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[P]
Canadian immigration programme must be halted

By MSBob in Op-Ed
Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 12:22:17 PM EST
Tags: Round Table (all tags)
Round Table

One of the greatest promises of the Western world is the promise of opportunity to succeed. This alone attracts countless numbers of people to immigrate legally or otherwise to Western countries such as Canada, United States or the European Union.

Canada has the most generous immigration programme in the world with over 200,000 immigrants admitted to the country every year. Most of those come as so called 'Skilled Workers' i.e. people who are supposed to build a future for themselves in Canada based on their skill set and education acquired outside of the country. The only problem - no realistic job opportunities exist for them.

Before I get accused of being a right wing racist xenophobe let me add that I'm a first generation Polish immigrant in Canada...


At this point I could write up a long rant about the hardships and discrimination that myself and my wife suffer but instead I'll concentrate on the analysis of this report (pdf) published by the Fraser Institute.

The report mainly concentrates on the impact that the present levels of immigration have on the Canadian populace but the more interesting parts are those that talk about the welfare of all those new Canadians lured by the government of Canada's glossy brochures.

On page 16 of the report we read about an incredible rise in the poverty levels experienced by those who chose to move to Canada. According to the government's official data the poverty level of those who settled in Canada before 1986 was at 19.7 percent or slightly below that of native Canadians. However the percentage of those living below the poverty line rose to a staggering 52.1 percent for those who arrived here after 1991. Unless your country is in a complete mess there is a very good chance that you'll be financially better off staying where you are rather than moving to Canada... contrary to what the Canadian government would have you believe. The people behind those numbers are all those PhD's driving cabs in Toronto and delivering pizzas in Vancouver.

What is also noted is that the more recent the immigrant the more trouble they tend to have in the Canadian labour market and the more likely they are to be below the poverty line. Even if they do find work in their field as opposed to menial labour their salaries may never reach Canadian average.

The report puts a lot of emphasis on troubles caused by the family reunification programmes but personally I do not feel that this alone explains the numbers mentioned above. The ratio of 'skilled immigrants' to 'immediate family immigrants' hasn't changed much in the last four decades. What did change however is the sheer volume of immigrants Canada admits every year.

This level of immigration is not without its toll on the Canadian society. A clear trend of immigrant resentment is emerging within the society (page 27). On one hand people resent the 'ghettoization' of immigrants who build communities separate from the mainstream society. On the other hand they tend to see that as a cause rather than a result of them alienating people such as myself who tried to 'integrate' into the Canadian culture and failed subsequently. Hermit ethnic communities are a symptom of certain problems and not a cause.

The report goes a little more into a speculative mode as to the causes of this mess and why it is so difficult to reform the outdated system. However, to me the essential part is the one that clearly shows how recent immigrants are denied a realistic opportunity to launch a successful career in Canada while the government goes out of its way in painting a very rosy picture of the situation for new prospective migrants.

Finally some spicy anecdotal evidence (I have a fairly solid collection to share). Having experienced varying levels of discrimination myself I can definitely say that living as a foreigner in Canada can be a very bitter experience and not just due to bitterly cold weather. My wife (also Polish) has been without a job since our arrival despite having two degrees from a reputable university in the United Kingdom. She is always denied interviews unless she sends her resume... under an assumed, Canadian sounding name! The phone does tend to ring then!

Given the (often) desperate situation of those who were suckered into coming to Canada the only realistic solution seems to be curbing the immigration levels perhaps by as much as 90% in order to restore the balance in the labour pool and avoid tensions similar to those experienced by the UK a couple of years ago.

I am an immigrant myself, I know the sacrifices people make to get here and the sheer determination to succeed which they bring to this country. Unfortunately for many of them (myself included) the benefit of living in Canada isn't worth the social, mental and financial cost just to (perhaps) improve your income by a few percentage points in terms of purchasing power parity.

Oh yeah, just in case you wondered... I'm returning home before this summer.

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Poll
Canada's immigration programme
o Should be curbed 35%
o Should be expanded 37%
o Should be unchanged 27%

Votes: 48
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o report (pdf)
o Fraser Institute
o Also by MSBob


Display: Sort:
Canadian immigration programme must be halted | 194 comments (175 topical, 19 editorial, 0 hidden)
Yawl will still let Yanks in, right? (4.00 / 7) (#1)
by Edgy Loner on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:12:17 AM EST

Just checking, not that I'd be like interested or anything.

This is not my beautiful house.
This is not my beautiful knife.
Hehe (none / 0) (#23)
by Trollificus on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:15:16 AM EST

"...not that I'd be like interested or anything."

Heh, just wait until Congress reinstates the draft. Then we'll see if you feel the same way. ;)

"The separation of church and state is a fiction. The nation is the kingdom of God, period."
--Bishop Harold Calvin Ray of West Palm Beach, FL
[ Parent ]

That was a joke, son. (nt) (1.00 / 1) (#37)
by DarkZero on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 05:47:43 AM EST



[ Parent ]
I know. Hence the humour in my reply. [n/t] (none / 0) (#38)
by Trollificus on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 06:32:32 AM EST


"The separation of church and state is a fiction. The nation is the kingdom of God, period."
--Bishop Harold Calvin Ray of West Palm Beach, FL
[ Parent ]

i think it's 'wife' not 'knife' (none / 0) (#82)
by mieses on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 08:20:19 PM EST



[ Parent ]
I just figured he was having a darker kind of song (none / 0) (#117)
by ethereal on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 02:23:05 PM EST


--

Stand up for your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and State
[ Parent ]

Canada runs on apathy. (1.33 / 6) (#4)
by DominantParadigm on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:25:53 AM EST

What can I say? Anyways, Canada is Ontario and Quebec plus a bunch of annoying little provinces that think they matter. I can imagine that the maritimes are quite a nasty place.

Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


Clarification.... (1.00 / 2) (#5)
by DominantParadigm on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:27:18 AM EST

By "think they matter," I mean that they're not nearly as well run as Ontario or Quebec.

Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


[ Parent ]
Attitudes bother me more than economy (none / 0) (#6)
by MSBob on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:30:47 AM EST

It is the half assed "don't give a shit" attitude that most people around here have that bothers me more than the economy.

I don't think we have more stamina to give another province a try. We're not getting any younger and must find a stable abode sooner rather than later. Our woes with being mistreated by Canadian companies and some individuals here are just a catalyst of what really was an inevitable end.

I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
There's a reason for that attitude... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
by DominantParadigm on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:35:40 AM EST

The successful people in Canada, like successful people everywhere, don't really have to do anything to be successful(because of rich parents, charisma, whatever). Everyone else notices this and says "Look at that person. Doesn't do a thing and look what they've got" and realizes that working hard is a sucker's game. People who work hard end up with heart attacks and warped personalities, anyways.

Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


[ Parent ]
You've raised my ire. (4.00 / 1) (#28)
by Menard on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:39:33 AM EST

I'm going to hold back on the nasty comments, though. I think you've got your outlook wrong, however, on the reasons for that attitude in the Maritimes. They WERE succesful before confederation, tremendously so, to the extent that maritimes were intending to come together as their OWN independent dominion. John A. MacDonald offered them a mututally beneficial deal if they came together with the central Canadian efforts towards confederation. The offer was a good one, and so they went into that confederation process instead. Once that was finalised, John A. reneged on the promises offered in the deal and proceeded to syphon the wealth of the Maritimes into Ontario. People in central Canada complain about Maritimers being dependent on the government, but that situation was created initially by the federal government sucking away the resources of the provinces, and then perpetuated for decade upon decade by the federal government being unwilling to provide the funds neccesary for the region to get back on it's feet and actually be self-sufficient. As it stands, I think that process has actually begun. Halifax is an economically succesful place, and alot of that strong economy comes from modern, information based sectors, tech development and entertainment especially. I think that, properly managed, that success will spread to the rest of the region over the next decade or two, and the Maritimes will have emerged from the constant fucking-over of the last century. This isn't helped, however, by people such as yourself perpetuating the same goddamn myths over and over again.

There, a rational argument AND I only swore twice!

[ Parent ]

I was speaking about all Canadians... (none / 0) (#29)
by DominantParadigm on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:46:02 AM EST

Maybe excluding Toronto.

Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


[ Parent ]
To tell the truth (none / 0) (#32)
by Menard on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:54:53 AM EST

I replied in the wrong spot, the reply was aimed more at your original post than at these ones. Honestly, I'm not even sure I follow your 'succesful people' train of thought here. I'm not sure what conclusion you're driving at there. Anyway, pretend that the post was attached to the root post rather than this stuff.

[ Parent ]
Toronto is not a part of Canada (nt) (none / 0) (#56)
by JahToasted on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:34:06 PM EST



[ Parent ]
In addition... (none / 0) (#30)
by DominantParadigm on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:47:47 AM EST

I was being literal. I really meant that successful people (not places) don't work hard at all, and that everyone else picks up the vibe.

Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


[ Parent ]
Glib, Stupid, Wrong (4.50 / 2) (#113)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 12:40:49 PM EST

Anyways, Canada is Ontario and Quebec plus a bunch of annoying little provinces...

Discounting the economic value of Alberta and BC is worse than foolish, it's just plain ignorant.

The idea that Canada's economy runs on just two central-Canadian pistons is old, hackneyed, and far from reality.


"I'm warning you, Mister. I've had about as much of your homelessness as I'm willing to take." -Lt. Twelve-Douze, Parent ]
Okay... (4.14 / 7) (#8)
by the77x42 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:35:26 AM EST

I can run in a string of Polish jokes, but I would be better to attack your logic. Or is that the same? Just because you are an immigrant doesn't mean you are treated like shit... you are treated like shit because we live in a shitty world.

People get treated like shit whether they are white or smart or Polish or from Mars. Welcome to the real world. If you want to go back to your polluted air and your farms, be my guest. Don't rant about Canada because you made a mistake. You can deal with it and put up with shitty corporations trying to rip you off like the rest of us, or you can live on a farm.

My friend emmigrated from Poland 13 years ago and his parents both hold degrees and make $10/hour working at a hotel. I have another friend born and raised in Canada and his parents make $10/hour too. Live with it. Life sucks.

Immigrants don't have special status unless you are wealthy Hong Kongers -- then you can have the best education available. Everyone else, including us pure-blood Canadians, get the stick in the ass.

But at least the air is clean.

On a side note; did you hear about the Polish car pool? You meet at work.




"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

oh, and everyone knows BC is the place to be. [nt] (4.00 / 3) (#10)
by the77x42 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:38:41 AM EST




"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]
I hear BC doesn't have many french girls (3.00 / 2) (#12)
by DominantParadigm on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:41:18 AM EST

Therefore , by definition, it cannot be the place to be.

Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


[ Parent ]
why the fuck do you want french chicks? (5.00 / 2) (#13)
by the77x42 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:42:59 AM EST

Vancouver has the hottest chicks in the world. If you disagree, you haven't lived here.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]
amen. Got me one of those :) (n/t) (none / 0) (#25)
by SanSeveroPrince on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:19:50 AM EST



----

Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think


[ Parent ]
Hmm (none / 0) (#14)
by carbon on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:43:26 AM EST

If you can't bring the French girls to Cananda, then maybe you should bring the Canada to the French girls!


Wasn't Dr. Claus the bad guy on Inspector Gadget? - dirvish
[ Parent ]
and another thing... (1.75 / 4) (#11)
by the77x42 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:40:30 AM EST

Why the fuck would you go to Newfoundland? Of course your life is going to be shit. They're a bunch of hicks, shouldn't even be a part of Canada... BC is the place to be. You can come join the rest of the 90% of the population here who are immigrants.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]
Saint John isn't in NF, just so you know (n/t) (none / 0) (#16)
by MSBob on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:45:42 AM EST


I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
doh, same shit diff pile... NB then ;) [nt] (1.00 / 2) (#17)
by the77x42 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:47:45 AM EST




"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]
You're thinking of St. John's (5.00 / 3) (#33)
by Menard on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 04:29:21 AM EST

With an 's'. Also, aren't assholes who think that people are "a bunch of hicks," who "shouldn't even be a part of Canada," because of where they were born and what culture they were raised in the exact problem that MSBob is complaining about in the first place? In an earlier post to this essay, I said I had no idea what we could do to end racism and cultural discrimination. From the posts I've seen here, I've come to the conclusion that not discriminating against our own fucking original citizens in the first place is step number one. Jesus. How can we even pretend to be a nation able to accept immigrants openly if we are comfortable denigrating the populations of entire provinces in this fashion?

[ Parent ]
Can't deny facts (4.50 / 2) (#15)
by MSBob on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:43:43 AM EST

You can make statement about how "life sucks" in general but you can't deny that the percentage of native born Canadians living below the poverty line is at around 20% (fucking high). However, the percentage of immigrants living below the poverty line is at 52% (abso-fucking-lutely disastrous). Yet the liberals think there is an urgent need to bring in even larger hordes of gullible hopefuls.

PS. Polish jokes are lame, yours included.

I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
Numbers (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by the77x42 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:49:45 AM EST

Statistics are relative and debatable. I don't know where your sources are for those figures, but from what I see, in Vancouver at least, the majority of immigrants are either coming here illegally, hidden in contains, or they are driving Lexus' and BMW's.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]
Not statistics (none / 0) (#21)
by MSBob on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:00:45 AM EST

It is hardcore data based on income tax returns.
I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
Did you hear about the Polish lottery? (2.83 / 6) (#20)
by the77x42 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:58:05 AM EST

A dollar year for a million years.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]
Did you hear about the Polish space shuttle? (1.00 / 2) (#39)
by evilpenguin on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 07:19:40 AM EST

Yeah, at 300 feet, they ran out of coal.
--
# nohup cat /dev/dsp > /dev/hda & killall -9 getty
[ Parent ]
Ethnic jokes, stereotypes [increasingly off-topic] (none / 0) (#128)
by Repton on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 05:32:36 PM EST

Y'know, it's odd. I don't know much about Poland or Poles, except that (1) Poland got it pretty bad in WW2, and (2) Stanislaw Lem is Polish. So jokes like the parent don't make much sense to me.

I can sort of infer from the joke what the stereotype might be, and then go from that to figure out where the humour is ... but it doesn't work very well, and doesn't make it funny.

It's kinda like Jews. Where I live (New Zealand), there isn't a strong Jewish presence. So I grew up without learning any of the Jewish stereotypes. Since I entered my twenties, I have learnt a few of the stereotypes from various things I've read, but it's still an intellectual thing, not an ingrained thing...

Anyway, the main point for this post is to share my favourite Polish joke:

A bunch of Polish scientists decided to flee their repressive government by hijacking an airliner and forcing the pilot to fly them to the West. They drove to the airport, forced their way on board a large passenger jet, and found there was no pilot on board. Terrified, they listened as the sirens got louder. Finally, one of the scientists suggested that since he was an experimentalist, he would try to fly the aircraft.

He sat down at the controls and tried to figure them out. The sirens got louder and louder. Armed men surrounded the jet. The would be pilot's friends cried out, "Please, please take off now! Hurry!"

The experimentalist calmly replied, "Have patience. I'm just a simple Pole in a complex plane."


--
Repton.
They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle..
[ Parent ]

Polish jokes are hurtful (4.00 / 1) (#133)
by MSBob on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 07:52:32 PM EST

Just like Newfie (poor, stupid), Scottish (tight fisted), Jewish (greedy) they all stereotype and even though they are only meant to entertain, it is still disrespectful of those who happen to be subjects.

Polish jokes didn't exist before WWII. As Soviet Union essentially invaded the country Poles fled in millions and many weren't prepared for the life abroad (ie. no langugage, no money etc.). Because the lack of English language skills was so noticable they were quickly branded "stupid" and the jokes followed. It is really sad to be branded "stupid" when all they wanted to do is flee incarceration or death in some cases.

I laugh when I hear jokes about Poles but deep inside it's quite painful actually.

I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
More info. (5.00 / 1) (#151)
by tekue on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 08:56:38 AM EST

(1) Poland got it pretty bad in WW2, and (2) Stanislaw Lem is Polish
It's also helpfull to know that (1a) ...but Polish Army still planted their flag at those famous gates in Berlin in 1945, and (2b) ...and so were Copernicus, Sklodowska-Curie, and Chopin. Well, as is the current Roman-Catholic pope.

Polish jokes (as in "made in Poland") also use national stereotypes, such as tight-fisted Scots, drunk/primitive Russians, or order-fixated/tasteless Germans. For stupidity though we use US Americans, who are always to find dumbest, simpletoonish explanations and solutions.

BTW, I don't get the joke, what's the catch?
--
A society that puts equality ahead of freedom will end up with neither. -Milton Friedman
[ Parent ]

Joke explanation... (5.00 / 1) (#190)
by Repton on Tue Feb 18, 2003 at 01:39:11 AM EST

Sorry. It's a mathematical pun --- absolutely nothing to do with Polish stereotypes.

Complex analysis is not my strong suit, so I can't remember the details ... But a pole is a singularity of a complex function (ie: somewhere where the function is undefined ... kinda). If you're doing contour integration of a function in the complex plane, you care about where the poles are, because if there're no poles enclosed by your circle (I forget the jargon), the contour integral is zero.

(hence the other joke: What's the contour integral of western Europe? Zero --- because all the Poles are in eastern Europe.)

For more information, go study analysis at university :-) (and try and do better than I did)


--
Repton.
They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle..
[ Parent ]

jokes (none / 0) (#57)
by Happy Monkey on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:40:48 PM EST

PS. Polish jokes are lame, yours included.

How about Noofie jokes?

How about Polish Noofie jokes?
___
Length 17, Width 3
[ Parent ]
This is an interesting outlook (5.00 / 5) (#24)
by Menard on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:19:01 AM EST

It's certainly a view that people might not have of the immigration system in Canada, as the two views nowadays tend to be A) sieve for evil terroists to sneak into America, or B) ideal system. I might have cause to dispute the severity of the problem as described, though. First of all, the Fraser institute is apparently a pretty hard right wing think-tank, to the extent that it was used as an example in a recent CBC (a Canadian Public TV station) round-table show on whether reporters should identify the political slant of think tanks whose studies they use. So they might well have a vested interest in both making government policy look bad, and in trashing the immigration policy specifically, as it's a program unpopular with the Canadian right. I don't want to speak definitively here, as I don't really know that much about the institute, but maybe another reader would have some links about it, and also maybe some critiques of this specific study?

That said, there obviously is a realy problem in the Canadian system of immigration. I don't agree, however, that it should be scrapped because of this, I think it should be fixed. I think that maintaining a working progressive immigration policy is crucial to Canada's economic growth. As our birth rate diminishes, a major source of new members of the work force will be immigrants, and it's important that we prepare an excellent system in advance of this need, rather than in response to it when it becomes a crisis. Furthermore, such a program would be something we could hold up to the world a an example of Canada's success, and be proud of. As it stands, I think many Canadians are that proud of the immigration system currently, but as your example shows, it seems that maybe the system does not yet deserve such pride. Like medicare, I think multiculturalism is a major part of the Canadian identity, but, also like medicare, this does not mean that we can simply be proud of it and disregard the problems. Wee need to try and fix it, just like wer're trying to fix medicare now.

How will we do this? I don't really know, but I think I'm aware of two key areas. Whatever else we do, I feel that we almost certainly will have to address job certification, and we will have to work more stridently to end racism and racial discrimination within Canada. Although this wasn't addressed directly in your article (IIRC), one major obstacle for skilled immigrants in finding employment is the matter of job certification. For professionals who require certification to work, such as doctors, nurses, or engineers, it can be tremendously difficult to accquire Canadian equivalency for the certifications they accquired in their countries of origin. The government needs to put money into streamlining the process of granting such equivalencies, so that they are easy to apply for, and so that the person processing the request can easily review the neccesary data and grant the request quickly, rather than the current waiting period of several years. It will also be important to hire many more such processing staff, as I understand one major obstacle is that the immigration department is swamped witht his sort of work. A related problem is that of universities only accepting as valid degrees from certain foreign institutions, when hiring professors, researchers, and the like. Ideally, the government would work with the country's universities in order to make this process easier. The second issue is, of course, much more difficult to deal with. How on earth do you actually stop racism? More money is needed for awareness campaigns, certainly, but awaeness campaigns only go so far. I think the government and corporations (though corporations, is, of course, harder to do here) need to make it more obvious that any discriminatory behaviour simply isn't tolerated, and is grounds for dismissal. I think such a cleaning of the government house would make it alot simpler to create fair, equal and efficient immigration programs. In Canada's defence, I would say that it seems to me that it is the most accepting of multiculturalism of all the major countries of the world, of all the other G8 countries at the very least. Also, although my evidence here is only anecdotal, it seems that the acceptance of people of different races and cultures is an important part of public school curriculae in the country. I think that, when the generation that is currently in elementary school grows up, racism will be a much diminished force in the country. Again, that's only an anecdotal observation, and maybe too idealist.

A few specific thoughts :

I'm a maritimer, and I certainly love the region, but I think that there should be a special booklet made for new immigrants entitled "Don't Fucking Settle in the Maritimes." It's a beautiful place, and the people (in my experience) are nice, but it's an economic hellhole. The whole place has collapsed, and unemployment is high. Aside from Newfoundland, which, really, is basically Maritime too, you couldn't find a worse region of the country to look for a livelihood, barring perhaps the Territories. This isn't really directed at you, but is advice for anyone reading this article and thinking of settling in this part of the country. Again, it has it's benefits, especially natural splendour (New Brunswick I particularly love, actually, it's just beautiful land), but you're really looking at an uphill financial battle. The one exception here would be Halifax, capital of Nova Scotia, which, although traditionally just as destitute as the rest of the region, has been booming for the past ten years. Although the events of recent years have taken some of the shine off the boom, the job market is still pretty open, and if you're involved in the tech sector, my understanding is you've still got a pretty good chance of landing something nice. Halifax also has a larger immigrant community than other major cities in the region, and so there would probably be at least a little less discrimination on that front.

Are you sure the Irving Oil thing was a case of cultural discrimination. I'm not at all trying to cast aspersions on you, but I know people on the same Irving direct billing plan, and my impression was that no-one ever even came by to look at the meter, the whole thing was automtic. Wo would they have even known you were an immigrant? Mayb this specific case was just a normal corporate cock-up?

As for the workmen never calling back or showing up, again, people I know, ancestrally Canadian for many generations, have had that happen to them many a time. Electricians never showing up, electricians saying a job was impossible because  they didn't feel like having to do it, a plumber, for example, forgot to bill someone for work on some sinks for 4 months. He ended up calling them back to ask if he'd ever sent them a bill, as he really wasn't good at remembering to do stuff like that. So you might want to chalk things like this up to the laid-back maritime outlook on life. Utterly ineffectual workmen seems like a fact of life around here, I think. Although, again, I cannot know the specific details of your case.

How I landed (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by MSBob on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:32:45 AM EST

We landed in Calgary at first because I had prior experience coding software for Oil and Gas corps. Luck had it that the first job offer came from Saint John and we headed for what seemed like the lower risk option and thinking that my wife would land something over time.

Your point about tradesmen here is taken although my Canadian friends don't seem to have nearly the amount of trouble that I do. But I concur it could have been a string of bad luck so I took it out of the article... it was too rantish anyways. Thanks for the feedback though.

Like I said I never made the decision to live in the impoverished New Brunswick but as luck would have it that's exactly where we ended up. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to move to another province within Canada as employers seem to ignore resumes from outside of their locality.

I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
Yeah. (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by Menard on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:48:24 AM EST

It's difficult to live in the maritimes. See my (somewhat ranty in that I was pissed-off and over-reacting) post below that sort of skims the history of the economic problems. You might want to look in Halifax, as it is at least within the same region, and is, as I noted, a very different economic situation to the rest of the maritimes. Being as it's not that far from New Brunswick, employers might be less likely to pass over your resume due to distance. It would also be a much easier move for you and your wife due to closeness. It's about four hours by car, if memory serves me. Also, with the recent discovery of offshore natural gas, and the building of a pipeline for same, there are probably some openings for someone with experience in that sector.

[ Parent ]
WTF? (none / 0) (#54)
by JahToasted on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:20:09 PM EST

You went from Calgary to get a job in New Brunswick? Are you on crack?

In New Brunswick Calgary is considered the promised land. Masses of Maritimers go West looking for work.

You should've stayed in Alberta man. They actually have an economy there.

[ Parent ]

It's the trend. (none / 0) (#77)
by Dr Caleb on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 06:04:08 PM EST

Any able bodied Newf is already in Fort McMurray, Calgary or Grande Prairie. All 'dem buys finished the work back home, and came down here ta give us fellers a hand.

's why Fort Mac Alberta is considered Newfoundland's second largest city.


Baroque: [Bar-oak] (adj.) (s.) ; What you are when you have no Monet.

There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

its true... (4.00 / 1) (#78)
by JahToasted on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 06:22:14 PM EST

by de tunderin jesus its true, buy...

[ Parent ]
Yis maid! (none / 0) (#177)
by Dest on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 03:43:40 PM EST

n/t

----
Dest

"Bah. You have no taste, you won't be getting better than tofurkey bukkake." -- Ni
[ Parent ]
arr (4.00 / 1) (#93)
by tarsand on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 01:42:08 AM EST

That's why I love Fort McMurray... all the newf, a quarter the distance.


"Oh, no, I agree with tarsand!" -- trhurler
[ Parent ]
Tarsand? (none / 0) (#118)
by Dr Caleb on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 02:53:58 PM EST

Sounds like you're there now - you can relate! Can't swin a dead cat in the Oil Can without hittin a Newf.


Baroque: [Bar-oak] (adj.) (s.) ; What you are when you have no Monet.

There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

Imported cultures? (3.00 / 4) (#26)
by thom2 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:30:06 AM EST

Immigration to developed countries is increasingly becomning a problem. Modern technology is making it increasingly easy for foreigners to come to a country and import all the music, news, and culture from their home country along with them. These imported cultures can lead to unsightly problematic growths in the national petri dish, so to speak.

The problem is it is too easy for these people to create little monocultural ghettos, enjoying the benefits of their adopted country without bothering to learn about the culture that helped make that country so prosperous. The result is a long march to balkanization.

This may seem radical, but I think the time is right for countries like Canada, Europe, and the US to try a moratorium on immigration for a time, to see if that helps matters.

uhm (4.20 / 5) (#41)
by turmeric on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 07:34:01 AM EST

immigration is where our culture COMES FROM. american culture is the mix of the immigrant cultures. you stop immigration, you stop change, and that is stagnation and death

[ Parent ]
not quite (1.00 / 1) (#51)
by thom2 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 11:41:51 AM EST

The free mixing of cultures and assimilation of foreigners into the American way of life is what develops and sustains our culture.

When immigrants just build miniature versions of their own countries within their adopted country's borders, and wall themselves off from mainstream culture, then that nation's society is in fragmentation.

[ Parent ]
Yes, well, that's your country (5.00 / 1) (#58)
by DominantParadigm on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:46:42 PM EST

The free mixing of cultures and assimilation of foreigners into the American way of life is what develops and sustains our culture.

Canada tries not to turn everyone into the Borg.



Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


[ Parent ]
Glad you brought that up (none / 0) (#88)
by thom2 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 11:13:59 PM EST

Canada has a much more sensible immigration policy than the US, as it is much more difficult for foreigners to enter the country and gain citizenship, and Canada concentrates on letting in aliens from more developed countries, who will fit in better with the national culture and be much more likely to speak English.

This is just one of the many areas in which the United States can learn from Canada.

[ Parent ]
Are you for real? (5.00 / 1) (#94)
by DominantParadigm on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 02:06:57 AM EST

That's not what I said at all ; The United States expects everybody to act the same, as you said yourself when you said that there was an expectation of " assimilation of foreigners into the American way of life ."

and Canada concentrates on letting in aliens from more developed countries

Statistics Canada disagrees for 1991-1996

UK:25,420 US:29,025 Other northern and western Europe:31,705 Southern Europe:52,455 Oceania:9,875

Those are the developed countries and regions. They add up to a grand total of 148480 persons from developed countries. The total number of immigrants is 1,038,990 ; therefore, persons from developed countries make up 14.3% of the immigrant population for that time period.

This flies in the face of your assertation. What planted that idea into your head?



Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


[ Parent ]
well, I'm not imaginary (none / 0) (#99)
by thom2 on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 03:42:06 AM EST

If you do a little further research, you'll notice that as a percentage of total immigrants, Canada lets in a much higher number of immigrants from developed countries like the US, Western Europe, China, and Japan. Furthermore, while importing thousands of foreign guest workers is all well and good, keep in mind that it is very difficult to actually become a citizen of Canada, which is as it should be.

[ Parent ]
Ah yes, China sure is a developed nation (none / 0) (#104)
by DominantParadigm on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 07:13:51 AM EST

Please concede defeat. It's embarassing.

Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


[ Parent ]
No, actually, it's not. (5.00 / 1) (#107)
by aziegler on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 10:20:22 AM EST

The requirements are: live three of the past four years resident in Canada; make an application; pass a simple exam.

Sorry, but having just obtained my Canadian citizenship in August, you don't know what you're talking about. (I finished the 20-question multiple choice exam in five minutes. I'm very smart and very good at taking tests, but the exam was a joke.)

-austin

[ Parent ]

The difficulty... (none / 0) (#130)
by Menard on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 06:09:30 PM EST

As I understand it, is really in the first part, three of the past four years, as that requires getting visas and permits to work in Canada, finding a job, finding a place to lve. That's the difficult stuff more than the getting citizenship after that. Again, this is just how I've come to understand it, no direct experience here.

[ Parent ]
Landing in Canada (none / 0) (#138)
by aziegler on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 09:48:31 PM EST

It's not that hard; it does have some conditions, but you must be a permanent resident ("Landed Immigrant") to get the citizenship.

It took me 8 months to get my landing card, three years of living here, and 8 months to get my citizenship after application.

Immigration to Canada is not difficult for college-educated folk who have good job opportunities.

(The truly perverse thing is that those PhDs and MDs and such from India and the like are actively sought for immigration; they are treated like shit by the provincial governments, though.)

-austin

[ Parent ]

Oh yes.... (3.66 / 3) (#61)
by Tezcatlipoca on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:52:36 PM EST

That rosy past in which blacks mixed with whites, in which English mixed with Irish later on to mix with Germans or Italians. And then the Chinese and the Japanese. And it must be only my bad memory, allow this poor man some leeway, memory is failing me now, but my Mexican friends in the US were not allowed to settle in white areas in the 60s and even the 80s (not allowed meaning terrorized out of the "wrong" area by thugs).

Oh man, where is that town in the US where you are living in which integration happened so happily in a bygone era.

Past times were always better ..... NOT.

"Stay a while, I'm distraught but juiced on your nearness."- johnny
[ Parent ]

go easy on the white man (1.00 / 1) (#89)
by turmeric on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 11:36:09 PM EST

they are born stupid , they grow up stupid, and most of them die stupid. you cant expect them to understand the world.

[ Parent ]
Good thing I'm not a white man. (none / 0) (#102)
by thom2 on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 04:39:08 AM EST

By the way, don't you know that when you stoop to insults it's a sign you're losing the argument? Or is it just past your bedtime?

[ Parent ]
I'm sorry about your friends. (5.00 / 1) (#101)
by thom2 on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 04:36:45 AM EST

But anecdotal evidence proves exactly nothing. At no point did I say the past was always better. I did however mention that cultural balkanization is bad for a country (to give a few examples, see Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Iraq, etc.), a point which I notice you did not address.

[ Parent ]
But his point... (none / 0) (#131)
by Menard on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 06:12:36 PM EST

Is that cultural divisions always exist in the first generations of any group of immigrants, but things eventually work out.

[ Parent ]
Especially... (none / 0) (#65)
by aziegler on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 01:02:33 PM EST

since most Western countries population growth would be negative without immigration...

-austin

[ Parent ]

Well almost. (2.33 / 3) (#68)
by tkatchev on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 01:43:33 PM EST

Except for those Niggers and Indians that nobody ever seems to notice...

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

Bullshit. (3.66 / 3) (#64)
by aziegler on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 01:01:43 PM EST

People have always brought their cultures with them. It's just that a lot of the subculture has also been assimilated by the wider culture; it's just that more "exotic" cultures are being brought in and assimilated now (not just European cultures).

-austin

[ Parent ]

Agreed. (3.66 / 3) (#70)
by Menard on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:18:57 PM EST

The intermixing of so many foreign cultures is what makes Canada such an interesting place to live in these days, and I would certainly prefer it to some homogenized mono-culture that would develop from A) not letting any foreigners in or B) somehow forcing them to abandon their entire cultural identity. If you ask me, they ARE integrated with the society, they're just maintaining their own cultural identity as well. Besides, I don't think first generation immigrants are the people to look at here, I think moving into a completely foreign country as an adult must be tremendously difficult to adjust to, and so of course these sort of effects occur. I think that if you look at second generation immigrants, people who grew up here, a more easy integration of the two cultures will probably be seen.

At any rate, I think my point here is that I'd much rather have the benefit of experiencing the diverse cultures of immigrants than see them forced to adopt some vague concept of 'western-ness' wholesale. And hey, as an added bonus, having a greatly multi-cultural society conveniently solves the 'boring-ass North American food' issue!

[ Parent ]

I need a snappy comeback for the subject (5.00 / 1) (#100)
by thom2 on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 04:02:18 AM EST

What's the opposite of "bullshit"? Cowpiss?

Anyway, the problem is that now cultures are *not* assimilating, they just bring their dvd's, sattelite TV channels, cd's and everything else with them, and dig in. They even demand road signs and school classes in their native langages. If you want to see the end result of this process, try moving to Los Angeles, a city rent by ethnic strife. The only people who live in that horible place are those too poor to flee or too rich to care.

[ Parent ]
You're still wrong... (3.66 / 3) (#106)
by aziegler on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 10:14:42 AM EST

...and LA is a particularly bad example of why. LA's problems are more economic than ethnic, but are particularly bad because of the city's poor black and latino populations, the latter also having the problem of significant numbers of illegal immigrants.

Every immigrant group (from the Irish to the Italians and beyond) has faced discrimination and, hence, has "kept to their own kind" for the first generation or so. Assimilation (which is a two way street, by the by) doesn't happen with first generation, or even necessarily second generation, immigrants. It's a multi-generational thing.

Did you see My Big Fat Greek Wedding? It was set in Chicago, where there's a "Greektown" (it was shot in Toronto, where I don't know of a "Greektown" as such). What about Bollywood/Hollywood? Great film, and it shows that the Indian community in Toronto is integrating without being assimilated. (In many of the more multicultural cities in the world, like Toronto and New York, but not just there, you can easily find ethnic foods.) There was a recent story on one of the CBC's news/interest programmes (Venture, I believe) about how popular samosas have become. That's a southeast Asian food (a street vendor food, no less) which has become popular with all ethnic groups in North America.

For what its worth, you should look carefully at what you're saying -- it applies to what many Americans do when they live outside of the US as well. They "ghettoize" (a word that has the rich history of a people who were forced by others to live in proximity to each other behind it).

As I said at the top: LA's problems are not because of ethnicity, but because of class and economic disparity; New York and Toronto are far more ethnically diverse than LA and don't have its problems. (Toronto was recently noted as the most multicultural city in the world, having more ethnic groups living here, both in and out of enclaves, than any other city anywhere in the world.)

-austin

[ Parent ]

the opposite (5.00 / 1) (#115)
by fishling on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 02:07:15 PM EST

i would think it would be grass.  :)

[ Parent ]
you wanna see something really freaky? (none / 0) (#157)
by Kintanon on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 01:21:12 PM EST

Drive to Miami. You get to watch the language of the signs slowly go from English -> Mostly English, Some Spanish -> Half and Half -> Mostly Spanish, Some English -> All Spanish. There are places in Miami where no one speaks english, at all. And I don't mean just a city block filled with recent refuges or something, I'm talking about multiple neighborhoods.
It's somewhat crazy. I can see keeping your native culture alive within your home, but turning the place you immigrate to into a damn near carbon copy of what you left? Why?!

Kintanon

[ Parent ]

No moratorium, thank you (none / 0) (#165)
by Quietti on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 07:45:01 PM EST

I'm not going back to Canada. Ever. Fuck that!

Meanwhile, I've already been in Finland for 5 years and care deelply about this country; however that doesn't mean I should be expected to endure Finland's police state attitude or EU's dreaded Schengen treaty, just because Nokia's stock is going down and because politicians are playing catchup in implementing George Orwell's vision of continents in endless wars against each other.

--
The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky
[ Parent ]

One Sided Ideology (5.00 / 6) (#34)
by opendna on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 04:49:00 AM EST

You may be a "first generation Polish immigrant" but if your only source is a Fraser Institute report you deserve to be called a "right wing racist xenophobe" or at least a "right wing ideologue". If you only used a Council of Canadians report you'd be a "left wing ideologue". If you used both, you'd at least be ballanced.

-1 stands for "1 politicized source".



Some more info on labour force and immigration... (3.50 / 2) (#36)
by maevelite on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 05:34:20 AM EST

first of all: +1sp. immigration hasn't exactly become the 'hot topic' here in canada that i thought it would. i'd be interested in hearing more disscussion form other people. here is another information source for people to look over. the highlights from the 2001 labour force census here. main points include:
  • Immigrants accounted for almost 70 per cent of the growth in the workforce over the last decade.
  • Statistics Canada says it's possible that immigration could account for virtually all labour force growth by 2011.
  • In 2001, only 65.8 per cent of recent immigrants - those who arrived in the five years prior to the census - were employed, compared to 81.8 per cent of those born in Canada.
not exactly something to be happy about for someone like me, who is just entering the workforce and will most certainly be supporting these 'refuges' et al, on top of those damn baby boomers. but i don't see any change in policies comming any time soon. especially since recent estimates suggest that by 2011 there will be severe labour shortages in many fields (see above).

Sure (4.16 / 6) (#42)
by Rogerborg on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 08:01:15 AM EST

90% of car drivers think that there there should be fewer cars on the road, just like 90% of immigrants think the border should have been closed as soon as they crossed it.

"Exterminate all rational thought." - W.S. Burroughs

I'm not staying here (n/t) (none / 0) (#44)
by MSBob on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 09:03:37 AM EST


I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
Cheerfully retracted (4.85 / 7) (#45)
by Rogerborg on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 09:08:22 AM EST

Sorry, it was a knee jerk response.  You've clearly put some thought into this, and it was unfair of me to dismiss it so glibly.

For what it's worth, my own thought is that we should drop all barriers to freedom of movement, and after the anarchy, rebuild a genuine global capitalist society rather than a few super rich insular and protective soap-bubble economies.

It'll be painful, but to do otherwise is just imperialism by another name.

"Exterminate all rational thought." - W.S. Burroughs
[ Parent ]

Damn, now THAT's maturity (none / 0) (#48)
by Vygramul on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 10:22:58 AM EST

"A good man is not without sin. He admits and expiates it."
If Brute Force isn't working, you're not using enough.
[ Parent ]
Where I stopped reading (4.61 / 13) (#46)
by sticky on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 09:47:59 AM EST

"...report published by the Fraser Institute."

You may not be a right wing racist xenophobe but most of those guys are.


Don't eat the shrimp.---God

Regardless of what the feebs say about Frasier... (3.40 / 5) (#47)
by Imperfect on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 10:13:25 AM EST

The report in this situation is, in fact, right. I'm not an immigrant myself. Born and bred in South-East Ontario. However, I've known many an immigrant in my life and they all have the same stories to tell. No job, no money, no food, no prospects, no hope.

Granted, it's not usually so bad they're homeless, but it generally sucks. You wonder why all the people running corner stores are East Indian? That's because the hospitals they have those PHDs for won't hire them. Half the time immigrants are discriminated against on a personal level by individual people, and the other half of the time, they're "legally" discirminated against. Many foreign teaching and medicine graduates get told upon arrival that their credentials are no good here and they must re-take their courses.

This is all nonsense. Further, when many can't find a job they seek welfare. It's a must. When one is starving, one needs food. For food, one needs money. For money, a lot of immegrants need welfare. It stinks and it needs to stop, especially since our welfare programs are already overburdened with lazy and ignorant natives who can't or won't get jobs.

Just to give you a clue why I'm so upset about native Canadians on welfare, I come from a town where the term "third-generations welfare mother" doesnt automatically grant you instant scorn by the general populace.

We're trying to adjust our welfare/workfare/social services program to accomodate what we already have. We don't need any more people that our "best and brightest" won't give jobs to. For their sake and ours.

Not perfect, not quite.
you get a 1... (1.00 / 3) (#60)
by Run4YourLives on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:51:34 PM EST

because you drifted off from a decent argument to a racist diatribe against the first nations people as a whole...

You should learn to look past "your little town" and realize that it does not mirror the whole fricken country.


It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]

For crying out loud... (5.00 / 1) (#66)
by DominantParadigm on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 01:02:36 PM EST

In the context, it's pretty obvious that native means "born in Canada."

Caller:So you're advocating bombing innocent children? Howard Stern:Yes, of course!


[ Parent ]
hmm... (1.00 / 1) (#67)
by Run4YourLives on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 01:05:43 PM EST

I thought he might mean that... but it was used twice, once in bold as a description...

maybe he'll clarify...


It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]

Clarification, though it's likely too late (none / 0) (#144)
by Imperfect on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 05:01:00 AM EST

By native I mean born here. I don't mean Capital "Native Americans"/"Indians"/"First Nations"/"Whaddeveryacallemnowadays" people. I happen to think they're fine.

I'm talking about the white, hick, lazy, shiftless, jobless, welfare-receiving, beer-store frequenting, hitting Burger King on the 1st and 15th of the month for $40 of grease-kind-of-person. They exist, and sadly in great and far-too-encouraged numbers.

Now I won't say that there's not people out there who use welfare for the right reason - the intended reason. But as a friend of mine put it, there's far too damn many people who "use welfare not like a safety net, but like a trampoline."

And now that I'm thinking about it, I'd like to amend that above statement about white, hick, lazy, shiftless, etc. to just lazy, shiftless etc. 'Cause I've seen the white man do it, the black man do it, the asian man do it, and the "Native" man do it. (Quotes added 'cause I don't know what they're actually being called nowadays.) It matters not what skin they are, just that they're a useless drain on society and I can't stand 'em.

Not perfect, not quite.
[ Parent ]
Thanks! (none / 0) (#156)
by Run4YourLives on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 12:07:46 PM EST

I'm sure you'll agree if you re-read your comment, it could have been taken the why I took it...

In this case though, moderation changed!


It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]

Understood (none / 0) (#167)
by Imperfect on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 08:04:38 PM EST

I re-read it the instant I started noticing I was getting flamed on it. In the future, I'll be a little more careful.

Not perfect, not quite.
[ Parent ]
Fraser's not right, but not wrong... (3.00 / 2) (#63)
by aziegler on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:57:08 PM EST

The report isn't right, but neither is it wrong. The hospitals, by the way, would hire these folks -- qualified doctors, they are -- but the province won't license them, and the federal government is doing shit about arm-twisting the provinces to do anything about this injustice (it's been the subject of several second-half documentaries on The National).

Of course, it's not useful that you demonstrate a racist attitude toward First Nations folks; most aren't lazy or ignorant -- the opportunities for advancement just aren't there. (It doesn't help that many of the First Nations leadership councils are corrupt or near-corrupt, but there's a lot of history behind First Nations stuff, and your assumption of "lazy and ignorant" is just pig-ugly racism.)

-austin

[ Parent ]

Native-born, not Native American (none / 0) (#145)
by Imperfect on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 05:03:21 AM EST

I'm not racist, and I'm not assuming anything. I mean people on welfare who were born in Canada and abuse it. I'm observing things, and I observe lazy, ignorant, useless welfare people all around. Not all of them, but an unfortunate lot of them.

You're the only one assuming between the two of us, and doing so incorrectly. Read my post below this for more.

Not perfect, not quite.
[ Parent ]
Fair enough. (none / 0) (#155)
by aziegler on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 11:39:04 AM EST

You should be more cautious of your wording in the future.

However, with your clarification, please allow me to retract my accusation of a racist attitude.

-austin

[ Parent ]

Last One in Lock the Door (2.00 / 5) (#49)
by daishan on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 11:02:37 AM EST

Perhaps you should try looking for a job. In Canada the state will try to find a job for you, but it's never a job you'd actually want.

I dislike Canada's practice of poaching skilled workers. I'd prefer to admit more refugees, they want to work. It seems the "skilled" workers from former eastern block countries are most highly skilled at accessing government aid and not much else.

My perspective (4.66 / 3) (#52)
by rhino1302 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 11:44:22 AM EST

I work in a technical field in the US, but the problems I see are similar to what you describe. In our office we have a mix of immigrants and natives. The average education level of the immigrants is much higher then the natives, and the income level is the reverse.

The problem is that the higher you are on the totem pole, the less important your technical skills are, and the more important getting work, keeping the client happy and protecting the people doing the actual work from corporate BS is. Immigrants tend to be very bad at those things, probably for cultural reasons. There's also a feed-back effect - If you don't protect your staff from the corporate weenies, they won't work as hard, you'll miss deadlines and make the client unhappy and they won't give you more work.

The response of many of the over-educated immigrants to this problem is to do all of the work themselves. Some can pull it off, some can't. Those that do end up bitter, and they'll never advance because they're limited to what they can get done themselves.

It sucks, but there's nothing that can be done about it. Technical skills may get you in the door, but unless you can scale you won't advance.



Tough times in the Maritimes (4.80 / 5) (#53)
by JahToasted on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:11:51 PM EST

When reading what you wrote, I was wondering where in Canada did you go to? Reading the comments I found out that you went to New Brunswick. Then it all made sense. I'm from New Brunswick myself.

My family has been in New Brunswick since the 18th Century. I have a B.Sc. in Computer Science from the top undergraduate university in Canada (which also happens to be in NB).

I could not find a job in New Brunswick.

Maybe racism is the problem. Or maybe the economy is shitty in the Maritimes.

Fact is, most young people from the Maritimes are moving out of there because there just isn't any jobs. I know I did. Sorry to break it to you, but you moved to the one part of Canada that everyone else is trying to get out of.

Also, does your wife know french? New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province in an officially bilingual country. Meaning, if your wife desn't parlez la francais, she's SOL. You mention that she got replies with a canadian sounding name... what names did you use? Were they french sounding? You'll have a lot of luck with french sounding names when applying for government jobs in New Brunswick. Although Saint John is mostly english, so you don't have to worry as much about being discriminated based on language.

I'll admit that there is some amount of racism in the Maritimes, as there is in any rural area. But you're white, right? You probably don't have to worry too much about racism then.

Theres a saying we have: Tough times in the Maritimes. The economy in the Maritimes is shitty always has been. When the depression in the 30's hit the Maritimes, nobody noticed because things were always that bad.

Sorry to break it to you pal, but you picked the worst spot in Canada to immigrate to. Sorry.

Quebec? (5.00 / 1) (#85)
by max3000 on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 10:26:00 PM EST

>Also, does your wife know french? New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province in an officially bilingual country.

What about Quebec? I am not 100% sure about what our 'official' status is, but a lot of people here are more than able to function in English.

Of course, some areas are pretty much French-only speaking. Although English-only speaking tourists are very welcome in areas like Lac St-Jean and will likely be understood, I certainly wouldn't recommend them trying to make a living there.

However, the provincial government and affiliates always make official documents available in English. I'd say we are pretty much a bilingual province. Especially in Montreal, where you can speak English (and be understood) almost 100% of the time. If someone doesn't understand you, the next person probably will.

But I am digressing... What I meant to say was that your point is valid for Quebec as well. As a rule, bilinguals will be preferred over unilinguals when it comes to employment. English-only speaking residents can get frowned upon by francophones and employers may try to stay away from that. Being a francophone myself I tend to understand this frowning. It may look like prejudice (and perhaps it is). On the other hand, people who have lived here a long time (some all their lives) and don't speak a word of French show a kind of disrespect. Comme on dit: Rome, on fait comme les romains... (When in Rome, do as the Romans)

As a side note, I may point out that I have not seen many French- or English-only speaking Quebecers in my life. Most people have a preference for French or English, but they can usually converse in the other tongue, at least for a short while. Actually, I am so used to this bilingualism that every time I went to the other provinces or to the US I was a bit taken aback by the complete lack of French! ;)

[ Parent ]

officially speaking (5.00 / 1) (#86)
by rustball on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 10:44:31 PM EST

Officially, Quebec has only one official language: French. I too live in Montreal and everyone I know, be it "pure laine" or "visible minority" or "WASP" speaks at the very least both English and French, if not a third or a fourth language. But that's post Bill 101 Montreal, the same does not hold true for the grand majority of Quebec, but I'm sure you knew that.

[ Parent ]
Oh shit! (none / 0) (#137)
by Rock Joe on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 08:19:52 PM EST

I really should read the replies to a comment before I reply myself. :o)

Signatures are for losers!
--Rock Joe
[ Parent ]
Actually... (4.00 / 1) (#135)
by Rock Joe on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 08:18:29 PM EST

Quebec only has one official language. That language is French. I learned this in school a long time ago. And no, that was NOT a subtle insult of your intelligence, but just a heads up. New-Brunswick is the ONLY officialy bilingual province in Canada. This is fact.

However, the provincial government and affiliates always make official documents available in English. I'd say we are pretty much a bilingual province. Especially in Montreal, where you can speak English (and be understood) almost 100% of the time. If someone doesn't understand you, the next person probably will.

I don't travel around Quebec much, but from what I've heard, Montreal is BY VERY VERY FAR the most bilingual city in Quebec. Montreal is the only place with an English COMMUNITY, that's for sure. And from what I've heard, people from other cities in Quebec will be totally impressed when you speak any non-French language, including English. OK. Maybe the Hull/Ottawa region would be an exception. :o)

English-only speaking residents can get frowned upon by francophones and employers may try to stay away from that. Being a francophone myself I tend to understand this frowning. It may look like prejudice (and perhaps it is). On the other hand, people who have lived here a long time (some all their lives) and don't speak a word of French show a kind of disrespect. Comme on dit: Rome, on fait comme les romains... (When in Rome, do as the Romans)

I think Montreal is so different from the rest of the province that the unspoken rules should be different here. And besides, if you speak English, you're not gonna go live at Val d'Or or something. You're gonna come to Montreal. And that's why IMO, a francophone Montrealler who refuses to learn English is just as dumb as an anglophone Montrealler who refuses to learn French. However, the anglo would be "more wrong" than the franco, because french IS the official language, so if you're only to know one language, it should be french. But in Montreal, you really need both. If either one is missing, you're at a serious disadvantage, and that's what some francos don't seem to realize. That "Au Quebec, on parle Francais, sti!" crap doesn't fly here.

As a side note, I may point out that I have not seen many French- or English-only speaking Quebecers in my life. Most people have a preference for French or English, but they can usually converse in the other tongue, at least for a short while. Actually, I am so used to this bilingualism that every time I went to the other provinces or to the US I was a bit taken aback by the complete lack of French! ;)

You live in Montreal, right? Because even though I don't travel the province often, I've never met someone who can speak English outside of Montreal. Then again, I adress strangers in french by default (that IS the official language, after all...), so maybe that's it. But I often here "Ah! Moi, l'anglais, la..." when I say something in English outside of Montreal. And this includes the south shore.

Signatures are for losers!
--Rock Joe
[ Parent ]

Bilingualism in the Maritimes (none / 0) (#103)
by Wobbly Bob on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 05:49:51 AM EST

New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province in an officially bilingual country.

Actually, PEI is now officially bilingual, although you would be hard pressed to find an Islander that doesn't speak English.

[ Parent ]

And then there's the PEI fishing villages... (none / 0) (#182)
by Cruciform on Mon Feb 17, 2003 at 11:51:11 AM EST

It might be English, but sometimes you'd be hard pressed to understand it :)

If you live there you're probably familiar with the phrase "Dis, dat, dese, and doze"?
Hehehe, it's been a while since I've been back to the Island, but the accents of some of the people I grew up with have stuck with me for years.

As for the opportunities for foreigners here, while I was working in Toronto (imagine that, a maratimer working in Ontario! :P) on the Y2K panic it was interesting to see how many professionals from other countries were working these entry level consultant positions.

We had:
 the middle eastern architect, who lasted less than a week because she didn't know how to copy files to a floppy. (She worked at a draft board all her life. Didn't know anything about computers.)
 the Romanian engineer, who was great at his job but was extremely overqualified.
 the Chinese Microsoft expert, who had written technical books in China for a living. He knew anything you ever needed to know about anything made by Microsoft... but knew about 500 english words when he started the job, making him useless for unsupervised support.
 the Indian doctor, who also excelled at her job, but it wasn't taking care of sick people.
 the Russian consultant who actually was working in his field.

This is just a sampling of some of the people that worked in our group. All of them were well educated, and more than capable of performing in jobs requiring higher skill levels.

Language barriers and skill equity were the big obstacles for most of them though. Dumping a Chinese speaking consultant into an english environment probably wasn't the best course of action. He picked up English quickly, but if he had been a liason for some of the local Chinese businesses he wouldn't have been sitting around frustrated so much.

As for the people trained in other professions, it's amazing that someone with years of training as an engineer or doctor can't work in their field here, but since we don't recognize most of their schools, tough. With good retraining programs we could have a limitless supply of incoming talent to fill the gap created by the baby boomers.

People are making some good points here too. If you want a growth-industry job, the Maritimes really isn't the place to go. People need to do research before they pull up stakes and move to a new country, be it Canada, the US, etc. etc.

Wow, I'm ranting :) Not bad for my first post. I'll shut up now.

[ Parent ]

An alternate anecdote (4.80 / 5) (#55)
by gauntlet on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:32:11 PM EST

My wife immigrated to Canada from Poland 10 years ago. Her father had lived in the United States for a number of years, but moved to Canada finding it easier to bring his family here than to the US.

A university-trained architect in Poland, he took a job as a carpenter for a company that did renovations to people's homes. He, his wife, and his two kids lived with his cousin, his cousin's wife, and their daughter in a three-bedroom condo. A year later, he started a company. Today, he owns a new home construction company with a gross income of over $1,000,000 a year, and a number of times each year takes trips to south america in the winter to pursue his favorite passtime - scuba diving.

He maintains close ties to a number of Polish families that he met in a small but tight-knit Polish community in our city, and his cousin lives a ten minute drive from his home.

Two of my wife's cousins and both of her grandmothers have come to visit her parents. The grandmothers wanted to stay, but felt too out of place. One cousin had a university education in medicine waiting for her on her return to Poland. The other is here now, and still trying to find a way to stay.

My parents, too, were immigrants. My parents are Irish, and my father worked two blocks from the site of a bomb explosion in Dublin city, at a bus stop that many of his co-workers used. Two weeks after my parents married, they emmigrated to Canada. My father's brother was already here, and sponsored him for a job. Fourteen years later, my parents convinced my mother's sister and her husband to emmigrate with their four children. They moved to Toronto, and six months later, moved out west.

I'm still usually the only exclusively English-speaking person at parties that my in-laws throw. And my father and his brother are deeply involved in the Irish club here in town. All of my family and my in-laws have Canadian citizenship. They could not be more integrated, nor could they be more Canadian. Nor would they even consider the possibility that their immigration was a bad idea.

I would argue that it is not Canada that determines whether or not immigration is of benefit to the immigrant or the country. It is the immigrant who determines the benefit they will give, and the benefit they will reap.

Into Canadian Politics?

By and large... (none / 0) (#59)
by aziegler on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:48:42 PM EST

this is true.

However, there are problems with the way that immigrants are treated in Canada if they belong to licensed professions (e.g., Doctors, Architects, Engineers, etc.), and it's shameful. Unfortunately, the provinces -- the licensing bodies -- have not seen fit to fix this problem.

Indeed, it's very interesting that it was not until Mike Harris left government that stronger (but not strong enough) moves were made to properly licence medical professionals from out-country (not educated in the US or Canada; even British-educated doctors apparently have some trouble from time to time). The very Mike Harris that sits on the board of the Fraser Institute writing this report.

Gee. You think that there might be a connection?

-austin, who thinks that the federal government should take more of an active role here, but understands it may be against the Canadian constitution
[note: I'm an immigrant myself, but from the U.S.]

[ Parent ]

Ditto that... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
by m0nkyman on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 01:13:56 AM EST

"However, there are problems with the way that immigrants are treated in Canada if they belong to licensed professions (e.g., Doctors, Architects, Engineers, etc.), and it's shameful. Unfortunately, the provinces -- the licensing bodies -- have not seen fit to fix this problem."

This is a huge problem. I have a customer who immigrated to Canada from Iran. He left a very successful Dental practice to drive a cab for ten years, while he go recertified in Canada. It took him fifteen years to get his practice established here. We have a huge shortage of qualified nurses and doctors, yet we also have a large talent pool that were trained elsewhere that are working minimum wage jobs while their talents go to waste.

I think it's shameful. At the very least there should be a mechanism whereby they can challenge the provincial exams for their professions... In my world, the sooner they start paying higher taxes the better :)

If I can't dance, then I won't join your revolution-- Emma Goldman
[ Parent ]

I agree, sort of. (none / 0) (#69)
by Menard on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 02:04:36 PM EST

I think there's lots of potential here for immigrants to do well, and to enjoy all the benefits of Canadian society, but I don't think it's right to blame the immigrants themselves when this doesn't work out. Though I suppose there must be some lazy immigrants, as there are lazy people everywhere, I think that this would be a tiny minority of the immigrant population. Rather, I think that there are alot of comitted and intelligent people who fall through the cracks, despite being hard working, and I think we need to examine and fix the problems that lead to this. There is a major problem with certification of engineers, doctors, and the like, and there is racism, both within the populace and within government departments. I think the first is difficult to combat, being a fairly nebulous thing, but it bothers me greatly that more emphasis is not put on eradicating racism from the civil service, which is hugely important to making this system function well.

As a side note, Mike Harris is on the board of this institute? Yikes! I'm starting to distrust this report a little more.

[ Parent ]

"Senior Fellow" Michael Harris (none / 0) (#71)
by aziegler on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:00:18 PM EST

I have been incorrect in stating that he's on the board. He's not.

He's a "Senior Fellow".

Michael Harris, Senior Fellow
Michael Harris became the twenty-second Premier of Ontario following a landslide election victory in June 1995, and served the people of Ontario until 2002. His plan -- the Common Sense Revolution -- struck a chord with people across the province who were tired of big government, wasteful spending, rising welfare rolls, and rising unemployment. In his first term as Premier of Ontario, he proved that he was not afraid to make tough choices needed to put Ontario back on track. Four years later the voters of Ontario re-elected Mike Harris, making him the first Ontario Premier in more than 30 years to form a second consecutive majority government.

[ Parent ]

BTW... (none / 0) (#72)
by aziegler on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 03:00:45 PM EST

Preston Manning is a "Senior Fellow" as well.

-austin

[ Parent ]

give it time... (none / 0) (#62)
by Run4YourLives on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 12:56:38 PM EST

and maybe move to an actual city that's used to a large number of immigrants... (toronto, vancouver, etc.)

This was in the news yesterday. Like it or not, immigration is a fact of life for Canadians... even the backwards one in the Maritimes...

:-)

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown

Maritimes conservatism (2.50 / 2) (#84)
by Hatamoto on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 10:18:05 PM EST

I just moved here from Vancouver... and yes, the deep seated conservatism in this part of the country is a little hard to stomach, sometimes. Things like no sunday shopping in nova scotia (government mandated days of insane saturday shopping).

However, there's a lot of multiculturalism here in Halifax, and aside from what appears to be some kind of drug war going on between rival race-delimited factions there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of racism going on here. Of course I'm whitebread, so I may be blissfully ignorant of it all...

--
"Innocence is no defense." - Federal District Judge William H. Yohn (People v. Mumia Abu-Jamal)
[ Parent ]

You know... (none / 0) (#96)
by Menard on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 02:19:57 AM EST

We're not really that conservative. We're the only region to give a consistent vote to the federal NDP. And the provincial NDP in Nova Scotia are generally strong as well. They tied the second-last provincial elections. And while there are currently conservatives in both Nova Scotia and New Brunswick provincially, I would note that B.C. is currently being run by Gordon Campbell.

[ Parent ]
Liberals in conservative country (none / 0) (#134)
by Hatamoto on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 08:10:51 PM EST

Yes, ironically NDP does have a bastion in certain maritime regions (halifax being the biggest from the looks of it). I had the pleasure of meeting Alexa at one point and I personally think that the NDP has lost a great motivator when she stepped down, although hopefully for a newer, more vibrant and hopefully less middle-of-the-road wishy washy NDP.

It doesn't change the fact that there's still a fairly serious environment of conservatism here. Perhaps being relatively new to the area has made me hypersensitive to it. Things like the sunday shopping issue I'd mentioned, how labour unions are treated, attitudes towards drug use, poverty, terrorism, the US war-on-<insert crusade of the day>, etc... all things which feel, to me, substantially more right-leaning than the other coast.

Not that I believe all these things are necessarily bad, just definately more conservative.

--
"Innocence is no defense." - Federal District Judge William H. Yohn (People v. Mumia Abu-Jamal)
[ Parent ]

When I say "liberal", I mean... (none / 0) (#136)
by Hatamoto on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 08:19:20 PM EST

Liberal thinkers vs. conservative thinkers (ie: lefties vs. righties), and not Liberal party members vs. Conservative party members. It wasn't until I'd already stabbed the post button that I noticed the topic might be a bit misleading.

--
"Innocence is no defense." - Federal District Judge William H. Yohn (People v. Mumia Abu-Jamal)
[ Parent ]
Conservatism in the east (none / 0) (#189)
by kalculy on Mon Feb 17, 2003 at 11:55:53 PM EST

I think you should have a second look at the Maritimes and Newfoundland before you make such judgements. My experience as a Newfie who has lived in provinces from East to West is that Conservatism increases the further West you go. Conservatism, and its second cousin big business, is much more prevalent in Ontario and Alberta than I've ever seen in Newfoundland (one exception is Quebec where people can be very very liberal minded). Perhaps BC is a different (Prince George wasn't though, talk about a lot of rednecks!) but have a look at the rest of Canada before you generalize. Furthermore, I don't think you can equate business convenience with liberal thinking.
cogito, ergo sum
[ Parent ]
My view on Sunday shopping... (none / 0) (#143)
by Menard on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 01:13:35 AM EST

Can be found here. I accidentally posted it under the wrong thread.

In reference to the rest of it, I haven't encountered those attitudes personally, but that doesn't mean much. While I suppose that I doubt that the maritimes are further left than Vancouver, I would maintain that it's a more leftist region than Ontario and the west, and, from what I've read and seen on the news, I'd include alot of rural B.C. in that. Oh, Saskatchewan probably excepted, too, come to think of it. Quebec would be difficult to comment on in this regard. It was more socialist than the easter provinces in the past, IMHO, but it's political landscape seems to be in flux nowadays.

[ Parent ]
Re: sunday shopping (5.00 / 1) (#159)
by Hatamoto on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 01:49:22 PM EST

I surfed over and read it. heh... whoops. I hate it when I do stuff like that. ;)

I can understand the ideals of protecting minimum wagers from exploitive employers. I've done enough graveyard shifts at gas stations and so forth during my teens to know how much that can suck. However, a large portion of minimum wage jobs are already in 7-day cycles (gas stations, corner stores, restaurants). The only places that aren't are places where you'd actually go to do actual SHOPPING. It floored me when I moved here and I found out I couldn't buy groceries on a sunday... an adjustment all the more dramatic for us because our traditional grocing (pronounced 'grow-shing' ;) day in vancouver had always been sunday.

Existing labour laws also protect people from mandatory overtime. Of course, from a practical standpoint, someone blowing the whistle on it would likely cost them a job... but that's an issue of implementation and enforcement of those laws. I've never personally been a big fan on the idea of denying a service based on the potential for abuse. You will never, for example, see me support the tax on CD-R/DVD-R media because some people might *gasp* pirate music with them.

Add into the mix that other provinces have already enacted sunday shopping and no reports of widespread exploitation have surfaced. I'm sure exploitation happens, to some extent, but it doesn't appear to be a major thing.

Looking at it from a local perspective, Halifax really REALLY needs sunday shopping more than, say, Truro would. Halifax is a major tourist destination, with busloads and shiploads of people (and yes, even the carloads with obligatory skis attached to the roof), coming up by the thousands to enjoy the natural beauty of our city and our province. On sundays, though, the options for shopping are *severely* curtailed, which generates a lot of complaints. Just ask anyone who's worked in tourism down at the harbour... we're missing out on a lot of revenue that would otherwise be going into the public coffers.

I remember when sunday shopping was being bantered about in Edmonton back in the 80s. Many of the same issues were raised, and fortunately a lot of them turned out to be red herrings. I honestly believe that, while it would be an adjustment, sunday shopping offers a lot more potential advantages (in convenience, revenue generation and job creation) than potential disadvantages (worker exploitation and additional burden on small businesses). I also believe that the reasons for NOT yet allowing sunday shopping are spurious and personal to the current administration, and that the people of nova scotia should be given the chance to express their opinions on the issue directly.

--
"Innocence is no defense." - Federal District Judge William H. Yohn (People v. Mumia Abu-Jamal)
[ Parent ]

I see a vastly different experience (4.00 / 1) (#76)
by johnnyfever on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 05:48:00 PM EST

I am an immigrant in Canada as well, although I arrived here in 1972, so according to the stats in the report you cite, I had a much better chance than a recent immigrant. Both my mother and father found work almost immediately (actually my father had a job lined up before we moved), and both have done extremely well in their careers in Canada.

As far as more recent immigrants are concerned, I work with quite a few of them. One whom I count among my friends is also from Poland and holds a management position overseeing several Unix sysadmins and his wife works at a local hospital as a nurse. A Romanian friend whom I went to school with has kept pace with me and all of our other classmates career-wise. I also work with, or have worked with recently a native of India, educated in the UK, a Sri Lankan, a Hungarian and a Pakistani.

Maybe you should move to Calgary...everyone else is.

Never would have noticed where I worked (5.00 / 4) (#80)
by The Solitaire on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 07:24:53 PM EST

This couldn't disagree with my experience more... I worked at a high-tech company, where my co-workers consisted of two Slovaks, an Australian, a Brit, two Chinese, and an Italian (plus a few Canadians, of which I am one). Several of them held advanced degrees. None of them were ever discriminated against to my knowledge.

I also worked at a hospital some time ago, and there was no shortage of East Indian and Chinese doctors (or nurses, or administrators, etc) there, or from other backgrounds for that matter. I'm inclined to think that some of the other posters are right - the maritimes can be a shitty place to live (not that I've ever lived there to back this up).

I need a new sig.

Maritimers (5.00 / 1) (#188)
by kalculy on Mon Feb 17, 2003 at 11:41:24 PM EST

If you've never lived there then perhaps you're not really qualified to judge? There are already too many misconceptions about the region (especially the Rock, my childhood home)! Also, the warmth of the people and the community feeling that exists in these places more than makes up for deficits in the weather and the isolation. If only I could find a job there, I'd go back in an instant!
cogito, ergo sum
[ Parent ]
On immigration (4.90 / 10) (#87)
by rustball on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 10:54:50 PM EST

Canada is a country that was built by immigration, save for the small number of First Nations people that remain. Without immigrants we would not have a country; without immigrants we will not have a country.

Canada has a very low birth rate, not reaching the 2.1 child per woman replacement rate. If it wasn't for immigrants we could not sustain our way of life, our country. Less children makes for a smaller workforce. A smaller workforce means less taxes to pay for our social welfare policies, especially retirement pensions. The greyer our workforce gets, the more costly it gets to keep them alive and well. Shutting the door to immigration would put heavy strains on our economy. WE NEED IMMIGRANTS.

Immigration produces low Canadian Birth Rates (2.66 / 3) (#90)
by nomoreh1b on Wed Feb 12, 2003 at 11:39:21 PM EST

Basically, immigration tends to dramtically lower the real waged of young people trying to have families and get a start in life-and increases the value of capital assets held by lower people. The net result is that immigration plays a major role in lowering birth rates--think of it as the older generation eating their own grand-kids.

[ Parent ]
That's stupid. (4.20 / 5) (#95)
by Menard on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 02:09:42 AM EST

Lower birth rates are common among highly developed countries for many well-establised reasons : widespread access to prophylactics, both physical and chemical, the increased education of women, as well as the increased career and social oportunities of women, combining to give women both an understanding of their options to avoid pregnancy and an incentive to USE those options in order to do things other than have children, and people no longer needing many children to provide economic support and manual labour to the family. There are other reasons posited, but I think those three are absolutely the least controversial. It is well accepted that increased social and economic standing REDUCES family size. This is why birth rates are falling across the developed world. Arguably, if immigrants really were stealing our jobs and pushing young fresh-faced North Americans into lower wages and dead-end jobs, we would see the birth rate rise rather than fall.

[ Parent ]
Actually, also... (1.00 / 1) (#97)
by Menard on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 02:30:59 AM EST

Re: Sunday shopping, I'm a hardcore leftist, and I also support this. Here's why : For alot of people stuck in shitty minimum-wage retail positions, no Sunday shopping, this is equal to a government-mandated weekend. In alot of cases, and I knew a few years ago someone who worked at Coles and was in this situation, employers at these stores will require that the person works shifts every day the store is open. I can't say for sure, but my assumption is that few employees working many shifts means less tax forms and what not for the employer as compared to many employees working a few shifts each. If they're not willing to work the full six days, they get layed off and the store finds someone else. You can argue that they need the money, and they do, but I don't think it's fair to make anyone work seven days a week. Under the current scheme, people in this situation DO get a weekend, because the store legally has to close one day a week. Now, I of course agree that tying it to one specific day of the week is a bothersome religous throwback. I would instead propose that the store be able to choose which day of the week. This gives the store alot more flexibility, especially to be open on what is for most people the weekend so as to get that increased weekend business. At the same time, the employee still gets the mandated day off. This is all IMHO, I guess, but I think it's a workable compromise.

[ Parent ]
Oh, for christ's sake. (2.33 / 3) (#98)
by Menard on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 02:38:19 AM EST

This was supposed to be attached to one of my other comments. Please disregard it.

[ Parent ]
You need to read the Literature (4.00 / 2) (#172)
by nomoreh1b on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 02:56:15 AM EST

I'd suggest starting with the stuff from Gary Becker of the University of Chicago. Basically, women tend to have lots of kids during periods of economic expansion _and_ periods when the economic status of males is high relative to females. There are a variety of factors, but this idea of "people get rich and quite having kids" is pretty lame. People's reproductive behavior _is_ profoundly influenced by how expensive it is for them to have kids. For all of the talk of "growth", the "developed countries" have stagnated in recent years and made it very difficult for their young to have families without risking serious poverty.

[ Parent ]
You DON'T need more immigration (1.00 / 3) (#123)
by Quietti on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 04:46:10 PM EST

People always complain that "genuinely" Canadians (usually meaning white people of British or French descent) don't make enough kids. Importing more foreigners might increase the number of taxpayers, but is also a guaranteed way to further dilute the percentage of "genuinely Canadian" blood present in the population. Idiots.

--
The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky
[ Parent ]
You say that as if it's a BAD thing... (5.00 / 1) (#126)
by Rock Joe on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 05:13:44 PM EST

People always complain that "genuinely" Canadians (usually meaning white people of British or French descent) don't make enough kids. Importing more foreigners might increase the number of taxpayers, but is also a guaranteed way to further dilute the percentage of "genuinely Canadian" blood present in the population. Idiots.

If you don't want the percentage of "genuinely canadian" blood to decrease, all you have to do is make babies. The solution isn't to close our borders to the outside world. And what about children who were born here from parents who immigrated? People like me. Are you saying I'm less Canadian than someone of French or British decent? Hogwash. And besides, there's no such thing as genuinely Canadian blood. We're ALL immigrants except for the native-americans.

Signatures are for losers!
--Rock Joe
[ Parent ]

We're all imigrants. (none / 0) (#153)
by tekue on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 09:47:19 AM EST

We're ALL immigrants except for the native-americans.
This is of course just a theory, but I've heard that all homo sapiens are supposed to come from Africa. So in Canada, you're ALL immigrants, period.
--
A society that puts equality ahead of freedom will end up with neither. -Milton Friedman
[ Parent ]
I know! (2.50 / 2) (#127)
by Menard on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 05:30:01 PM EST

We'll keep the immigrants so we can tax 'em, but we'll create a new constitution so that only pure Canadians have equal rights under the law! It'll solve both problems at the same time!

Ok, so I'm overreacting a little bit here, but really, you're being just a little bit offensive. For me, once you've gained Canadian citizenship, you're just as Canadian as anyone else with that citizeship. I don't think moving to a new country should ever mean revoking your cultural heritage and your ancestry. The ideal situation, in my mind, is for immigrants to adopt a bit of Canadian culture, and for Canada to adopt a little bit of their culture. Everybody wins! That's integration that works, forcing everybody to act the same isn't.

[ Parent ]

Melting pot spells disaster (3.50 / 2) (#146)
by Quietti on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 05:40:44 AM EST

The ideal situation, in my mind, is for immigrants to adopt a bit of Canadian culture, and for Canada to adopt a little bit of their culture.
Do that and you end up with USSR, where everyone speaks only Russian and nobody remembers much of their own Karelian, Kom, Mordavian, Tatar, etc. heritage, except for how to make their traditional costumes - if even that has remained much at all.

--
The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky
[ Parent ]
Disaster? (1.00 / 1) (#158)
by Kintanon on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 01:28:25 PM EST

Culture is humanity.
It's not a huge tragedy when someone gives up their old culture to embrace a new one, or embraces a new culture while injecting a little of their own. It's not going to hurt any of us to be slightly less rabidly xenophobic and just absorb the cultures around us. Be human.

Kintanon

[ Parent ]

Immigration is not to blame (3.75 / 4) (#108)
by Nucleus on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 10:30:15 AM EST

I wouldn't blame our problems on immigration. My family has been here for 5-6 generations but in the beginning we were immigrants too. The fact is the country has been shifting to the right ever since Mulroney signed NAFTA. As a result of this political shift, policies where changed, most noticably social policies, partly in demand to balance the budget to become more fiscally sound and partly because the right hates big government. This has affected our quality of life and most likely will continue to do so. Eventually we will end up with US style slums. But who knows.. the NDP has recently gained popularity .

Socialism for needs, capitalism for wants

oh (none / 0) (#109)
by Party Chick on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 10:46:14 AM EST

are you anywhere near London? maybe my girlfriend could convince you to stay lol

---===| partychick |===---

I do not see it (5.00 / 7) (#110)
by krek on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 11:06:32 AM EST

I work at a large engineering company in Montreal, and I can honestly say that I do not get the same impression. There is obviously a mojority of white french and english speaking people working here, but the next largest group of people are, in fact, Polish. There are lots of other regions represented here as well, Russian, Brittish, Czech, Romanian... there are even a couple of Afganis (no last names even). On top of this, the competence level of these people range from sub-moron to hyper-genius, so I find it surprising that your wife is having such a hard time with a polish family name, I would think that being female would be the larger obstacle.

Where are you guys? Deep in the sticks of Alberta or New Brunswick? Stay in the major cities and I can't see how you would have such a hard time of it. The only valid reason that I can see to refuse to hire someone with a polish name would be in the situation where the job is one where the public is involved and language is an issue.

And, more to the point, I do not see how reducing immingration will solve anything, it would be more likely to exacerbate the problem I would think. And the irony of an immigrant calling for reduced immigration is amusing, since it is only because of the open immigration process that you even have a say in the matter.

Speaking of immigrants complaining about immigration; there are a couple of the Russians at my workplace who are very down on most other Russian immigrants. They complain about the ones who show up in Canada and refuse to even try to learn either official language, don't bother applying for the standard identification like health card, social insurance number or drivers liscense. As my Russian associates say, "they come to Canada and continue to behave and live as they did in Russia".

My take on all of this is that there are just a lot of people out there who emmigrate as a quick fix. They figure that just by leaving there messed up country and moving to a more stable one that all of their problems are solved, as if when you show up at immigration Canada, they hand you a sweet job, a house, a car and fifty grand in cash to get them started. They get here, get none of that, and become disillusioned and fall back into their old patterns.

I am not saying that you, or your wife, is one of these people, and I am not saying that you did not suffer the discrimination that you describe, I am only saying that your experiences do not describe those of all immigrants to Canada.

Besides, what is a Canadian sounding name? Anawati? Gzowski? Halavrezos? Koller? Walsh? Mercer? Hanomansing? Suzuki? All CBC broadcasting personalties. How about Gretsky? Bossy? Esposito? Hawerchuk? Lemieux? Potvin? Vezina? Nieuwendyk? All Canadian NHL hockey players. What do you mean by a 'Canadian sounding' name.

Government Jobs (none / 0) (#112)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 12:32:52 PM EST

The only valid reason that I can see to refuse to hire someone with a polish name would be in the situation where the job is one where the public is involved and language is an issue...

Oh yeah, like all those legions of well-spoken, articulate crackers that work in the civil service?


"I'm warning you, Mister. I've had about as much of your homelessness as I'm willing to take." -Lt. Twelve-Douze, Parent ]
Who said anything about government jobs? (5.00 / 1) (#116)
by krek on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 02:20:22 PM EST

K5'ers sure do enjoy cramming words into other people's mouths.

I was refering more to stuff like radio announcers, editors, translators, salespeople, and yes, even some government jobs. There are positions that simply require excellent language skills.

[ Parent ]
Re: Who said anything about government jobs? (5.00 / 1) (#149)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 07:21:21 AM EST

Uh, I did. Why are you so confused?

K5'ers sure do enjoy cramming words into other people's mouths.

...What? Because I can come-up with an example of a kind of job that mixes public relations with immigrant workers? You need to grow a thicker hide, bub.


"I'm warning you, Mister. I've had about as much of your homelessness as I'm willing to take." -Lt. Twelve-Douze, Parent ]
-1, too Canada-centric (3.50 / 8) (#111)
by Quila on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 11:10:12 AM EST

(sorry, couldn't resist)

I would support a total ban on immigration (2.50 / 8) (#114)
by Jonathan Walther on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 12:52:10 PM EST

I would support a ban on immigration for the next 20 years, with a review process at the end of that time which could choose to prolong the ban for another 20 years if benefits were seen.

Yes, immigrants are "essential to the workforce".  But you know what?  As someone who has grown up here, and witnessed all my life the perpetually shitty economy despite massive immigration; as someone who is saddened by the suicidally low birthrate and the denigration of a culture that accomplished great things, I believe we should stop immigration.

I believe stopping immigration may very well harm "the economy" as it is measured by the big fancy capitalist WTO funded institutes and think tanks.  I'll trade all of that for a country where the birthrate goes back up to replacement, and Canadas traditional culture and values become a common heritage once again.  I will trade all of that for a country where young couples are able to buy their own houses and raise their children in communities of people with a common heritage that allows them to trust and get along with each other.  I will trade all of that for neighborhoods where everyone speaks a common language, and has a common understanding of how things ought to be, and a common vision of where the nation is headed.

The last thing I want to see is more immigrants from countries who come here, go on welfare, and then go to demonstrations shouting "down with the west!  destroy whitey!"  People that have such oppressive attitudes should stay in their own oppressive countries, instead of turning a once beautiful nation into a gulag of political correctness and collective "white guilt".

Canada had potential, but the capitalists have been screwing it up.  It's time to circle the wagons, take stock, and build a strong nation that is true to itself.  It is time to exorcise the leftist, liberal spirit of schizophrenia that has dominated this beautiful land.

Stop all immigration; if someone claims to be a refugee, let them join the Canadian Foreign Legion, with the same terms and conditions as apply to the French Foreign Legion.  When a foreigner is granted Canadian citizenship, I want that reassurance that they are willing to give their life to defend the things that make this country great, not try to attack, tear down, and destroy the culture here so they can install their own.

(Luke '22:36 '19:13) => ("Sell your coat and buy a gun." . "Occupy until I come.")


Here... I think this swastika belongs to you... (4.00 / 4) (#119)
by Rock Joe on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 03:08:20 PM EST

I believe stopping immigration may very well harm "the economy" as it is measured by the big fancy capitalist WTO funded institutes and think tanks.

Yeah. I mean what do THEY know about money? Pfah.

I'll trade all of that for a country where the birthrate goes back up to replacement, and Canadas traditional culture and values become a common heritage once again.

You REALLY think that stopping immigration will make the birthrate go back up? Get real. The only thing I can see that would make the birthrate go back up is if Bush's "Bomb Saddam" campaign leads to a Canadian Draft.

I will trade all of that for a country where young couples are able to buy their own houses and raise their children in communities of people with a common heritage that allows them to trust and get along with each other. I will trade all of that for neighborhoods where everyone speaks a common language, and has a common understanding of how things ought to be, and a common vision of where the nation is headed.

Now THIS is the part that made me label you as a racist, and you're gonna have to work REAL hard to convince me otherwise. Not that you care what some guy on the internet thinks of you anyway. You're saying that you wouldn't trust your neighbors if they were minorities? Would you allow your kids to play with their kids? If not, it's because of people like you that I wanna meet all of my kids' friends' parents... as soon as I HAVE kids, that is... What if they're WHITE minorities? Like Polish people and Greeks and Russians? Don't you realize that a nation where people all share a "common vision" is a nation where nobody asks questions because they all agree? And immigration is a great way to fight racism. Racist parents raise racist children, but the difference is that the racist children will probably interract with alot more minorities than the racist parents did. This is why I LOVE living in Montreal. You'll almost never see 5 consecutive people of the same race (unless they're white, of course. :o) And even then, some of them may be immigrants). My 3 older brothers were the only black kids in their high school. Things have changed alot since then and I'm ultra-confident that my nieces and newphews will be allowed to blossom in a discrimination-free environment, no thanx to you. There are SOME things that suck in Montreal, but that has more to do with language than race, and my entire family speaks perfect french.

The last thing I want to see is more immigrants from countries who come here, go on welfare, and then go to demonstrations shouting "down with the west! destroy whitey!" People that have such oppressive attitudes should stay in their own oppressive countries, instead of turning a once beautiful nation into a gulag of political correctness and collective "white guilt". Are you a Klan-Master, or a Neo-Nazi? I'm not sure what textbook you got that from...

When a foreigner is granted Canadian citizenship, I want that reassurance that they are willing to give their life to defend the things that make this country great, not try to attack, tear down, and destroy the culture here so they can install their own.

Where do you live and how many foreigners do you actually know? It's been said here earlier, but I'll say it again: Ghetto-ization is a symptom, not a cause. And how does a bunch of arabs living in the same part of town, probably far away from yours, affect your culture? If you forget how to speak english because you live in a greek neighborhood, you're stupid.

Signatures are for losers!
--Rock Joe
[ Parent ]

Paragraph break missing if you didn't see it [n/t] (none / 0) (#120)
by Rock Joe on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 03:10:57 PM EST



Signatures are for losers!
--Rock Joe
[ Parent ]
racist? (3.00 / 2) (#129)
by Gina Mission on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 05:53:12 PM EST

Now THIS is the part that made me label you as a racist, and you're gonna have to work REAL hard to convince me otherwise.

Racist? Come onnnnnnnnn. Look here young man, if that person is A racist, why would he marry a Filipina, who came here as a visitor, instead of young, blonde ladies who love living in Montreal?

You'll do yourself a big favor if you check your facts first before opening your mouth.

It's because of people like YOU that I am forced to warn my kids against making friends indiscriminately. And unlike you, I am fairly confident that my kids will shine even in a racist environment, or worse, in an environment full of constipated people like you. Take that from a disabled mother, thank you...

Ghetto-ization is a symptom, not a cause.

A symptom of over-immigration perhaps?

Are you a Klan-Master, or a Neo-Nazi? I'm not sure what textbook you got that from...

Don't judge the poor fellow by yourself, your majesty. If you can't get real-life experience but have to settle with what you get from text books, then accept my fake sympathy.

I believe stopping immigration may very well harm "the economy" as it is measured by the big fancy capitalist WTO funded institutes and think tanks.

Yeah. I mean what do THEY know about money? Pfah.

Or, to be more precise, what do I know about money?

You REALLY think that stopping immigration will make the birthrate go back up?

Of course, immigration, unfortunately, will not increase birth rate. But, it will shoot up once people LIKE YOU get married and start making children.

[ Parent ]

Oh please... (3.00 / 2) (#132)
by Rock Joe on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 06:54:06 PM EST

Racist? Come onnnnnnnnn. Look here young man, if that person is A racist, why would he marry a Filipina, who came here as a visitor, instead of young, blonde ladies who love living in Montreal?

First of all, who ARE you? HE'S the one who's gonna have to convince me he's not a racist, not you. And that's assuming he even cares that I labeled him based on afew sentences he posted on a website. I know I for one couldn't care less what a bunch of people I've never met think of me personally. Maybe he's the same. Who knows? So even though I can't see why you'd make up stuff about him if you didn't know him, any information about him that doesn't come from him will be disregarded.

You'll do yourself a big favor if you check your facts first before opening your mouth.

Oh please... I calls it like I sees it, and that ain't gonna change for no one. I made an ill-informed decision and I clearly stated that it was ill-informed by quoting the tiny bit of text I'm basing my decision on, and saying that that's what did it. Where's the harm in that? I'm not gonna check up on some guy who posts stuff about how immigration leads to mistrust among people of different heritage, so don't gimme that "check your facts" crap.

It's because of people like YOU that I am forced to warn my kids against making friends indiscriminately. And unlike you, I am fairly confident that my kids will shine even in a racist environment, or worse, in an environment full of constipated people like you. Take that from a disabled mother, thank you...

I'm sorry. I must've said that my nieces and nephews would crumble and fail in a world full of hate by accident. Oh wait! No I didn't! And what's a person like me? Can you please tell me what kind of person I am, because I'd REALLY like to know.

Don't judge the poor fellow by yourself, your majesty.

It's about TIME someone started showing me the respect I deserve! :o) And I had no choice but to judge him by myself because the royal committe was on lunch break. A King's work is never done, you know?

If you can't get real-life experience but have to settle with what you get from text books, then accept my fake sympathy.

I have NO IDEA what you're talking about here, but hey. Fake sympathy is better than NO sympathy.

But, it will shoot up once people LIKE YOU get married and start making children.

Oh don't look at ME! I fully plan on having kids, but there are afew things I have to get done first. If you had MY genes, you'd wanna pass them on too. :o) And I'm not gonna go into the things I plan on doing to raise my kids because first of all, it's none of your business, and second of all, things don't always go as planned.

Signatures are for losers!
--Rock Joe
[ Parent ]

ahh.... (3.00 / 2) (#141)
by Gina Mission on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 10:33:42 PM EST

First of all, who ARE you? HE'S the one who's gonna have to convince me he's not a racist, not you.

I, as 'Rumpole of the Bailey' describes my kind, am "she who must be obeyed," if you get the drift. Not that it's your business anyway, but if you are worth half your salt, that should be proof enough (not CONVINCE you for in the larger scheme of things, who are you really?) that he is not what you think he is.

Oh please... I calls it like I sees it

The attitude is mutual, rock joe dearie...I sees you as a constipated joe, and I calls you as a constipated joe, period.

I'm sorry. I must've said that my nieces and nephews would crumble and fail in a world full of hate by accident. Oh wait! No I didn't! And what's a person like me? Can you please tell me what kind of person I am, because I'd REALLY like to know.

If you can afford my fees. Ah, everything is not free for rock joe.

It's about TIME someone started showing me the respect I deserve! :o)

Unfortunately, respect is earned, not... complained about on kuro5hin.

I have NO IDEA what you're talking about here.

I am not surprised....

If you had MY genes, you'd wanna pass them on too. :o)

I heard that a long time ago from, guess who? The man you yourself called racist! You can at least be original.

[ Parent ]

Least Coherent Troll, Ever. <NT> (3.66 / 3) (#184)
by Innocent Bystander on Mon Feb 17, 2003 at 08:41:31 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Orthogonal (3.33 / 3) (#175)
by pnadeau on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 11:15:35 AM EST

Racist? Come onnnnnnnnn. Look here young man, if that person is A racist, why would he marry a Filipina, who came here as a visitor, instead of young, blonde ladies who love living in Montreal?

What does this have to do with not being a racist? Even racists can't avoid making friends with a few people of other races.

When you point it out to them, as in 'But what about Sujan from accounting, you like him.', they'll respond 'Oh, but Sujan is different'.

You can respond and say that we don't know him and why don't we check our facts: we are getting to know him by what he is telling us and the facts on this anonymized site are those facts he chooses to reveal.


"Can't buy what I want because it's free, can't be what they want because I'm..."  Eddie Vedder


[ Parent ]
For what real reason? (4.20 / 5) (#154)
by melia on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 11:13:25 AM EST

and raise their children in communities of people with a common heritage that allows them to trust and get along with each other.

A common heritage is not what allows people to trust or get along with each other. This is an absurd thing to say. Nice, tolerant people get along with each other, not those who can trace their bloodlines back to the first off the ship.

I will trade all of that for neighborhoods where everyone speaks a common language, and has a common understanding of how things ought to be, and a common vision of where the nation is headed.

You sound like the Daily Mail here in the UK. We have plenty of immigrants, most of whom speak English. They've come here to be a part of a country. You're tarring all immigrants with the same brush, and making such generalisations is plain wrong. Your "common vision" appears to be an insulated nation who refuses to accept other cultures into its society. Nice vision matey, you can keep it.

The last thing I want to see is more immigrants from countries who come here, go on welfare, and then go to demonstrations shouting "down with the west! destroy whitey!"...

Well, I can't comment on this because to be honest, I don't know much about your country. We do get a lot of this in the UK though. Despite this, even The Sun recognises that Abul Hamza (or "hook" as he's known) is not representative of the immigrant population, so once again I suggest (Although not with any evidence) that you're generalising.

Canada had potential, but the capitalists have been screwing it up.

Oh I see, it's the capitalists who've brought in all these immigrants, who've taken your jobs, your land and your women. I'm not suggesting this is what you have against immigrants, but there does seem to be very little factual justification for your views.

not try to attack, tear down, and destroy the culture here so they can install their own.

So what exactly is it that makes you think they're "installing their own culture?" It seems to me you're afraid of change, in which case, you'll be scared the whole of your life. Culture isn't a static thing, it's dynamic. It changes of the time. If you're worried about your culture I'd be closing off my borders to American TV.
Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
[ Parent ]

Why? (none / 0) (#173)
by melia on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 06:43:25 AM EST

I have a feeling it's against K5 etiquette, but I'd like to know exactly why Johnathon Walther gave me a 1 for that comment. Obviously someone who prefers not to defend their views.
Disclaimer: All of the above is probably wrong
[ Parent ]
Your argument fell apart (5.00 / 1) (#164)
by mindstrm on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 07:39:16 PM EST

as soon as you started talking about "Traditional Values". Stopping immigration in order to stabilize things MAY have merit, but it's not because it's about "foreigners" or "non-canadians". It's merely about stabilizing what is alreayd here. Maybe.

Immigrants shouting down with the west? What country are you talking about? I know a hell of a lot of immigrants in Canada, and none of them are shouting "down with the west". They are happy, and PROUD to be in Canada.

Why should immigrants be forced to go into the foreign legion? Our own sons and daughters aren't.. how can we hold others to a higher standard? Most "down with capitalism" "down with the west" talk I hear is from white, urban yuppie punks who have NO IDEA what a hard day's work is.

Yes, I would love to see canada as a stronger nation, true to itself.. but that's a multicultural, diverse Canada... not the one you seem to be calling for. It's not about traditional values, but the value "We can all get along, and are stronger for it"

Give their life to make this country great? Since when are we at war?

Common heritage? My heritage is this: I grew up in a neighborhood with kids from all races and colors, quite a number not even citizens yet.

Go on welfare? I've seen far more white urban potheads on welfare than any immigrants.  You know, the ones who sit around like lazy fat fucks bitching about how some "immigrant" took their job.

I've seen many, many immigrants take advantage of the facilities this country offers... welfare being necessary at times.. and 15 years later, they all own their own houses, cars, live debt free, and have good jobs. Their kids are in university, and they are GOOD people.

[ Parent ]

Yeah, higher birthrates, right (nt) (none / 0) (#183)
by scruffyMark on Mon Feb 17, 2003 at 02:46:05 PM EST



[ Parent ]
And on PEI... (none / 0) (#121)
by jdtux on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 03:11:06 PM EST

we have 27 MLA's... 26 of which are all PC, and the other one's a Liberal. But our four MP's are all Liberal...

But yeah.. we're pretty conservative... no sunday shopping, no abortion clinics on PEI afaik.

Congrats, Bob. Let me know when you're back (2.00 / 1) (#124)
by Quietti on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 04:58:50 PM EST

I beleive I had warned you and everyone else how Canada is turning into a structural hellhole, not just for locals but also for immigrants. That's why I left it nearly 5 years ago and don't intend on ever going back; I also intend on dumping Canadian citizenship ASAP, but that's besides the point.

Not that Finland is that much more tolerant but, at least, here job offers never stop pouring in for me; too bad I am forced to turn most of them down, because nobody hires people without EU citizenship anymore and I don't have that yet.

This being said, I am starting to find the situation utterly unbearable: no job opportunity whatsoever for me in Canada, but no permit needed to work there, or, plenty of work in Finland, but plenty of stupid laws that progressively make it impossible for a non-EU citizen to as much as survive anymore.

Anyhow, let me know when you're back. I enjoyed our previous e-mail exchanges about East Europe last summer and would gladly drop by Poland and meet you during the upcoming vacations.

--
The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky

Hi. Welcome back (none / 0) (#125)
by Jonathan Walther on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 05:03:42 PM EST

Hope things turn out for you in Finland; I got my child back, and have had a second child since then.  The economy here is still in the shitter as far as programming work, etc.  There are a lot of unemployed civil servants here too, and they are pissed off and organizing to overthrow the elected government, thinking that will get them their jobs back.

(Luke '22:36 '19:13) => ("Sell your coat and buy a gun." . "Occupy until I come.")


[ Parent ]
Good to hear Miwa will have company :) N/T (none / 0) (#147)
by Quietti on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 05:42:43 AM EST



--
The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky
[ Parent ]
Another immigrant's perspective (4.87 / 8) (#139)
by RelliK on Thu Feb 13, 2003 at 09:56:27 PM EST

I feel your pain, man, for I am too a first-generation immigrant (from Ukraine, btw). However, I don't think the problem is with discrimination.

In the article, you did not state what kind of job you are looking for. Only in a comment you posted do we find that you are a techie. You should have started with that. Looking for a programming job? So do the other million people who were fired when the .com bubble burst. It seems that you arrived just in time to witness the spectacular collapse. I am also quite ehh... "lucky" with timing: I have just finished university. My CS degree is now worth about as much as last year's .com stock. Welcome to the club. Due to the state of the economy, it's not a question of who you are but who you know. And for a recent immigrant, the answer is no one.

That is not to say that discrimination doesn't exist, but generally I have not noticed it to be anywhere near the level you suggest. I saw a very diverse workforce everywhere I worked. There were Polish people too at the last two places I worked for as a co-op -- they were lucky enough to have graduated a couple years earlier than me. I actually had two offers lined up to return to my previous co-op employers after graduation, but -- how shall I put it mildly -- they are not hiring right now, so I'm back to square one...

Further, our neighbour to the south complicates the situation even more. Let's face it, US is the world leader in the high-tech sector, so, IMHO, until it recovers, the high-tech industry everywhere will continue to stagnate. And what's happening with the US? We have that monkey in the White House to thank for the continued recession. Ever since the idiot was appointed to the throne, he has done nothing to help the economy -- on the contrary, the constant warmongering and unpunished corporate fraud have only made things worse.

On your decision to return to Poland, here is what I suggest: wait to see how the war unfolds. If it is a quick victory, then the economic recovery will likely follow. But in the case of a prolonged war, the economy will slip even further into the recession. Oh, and mark my word -- despite what our duplicitous PM says, Canada will be dragged into this mess. But that's a whole other rant...
---
Under capitalism man exploits man, under communism it's just the opposite.

I do have a job... (2.00 / 1) (#170)
by MSBob on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 12:27:31 AM EST

I do have a job in my field in Canada. It's my wife who's unemployed. And her field is... wait for it... Accounting. Yep, you heard it right! Nowhere else in the world is finding a job a problem for accountants. Nowhere except for Canada. Besides her not having a job we seem to get second rate treatment with everything we ask for. I asked a guy to plow my driveway - he said OK and never showed up. I got an electrician to give me an estimate for my panel upgrade and he never called. I tried to order some wood for my fireplace and it never arrived. The list goes on. To top it all off the temperatures here are getting to the leves only experienced in the South Pole :)
I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
Monkey in White House responsible for recession? (1.00 / 1) (#178)
by gnuphie on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 08:12:55 PM EST

If you will remember recent history, the recession started before the "Monkey" got in. The way to prolong it is for the real baboons in the congress to keep sucking the life out of the economy by taxation. Both parties are at fault, the left much worse than the right.
gnuphie
[ Parent ]
Too cold to reproduce in canada (1.00 / 2) (#142)
by Count Zero Interrupt on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 01:05:04 AM EST

How many americans were conceived by accident on a warm night in the back seat of a convertible?
--> Just trying to be helpful, in my own way.
Actually (none / 0) (#162)
by dteeuwen on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 06:08:22 PM EST

As everyone knows, low tempuratures increase sperm count.

_________

Down the slopes of death he rides
The eight hooves pound like drums
Darkness reigns the crumbling sky
Invasion has begun


[ Parent ]

Not quite. (none / 0) (#185)
by Trepalium on Mon Feb 17, 2003 at 08:53:12 PM EST

In school, I seem to remember July, August, and September being some of the most popular birthdays. Quite often these could be directly traced to a blizzard or large snowstorm that happened nine months ago. Something about "trying to keep warm".

[ Parent ]
I have serious doubts about the author (3.50 / 2) (#148)
by boxed on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 07:18:46 AM EST

The author claims to be a "first generation polish immigrant", making the indirect claim of having been born in Europe. Yet he says "countries such as [snip] the European Union". Quite frankly, I have trouble believing anyone claiming to be from Europe that as the same time calls the EU a "country".

Where did I say EU was a country? (N/T) (none / 0) (#169)
by MSBob on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 12:20:11 AM EST


I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
eh, try reading what you write dude (none / 0) (#174)
by boxed on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 07:43:38 AM EST

"Western countries such as Canada, United States or the European Union."

[ Parent ]
It was implied (none / 0) (#179)
by MSBob on Sun Feb 16, 2003 at 04:14:02 PM EST

I was implying about EU countries. The wording wasn't quite right but I can assure you that I'm born and bred European nonetheless :)
I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
Canadian Leavers (none / 0) (#150)
by Highlandr on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 08:23:40 AM EST

My father ( native of Canada ) left LONG ago.

Reason:
Lack Of Work or Opptys even for a son of the country.

This is not a new issue - Canadians have a myopic view of the World just as all citizens of their native country do.

Best Advice:  If you don't like the Country you are in - Then Leave.

The feeling you gain on returning is immeasurable.

Yeah right (4.50 / 2) (#152)
by MKalus on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 09:18:37 AM EST

Before I get accused of being a right wing racist xenophobe let me add that I'm a first generation Polish immigrant in Canada...

I grew up in Germany (and currently live in Canada) and I knew quite some Turkish NeoNazis back then who had the same line on their lips.

Just because you are not the "average" extremist doesn't mean you aren't one. Ideas usually don't confine themselves to skincolour, religion or last names.


-- Michael
Canada Needs Immigrants to Cope With Labor Crunch (none / 0) (#160)
by gliptak on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 02:25:05 PM EST

from http://ca.news.yahoo.com/030213/5/rt5s.html Canada needs immigrants to cope with a looming shortage of skilled labor and must give them the chance to build up new skills and win accreditation for those learned abroad, government ministers said on Thursday.

I don't believe that. (none / 0) (#161)
by Technix on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 04:08:19 PM EST

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I feel that the stance you've pointed out is wrong.

I'm a Canadian, now living abroad in the netherlands, and it would be hypocritical of me to speak out too much on this issue, as I am indeed an immigrant in another country.

However.

The shortage that Canada suffers from is critical thinking, and not any need for "skilled labour".

There are many true Canadians (those that were born in Canada at least one generation back, or more) that went to school, got a degree, and are working fast food because the employment-finding system is abysmal.

Consider what happens when you lose your job. In most countries you go on some sort of insurance benefit program, right?

In Canada, no matter how great they tell you the social system is, it is absolutely abysmal in it's treatment of the people looking for a SHORT TERM income to help them find the next job.

Canada does not need more immigrants to come in, for a period of 10 years. Period.

What Canada needs right now is to deal with the overwhelming majority of people who are:

a.) Educated/Skilled employees stuck in a low-income job.
b.) Individuals who have fantastic jobs, but are utterly wrong for the job, or completely, unfathomably horrendous at dealing with the position.
c.) Individuals who are in management who should be nowhere close to being so.

Time to cut some of the crud away from the ecology that the Canadian job market has evolved into. Once that is done, more critical thinking about how best to help the various social infrastructures and regional systems grow into what they were written and approved for in the first place must take place before Canada should allow the system to swell again.

Namely, health care, education, and public services.

That is the real cancer eating at the Canadian economy. Not a looming shortage of skilled workers, but a mis-management of all things that inter-relate to the social fabric of Canada itself.

Then, after ten years has passed, allow immigration to take it's place once again, albeit this time, under a more watchful eye.

</end rant>

;)
-Chris Simmons,
Haiku News http://haikunews.org
[ Parent ]

Oh please. (5.00 / 1) (#163)
by mindstrm on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 07:03:58 PM EST

True canadians, eh?

If your parents weren't born here, you aren't a REAL canadian, eh?

My family goes back about 6 generations in Canada. Is that TRUE enough for me to speak?

My Indian friend who SUFFERED in order to get to canada, then put up with what most of us would call really hard living conditions, and finally GOT CITIZENSHIP is as much a TRUE canadian as I am . Anyone who thinks he's not a "TRUE" canadian doesn't deserve to be canadian themselves. This country was founded on and is ABOUT immigration.
I see NO DISTINCTION. Where he or his parents are born is IRRELEVANT. You do not have some special status the further back your bloodline is.

No matter how noble you think your thinking is, or how well you meant it, that's the kind of thinking that comes from neo-nazis and other racist bigots.

As someone who lives abroad, you should see that.

Canada has a low birthrate. If we stop immigration for 10 years we are FUCKED.

Yes, the system is screwed up. Yes, it could be impvoed in many places. I mean, come on, we are a HUGE country with a tiny population! We ARENT the US of A.. we don't have almost 300 million taxpayers. We have 30 million. We are spread out.

[ Parent ]

You are missing the point (none / 0) (#168)
by Jonathan Walther on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 09:08:37 PM EST

So if we stop immigration we are fucked?  I disagree.  I think if we stop immigration, and THINGS CONTINUE AS THEY ARE, we are fucked.  But I believe such a measure would force those in positions of power to take positive social action to fix the root problem; our low birthrate.  Noone likes to give up power, economic or otherwise.  If blood-sucking the intellectual cream of other countries, stealing the future that they invested in, is no longer an option, Canada will be forced to deal with it's very real disfunctionalities.

We want the root problems of Canada to be fixed, instead of lying and decieving thousands of bright, intelligent people into coming here as immigrants and slaving away at minimum wage jobs.  We are ALREADY FUCKED; stopping immigration is an important step to allowing a real solution to be found.  Right now it immigration is being used as a key enabler of the accumulation of wealth into a few hands, and the turning of the rest of Canada into a gigantic feudal land of serfs.

Because you are doing well economically doesn't mean everyone else is, and calling them lazy is just a cheap way of closing your eyes and ignoring the reality that some people like to grab as much as they can, and then not share.  Screw that.  Canadians aren't idiots.  If it doesn't benefit them or their communities personally, why should they give two farts about "the economy"?

Charity starts at home, and Canada has no business bringing in immigrants while it's own native-born population is marginalized, with little access to education and jobs.  Canada is not a nation, but there was a time when it could have been.  If immigration is stopped for a while, it may yet become a nation.  The key attribute of a nation is that it looks out for the best interests of it's citizens, not for the best interests of OTHER nations citizens.

(Luke '22:36 '19:13) => ("Sell your coat and buy a gun." . "Occupy until I come.")


[ Parent ]
I tend to agree with you. (5.00 / 1) (#171)
by Dr Caleb on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 02:05:16 AM EST

We have a severely under utilized work force. There are many native born Canadians who are not working in their chosen professions. There are also many immigrants whose skills are not being realized.

Perhaps some of that is a lack of jobs in their chosen profession, perhaps some is due to choosing the wrong profession. The problem that immigrants face needs to be looked at as well. Just because the Canadian College of Physicians and Surgeons doesn't recognise a doctorate from Pakistan is no reason to turn away a skilled physician. There should be some way to give credit for what the person knows, and upgrade them to what the college expects. There is such a shortage of good doctors, a way must be found.

And we are too complacent. Canadians need to start becoming involved in community and country. You are right! I personally am doing quite well, and I don't give a rat's ass about the economy. But I should.

I disagree however on immigration. Out population is getting older, and our birth rate is too low to accomodate the coming death rate. We need to keep immigration rate at the same level as the death rate minus the birth rate, or the country will shrink and that can't happen. We need to get the people we have in a much better position; get the foriegn trained doctor working as a doctor, and still maintain population, or we'll wither. We are already over taxed as it is. The way the government pissed away money, we need to maintain the tax base, or the economy will recede.


Vive Le Canada - For Canadians who give a shit about their country.

There is no K5 cabal.
[ Parent ]

Look (none / 0) (#176)
by mindstrm on Sat Feb 15, 2003 at 01:34:19 PM EST

I agree, the economy is fucked up. I just think looking at it in terms of TRUE canadians and whatnot is a bunch of shit. Immigration is NOT the problem; the system is at fault. I know just as many first generation (or newly immigrated) people with jobs as I do second or more generation canadians, and the same goes for those out of work.

Immigration is NOT the issue; the economy in general is.


[ Parent ]

Looming, perhaps, but not here. (none / 0) (#186)
by Trepalium on Mon Feb 17, 2003 at 09:11:21 PM EST

There may or may not be a looming shortage of skilled labour, but it's not here yet. The baby boomers have not retired, and most won't be for another 10 years. It doesn't exactly make sense to have people enter the country when they wont' be able to get the job they are trained to do for another 10 years. I think Canadians could handle 2 or 3 years of labour shortage much easier than immigrants could handle 10 years of employment shortage.

Is it really fair for us to ask immigrants to suffer through years of poverty because of a promise of wealth in the future? And how are these people to "build up new skills and win accreditation" when they have to work (possibly multiple) minimum wage jobs just to stay alive?

[ Parent ]

Also fair enough. (none / 0) (#166)
by Imperfect on Fri Feb 14, 2003 at 08:03:45 PM EST

I was "inflamed with passion." =)

I'll watch my words in the future.

Not perfect, not quite.
You exaggerate (none / 0) (#180)
by DodgyGeezer on Sun Feb 16, 2003 at 06:03:14 PM EST

As a first generation Briton in Canada, I don't see what you're referring to.  People and employers here don't seem to have their heads stuck up their arses so much, and are generally just much more laid back.  Cost of living even with the lower wages and higher taxes is much more pleasant than where I came from in SE England.  If you find it too cold, why not move to BC?  Personally I find the summers in Ontario rather hard to deal with: hot and humid.  Having also spent three years living in Colorado, I can say I have a preference for life north of the border: it's less stressful, it's safer and society is generally much nicer.  Your comment about ghettos is really unfounded: I live downtown Toronto, and enjoying spending time in the cultural neighbourhoods, which are fairly safe and un-ghetto like.  I certainly have no problem walking around by myself at 3am.

I spent a fair amount of my life in Scotland (2.00 / 1) (#181)
by MSBob on Sun Feb 16, 2003 at 09:10:34 PM EST

Between the age of 17 and 26 I lived in Scotland. It's true that it's more expensive in the UK but at the same time I believe it's the "you get what you pay for" rule. The UK cities are much prettier, cleaner and more entertaining than the Canadian ones. Housing in the UK is expensive but just try to imagine what it would cost in Canada to buy a stone built house with a clay slate roof and all plaster walls. Every service or product I bought in the UK served me very well. In Canada I'm through my third electric kettle and I haven't even been for three years! Most of the jumpers I have are the ones from Marks & Spencer because the ones I bought in Canada fell apart after fewer than ten washes. I could go on but in the UK quality costs and the talk of "rip off Britain" is just whining.
I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
The Trick (none / 0) (#192)
by MKalus on Wed Mar 12, 2003 at 04:24:08 PM EST

Is not to buy the really cheap stuff.

Yeah, a lot of the stuff that is sold in North America is crap, that's why it is so cheap. If you look around a bit and are willing to pay some more bucks (reads, the same price as in europe) you find the same quality.

That is the "nice" thing about North America (more so in the US than in Canada though): There are a lot of extremes.
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

Is Sears good enough? (none / 0) (#193)
by MSBob on Fri Mar 14, 2003 at 11:53:32 PM EST

I buy household goods and most clothing at Sears as the locals tell me that that's where it's at in terms of quality. I'm still deeply dissatisfied although to be fair at least their return policy is better than that of most other Canadian retailers.
I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

[ Parent ]
It's not the store (none / 0) (#194)
by MKalus on Sun Mar 16, 2003 at 06:45:27 PM EST

It's the brand / make that you buy.

Some stores sell crap and charge you obscene amounts for it.

so far the only thing I've bought since I came to Canada that disintegrated was a frying pan from Ikea. After 3 years I can live with it, the pan cost me 10 bucks.

M.
-- Michael
[ Parent ]

Fraser Institute (none / 0) (#187)
by kalculy on Mon Feb 17, 2003 at 11:20:44 PM EST

Come now, you can't really believe that the Fraser Institute is anything but biased. I'm a newfie as are my parents and were my grandparents but I have spent most of my adult life living in these "ghettos". That is, in these cultural communities. I have seen the opposite of what you seem to have observed. Yes, I agree there is a problem with some professions, eg medical doctors, engineers etc. since there is a definite barrier for immigrants who have studied in these areas. However, most of my friends (being new immigrants all) are all gainfully employed in their chosen profession or in business for themselves. There is more than one side to this story and the number of PhD's in such situations is, IMO, exaggerated by people with a certain political agenda
cogito, ergo sum
cause vs consequence (none / 0) (#191)
by perlchild on Tue Feb 18, 2003 at 11:35:56 PM EST

funny how people are saying "limit the immigrants" when it's a symptom of a disease that affects natives as well(using the term to mean "born here" and not intending to slight anyone else)
The fact that immigrants have less resources, and hence, are more vulnerable, just makes them more visibly victims to the fact that:
- people are misinformed as to what jobs are available
- people are misinformed as to what qualifications lead to what jobs
- people who CAN grant jobs do so without a good idea what skills are needed for those jobs
and the result is that "the wrong person in the wrong seat" until "the wrong person is no longer with us" or "the wrong person fired the right person and now we're still unhappy"

How about instead of saying "let's close the door, and die from lack of air, we see what people from other places can teach us about the one thing we seem to be abysmal about, job organisation?


Canadian immigration programme must be halted | 194 comments (175 topical, 19 editorial, 0 hidden)
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