Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
The War On Drugs In The Classroom

By thelizman in Op-Ed
Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 02:08:01 PM EST
Tags: Politics (all tags)
Politics

The video shows police officers and K-9 units ordering suspects to the ground while they conducted a sweep. A tip had come in about clandestine drug activity, and in previous weeks one youth had been caught trying to distribute hundreds of prescription drug pills. During the sweep, police detained 107 underage suspects while they searched their backpacks. Police found no drugs, and were only able to report that some 12 backpacks had been singled out by the police dogs.

Now if you were thinking this was a typical rave-turned-police bust, you're wrong. This was just before first period at Stratford High School in the sleepy Charlotte suburb of Goose Creek, South Carolina.


The Goose Creek Police Department is under investigation as State Police try to determine if the tactics exceeded reasonable force guidelines. My gut reaction (this is Op-Ed) is "hey, no shit". Since when do you draw your weapon on a bunch of kids - okay, "young adults", because of a "suspicion"? Civil law enforcement has always been predicated on the notion that officers "served" the community, a concept which is distinct and removed from Orwellian acts such as this.

For some background, administrators are claiming an increase in drug activity in the previous three week period, and cited the aforementioned incident of the student caught distributing prescription pills. Administrators, equipped with surveillance cameras, noted suspicous behavior. And that's all well and good - it's the reason we have cameras in our schools. But are gestapo tactics necessarily the answer? Are school administrators so inept as to call in the heavies?

I'm not denying that drugs aren't involved. For all I know, every damn one of those kids probably tokes the ganga in mom and dads basement every weekend. I was a teenager once, I know the score. Should law enforcement be contacted? Hell yes. Should there be book bag searches, locker checks, should suspected students be confronted? You're damn skippy boo. But there is a line which has been crossed here. It goes beyond "suspicion", and it is long past "Reasonable Doubt". 107 students had their civil liberties violated based on the actions of a suspected 30 students. Instead of being satisfied that no drugs were found, the administration report that drug sniffing dogs picked out 12 bags which had traces of drugs on them. Or perhaps they had traces of beef jerkey on them. With half of all paper currency in circulation testing positive for trace amounts of cocaine, marijuna, or heroin, it's troubling to think that students at a school with a reputation for academics should start their day "assuming the position" at gunpoint.

One of the parents of the children described the incident appropriately as "senseless". Welcome to the War on Drugs, where senselessness trumps civil liberties and individual rights - yet doesn't actually appear to do anything about the drug problem. If anything is being demonstrated here, it is that for all intents and purposes, it is senseless administration which is making law abiding citizens the casualties while the drug trade thrives.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Related Links
o video
o Stratford High School
o Goose Creek
o under investigation
o reputation for academics
o described the incident
o Also by thelizman


Display: Sort:
The War On Drugs In The Classroom | 178 comments (101 topical, 77 editorial, 4 hidden)
The real problem with drugs (2.76 / 17) (#35)
by CAIMLAS on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 01:43:28 PM EST

The problem with drugs is not that they exist, or that they're abused, but the fact that people are not properly educated about them in a manner that encourages proper use of them, and that drugs are looked at as yet another "Us vs. Them" scenario.

If students were taught to think critically for themselves (which isn't going to happen anytime soon in a public institution, which enjoys having willing servants to ship overseas for combat, and to play games with corporately), then none of this would be a problem. We'd have discerning people that could smoke pot without going overboard. Granted, there will still be people that will abuse the drugs, but they'll know to seek help. (At least, they'd seek help if it weren't looked down upon in a criminal manner. Kind of deters any kind of actual socially-supported rehab if it's illigal to do something.)
--

Socialism and communism better explained by a psychologist than a political theorist.

But where will we find another scapegoat for evil? (3.00 / 6) (#109)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 08:08:37 PM EST

Sure, terrorists could easily replace druggies as the political scapegoats of the 21st century. But here is the problem with that. Terrorists are too few, and too smart to be captured. We need a massive (think 1-4%) of the population behind bars, to support our long-term fascism growth... and there simply aren't enough terrorists in the world to meet that quota.

Worse, even if there were that many, and the administration was competent enough to capture them alive, we kinda screwed the pooch on the whole deal. Now the proles are all hysterical and worked up, and they wounldn't even let us lock them up.

Druggies are perfect for this purpose, in ways that terrorists never could be. Druggies carry weapons from time to time, sure, but they like to shoot with those gangsta movie sideway grips.. they can't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside most days of the week. More importantly, they have real trouble resisiting or running. Ever try to see a doper run away from the police? It's hilarious... here is a guy that probably has less than 6 neurons firing correctly run away from 30 trained LEAs. Tripping, staggering, and about as fast as a slug on valium, the doper wouldn't be able to stand on one foot for 5 seconds, but somewhere deep down in that shriveled husk that once was a brain, he thinks he can outrun a helicopter on foot.

Now, compare that to the Tali-quaeda ninjas, that fire back RPGs from well defended positions. Someone might have to drop their doughnuts and fight back with both hands against the likes of that.

This is exactly why we should stay with our choice of making druggies the scapegoats for evil in america. No other group excites the proles quite as much during hate week.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]

Another solution (none / 0) (#161)
by CAIMLAS on Thu Nov 13, 2003 at 09:02:34 PM EST

We could also herd up all the introverts or people that disagree with the Man. They could be terrorists. Or mass murderers. Or smart - a danger in and of itself!
--

Socialism and communism better explained by a psychologist than a political theorist.
[ Parent ]

An excellent idea! (none / 0) (#167)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 06:53:06 PM EST

And France apologists, we should get them too, while we have the momentum. Those no good UN peaceniks deserve to be roasted alive, after the inquisitors prove them guilty with coerced confessions.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
not necessary (none / 0) (#174)
by CAIMLAS on Mon Nov 17, 2003 at 03:44:53 AM EST

Why bother with the time required to roast them?
--

Socialism and communism better explained by a psychologist than a political theorist.
[ Parent ]

Zero Tolerance (2.61 / 21) (#40)
by jjayson on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 02:11:21 PM EST

I problem stems from the "zero tolerance" programs and rules many schools are initiating.

Kneel in the end zone after scoring a touchdown, get reprimended for expressing religious conviction. Lend an asthma inhaler to your girlfriend or give an Advil to a fellow Student, get kicked out of school for drug distribution. Be a well-involved female student with no history of violence or anti-social behaviors and write a creative story of a student who dreams about killing his teacher, get suspended for threats. Wear a T-shirt with a message the principle doesn't like and get removed from class for disruption. Drink grape juice joking that it is wine, get sent home for alcohol. Bring an Exacto knife to school, get suspended for bring a weapon on campus. Draw stick figures get shot, get removed from school.

This overly harsh busting in guns drawn to search kids is just another incident of "zero tolerance" being over applied. It is political correctness gone bad brought about by a few bad administrators and educators in our public school system. But these few also make the most noise, and they are defended by a union that has no responsibility to the students and only cares about its members at the expense of the students. We should have zero tolerance for these few that use their power to twist the reasons the school system exists from educating to job security.
_______
Smile =)
* bt krav magas kitten THE FUCK UP
<bt> Eat Kung Jew, bitch.

Keep telling yourself that (2.33 / 6) (#42)
by fn0rd on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 02:23:22 PM EST

it's just political correctness. It'll make the crank easier to handle, because if you thought that there might actually be a systematic approach to social conditioning going on in our public educational system, well, no one wants you acting on a delusion stemming from methamphetamine induced paranoid psychosis.
This fatwa brought to you by the Agnostic Jihad
[ Parent ]
School == jail. (none / 3) (#68)
by tkatchev on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 08:29:43 AM EST

Well, not really, though the point still stands.


   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

Zero tolerance policies (none / 3) (#75)
by lb008d on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 11:15:37 AM EST

It is political correctness gone bad brought about by a few bad administrators and educators in our public school system

I would blame it on the litigiousness of students' parents, rather that "political correctness". Schools are rightly afraid of doing anything wrong and incurring the wrath of a parent, since the legal costs can be astronomical.

[ Parent ]

They made a bad choice then (none / 0) (#115)
by scruffyMark on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 12:01:44 AM EST

I mean, just having cops go around with guns drawn, searching kids at random, is bad enough. Can you imagine if one of those kids had gotten scared and tried to run away, and been shot? It would have been a sue-o-rama.

Someone might even try to construct a case that inviting the cops in to do their search was basically criminally negligent in that it was setting up that very scenario.

[ Parent ]

political correctness gone bad? (2.00 / 4) (#80)
by mcgrew on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 12:28:35 PM EST

That's like a "rabid dog gonbe bad". PC IS bad. period. PC is step 1 to censorship. Or maybe step 2...

"The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie
[ Parent ]

but it stops racism (none / 0) (#87)
by auraslip on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 04:18:19 PM EST

it's just an extension in bad taste; eating poop, not taking a shower, fucking your sister, being racist.

People who say PC is bad usally just have a problem with something that it's prohibiting; Racism, homophobia, or sexism. This is quite common amoung the talk show right.

___-___
[ Parent ]

Excuse me? (none / 2) (#124)
by ckaminski on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 08:50:53 AM EST

How does political correctness prevent racism?  Really?  It may inhibit expressions of racism, but it sure doesn't prevent it.  If it did the KKK would be a thing of the past.  The church burnings of a few years back wouldn't have happened.  

People who say PC is bad, know PC is bad and is hamstringing real discourse on making this planet a better place.  Because our policy makers are too afraid to insult anyone who might be wrong, and who are too afraid to stand up for what they believe in.

I'm not afraid of the racist who is public about his hatred.  I'm afraid of the one who's hiding his racism.

[ Parent ]

It is almost that simple. (none / 0) (#146)
by Smaug the Golden on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 08:58:13 AM EST

PC is not all good or all bad. Sometimes you can be correct and PC at the same time. Sometimes to be PC you have to be incorrect. If you tell me I am not being PC it means about as much as saying the pope disagrees with me. What I want to know is if I am correct or incorrect, and PC does not tell me that. PC is irrelevant. After all, if correct and PC meant the same thing, why would we need the term PC?

[ Parent ]
BUt it doesn't stop racism. (none / 0) (#153)
by mcgrew on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 07:56:42 PM EST

It only makes it a taboo subject for intelligent conversation. The racists will remain racist.

And even if it actually COULD stop racism, I still thuink its harmful effects would outweigh it.

Political Correctness is what put Hitler in power.

"The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie
[ Parent ]

Yeh. (none / 2) (#108)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 07:54:16 PM EST

Step #3: Profit!

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
As a Canadian (none / 0) (#114)
by scruffyMark on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 11:57:40 PM EST

I can't help but think of the Progressive Conservative Party whenever people refer to PC, in the context of politics.

"Yeah," I think, "The PCs have never been all that fond of freedom of the press. But it's not like the Liberals have been a lot better..."

[ Parent ]

As a nerd (none / 0) (#152)
by mcgrew on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 07:54:03 PM EST

I think of a desktop computer

"The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie
[ Parent ]

Fear (none / 1) (#92)
by gidds on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 04:27:06 PM EST

I suspect the root cause for this (and, from the little I can see, for many things wrong with US society today) is fear. Mostly unfounded fear.

People are afraid of terrorism, of violence, of drugs, of people who are different.

But why? AIUI, people are far more likely to be hit by lightning than to suffer from a terrorist attack. Reasonable fear is one thing, but the current hysteria is pointless and counterproductive. Fear of violence is perhaps more understandable, but how much violence today is the direct or indirect result of fear? Isn't it a vicious circle?

I also wonder if at least part of the reaction to drugs is also caused by fear; maybe subconscious fear of the violence that addicts can resort to when needing to feed their addiction? Of course, the connection between that and possession of small amounts of 'soft' drugs is tenuous at best, but maybe the War On Drugs has strengthened that association in some people's minds?

Sometimes I think that may Americans like to live in fear. It's a very depressing thought.

Andy/
[ Parent ]

and fear = control (none / 0) (#176)
by kubalaa on Tue Nov 18, 2003 at 02:10:35 PM EST

It used to be people maintained power by making the public fear them. Now it's easier to make the public fear some random bogey, just enough to keep them handing over the taxes.

[ Parent ]
It derives from (none / 0) (#160)
by losthalo on Thu Nov 13, 2003 at 07:54:49 PM EST

The People wanting something to be done even when they don't know what that is. Doing nothing (even if that is the reasonable course of action) is political suicide.

(Compare all of the bullshit corporate execs put into policy to show that they're doing something. Same thing.)

(Losthalo)

[ Parent ]
Had a bad middle school experience... (none / 1) (#177)
by Dogun on Tue Nov 18, 2003 at 05:44:06 PM EST

It's a little off topic, but back when I was a sixth grader, I was attacked by 3 classmates. I tried to back out of it for as long as it was wasn't apparent that they intended to beat the shit out of me, but ultimately, they did. I landed maybe two punches, a grapple, and a mid-fall-bite though a thick sweater during the entire exchange. So here's the zero tolerance policy gripe: There were plenty of witnesses. The other three were disciplinary nightmares, involved in many fights over the preceding several months. I was part of one of the clusters of nonaggressive nerds. The witnesses did not side with the three who attacked me. They noted that I had made a valiant effort to back out of the conflict even after being punched, tripped, and kicked. My principlal told me this as he handed me my 5 day suspension, part of his crappy ass zero tolerance policy.

[ Parent ]
The real problem with zero tolerance (2.55 / 9) (#45)
by Tatarigami on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 02:35:29 PM EST

The real threat is that the kids might get used to it, and that some of them will reach voting age without any convictions that revoke their voting privileges.

Then everyone gets zero tolerance.

Hey, I know (1.14 / 14) (#46)
by wji on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 02:53:19 PM EST

Why don't we repeal those insane gun-laws that prevent law abiding children from taking guns to school. Decentralism against tyranny! Yeah!

In conclusion, the Powerpuff Girls are a reactionary, pseudo-feminist enterprise.
We need to let the children think for themselves! (none / 1) (#91)
by auraslip on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 04:24:12 PM EST


___-___
[ Parent ]
How about just equal protections? (none / 0) (#156)
by Persol on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 10:16:58 PM EST

I think that most people would simply settle for the protections being equal.

---
MangaPug.Com - A community for manga artists.
[ Parent ]
I'm against parents abusing their children (2.06 / 16) (#49)
by debacle on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 04:20:54 PM EST

Whether mentally, physically, or emotionally.

However, if anyone is going to do something to scare the shit out of them and make them think about not just right and wrong, but doing what's healthy (Lets not get into the whole libertarian shit trawl, these kids aren't even old enough to drive).

It takes a very unique kind of person to decide they want to go into law enforcement. Usually socially malformed people, ex-military men, and people who couldn't quite make it in the army wind up protecting us from things like going 36 in a 35 and being in parks after "dusk."

Personally I think that motive here needs to be questioned. Not only that, but the entire school administration. If I were a principal I wouldn't have allowed police to come into my school and do that to my kids.

It tastes sweet.

Some one think of the Children! (none / 3) (#89)
by auraslip on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 04:20:31 PM EST


___-___
[ Parent ]
You may not have had a choice (n/t) (none / 1) (#125)
by ckaminski on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 08:52:44 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Excellent article (2.14 / 7) (#50)
by strlen on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 05:54:40 PM EST

I'm actually surprised it hasn't been mentioned, as I've come accross it on CNN's front page some time ago.

Just one thing, though, mon, ganga should be ganja, mon.


--
[T]he strongest man in the world is he who stands most alone. - Henrik Ibsen.

Q: What part of Jamaica ya from, mon? (none / 1) (#60)
by YelM3 on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 01:27:32 AM EST

A: Right by da beach!

[ Parent ]
Oh, and (2.76 / 13) (#51)
by strlen on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 05:57:02 PM EST

The CNN article also mentioned this was a guns drawn raid. Now, think what you want, but guns drawn seems rather excessive and pointless in that situation.

--
[T]he strongest man in the world is he who stands most alone. - Henrik Ibsen.
but kids these days listen to RAP music (2.70 / 10) (#88)
by auraslip on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 04:19:20 PM EST


___-___
[ Parent ]
I think we see the same thing. (none / 0) (#149)
by Dr Caleb on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 04:41:19 PM EST

If you want some attention - there's nothin like a dozen 9s in your face.

Those kids will be much more respectful in the future, and have second thoughts about drugs.


Vive Le Canada - For Canadians who give a shit about their country.

There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

Respectful? (none / 0) (#155)
by Persol on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 10:14:03 PM EST

If I come in your house and bitch-slap you around are you suddenly going to respect me more?

No. If anything you'll make it a point to be as difficult as possible. You seem to be basing your belief on the myth that boot-camp tactics actually work.

---
MangaPug.Com - A community for manga artists.
[ Parent ]

War on drugs? are you nuts? (1.90 / 10) (#58)
by United Fools on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 10:37:38 PM EST

Don't you know the fashion of the day is the War on Terror?
We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
As usual... (3.00 / 6) (#62)
by grendelkhan on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 01:43:56 AM EST

... in these strange times, any attempt at irony will be shown to have already been done quite seriously by those in power.

See: narcoterrorism.

That's not just a joint. That's a narcoterrorist joint.

--grendelkhan
-- Laws do not persuade just because they threaten --Seneca
[ Parent ]

was that why everyone bought gas masks? (none / 0) (#90)
by auraslip on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 04:23:26 PM EST

because they didn't want to get high?
___-___
[ Parent ]
Funny link that is... (3.00 / 2) (#118)
by IriseLenoir on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 03:13:39 AM EST

As a conclusion : "Osama bin Laden has reportedly advocated using narcotics trafficking to weaken Western societies by supplying them with addictive drugs. (In 2000, Americans spent almost $63 billion on illegal narcotics.)"

Now that is some amazingly twisted, but amazingly smart propaganda!

"liberty is the mother of order, not its daughter" - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
[ Parent ]

Here's how to stop OBL! (none / 1) (#170)
by skim123 on Sun Nov 16, 2003 at 01:59:57 AM EST

Legalize drugs. Ok, so that won't fly with the public. If you are a pot head, I hope you grow your own weed. If not, YOU ARE SUPPORTING THE TERRORISTS! As our exalted leader once said, "If you're not with America, you're against America." Fucking communists.

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


[ Parent ]
Actually... (none / 2) (#107)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 07:45:54 PM EST

Oceania is at war with Eastasia, and has always been at war with Eastasia, it has never been any other way.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
Legalise it! [nt] (1.46 / 13) (#64)
by nebbish on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 05:13:02 AM EST


---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

"Cocaine on dollar bills" Urban Legend? (3.00 / 10) (#66)
by vyruss on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 07:30:10 AM EST

Just to clarify this quote, I believe people need to read these:
snopes.com
urbanlegends.com (1)
urbanlegends.com (2)

  • PRINT CHR$(147)

Absolutely right (1.22 / 9) (#77)
by mcgrew on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 12:20:22 PM EST

There is no cocaine residue on dollar bills. They snort coke with twenties. Probably hundreds, these days.

You can post a link saying the moon doesn't exist, too, but that doesn't make the moon an urban legend.

"The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie
[ Parent ]

READ the fine link, man! (none / 3) (#100)
by vyruss on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 06:19:46 PM EST

It doesn't say it's an urban legend, quite the opposite. But it clarifies some things about the story.

  • PRINT CHR$(147)

[ Parent ]
I guess the question is this (none / 3) (#72)
by My Other Account Is A Hulver on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 09:52:16 AM EST

How would you feel if this happened to you at your place of work?

I think the only relevant difference between kids and adults here is that most adults have already have a fixed idea whether they trust the police or not.  Some of these kids might still have an open mind on it.  I doubt after their experience with Officer Buzzcut that they do now.

I believe drduck is a genuine account, and I don't delete him because I'm a hypocrite. - rusty

I swear to god! (2.28 / 7) (#84)
by mintee on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 02:43:28 PM EST

I used to live in NC and now I live in Philly. Public schools in NC are nothing in comparision to the ones in Philly. Here I might expect to hear such Bullshit, but not down there. A few friends and I have discussed this in detail and came to the conclusion. If I were a parent of a child in that school. I would sue the school and use that money to send my kid to private school. Not to mention, they were looking for marijuana. That's not even a real threat to Hish School students. They've been smoking that shit for years and years. I guess since around the 60's. Sure, If some kid fucking was rumored to have a few kilos of coke or herion then yeah, maybe I can see a raid like that take place, but for weed??? Funny thing is they didn't find shit. If I was a kid at that school and at that time, I woulda shit my pants. Guns drawn and Dogs loose. Seems like they were looking for Bin Laden or something.
-The Lazy Writer
What Civil Liberties? (2.20 / 5) (#85)
by NateTG on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 02:45:04 PM EST

Last time I checked, under U.S. law, Schools can act 'in loco parentis' -- as parents -- in the eyes of the law. That means that students who are under 18 have essentially zero rights when the school calls in the police or searches the students. That said, I wonder if the cops can be charged with brandishing, intimidation, and/or endangering the students for drawing guns unprovoked or handcuffing cooperative students.

Dangerously Naive (3.00 / 5) (#96)
by thelizman on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 05:47:31 PM EST

en loco parentis does not entitle a school to abuse children, nor does it extend beyond school faculty to law enforcement officers. Additionally, the schools powers of en loco parentis only apply when a parent cannot be contacted, or has signed a waiver (i.e "it's okay to paddle my child as discipline").

Also, en loco parentis is not valid in every state and every school district.
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]
Video Link seems Broken (none / 0) (#86)
by mintee on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 02:50:10 PM EST

Video Here
-The Lazy Writer
At least they didn't kill any of the kids (none / 0) (#93)
by setzman on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 05:07:11 PM EST

Story I saw on freerepublic when I was trolling around making fun of the neocons there.


Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.

This happened in Boston in 1994. (2.33 / 3) (#136)
by GuillaumeLeblanc on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 12:27:47 PM EST

The police stormed in on retired Rev. Accelyne Williams in 1994. He died of a heart attack. He was a retired, black minister in his 80s.

Now, this had the potential of being a major disruptive incident, but the Police Chief stepped up into the light, and took full responsibility, apologized for the Police Department and for the City, and stated that it was a tragic accident.

If you are going to treat drugs and drug dependency with force and punishment, you will get these kind of incidents occasionally, along with lots of drugs and drug dependency. That's the way we want to live our life here in America.
Codex gratia Codici.
[ Parent ]

You're damn skippy boo. (1.20 / 5) (#94)
by McMasters on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 05:15:28 PM EST

..

...

What?

Good story, but lacking in objectivity. (1.04 / 24) (#95)
by rmg on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 05:45:23 PM EST

Look, it's easy to say that this is an outrage, but before we fly off the handle with some knee-jerk response, let's try to look at the facts here:

  • Drug abuse and addiction accounts for some 80% of homelessness and 60% of violent crime in the United States. We see similar figures in the UK, France, and, yes, even the Netherlands.
  • Numerous terrorist states, including Afghanistan and Colombia, have drugs (opium and cocaine, respectively) as their main export. Indeed, the Taliban regime was bankrolled by drug warlords. We see similar links between drug cartels and communist upheaval in Latin America.
  • The US government recently released a study indicating that some 90% of adult drug dealers made their start as thugs like these kids in high school. In the face of a figure like this, it is hard to say "They're just kids."
  • The right to search and seizure is gauranteed in the seventh ammendment of the US Constitution. Failure to uphold the Government's right to search and interrogate students in this instance would be an incredible disservice to the founding principles of this nation.
  • Some 55% of all illegal distribution of prescription drugs is done in violation of US Patent and Intellectual Property laws. Distributors like these students have a devastating effect on the United States phamaceutical industry and at least partially responsible for the abysmal state of the US economy.

Now some might say that these statistics don't mean anything, but to those who have any respect for the facts, these are all important considerations. After all, it is easy to eschew logic and think only with your emotions.

People around here need to think more about the context of actions like these before they go off on tirades about civil rights.

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks

You really are a troll (1.80 / 5) (#98)
by lowmagnet on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 06:01:10 PM EST

The seventh amendment is about a right to trial by jury.

[ Parent ]
Absurd. (1.14 / 7) (#101)
by rmg on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 06:19:50 PM EST

Of course those who insist on doing violence to the facts will always appeal to the ad hominem. I can only expect lies from someone intent on using defamation as the basis of argument.

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks
[ Parent ]

What a f*cking troll (1.50 / 4) (#102)
by Swoko on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 06:21:34 PM EST

Colombia is NOT a terrorist state. I think you even ignore where COlombia is...

[ Parent ]
Typical response from a leftist dullard. (1.42 / 7) (#104)
by rmg on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 06:33:21 PM EST

When the facts are not on your side, swear and make accusations of trolling. You must have done very well in English class.

As for your "point," Colombia is a small country on the Northern Coast of South America, well known for its many drug cartels and political turbulence. It is also well known for instigating revolutions and financing the assassination of US Law Enforcement and legislative officials. Of course, to the leftist, communist revolutions and cop killing are simply parts of Colombian culture and ought to be embraced, like rap music and the French malady.

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks
[ Parent ]

Heh (none / 2) (#105)
by kraant on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 06:35:28 PM EST

Now some might say that these statistics don't mean anything, but to those who have any respect for the facts, these are all important considerations. After all, it is easy to eschew logic and think only with your emotions.

Of course those statistics don't mean anything. Almost all those situations are caused by the illegality of drugs not drugs themselves.
--
"kraant, open source guru" -- tumeric
Never In Our Names...
[ Parent ]

Hrrmmm. (1.20 / 5) (#106)
by jmzero on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 06:35:31 PM EST

There's some real craftsmanship there.  Well done.  

PS: You're a troll! OMG! I'm a troll-spotter!
.
"Let's not stir that bag of worms." - my lovely wife
[ Parent ]

Lack of intelligence? (none / 2) (#111)
by mineiro on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 09:44:09 PM EST

Drug abuse and addiction accounts for some 80% of homelessness and 60% of violent crime in the United States. We see similar figures in the UK, France, and, yes, even the Netherlands.

True. But why do people take drugs? Because they are available? Poison is also available but very few people feel like taking it. When will you rich guys stop blaming the Third World for the problems you still have?

Numerous terrorist states, including Afghanistan and Colombia, have drugs (opium and cocaine, respectively) as their main export. Indeed, the Taliban regime was bankrolled by drug warlords. We see similar links between drug cartels and communist upheaval in Latin America.

Indeed most drug suppliers are countries friendly to the US (Thailand, Mexico, Pakistan). To brand Colombia a "terrorist" state is wicked of you. Colombia has not bombed other countries, has not destroyed other countries' facilities and their problem is that they have a civil war. And if you still think there's a communist upheavel in Latin America you must be crazy. People down here aren't keen on communism, but they often feel enraged by the way some country tries to exploit them to the bones. Maybe you think that people like Néstor Kirchener and Luiz Inacio da Silva being democratically elected is "communism" because you can't conceive that politics can shift accordingly to the opinion of the majority, even when the majority disagrees with the US.

Some 55% of all illegal distribution of prescription drugs is done in violation of US Patent and Intellectual Property laws. Distributors like these students have a devastating effect on the United States phamaceutical industry and at least partially responsible for the abysmal state of the US economy.

When things made sense in the world a nation with an abysmal economic state would not grow 3% on a semester and would not be able to go bombing foes elsewhere. You Americans moan for your aching little fingers while so many people have lost their right arms.

I am responding you because I don't believe you are a troll: there are too many people thinking like you over the world, especially in the US.

PS - I am not Colombia and have no special reason to defend them, maybe only the sense of justice.


Man is the wolf of man -- Thomas Hobbes.
[ Parent ]
Wow. /nt (none / 1) (#112)
by rmg on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 10:08:23 PM EST



_____ intellectual tiddlywinks
[ Parent ]

Sorry, YHBT (none / 0) (#113)
by scruffyMark on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 11:44:39 PM EST

I am responding you because I don't believe you are a troll

You were wrong, unfortunately. Look at the link in his sig...

[ Parent ]

statistics (none / 1) (#120)
by Commodore Sloat on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 04:52:12 AM EST

Now some might say that these statistics don't mean anything, but to those who have any respect for the facts, these are all important considerations.

Of course they don't mean anything, because you MADE THEM UP.

[ Parent ]

ll that you cite (none / 0) (#134)
by nebbish on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 12:01:50 PM EST

Is down to the laws governing drugs, not the drugs themsleves.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee
[ Parent ]

just kids (none / 1) (#150)
by ACG on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 05:18:43 PM EST

The US government recently released a study indicating that some 90% of adult drug dealers made their start as thugs like these kids in high school. In the face of a figure like this, it is hard to say "They're just kids."

How many of those kids turned out to be drug dealers? That's like saying, 90% people on crack started out by smoking weed. But what percentage of weed smokers have moved on to crack, 3%? Don't turn statistics around, even in a troll.

(made up the crack smoking percentages, if you can't guess that already)

[ Parent ]
That's alright. (1.50 / 2) (#151)
by rmg on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 07:27:25 PM EST

I made up my statistics too.

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks
[ Parent ]

I call bullshit (none / 0) (#171)
by potatohead on Sun Nov 16, 2003 at 03:01:55 AM EST

Most of the problem stats you cite have two simple root causes: #1 Ineffective parenting. Parents who are involved with their kids don't have kids with these kinds of problems. I have 4 of my own and they all know my stand on these things. The school has repeatedly let me know most parents do not have a level of involvement that does any good. As a kid, I saw the same thing happen (and swore to not repeat it when I got older, though back then... #2 Schools hands tied by the legal system. Does your school have classes on citizenship, responsibility and ethics? Mine does not. Why? Because it might offend somebody. Politically sensitive material. Do the instructors model these things? Some do, but many don't. Why? Because they might offend somebody. Same problem the school administration had. I remember my principle well. He managed the school by walking around. Nobody wanted to cross him because he could and would do what it took to preserve order. Today, this person would end up in a courtroom in a month. Is this good for society or bad? Kids today have it rough. We have a wishy-washy culture that is bland and without focus. The most popular music with young people today largely reflects the street life they can expect because their parents don't have the self respect and values necessary to wake up each morning and do what it takes to make sure their kids are treading on the right paths in life. I do happen to agree with you about locker searches and such because those are public property for student use. Personal searches and actions like these are way over the line however. If this crap happens in my school for suspected drug issues, I will sue. Every school has drugs in it. They will be passed monday morning and there is damn little we can do about it because we don't have the direct support of the people that are supposed to matter. The parents of the little brats that failed to do their job and help build the next generation of citizens. The schools would have a far easier time of things given even a moderate level of parental support. We reap what we sow.

[ Parent ]
Sorry for bad formatting. Had HTML turned on :( (none / 0) (#172)
by potatohead on Sun Nov 16, 2003 at 03:03:26 AM EST

Been a while since my last post.

[ Parent ]
Charleston not Charlotte (none / 1) (#110)
by harryhoode on Mon Nov 10, 2003 at 09:23:17 PM EST

Goose Creek is outside of Charleston, SC. Charlotte is in NC.

Charlotte's "metropolitan area", (none / 0) (#148)
by mmsmatt on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 04:08:05 PM EST

I'm told, extends past the state-line. How this is possible, not sure, but it's on a map somewhere.

[ Parent ]
It does, but that don't make it so. (none / 2) (#162)
by AtADeadRun on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 03:15:31 PM EST

Charlotte's metropolitan statistical area (the U.S. Census Bureau's way of measuring large urban/suburban areas), since Charlotte directly abuts northwestern South Carolina, does extend south of the border.

Goose Creek, a suburb of Charleston, on the other hand, is on the southeast coast of South Carolina, some three or more hours' drive from Charlotte. I was stationed in Goose Creek for two years and had to drive through Charlotte to get home to see the folks.



-------
Pain heals. Glory is forever. Keep running.

We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
[ Parent ]
Well then, (none / 0) (#168)
by mmsmatt on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 08:09:17 PM EST

thanks for clearing that up.

[ Parent ]
15th Amendment and vague warrants? (3.00 / 2) (#116)
by scruffyMark on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 12:14:35 AM EST

I'm no expert in USA law, but my impression was always that very broad warrants (not specifying exactly what and whom to search, and what or whom to seize) would be prohibited under the 15th amendment.

Seems to me, a warrant like they seemed to be acting on - search everyone you find in this hallway, and all their bags, for narcotics of any kind at all, and bust whomever you find to be in possession of narcotics - would qualify as exactly the sort of "fishing expedition" operations the 15th amendment was brought in to prevent. Not only the vagueness of the specifications, but the lack of probable cause, seem like a problem - being found in your high school, during school hours, seems like a pretty flimsy sort of incriminating behaviour.

Is there something I'm missing here? Does one of the US's patented laws-of-questionable-constitutionality back this sort of op? Does the fact that the students were on school board property somehow help here? I just don't see how the cops could have even hoped to get a conviction out of this raid, even if they had found any dope.

I'm not sure 15th applies... (none / 0) (#121)
by mikelist on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 05:57:08 AM EST

...since the investigation happened at the request of the school admin. You have many rights, and any one of them can be waived, either voluntarily or by other means.

[ Parent ]
Umm.... (none / 0) (#123)
by ckaminski on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 08:44:27 AM EST

What part of the "protection from unreasonable searches and seizures" can you waive, without doing it explicitly?  Or did the parents in this case wave said right by sending their kids to school?  Seems like a damn good reason to home school my kids...
First I have to worry about them getting shot by fellow students, now I have to worry about them getting shot by cops or mauled by police dogs.  Great.  

(Acknowledging a bit of creative exaggeration there!)


[ Parent ]

As I Pointed Out (none / 1) (#131)
by thelizman on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 10:32:17 AM EST

There is no reasonable expectation to privacy in a public school. Being a minor, you, your locker, and person are subject to search at any time. There was a supreme court ruling on this years back (though I disagree with the basis).
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]
Only for minors? (none / 0) (#133)
by scruffyMark on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 11:44:22 AM EST

That seems peculiar, but I suppose I can see how the school administrators temporarily become your "guardians", and can have greater rights than normal over you. Apparently they can transfer the execution of those rights to cops, or whomever.

Two things I'd be curious to know, maybe you do :
1) Would that not apply to pupils who are of the age of majority, e.g. who might be returning to school some years after dropping out?
2) Would these reduced rights allow the police to collect evidence for a conviction in ways not normally allowed, or only for disciplinary action by the school?

[ Parent ]

Protection Is Not Universal (none / 0) (#135)
by EXTomar on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 12:10:43 PM EST

First off, depending on the state the school is considered a public facility. Doing anything at school is considered doing it in view of the public therefore there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. It is not unreasonable for the police to search public areas.

A stronger case is that as an administrator of the facility the principal has the right to inspect their school even against the permission of the students. Operating under the auspice of local government, its their building not the students.

Why anyone would think a school would be a great place to conduct illegal activites is beyond me. You more "constitutional protection" by going out to the sidewalk.



[ Parent ]
Not always true (none / 0) (#137)
by jjbelsky on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 01:44:37 PM EST

These are the murky waters that you get into when you try to get around The Constitution and the rights that it protects. They didn't just look in the lockers; they searched the bodies of the students. By your logic, they could have looked up their rectums with flashlights because they are in a public school. But of course they can't do that.

When you start trying to make exceptions to people's rights, it becomes very hard to figure out where you draw the line. And then those rights just go out the window.

[ Parent ]

Bullshit. (2.50 / 2) (#127)
by brunes69 on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 09:50:05 AM EST

I'm not denying that drugs aren't involved. For all I know, every damn one of those kids probably tokes the ganga in mom and dads basement every weekend. I was a teenager once, I know the score. Should law enforcement be contacted? Hell yes. Should there be book bag searches, locker checks, should suspected students be confronted? You're damn skippy boo.

This is complete and utter bullshit. Are you saying that because your next door neighbour was caught holding up a store, the cops have the right to bust into your house, and every other house on the street, WITHOUT a WARRANT simply because you're associated with the guy? OF COURSE NOT. So why do we let them get away with this kind of crap with minors?

Kids are citizens too. And while they may get into some trouble, thats all part of growing up. If I was one of these kid's parents I'd be suing the pants off this corrupt PD. And damn straight I would do the same if any teacher tried to search my kid's backpack or locker without his permission. I don't car e who you are or what the allegations are, there's a thing called the constitution and due process.



---There is no Spoon---
Schools are Not Homes (2.00 / 2) (#130)
by thelizman on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 10:28:39 AM EST

Sorry charlie, but your local public school is not a home, and there is no reasonable expectation of privacy there. And no, kids are not "citizens", they're minors. Sorry to bust your bubble, but until they hit 18, they do not have any but the most fundamental rights, and in many cases those rights are through the parent.
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]
Just because that's how it is... (2.00 / 2) (#139)
by CaptainSuperBoy on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 03:14:36 PM EST

Does not mean that's how it should be. Zero tolerance and constant searches act to ensure that kids will never trust authority again - and with good reason. If you treat someone like a criminal suspect 24 hours a day, sooner or later they'll actually become one. I strongly believe that if we show kids that we trust them, they'll reciprocate.

--
jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.
[ Parent ]
Whens the last time you were a kid? (2.00 / 2) (#142)
by thelizman on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 10:18:38 PM EST

I strongly believe that if we show kids that we trust them, they'll reciprocate.
Nope, and I think you know better.
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]
I know you are but what am I? -NT (none / 1) (#144)
by CaptainSuperBoy on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 10:45:00 PM EST



--
jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.
[ Parent ]
Yup... (none / 0) (#145)
by orestes on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 04:24:20 AM EST

Our school seemed like it relaxed its "zero tolerance" policy, but from what I gathered (this was only about a year ago), they were still allowed to do whatever they wanted short of strip searching you. As long as it was on the school's property, if you were a student (regardless of age - 18+ or whatever), it could be searched; this included your car, locker, backpack...and this wasn't limited to school authorities. The liaison officer often took part in these searches. About as quickly as students could scream "constitution", school officials replied with "as a student you have no rights". :) Which is true - I thought this was common practice in just about every public school. We didn't even have cameras or metal detectors.

The rest of us that weren't complaining about our rights being violated were just wondering why they didn't just keep their drugs off of school property...or could they not go 7 hours without them?

[ You Sad Bastard ]
[ Parent ]
Wrong. (2.50 / 4) (#154)
by brunes69 on Wed Nov 12, 2003 at 09:21:37 PM EST

My kid's backpack is his personal property, I don't care if it is in my house, in a car, at school, or anywhere else. A cop can't search a person like that without the person's permission, reasonable suspicion (which these guys obviously did NOT have for the whole school) or a warrant. Also, a cop can't go into your workplace and search through your desk without a warrant either, regardless of the fact that you don't live there or own the property, because of expectation of privacy. The only reason this doesn't extend to school lockers is because of the public's willingness to let the govenment erode away due process.

---There is no Spoon---
[ Parent ]
Another reason to home school (2.50 / 2) (#128)
by Spamagnet on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 10:18:52 AM EST

Around here, the government school system has a "zero tolerance" policy with no appeals. In theory, this is supposed to get rid of the troublemakers.

In practice, it's yet another way to punish the innocent. Just one example out of many: A child's mother puts a table knife in her lunch; the child turns it in to a teacher and is then suspended.

Boy am I glad homeschooling is legal.

Supports the idea of vouchers (2.33 / 3) (#140)
by JackStraw on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 03:47:44 PM EST

The sad thing is that, judging by how these incidents were handled in the past, there's not much the parents can do in relatiation against the administrators. After all, it was done to pursue the holy grail of a drug-free school. Nevermind that it's blatantly against constitutional rights.

If there was a voucher system, a good business-minded administrator would never do something so insulting to the students and their parents. And if he did, they could easily move their kids to another school.

Be pro-choice on everything... including schools..
-The bus came by, I got on... that's when it all began.

ogre or troll? (none / 1) (#166)
by Rhodes on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 06:30:59 PM EST

a business oriented administrator would run away from public education. Too expensive, not worth it, too much trouble.

[ Parent ]
not worth it? (none / 0) (#169)
by JackStraw on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 09:55:17 PM EST

Now, I don't know what you mean. Public? I'm referring to private, but with vouchers. Are you saying that vouchers would be of enough money to encourage entrepeneurs to run private voucher-accepting schools? I just don't even know where to begin arguing that... experience has shown that private companies will and do pick up the slack when vouchers are implemented. Say what you will about the quality of these private companies, but they definately do exist, and entrepeneurs definately do not run away from them.

What exactly do you mean?
-The bus came by, I got on... that's when it all began.
[ Parent ]

Cameras in US schools? (none / 0) (#157)
by YesNoCancel on Thu Nov 13, 2003 at 04:31:20 AM EST

Administrators, equipped with surveillance cameras, noted suspicous behavior. And that's all well and good - it's the reason we have cameras in our schools.

Are there really surveillance cameras in US schools? How can they do that without coming in conflict with the law?

what laws? (none / 1) (#165)
by Rhodes on Fri Nov 14, 2003 at 06:29:13 PM EST

As the technology gets cheaper, more and more schools are actively adding more and more cameras- and with the metal dectors, they're worse than Post Offices.

[ Parent ]
The War on Drugs in the Classroom (none / 0) (#178)
by azrailroaded on Fri Dec 12, 2003 at 03:12:05 AM EST

Wake up, America: Every day children are held at gunpoint in their own homes; young children, toddlers, infants, are held at gunpoint by 'law enforcement' officers IN THEIR OWN HOMES. Sure, what happened at that school is inexcusable. No drug, even in the hands of school age children, is dangerous enough to justify the level of violence used against unarmed citizens.

The War On Drugs In The Classroom | 178 comments (101 topical, 77 editorial, 4 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!