad people in France, as there were a whole lot of people who didn't care in the US ...

    [ Parent ]
    This is why I read K5!! (4.27 / 11) (#156)
    by Lord Snott on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:37:55 AM EST

    I haven't laughed so much in AGES!

    "Don't call me USian, it pisses me off,"
    Well, DUH!

    Cheers to nobbystyles for generating the most piss-funny thread I've read in years.

    BTW, if Deefer is reading this, YOU ARE MY GOD.
    I can only dream to troll as good as you :)

    .
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    This sig in violation of U.S. trademark
    registration number 2,347,676.
    Bummer :-(

    *blush* (2.66 / 3) (#172)
    by deefer on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:59:23 AM EST




    Kill the baddies.
    Get the girl.
    And save the entire planet.

    [ Parent ]
    There's your new sig (2.66 / 3) (#176)
    by nobbystyles on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:01:45 AM EST

    Know you can be all smug like spiralx ;)

    [ Parent ]
    j'aime la France (4.33 / 9) (#157)
    by demi on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:41:49 AM EST

    Just in case there are real French people reading this, let's remember what nationality makes up 90% of the villians in Hollywood movies. And from what I understand, when blockbusters are sent overseas for screening in various countries we can't find on a map, and the voice tracks are re-dubbed into a new language, all of the character voices are culturally re-calibrated except for the bad guy who still has a British accent.

    In Louisiana, French culture is looked upon favorably, as the ancestors of the Cajuns were brutally expelled from Canada by the English in the 18th century after the treaty of Paris. So in reality, Anglophone Canada is just like another one of those illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank, whose very existence is an insult, persisting only because of the military might of the Redcoats.



    In Canada, French Culture is highly desired (3.50 / 2) (#163)
    by Assume on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:47:42 AM EST

    PS are you trying to imply something about Canada?

    Have you gone to a casino lately?  Hmm.  Sounds like something we have in common.

    I'm ... just a man. Only a man.


    [ Parent ]
    Patriot (none / 0) (#510)
    by katie on Tue May 07, 2002 at 07:14:06 AM EST

    Let's not forget how Hollywood regards Britain, summed up in the excellently distortive "The Patriot". We should each get handwritten apologies for that film.

    That's probably why America's so gung-ho about bombing lumps of the world these days - they know all anyone will end up remembering is the movies of the "war", and in the movies it'll be Britain that did all the collateral damage... deliberately. And why they're so unwilling to go to war without someone else around to blame things on later.

    [ Parent ]

    Minor nit (4.70 / 10) (#164)
    by jabber on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:51:24 AM EST

    The Russians did conspire with the Germans in the early days of the war, in that Hitler and Stalin had an 'understanding' regarding how to divvy up Poland between the two of them. Then, as Hitler's war machine gained momentum, and this 'agreement' became too inconvenient for German ambitions, Hitler turned on his former friend Stalin.

    The latter then went on to conspire with Roosevelt and Churchill at Yalta, regarding the fate of the Eastern European nations other than Russia, while the former went on to freeze his arse off in the Russian Winter at Stalingrad. This only goes to show that neither the Americans or the Brits, nor especially the Germans and even more so the Russians, are ever to be trusted. At least the French (as well as the Czechs) can be counted upon to give up with minimal resistance.

    Other than that little historical incongruity, I think this is a great article, and I'm giving it a +1FP.

    [TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"

    Not to mention air power (3.50 / 2) (#236)
    by hardburn on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:39:50 PM EST

    I don't remember the name of the guy, but there was a German military officer who wanted to rebuild German airpower after WWI. This, of course, was illegal under the terms of surrender, so he got together with the Russians (as well as the Italians) to build bases where Germany could train new pilots for the day when Germany could rise again. These bases where instrumental in building the Nazi war machine.


    ----
    while($story = K5::Story->new()) { $story->vote(-1) if($story->section() == $POLITICS); }


    [ Parent ]
    of course we hate the French... (3.93 / 15) (#197)
    by pb on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:44:07 AM EST

    I would like to say that I have nothing against any individual French people; I am willing to give any of them a chance, and am perfectly willing to end up disliking them on a case-by-case basis.  But I'll happily rant about the French, because that's just fun.  :)

    It isn't that they always lose; it's that they whine about it until they have their way. The French are at least partially responsible for The Great Depression and World War II, all you have to do is follow the money.

    I mean, really, in WWI, why should Germany have had to pay France for winning?  (especially when Germany didn't even start the war; they were brought into it by their allies, just like almost everyone else)  Well, it's because France is the land of diplomacy (read: losers) where they take everyone to France, have a big peace conference, and bitch and moan until they get their way.

    So what happens?  Well, we end up loaning Germany money (to pay France), and there's a big cycle of borrowing that goes on until a Swiss bank defaults, and the world economy collapses.  This sets the stage for The Great Depression and World War II.

    That's because Germany was desperate for anything to get them out of their economic troubles, but not desperate enough for Communism.  This environment allowed Hitler's rise to power, and by the time everyone figured out what he was, it was too late.

    But at least he stomped France again, which is what they deserved for their conduct after WWI.  :)

    And if the "cheese-eating surrender monkey" argument wasn't enough for you, well, there's always "Jerry Lewis", "French Hospitality (read: snobbery)", "The French Language" (and preserving their culture against the evil Le Big Mac) and "Nuclear Power".

    And how such a culture of manic-depressive, smelly people can have a reputation for being diplomats and sex symbols is beyond me, but I suppose that was another time...  However, France is a big producer of whine, and they do have a lot of cheese to go with it, so that's something.  :)
    ---
    "See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
    -- pwhysall

    Yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda... (2.28 / 7) (#218)
    by Shovas on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:14:05 PM EST

    With all due respect, can you shut up now? I almost wanted vomit reading this repulsive trash posing as K5 post. Get a grip with reality. All your little smilies do little to comfort me into believing this was a sarcastic piece.

    I be if we all acted like the French, we'd have world peace by now.
    ---
    Join the petition: Rusty! Make dumped stories & discussion public!
    ---
    Disagree? Post. Don't mod.
    [ Parent ]
    pfah (3.25 / 4) (#241)
    by pb on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:52:30 PM EST

    Perhaps you stumbled into this article by mistake?

    Ah well.  Maybe if you listened twice as much as you spoke, (i.e., read the comments, story, etc...) you could get an idea of how serious we actually are about this.  Like, if the French banned K5 for this story, we'd all laugh at them, feeling amused and vindicated, and vaguely bewildered that they could take this seriously.

    And I'd happily debate any specific argument you have with my post, but you don't seem to have any!  I mean, besides that it's "repulsive trash", that just might be sarcastic.  Therefore, your comment confuses me; it is not only content-free, but also detracts from discussion in general by saying "can you shut up"...

    If you want to debate, calm down, and we can talk about this like actual people.  Otherwise, well... could you shut up?  ;)
    ---
    "See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
    -- pwhysall
    [ Parent ]

    If we all acted like the French, (4.00 / 3) (#316)
    by Apuleius on Fri May 03, 2002 at 05:14:38 PM EST

    we'd all be speaking German.


    There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. (The South Park chef)
    [ Parent ]
    mmm, Weizenbier! (3.50 / 2) (#359)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 02:03:01 AM EST

    But seriously, just think of the quality of hollywood movies if all their actors copied their French colleagues.

    [ Parent ]

    different sources (5.00 / 1) (#485)
    by TahitiBob on Sun May 05, 2002 at 07:20:22 PM EST

    And if the "cheese-eating surrender monkey" argument wasn't enough for you, well, there's always "Jerry Lewis", "French Hospitality (read: snobbery)", "The French Language" (and preserving their culture against the evil Le Big Mac) and "Nuclear Power".

    I like Quentin Tarantino's movies but I don't see them as documentaries : here in France, in a McDonald's "restaurant", we order a Big Mac, not the Big Mac.
    How much credit can I give you,if you don't pay more attention to what you say ?

    Thinking that someday we'll be able to clean nuclear waste might be a daydream or idealism but what about the greenhouse effects induced by coal and petroleum ?
    I don't think the main part of the US energy is made through ecological ways. There is plenty of sun in California, so why were there power outtage, when there could have been solar facilities ?

    Ferris Bueller : I did have a test today. That wasn't bullshit. It's on European socialism. I mean, really, what's the point? I'm not European, I don't plan on being European, so who gives a crap if they're socialists?
    They could be fascist anarchists. That still wouldn't change the fact that I don't own a car. Not that I condone fascism, or any ism for that matter. Isms in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an ism - he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon: "I don't believe in Beatles - I just believe in me". A good point there. Of course, he was the Walrus. I could be the Walrus - I'd still have to bum rides off of people.


    [ Parent ]
    RIFLE DROPPERS! (3.60 / 10) (#205)
    by regeya on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:51:27 AM EST


    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]

    Sick of that argument (3.50 / 2) (#318)
    by CtrlBR on Fri May 03, 2002 at 05:36:40 PM EST

    Go learn about the battle of Verdun and you'll understand that compared to that things that you're proud of like Iwo Jima were more like and Sunday familly picnic...

    So much for the rifle droppers...

    If no-one thinks you're a freedom fighter than you're probably not a terrorist.
    -- Gully Foyle

    [ Parent ]
    humor (3.50 / 2) (#330)
    by regeya on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:09:13 PM EST

    it is a difficult concept

    [ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
    [ Parent ]

    My Pet Theory (3.87 / 8) (#207)
    by Assume on Fri May 03, 2002 at 11:55:57 AM EST

    As countries become more powerful, they usually lose any sort of culture. France is the exception to this rule, so America, with it's complete lack of any culture whatsoever, is jealous.

    I'm ... just a man. Only a man.


    France's "culture" ... (2.33 / 3) (#271)
    by beergut on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:33:52 PM EST

    is the same as that which grows in their toilet traps.

    i don't see any nanorobots or jet engines or laser holography or orbiting death satellites.
    i just see some orangutan throwing code-feces at a computer screen.

    -- indubitable
    [ Parent ]

    American culture does exist (5.00 / 1) (#449)
    by hawaii on Sun May 05, 2002 at 02:52:13 AM EST

    I think your assertion about the lack of American culture is far too general. While compared with European countries this may appear so, there is certainly a distinct American culture of the past and present.

    If you have been to America and haven't travelled extensively, or only visited large cities in the north east or west coast, then you would come to that conclusion about culture. But if you've actually gone elsewhere, then you'll have to reconsider.

    For a quick and fun taste of some American culture, see 'Oh Brother, Where art Thou', which gives a sampling of lifestyles in Mississippi duing the depression.

    Anyway, American culture can alot from the South, from New Orleans dixieland and Cajun sylings to Mississippi Delta blues to Memphis rhythym and blues to Nashville country/western to hillbilly stylings from the Deep South. And I'm not just talking about music, I'm talking about food/lifestyles/ways of living, etc.

    Head to the southwest for a distinctively different kind of culture, in the desert states of Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico. Different foods, different architecture, different art, different music, etc. Mixture of Mexican/Native American, and others have influenced this region.

    So, there is definitely culture in America. While there doesn't seem to be any universal American culture to be easily stereotyped, different regions have different feels. Travel off the beaten path, see what I'm talking about. It's definitely there. Go on a road trip, read some Kerouac, you'll find what I'm talking about.

    Next time you're in America or have some free time if you live here, try going to an out-of-the-way place in a small town somewhere, eat in a roadside diner somewhere (not along the interstate, but along a smaller road), talk with the people. You'll find a different kind of friendliness and a different kind of culture.

    [ Parent ]

    Anyone a Sociologist? (3.57 / 7) (#215)
    by omegadan on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:10:32 PM EST

    My brother who has a degree in Sociology told me that the reason the french act so strange is, they had a infamous sociologist who tried to re-engineer their society (he was in some position of power). His main theroy wsa that religious worship was really masked self worship, and that it would be best just to teach children to *worship* french culture above all others.

    I'm not sure if this is true, but it sure would explain alot of things. Like the draconian language laws in ontario canada.

    Religion is a gateway psychosis. - Dave Foley

    no, but it rings a bell (3.50 / 2) (#365)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 03:42:56 AM EST

    You've got a good point. I think that French sociologist (his name escapes me at the moment, but I know who you mean) was also responsible for the Eiffel Tower, not of course directly as an engineer, but it's clearly a tribute to Freud, his mentor.

    He had quite a bit of influence on primary school curricula, I remember my first history books used to emphasise French history, little chapters with titles such as "Our ancestors the Gauls" and of course "Napoleon, Emperor of the French". Then there's obviously all the monuments in Paris, like the Louvre and the Arc De Triomphe, and the Centre Pompidou, which really serve as a subtle reminder of French culture in Paris. The Notre Dame cathedral is a lone exception, since it got a facelift to make it look more like the Disney movie.

    You also don't get nearly as many statues and obelisks outside the capital, but then everyone has to visit the capital sooner or later, and then they get hit. He really had a lasting effect, and it's even more striking if you compare the contemporary Paris with its counterpart during Louis XIV's reign. Damn, if I could just remember the guy's name, he was really important.

    [ Parent ]

    Somehow you made me laugh (2.00 / 1) (#419)
    by The Eradicator on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:23:33 PM EST

    Like the draconian language laws in ontario canada.

    Oh my... if only.



    [ Parent ]
    Presumptuous Tosh. (3.42 / 7) (#227)
    by m0rzo on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:21:58 PM EST

    -1. I'm sure all Americans don't hate the French.


    My last sig was just plain offensive.

    +!: exceptions to every rule (2.66 / 3) (#234)
    by maroberts on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:34:41 PM EST

    This article is talking about the general state of affairs, not individual cases. I'm sure *all* USians don't hate the French, but as a generality it appears to be true.
    ~~~
    The greatest trick the Devil pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist -- Verbil Kint, The Usual Suspects
    [ Parent ]
    the French sympathize with our enemies (4.00 / 9) (#231)
    by mulvaney on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:28:23 PM EST

    Like the serbs.

    But we don't really care about the French that much. This is something that Europeans need to understand: the French are just like any other foreigners to Americans, and we don't care about you.

    We certainly don't hate you. We don't even think about you, except as a nice place to spend a vacation.

    -Mike

    Why do you think I have this outrageous accent? (4.16 / 12) (#239)
    by rho on Fri May 03, 2002 at 12:50:42 PM EST

    Our problems with the French are too myriad to be summed up in the few words allowed by the Queen's English. So you can brick up your yap, you greasy limey.

    First, it's not that the French won't speak English--a lot of us USians took a couple of years of Frog-talk in high school, but those damn, dirty French waiters refuse to try to understand us when we try to speak French.

    When they *do* talk to us, they always sound like they're pissing on us from a great height. Plus, they bully us into eating boiled mice in heavy cream.

    Second, it's not that they surrendered--it's that they surrendered so fast. France became the screen door of Europe; it gets slammed from both directions as people run through it.

    Getting beat up by the Germans is one thing. Dropping your pants for them is another thing. I wonder how the French could be so bad at war when I think of how close they came to conquering Europe under Napolean. Then I remember that Napolean wasn't French, he was Corsican. He's closer to an Italian than a Frenchman. Figures. Italy has all the style, smarts, talent, and beautiful women.

    You would have thought that hanging with the Germans for a few years would have taught them to be clean, but the dog crap is still ankle deep in Paris.

    Third, the Statue of Liberty was defective. She got all dirty and mildewy, so we had to clean her up several years ago. Just like a dirty Frenchman.

    Fourth, this article was waaaay funny. Thanks for the laugh.
    "The thought of two thousand people munching celery at the same time [horrifies] me." --G.B. Shaw

    P.J. O'Rourke couldn't have done any better (none / 0) (#444)
    by jet_silver on Sun May 05, 2002 at 12:33:25 AM EST

    than this comment, though he tried in his story Among the Euro-Weenies.

    ;)
    "What they really fear is machine-gunning politicians becoming a popular sport, like skate-boarding." -Nicolas Freeling
    [ Parent ]

    Caught it in a compilation, missed the original (none / 0) (#495)
    by rho on Mon May 06, 2002 at 11:21:09 AM EST

    Holidays in Hell, I think it was.

    Do me a favor--don't read any Lewis Grizzard. That's where I steal the other half of my material. Some people think I steal from Dave Barry, but I don't. Dave is my Personal God, and I simply worship him.
    "The thought of two thousand people munching celery at the same time [horrifies] me." --G.B. Shaw
    [ Parent ]

    Why Americans hate the English so... (4.20 / 10) (#243)
    by gibichung on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:01:01 PM EST

    Aside from the frequent use of the word "USian." (I can understand why, being as their country is now called the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." I mean, if my country didn't have a real name, I guess I'd try to force obnoxious monikers on others as well.) Note that the author of this article is English, if you missed that detail.

    Borrowed from NationalLampoon.com: (slightly edited for really offensive content, but have a sense of humor. Or humour if that's your thing.):

    ENGLISH

    Cold-blooded queers with nasty complexions and terrible teeth who once conquered half the world but still haven't figured out central heating. They warm their beers and chill their baths and boil all their food, including bread. An intensely snobbish group, but who exactly they're snubbing is an international mystery. Lately they've been getting their comeuppance world power-wise, as their shabby, antiquated, and bankrupt little back alley of a country slowly winds down like the ill-crafted clockwork playthings of which their undersized children are so fond. They all have large collections of something useless like lamp finials or toad eggs, and they would have lost both world wars if it were not for us. They like to be spanked with canes and that's just what they deserve.

    And other members of their "Kingdom":

    Irish | Scots

    And of their "Commonwealth":

    Australians | Canadians

    If anything, bashing the French is a national joke here. But in reality, Americans love France, and the French apparently don't reciprocate any hostility. I see this article as nothing more than some poor citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland taking out his frustration at not having a properly named country on us Americans.

    -----
    "No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it." -- Theodore Roosevelt

    watchu talkin' bout willis? i love the french (4.66 / 6) (#250)
    by jpm165 on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:19:39 PM EST

    lightly sauteed with a side of mushrooms and black beans and rice. plus from the average frenchman you get enough left over for sandwiches for at least a week. +1 front page.

    "But then, why should you listen to me? For I know nothing..."

    Cross link.... (4.00 / 2) (#314)
    by Elkor on Fri May 03, 2002 at 05:00:14 PM EST

    Don't forget to cross link that comment to this story

    Regards,
    Elkor


    "I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
    -Margo Eve
    [ Parent ]
    Why I dislike the French: (4.00 / 10) (#251)
    by Mephron on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:20:06 PM EST

    1) Half of my Genetics: German.
    2) Other half of my genetics: Cymru.  You know, the Welsh, the people that invented the Longbow, and got a bad reputation from the French after that whole Crecy thing.

    (These two together mean that I want to conquer Europe for two weeks in the summer.)

    3) My brother, in high school, did a foreign-exchange thing with a school in France.  The French kid was so obnoxious (he refused, for example, to eat chicken that we bought at the local supermarket because it 'wasn't fresh enough' for his taste, he hated the vegetables, and whined that we couldn't get him the snails he wanted) that we were pleased to see him go at the end of that two weeks.  (So was the dog - the kid bathed, I think, three times in two weeks.)  And when he was asked to get along, indicated that he didn't have to - he was a Frenchman and a visitor.  So that put a hell of a damper on my enjoyment of the French.
    4) Hint:  It's not a 'french' word because you put an accent in it.  So putting an accent over the i in 'multimedia' is stupid.  (They really did this.)
    5) They borrowed millions of dollars in equipment from the US in WW2 (via the Lend-Lease Program) and then ignored the idea of paying back the loan.  (This brings up the idea of foreclosing on France, but then we'd have to foreclose on most of Europe, excepting Finland.)

    I'm not even counting the whole Le Pen thing against them - rabblerousers like that fellator of goats get attention all the time.

    out of curiosity (4.00 / 3) (#280)
    by demi on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:55:41 PM EST

    Can you hammer out a correct phonetic version of 'Cymru' for me?



    [ Parent ]

    Well, the course I took... (4.25 / 4) (#290)
    by Mephron on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:09:57 PM EST

    ...taught me it was 'Kim-ru'.  But you draw the 'i' sound out a bit, but not enought that it's an 'ee' sound - not 'Keem-ru'.

    Of course, that may just have been local dialect.  It's a fascinating language, really.  I'm hardly fluent in it, having put it aside for a bit in order to learn Japanese (too much anime, too little time).

    [ Parent ]

    ask for your money back (5.00 / 1) (#542)
    by streetlawyer on Thu May 09, 2002 at 07:30:42 AM EST

    Cymru is pronounced "Kumree", and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. The Collins "Geiriadur Bach" agrees with me on this, so it's not that I grew up in a bizarre linguistic island or anything.

    --
    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]
    America: Land of Hybird Vigor (4.50 / 4) (#283)
    by porkchop_d_clown on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:59:23 PM EST

    I'm half-german, half-irish, myself. Which pretty much explains my affection for beer, don't you think?


    --
    The Three Billy Goats Gruff, Episode II: Attack of the Trolls


    [ Parent ]
    Multimedia (4.00 / 3) (#292)
    by LeftOfCentre on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:16:01 PM EST

    When words are stolen from foreign languages, they typically need to be adapted to suit local grammar conventions. So putting an apostrophe on the e may well be necessary in French. (I wouldn't know since I don't speak French.)

    [ Parent ]
    The idea was.... (4.33 / 3) (#299)
    by Mephron on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:32:56 PM EST

    it would be spelled 'multimèdia' and pronounced 'mul-ti-MAY-dee-ah'.

    You say 'to-mah-to', I say 'to-may-to', let's call the whole thing off.

    [ Parent ]

    sorry, wrong accent (4.00 / 2) (#355)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:36:33 AM EST

    It's multimédia.

    [ Parent ]

    Thank you (N/P) (3.00 / 1) (#420)
    by Mephron on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:42:30 PM EST



    [ Parent ]
    Multimédia (none / 0) (#471)
    by gouyou on Sun May 05, 2002 at 10:50:43 AM EST

    'multimedia' is maybe an english word ?

    The true origin of this word is latin, so pretending that french spelling is not exact and that the real true one is the english one is just plain dumb !

    multi = several
    media = communication medium

    el gouyou

    [ Parent ]
    what a great sample (none / 0) (#484)
    by TahitiBob on Sun May 05, 2002 at 06:42:29 PM EST

    First I have to admit I'm French.

    2) I'm so stupid I just thought the Americans-USians- US citizens-whatever_you_call_them created the longbow ;-)

    3) I have to say that I don't even bathe once a week. As a pig, I only have a shower once a day, or twice somedays.

    4) I agree with you on that point (they did even worse : cédérom for CDROM, but the people who do that are old ones called "immortals" but who are close to death)

    5) When did the USA payed the Billion USD they owe to UN ? oh sorry YOU ARE the UN, that's why the UN's headquarters are in NYC.

    You are right not to count the whole Le Pen Thing : he would have liked to:
    • block immigration (neither done nor restricted in the US)
    • forbid abortion (no one thinks about it in the US)
    • lessen immigrants'rights (no one thinks about it in the US)
    • give the priority to "real French"
    • get France out of the European Union (is there an union that's not the Federal one ?)


    I did not vote for him on 04/21st and today (05/05).
    Excuse me to focus on US but the subject of the thread is about US & France ...
    Of course the "far-right" doesn't get 20% when there are elections in the US, but as it seems here there are only 2 big political parties in the US so the bad guys hide (in white costumes ?)
    There's no perfect place. There's no perfect human.

    as Nick Diamond & Johnny Gomez say : "Good fight, good night !"

    [ Parent ]
    How do I hate them, let me count the ways.... (3.62 / 8) (#252)
    by Elkor on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:23:38 PM EST

    All of the following are sweeping generalizations or stereotypes that ignore many other factors, but, you're being stereotypical, so it all works out.

    They helped us in our Revolutionary War and haven't let us forget it. Even our enemies at the time (Britain) have gotten over it. Since then we:
    Saved their butts in WWI.
    Saved their butts in WWII.
    Got involved in Korea to help and they left us hanging... (Though we did get MASH out of it, so that might be considered a decent trade)
    Got us involved in (the wrong side of) Vietnam to "help" them and then pulled most of their troops out.

    They make their cheese deliberately moldy and claim it is "good" for you.... riiiiight.

    EuroDisney, oh, sorry "Disneyland Paris." Shoulda stuck it in Germany to help their economy and let tourists have good beer on their visits.

    Weekly Baths, no deoderant.

    Creating a fashion industry intent on designing clothes that "normal" people can't wear.

    The Beret (a silly looking hat, see above)

    Rude Waiters.

    Mopeds.

    MIMES!

    Want more?

    Regards,
    Elkor


    "I won't tell you how to love God if you don't tell me how to love myself."
    -Margo Eve
    Mimes. (4.00 / 3) (#291)
    by Mephron on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:11:02 PM EST

    I hate those guys.

    [ Parent ]
    Vietnam (4.00 / 2) (#320)
    by CtrlBR on Fri May 03, 2002 at 05:41:31 PM EST

    Our Vietnam war ended in 1954, your started in 1962, weren't you fucking late to help us ?
    If no-one thinks you're a freedom fighter than you're probably not a terrorist.
    -- Gully Foyle

    [ Parent ]
    1962? (4.00 / 2) (#321)
    by KnightStalker on Fri May 03, 2002 at 06:00:14 PM EST

    Johnson didn't really escalate the war until 1962, but the US was involved in Vietnam since 1945 and began explicitly helping the French (at least monetarily) in 1950.

    [ Parent ]
    Mimes (4.00 / 2) (#392)
    by spiralx on Sat May 04, 2002 at 10:24:59 AM EST

    Deserve to be hung, drawn and quartered, and then we can all dance in their entrails as we burn Paris to the ground for inflicting these wankers upon us.

    You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey
    [ Parent ]

    WE SURRENDER. (3.76 / 21) (#255)
    by France on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:28:53 PM EST




    Oh, hell, another 3rd world country ... (3.25 / 4) (#302)
    by pyramid termite on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:48:18 PM EST

    ... trying to get aid from us. Shameful.
    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    i don't think everyone got the joke ;) (none / 0) (#438)
    by infinitera on Sat May 04, 2002 at 11:48:03 PM EST

    Mmm, roaring mice.

    [ Parent ]
    The Third World (none / 0) (#477)
    by howardjp on Sun May 05, 2002 at 02:28:30 PM EST

    Died December 25, 1991. The term is no longer appropriate or accurate. The Economist recommends calling these countries "poor," but that only makes sense where appropriate. For instance, Switzerland was a Third World nation, but definetly not poor.

    [ Parent ]
    Did anybody tell them? (nt) (none / 0) (#514)
    by pyramid termite on Tue May 07, 2002 at 09:00:55 AM EST


    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    The REAL reason Americans hate the French. (4.00 / 11) (#258)
    by Stickerboy on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:36:30 PM EST

    Their men sleazily try to steal our wimmenfolk every chance they can get with their slick accents and their slicker moustaches.

    Their women, on the other hand, don't shave and don't bathe daily. It's not a fair trade if we steal their women back.

    phallo-centric gender slavery! (3.50 / 2) (#261)
    by mikpos on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:38:37 PM EST

    Seeing as the majority of Americans are female, I believe, wouldn't that mean that Americans should love the French? After all, from the female point of view, the Americans are getting a pretty good deal, ya?

    [ Parent ]
    On Bathing And Shaving (none / 0) (#490)
    by fraise on Mon May 06, 2002 at 06:29:08 AM EST

    You're right, they don't shower daily. They take baths daily. You know, washing oneself in big deep things that can be filled with warm water.

    As for not shaving, that is also correct. They epilate (remove hair semi-permanently).

    :)

    [ Parent ]
    -1, a famous troll is still a troll (3.14 / 7) (#260)
    by trhurler on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:38:09 PM EST

    That is all.

    --
    'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

    French people != French elite. (4.42 / 21) (#264)
    by Apuleius on Fri May 03, 2002 at 01:50:27 PM EST

    In the time Americans have kept a single republic up and running, the French elite have gone through two kings, two emperors, one occupational regime, and five republics. From this one can conclude that the French are in no position to lecture Americans about the care and feeding of a republican government. Contrary to the impression Americans get from the media, the average Frenchman has a far higher opinion of the US than the average Parisian bureaucrat or graduate of the Grandes Ecoles. But it's the Parisian elite that Americans commonly encounter reading the papers or watching the news, and Americans justifiably regard the French elite to be a bunch of dicks.

    Why do I say justifiably, might you ask? Well, let's see: 1.There's the De Gaulle regime's backhanded decision to let several would-be Nuremberg defendants escape trial (most notably, Haj Amin al-Husseini and his entourage). 2. There's France's "nuanced" policy of being completely un-coöperative in the Cold War. 3. Vietnam. If the French elite hadn't played divide and conquer games with the Vietnamese Catholics and Buddhists, the entire civil war might have been prevented.

    It should be noted, however, that Jean Baguette and Joe Sixpack are perfectly capable of getting along. It's the elite of France that seriously needs to be swatted on the ass.




    There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. (The South Park chef)
    It's worse than that (3.09 / 11) (#279)
    by pyramid termite on Fri May 03, 2002 at 02:53:14 PM EST

    In the time Americans have kept a single republic up and running, the French elite have gone through two kings, two emperors, one occupational regime, and five republics.

    And one change of clothes as they did it. Yuck.
    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    Pretty classy (3.60 / 5) (#309)
    by medham on Fri May 03, 2002 at 04:42:03 PM EST

    Your New Yorker style diaeresis, that is.

    The real 'medham' has userid 6831.
    [ Parent ]

    Well (3.66 / 3) (#375)
    by Betcour on Sat May 04, 2002 at 05:46:27 AM EST

    There's the De Gaulle regime's backhanded decision to let several would-be Nuremberg defendants escape trial (most notably, Haj Amin al-Husseini and his entourage).

    It's not like the US and USSR didn't do the same and let some high ranking Nazi people get away because they knew a few useful things (the most notable being the V2 engineers who had no problem finding a job after WWII)

    [ Parent ]
    Not the engineers (2.33 / 3) (#396)
    by tjb on Sat May 04, 2002 at 11:35:33 AM EST

    The UK, US and USSR did let a select few high-ranking SS intelligence officers off the hook for military reasons. Complain about that if you want, but it really doesn't match up to guys that de Gaulle let go.

    The engineers though?  Building a weapon isn't a war-crime.  Its not like Werner von Braun was running an extermination camp.  He was building rockets because he was fanatical about rocketry.  

    As von Braun famously said:

    "I aim for the moon, but sometimes I hit London"

    Tim

    [ Parent ]

    Playing dirty (3.33 / 3) (#414)
    by Betcour on Sat May 04, 2002 at 03:21:17 PM EST

    Well if you really want to get in the game of "who supported the most evil guy", the USA has a dirty past with several war criminal and genocide makers. Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein (before he falled into disgrace), even Osama Ben Laden have all been supported by the US. And lets not forget Ariel Sharon of course. All reasons why the US is also opposed to an international permanent court of justice.
    Frankly it is hard for the US to complain about other countries lack of ethic with all the blood on their own hands.

    "Only the winners decide what were war crimes." (Gary Willis)

    [ Parent ]
    von Braun (3.00 / 1) (#494)
    by wiredog on Mon May 06, 2002 at 09:55:24 AM EST

    Didn't say that.

    Peoples Front To Reunite Gondwanaland: "Stop the Laurasian Separatist Movement!"
    [ Parent ]
    Historical correction (2.00 / 1) (#541)
    by streetlawyer on Thu May 09, 2002 at 07:27:45 AM EST

    Its not like Werner von Braun was running an extermination camp. He was building rockets because he was fanatical about rocketry.

    Actually, von Braun did run something pretty much as bad as an extermination camp, where V2 rockets were built with slave labour under appalling conditions.

    --
    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]

    Linca, another zero?!? (3.66 / 3) (#459)
    by Lode Runner on Sun May 05, 2002 at 05:15:39 AM EST

    Linca, how can you possibly justify giving Apuleius a zero for this comment's parent?

    Zeros are for spam and/or offtopic ravings, Apuleius's comment is neither.

    Are you upset because you believe he has unfairly tarnished France's image? Then explain what you think he's distorted rather than just zeroing him and running.

    J'accuse! A quick check of your comments and rating history reveals that you are strongly inclined to propagate criticisms (no matter how detached from reality) of the US and another group of people who won't be named here but whose persecution you've lately been trying to belittle, rationalize, and "explain." Yet when it comes time to criticize France, which lost World War Two twice and then employed Nazis as toturers in its losing battle in Algeria and is now accusing my country of "simplisme" and decrying its hypocrisy while insisting that French must become the global language of resistance to globalization, you break out the zeros...

    Moi, je suis pas francophobe et je lis presque chaque jour les quotidiens, donc je suis pas ignorant. Mais ici à K5... souvent je trouve le comportement des francais pire que le comportement des autres. L'hypocrisie m'enerve...

    Nous pouvons continuer en francais si tu veux... j'ai besoin de la pratique...



    [ Parent ]

    As a USian... (3.66 / 6) (#287)
    by scanman on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:07:01 PM EST

    As a USian, I have not been aware of coming into contact with the French, however, if I do meet the French, I will be sure to remember not to treat the French with beastality.

    "[You are] a narrow-minded moron [and] a complete loser." - David Quartz
    "scanman: The moron." - ucblockhead
    "I prefer the term 'lifeskills impaired'" - Inoshiro

    Good (4.00 / 6) (#300)
    by epepke on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:37:15 PM EST

    They prefer "water sports" anyway.


    The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett


    [ Parent ]
    Vote Le Pen (2.87 / 8) (#295)
    by Your Moms Cock on Fri May 03, 2002 at 03:18:05 PM EST

    You know you want to.


    --
    Mountain Dew cans. Cat hair. Comic book posters. Living with the folks. Are these our future leaders, our intellectual supermen?

    US-ian? (3.16 / 6) (#311)
    by lvogel on Fri May 03, 2002 at 04:55:52 PM EST

    would you like to be called a Frog? Perhaps the US-French alliance would be strenghtened if they didn't post such stupid articles on kuro5hin... Another idea is, this country ( to its own detriment) is very conservative/Republican and cares more about American businesses, whereas the French tend to formulate policy that is oriented more towards their people and social policy(ies). But what do I know.
    -- ----------------------
    "When you're on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog!"

    -a dog
    but (2.60 / 5) (#315)
    by gibichung on Fri May 03, 2002 at 05:02:08 PM EST

    nobbystyles is a Citizen of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    This story is a clever trick to insult both the Americans and the French at the same time, something the Citizens of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland have been trying to accomplish for years.

    -----
    "No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it." -- Theodore Roosevelt
    [ Parent ]

    whoops (2.80 / 5) (#317)
    by gibichung on Fri May 03, 2002 at 05:22:09 PM EST

    The second part of my comment was completely stolen from demi's earlier comment. So many comments, hard to keep track of whether the thoughts in my head are mine or not.

    -----
    "No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it." -- Theodore Roosevelt
    [ Parent ]
    I know what you mean (3.00 / 3) (#384)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:53:02 AM EST

    The other day, I...whoops, that wasn't me.

    Wait, that wasn't even my comment either, I just read it in someone's .sig

    [ Parent ]

    Actually, that is wrong (3.83 / 6) (#322)
    by Hong Kong Phooey on Fri May 03, 2002 at 06:03:41 PM EST

    The limeys are subjects of the queen, not citizens.

    [ Parent ]
    Ignorance (3.00 / 2) (#540)
    by streetlawyer on Thu May 09, 2002 at 07:25:53 AM EST

    You are wrong on this point, and I suspect on many others. A glance at the inside front cover of a British passport, or indeed at the Reform Act of 1832, will clear this matter up.

    --
    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]
    la grenouille (3.00 / 1) (#469)
    by me0w on Sun May 05, 2002 at 10:00:24 AM EST

    I don't mind being called a Frog ... it's kinda cute and makes me giggle.


    "The only reason we PMS is because our uterus is screaming at our brain to go out, get fucked, and have a baby ... and it makes us angry."
    [ Parent ]

    it looks like (3.45 / 11) (#323)
    by Goatmaster on Fri May 03, 2002 at 06:15:35 PM EST

    The dumb Usians have awoken and are trying to stuff this down the crapper. I say, come on you fat blokes, it's funny! Vote it up!


    ... and so the Goatmaster has spoken
    as a ignorint amarican (4.00 / 3) (#326)
    by nodsmasher on Fri May 03, 2002 at 06:46:49 PM EST

    here's my take
    the frech seem to be quite stuborn about certin things
    take language, they are the only country that refuses to make there pilots speak english when coming into air ports.
    nationality all the same this is an issue of public safty, most pilots do not speak french so the frech come off as these arogent basterds who think that there language is beter then every onese else.
    now exuse me will i go back to watching the city of lost children while eating my frenchs frys after coming home from snow boarding in quabec
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Most people don't realise just how funny cannibalism can actually be.
    -Tatarigami
    Well done (none / 0) (#428)
    by svampa on Sat May 04, 2002 at 08:53:03 PM EST

    that there language is beter then every onese else

    No. They think it's as good as anyone's else, and defend this equality with acts.

    By the way, I'm Spanish, not French



    [ Parent ]
    airport language (none / 0) (#483)
    by TahitiBob on Sun May 05, 2002 at 05:55:25 PM EST

    maybe that's because French, among other languages like English is an "official language" of the ICAO.

    International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) - secures international co-operation and uniformity in regulations and standards, procedures, and organization regarding civil aviation matters.
    www.icao.int (this doesn't seem to work for me)

    [ Parent ]
    Sheesh... (4.20 / 5) (#328)
    by Danse on Fri May 03, 2002 at 06:55:38 PM EST

    Everybody knows that the French act snooty to USians (had to do it :) because they didn't get the trillion dollar bill we promised them after WWII.






    An honest debate between Bush and Kerry
    NPian (Nit Pick-ian) (3.10 / 10) (#334)
    by quasipalm on Fri May 03, 2002 at 07:35:31 PM EST

    USian is not a word. Feel free to stop using it. If you can't stand the word American because you think k5ers will get confused and think you're talking about everyone in the western hemisphere (which, I guarantee, nobody will) then use "US citizen." But, please, American is fine. We can tell by context that you're talking about US people.

    Many words have more than one meaning. I don't understand why non-US k5ers are such a stickler about this one.

    (hi)
    Cos (2.66 / 6) (#371)
    by nobbystyles on Sat May 04, 2002 at 05:09:41 AM EST

    It seems to annoy the fsck out of the USians for no good reason.

    [ Parent ]
    sin (4.40 / 5) (#374)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 05:42:40 AM EST

    UKian humour is wasted on them. As you English say: I one more time, mac, unclog my nose in your direction, sons of a window-dresser! So, you think you could out-clever us French folk with your silly knees-bent running about advancing behaviour? I wave my private parts at your aunties, you cheesy lot of second-handed electric donkey-bottom biters!

    [ Parent ]

    Why I prefer USian (2.62 / 8) (#373)
    by Betcour on Sat May 04, 2002 at 05:41:28 AM EST

    USian (or Americans if you prefer) tend to think of themselves as the center of the world (aka "leader of the free world", "country of freedom" and other nonesense). "American" reflect perfectly this idea that USA is the only true country of the Americas, and hence that people in there can be called "Americans" (implying that other Americans from Mexico, Canada or Brazil are not worth much or don't exists at all).

    [ Parent ]
    Ignore history, then (3.85 / 7) (#379)
    by gibichung on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:30:29 AM EST

    When the United States of America was named, there were no Canadians, Mexicans, or Brazilians. There were only English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese.

    Thus, calling our nation "The United States of America" did not claim the entire hemisphere for ourselves, but took a name that people in what are now those nations would have found insulting at the time.

    Mexicans are not "Americans." They live on a continent called "North America." It's trivial to make the destinction, and it is rarely needed, because the context in which the word "American" could be used would be enough.

    The fact is, the word "USian" is no different from the word "Nigger." The justifications for using them both are similar, and both easily refuted.

    Are they "African Americans?" What about Egyptians?

    Are they "Black Americans?" What about Indians?

    The word "Nigger" is thus perfect to describe them, to avoid the ambiguity of other descriptions. As that Americans take offense at being called "USians" is of no concern, why should the opinion of African Americans be considered in using the word "Nigger?" Of course, it isn't acceptable to slur Blacks in such a manner. Why shouldn't the same be true for Americans?

    -----
    "No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it." -- Theodore Roosevelt
    [ Parent ]

    Is the word USian (1.83 / 6) (#381)
    by nobbystyles on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:43:39 AM EST

    Associated with racism, slavery and repression like 'nigger'. Nope, it's a new and more accurate term which replaces the word American.

    Why you USians get so upset about a new word which has no negative conetations at all is beyond me. You can call me limey, pom etc and I wouldn't bat an eyelid...

    [ Parent ]

    so what? (3.66 / 6) (#383)
    by gibichung on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:51:57 AM EST

    It's not accurate. It's artifical and it was invented and has been used nearly exclusively to slur Americans.

    You're just using offensive language to insight anger and to mock. You can hide behind your laughable reasoning, much like many others before you have used "the proven fact of racial superiority" to justify their garbage. It might not be politically incorrect yet, but I assure you that history will judge you no better.

    -----
    "No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it." -- Theodore Roosevelt
    [ Parent ]

    did you see... (3.00 / 3) (#386)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 07:21:46 AM EST

    this comment?

    [ Parent ]

    Irrelevant (4.00 / 6) (#388)
    by gibichung on Sat May 04, 2002 at 07:31:14 AM EST

    I find it unsurprising that something similar has come up before. The referenced comment did not, however, demonstrate that the word was ever used by anyone but its inventor.

    Americans have never referred to ourselves as "USians." The name is strictly a foreign moniker. Also, the context in which this was used probably does not compare to the offensive nature of "USian."

    For Americans to adopt "USians" would be comparable to Indians adopting "Wogs" or Mexicans adopting "Spics." This is no less absurd. While I support the right of any individual to freedom of speech, I cannot be expected to take someone who would use "USian" any more seriously than one who would use "Jap."

    -----
    "No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it." -- Theodore Roosevelt
    [ Parent ]

    Damn those artifical words!!! (3.66 / 3) (#434)
    by delmoi on Sat May 04, 2002 at 09:24:51 PM EST

    That's true, artifical words are terrible, terrible things. We should only be using all-natural words.
    --
    "'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
    [ Parent ]
    Except (1.66 / 9) (#413)
    by Betcour on Sat May 04, 2002 at 03:14:21 PM EST

    USian is not an insult in common language. It's not even in common language at all, so it's a long way from being an insult. Niger is really an insult nowaday (although it's a perfectly proper word directly issued from latin origin, and "negro" is still used in Spanish)

    Calling a USA citizen an "American" is like calling an Israeli colony in Palestine a "Israeli neighbourhood". It's not just a word, it carries a political and ideological payload that is neither innocent nor harmless. What effect this payload has is up for debate, but it's not as neutral as you think. I agree USian doesn't sound nice indeed, but it's really your founding father's fault for not having found a proper name for your country.

    [ Parent ]
    A proper name for your country? (3.00 / 6) (#417)
    by quasipalm on Sat May 04, 2002 at 05:46:49 PM EST

    We'll call our country whatever the fuck we want. You see, this is one of the privileges of not being a British colony any longer. But thanks for the input. Perhaps we'll change it to make the English a little happier?

    And while we're busy changing the English Language today, I propose we no longer call the English English. The term could possibly confuse people about weather I'm referring to English speakers or people that live in England. Since English is the language of k5, everyone on this board right now is technically English, so why does England get dibs on the term? Because of English imperialism, that's why! They think they're the center of the world and this rhetoric is proof. From now on, I'm going to call the people of England, AWEEian (Area nortWest of EuropE-ian); it only makes sense. I agree AWEEian doesn't sound nice indeed, but it's really your founding father's fault for not having named your country different than your language.

    Oh, and you implying that "USian" doesn't carry "a political and ideological payload that is neither innocent nor harmless" and "American" does is just silly.

    (hi)
    [ Parent ]
    okay.. (1.00 / 2) (#433)
    by delmoi on Sat May 04, 2002 at 09:23:37 PM EST

    1) lighten up
    2) people from the UK are called "UKian" all the time here, and I havn't heard anyone complain.
    --
    "'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
    [ Parent ]
    I know, I know... (3.00 / 2) (#439)
    by quasipalm on Sun May 05, 2002 at 12:02:19 AM EST

    Don't get me wrong... I know it's not a big deal. But, I was just taken back by Betcour's brazen rudeness. I was on a rant, I know; arguing with ridiculousness in-kind. T'sall good. :-)

    Nothin' but love, baby.

    (hi)
    [ Parent ]
    Proper name (1.50 / 2) (#453)
    by Betcour on Sun May 05, 2002 at 03:32:25 AM EST

    You can call a kid "Jack Smith". Or you can call him C.G.J.S.M.D. (Combined Genetic of John Smith and Mary Doe). CGJSMD doesn't sound like a really proper name and to me U.S.A. doesn't sound much like a proper name either. It's not even a name, it's a bureaucratic denomination. You like it ? Fine, I've no problem with that. But then don't complain if people call you a USian.

    [ Parent ]
    Proper name (1.00 / 3) (#456)
    by Betcour on Sun May 05, 2002 at 04:43:27 AM EST

    You can call a kid "Jack Smith". Or you can call him C.G.J.S.M.D. (Combined Genetic of John Smith and Mary Doe). CGJSMD doesn't sound like a really proper name and to me U.S.A. doesn't sound much like a proper name either. It's not even a name, it's a bureaucratic denomination. You like it ? Fine, I've no problem with that. But then don't complain if people call you a USian.

    [ Parent ]
    dickhead (1.00 / 1) (#539)
    by streetlawyer on Thu May 09, 2002 at 07:23:54 AM EST

    We'll call our country whatever the fuck we want

    And so will we, USian.

    --
    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]

    The UKians have the same problem (4.00 / 2) (#458)
    by Delirium on Sun May 05, 2002 at 05:10:11 AM EST

    They're always going around calling themselves "British", implying that they own the entire British Isles (when Ireland makes up part of them).

    [ Parent ]
    Brits (2.00 / 1) (#509)
    by katie on Tue May 07, 2002 at 07:03:17 AM EST

    Yeah, we should call ourselves the "Great British" instead, that would upset a lot less people...

    [ Parent ]
    You are wrong (3.50 / 2) (#538)
    by streetlawyer on Thu May 09, 2002 at 07:23:08 AM EST

    Eire is not a British Isle; it's the Island of Ireland. The British Isles are mainland Britain, the Inner and Outer Scottish Islands, plus Anglesey, the Isle of Wight and various others I can't be bothered remembering. Ireland is not a British Isle, hence "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Also note that the Channel Islands are not British Isles and nor is the Isle of Man; they are ruled by the United Kingdom but not part of it, as evidenced by the fact that they are not part of the European Union.

    --
    Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever
    [ Parent ]
    Why I prefer USian (1.00 / 1) (#499)
    by dipipanone on Mon May 06, 2002 at 11:33:32 AM EST

    Because it gets so many small-minded people so irritated.

    That whole flag fetish thing that so many Americans have just seems *so* bizzare...

    --
    Suck my .sig
    [ Parent ]
    re: ww2 (4.33 / 3) (#337)
    by Rainy on Fri May 03, 2002 at 09:48:16 PM EST

    France did fall over real quick.. And compared to Norway etc it's a large country that had big military force and people were counting on them. But I don't think that's the main reason. France is the cultural counterpoint to US. Other european countries are too small; Japan is also small and is much more infatuated with American culture, so France is the focal point of American distrust for anything alien. Sure, there are more alient cultures but none that are healthy, rich and nuke-wielding.
    --
    Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
    huh? (none / 0) (#431)
    by delmoi on Sat May 04, 2002 at 09:19:49 PM EST

    British population: 50 million,
    French population: 50 million
    Italian population: 50 million
    German population 80 million.

    And then, of course there's china and india.
    --
    "'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
    [ Parent ]

    Small correction (none / 0) (#460)
    by nobbystyles on Sun May 05, 2002 at 05:23:41 AM EST

    60 million each for France, Italy and the UK

    [ Parent ]
    umm.. (none / 0) (#508)
    by Rainy on Mon May 06, 2002 at 06:21:41 PM EST

    Britain *did* put up a tough fight. Italy was allied with Germany. France was the country that people hoped would give Germany a bloody nose with help of Britain, and Britain did give it a lot of help but France still did very poorly. It was a push-over. When I said it had a big population in Europe, I meant on anti-german side; there are dozens of smaller countries like Sweden but nobody expected them to resist Germany for long, when you talk France - people *did* expect more from it, hence the bad rap it got.
    --
    Rainy "Collect all zero" Day
    [ Parent ]
    Quebec as the great cultural crossroads (4.20 / 5) (#339)
    by QDerf on Fri May 03, 2002 at 10:29:37 PM EST

    I'm glad I was born in Quebec, for all the cultural richness that comes from being equally exposed to French and American culture. We can, at the same time, sacrer against les maudits français and derisively comment qu'y l'ont tu l'affaire les amariquin while basking in an ever bubbling mixture of the best of American, French and British culture (while our kazaa's and morpheuses download mountains of japanese anime on our cheapo, plentiful HSE bandwith).

    yay for the giants' face-off!



    USian (3.45 / 11) (#358)
    by DarkZero on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:53:08 AM EST

    It's ironic that someone that refers to people from France by the unique word which they prefer to be called ("French") instead of a more generic term that someone else made up such as "Francian" would refuse to refer to people from the United States of America by the unique word which they prefer to be called ("American") and instead refers to them with the more generic "USian" that some asshole made up in a pathetic attempt to be clever and unpronouncable.

    Every time someone uses the term "USian" and happens to mention their own nationality, I'm going to make up a fun new word for their nationality. I'm sure the Canadese, the Mexciscans, and the Britegians will be especially fond of their funny new titles.

    you're right, you know (4.25 / 4) (#363)
    by TurboThy on Sat May 04, 2002 at 02:29:50 AM EST

    Actually, as we all know in Europe, the proper term for a resident of the United States of America is "Merkin"
    __
    'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
    [ Parent ]
    Re: USian (3.00 / 4) (#370)
    by sholden on Sat May 04, 2002 at 05:08:23 AM EST


    It's ironic that someone that refers to people from France by the unique word which they prefer to be called ("French") instead of a more generic term that someone else made up such as "Francian" would refuse to refer to people from the United States of America by the unique word which they prefer to be called ("American") and instead refers to them with the more generic "USian" that some asshole made up in a pathetic attempt to be clever and unpronouncable.

    One problem is that people sometimes refer to Canadians as Americans, and Mexicans as Americans, Argentines as Americans, etc.

    Similar to the way Chinese are sometimes refered to as Asians, and Japanese are also refered to as Asains.

    Of course the term should be 'North Americans' or 'South Americans' but people are lazy.

    America should take some notes from us, and just claim the whole damn continent as their country. You have nukes, most of them don't - it shouldn't be too hard :)

    Mind you the cia says 'frenchman' and 'frenchwoman' are the approprate nouns :)
     

    --
    The world's dullest web page


    [ Parent ]
    Why not? (3.00 / 1) (#403)
    by rodoke3 on Sat May 04, 2002 at 12:56:36 PM EST

    At the university I go to, there are a lot of people that come from Chicago.  They've gotten pretty used to me calling them "those damn Chicagonese!"

    I take umbrage with such statments and am induced to pull out archaic and over pompous words to refute such insipid vitriol. -- kerinsky


    [ Parent ]
    Well.... (3.50 / 2) (#405)
    by BloodmoonACK on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:21:05 PM EST

    I believe that he probably heard it here. As a "USian" myself, I honestly don't mind it; but I agree, it is unpronouncable and prefer American or even Merkin =P

    "It's like declaring a 'war on crime' and then claiming every (accused) thief is an 'enemy combatant'." - Hizonner
    [ Parent ]

    well (5.00 / 1) (#430)
    by delmoi on Sat May 04, 2002 at 09:16:26 PM EST

    The name of france, technicaly is "Republique Francaise" so perhaps they aught to be called "RFians"
    --
    "'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
    [ Parent ]
    RFians (3.00 / 1) (#432)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 09:22:01 PM EST

    Hey, that rolls off the tongue nicely, Rrrrrrffians. Yet another proof of the innate superiority of French ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    personally... (5.00 / 1) (#493)
    by Shren on Mon May 06, 2002 at 09:20:13 AM EST

    I thought it was rather humorously close to WTFians.

    [ Parent ]
    Indeed... (none / 0) (#497)
    by dipipanone on Mon May 06, 2002 at 11:25:18 AM EST

    We've been referring to the French as ruffians since time immemorial.

    --
    Suck my .sig
    [ Parent ]
    Everyone need a scapegoat =P (3.50 / 2) (#360)
    by Kasreyn on Sat May 04, 2002 at 02:10:38 AM EST

    Besides, don't worry. Ever since the South Park movie, our new scapegoat has been Canada. ^_^

    Seriously though, I personally have never seen the point in the anti-France thing, but they DO seem revoltingly stuck on themselves at times... maybe that's just the popular image of them, I've never been to France so I could very easily be mistaken.

    I think if *any* country has the right to preen themselves on the world stage for having an old and elegant culture, it's the Chinese or Indians. They were civilized when France was an ignorant hinterland full of barbarians. =P France's only claims to fame are their cuisine and their odd-sounding language.


    -Kasreyn

    P.S. Oh yeah, and the way they surrendur. ^_^ (giggles)
    "Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
    We never asked to be born in the first place."

    R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
    Nèg yo pa renmen franse yo akòz esklavaj (3.00 / 2) (#369)
    by ti jean on Sat May 04, 2002 at 04:08:48 AM EST

    Franse yo te prann anpil afriken pote nan Amerik (kontinan an, pa nasyon an). Wi, yo te achtè yo e yo vin met yo travay nan Peyi Dayiti e anpil lot peyi isit. Se pou sa m' pa renmen yo-- se esklav zanset mwen te ye, akòz Franse yo.

    et bin voila (none / 0) (#376)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 05:48:38 AM EST

    on se comprend tres bien entre nous!

    [ Parent ]

    Hunh? (none / 0) (#478)
    by rodoke3 on Sun May 05, 2002 at 02:40:13 PM EST

    Est-ce que vous nous donnez un traduction en anglais?  Quelle langue parlez-vous?  

    I take umbrage with such statments and am induced to pull out archaic and over pompous words to refute such insipid vitriol. -- kerinsky


    [ Parent ]
    Great Article (4.25 / 4) (#378)
    by isobars on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:28:43 AM EST

    Well actually i think the article is basically rubbish, but hey... what a thread!

    USian or whatever, ever thought he might be *intentionally* winding you guys up? Its very funny to see the posts of outrage on this one little word.

    Don't mod this down... i just voted +1 because the discussion is hilarious. True the artcile is probably a troll, but anyway LAUGH!

    I think the reason the Americans (i'm being nice) hate the French is because theyre guilty of repeatedly being... well... different and FRENCH that's enough surely? All countries have their pet hates.

    A better question must be why do the British hate the Americans so (despite whatever President Blair might think). I expect a follow up article!

    I can see the author of this piece chuckling away...



    He who laughs last... Hasnt Seen the Cattle Prod
    on american/british rivalry (5.00 / 2) (#380)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:39:04 AM EST

    Well, I'm French so I can't speak for the brits here, but I think you've said it all, really, by mentioning president Blair.

    [ Parent ]
    Might do (none / 0) (#382)
    by nobbystyles on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:48:53 AM EST

    A more serious article on the British-USian relationship and probably without the word USian as we've trolled that to death...

    [ Parent ]
    Svenskar borde också vara hatade (3.50 / 2) (#387)
    by p0ppe on Sat May 04, 2002 at 07:25:01 AM EST

    Precis, svenskar borde också vara hatade av amerikanerna. Er så kallade neutralitet är ett skämt, en massa svenskar stred för Nazi-Tyskland, och ni stödde dem med stål. Fy!


    "Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."
    Sug min 30cm kuk (none / 0) (#391)
    by Hong Kong Phooey on Sat May 04, 2002 at 10:16:53 AM EST

    Men ni dansksvin har ju en nasse-regering nu.  Dessutom har ni mage att kräva att vi ska stänga våra rena fina kärnkraftverk samtidigt som ni spyr ut rök från era kolkraftverk.

    Med plutonium tvingar vi dansken på knä.  Danskjävlar!

    [ Parent ]

    Vadå Danskjävel, Svenskjävel (none / 0) (#395)
    by p0ppe on Sat May 04, 2002 at 11:15:43 AM EST

    Jag är faktiskt från Finland, och jag tänker inte röra din 30 cm's kuk, jävla svenskjävel.


    "Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."
    [ Parent ]
    Re: Vadå Danskjävel, Svenskjävel (none / 0) (#397)
    by zerblat on Sat May 04, 2002 at 11:46:17 AM EST

    And on whose side was Finland during the Continuation War?

    [ Parent ]
    Choice? (none / 0) (#465)
    by p0ppe on Sun May 05, 2002 at 07:02:16 AM EST

    Finland didn't really have too much choice. It was either to comply with the Soviets and lose our independence, or work with the Germans. We chose the least bad (for Finland that is) out of two bad.


    "Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."
    [ Parent ]
    Ha (none / 0) (#398)
    by Hong Kong Phooey on Sat May 04, 2002 at 11:49:27 AM EST

    Finland var ju Sovjetisk lydstat ända fram till Sovjets kollaps.

    [ Parent ]
    de er det (none / 0) (#408)
    by alge on Sat May 04, 2002 at 01:55:20 PM EST

    Alle hater da svensker? Og hele EU, mens vi er i gang.. Brenn i helvete, alle sammen. Å, mens vi er i gang! Alle religiøse, alle heteroene. osv.

    vi er ikke lenger elsket her

    [ Parent ]
    Was dieses muß frei-amerikanische Relationen? (none / 0) (#429)
    by delmoi on Sat May 04, 2002 at 09:10:55 PM EST

    nt
    --
    "'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
    [ Parent ]
    Inget ont som inte för något gott med sig (none / 0) (#464)
    by murklamannen on Sun May 05, 2002 at 06:07:33 AM EST

    Visserligen exporterade vi järn osv., men vad skulle ha hänt ifall vi vägrade och övergav vår neutralitet? Tyskarna skulle kunna invadera Sverige utan några som helst problem ändå, det skulle inte förändra krigsförloppet.

    Däremot skulle alla finska, norska, danska och baltiska flyktingar inte ha någonstans att ta vägen. Många danska judar togs över öresund till Sverige av fiskare innan tyskarna kom. Massor av balter flydde från ryssarna till Sverige. Min farmor, som bor i Norrland, tog själv emot krigsfångar som gått till fots över fjällen från fånglägret i Narvik.



    [ Parent ]
    (translation) (5.00 / 2) (#470)
    by Raindoll on Sun May 05, 2002 at 10:09:59 AM EST

    p0ppe: Swedes should also be hated
    Right. Swedes should also be hated by the Americans. You so-called neutrality is a joke, a lot of Swedes fought for Nazi-Germany, and you supported them with steel. Shame!

    • murklamannen:No evil that doesn't bring good
      On one hand, we exported iron etc, but what should have happened if we would have refused and abandoned our neutrality? The Germans would have been able to invade Sweden with no problems whatsoever anyway, it would not have changed the outcome of the war.

      On the other hand, no Finnish, Norwegian, Danish and baltic refugees would have had anywhere to go. Many Danish jews where helped to Sweden by fishermen before the Germans came. Many baltics fled the Russians to Sweden. My grandmother, who lives in Norrland [Northern Sweden] herself helped war refugees who had walked on foot over the mountains from the prison-camp in Narvik.

    • Hong Kong Phooey:Suck my 12 inch dick
      But you Danish pigs have a Nazi government now. You also have the guts to demand that we should close our clean nice nuclear power plants while you spew out smoke from your coal-burning plants.

      With plutonium, we bring the Danish to his knees. Danish Bastards!

      • p0ppe:What Danish Bastard, you Swedish Bastard
        I am actually from Finland, and I am not touching your 12-inch dick, you Swedish Bastard.
    Ha ha.. LOL.

    [ Parent ]
    100% of all the French people I've met... (3.50 / 6) (#390)
    by BinaryTree on Sat May 04, 2002 at 10:06:33 AM EST

    ...were extremely rude. Both of them.

    This French(-speaking) couple behind me in a line at an airport years ago alternated between making out in public and scowling at me every 5 minutes.

























    Perhaps I need to stop masturbating in public.

    well... (none / 0) (#424)
    by martingale on Sat May 04, 2002 at 08:17:21 PM EST

    You shouldn't have stared slackjawed like that for minutes on end, then.

    [ Parent ]

    I was mugged by a black man (none / 0) (#506)
    by broken77 on Mon May 06, 2002 at 05:54:55 PM EST

    Therefore, all black men are criminals. I mean, come on. Are you actually serious?

    I'm starting to doubt all this happy propaganda about Islam being a religion of peace. Heck, it's just as bad as Christianity. -- Dphitz
    [ Parent ]

    The French (4.00 / 4) (#400)
    by USian on Sat May 04, 2002 at 11:57:33 AM EST

    Personally, I have never really hated the French.

    I don't have much respect for their political policies, but I don't hate them.

    Sure, I laugh at their baseless pretentious preening and the exaggerated upturning of their collective noses over all things USian (movies, food, fashion, wine, Disney), but hate them? No.

    The French remind me of a simpering teenage girl that knows she has more culture and class than her friend, but can't understand why everyone likes her friend (the US), better. Poor France is constantly left holding the bag and jumping up and down screaming "I AM BETTER THAN HER!" until some adult comes along and sooths her wounded ego.


    "I just wish all spam would be so flattering, instead of telling me I have a small penis all the time."
    Comment by ChiPHeaD

    Opposite day (5.00 / 1) (#507)
    by broken77 on Mon May 06, 2002 at 06:04:35 PM EST

    I don't have much respect for their political policies
    This is one of the things I respect them for. For one, their voting system is superior to ours. If they had our system, they might have ended up with a right-wing nut like we did.
    Sure, I laugh at their baseless pretentious preening and the exaggerated upturning of their collective noses over all things USian (movies, food, fashion, wine, Disney)
    This is one of the great things I respect them for. They have their own culture and ideas. Why should they adopt ours? News flash. Ours SUCK! Our food sucks. Our fashion sucks (what fasion? Tommy fucking Hilfiger?) Our culture sucks (what culture? sit-coms? cheeseburgers? mindless blockbuster movies? racism? sexism?) Disney sucks. I don't even feel the need to go into why... They're wrong on our wine though. We actually make some good wine in Sonoma and Napa. I think you'll find the the more enlightened French would admit this. And yes, we have great cuisine and fashion in our Metropolitan areas. But this is not "the norm".
    The French remind me of a simpering teenage girl that knows she has more culture and class than her friend, but can't understand why everyone likes her friend (the US), better.
    Their attitudes remind me of someone traveling from a Metro U.S. (east coast, west coast, or chicago) city to hickville, midwest, USA, looking around, and going "man, this place sucks". Yet we all continue to refer to this section of the country affectionately as "the heartland".

    I'm starting to doubt all this happy propaganda about Islam being a religion of peace. Heck, it's just as bad as Christianity. -- Dphitz
    [ Parent ]

    Someone save us from the fascists, please. (4.53 / 13) (#411)
    by bc on Sat May 04, 2002 at 03:09:14 PM EST

    Why the hell is this article full of pissing&moaning about the word "USian"? What is up with the fascist appeals to authority and all this "not a word" shit?

    Yes, it isn't in the OED. So what. Only some sort of authoritarian nutcase (ie, a typical k5 liberal) would take this to mean that it somehow "isn't a word" and somehow should not be used anywhere, by anyone.

    It is only a pity that nobbystyles didn't follow cp's suggestion and use the word "united-statesian," a word that is in the OED, and is, by the logic of the superstitious morons crowding out this article with bullshit moaning, must therefore certainly and absolutely be a word because it has been given the seal of approval by a cabal of Oxford dons.

    I wonder how many computer terms are used daily on this site that are not in the OED and yet recieve no criticism? Probably thousands.

    Sensible people realise that what defines a word is what is commonly understood between a group of people, and the stupid, fascist attitude of "oh, only this select group of people define what is a word" has given rise to everything from the Academy Francais to out&out totalitarianism.

    ♥, bc.

    Yes and no (5.00 / 2) (#523)
    by SporranBoy on Tue May 07, 2002 at 10:53:50 PM EST

    On the one hand I agree with regarding linguistic fascists yet I suspect I may one myself.

    I wince when I read nouns used as verbs e.g. I am going to product/architect a new system ( I read that here the other day ).

    I also groan when the incorrect use of a word gains sufficient momentum as to become common parlance, to wit the acquired USian meaning of "momentarily" which should meaning during a brief period of time but now means after a brief period of time.

    Another classic, is "disbursed" which gets used all over the place in US technical literature in place of "dispersed". Linguistic evolution through crass ignorance is galling to me.

    USian doesn't irk me because it is new and has a clear, unambiguous meaning. It is preferable to "American", in the opinion of this non USian, because the latter is an arrogant usurpation of a term which should apply to any born on the land mass known as America, the continent which starts "way down South Argentina way" and extends to Canada. I guess the root issue was a singular lack of originality when coming up with a name for a new country.

    American friends of mine from Ecuador keep pulling me up on my use of "America" when I mean to say the United States of America. I suppose a people can use whatever word they like to refer to their country and themselves but it does rather suggest a total disregard for everyone else on the continent.

    [ Parent ]
    It's the accent exchange rate (5.00 / 6) (#421)
    by humpasaur on Sat May 04, 2002 at 06:51:49 PM EST

    When wimpy French dudes come over here, all the girls fawn over them and their girly foo foo accents. Yet when Americans go over to France, they get treated rudely and yelled at about the death penalty to the point where they pretend to be Canadians.
    ----

    *sigh* Must I explain FURTHER?

    Well that's easy to explain: (none / 0) (#496)
    by MKalus on Mon May 06, 2002 at 11:21:24 AM EST

    The french guys at least try to speak english.

    Speaking as a guy, living in a foreign country WITH an accent: It gives you points with the ladies.

    Michael

    [ Parent ]

    Lyrics from Rowan Atkinson... (5.00 / 2) (#422)
    by Mzilikazi on Sat May 04, 2002 at 07:54:41 PM EST

    I'm American, and don't particularly love or hate the French. Someone once said that it's much more enjoyable to hate people on an individual basis. :) The few French I've met seemed to be decent enough people, and some of my ancestors are French, and it seemed like my European history classes in high school tended to be at least half French history, but I'm still just kind of indifferent to the nation and its people as a whole. I would love someday to spend a month just eating in Provence, and maybe a week or so camping in the Dordogne or Ardennes, where my grandfather fought in WWI. But back to my subject line here...

    Rowan Atkinson had a song on his "Live in Belfast" album called "Why I Hate The French". You can read all the lyrics and listen to a portion of it in Real Audio here:
    Why I Hate The French

    The song is hilarious... The whole album is worth a listen if you ever have the chance.

    Cheers,
    Mzilikazi

    The Compeigne Railcar Museum (5.00 / 3) (#436)
    by MineMine on Sat May 04, 2002 at 10:52:37 PM EST

    The Allies forced the Germans to sign the WWI armistice in a railroad car near Compiegne (sp?) France.

    When the Axes defeated France in WWII, they dug out the same railroad car, placed it on the very same spot, and made them sign the capitulation there You've probably seen the famous newsreel photo of Hitler leaving the car. The photographer spliced it in a loop to make him look like he was dancing comically.

    The French erected a museum on that spot after the war, with the railroad car its prime exhibit.

    The point? Its a WWI museum. WWII is never once mentioned there.

    I'd never say I hate the French. But I most certainly don't agree with many of their attitudes, like those expressed by that museum.

    I'd like to buy that railcar for a McDonald's (nt) (3.00 / 2) (#437)
    by pyramid termite on Sat May 04, 2002 at 11:32:18 PM EST


    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    For shame... (3.00 / 3) (#448)
    by influx on Sun May 05, 2002 at 02:50:37 AM EST

    This thread has k5 showing its true colors, as all the Europeans come out with their tired American stereotypes for an extended bashing. I love how you all paint yourselves as being superior to America, but all you seem to talk about is the United States.

    Maybe once you get over the fact that America is the big kid on the block for the moment, you'd be able to get that quaint little European Union going somewhere. However, considering the voilence, genocide, plagues, and destruction that Europe has brought the world throughout history, I'm still skeptical.

    ---
    The more you know, the less you understand.

    The United Colonies of Europe (2.50 / 2) (#451)
    by EBNF on Sun May 05, 2002 at 02:57:55 AM EST

    We Americans just need to extract our debts from Europe in a large land grab, lead by Governor Bush. I propose we call this new outreach program: Operation Deoderant. We can clean up all those stinky europeans in one fell swoop.
    From nothing came EBNF, from EBNF came nothing.
    [ Parent ]
    Erm (3.00 / 2) (#455)
    by nobbystyles on Sun May 05, 2002 at 04:38:36 AM EST

    I think there was critiscm of France, the UK and most of Europe in the article. If you find anyone highly offensive having a mild and humourous dig at some of the prensions of the USians, then you must try and get a life ASAP...  

    [ Parent ]
    Erm (none / 0) (#462)
    by influx on Sun May 05, 2002 at 05:46:05 AM EST

    So where do you call home?

    ---
    The more you know, the less you understand.
    [ Parent ]
    If you read the article intro (none / 0) (#466)
    by nobbystyles on Sun May 05, 2002 at 07:26:38 AM EST

    A bit more carefully then you'll see where i am from...

    [ Parent ]
    I wonder.. (2.60 / 5) (#454)
    by kitten on Sun May 05, 2002 at 04:30:53 AM EST

    I wonder, nobbystyles, what it's like to be a complete and total moron. Since you obviously have firsthand experience, perhaps you could tell me a bit about it. When you're a moron, do you realize you're a moron? When you're sitting there spewing forth a torrent of useless nonsense about an idiotic topic for no other reason than to annoy people, does it ever occur to you to take a step back and say "Fuck, I'm a moron"? Or is part of being a moron that you don't even realize it?
    mirrorshades radio - darkwave, synthpop, industrial, futurepop.
    Disagree (3.25 / 4) (#461)
    by nobbystyles on Sun May 05, 2002 at 05:29:13 AM EST

    If it's such a bad article, how come it's on the section page. And why did 361 people implicitly disagree with your thesis and vote for the article?

    Also an ad hominem attack without any actual attempt at debate is so Slashdot-like, man. I thought we were more grown up here?

    [ Parent ]

    Idiot. (none / 0) (#489)
    by kitten on Sun May 05, 2002 at 08:03:32 PM EST

    If it's such a bad article, how come it's on the section page.

    With an awe-inspiring score of 10? Because it hung around in the queue too long and got spammed after it's 36-hour run or whatever.

    I thought we were more grown up here?

    Sorry, if you want to be Grown Up (TM), you should have gone to adequacy, which is where garbage of this caliber belongs in the first place.
    mirrorshades radio - darkwave, synthpop, industrial, futurepop.
    [ Parent ]
    That's nothing (5.00 / 1) (#468)
    by pyramid termite on Sun May 05, 2002 at 09:19:17 AM EST

    I wonder, nobbystyles, what it's like to be a complete and total moron.

    I wonder what it's like to be French. (shudder)
    On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
    [ Parent ]
    Plagiarism notice (none / 0) (#479)
    by gbd on Sun May 05, 2002 at 03:09:33 PM EST

    Note: This cute little diatribe is copied more or less directly from a piece of Brad Pitt dialog from the Movie Se7en:

    I've been trying to figure something in my head, and maybe you can help me out, yeah? When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading "Guns and Ammo", masturbating in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how fucking crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that?

    --
    Gunter glieben glauchen globen.
    [ Parent ]

    Actually, (none / 0) (#488)
    by kitten on Sun May 05, 2002 at 07:55:59 PM EST

    It isn't. You aren't the first to point out the similarity, but I've been using the general gist of that comment for years now. I'm sure it's archived in some form or another in my site, somewhere, but I really don't feel the need to comb through backyears of archives just to prove it. If you care that much, you're more than welcome to.
    mirrorshades radio - darkwave, synthpop, industrial, futurepop.
    [ Parent ]
    Beg to differ (5.00 / 1) (#518)
    by SporranBoy on Tue May 07, 2002 at 05:51:11 PM EST

    Moron - no such thing sir!

    Mr Styles is quite clearly a comic genius the like of which hasn't been since since my last bowel movement.

    Oh the originality, the verve, the Wildian wit!

    Even his pseudonym NobbyStyles is provokes a fit of uncontrollable giggling to any man of heightened sesibility.

    Please Mr. styles, wail away with reckless abandon. I for one would be willing to subscribe to a satirical publication if you were to deign to humour us with more of your scathing observations on a regular basis. Please print my copy on extra soft 3-ply, recycled of course ( like your ideas ).

    [ Parent ]

    Corrections (none / 0) (#520)
    by SporranBoy on Tue May 07, 2002 at 07:43:51 PM EST

    For those who care, I of course should have said "whale away" rather than "wail away" ( although my error did produce a fairly appropriate if inadvertent change in meaning ).

    [ Parent ]
    Russia DID collaborate with Germany (4.00 / 2) (#457)
    by Quietti on Sun May 05, 2002 at 04:57:25 AM EST

    Hitler and Stalin's plan was to split Europe in two. Fast forward to the end of the war, once Hitler turned his back on all of his allies and... Churchill and Stalin's plan for ending the war was also to split Europe in two.

    If I were a Czech, Estonian or Latvian, I'd have more resons to hate Brits for not responding to East Europe's cry for help when the Nazis invaded them, only to end up handing those countries to the Soviets on a golden platter, than I would have to hate Americans, historically speaking.



    --
    The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky
    russia and gerrmany (none / 0) (#491)
    by crazycanuck on Mon May 06, 2002 at 08:43:45 AM EST

    the ribentropp-molotov non-agression pact was a facade.
    both the russians and the germans knew one day they'd go to War.
    Hitler was always interested in conquering the huge lands in the East, and he always attacked the commnists and the slavs in his speeches.
    The reason they signed the pact is simple: Hitler was fighting the West and couldn't afford to fight a war on two fronts at that time.
    A treaty with Russia would allow him to take the bulk of the army to the western front. if he didn't have this pact he'd have to leave a substantial part of the army on the eastern border to protect against possible russian attack.

    the russians needed this because at the time they weren't ready to fight germany. they needed time to prepare.

    the pact was just a delay

    [ Parent ]

    Why do the French hate the USians so ? (5.00 / 6) (#472)
    by gouyou on Sun May 05, 2002 at 11:34:47 AM EST

    There are several reason, but the first is the way that the US rule the world:
    0. Monroe's doctrine: the american continent is the playground of the USians: "Don't bother us if we control every government there, even if it's a dictature"
    1. "We are the king of the world: we decide who is the bad guy who is the good guy ! and better follow us we have a lot of money !" see Palestine, Afghanistan (not that I support the taliban, but IIRC they found the first proof there), Grenada (where they just blocked any action from the UN applying an international law against them), Nicaragua
    2. "Star Wars" like project (in the past and today)
    3. the cold war and the 'non-alignement' doctrine (Gal De Gaulle was one of the leader of the country saying Fsck off US ! Fsck off USSR !)
    4. ...
    Too many things to tell but to make it short US arrogance !!!

    BTW I'm french and I don't like France too for similar reason, USians are not the only one with this type of problems ;)

    el gouyou

    Pretention and Arrogance (2.00 / 4) (#473)
    by Woundweavr on Sun May 05, 2002 at 11:43:46 AM EST

    I'll quote Jon Stewart of "The Daily Show." "The French: even when they're right they're pretentious." For one thing, Americans don't like the snobbish, arrogant air that the stereotypical French person carries about on the cloud of smoke from his cig. France thinks its the be all, end all of everything. The problem with that is they can't back it up. France is a legend in its own mind.

    France was a major cause of WWII. The Treaty of Versaille was ridiculously punitive against the Germans, because of the French. There was literally no way that the Germans could rebuild under that treaty. This allowed Hitler to come to power(and break that treaty). Then there was the whole appeasement deal. Granted that was more the UKs fault, Chamberlain is the only UK PM other than Churchill to get such a strong US responce, but they resisted so it was forgiven and forgotten. France was conquered in under a month.

    Yet France still pretended to be a major power. It set itself against NATO, knowing even though it didn't respect the group and its military command structures, it would still have all the protection afforded by it and the US nuclear arsenel. It set itself in a rivalry against the US, contradicting it more out of contrariness than any real reason. De Gaulle was behind alot of this and rather than make a long argument, I'll be lazy and give some (de Gaulle) quotes to show the French national attitude that he personified.

    • "France cannot be France without greatness."
    • "Treaties are like roses and young girls. They last while they last."
    • "In politics it is necessary either to betray one's country or the electorate. I prefer to betray the electorate."
    • "I am France"
    Plus, France has a tendency for centralization of power and restricting more freedoms (in 95 a book wasn't allowed to enter France because it was "anti-French" for instance) which is another strike.

    So why do American's hate the French? Because they are snobby, arrogant weaklings with delusions of grandeur. Unfair? Possibly, maybe even probably. But there is definitely a core of truth there.

    Appeasement (3.50 / 2) (#474)
    by nobbystyles on Sun May 05, 2002 at 11:54:36 AM EST

    The US was guilty of that during the 1930s certainly up to 1940 with the Japs. Also the european appeasers were praised in the US at the time.

    I think no government of any major power came out of the 1930s very well at all. but it's understandable.

    If your country's economy has basically collapsed, suffered millions of dead from the world war and you think that the bomber will always get through, then you would be prepared to have peace at virtually any price.

    [ Parent ]

    Some points about WW2 and more (5.00 / 3) (#480)
    by gouyou on Sun May 05, 2002 at 03:31:28 PM EST

    People knowing a little bit more about history would also take a look at the role of US, and most of the european country.
    The WW2 was on the way when the US and ALL european country let Germany construct weapons. *No one* said no to Hitler when he started to reconstruct the german arsenal and to prepare his wars. *No one* said no to Hitler when he tried out his new weapons in Spain against the republican. *No one* said no when in annexed Austria. *No one* said no when he invaded the Czech.
    Concerning the crisis from 29, Italy was subject to the same problem than Germany, italian people chose fascism, but italian received money from the war. I don't deny that that the treaty from Versailles was a factor, but it's only one between many. France, UK, ... could also have choosen fascism, but the brown plague didn't succeed ...

    Now about the french being arrogant, yep of course we are, but less than the US. It was proven recently with the war on terrorism. US said this are the bad guy, we'll go there and just kick there ass, and BTW if we make prisonners we can do what we want with them, we do not have to care about the treaties we signed and about the international laws.
    France is a bad country for a lot of things, especially its centralism and its administrative aristocraty, but it's still better than the US concerning the human rights, and concerning such things as privacy, social insurance, ...

    A french guy was saying: "Do you know why we choosed a cock as mascot, it's the only bird managing to sing with the foot in sh*t !"

    el gouyou

    [ Parent ]
    A small problem (none / 0) (#504)
    by trhurler on Mon May 06, 2002 at 01:43:28 PM EST

    I hate seeing people say "this or that country is better on rights," because the statement is empty. In every case, two things are true.

    First, the country in question(including the US, France, and all others,) is so bad in the rights area by any reasonable measure that bragging on it is pathetic.

    Second, "rights" are defined by the person saying the sentence to mean whatever makes him right. Those in socialist countries think health care and jobs are rights; those in the US(a less socialist country) laugh at socialist attempts to regulate everything from language to what people can read or see on a screen. Odds are that African people probably think of rights mostly in terms of not being mutilated or killed or raped by the next rebel uprising, if they think about them at all.

    The term "human rights" is generally used in a despicable manner. It usually means "entitlements paid for at other peoples' expense and given the name rights as part of a moral subterfuge aimed at preventing people from feeling guilty for living off other peoples' seized goods."

    --
    'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

    [ Parent ]
    Redirect (none / 0) (#521)
    by SporranBoy on Tue May 07, 2002 at 08:20:12 PM EST

    I don't think it is really fair to use the example of over-regulation as a vice of socialist countries ( Note to gringos, socialist doesn't mean communist among those of who suffer the misfortune of not being USian - I think USer is better ).

    I live in Florida and I can assure you that they are just as nutty about regulations over here as they are anywhere else.

    The motives are different but the end results are the same. I guess the diverse social makeup of the country, with resultant lack of cohesiveness, and the fact that there a lot of "head the balls" in circulation, justify their law-crazy ways. Of course they also have a lot of lawyers to keep employed and their colleagues on Capitol Hill like to oblige members of the profession.

    [ Parent ]

    Dear dear.. (none / 0) (#522)
    by SporranBoy on Tue May 07, 2002 at 08:35:19 PM EST

    I have actually lived and worked in France.

    I have to admit to having a problem or two with a fair few work mates and to not enjoying rubbing shoulder with Parisians all that much.

    They have their ways that do tend to cause friction with anglo-saxons - office handshaking marathons that go on from 9am until 11am for example.

    However, it has been said that the French South of the Loire are much nicer and that has indeed been my experience.

    In truth the world would not be a better place without them, even if many are pretentious pseudo-intellectual whining winos. They do have a fairly unique take on the world which manifests itself in literature and cinema which gives me far more enjoyment than the showy stuff produced by the U.S.

    It's also fair to say that you guys wouldn't be around in the form you presently find yourselves where it not for the like of Voltaire, Diderot, Montesquieu, Rousseau etc.,  albeit that Washington and the boys, in typical US fashion, put their borrowed ideas into action while the Frogs where still at the dinner table arguing.

    [ Parent ]

    Chirac won tonite by 82% (none / 0) (#482)
    by cem on Sun May 05, 2002 at 05:21:05 PM EST

    Participation was about 80%.

    Le Pen said, Chirac won thru bolshewistic propaganda *?????* ...

    Well, ... Commedie Francaise! ;)


    Young Tarzan: I'll be the best ape ever!

    I think the trolls... (none / 0) (#492)
    by Shren on Mon May 06, 2002 at 09:14:24 AM EST

    Hang out in some shady irc channel and post bets as to who can cause the most posts with the shortest troll. The true troll mastazas can cause well over 500 (by the time the topic is finished) responses to a half page of thoughtless crap. (Actually, it's very well thought out crap, but only from the point of view of causing the most posts.) Other trolls must consider them elite.

    Don't think so (none / 0) (#498)
    by nobbystyles on Mon May 06, 2002 at 11:33:07 AM EST

    I never use IRC and I am not part of any troll cabal. I never trolled on Slashdot and I don't post on Adequacy either.  

    I am just a normal guy trying to get a good debate going on a topic that interests.  

    [ Parent ]

    ok... (none / 0) (#500)
    by Shren on Mon May 06, 2002 at 11:52:14 AM EST

    I'll take that at face value, even if I do think you represent the secret Troll Cabal.

    So, what about this particular topic interests you? Do you fear some kind of clash between the French and the Americans, built upon years of slowly simmering hatred between the US and France? Will New Orleans become the world's next Palestine? Is there some kind of deep seated issue here which I've been carelessly missing for years? Did the French take enough offense from the Paris levels of Deus Ex to form some kind of deep hatred for all things from the 50 states?

    [ Parent ]

    Not a troll (5.00 / 2) (#517)
    by TheophileEscargot on Tue May 07, 2002 at 12:21:52 PM EST

    There was actually an article in today's Sunday Times addressing the same issue, the peculiar surge of anti-French sentiment in the US.
    ...many Americans saw in Jean-Marie Le Pen confirmation of what they already believed: France is an essentially untrustworthy, hypocritical repository of posers and bigots.

    In the war of independence, France was America's key ally against the British. Both republics point to the Enlightenment as their founding influences, and up until President Kennedy, France was regarded as the centre of culture to which Americans paid obeisance.

    In the past few decades, however, distance from France has deepened into hostility not merely among elites, but also among ordinary Americans.

    The next great question is of course, why USians think using an unsanctioned abbreviation automatically makes someone a troll...
    ----
    Support the nascent Mad Open Science movement... when we talk about "hundreds of eyeballs," we really mean it. Lagged2Death
    [ Parent ]
    I don't know (none / 0) (#545)
    by Shren on Mon May 13, 2002 at 09:24:02 AM EST

    Point taken. Even though the average US K5 user probably doesn't hate the French, we do a lot of "point and laugh" commentary on the rest of society here.

    The next great question is of course, why USians think using an unsanctioned abbreviation automatically makes someone a troll...

    I don't get that either. Why care?

    [ Parent ]

    USians vs French (none / 0) (#502)
    by Arcadio on Mon May 06, 2002 at 12:34:05 PM EST

    Maybe we hate them so because they call us USians.

    Seriously, I suspect the reason Americans hate the French is just because everyone wants to fit in.  You friend hates the French, and you want to fit in, so you hate them too.  That they speak another language just makes them more strange and easier to hate.  


    Because (4.00 / 2) (#519)
    by Cro Magnon on Tue May 07, 2002 at 05:59:19 PM EST

    France is the only nation on Earth that's more arrogant than we are.
    Information wants to be beer.
    ww2: you forgot the Greeks! (5.00 / 2) (#524)
    by johwsun on Wed May 08, 2002 at 07:18:34 AM EST

    I will endeavour to answer these serious charges:

    Everyone in Europe surrendered to and/or collaborated with the Germans during second world war bar the Brits and Russians.

    You forgot the Greeks! Greeks, after winning Italians, they have been attacked by Germans, they fought and lost, but they did not surrender! Thats why we have in our country plenty of monuments of people killed during the german occupation. Greeks also almost won Germans in the fight of Crete, where the whole parachutist regiment has been destroyed.
    Thats why Churchill said: "We should not say that Greeks fought like heros. For now on, we should say that heros are fighting like Greeks."

    Please dont forget our small country when talking for ww2, and dont say that we surrendered.

    also we had the highest percentage of deaths... (none / 0) (#525)
    by johwsun on Wed May 08, 2002 at 07:39:07 AM EST

    ..comparing to our population, from all the other states that fought Germany and Italy during ww2.
    Russians came seconds on death percentage in ww2. Of course russians had the higher absolute number of deaths.

    [ Parent ]
    Poland (none / 0) (#526)
    by nobbystyles on Wed May 08, 2002 at 08:01:49 AM EST

    Had the highest percentage of it's population killed at around 18% and i think also Yugoslavia comes higher...

    [ Parent ]
    ..I dont think you are right... (none / 0) (#527)
    by johwsun on Wed May 08, 2002 at 08:26:28 AM EST

    ..I ll check to the history book and I ll tell you the percentages.

    [ Parent ]
    death percentage on soldiers and rebel population. (none / 0) (#528)
    by johwsun on Wed May 08, 2002 at 08:49:22 AM EST

    I am talking about the death percentage on soldiers and rebel population (after the occupation).

    You are talking about death percentage on non-combatant population, due to the genocide plan of the nazi. ( nazi camps e.t.c)
    Nazi did not have a genocide plan for the greeks, except of the jew greeks.

    So we are both right. I ll check the precentage to give you a more accurate number.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (none / 0) (#529)
    by nobbystyles on Wed May 08, 2002 at 08:51:03 AM EST

    I stil think Yugoslavia comes higher than Greece even in that case. They had a very fierce partisan war there...

    [ Parent ]
    ...source? can you point to a url? (none / 0) (#530)
    by johwsun on Wed May 08, 2002 at 10:31:03 AM EST

    ..what is the source of your information? Do you know a url mentioning the casualties percentage among rebels and soldiers.

    My information comes from a greek history book I have not with me right now.

    [ Parent ]

    List of casualty figures (5.00 / 1) (#531)
    by nobbystyles on Wed May 08, 2002 at 10:45:03 AM EST

    1,706,000 Yugoslavian casualties (10.9% of pre-war) from all causes/

    470,000 Greek casualties (20,000 military, 450,000 civilian). Book doesn't give % of prewar.

    6 million Poles from all causes (17.2% of pre-war)

    From Appendix 2 of 'Hitler And Stalin' - Paralell Lives' by Alan Bullock.



    [ Parent ]
    You cited your source! (none / 0) (#543)
    by Profane Motherfucker on Fri May 10, 2002 at 10:17:41 AM EST

    Rock on, motherfucker! I'm impressed.

    [ Parent ]
    .. a ww II casualties url... (none / 0) (#532)
    by johwsun on Wed May 08, 2002 at 10:55:48 AM EST

    this is the first I found.. ww II casualties
    Look at Greece, they said we had 520.000 deads, among a population of 7.000.000 people (counted at 1951) .
    Most of the deads were soldiers or rebel population, as long as genocide did not take place.

    [ Parent ]
    That make's it 7.8% (none / 0) (#533)
    by nobbystyles on Wed May 08, 2002 at 10:58:20 AM EST

    Still lower than Yugoslavia...

    [ Parent ]
    ..yes... (none / 0) (#534)
    by johwsun on Wed May 08, 2002 at 11:13:59 AM EST

    You are right, Greece has lower percentage than Yugoslavia, according the pointed url.

    But may I ask: All of the 1.400.000 of civilian deads in yugoslavia were all rebel ones? or a genocide took place there? Because here in greece almost all were rebel or soldier ones.

    anyway...

    note: Actually I just found that at 1941 greece were 7.100.000 people.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes but (none / 0) (#535)
    by nobbystyles on Wed May 08, 2002 at 11:16:39 AM EST

    I don't think the Greek rebel army was half a million strong either.

    [ Parent ]
    ...I ll give you the percentage when found.. (none / 0) (#536)
    by johwsun on Wed May 08, 2002 at 11:26:18 AM EST

    ..note that, in the pointed url, Greece has a star, meaning that some books do not agree about the number of deaths. Maybe thats why we also disagree.

    [ Parent ]
    ..the percentages... (none / 0) (#537)
    by johwsun on Thu May 09, 2002 at 02:04:41 AM EST

    Population of greece 7.300.000 (just before ww2)

    160.000 deads of hunger (2.19%)

    40.000 persons cooperated with the nazi (0.5%) (those persons are not greeks anymore, after the liberation of greece they left from greece)

    90.000 deads due to genocide (greek jews) (1.23%)

    270.000 deads due to resistance to the occupation, soldiers or rebels (3.7%)

    [ Parent ]

    Americans don't waste time hating the French (4.66 / 3) (#548)
    by roprice on Fri May 17, 2002 at 07:43:47 PM EST

    Not to rankle your thin European skin but Americans don't spend their evenings reflecting on how great, or how terrible, the French (or the rest of Europe) are. When we do stoop so low, as I will do now, it's because we've been provoked by some annoying European pest like yourself, and that pest needs to be swatted.

    To my endless amusement, the French, like most Europeans, obsess over America; American foreign policy is this, American domestic policy is that, blah blah blah, Americans don't put enough olive oil in their vinagrettes, Americans are arrogantly unfamiliar with the wonders of French culture, they don't even know who Claude Chabrol is, they throw rocks at mime artists, they have nooo culture, and (waaaah, mommy!) they're forcing us to eat McDonalds (as if anyone but the French were responsible for the French eating McDonalds).

    All this constant whining in the magazines, newspapers, train stations, dinner parties and youth hostels of the world, and you know what? It's a massive waste of time and energy because we don't give a fuck what the French think about us, what they don't think about us, or what they think about themselves in relation to us. And yet they stubbornly persist, hanging on Woody's every sibilant autocritism at Cannes and fanatically trumpeting discarded American art forms like Jazz, blind to the more pertinent American art now dominating the contemporary world -- architecture (enjoying your art museums?), fashion (and your tennies and blue jeans?) and film (you're getting there with stuff like Amelie, Sexy Beast, etc., keep working on it kids), all of which deeply affect not just the charddonay sippers but the bulk of humanity, in true American fashion.

    If the French want to think they're still at the center of culture, fine. If they choose to think of Jerry Lee Lewis, Henry Miller and Woody Allen's Dixieland Jazz band as America's prime examples of genius, that's fine too. Whatever. If they enjoy so much the self-gratifying belief that they have a more compassionate society, more power to them; let's say that the French media were to somehow practice some journalistic integrity in its coverage of American society, or even that they were all were to learn, in an effort to appease us, perfect American English and illegalize the French language: that's fine too. It doesn't matter either way because we really don't give a rats ass about your irrelevant culture. Whatever American entanglement with Europe there may have been was killed off forever in the 1950s when James Dean said fuck you to European conformity, and rocked the blue jeans and leather jacket -- we haven't looked back since.

    Don't you understand? It doesn't matter what France, or Not-Very-Great Britain for that matter, thinks, because America is the new Rome and France is, well, the old Gaul, once again. The empire neither defers to, nor is interested in, the petty goings-on and histrionic rhetoric of the provinces.

    Here's a perfect illustration of my point: Paris and London, as if they still mattered, have the silly audacity to presume to have a rivalry with New York. Hahahaha. As if New York could spare a minute for such silly pretensions; it's only true cultural rivalry on the planet is with California. Get it, bro?

    We don't care. And you can nag us till you're blue in the face and we still won't care, so you may as well give your yapholes a rest. Who knows, perhaps you'll regain a bit of dignity in the process, and perhaps, maybe, if you're very lucky, you'll Get Over Us. Go guzzle some fish and chips or burn some synagogues, or whatever you morons do for fun.

    Why do the Usians hate the French so? (none / 0) (#550)
    by jubal3 on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 12:37:26 AM EST

    France? Isn't that someplace in Canada? Sadly, that's a more likely scenario that Americans hating the French. Hate to bust anyone's bubble, but 90% of Americans don't know much about what's going on in the next state, much less give a flying fuck about the French or the Zimbabweans or anyone else. We pretty much want to drive our Chevys, drink Budweiser and watch Survivor. (God, its sad but true!)
    And it's sad, because so rarely has a country so richly deserved to be hated by Americans.
    For starters, the French deserve the lions share of the blame for starting WWI, (an honour shared only semi-equally by Kaiser Wilhelm)for the web of treaties carefully crafted and diplomatic incidents skillfully exloited by the French foreign ministry. (Does anyone remember that Kaiser Wilhem was Queen Victoria's Grandson and that Germany was a traditional Ally of the UK prior to 1910?)
    And after the French more than half-STARTED the war, they wouldn't even fight it. They were the only one of the three great powers that had mass executions of soldiers who deserted in the midst of combat. Not the British, not the Germans. After begging the U.S. to save their ass, which we did, they promptly told us to fuck off. Wilson's 14 points never DID get incorporated into the treaty of versailles, even though the rest of the world caved in to Clemenceu and the rest of the French war criminals as they raped the Germans and paved the way to WWII (The SECOND great war they more than half-started)
    As to any debt owed to the French for their (quite selfish) assistance during our reolution, Remember that the U.S. lost over 1000 times the number of troops on French soil in WWI than ever even ARRIVED to assist the Americans in the revolution, much less ever fought. We paid any debt with bloody interest in WWI. So don't give us any shit about how we "OWE" the French a damn thing.
    So along comes the self-created mess of WWII, and the French roll over like a whore on pay-day, collaborate more than any other conquered country (Romania and Hungaray were Nazi allies, not conquered). The U.S. came and saved their worthless hides again, De Gaulle gets elected and once again tells us to fuck off. The French for 40 years, have opposed just about anything the U.S. wants to do on general principle. They despise our culture and call us names, while running to spend their Francs (pardon, EUROS) at Euro Disney after a stop at McDonalds, wearing Levis Blue Jeans and carrying Motorola cellphones.
    Oh, and then the French intervene all over the continent of Africa any time it damn well pleases THEIR interests (Hmmm, didnt wait for a UN reslolution in Chad or Ivory Coast)and has the nerve to call the U.S. names anytime it wants to protect IT'S interests.
    After all this hypocrisy, cowardice, crap flinging and ingrattitude, how any American could have anything other than contempt for the French government and culture mystifies me.

    Why do the Usians hate the French so? | 549 comments (400 topical, 149 editorial, 1 hidden)
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