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Orange Revolution

By Oblom in Op-Ed
Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 01:18:04 PM EST
Tags: Politics (all tags)
Politics

After many years under the rule of the corrupted government there is a new hope for Ukraine: the new presidential elections. Among 28 candidates the 2 primary are the opposition candidate Victor Yushchenko (reformer which served as the Prime Minister in the past and was allegedly poisoned 1 month before the first tour of the elections) and the government's candidate Victor Yanukovich (twice convicted in the past of rape and organized robbery, currently serving as the Prime Minister, having strong ties with mafia clans and holding in iron fist authorities across Ukraine).


As most of mass media are in hands of the government many Ukrainians especially at the south-eastern areas of Ukraine had no objective coverage of the situation in their country and were deprived from knowledge of the opposition's platform but instead were fed off by official propaganda describing the opposition as a bunch of nationalists and fascists which are sponsored by the West. As the first tour of the elections ended, the final results were announced by the Central Election Commission of Ukraine after 10 days: Victor Yushchenko won by a small margin of 0.65% .

As the second tour which took place on November 21st, massive falsification, fraud and intimidation of opposition and independant observers took place in order to bump up votes in favour of the goverment's candidate. On November 24th the election commite announced results according to which Victor Yanukovich won by a margin of 2.85%. As much as 1.4-1.5 million votes reported to be falsified. According to data which were shown for a short period of time at the official site of the Central Election Commission at some areas of the south-east as much as 104% and 110% of the population participated in the elections. Approximately 1.4 million more balloutes than voters that actually participated in the elections were used.

To hundreds of thousands of people who have been supporting opposition at the Independence Square in Kiev for three days and nights joined hundreds of thousands of people more. People strike all over Ukraine demanding investigation of frauds and disaffirmation of election results.

Most of the countries in the world claimed that elections were fraudulent and those countries do not accept their results. The only countries which accepted the results as valid are authoritarian countries as Russia, Belarus, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, China, and Armenia.

In those days Ukraine has become orange. People of different age and social status who support opposition and protest against bold and rude rape of the nation wear and drive with orange ribbons; trees, stores and offices are decorated in orange colors. Even wedding corteges are orange. This is the first time for many years the Ukrainian nation has become so united and self-aware.

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Orange Revolution | 166 comments (154 topical, 12 editorial, 0 hidden)
How united actually (3.00 / 4) (#1)
by fhotg on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 04:13:36 PM EST

Currently it looks like in the east and south there are threats to try to declare inpedendence if Yushchenko becomes president.

Apparently also demonstrations of Yanukovich supporters are happening, and it's hard to believe that they are all bought

There apparently are huge differences between eas- and west Ukraine, cultural, language-wise and last not least in the structure of the economy.

I still have to find any non-partisan analysis by someone from Ukraine.

Anyways, the opposition will win: They have the Klitchko brothers and Rusana, what can go wrong ?
~~~
Gitarren für die Mädchen -- Champagner für die Jungs

Better then before. (2.80 / 5) (#4)
by Oblom on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 04:43:57 PM EST

My friend in Kyiv said a couple of days ago: "For the first time people are feeling united here and smiling to each other". Same thing is written in many Ukrainian blogs and sites.

Yeah, on east and south there are threats to declare independance, but it just wouldn't work. It's even against Ukranian constitution to have a referendum on this kind of issue. About 1.5 ago one of the opposition leaders Julia Timoshenko called Kuchma to arrest and put under investigation officials who made this kind of declarations. And actually Kuchma himself said earlier today that he wouldn't tolerate this kind of things

Yeah, there is demonstrations on east and south and not all people are bought. But many of them are brought there forcefully from work under orders: "either you go to bus or you go and get your resignation letter". Also there is problem that opposition is underrepresented in massmedia in this area. Friend of mine year ago came back from Israel to Ukraine and last week he came back here for vacation. Things that he told me about opposition, is well, out of touch with reality. My favourite story that if Yuschenko will win everybody who will speak russian will be fined on place 200 hryvnas... (and i wouldn't start telling all the stories that Yuschenko and his wife are CIA agents). Feeded with this kind of information it's not surprising that people there are afraid of opposition being in power

There are differences, but in the bottom line all of them are Ukranians. There is no kind of differences which can't be solved by dialog and some objective information about opposition's platform.

[ Parent ]
No question (2.66 / 3) (#13)
by fhotg on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 06:24:29 PM EST

What I gathered is mostly that absolutly stunning positive manifestation of patriotism. In the sense that even military, police & the spooks preemtively distance themselves from violence and take the orange side in Kiev. Makes me also feel better about a friend hanging out at Maydan right now.

Nevertheless, very difficult situation. Making Yushchenkow president won't work now. New elections ? How to pull that off fast, while guaranteeing no cheatage this time ?

Russia has LOTS to loose here. Wonder what they are going to do. I guess government strategy is to sit it out and hope peole go home at one point.
~~~
Gitarren für die Mädchen -- Champagner für die Jungs

[ Parent ]

Messy (3.00 / 6) (#15)
by Oblom on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 06:43:52 PM EST

Right now opposition want to change election commision (parlament voted to do it, but president is the one who can do it). They also want to cancel..hmm... don't know how it is in english... kind of paper of approval that you are you and it let's you to vote anywhere you want. In last 2 tours it was common that people were sitted into the bus, driven to the poll station where they voted, then sitted back to the bus again, driven to the next station... repeat many times. Also they demand to fire mayors, governers and people at regions administration who falscified results in any ways or used admin resource. And they also want Yankovich to be released from the prime minister position so he wouldn't be able to press on people.

And there is Russia... Right now mayor of Moscow is located at east Ukraine advocating for Yankovich and cursing Yuschenko. Speaker of Russian parlament says that decisions of Ukranian parlament are illigitemate and so is all of parlament and Yankovich is president as result of good and democratic elections. And there is russian tv which spills out propoganda: a couple of days Russia's goverment tv station ORT aired at ~15:00 news story showing empty from people independance square in kiev (place where all protests take place), with snow and a few tents claiming that opposition went home. At the same time I saw at channel 5 video stream and on couple of webcams that located at same spot a couple hundreds of thousends of peopls protesting at the very same spot. I guess russia's tv can teach David Kopperfield a few tricks.

Russia (or it's goverment actually) has a lot to loose. Besides Ukraine they can loose here Belarus, and after a while whole Russia to the people who would like fresh breath of air.

[ Parent ]
Slightly OT: You're thinking of voter registration (3.00 / 2) (#49)
by Gluke on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 02:10:31 PM EST

And a "proof of identity", or ID for short. In the US they try solving the same problem by requiring location-dependent voter registration. Yet still apparently some people registered to vote and indeed proceeded to vote in several locations (in the latest US election, at least in Colorado), as you describe. So much for having all them fancy computer networks! :)

[ Parent ]
Kind of (3.00 / 3) (#51)
by Oblom on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 02:26:28 PM EST

Yes and no. It's not an ID. And it's not voter registration. It's bizarre combination of both.

After first tour opposition tried to solve this problem by putting stamps into the passport saying that this person already voted today. But surprise-surprise, this law hadn't manged to pass in parlament.

PS. speaking of fancy computer networks: there is persistant rumor that in president's administration there is transit server which sits between server of central election commission and regions who transfer there results. And that this transit server was used to falsify some of the data.

[ Parent ]
transit server (none / 1) (#56)
by countdown on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 04:10:35 PM EST

More likely it was used to know how much more false votes they need and buffer the data, cause a ton of ballots were thrown in after the end of election, buffering the reports allowed them to make changes in the data over time seem more natural.

[ Parent ]
Belarus (none / 0) (#50)
by Gluke on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 02:15:59 PM EST

I hope that the Kartoffel-growing Kartoffel-eating neighbors to the north of Ukraine take the cue and dislodge that turd of a "leader", Lukashenko. When is their next election?

[ Parent ]
Soon (none / 0) (#53)
by Oblom on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 02:42:40 PM EST

President - 2006 (Lukashenko just won referendum a few months ago which will allow him to go to third cadention what contradicts constitution of Belarus).
Parlament - 2004 (actually this one already happened together with referendum iirc)

Those days there is representatives of opposition movement Zubr in Kyiv. Learning. Yesterday arrived representatives of Kazahstan opposition. To learn.

[ Parent ]
Golden opportunity for Russia (1.16 / 6) (#54)
by Beayf on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 03:54:30 PM EST

Central and eastern Ukraine is fundamentally a part of Russia, and always has been. The split between Russian and Ukraine was a mistake, and never should have happened. Hopefully, Putin will grow a pair and seize the opportunity to make it right.

[ Parent ]
Ttheir argumentation (3.00 / 3) (#55)
by countdown on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 04:04:01 PM EST

They are brainwashed to believe that their region is a basis of Ukrainian economy, they don't dispute the falsification, they just claim their votes are worth more.

So what do numbers tell us? Their part in GNP is around 6%. Their export is 30% of the whole (they are told it's 80%). The debt to the workers there is above 65% of the total across entire country.

The region is important, but the whole wealth it genereates goes into pockets of Ahmetov and his minions, Yanukovich and alike. Ahmetov himself made 1,5 milliard american dollars ($1,500,000,000) this year alone! Big money.

[ Parent ]

You miss the point (2.80 / 5) (#63)
by fhotg on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 08:29:48 PM EST

They might be more brainwashed than the Kiev people, but if brainwashed people would have no say in choosing the democratic representation, then in the US only Tim from Boulder a bunch of people from New York would be allowed to vote.

They don't say their votes are worth more. The fact that there was enormous cheating on on side doesn't automatically make the other side the winner. At least according to democratic principles and logic. Howevar, what's happening now is a shot at a Revolution. Those events don't follow democratic rules, and I'm all for their success. That is because it would put criminals with more style and education in power and it would piss off Putin.

See, there is no principal difference between hard working lower classed exploited by a post-soviet mafia oligarchy and hard working lower classes exploited by a capitalist white-collar criminal oligarchy. It's just a mater of style: the latter look better and have more sophisticated brainwashing technologies.

But maybe I just have a weird perspective on things. Last year I vistited L'vov. One point that stuck was that for the average people, the quality of food available was much better than in Germany, and absofuckinglutely stellar compared to Canada.

But yes, nobody there can afford a color display 3 band cellphone with buildin electrical nosehair clipper like you get it here for free if you buy the Super Triple Whopper Menu.
~~~
Gitarren für die Mädchen -- Champagner für die Jungs

[ Parent ]

more on this (2.50 / 2) (#73)
by countdown on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 02:56:17 AM EST

Sure, brainwashed people should vote too. But the dialogue is like this: Reasonable people: Hey! Yanukovich is a rapist after all, he knows nothing about economy, he's a puppet, he's a criminal, he's a dirty motherfucker in and out. Everybody knows this, enough people didn't fear to vote him down, majority voted for Yushenko, we will know what that brings us later, but he did win. Yanukovich only won by official count by a small margin even w/ all those outrageous falsifications. Dare for a rematch? Yanukovich fans: Fuck you! We voted for him and we will deny reality that we were few. We want this guy, so look at the numbers, and he bought me a drink to tell this. Ick! We are mighty and we were right in voting him - see, he is stronger, he can maniplate elections, even. BTW, did we say "fuck you" yet?

[ Parent ]
this is not logical (3.00 / 2) (#85)
by fhotg on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 06:59:21 AM EST

If you have a botched unrecoverable election there is no point in saying "but I know we won". You have to vote again.

Or, more likely, both parties (the politicians, not the people, mind you) silently agree at one point that everything is better than give too much power to the people and settle for a crimin^H^H^H^H^H^H gentlemens agreement: Yushchenko becomes president to make people happy and enough old-power thugs get into the government to make happy Russia and the established oligarchy.

Nothing really changes, but people feel better.

This is my official prediction for the outcome and I'm willing to bet a case of you favorite malt & hops brew on it.
~~~
Gitarren für die Mädchen -- Champagner für die Jungs

[ Parent ]

maybe you're right (3.00 / 3) (#124)
by countdown on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 08:32:07 PM EST

I see your point and it can turn out that way, anyway, I am not predicting anything, I was just trying to give you an impression of what it is like talking to 'soldiers' on both sides of this conflict first-hand. Yushenko fans are majorly brainwashed too, but they are still more reasonable and much less agressive. You know, like really democratic, while Yanukovich supporters are surely not.

[ Parent ]
Just like the West threatened to break off (none / 1) (#68)
by jdoeii on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 01:03:26 AM EST

Currently it looks like in the east and south there are threats to try to declare inpedendence if Yushchenko becomes president

Just like the Western Ukraine (Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk) threatened to break off when it became obvious Yanukovich won by the official count.



[ Parent ]
It's sad. (1.25 / 4) (#2)
by Gluke on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 04:19:40 PM EST

Whatever happened to the freedom loving nation of Cossacks (Kazaks, or whatever the accepted standard transliteration)? They never took direction from anyone they didn't accept, because they were true free nomadic warriors. At least that's what I remember from some novels I had to read a long time ago. Sadly, those days are long gone. Or maybe the novels were too much of a fiction. Maybe they really are all pussies.

This is this (none / 1) (#6)
by Oblom on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 04:52:21 PM EST

What's going now it's their fight for freedom.

[ Parent ]
They were pretty much wiped out (2.66 / 3) (#28)
by lucius on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 12:20:53 AM EST

under the soviets (partially through not being considered a separate nationality) on account of their counter-revolutionary nature (eg supporting the mensheviks). There have been reconstituted Cossack Hosts, but mainly they are in poor areas and work fairly small-scale protection rackets.

Simply put, the soviet state was too powerful for them to exist as a disfavoured group.

[ Parent ]

Mensheviks? (none / 1) (#33)
by strlen on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 01:31:38 AM EST

They supported the tzar. Mensheviks were just another communist faction. Though this may have been different in Ukraine, as if I recall correctly, the Ukranian cossacks were somewhat different (lot of interesting history, especially with the Zaporoj'e cossacks).

--
[T]he strongest man in the world is he who stands most alone. - Henrik Ibsen.
[ Parent ]
You're right, sorry (none / 0) (#38)
by lucius on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 04:08:30 AM EST

I meant white army.

What's this about the Zaporoj'e Cossacks?

[ Parent ]

Different group of Kossacks (2.66 / 3) (#61)
by strlen on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 05:34:01 PM EST

Different from the Don Kossacks. They even had their own independent (or quasi-independent) land inside of Ukraine, in the Zaporoj'e (also the home of the infamous ZAZ line of cars). I'm somewhat rusty on the exact history of them, but I believe they fought both the Turks and the Poles at one point.

--
[T]he strongest man in the world is he who stands most alone. - Henrik Ibsen.
[ Parent ]
+1 SP (2.37 / 8) (#3)
by Undefined Variable on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 04:23:06 PM EST

Looks like a good summary of the western view on the recent election in Ukraine. I didn't vote FP simply because this view is massively over-represented. Personally, I'd like to hear the east's argument, or a non-partisan one atleast.

___
"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
East's view summery (3.00 / 7) (#9)
by Oblom on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 05:50:49 PM EST

Or as called by other peoples myths.

We don't want to feed west Ukraine: the popular opinion that it's that east (coal mines) bring most of the moneys to Ukrain's budjet. But they forget that coal industry is heavely subsidized by the govermant and usually not profitable

They are nationalists, they want to force us to speak only in Ukranian language, our russian speaking children wouldn't be able to study in Kyiv or work there. And we also will be fined for not speaking Ukranian or for speaking Russian.: Come on ! Yuschenko says all the time that his kinds are speaking both languages and he hopes they their chidren will speak them too and plus a few forign languages (english, german, french).

While Yuschenko was prime minister we had no money and this changed when Yunkovich became prime minister. Now we have money and food. We don't want Yuschenko back.: What they forget it's that Yuschenko was the one who stoped enormouse inflation that was at those days and his energy minister Timoshenko outlawed common then practice of giving to people instead of salary "stuff" on inflated prices. Yunkovich which followed them just surfed on what they did and took all of the credit to himself

We hate Yuschenko. And Timoshenko too !: ahh.. well.. nu.. you can't argue with this.

And they will close the mines:... mines are mostly private those days.

USA/NATO will send army here to help oppsition: no comments.

Yuschenko and his wife are CIA agents: ... And Kuchma with Yankovich are FSB agents (what actually have a decent chance of being true)

West supports Yuschenko: so what ? Russia's supports of Yankovich seems not to trouble them (saw interview)

New people will come and we will have to bribe them all over again. Even more then before: Well, what can I say...it's just plain sad if they don't want to get to the reality when they don't have to pay bribe. Friend of mine that I reffered to in other post said that he prefer the rule of criminals since he knows that if he bribes somebody right whatever he wants will be done in a moment. No burocracy.



[ Parent ]
Few comments on myths (none / 1) (#79)
by Shubin on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 05:17:42 AM EST

Coal mines : correct. Nobody needs so much coal anymore. But there is not only coal. What about steel industry ?
Yuschenko will not support nationalism : This is lie. No matter what he thinks and feels now, he has no other choice. Look at the Baltic states.
Yuschenko was the one who stoped enormouse inflation : this is nonsence. I can believe that story about St.George and the dragon, but I'll never beleive that one man alone stopped inflation in a whole country.
Russia's supports of Yankovich : This IS a good point. Russia's support of Yankovich looks extremely nasty and stupid. A big shame for Putin.
Well, on the whole situation : I think that the election was unfair. No matter what side had the preference, but it was unfair. That means that people in Kiev did a good job, making Rada to admit the fact.
I am envious. You did the great thing anyway. The latest two election in Russia were completely unfair too. They led to power a bunch of bureaucratic idiots, hostile to all Russian population. Nobody cares. Nobody protested. Our so-called opposition at the meeting with the president after elections started their speeches from the common phrase "I love you, mr. President"
I hope that the re-election will be less falsified in the Ukraine. Good luck, neighbours !

[ Parent ]
Eastern View [correction] (3.00 / 9) (#18)
by uvarchik on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 06:49:13 PM EST

Sorry, firgot to format properly.

Im originally from Donbass, the region that supported Yanukovich the most (as they say). Though I have been living in Kharkiv for already several years my parents and brother are still in east Ukraine and I can represent their point of view. Arguments are mine.

My parents have been working for one of subsidiaries of Ukrainian energy companies - the former Donbassenergo. In the second tour they voted for yanukovich. When I asked them why their strongest argument was "because Yushchenko has Timoshenko in his company". They believe that Yushchenko while Prime Minister and Timoshenko while minister of energy of Ukraine have stolen their money. The point my parents have is a very common argument for people who voted for Yanukovich "against" Timoshenko. What I can say is that it was her who prohibited any barter payments and legalized money form of payments. Considering `stealing'... Well, the problem is that the system was as following: salary money for energy company workers accumulated on special accounts and only from there could be spread to needs of company. Who had access to those accounts - Medvedchuk, Sukris and other Donetsk representatives, which transferred money to offshore zones - those are responsible for hungry years of energy workers. What Timoshenko did - she established the direct system of payments, but unfortunately she quikly fall into Kuchma's disgrace and Yanukovich's government set Tulub in Minister of energy chair again. (Tulub was responsible for barter payments.) However this is the game in which ordinary people like me and my parents will probably never find the final truth, but what I say here is based on the information available to every person from internet.

They believe that Yushchenko is supported by the poverty-stricken east, and people from east have nothing to do but to go to Kiev to strikes. Are my parents wealthy?!?! In this beggarly country people feed themselves, each person survive by all means necessary, by what they grow on their land, and it is impossible to speak about rich east! Even if they talk about poor west, then why this west is poor? Does it live under some other government? Is it autonomy? Who is responsible for the poor west? Why people from western regions go abroad (sometimes illegally) to find work and feed their families? I personally have been to Poland two times and I spoke to Ukrainians there. They owned smth like 1000 zl (two years ago) and cared for their families without eastern mines. Now I work with many western people who own firms, who drive great cars, who have nice offices and plenty employees. All of them are in Kiev now. All of them. And they support Yushchenko. In my home town of Stakhanov there are no working mines. The President Kuchma PERSONALLY came to water them several years ago. There's no work there. People survive on "green fodder". Eastern people go to Moscow to find job just as western people go to Europe. So, show me the reach east!

They believe the channel 5 zombies people. They believe in the 25th frame in it. Well... let's see what they had before the elections: Inter, 1+1. UT-1, UT-2, ICTV - are all pro-governmental channels. And there are only two (!) oppositional channels throughout Ukraine - ERA and channel 5. Even more - oppositional channels were prohibited in Donbass and my parents didn't have any opportunity to watch them. When they finally watched channel 5 they got hysterical about what they saw! So, who was easier to zombie? Western Ukrainians with at least 7 different channels or Eastern Ukrainians with at least 5 governmental channels?

After all nobody claims that Yanukovich had 0% of votes. He's got his own electorate and this is unquestionable. The essence is that he didn't win. He stole Yushchenko's victory using almost absolute power and administrative leverages. Candidates are so different that the margin of 2+% is impossible. 100% presence in Donbass is also impossible. I am from there. I know. And what they say about density of populations is also not truthful. Yeah, there are many people _registered_ there, but they do not live there actually. In my home house half of flats are empty because people from there are in Moscow. I do not believe they came to Ukraine for one day just to vote for Yanukovich!


[ Parent ]

Era TV channel is a joke (none / 1) (#58)
by countdown on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 04:25:46 PM EST

While being less biased and all that it is aired only 11PM till 9AM. Does that count as a TV channel? :)

[ Parent ]
Thank you both (none / 0) (#22)
by Undefined Variable on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 08:22:36 PM EST

That puts things into perspective for me.

___
"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
[ Parent ]
Some of the blue view (none / 0) (#98)
by Arker on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 05:09:58 PM EST

This article has some interesting quotes from miners in Donetsk.



[ Parent ]
The US State Department (2.80 / 10) (#5)
by LilDebbie on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 04:47:33 PM EST

hard at work. No, seriously.

And you people think you're fighting the Man!

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

USA! USA! USA! (2.33 / 6) (#16)
by Apuleius on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 06:45:34 PM EST

Seriously, what is wrong with the US joining the side of the angels?


There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. (The South Park chef)
[ Parent ]
You didn't get the memo? (1.60 / 5) (#27)
by LilDebbie on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 11:57:55 PM EST

We're the "Great Satan," so obviously we can do no right.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
No, no. It's "Great Moron" (none / 1) (#72)
by cburke on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 02:28:37 AM EST

because we somewhere became convinced that "doing right" and "knowing what the fuck you're doing" aren't related.

Though I have to say that with the current batch of morons if they know how to do anything it's run a successful (distinct from "meritous") campaign.   Hope it works out well for them, assuming they considered the consequences for once.


[ Parent ]

Do you mean Kerry's side? (2.40 / 5) (#39)
by svampa on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 04:52:11 AM EST

Why can't Europe and the rest of the world support Kerry? Dump bilions into democrat party, fund anti-bush organizations, use their inteligence services investigate republicans members to desprestige them

Simply, it's bad to interference in other countries elections. USA woundn't like, and other countires don't like USA puts its hands in their internal affairs.



[ Parent ]
opposite effect (none / 1) (#141)
by adimovk5 on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 10:31:57 AM EST

.....Why can't Europe and the rest of the world support Kerry? Dump bilions into democrat party, fund anti-bush organizations, use their inteligence services investigate republicans members to desprestige them.....Simply, it's bad to interference in other countries elections. USA woundn't like, and other countires don't like USA puts its hands in their internal affairs.....

The attempts of the rest of the world would cause the opposite effect. Attempts to support Kerry would annoy opposition voters and cause them to go to the voting booth in greater numbers. No major foreign leaders openly supported Kerry for that reason. Kerry's claim that he had foreign support, that he couldn't prove, also hurt him. Witness the uproar against the overt attempts of the UK Guardian.

No population approves of another nation trying to influence its internal politics. The results of the US have been successful because it is being covert. It's operating through local people and organization. As long as the vast majority of voters are unaware, there will be no backlash against the candidates it supports.

[ Parent ]

Strangely (2.50 / 4) (#23)
by xria on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 09:13:16 PM EST

Although I have a very dim view of US international interventionism since 1960 in most cases, support pro democracy candidates with funding/advice/workers etc. seems fairly laudable. Especially seeing as in at least one case they have supported a fairly anti-US (but pro-democracy) candidate.

[ Parent ]
I have to disagree (2.25 / 4) (#59)
by Arker on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 04:30:44 PM EST

When one country intervenes in anothers internal affairs, to the point of bankrolling a political party, that shows utter disregard for both sovereignty and democracy. It's a very poor precedent, and a very poor example. How do you think the US would respond to Russia or China interfering in US elections like that?

It always backfires in the longrun, if not the short, as well, and that's another reason why it simply shouldn't be done.



[ Parent ]
It seldom backfires (none / 0) (#143)
by adimovk5 on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 10:45:49 AM EST

.....I have to disagree .....When one country intervenes in anothers internal affairs, to the point of bankrolling a political party, that shows utter disregard for both sovereignty and democracy. It's a very poor precedent, and a very poor example. How do you think the US would respond to Russia or China interfering in US elections like that? .....It always backfires in the longrun, if not the short, as well, and that's another reason why it simply shouldn't be done....

Nations often interfere in the affairs of others. Why? It's in their best interests to do so. Nations want to have governments installed that are friendly or at worst neutral. Occasionally someone will make a mistake and the attempts will be obvious. Backlash occurs. Most of the time the attempts are successful and you never hear of them.

Allegations of illegal Chinese influence on Clinton and his administration surfaced repeatedly during Clinton's presidency.

In the long run, covert influence is a highly successful practice. The short term losses for being caught are far outweighed by the long term gains when achieving office for favored candidates. Otherwise why would countries repeatedly try?

[ Parent ]

They're fighting the other Man (2.77 / 9) (#26)
by rusty on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 10:37:56 PM EST

Yanukovich is a toady for Putin's new and improved USSR (same great totalitarian taste, now with 98% less communism!). So naturally we're backing the other guy.

All I know is that this meeting of international pretend-democracy and mass marketing is totally hot, whichever side you support. Why can't the Democratic party get some of this?

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

remember gore and his supposed chinese $? (2.33 / 3) (#81)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 05:26:11 AM EST

there was the slightest whiff that the chinese were trying to give money to gore in the 2000 election: meeting in buddhist temples and all that paranoid drama

the media went nuts, and the message was clear: if international influence is seen in your campaign, it will work against you

personally, i think the more international things are, the better, but just try and get that past the pundits without being called a "traitor!"


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

If we're accused (none / 0) (#129)
by emmons on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 01:50:58 AM EST

If we're accused of trying to support a pro-democracy candidate's movement vs. a candidate hand-picked by a corrupt government, then I would proudly take blame.

Now, if the US were to be accused of trying to unduly influence politics within a stable democracy like any of western Europe, then I'd be upset. But trying to help a democratic movement against a corrupt and anti-democratic government? How is that bad?

---
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]

You mean that the Dutch (1.00 / 7) (#10)
by RaveWar on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 05:54:37 PM EST

soccer team is not now in Kiev? So why are there people on the telly wearing orange shirts?

in all seriousness, these uppity Ukranians should take it like a man, like the USians did back in 2000. They too may grow to like their rather conservative prime minister and vote for him next time round, a victory for democracy even if they do decide to rig the election (if it was rigged at all, beyond the kind of shennanigans that may occur by all sides in any emerging but otherwise healthy democracy), just to be sure.
We don't need freedom. We don't need love.
We want Superpower, Ultraviolence.

No, but Shahtyor is around. (none / 0) (#12)
by Oblom on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 06:17:57 PM EST

Shahtyor is a football team from east Ukraine which belongs to billioner Ahmetov, biggest supporer of Yankovich. Their colors are orange+black. Popular joke those days is they will have to change orange to something else . Actually in one of the east cities (Kharkiv I think) there was an order a couple of days ago to change orange color on uniform and hamlets of municipality workers to blue/green... So from funny to sad it's not that far those days.

And the problem is not that the prime minister is conservative but that he is the criminal. And there is way too many falscifications to ignore, so people not gonna "just take it as a man" this time.



[ Parent ]
Shahtyor Donetsk (none / 0) (#20)
by fhotg on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 07:33:17 PM EST

played AC Milano at Wednesday, in the Champions League. As guests they had the right to choose the color of their dress. However they didn't wear their traditional orange dress.

They lost 4:0. :).
~~~
Gitarren für die Mädchen -- Champagner für die Jungs

[ Parent ]

Dinamo Kyiv (none / 0) (#21)
by Oblom on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 07:55:33 PM EST

played day before against Roma. Because of the snow black and white ball was changed to orange one. After this Dinamo scored 2 goals and wone the game.

PS. During Shahtyor's games funs hold sign :" Shevchenko, you bring shame upon Ukraine" addressing Shevchenko who expressed support to Yankovich.

[ Parent ]
Your Ukraine is orange. (2.60 / 10) (#17)
by i on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 06:47:46 PM EST

But there's the other Ukraine, the blue one. Please don't pretend it doesn't exist.

Disclaimer: I'm not a part of either one.

and we have a contradicton according to our assumptions and the factor theorem

It exists (none / 1) (#19)
by Oblom on Sun Nov 28, 2004 at 07:00:23 PM EST

But it's an Op-Ed about Orange Revolution and not "objective" "daily status of world affairs for USA president" report :)
I tried to show common points of "Blue" Ukraine at post below, and now somebody else did same thing.

[ Parent ]
don't let the trolls here dissuade you oblom (2.31 / 16) (#29)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 12:22:02 AM EST

most of them are bored dissaffected dissolute rich westerners sitting in their parent's basement who wouldn't know the nature of what you are fighting for if you smacked them in the face with it

ignore them, your cause is more just and more real than anything they will know in their entire lives, and you should be proud

please, keep up the fight, ignore the dissaffected useless rich western children who bear no understanding of the real struggles underway in this world, who form opinions about these struggles that only gives indirect support to tyranny, and don't even understand it as anything more than a joke for them to laugh at

we who understand the real weight and import of your struggle stand with you, and salute you

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Rosy biased view of complex political situation. (1.25 / 4) (#35)
by Tezcatlipoca on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 02:47:34 AM EST



Might is right
Freedom? Which freedom?
[ Parent ]
if anti-election tampering is a rosy bias (1.85 / 7) (#37)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 03:19:56 AM EST

then

1. i don't want to be un-biased

and

2. you're an asshole


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

One thing Ukranians have got to understand (2.00 / 6) (#30)
by MSBob on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 01:12:35 AM EST

Poland is your FRIEND and is wishing you WELL despite of what your media keeps telling you or what happened between us in the past. Warsaw is brimming with rallies of support for protesters in Kiev. We sent our top diplomats to help with the election. All we ask for is that Ukranians stop looking at us as "Slav traitors". Good luck Ukraine.
I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.

this is supportive (3.00 / 4) (#32)
by uvarchik on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 01:28:56 AM EST

Thanks a lot! On Kharkiv's meeting I saw Polish flag in the crowd and people under it scanned "Poland is with you!"
i also saw British and Georgia flags. Thank you all, this is really supportive, especially for Kharkiv which always was very, very inert to mass actions.

[ Parent ]
Stolen Election? (1.66 / 6) (#31)
by Arker on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 01:21:19 AM EST

The British Helsinki Human Rights Group report might be an interesting read for some of you.



Hmm (none / 0) (#34)
by xria on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 01:56:42 AM EST

Their glibness about the exit polling in Ohio and Florida being 'unscientific' makes me a little dubious about the value of their contribution to the discussion, although I would not be surprised by sentiments that in an environment where polling fraud is commonplace, it is likely both sides are going to be doing it, of course then the question is which side was being more ambitious.

[ Parent ]
"Glibness?" (none / 1) (#36)
by Arker on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 03:07:10 AM EST

How so? The polls in question are clearly not scientific. (I worked in the field for over a decade, I do know what I'm talking about.) They're also clearly and demonstrably inaccurate on many occasions.

I'm afraid that in any election of any size, you're going to have some fraud, and I don't think you can just go in and estimate whether one side or another benefitted the least from it and therefore wins. It just doesn't work that way. You throw out as much fraud as you can catch, you prosecute any fraudsters you can catch, and beyond that, you count the votes remaining and those are the results. It's not pretty, but what you're suggesting would be even worse. Not least because there just isn't any way to be certain what the answer is.



[ Parent ]
That group is bogus. (none / 0) (#52)
by kamil on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 02:32:39 PM EST

There are two British Helsinki organizations, they came to two diffrent whose evaluations of the election in Ukraine are diametrically opposed. The British Helsinki Subcommittee of the Parliamentarian Human Rights Group and the International Helsinki Federation (IHF) both critical of the legitimacy of the elections. http://www.ihf-hr.org/viewbinary/viewhtml.php?doc_id=6055 http://www.ihf-hr.org/viewbinary/viewhtml.php?doc_id=6111 The British Helsinki Human Rights Group is a New group. An artical on the group: http://www.ukar.org/barcla/barcla01.html Kamil

[ Parent ]
Considering their record (none / 1) (#57)
by Arker on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 04:22:59 PM EST

Considering their record, labeling them as 'bogus' looks more like a cheap attempt to substitute slurs for argument to me, as does the vast majority of the verbiage on that page. I'm sorry, being skeptical of Brussels doesn't make them "PR flack[s] for a new breed of authoritarian rulers" but quite the opposite, really. They've been around for many years, they've been the first to report on problems others have preferred to ignore, and it seems to me when they disagree with the group you reference, they're right well over half the time. They had people in place to observe certain facts, and reported what they saw, being careful to make explicit the limitations of their ability to observe - and they've always made a point to do that. It's a strong contrast with the obviously one-sided statements some of the other groups that had observers made, and it's one that suggests a great deal more integrity to me.

I'd have to say that, of all the groups I'm aware of that had observers there, this is the last one that could with any credibility be accused of functioning as a "PR flack for a new breed of authoritarian rulers" and it's by far the most credible.



[ Parent ]
Only 2 of 28 (none / 0) (#77)
by Highlander on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 04:17:42 AM EST

I did read the report, or at least a summary.

They just visited 2 of 28 ukrainian regions and their reports about Yushchenko caused elections problems pales in comparision to reported Yanukovic caused election problems.

Moderation in moderation is a good thing.
[ Parent ]

PR flacks for authoritarian rulers (none / 0) (#83)
by Scrymarch on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 05:35:47 AM EST

Appears to come from this Guardian article, not anyone's comment above ...

Anyway, that article has a fair shot at discrediting them, it can stand next to the report.  They do seem to be in interesting company.


... for Sanders by a Canadian lawyer named Chris Black. Black is the only person I have ever seen putting the word genocide in quotation marks when applied to Rwanda.


[ Parent ]
The source was up there (none / 1) (#84)
by Arker on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 05:59:10 AM EST

The Guardian link just quoted it, as one of the links in the post I was replying to did, more fully.

I think it's pretty sad when people feel they have to argue by calling the opponent names, instead of relying on facts and logic. I'm sure the BHHRG is not infallible, but when I see them acknowledge that, and generally behave in a responsible manner, while their opponents engage in classic and relatively transparent propaganda tactics instead, it tends to boost their credibility with me.

I doubt very much that anyone knows for sure what all happened in regards to fraud in that election. But painting it as a manichean confrontation, with one side all good and righteous and the other despicable and responsible for every evil and abuse... I can't honestly see how anyone could take that sort of reporting seriously. Particularly when it's coming from groups with a vested interest in supporting the 'good' candidate, and ties to foreign powers that are blatantly bankrolling and promoting him.



[ Parent ]
BTW (3.00 / 2) (#116)
by Arker on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 10:51:17 AM EST

... for Sanders by a Canadian lawyer named Chris Black. Black is the only person I have ever seen putting the word genocide in quotation marks when applied to Rwanda.

BTW, this is an excellent example of what I mean when I speak about cheap propaganda tactics. Rather than actually argue any substantive issues, that author chooses to slur one man by saying he is associated with another, and then slur the second. At no point does he actually quote an argument - let alone rebutt it.

Chris Black does put the word genocide in quotes when talking about Rwanda. But he doesn't simply put quotes around the word and then pretend that doing so constitutes a serious argument - he has an argument, and backs it up with legitimate methods of argumentation. That doesn't necessarily mean it's correct - but it's certainly a lot more credible than the sort of content-free innuendo this critic uses.

Chris Black on Rwanda



[ Parent ]
Slurs and trust (none / 0) (#127)
by Scrymarch on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 12:42:04 AM EST

slur one man by saying he is associated with another

Slur?  They work at the same risk consultancy, contribute to the same publications, and offer parallel opinions!

I read the Rwanda article.  It's not overflowing with facts either, though it puts forward some interesting detail about witnesses getting shafted.

But the idea David Aaronovitch is being underhanded, or a mudraker, by sketching out the ideology of John Laughland, is ridiculous.  A look around Sanders Consultancy makes it clear they have some traditional ideas about national sovereignty, and a view of US power projection both critical and giving it a dramatic amount of credit.  Kind of Trotsky meets Kissinger.

I'd go further.  This ideological backgrounding is crucial when the opinion maker in question is not already in the public eye, as a politician or frequent columnist.  On the Sanders website the ideology becomes pretty quickly clear, complete with obscure cartoons about central bankers.  In the pages of the Guardian, or as a talking head, the context is stripped away.

NGOs and election monitors rely on trust.  We give people trust because of their established record and a belief they're on our side.  This is why the ideological context is crucial.

Laughland should keep going to elections - his viewpoint should be represented in the market of ideas.  But you can best know his perspective when you know his record.

[ Parent ]

PR man to Europe's nastiest regimes (3.00 / 2) (#90)
by uvarchik on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 01:58:49 PM EST

PR man to Europe's nastiest regimes might be an interesting read for some of us, too:)

[ Parent ]
I haven't seen enough evidence of fraud (2.00 / 10) (#43)
by nebbish on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 06:37:37 AM EST

Though I've certainly heard many people saying it has occured. I wrote this about it last week.

It seems to me that east and west are fighting over Ukraine and it isn't clear who is right and who is wrong.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

Evidence (2.87 / 8) (#44)
by Oblom on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 06:54:28 AM EST

I posted some in different threads: here, here and here,

Most of the fighting those days are done by east which is talking about South-Eas Republic of Ukraine and about joining Russian Federation. West is mostly peacefully protests and asks east to come and talk. Or just to watch some alternative television channel


[ Parent ]
Many qeusts without answers for those doubting (3.00 / 9) (#60)
by uvarchik on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 04:40:07 PM EST

There is plenty of evidence. I think there would be no use to just name them, because the next question would probably be "how can you prove it?" So, I would like to go vise versa and ask some questions to which there are no definite answers.

I came to think that the entire pre-election campaign of Yanukovich was really, really well organized. I came to think that what Ukrainians face now is just a logical sequence of that campaign. Yanukovich's candidature was so obviously polycemantic that it was clear from the very beginning that western Ukraine (other possible discordant people were left in reserve, but were strongly counted on) would _never_ accept him as the President. Yanukovich's image makers from Russia are far not fools and if the aim were only the idea of saving the outgoing regime they would have chose some other more decent candidate. They intentionally chose the criminal. They begin to split the society long before the actual elections took place. Note, I don't say that eastern Ukraine would never accept Yushchenko as the President. But now it won't.  Now the Donetsk clan simply uses poor people while members of the clan transfer money to somewhere and getting started to leave the country. All this bullshit with the Supreme Court is just another prolongation which plays for them. You may already see that government is in panic. I wouldn't be surprised if Yanukovich leave Kuchma as the scapegoat for Russia and the world to blame, though most probably Kuchma will avoid justice. Russia lost a lot in this project, this is clear. Yet Putin strongly denies his being a party of the election campaign in Ukraine. On the EU summit he called not to interfere into Ukrainian democratic process and he pointed that either recognizing or non-recognizing the results of the elections in Ukraine is solely the domestic affair of Ukraine.  Then WHY there was the mayor of Moscow in Severodonetsk? Why he called to create some South-Eastern autonomy in unitary state? Who's Luzhkov? After all, people, open your eyes - many of your relatives work in Moscow, don't you know how Moscow authorities treat them? Who do you listen to?

Eventually, if there were no frauds in Donbass, then why did Yanukovich go there to prove there were no frauds?!? Why do I need to convince my mom that she is my mom? Next, Yanukovich claims there were violations in western regions. Wouldn't it be logical to refer to western population and say smth like: "Dear Ukrainians, I'm deeply sorry that you didn't have the equal opportunity to choose between candidates and didn't have the objective information about me and my team. I promise to come to your regions and to tell you about myself so you would be able to make conscious choice"? Just like Yushchenko did referring to eastern Ukrainians. Yanukovich goes to some safe place with safe people instead, where nobody could isolate him and thus he saves some time for himself. People, look what we see now - I counted, we have 2 resignations average each day. What happened to Yanukovuch's HQ? Where's Tigipko? What happened to National Bank, where is the money? Where are those raised pensoins from Aval Bank?!? Too many questions to doubt that there weren't any violations. Governmental channels (1+1) APOLOGIZE on air for those false news they have been given. And when some western mass media say that they observed orange color in clothes of some public people before the elections and those media claim it is the violation of the law I advise them to find some more correct translation of Ukrainian law or to be more attentive. In this case they would not find any line that prohibits any color at any time during the elections. Babies, if we go this way, we should have taken off plenty of road signs (white-blue, Yanukovich's colors), sue all taxi drivers and brake every car wink (orange-black colors)! So, why didn't anybody sue the Orange Company yet?

Now after re-elections/whatever when Yushchenko become the President (I am deeply convinced this will happen) eastern Ukrainians will feel themselves betrayed, they will search for mistakes in Yushchenko's activity, they will look only for Nazi motives in his politics. Kuchma and Putin have torn Ukraine on pieces. They have cut it through cities and families just like it happen with Kharkiv when they OFFICIALLY divided the Independence Square in two parts; like it happen with my family when my mom calls and I hear that she's almost crying and dad is preventing her from speaking with me because he's afraid for her heart. I am so deeply sorry for Ukrainians and for my country.  

PS. Once upon a time the chief manager of my firm - an external student of Kharkiv University of Domestic Affairs - was filling some application form.  In the "department" field he had to write "economy and entrepreneurship" (in Ukrainian). He's been asking me for three times to spell it for him and on the fourth time he yelled his head off for me to put it down for him so he would be able to write it correctly. The chief manager has got secondary school education and the founder of the firm is from the Party of Regions (candidate from the party is Yanukovich), who apparently is the head of the above mentioned University. The questions the chief manager was asked at entrance exam were - who the President of Ukraine is and who the head of the university is. This is not a joke as some people could guess. How do you think, why I know all those particularities? Because he BRAGS about them. He brags about his criminal connections. He wears a gun - he's got some document that he belongs to police structure, though legally he does not. He brags that the founder of the firm is the local politician comparing to which the Godfather was just a miserable dauber. He tells stories about "parties" where guys rape girls. I am tired to live with corruption and loutishness. Changing firm wouldn't change the essence. Do you see what I mean?

PPS. I showed this post to a friend of mine. He told me that i manipulate with facts that nobody knows andthis post fits http://www.livejournal.com/community/2004_vybory_ua/ more. I am sorry if I abused anybody's context sence, but this is what i feel those days and do not consider that the place for this post does really matter. thank you, and please feel free to ask any questions for explanations.


[ Parent ]

if you care about democracy in Ukraine... (2.37 / 8) (#46)
by muyuubyou on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 07:17:40 AM EST

...you can actually DO something about it, like sending some MONEY so these people can remain in the frozen streets of Kiev. Long live capitalism.

support Yushchenko and democracy in Ukraine - поддержи Ющенко и демократию в Украине

In US dollar$:

Correspondent bank:
CITIBANK,

  1. Wall Street, N.A.
  2. th Floor/Zone 1
New York, NY 10043 , USA
SWIFT: CITIUS33

Correspondent account: 36154589

Beneficiary bank:
JSB "DIAMANT BANK"
Ukraine, Kiev
SWIFT: DMBAUAUK

Beneficiary: All-Ukrainian non-governmental organization "OUR UKRAINE"
Ukraine, Kiev

Account: 2600330897.840

Payment details: Voluntary contribution

---------------------------------------

In EU €uro:

Correspondent bank:
COMMERZBANK AG,
60261 , Frankfurt-am-Main
Kaiserplatz, Germany
SWIFT: COBADEFF

Correspondent account: 400886740001

Beneficiary bank:
JSB "DIAMANT BANK"
Kiev, Ukraine
SWIFT: DMBAUAUK

Beneficiary: "All-Ukrainian non-governmental organization "OUR UKRAINE"
Ukraine, Kiev

Account: 2600330897.978

Payment details: Voluntary contribution

link in English (none / 0) (#47)
by muyuubyou on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 07:27:25 AM EST

Silly me, I didn't realize there was an English version:

Support Yushchenko and democracy in Ukraine
поддержи Ющенко и демократию в Украине
пiдтримай Ющенко та демократiю в Україні

(with a little help from a ukrainian, because I suck at it ;) )

[ Parent ]

Life in technicolor... (2.12 / 8) (#62)
by Vesperto on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 07:32:48 PM EST

Ya know, not everything's black 'n' white, there aren't the good and the bad, East and West and all of that. TV? In western countries surely tries to imply that the evil Russia-leaning candidate corrupted the ellection. Try eastern countries, maybe TV there tries to imply the evil western-leaning candidate corrupted the results. Do you think there's an absolute truth? What if both are corrupted? Oh, incidentaly, there are two pipelines in Ukraine.
_____________________________
If you disagree post, don't moderate.
Not a Premium User.
What if both are corrupted? (2.60 / 5) (#64)
by circletimessquare on Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 08:42:05 PM EST

but they are not, the russian leaning candidate enjoyed government dirty tricks: state sponsored media support, and massive election rigging

it doesn't compare to anything in the west

really

next question

oh, and btw, there is a pipeline running to your ass

(wtf is that supposed to signify... pipelines?! man you are stupid paranoid schizophrenic fuck)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

doesn't it (1.00 / 4) (#88)
by dudsen on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 08:54:00 AM EST

since the last two US elections rumors of the exeact same things that Yanukovic is acused of is atributet to the bush administration.
There is probably as musch indication of election fraud in the us as in ukraine.
Weather or not it actually has been going on in either of the two countries is not someting we know.

The intersting ting is that tho only elction that at being quistioned on the front page is the election i ukraine where the candidate opsing western influence  aperently won.
Bush din't hurt the big money so he's apper to be sae from acusations, where Yanukovic that are planing hurting the big money are more or less convicted in advance!
That seems funny to me and it smells like something other than pure respect for democracy.

All of this is speculation, all we have is an media that doesn't provide "the truth, the whole truth, and noting but the truth"
Try to look in any media today, apart from "nature" and similar magazines it's all made up of  comtery's and speculations, spiced up width bad statistics.


[ Parent ]

you... are... a... dumb... fuck... (2.60 / 5) (#94)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 02:31:30 PM EST

if the voting discrepancies in the us election in the WILDEST FANTASTIC SPECULATIONS of some are compared to the most conservative, proven, solidly understood dirty tricks in the ukraine, then the ukraine has ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more injustice going on

understand you dumb fuck?

additionally, you stupid retard, i would like to go to the demonstrators in tents freezing their ass off in kiev and tell them that what they are fighting for is a "sphere of western influence" and "us oil pipelines" and "big money" and none of it matters, as both sides are equally corrupt, and all your other brain dead retarded paranoid schizophrenic bullshit

capisce?

All of this is speculation, all we have is an media that doesn't provide "the truth, the whole truth, and noting but the truth"
Try to look in any media today, apart from "nature" and similar magazines it's all made up of  comtery's and speculations, spiced up width bad statistics.

yes, it is all speculation, and it comes straight from your fucking ass, as if dozens of media outlets from various countries and ideologies agreeing with the vast majority of observations about what kind of injustice is going on in the ukraine is somehow doubtable by the likes of a braindead fuck like you

do you know how much respect i have for someone as blind and dumb as you?

don't fucking ask, it's not a pretty answer


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

fact pleese?. (none / 0) (#155)
by dudsen on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 06:22:53 PM EST

Pleese cut that crap out it's 100% pure bullshit and it's also the oldest the book just call your oponent stupid, it's so damn easy.

Yes of cause their is no media bias and the us election's were simply the purest pure and the ukrainien electioun turned an clear victory by at least 80% into an 39% to 40% because of fraud.
We bost know that that's not the case, it was close and their pobably was used dirty tricks in both elections whether or not those dirty tricks went in to actual fraud is unknown.

And of cause when the western world of diferent brands of the same ideology agrees on something, it can't be coloured throug eye's of ideology or self interest thats clear.

You do know that at least some people in ukraine did vote for the guy that won by official numbers, is it totally unthinkable that that tine fraction of the total population that are prtesting actually is representing the minority?
What are the russian media saying about the election?

By the way jyst an couple of examples
How many people are or has been demonstrating, and how acurate are the numbers.
I have seen 100.000 not that grat an number in an country with 47 million, hell there are more participants, do you got other numbers?
Who is claiming an unfair election what UN body or international respected NGO has put their names behind claims of fraud and who hasn't.

I don't think that there was't fraud in the ukraine elections and i do beleave that there are somthing deaply rotten in the US election process, i just wonder wry the media is't actually reaseaching anything?

Pleese prove me worng, make me wiser, but please restrain from those damn autorian argument's.

And by the way im not insulted im actually flatted that my post was offensive enough to make you pour out an burst of bullshit, when someone turn to that sort of arguement's it usually means that they are reacting in insincts not knowledge.

[ Parent ]

Fact (3.00 / 2) (#156)
by Oblom on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 08:44:29 PM EST

What are the russian media saying about the election?
It's depends upon what media will you look. The one that is controlled by govermant says that elections were kosher and that Yanukovich wone elections by a big margin (ooops, it's actually what speaker of russian parlament says). The opposition media says that elections were forged (and shows reports and vitnesses which prove it) and hopes that revolution will hit Russia too in the next few years.

How many people are or has been demonstrating, and how acurate are the numbers. I have seen 100.000 not that grat an number in an country with 47 million, hell there are more participants, do you got other numbers?
Actually there was like 500.000 in Kyiv and god knows how many more in other cities. Big chunks of Ukraine announced that they don't believe official results of elections. Also national bank, SBU (secret service), police and lot's of other goverment and not goverment ogranisations issued statements of support to opposition.

Today there was made phone poll and 30% of population said that they are ready to get out to streets to protest and 9% said that they are ready to go to Kyiv to protest.

I don't think that there was't fraud in the ukraine elections and i do beleave that there are somtehing deaely rotten in the US election process, i just wonder wry the media is't actually reaseaching anything?
Maybe it doesn't care ? Or maybe nobody cares enought for media to care about it ? Somobody wrote on site today "democracy is not a matter of course when you have it, but must be struggled for continuously, not to loose it again. The best way to preserve democracy, is by having a free press, which will be a watch dog to prevent the appearance of new dictatorships and manipulation". So maybe US is so used to democracy that nobody things that something can happen to it so nobody researching anything ? Or maybe it's just one big conspiracy ?

[ Parent ]
how do you devote the time (none / 0) (#158)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 09:01:45 AM EST

to give someone facts who you don't respect because they have proven themselves unable or unwilling to incorporate the most patently obvious of the situation

you don't reason with children, you spank them

understand, asshole?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I've seen better trolls. <nt> (none / 1) (#99)
by Vesperto on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 06:04:31 PM EST


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[ Parent ]
hey asshole (3.00 / 3) (#111)
by circletimessquare on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 02:21:41 AM EST

go to kiev and tell the people in tents freezing their ass off there that all they are fighting for are western oil interests

go ahead, try it

i'm a troll? fine

better that than a brain dead propagandized fuck like you

you've latched onto some bullshit conspiracy theory bullshit straight from a b-level hollywood movie: "western oil interests explains everything that goes on in the world"

and you actually think the crap that spews from your mouth based on that schizophrenic bullshit is interesting

you really are a blind useless stupid fuck


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Hey, cts (3.00 / 3) (#120)
by rusty on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 07:05:12 PM EST

Go outside, take a walk. Calm down a little bit. Please.

Your passion for the subject is refreshing, but you can make your point without personally insulting everyone you reply to.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

dude (none / 0) (#130)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 02:53:10 AM EST

k5 is my therapy

i am completely cognizant of the level of vitriole i unleash in my comments, i am 100% in control of it... but i am MAXIMIZING IT, not minimizing it

doing so allows me to deal with people like the author of the comment i am responding to in real life without bringing out a tire iron and getting my ass in prison

k5 is catharsis for me... i unload the mr. hyde side of my personality here, so i am a quite agreeable dr. jekyll in real life, where my reactions actually matter: you would not recognize me in real life at all based on my scritti politi here

it does me no good to ignore or hide my dark side- that would allow it to grow and fester, so i simply jettison it online, so that in real life i am quite calm and agreeable and charming

yes, i have a personality problem, but give me credit for dealing with my problem socially and constructively

yes, constructively: you'll find a lot of people here on k5 know exactly who and what i am and find me quite amusing, that my taking out of mental garbage is entertaining

and my lightning rod of overemotional comments probably, in the end, does more for the health of k5 than some cold, impassionate discourse, no?

so please, don't try to distill chamber music from my howard stern side

and thank you for creating my source of online therapy (just look at my number of comments! geez! ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Suggestion (none / 1) (#140)
by rusty on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 10:20:27 AM EST

Instead of "you are the stupidest fucking person I've ever seen," try "that's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard." You see the difference?

K5 is not here to be your therapy. You don't get to behave any way you please. Sorry.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

well since you run the damn place (none / 0) (#146)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 11:40:29 AM EST

there's not much i can say about that!

lol ;-P

so i'll reason with you instead:

i think you will find that the more you attempt to tame online behavior, the more you simply remove online behavior

i think that, much like movies and television and videogames are outlets of antisocial behavior (pornography, violence, etc.), so the internet is as well

and this is not a bad thing, on the contrary: this in fact serves a valuable social purpose... that which is jettisoned asocially between sticky magazine sheets is not jettisoned asocially on real women, that which is fired on screen in hatred and violence is not fired in real life on real people

it's an old debate: does media curtail bad behavior, catharsis-style, or enhance asocial behavior?

no guess as to which side i come down on that old debate... the question is, which side do you?

see, the internet is still very young, and pioneers like yourself go about what they do with great optimism: the internet will be a tool that will foster a great commons of ideas and debate

except that, that debate hasn't exactly been so antiseptic: the internet troll is ubiquitous... the anonymous nature of the internet allows for human beings to express themselves in ways they would never dare in real life

and so, what do you do with the troll? do you remove him? kill him?

but then you find that every means at your disposal to remove him only removes that which is good about the internet commons too

see the problem? hmmm...

but, within that problem is also an insight into what is really going on with the internet, beyond any of our control, as it evolves on its own path

and in a good way, to a positive effect no one desired, but they got anyway, the great internet commons is also, or perhaps was meant to be, a forum for antisocial expression, so that real life becomes more liveable for us all

look man: when television first appeared, it was hailed as a great educational tool

pretty funny huh?

but simply because the early pioneers in a media, like yourself, did not see the innovation they loved take the shape they desired it to, does not mean that it doesn't serve a valuable purpose anyways

it just serves a purpose that no one could have imagined

and that is, in fact, part of the beauty of life

so, i assert to you rusty: do not attempt to control what you cannot, let the internet evolve to the way it was meant to be, of which your little experiment is an important part of i might add, and understand that antiseptic polite debate is about as possible here or anywhere else as sunlight streaming from my ass!

lol ;-P

xoxoxoxoxoxox

for more edification on my point, try my diary:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/9/23035/70778

(yes i know, it's a cut and paste of a new york times article, something i've gotten in trouble about before, but you'll notice that the original story on the nyt site is gone, which is a little comment in and of itself right there about my ability to communicate... but if you read the text of the story, you'll find exactly what i am saying to be evident about channel 2 as well)

i think if you really examine what i am trying to say, you'll agree with me, if it hasn't occured to you already, that something deeper is going on here and elsewhere on the web, like channel 2, beyond any of the optimistic web pioneer's control, that is still a good thing, despite it not being of the form they desired

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Partly (none / 1) (#150)
by rusty on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 11:54:02 AM EST

You're conflating what happens here with what happens on the internet as a whole. I don't control the whole internet, and I couldn't care less how the rest of it evolves. It'll do what it'll do, as, to some extent, it will here.

I think that this media can be all of the things you describe, at once. We don't have to choose globally between one or the other. But here, in this place, I would prefer that you reserve your insults for stupid ideas, not stupid people. It's a little overboard to say I'm trying to make the place antiseptic, isn't it? See my example above. I would just rather not let you drive out everyone who isn't here for, as you put it, "therapy."

I'm glad arguing here is cathartic for you. It is part of what the place is about. Go on with your bad self. I'm just saying tone down the personal stuff slightly. You don't know the people you're yelling at here -- you only know what they've said here. So if you think what they said was fucking stupid, then you go ahead and tell them that. But you don't know that they are fucking stupid, so don't assume they are.

That's all I'm saying. Asshole. ;-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

it's hard to argue with that (none / 1) (#152)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 12:17:43 PM EST

as you aptly demonstrate, an even handed tone and a forgiving nature can convince someone of anything

;-)

except that, you really have to admit: some of the posts here can only come from someone who is genuinely deluded

i mean your point that you can't draw a personal judgment of someone based on what they post here, and for most posts, that's 100% true

but, by the same token, there actually are some posts you can find here, by the very nature of their content, that if you think about what is actually said, it becomes inescapable that anyone who would say or wonder some of things you might find in a given post is genuinely stupid

i'm not talking snobbery here, i'm talking a fair, even-handed appraisal of what is said, and a fair, even-handed conclusion of the mind who would create such a thought

and then you wonder: what kind of mind can create such drivel? and then you find that that part of the mental machinery that allows these delusions to continue is a personality factor that avoids brutal honesty, that says that politeness must be maintained, and if that politeness is breached, then the discussion must end... even if the truth about some issues only lies in the realm of what is not polite

brittle souls create brittle ideas, and protect them with brittle standards of human interaction

for example: the poster here who implies that what is going on in the streets of kiev is about western oil pipelines

are you going to say i should respect that person's opinion and reply impartially and cooly to them? that i shouldn't attack them personally?

well, i will suggest in kind that with some people, respecting them personally actually does them a disservice

that they need a slap across the face, a strong "wake the fuck up!" that responding to them dispassionately, and not attacking them personally leads them to continue in a mode of thinking that is unacceptable: unacceptable to their own ability to deal with the world effectively

there are debates in this world that cannot come to fruition without attacking the actor themselves, and some deeply help delusions about how the world works

and i always thought that brutal honesty should not be avoided out of a need to maintain decorum

and in fact, much more is gained through brutal honesty

and if the anonymous internet is not the place for exactly that, i don't what is

look: most people don't want to be insulted

but those who don't want to be insulted the most, are those with the most brittle and cognitively dishonest or unworkable ways of thinking

and for you to pretend that you even want those people as part of your site, is unfathomable

those who would complain to you the most about my behavior i would assert to you are exactly the sort of people you want least on your site and who would ruin the life and health of your site the most

in your quest to make kuro5hin the best it is, do not make your master those personalities here who would complain the most about standards of behavior: in them is found nothing but stagnation and death of kuro5hin

believe that


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I agree with some of what you say. (none / 1) (#100)
by Stoutlimb on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 06:37:46 PM EST

I agree with just some of what you say. Overall though, I think circletimessquare's opinion of you is quite accurate though. I also think there's at least one pipeline running through your ass. That being said, you're right that there are no good and bad sides. The people in the east, and the people in the west, are good people. I believe most of them want a prosperous and happy Ukraine. It's vitally important that the people in the Orange Revolution embrace anyone who voted for Yanukovich. By all reports, they are making every attempt humanly possible to do this, and still stand up for their democratic rights at the same time. There is no violence, and there is a great atmosphere of love and understanding underlying this revolution. The people in the east, even by conserviative estimates, were widely duped into voting for Yanukovich. Others were forced. Others don't exist, but somehow their vote does. If there was anything even remotely like fairly balanced election coverage, Yuschenko would have won by far more votes than he did. (Yes, I believe Yuschenko did get the majority of valid votes.) The people in the east are not the enemy. Corruption, Kuchma, and Yanukovich are the enemy. Yanukovich is a criminal who used his connections to get into office anyways, as it's illegal for convicted criminals to become president. He was convicted of rape and armed robbery. Don't believe me? Look it up. And yes, you do have a pipeline through your ass.

[ Parent ]
about yushchenko's poisoning (2.00 / 6) (#66)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 12:42:45 AM EST

i couldn't help, when seeing his bluish pallor, of being reminded of this montana politician

turns out, the guy was a quack medicine aficionado (and a libertarian too: which makes 100% sense, since libertarianism is the same kind of quackery)

he drank so much collodial silver, it turned him blue-grey

the condition is called argyria

here is a picture which pretty much is an exact duplicate of the ashen, bluish effects yushchenko seems to have

here is an extreme case- the guy turned himself into the tin man! (or a golem, to keep with the eastern european theme)

but again, more mild sufferer's develop an ashen, bluish tinged appearance, like yushchenko

more info

the bad news if this is what yushchenko has?

the effect is permanent, say good bye to his good looks

the good news?

it's not fatal

so add this to the rumor mill: he could have been poisoned on purpose because of the anti-charismatic effects, or it could be self-induced, ASSUMING yushchenko was into collodial silver as some sort of quack medical belief... either way, if yushchenko has argyria, then the poisoning had to take place over a period of time, not in one incident


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Not all the symptoms. (2.66 / 3) (#69)
by Stoutlimb on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 01:04:34 AM EST

How do you explain the horrible bumpiness of Yuschenko's face? It's far more than a change of colour.

[ Parent ]
good point, could be combo (nt) (none / 0) (#70)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 01:28:53 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
or you could just be utterly wrong [nt] (3.00 / 2) (#86)
by reklaw on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 07:45:41 AM EST


-
[ Parent ]
no shit sherlock nt (none / 0) (#87)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 08:24:36 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Ockham's Razor, (none / 1) (#123)
by skyknight on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 07:11:20 PM EST

bizatch.

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
you mean occam's razor (none / 0) (#132)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 03:07:16 AM EST

beezzayouch

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
haha, yeah (none / 1) (#138)
by skyknight on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 06:32:00 AM EST

cts: 1
skyknight: 7

Way to get on the board!

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
lol /nt (none / 0) (#122)
by skyknight on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 07:10:09 PM EST



It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
You might have half the story. (3.00 / 2) (#74)
by Apuleius on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 02:59:03 AM EST

First off, colloidal silver isn't snake oil. It does kill bacteria, and doctors do sometimes use it in desparate cases of antibiotic resistant infections (if you had to choose between getting smurfed and meeting your maker, you'd likely make the same choice). The quack thinking comes in the silly notion of taking antibacterials "just in case" when you aren't trying to fend off a pathogen. That's a stupid reason to take antibiotics, and a stupid reason to take colloidal silver. As for Yuschenko, if his doctors suspected he was poisoned with a biological weapon, they may have fed him colloidal silver. And it would account for his skin color, but not the lesions all over his face or his drooping eye.


There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. (The South Park chef)
[ Parent ]
You, sir, are an ass clown. (none / 0) (#121)
by skyknight on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 07:08:53 PM EST

Didn't anybody ever teach you that anecdotal evidence is often a poor basis for argument? You can only use anecdotes to disprove "for all x in N, F(x)" by showing that there exists some x within N such that F(x) is not true, or to prove that "there exists some x in N such that F(x)" by showing some x in n for which F(x) holds. You seem to think, however, that you can prove the former with an anecdote. Bad news: you're wrong. Go back to school, kid, and this time pay attention.

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
dude, it's just a fucking theory (none / 0) (#134)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 03:19:39 AM EST

i thought it, so i put it out there, so i am sorry for sharing

feel free to rip me a new asshole for doing that, but i really don't care if i am right or wrong, the idea just occured to me, so i wrote it

so calm the fuck down

asshole

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You should care if you are right or wrong. (none / 0) (#137)
by skyknight on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 06:30:59 AM EST

Otherwise, what are you trying to accomplish here on K5? Do you care little whether any given meme you are spreading is valid or bogus? That would seem to indicate a minimal sense of self-worth with respect to your posting on K5. You can do better than that. Don't cheapen yourself by being intellectually lazy. We've got plenty of that in the world already and don't need any more of it.

If you want to say something of the form "libertarians get it wrong because they think X which is demonstrably unworkable in context Y", then great, we can have an argument, but your blanket bashing is just lazy, and frankly, pathetic.



It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
well that's funny (none / 0) (#148)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 11:51:48 AM EST

because i do


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
One sided view - K5 bias (1.85 / 7) (#67)
by jdoeii on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 12:54:06 AM EST

After many years under the rule of the corrupted government ... a new hope for Ukraine ... Yushchenko which served as the Prime Minister in the past. Grrrreat. This is a perfect example of blindness and media bias. The government was corrupt, so the former head of that corrupt government is the new hope for Ukraine.

This is not an election between good and bad. This is an election between bad and worse. And I am not sure which one is worse. The election was rigged, true. It was rigged in favor of Yuschenko in the West, for Yanukovich in the East and South. But either one of the candidates won over 40% of the vote by any count. There is a lot of popular support for each candidate. Siding with one of them is like claiming that you, living in the UK or US know better what's right for Ukraine. Such position is as shortsighted as the introduction to this K5 article.

In those days Ukraine has become orange. That's untrue. Kiev has become orange, not Ukraine. Ukraine is not just Kiev and Lviv, it's also Donbass and Crimea, which are predominantly pro-Yanukovich.

This business is an internal Ukrainian affair. Ukrainians should decide for themselves who's good for them.



Ukraine is orange! (2.25 / 4) (#71)
by uvarchik on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 01:37:38 AM EST

This is a perfect example of blindness and media bias. The government was corrupt, so the former head of that corrupt government is the new hope for Ukraine.

First, this article represents the author's view of the situation and the author has the right to be subjective in evaluation. Second, I advise you to better browse the comments first and only then post. Indeed, which government you mean?:) Ukraine had the real kaleidoscope of them for 13 years of "independace", and it is hard for an initiated person to devide the advantages of one government and disadvantages of the other:)

This is not an election between good and bad. This is an election between bad and worse. And I am not sure which one is worse. The election was rigged, true. It was rigged in favor of Yuschenko in the West, for Yanukovich in the East and South.

This is old news man. The election between bad and worse were on October 31st and for some extend (but already much less) on November 30th (besides, I stress that `the choice between bad and worse' concept is inappropriate in applying to all Ukrainians). Now it is the real Orange Revolution, whether you agree or disagree with it. I am from Ukraine, I am from Donbass originally and now live in Kharkiv (eastern Ukraine), and I am not in establishment:).

Siding with one of them is like claiming that you, living in the UK or US know better what's right for Ukraine... This business is an internal Ukrainian affair. Ukrainians should decide for themselves who's good for them

Interesting, how you may make me decide who is right for me with your comments? You may only help people to better understand the situation, so nobody here forces anybody to make any decisions unless the freedom of speech in internet is considering the interference into domestic affairs.

[ Parent ]

Half of Ukraine is orange. The other half is blue (none / 1) (#109)
by jdoeii on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 01:18:08 AM EST

First, this article represents the author's view of the situation and the author has the right to be subjective in evaluation.

Sure. And my post represents my view, your post represents your view. What's your point?

I stress that `the choice between bad and worse' concept is inappropriate in applying to all Ukrainians

Then what exactly are you saying? Is it a choice between "bad and bad" or something? :-)

Interesting, how you may make me decide who is right for me with your comments?

Interesting, why do you think I want to make you do anything? The whole point of my post is to ask people outside of Ukraine to look at both sides of the conflict and let Ukrainians decide for themselves. Siding with one candidate is siding with half of the population against the other half.

You may only help people to better understand the situation, so nobody here forces anybody to make any decisions unless the freedom of speech in internet is considering the interference into domestic affairs.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you implying my post somehow reduces your right to free speech? How does it do it?

[ Parent ]
40% for Yanukovic? So lower the stakes .. (2.50 / 2) (#76)
by Highlander on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 04:07:48 AM EST

Well, first one doesn't know how many people in the east really voted for Yanukovic, since vote fraud and influencing voters(bribery, intimidation) was more harsh in the pro-Yanukovic areas. This issue also would have to be adressed if th east would vote on autonomy.

But, let's just assume that 40% for Yanukovic is correct.
So maybe it would be fair if Yushchenko made some concessions (he could ask for concessions in return) to adress the fears of the east?

This would lower the stakes and would make fair and peaceful elections much more feasible.

Moderation in moderation is a good thing.
[ Parent ]

"an election between bad and worse" (1.83 / 6) (#80)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 05:18:54 AM EST

this fallacy always bothered me

same with bush versus kerry, or any election: "an election between bad and worse", "a choice between the lesser of two evils", etc., blah blah blah

what is people's problems exactly with that?

do you ever actually think the candidates in ANY election ANYWHERE will jive 100% with your pov?

if you look at anyone long enough, not just political candidates, you can find something wrong with them

and with politicians, the stakes are so high, and the emotions run so deep, that minor crap suddenly becomes fodder for prima donna assholes: "he's not perfect so he sucks! why even vote?! oh life is so unfair!"

this is braindead idealism and it really bothers me

in democracy, FOREVER, you will only get the choice between bad and worse! FOREVER!

so shut the fuck up with that crap about "the lesser of two evils" will you you stupid brain dead fucks?

no one appeals to everyone 100%

and in fact, if you want to maximize your chance of winning any election there ever was and ever will be, the name of the game is to appeal to as many people as possible, which naturally means your message gets watered down and your appeal goes from strong, to a small few, to weak, to a larger majority

THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS

THAT's DEMOCRACY

and that negative aspect of democracy still makes democracy a LOT better than the much worse negative aspects of any other system of govt out there

why the FUCK do you idealistic twits not get that?

will you BRAINDEAD MOTHERFUCKERS PLEASE STOP WHINING ABOUT CANDIDATES BEING THE CHOICE BETWEEN TWO EVILS

it's not a useful observation, except if the observation you want to make is that you are an idealistic stupid child


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Perhaps... (2.00 / 2) (#89)
by Znork on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 11:03:58 AM EST

"why the FUCK do you idealistic twits not get that?"

... it's because you dont have a clue what you're talking about?

There are many election systems and democratic forms of government that are not subject to this particular form of flaw. Some of us are lucky enough to live in them.

I truly pity you if you cannot grasp that concept, because then you fail to understand the very essence of democracy and you havent known the freedom to choose someone to actually represent your interests.

Systems prone to two electable candidates only are just one candidate away from a dictatorship. And that does affect politics to a large extent. In rather negative ways.

[ Parent ]

ever heard of primary elections? [nt] (none / 0) (#91)
by emmons on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 02:13:23 PM EST



---
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]
Nope, never heard of them! (2.50 / 2) (#92)
by Cro Magnon on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 02:16:52 PM EST

Usually the good candidates get eliminated in the primaries, leaving us with the worst people from each party.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
exactly my point! (1.50 / 2) (#96)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 02:50:09 PM EST

you remove those with strong support from small groups

and wind up with those with weak support from large majorities...

in other words, THE FUCKER WHO ACTUALLY HAS A CHANCE TO ACTUALLY WIN

so yes, you weed out howard dean, the "good candidate" (according to a small percentage of the population)

and you get john kerry, the "worst candidate" (because he appeals to you weakly... but he also appeals weakly to a larger population of people who can ACTUALLY ELECT THE FUCKER)

guess what assholes: WELCOME TO THE FUCKING SIMPLE RULES OF POLITICS, you are all officially remedial morons in the back of the class

now get your heads out of your asses and come to realize that the root of your whiny, prima donna problems with politics and the two party system is HUMAN NATURE ITSELF

and if you change the two party system, or the voting rules, or what not YOU GET THE SAME BULLSHIT, or some other form of bullshit which makes the bullshit you were dealing with in the previous system look like golden sunshine!

get it?!

what is that saying?

the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence?

grow the fuck up and stop being such braindead childish idealists!

there is nothing wrong with being an idealist about something like justice and morality and progress

but there is something VERY wrong about being an idealist about how human nature works and how it plays out in simple politics!

and how it plays out in the politics of democratic country is 1,000x better than the alternatives!

jesus you fucks are stupid!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

wow (none / 1) (#128)
by emmons on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 01:27:25 AM EST

That's actually kinda what I was thinking, but I often try to be a tad more diplomatic in style.

What many people don't understand about democracy is that it's an exercise in comprimise and the leaders that we elect are a product of that. Generally nobody views them as perfect, but many people view them as "good enough." It's the only way to get >50% of a population to vote for one person.

---
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]

exactly (none / 1) (#131)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 03:05:00 AM EST

and in the end, the only people who don't understand that are the inexperienced, uneducated, naive idealists

and if you examin ethe whiny problems they have with the democratic process, you find, in the end, the same source of appeal hitler or marcos or saddam hussein had: the process is weak, what we need is a strong leader

in other words, the root of the feelings that people have with the democratic process is anti-democratic and pro-fascist

and some of them don't recognize that

and so in their blindness and purposefully or unporposefully evil words, i hate them and yell at them about it

and i think that emotional reaction does more to make an impression than some sort of clinical , impassionate dissection of how wrong they really are that owuld just make their eyes glaze over

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Emotional ranting (none / 1) (#142)
by Cro Magnon on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 10:38:51 AM EST

All your emotional rants accomplish is to convince people that you are a trollish idiot.

But you are right about one thing; we're not likely to get a "strong" leader. Even if one got elected, he'd be working in a system that is designed to work against strong leaders, and he'd either compromise, or be a lame duck. But it's still frustrating when, IMO, NEITHER of the main candidates are much good.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]

wtf?! lol (3.00 / 2) (#144)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 11:10:45 AM EST

"everything you say only convinces us you are a troll"

"however, what you just said makes a lot of sense"

BWAHAHAHAHA

oh man, if you are going to shoot me down, don't point the business end of your gun at your own face

thanks for the laugh

;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

NS (none / 0) (#145)
by Cro Magnon on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 11:32:00 AM EST

Your DELIVERY convinces us you're a troll! Occasionally you have some good points, but they get lost because of the point you have under your hat.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
i always thought (none / 1) (#147)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 11:50:14 AM EST

that honesty, even brutal honesty, is what is most important

i come here so i don't have to be as polite as i do in real life

so to comply with what you desire of me: to be more polite, than that would ruin my desire to come here

which may be your whole point anyway! but who gives a fuck? i understand your entire point you are trying to make, and i utterly disregard it


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Curses foiled again! NT (none / 1) (#151)
by Cro Magnon on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 12:13:59 PM EST


Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
or (none / 1) (#154)
by emmons on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 02:51:45 PM EST

If we got a stong leader (like we currently have), half of the country would hate him.

---
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]
It's more like 28 (3.00 / 3) (#93)
by Oblom on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 02:27:37 PM EST

In first tour of presidential elections in Ukraine there was 28 candidates

[ Parent ]
And... (none / 0) (#114)
by Znork on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 04:58:23 AM EST

... any winner takes all system has only one winner.

Too bad if he's a bad choice, and even worse if he's got actual power.

[ Parent ]

BWAHAHAHAHA (2.00 / 4) (#95)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 02:41:15 PM EST

in countries where there are more than two dominant political parties, the smaller parties play whore to the largest ones

that is, they do not maintain some sort of ideological purity an dinfuence that some would imagine, and are as empty and valueless as some imagine democrats and republicans would be

go ahead, ask germans about their green aprty: what the representatives of the green aprty do, is when the big parties deadlock, the big parties come courting the smaller parties, like the greens, to win a decision... the greens act like political brokers, whores for power, that make decisions that have nothing whatsoever to do with the agenda of the green party

go ahead, ask a german about their green party and have them confirm my point:

when you have more than two political parties, you simply have more political whores... in addition, when the big parties deadlock, suddenly smaller parties have a lot more influence

what are those smaller parties? greens? libertarians? some other progressive group you love dearly?

try communists, fascists, xenophobic racist nationalistic parties

in other words, you want your splinter parties? you'll get them, and it's not just the marijuana legalization parties, it's parties like france's le pen anti-immigrant, anti-jew racist party... in other words, all your idealistic dreams of progressive parties influence with two party system dissolved is COUNTERACTED BY THE FRINGE FUCKERS ON THE RIGHT

my point

YOU ARE A BRAINDEAD IDEALIST

when you remove a 2 party system, you don't change any of the political ugliness oyu hate so much, you just MOVE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE

how the hell can i be sure?

because it's POLITICS YOU FUCKING RETARD

YOU DON'T REMOVE POLITICS FROM POLITICS BY CHANGING SOME FUCKING MATHEMATICAL RULES OF THE GAME

you are trying to remove something from the equation of the two party system that makes the two party system ugly to you: THE FUCKING HUMAN BEINGS IN THE SYSTEM

all you wind up doing is shuffling the fucking human anture, in all it's ugliness aorund, and make no change at all!

get you brain dead moronic idealist child?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You should... (2.50 / 2) (#113)
by Znork on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 04:35:57 AM EST

... take some time and think this through, because you've fallen for the two-party propaganda. There are major advantages for anti-democratic elements and powerplayers in such systems, and they seem to have managed to trick you.

"in countries where there are more than two dominant political parties, the smaller parties play whore to the largest ones"

Of course they do, and the larger parties throw them a bone every now and then for support on other issues. It's politics.

The difference is that party internal politics are much more authoritarian, enabling minority issues to obtain a level of support vastly out of proportion to actual support within the population, by riding on the popularity of other issues of a party.

In a multi-party system, such an imbalance is unlikely to occur on any major issue, and it will be impossible to sustain it, as the voters will shift to a different party with the same fundamentals, but who vary on other issues.

Yes, you'll get lunatic fringe parties, but while they're a testament to the sad state of humanity, they have no chance of obtaining a majority support for the crazy-people issues, because despite the haggling and compromising that goes on, many issues end up outside of that.

In a two party system, when you vote a party into majority, their (and their supporters) crazy-people issues get majority support, even if they got voted into power for their economic policies.

It's a question of the shifting majorities on various issues, and detaching the issues from one another, and from any specific person or persons. It's a question of the ease by which few people can gain control of the legislative, executive and judicial majority. It's a question of leverage points and power concentration.

In a two party system, any group who wants to control certain issues have a very easy and stable target to influence.

In a multi-party system it's a whack-a-mole game, making it much harder to control.

[ Parent ]

positives and negatives (3.00 / 2) (#115)
by circletimessquare on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 05:32:08 AM EST

we seem to be rehashing bullshit gone over decades ago by real political scientists

so rather than reply to your positves and negatives with my positives and negatives, about which anyone knowledgable in this subject has already been put to sleep if they were reading this thread out of boredom over rehashing the tired old crap, i'll just link to authoritative list, and shut us both up, and go right to my REAL point, which you seemed to miss

my point is simple: the fucking rules of the game don't matter, the human beings in the game do

everything you hate about 2 party systems would not go away with multiparty, you'd just move the shit around

and anything negative you lose by divorcing yourself from 2 party is counteracted by something negative you gain with multiparty

so my point is simple: stop focusing on the mathematics of the system, as the mathemeatics of the system doesn't address the human beings in the system that are the source of what you detest

multiparty versus 2 party is a red herring: it's the fucking issues that matter

get it? so i am not fucking defending 2 party- go ahead, let's make the us multiparty I DON'T GIVE A FUCK

and if you did that? you'd find i was right all along: same shit, different system

do you fucking understand my point now?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

well yay for democracy (1.00 / 6) (#75)
by the77x42 on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 03:39:17 AM EST

both politicians basically suck? sound like any other countries we know about?


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

well yay for negativity (2.33 / 3) (#78)
by circletimessquare on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 05:09:21 AM EST

if you think they both suck, then why don't you shut the fuck up and go away so that those WHO ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THE ISSUE can discuss it

i mean, you care enough to post your brain dead crap, but not enough to actually care about the situation? then what the fuck is your point?

you are about as useful as a second asshole


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I think a second asshole would be quite useful. (none / 1) (#97)
by ghjm on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 03:49:11 PM EST

Your asshole serves a vital function. Without it, you would die. Considering this, a redundant backup system seems warranted.

It is left as an exercise to the reader whether this should be a cold or hot spare.

-Graham

[ Parent ]

reminds of a joke i heard (none / 1) (#110)
by circletimessquare on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 02:17:03 AM EST

Three engineers were having a debate at to what type of
engineering background God must have had in order to design
the magnificent human body.

One engineer said, "He must be a mechanical engineer. Who
else could design such an efficient respiratory system to
move air and sweat glands to cool the body!".

The second engineer responded, "No, I think God must have
been an electrical engineer. Only an electrical engineer
could have designed the brain and nervous system to transfer
electrical responses so effectively!"

Finally, the third engineer interrupts saying, "You're both
wrong. God has to be a civil engineer. Who else would run a
waste disposal lines right through the middle of a
recreational area!"

http://www.laughers.com/jokes/data/joke0694.htm

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

well it's interesting (none / 0) (#126)
by the77x42 on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 11:32:16 PM EST

there is a compelling trend in 1st world countries to focus attention on foreign disputes instead of fixing their problems at home. come on, the ukranian elections -- who really cares who gets elected when americans are living in a just as corrupt political climate?

okay, okay, so everyone accepts this, but then why doesn't anyone do anything about it? why is it i'm the one who should just shut the fuck up when that's basically what most americans do regarding their current situation.

looking at the ukraine is a nice escape from our problems, but, really, there are more pressing issues to be dealt with in our own countries.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]

you're fucking blind (2.25 / 4) (#133)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 03:17:34 AM EST

if you think the problems in the us are as bad as the problems in the ukraine

really, you're what is called stupid: you apparently do not have the intellect to look at the facts and compare and contrast and gauge the level of corruption going on

no really, the word that best suits your pov is: stupid, unintelligent

you are braindead, a propaganda victim, you don't matter, your thoughts are useless

because you lack the necessary mental faculties to be able to take the evidence before you, and properly compare and contrast and develop a feeling of perspective, scale, context... a skill most kindergarteners possess: "fred has 2 jelly beans and sally has 200 jelly beans so who has more jelly beans?"

the ukraine is orders of magnitude way more corrupt than the us: most ukranians would agree!

so wake the fuck up you blind propagandized fuck, the diarrhea that comes out of your mouth is useless, because you are genuinely stupid

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

i had a reply. (none / 0) (#161)
by the77x42 on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 02:52:33 AM EST

but i forgot it.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]
Just for fun (2.75 / 4) (#101)
by Oblom on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 09:32:55 PM EST

Viktor Yanukovych's wife (urgently evacuated from Kyiv yesterday) believes that American felt boots (valenky) and oranges injected with drugs are being given out at the gatherings at Maidan Nezalezhnosti in Kyiv (Independence Square. Place where most of the protests takes place and camp is located). After eating one orange people immediately reach out for another one. As result of this there is mass poisoning and people are getting avacuated into hospitals. She reported this at a meeting in Donetsk.
If somebody want to see, here is the clip captured from 1+1 channel: http://www.ljplus.ru/img/dvornin/ZHena.avi .

Article in "Voice of Donbuss" (east Ukraine) newpaper (scan is here): "Ah bitch, you support Yanukovich !" - screamed stranger and attacked the girl. Sergey wanted to protect her but cold steel of the knife went through his heart. This is the way that at the night of October 29 after concert of support of Victor Yanukovich was killed 18 years old student.
Next article descibes how opposition supporter hitted almost till death WW II invalid who supports Yanukovich. Later into the room in hospital where invalid was recovering was trown stone with note: "You can't hide from us! We will find you"
The one after is about 4 guys who was brought to Kyiv by "Pora" ( students opposition movement ) at summer in order to participate in opposition gathering and create disturbance during the election at poll stations. Allegendly they was promised to be paid 30 hryvnas per day but still weren't paid.
- "To what other methods opposition politicians are ready in second tour of elections it's still unknown. There was no promised bloody revolutions yet but instead of this we saw bribes to poll station commisions and flascification of election documents. Unfortunatly we will see orange color in criminal news more then once..."

Next article claims that opposition activists burn down church in Zakarapat'je. Those activist came from Lviv in order to "help to local residents to place their votes to the right candidate". Also describes who how local opposition parlametary has ties with a local mafia which helps those activists in their "work"

On the right there is a bunch of insults "written" by people from west about people of the east. Author of the article sum it up like this: "So, how do you like it ? Are you shocked ? Are you insulted ? How can we fight back to this insults ? How we will answer ? With our word at November 21st ! Lets make all Ukraine hear voice of Donbuss"

It's interesting to note that there is no writes name on any of those articles.

Next one: "Yuschenko: give money" there is the words one sign that people hold (notice how amaturely was faked the writing on the photo). The article claims that people which participate in opposition meetings was paid 200hryvnas per day before and now only 10 so they are outraged.


Questions ?

You want a violent revolution? (none / 0) (#136)
by RaveWar on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 06:08:36 AM EST

Thats where these word of mouth reports of druggings and violence will end. People should be trying to calm down the situation, not give airtime to this sort of stuff.
We don't need freedom. We don't need love.
We want Superpower, Ultraviolence.
[ Parent ]
Ah ? (none / 0) (#139)
by Oblom on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 06:32:12 AM EST

Below (or is it above ?) I and some other people claimed that south-east Ukraine is fed with lies and propaganda via mass media. Here I just gave some examples of it.

[ Parent ]
One standard for freedom lovers one for terrorists (1.62 / 8) (#102)
by Wulfius on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 10:39:24 PM EST

There is an article on SALON that if the elections in OHIO were judged with the same standard as those in Ukraine, the US election of President Bush would too be 'Stolen'.

In essence this is a conflict between WEST and the EAST. Lets not kid ourselves. The US is using this as an opportunity to get a NUCLEAR POWER under its belt.

Still, it is too much too hope that a FOXNEWS news reader will suddenly develop journalistic ethics and scream "ITS ALL A PACK OF LIES! WE ARE TELLING YOU LIES!" like that Ukrainian deaf news translator woman.

.

---
"We must believe in free will, we have no choice."
http://wulfspawprints.blogspot.com/ - Not a journal dammit!

News at 11... (3.00 / 4) (#103)
by Oblom on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 10:55:58 PM EST

... Ukraine has no nuclear weapons !
For those who missed it, go get updated.

A popular joke in Ukraine/Russia those days:
John Kerry sits at home, watching football on tv. His wife approaching and changing station to 5th Ukranian channel and says: "You idiot, better watch what you should have done !"



[ Parent ]
True - But. (none / 1) (#105)
by Wulfius on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 11:24:49 PM EST

Chernobyl for one is in Ukraine.

If one is to believe the countries opposing other countries who are striving for Nuclear power stations, all one needs for to build a nuclear bomb is an old coffee tin, a piece of string and a nuclear power station.

.

---
"We must believe in free will, we have no choice."
http://wulfspawprints.blogspot.com/ - Not a journal dammit!
[ Parent ]

I can only say (3.00 / 4) (#106)
by Oblom on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 11:38:31 PM EST

I hope that in the future Ukraine beside being synonym for Chernobyl will be remembered for it's democratic revolution.

[ Parent ]
Not really (3.00 / 2) (#107)
by jeremyn on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 11:58:08 PM EST

You need either highly enriched uranium or plutonium to create a nuclear bomb. Countries like Iran want to keep their centrifuges out of sight, because they want their programs to enrich uranium (not just to low U-235 content (LEU) such as <5% neccesary for efficient plant operation but to the much higher levels needed for a bomb) to progress without interference, similar to South Africa or the Iraqi program prior to the Gulf War. For plutonium, you need to extract the uranium fuel rods from the nuclear reactor at the correct time so that uranium has been transformed into plutonium and then get the right plutonium isotope (Pu-239, after about a year this is most plentiful rather than Pu-240) to create the bomb. Other materials are necessary and are monitored for this reason, we'd know if you were after them. Bomb designs are easy to procure after the fall of the USSR, Pakistan and Chinas nuclear scientists being the major culprits here.

Legitimate nuclear power programs use LEU or uranium from naturally U-235 rich mining fields, and are fully monitored by the IAEA. Used fuel rods are extracted and reprocessed by European or US programs. Ukraine fits these requirements. To really be a danger you also have to be a aggressive state, especially with terrorist links. Other countries do, and this naturally makes the US government angry because they are threats.

[ Parent ]

Not the same (none / 0) (#108)
by uvarchik on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 01:04:53 AM EST

Nuclear weapon is not the same as nuclear power station.

[ Parent ]
Not so. (none / 0) (#117)
by aphrael on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 03:18:28 PM EST

Two of the things we've seen in Ukraine that weren't in Ohio are precincts with 98% turnout and absentee ballots being collected by employers.

[ Parent ]
Well (none / 0) (#125)
by jeremyn on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 09:34:52 PM EST

I believe there was one county in Ohio which had greater than 100% voter registration. Guess which party got the most new registrations there- it certainly wasn't the one whose name begins with an R.

[ Parent ]
What's your source, please? (none / 0) (#149)
by aphrael on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 11:52:36 AM EST



[ Parent ]
124% in one Ohio precinct (none / 0) (#164)
by jrumney on Mon Dec 06, 2004 at 04:17:37 PM EST

and there were apparently other precincts in the same county reporting >100%.

Wyoming also had a 106% turnout of registered voters.

[ Parent ]

Please enter a subject for your comment (none / 0) (#165)
by dollyknot on Mon Dec 06, 2004 at 04:33:45 PM EST

?/
They call it an elephant's trunk, whereas it is in fact an elephant's nose - a nose by any other name would smell as sweetly.
[ Parent ]
An Orange Revolution....... (1.00 / 5) (#104)
by kadambaridevarajan on Tue Nov 30, 2004 at 10:59:27 PM EST

The insight into the lows (....and highs) of the Ukrainian elections was factual but the grammatical errors run in dozens! For H*****'s sake, this is front-page material!

maybe because (2.00 / 3) (#112)
by circletimessquare on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 02:27:30 AM EST

the insights of the actual ukranians there (like the author... hmm, do they speak english in the ukraine? hmmm...) is about, gee i dunno, FUCKING WAY MORE IMPORTANT than the gripes of some fucking useless grammar nazi like yourself?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Heh (none / 1) (#118)
by strlen on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 05:50:08 PM EST

Uhm, I think his English is far better than your Russian or Ukranian.

--
[T]he strongest man in the world is he who stands most alone. - Henrik Ibsen.
[ Parent ]
Nas bahato! Nas ne podolaty! <nt> (1.50 / 2) (#119)
by aphrael on Wed Dec 01, 2004 at 05:58:00 PM EST



look at the guy (2.50 / 2) (#135)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 04:36:11 AM EST

look at his appearance

and tell me that isn't argyria

i know, i know, i'm the first to bash conspiracy theories here, but come on, there has to be an explanation for his appearance... what is it?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Yushenko looks changed at one (none / 0) (#157)
by countdown on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 04:41:17 AM EST

Does this 'Argyria' happens in a day or two? (I still don't know it is really is)

[ Parent ]
maybe he saw a picture of your boyfriend. oooooh (none / 0) (#162)
by the77x42 on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 02:56:32 AM EST




"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

[ Parent ]
Ukrainian chess (2.33 / 6) (#153)
by dollyknot on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 01:21:12 PM EST

One thing that does not seem to get mentioned in all the media furore about events in the Ukraine, is that the Ukraine won the last chess Olympiad, a chess Olympiad occurs every two years and nearly all countries send a team. America came forth, results here this happened a couple of months ago.

Of interest, is the information as to where the American male chess team were born.

Onischuk born Ukraine

Kaidanov born Ukraine

Novikov born Ukraine

Goldin born Novosibirsk, Russia.

Shabalov born Latvia

Gulko born East Germany

England came thirtieth :( but at least all our player were English born and bred. England came 7th last Olympiad and America came 41st

One might come to the conclusion this is all a bit off topic I say no, chess is a very international affair and has been so, for many a year before the internet was even thought of. Chess is an intellectual sport not a game, one could state that the term 'game' and 'sport' were interchangable not so, 'game' and 'sport' are fuzzy catagories, the difference being the amount of luck involved. There is nearly absolutely no luck involved in chess, unlike backgammon, poker, monoply, or bad referee decisions in team ball games, like football.

The ability to play chess at a GM (Grandmaster) level is very rare, there are probably less than a 1000 GMs in the world, Fide's database has 56931 registered chess players, there are millions of players world wide, who play in chess clubs, who are not on fide's rating list. To get on fide's list you have to be a 'Fide Master' or an 'International Master' or if you are the very best, of the best, a 'Grandmaster'.

I think the events happening in the Ukraine, are potentially very dangerous, with all kinds of ideological fault lines opening up. My first thought was that it would be the old cold war ideology writ anew, but no I fear its worse, not USSR vs America, but Europe versus America.

The price of fuel at the pump in the UK, is around double what it is at the pump in the USA.

And the USA imports about half of its oil and the Dollar has been falling like a stone, China is holding around 500 thousand million Dollars desperately trying to prop up the Dollar, knowing the chaos that will ensue when the American nation will finally have to 'bite the bullet' and go on a financial diet. You can fool some of the people some of the time, you can fool some of the people, all of the time, you cannot however fool all of the people all of the time.

An old adage in common law is: That not only must justice be done - it must be seen to be done. I would have thought this would be especially relevent in terms of elections. I find it totaly incomprehensible, that each state in America can have its own election procedures and this is from a country that proports to teach the world about democracy. I also find it incomprehensible, that the diebold machines were closed source, therefore making the process of verifying the count impossible.

The thing that scares me, is that the American oligarcy, would like to see trouble happen in the Ukraine. My hope is a nation that could produce so many fine chess players, would have the intelligence to have a new election that is properly verifiable, free and fair.

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried. -Winston Churchill.


They call it an elephant's trunk, whereas it is in fact an elephant's nose - a nose by any other name would smell as sweetly.

The real cause of distress (1.75 / 4) (#159)
by QueenOfEngland on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 02:46:17 PM EST

We note with some amusement the difficulty that the people of the Ukraine are having determining the cause of the problem. It appears to us that the populations which support the prime minister are heavily concentrated in those regions of the land which were part of the Russian Empire and its predecessor, the Grand Duchy of Moscow; while the populations which support the other candidate are heavily concentrated in those regions of the land which were part of the Commonwealth of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. It should be clear to all that the twin sources of this travesty lie in the misguided use of elections to determine national leadership, and the monstrous marriage of the Lithuanian population with the Russian.

We call for the restoration of the Polish-Lithuanian union, in its historic borders, forthwith. Our Romanov, Hapsburg, and Hohenzollern cousins made a mistake in dismantling it, and its restoration is the best way to fulfill the aspirations of the people of Kiev and Lviv.

The only problem is (none / 0) (#160)
by Anonymous Hiro on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 12:48:30 AM EST

If the people actually started killing each other over these two.

If they refuse to kill each other over these two, then there won't be a big problem no matter what these two say.

Just because you have a gun and your superior says kill your fellow citizens doesn't mean you should.

Don't think "If I don't do it someone else will anyway". At least you're not the one doing it, and there's a chance the rest of the sheeple may follow your example.


MLP (none / 0) (#163)
by dollyknot on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 10:35:20 AM EST

Came across this and thought it was relevant click

I'm also interested in Wikinews and K5 views of it.


They call it an elephant's trunk, whereas it is in fact an elephant's nose - a nose by any other name would smell as sweetly.

Poison Substance Identified! (none / 0) (#166)
by datentod on Mon Dec 20, 2004 at 09:07:12 AM EST

Just read here: UkrainianToronto.com Poison substance identified - 2,3,7,8 Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin, or 2,3,7,8 -- TCDD The most cancerous substance there is!

Yuschenko is the president of Ukraine! (none / 0) (#167)
by orange ann on Sun Jan 23, 2005 at 05:49:58 AM EST

Yes! More infore here!
yes, Freedom!
Orange Revolution | 166 comments (154 topical, 12 editorial, 0 hidden)
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