Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
Three Years Since

By circletimessquare in Op-Ed
Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 03:42:07 PM EST
Tags: Politics (all tags)
Politics

I left work on September 10th at 9:00 PM. An hour before, my coworker was getting nervous. She was leaving on a trip to Italy on the 12th and wanted to meet me at 8:30 AM on the 11th to go over what projects of hers I needed to steer in her absence. I rolled my eyes and complained that no one schedules meetings at 8:30 in the morning, and convinced her to postpone the meeting to 10:00 AM.


I remember secretly scheming at that moment to get a little extra sleep the next day since #1, I was at work so late as it was already, and #2, why show up at work at 9:00 AM when I really wouldn't be able to get myself absorbed into anything productive or worthwhile, since I had a meeting in an hour at 10:00.

So I would show up at 9:30 AM I decided, maybe even 9:45... get an extra hour of shuteye. Good plan.

Leaving the building that Monday night, I glanced across the plaza in the darkness towards a lone guitarist playing a mournful tune. I couldn't locate him visually, so I instead directed my gaze up and beyond the plaza, at them... up towards the sky, and away. And that is the last I ever saw of them.

I don't have to tell you where I used to work, or what year this was.

I never made it into work the next day. My coworker never went to Italy. There was no airplane that would take her there, or anyone else anywhere else for that matter (unless your last name was Bin Laden and you were impositioned by being in the USA at that time... then the current administration was happy to fly you out of the country). I lost four computers and two years of code. But compared to what other people lost, I lost nothing.

Two months later, a week before Thanksgiving in November, after my employer had shuffled me around various floors in unrelated departments in another office building unsure of what to do with me, I was fired. But in relation to what was really lost, by other families, as a city, as a nation, as a world, I still felt, and still do feel, like I really lost nothing.

A year later, I made my first post on kuro5hin in a heated argument about the possibility of waging war on Iraq. Two years later, I wrote this story. Three years since, after viewing the RNC and listening to the heated rhetoric inside Madison Square Garden on the television, and listening to the heated rhetoric outside on the streets in person... after reflecting on 1,000 lives lost in Iraq by the US armed forces... after recoiling from the repugnant attack on the children of an Ossetian school... after hearing of yet another attack by Jemaah Islamiyah in Indonesia, I am confronted by how much September 11th 2001 has changed me and this world.

I hope that people might use this little story of mine to vent about recent terror-related events in the world on this anniversary of September 11th, 2001. Or share with us recollections of yours from that day. Rant against Punitive Liberals. Rant against Warmongering Conservatives. Rant against American Imperialism. Rant against Terrorist Scumbags. Rant against John Kerry. Rant against George Bush. Whatever you do, rant. Get it out there.

This is not to say that either the conduct of war, or the prevailing attitude towards it, has become less bloodthirsty or more chivalrous. On the contrary, war hysteria is continuous and universal in all countries, and such acts as raping, looting, the slaughter of children, the reduction of whole populations to slavery, and reprisals against prisoners which extend even to boiling and burying alive, are looked upon as normal, and, when they are committed by one's own side and not by the enemy, meritorious. But in a physical sense war involves very small numbers of people, mostly highly-trained specialists, and causes comparatively few casualties. The fighting, when there is any, takes place on the vague frontiers whose whereabouts the average man can only guess at, or round the Floating Fortresses which guard strategic spots on the sea lanes. In the centres of civilization war means no more than a continuous shortage of consumption goods, and the occasional crash of a rocket bomb which may cause a few scores of deaths. War has in fact changed its character. More exactly, the reasons for which war is waged have changed in their order of importance. Motives which were already present to some small extent in the great wars of the early twentieth century have now become dominant and are consciously recognized and acted upon.

Chapter 9, '1984', George Orwell

Three years after Sept. 11, too many people have become experts at averting their eyes. If you look at the editorials and public pronouncements made in response to Beslan, you see that they glide over the perpetrators of this act and search for more conventional, more easily comprehensible targets for their rage.

...

They're still victims of the delusion that Paul Berman diagnosed after Sept. 11: "It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable."

This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.

'Cult of Death', the New York Times, David Brooks, September 7th

Rage on world. You will get your answers. You will solve your problems. But remember, we are still alive, while so many have died that didn't have to.

And that is what drives our anger, and that is what fuels our fear, and that is what fires our loathing. Let us use these emotions constructively, and put an end to the era of large-scale, interconnected, global terrorism that we unfortunately find ourselves in today.

Remember the dead who did not have to die.

Protect the living that need not suffer for crimes they did not commit.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Related Links
o Kuro5hin
o happy to fly you out of the country
o this story
o heated rhetoric
o heated rhetoric [2]
o 1,000 lives lost
o the children
o another attack
o Chapter 9, '1984', George Orwell
o 'Cult of Death', the New York Times, David Brooks, September 7th
o Also by circletimessquare


Display: Sort:
Three Years Since | 154 comments (105 topical, 49 editorial, 5 hidden)
-1, will the whining ever end? (1.74 / 27) (#5)
by emwi on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 04:54:11 AM EST

I hope that people might use this little story of mine to vent about recent terror-related events

Sure. Here is mine. It was horrible. Horrible, I tell you!


Gah. (2.52 / 23) (#8)
by Kasreyn on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 05:47:17 AM EST

You missed the most important line from that segment of 1984, in that war is no longer waged against another state, but by the state against its own people.
"Terrorism: deadly violence against humans and other living things, usually conducted by government against its own people."

-Edward Abbey.

Your use of capitalization almost made me think you were an impostor, but then you came out with the crap about using emotions.

RING RING! Hey CTS! It's the clue phone!

Fear and loathing are negative emotions. Negative emotions can never be "used constructively". They cannot be "used" at all. They use you. And never constructively, only destructively. God. Haven't you ever seen Star Wars?! George Lucas has the emotional IQ of a canteloupe and even HE realizes this!

As long as you're A-OK with the idea of your quite natural, unthinking negative-emotional response to the attacks being cynically manipulated by a group of C-student political spin-doctors, by all means, continue believing this fantasy. When you're ready to wake up and see how thoroughly your nobility is being used against you by total sociopaths, then we can talk.


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
Read Shakespere (2.30 / 13) (#14)
by minerboy on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 09:11:44 AM EST

"There is no right or wrong, but thinking makes it so." Emotions are not negative or positive. It's your interpretation. These emotions developed naturally in humans, and have their purpose. You probably wish it would never rain, too - rain is bad weather.



[ Parent ]
"Shakespeare" (1.91 / 12) (#16)
by kitten on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 09:40:20 AM EST


mirrorshades radio - darkwave, synthpop, industrial, futurepop.
[ Parent ]
Nitpicking is for the small-minded. (1.92 / 13) (#21)
by BJH on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 10:31:05 AM EST

Shakespeare
Shakespere
Shakespear
Shakspeare
Shackspeare
Shakspere
Shackespeare
Shackspere
Shackespere
Shaxspere
Shexpere
Shaxpere
Shagspere
Shaksper
Shaxpeare
Shaxper
Shake-speare
Shakespe
Shakp

All spellings above were used (more or less widely) to refer to the same man by his contemporaries.

Although I must admit that Shagspere brings images of a disco-dancing Mike Myers to mind, and Shakp sounds like a basketball player.
--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]

I prefer Shakp. [nt] (1.66 / 6) (#22)
by bakuretsu on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 11:02:42 AM EST



-- Airborne
    aka Bakuretsu
    The Bailiwick -- DESIGNHUB 2004
[ Parent ]
We aren't his contemporaries. (1.50 / 6) (#62)
by kitten on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 06:55:57 AM EST

We have a widely-approved spelling for the name, and "Shakespere" isn't it.
mirrorshades radio - darkwave, synthpop, industrial, futurepop.
[ Parent ]
I'm not saying it is. (2.33 / 3) (#63)
by BJH on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 07:34:09 AM EST

I'm just saying it's not something that you should be wasting a post on.
--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]
You forgot "Shakes-beer"! (nt) (none / 0) (#150)
by Kuranes on Mon Sep 20, 2004 at 01:41:05 PM EST




Gentlemen, Chicolini here may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot.
[ Parent ]
Fuck Shakespeare. [nt] (1.00 / 6) (#45)
by Tod Friendly on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 08:05:43 PM EST



echo ${BASH_VERSINFO[$[$RANDOM%${#BASH_VERSINFO}]]}
[ Parent ]
omfg (1.60 / 5) (#81)
by Qwaniton on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 07:26:20 PM EST

I think I just agreed with something Kasreyn said. Fucking kill me now, I swear.
I don't think, therefore I
[ Parent ]
I'm glad it was good for you, too. -nt (2.00 / 3) (#83)
by Kasreyn on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 08:04:25 PM EST

nt
"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
Emotions can be used/useful (1.50 / 6) (#95)
by lazloToth on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 12:25:49 AM EST

They evolved and thus represent a mechanism increasing one's chance of survival.

[ Parent ]
Negative emotions can't be used? (2.33 / 3) (#125)
by RadiantMatrix on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:00:32 AM EST

Fear and loathing are negative emotions. Negative emotions can never be "used constructively". They cannot be "used" at all. They use you. And never constructively, only destructively. God. Haven't you ever seen Star Wars?! George Lucas has the emotional IQ of a canteloupe and even HE realizes this!

Let me address the Star Wars bit first.  If "negative emotions" can't be used, then how were just two Sith able to bring to bear an entire empire?  The emotional message of Star Wars isn't that the Dark Side (fear, hate, anger) can't be used -- in fact, it is very powerful (and thus tempting) -- but that ultimately the "light side" will triumph.  It's a classic "good ultimately triumphs over evil" tale.

To extend that to the realm of reality, fear and loathing may be negative emotions; but to suggest that they aren't useful is completely foolish.   Negative emotions like these need not control you -- if you allow them to, then you become useless, but if you master them they can be very useful indeed.  Mastering fear, for example, doesn't mean you don't experience it.  Mastering your fear means you use it, channel it, let it become a motivation for positive action.

I fear being electrocuted by a 220V main.  That fear doesn't keep me from working on high-power circuits, but it does motivate me to exercise caution and behave responsibly.  Also, I loathe debugging - that emotion doesn't prevent me from doing it, but it motivates me to design and code more carefully and responsibly so that I have less debugging to do.

Speaking of folks with emotional IQ's comparable to fruit, anyone who can't grasp that every emotion has the potential for positive and negative uses is approaching that point.  Even hate can be useful -- if the world hated starvation and bent as much effort toward defeating that enemy as it does waging wars over land and goods, no one would go hungry.

"In any sufficiently large group of people, most are idiots" - Kaa's Law

[ Parent ]

Dealing with problems the healthy way (2.28 / 25) (#18)
by ljazbec on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 10:22:08 AM EST

It's been three years. Get over it.

Quite Right (1.20 / 5) (#34)
by Grognard on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 01:17:27 PM EST

...hiding under the covers works so well.

[ Parent ]
You're a real piece of shit (1.55 / 9) (#64)
by duffbeer703 on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 11:08:02 AM EST

It's easy to deliver a pithy "Get over it."

I wasn't there, but I had a job interview scheduled there on 9/13/01. Talk about bringing mortality in perspective...

I know people who lost loved ones and I still get that feeling like I've been punched in the gut whenever I see the WTC footage.

You haven't seen the pain of a mother, wife, brother or father who had someone snatched away from them in those buildings. You didn't witness dozens of people fling themselves off of a 110 story building. You haven't seen a crowd of thousands stream tears in shock, panic and horror.

9/11 isn't something that you "Get Over". You must put it behind you and move forward. But you never forget.

You just don't get it.

[ Parent ]

The Problem (2.23 / 13) (#76)
by caine on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 03:02:45 PM EST

The reason people say thing like Get over it about the attack on World Trade Center is because there's to much sentimentality surrounding it. It's not in proportion. People die on scales like that every month somewhere in the world, be it from war, fire, flood or starvation yet they don't make such a big fuss about it; like it was the end of the world and only the US' glorious strength and faith in God pulled them through. Put simply, the US acts like a big fucking cry-baby and expects everyone else to come comfort them.

(Oh and btw, "God Bless America" is probably the most stupid thing ever conceived. What the hell makes the US more or less deserving of a blessing compared to anything else?)

--

[ Parent ]

Right, God save the Queen, I say! [nt] (1.83 / 6) (#82)
by vyruss on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 07:47:49 PM EST



  • PRINT CHR$(147)

[ Parent ]
God save the Queen: (2.00 / 7) (#96)
by spasticfraggle on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 01:34:06 AM EST

"Because nobody else will."

But thinking about it, in the current climate, that probably applies equally to "God bless America". ^_^

--
I'm the straw that broke the camel's back!
[ Parent ]

And to understand why (none / 1) (#122)
by spasticfraggle on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 03:15:02 AM EST

(for those with a zero rating fetish it comes with a picture), read this

--
I'm the straw that broke the camel's back!
[ Parent ]
What are they feeding you up there in Sweden (1.20 / 5) (#106)
by kurioszyn on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 12:16:10 PM EST

"Put simply, the US acts like a big fucking cry-baby and expects everyone else to come comfort them."

What in the world are you talking about ?

When was the last time USA came to Europe asking for anything ?

[ Parent ]

well, about (3.00 / 2) (#127)
by vivelame on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 03:31:43 PM EST

every fuckin' day at the UN?
Give us a break, and 'fix' Iraq on your own, plzkthx.
You broke it, you own it.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
ironically, be glad (2.33 / 9) (#97)
by sangdrax on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 06:14:31 AM EST

Be glad such an event is one of the few you can mourn for. For the rest of the world, 3.000 dead due to an (human or nature triggered) event is peanuts.

Random recent data:
30.000 deaths due to an earthquake in Iran (http://www.usaid.gov/iran/).
12.000 civilian deaths in Iraq since America invaded (http://www.iraqbodycount.com).
300k-1M deaths predicted if noone intervenes in Darfur (http://www.phrusa.org/research/sudan/pdf/sudan_genocide_report.pdf).

Some more war statistics:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm

I don't say you can't mourn. But the media does hype it up. America is still darn lucky never to be on the other side of an invading force (well, except when the indians got wiped).

Remember 4 (iraqi) civilians died for every 9/11 victim, next time you vote. After all, the war *was* advocated to 'protect America'.


[ Parent ]

Yeah (1.40 / 5) (#105)
by kurioszyn on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 12:13:27 PM EST

"emember 4 (iraqi) civilians died for every 9/11 victim,"

You talking about post-Saddam or pre-Saddam time ?

[ Parent ]

I have. (2.00 / 6) (#98)
by gordonjcp on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 06:34:34 AM EST

I spent most of the 80s wondering when a US-funded terrorist bomb would blow up my school, the cafe where I ate lunch, the pub where my Dad would go for a pint after work, or any number of places.

Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll bore you rigid with fishing stories for the rest of your life.


[ Parent ]
You have ? (1.20 / 5) (#104)
by kurioszyn on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 12:11:18 PM EST

Hehehe.

Yeah, it was a fucking CIA working closely with IRA to make sure brits are being blown up on regular basis.

[ Parent ]

Well (1.60 / 5) (#113)
by ljazbec on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 02:50:10 PM EST

when you put something behind you and move on, wouldn't you call that getting over it?

Besides, there has been suffering all over the world for centuries. People kill, people die, people suffer. I'd get into it more but why do so when Caine has already summed it up nicely somewhere in this thread. What bothers me with Sept. 11th is not that I'm glad it happened or that I don't care about the people who lost a loved one - I'm just sick that Americans who lose a loved one should be sympathized with more than people of any other nation who have lost a loved one are.

[ Parent ]

So, you understand those who did it then? (3.00 / 3) (#147)
by mrt on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 09:51:35 PM EST

You haven't seen the pain of a mother, wife, brother or father who had someone snatched away from them in those buildings.

Yes, but thousands around the world have experienced that kind of pain from American perpetrators.

You haven't seen a crowd of thousands stream tears in shock, panic and horror.

Like when a "smart bomb" blows your entire family to bits, or when a death squad comes and tortures and kills your father, and the weapons and torture equipment say "Made in USA" on them?

9/11 isn't something that you "Get Over". You must put it behind you and move forward. But you never forget.

So the thousands of victims of American (and British and European) sponsored violence will never forget their oppressor either? And the Serbians and the Macedonians should not forget a war that happened 600 years ago, and the Scottish should not forget the clearances, and the Kurds you not forget that they once had their own country, and the Native Americans should not forget the genocide attempt by white Europeans?
On and on, never ending, tit for tat, murder one and we murder ten thousand back. Sure, that will make it better.

Ah, humans, they would be funny if they weren't so tragic.



-

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
[ Parent ]
Clap. Clap. Clap. (1.25 / 16) (#20)
by megid on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 10:27:49 AM EST

What a pathetic rhetoric. What a poor understanding of the reasons the "terrorists" act upon. USA! USA! I shall say no more to this.

--
"think first, write second, speak third."
it's not about terrorists is about us (1.25 / 8) (#23)
by lukme on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 11:21:42 AM EST




-----------------------------------
It's awfully hard to fly with eagles when you're a turkey.
[ Parent ]
About both, since you and them are inseparable. (1.80 / 5) (#103)
by megid on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 11:42:07 AM EST

Now, the part that made me especially shake my head was the "enemies of reason" thing -- if you think about it (and I dont exclude me here), there ARE some people who reasonable hate our nations (yours as well as mine, Germany) for interfering in their affairs (though I feel that in the "meddling" discipline the US is world wide supreme). I wont even start on that Iraq war justification stuff, but lets say it, you also would be nervous if Arab airbases would lay everywhere in your country, Arab companies would ship all your resources out of your country, and Arab secret services would assassinate all enemies of the royal family, lets call them the "Bush dynasty" (Saud), which Arab influence brought to the throne.

And CTS wents on and on in that pathetic tone of his. Its so ludicrous, the way he plays on your American Emotions (TM). And you vote him up for that shit just because of some ill-conceived national sentiment.

In case you wonder about my reaction to that kind of thing: The last time we (Germans) had that emotional "we are the good guys, lets mourn and avenge" stuff, you know what happened.

--
"think first, write second, speak third."
[ Parent ]

-1. Author Would Do Violence to Peaceful Community (1.46 / 13) (#26)
by sudog on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 11:55:47 AM EST

Circle makes an interesting comment here.

Choice excerpts:

don't want to have a nice pat thread of rational discourse with some wanker
...
i want to reach my hands out of his computer screen and smack his face against the table
...
if kuro5hin were a real, live community, i would get quickly arrested and kicked out for loud, unruly, and violent behavior
...
i am honest: i am a troll
...
i submit that us trolls give life and humanity to a community, in all of the ugliness that is humanity. to deny that ugliness is inherent to humanity and inseparable from it, and to try to extricate that essential human ugliness from online discourse only sucks the life out of it, i say.

So basically doing violence to a peaceful community makes that community better, somehow, according to circle.

I've personally found that a peaceful community that remains peaceful is far more convenient and rewarding to live in. Maybe that's just me.

So does this mean, self-styled troll, that this story is also a troll? Or are you going to finally answer the question I've had for you since you made the above silly comments?

QUESTION: How is it that doing violence in an otherwise peaceful community somehow makes it better?



ANSWER (1.33 / 6) (#35)
by ZTaar on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 01:46:49 PM EST

Violence is a great force in society. It makes us stronger by shedding out the rightly abhorred weak. War is needed for humans to evolve. There is great Honour in Warrior Societies. The Warrios should be the most blessed member of any community, because the Warrior is greatly needed. Warriors strike down the enemy, if they don't do this, the enemy will concer us. Therefore all people should work to become Warriors. If they cannot, they should work hard to make the life of the Warriors easier. Grow their food, produce their weapons and so forht.

And ofcourse worship me in my temples.

/Z'Taar - Dark God of War
[ Parent ]

Huh. (1.83 / 6) (#49)
by Torka on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 09:27:30 PM EST

The Farmer should be the most blessed member of any community, because the farmer is greatly needed. Farmers grow our food, if they don't do this, we will starve to death, even if we have no enemies.  Therefore all people should work to become Farmers. If they cannot, they should work hard to make the life of the Farmers easier.

[ Parent ]
If we have enemies, and soldiers then (1.50 / 4) (#54)
by RandomLiegh on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 10:39:06 PM EST

...we needn't starve.

---
Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
---
[ Parent ]
Try winning a battle on an empty stomach nt (2.25 / 4) (#55)
by Torka on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 10:50:48 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Try winning a battle without weapons (1.20 / 5) (#85)
by Reiko the Hello Kitty Fetishist on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 08:35:32 PM EST

Any dipshit can be a farmer. Those same people would wash out of engineering. Or medicine.

But what do I know? I just buy worthless plastic crap because it's cute.
[ Parent ]
And "warriors" wouldn't? (1.50 / 4) (#86)
by Torka on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 08:56:17 PM EST

Heh.

[ Parent ]
Exactly. (2.00 / 6) (#87)
by Reiko the Hello Kitty Fetishist on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 09:04:33 PM EST

Cannon fodder doesn't have to pass 4 years of college and a licensing exam at minimum.

But what do I know? I just buy worthless plastic crap because it's cute.
[ Parent ]
Bah. (2.14 / 7) (#91)
by Russell Dovey on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 10:34:31 PM EST

And so it was that the Farmer and the Warrior started shouting at each other, yea, and hitting upon the other's head with sticks. "I am the more worthy, for I protect us with my sword!" shouted the Warrior. "I am the most important, for I feed you and everyone else!" cried the Farmer.

And the Politician watched and smiled to himself.

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Or one year's since (2.27 / 22) (#29)
by JanneM on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 12:48:21 PM EST

One year since our Foreign Minister was fatally stabbed by what turned out to be a solitary psychotic that rightly is now undergoing treatment at a psychiatric hospital.

Any date, any at all, is utterly overloaded with pregnant events screaming for our attenation. The only reason we even manage to commemorate specific dates is a combination of forgetfulness (for earlier events) and forcefulness (by the non-optional interpretation of the actions of our peers).

Any date at all is so full of tragedy it is ridiculous to even try to connect any particular one with this meaningless symbolism.
---
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.

+1 FP, but you gotta be bipolar. (1.85 / 14) (#31)
by waxmop on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 01:04:04 PM EST

You write coherent articles and incoherent comments; I don't get it.
--
Limberger is the angeldust of cheese.
+1FP, author is american (1.12 / 16) (#40)
by cuz on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 04:07:56 PM EST



-1, strawman's death cults (1.08 / 12) (#41)
by balsamic vinigga on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 04:29:32 PM EST

They are perfectly reasonable.  In fact, killing every human on this planet is the only reasonable way to save humanity from itself.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
We had to destroy humanity in order to save it /nt (1.40 / 5) (#43)
by tonedevil on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 06:29:43 PM EST



[ Parent ]
A well played cock-blocker (2.20 / 10) (#44)
by RandomLiegh on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 07:39:52 PM EST

This story has managed to stay in the voting que most of 9/11, which has had the effect of discouraging anyone else from submitting a less controversial article which might get voted front page. If this gets voted down, then CTS will have suceeded in keeping the front page schmalz-free.

Well done, well done indeed.

---
Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
---

it doesn't matter (1.66 / 9) (#46)
by godix on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 08:19:13 PM EST

K5 wouldn't let any story on 9/11 go up. It's too US-centric without the required amount of Bush bashing for K5's taste.


- An egotist is someone who thinks they're almost as good as I am.
[ Parent ]
It's not bashing if it's true, fwiw. /nt (1.71 / 7) (#51)
by RandomLiegh on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 09:41:57 PM EST



---
Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
---
[ Parent ]
Venting? (1.91 / 12) (#52)
by Irobot on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 10:12:59 PM EST

While flipping channels earlier, I saw part of a "remembrance" on CNN. The video of that day is the only thing that I know of that, at this point in my life, literally causes uncontrollable tears to flow down my face. I cried the day it happened, I cried seeing it in Farenheit 9/11, and I cried again today.

I will not "get over it already" as some other posters have commanded. I will not forget. I cannot. I will not shield my eyes, nor attempt to stem the tears. I also will not obsess about it, indulge in the morbid voyeurism of the tributes on the news channels, or cheapen the events as a political battlecry.

No...instead I'll call my wife, who is currently 1200 miles away from me on an internship, tell her I love her, and be thankful that I will see her again soon.

Venting, indeed.

Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn

Why? (2.00 / 7) (#94)
by Kal on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 12:06:27 AM EST

Why does this one event have such a powerful hold over you? Does the Oklahoma City bombing have such a powerful hold? How about the first bombing of the Trade Centers? What about The DC sniper? Why not any number of natural or man made disasters where many people lost their lives? What makes this one so special to you? I ask because I find this attitude unfathomable.

[ Parent ]
Well... (1.83 / 6) (#99)
by nanobug on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 07:51:25 AM EST

Every time I see that video I can't help but feel tears well up too.  I don't sob, but theres something about seeing 3000 people wiped off the face of the earth in an instant that makes my stomach turn and my eyes water.

But beyond that, 9/11/01 was more than 3000 people dying.  It was the end of an era, and one that most Americans would agree was a pretty damn good one while it lasted.

[ Parent ]

I think it's because... (2.00 / 6) (#101)
by Irobot on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 10:09:19 AM EST

I'm not sure. Perhaps it's because I grew up in northern New Jersey. Perhaps because I worked in midtown Manhattan for a year and a half. Maybe it just took something of this "magnitude" to really bring the pain and suffering home to me.

Actually, my guess is that it's one of the few catastrophes that I have a personal connection with. I saw it as it happened (on TV). Not nearly as sanitized by the media as the other events you mention, while being on a larger scale. I used to find the concept of asking, "Where were you and what were you doing when Kennedy was shot?" to be beyond my understanding. Now, I get it.

I've mentioned this to a few people who have professed to having the same reaction, also not to other events. They weren't able to explain it either.

Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn
[ Parent ]

Because we do what we're told (1.71 / 7) (#119)
by mcgrew on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 08:43:26 PM EST

The media has been searing our brains with this horror for three years. For profit and power. It's their ticket to your rights, what few you have left.

"The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie
[ Parent ]

911 vs others (2.50 / 2) (#130)
by Cro Magnon on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 05:05:34 PM EST

I think part of it is the sheer number of deaths in one attack, and part of it is because on 9/10/01, everyone knew it couldn't happen here. Now we know that it CAN happen here.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
Sheer number of deaths? (3.00 / 2) (#131)
by Run4YourLives on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 05:20:19 PM EST

Nagasaki
Hiroshima

A lot more than three thousand. But I guess those japs weren't your buddies so it doesn't matter as much, huh?

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]

that's exactly the point (none / 1) (#143)
by lostincali on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 12:17:32 PM EST

what do you think Americans realize is possible when they saw 9/11 happen?


"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

Planned for the media (none / 0) (#152)
by Kuranes on Mon Sep 20, 2004 at 02:04:55 PM EST

9/11 was specifically planned to fulfill what the West was fantasizing about in so many movies. It was made to look impressive on TV (Michael Moore has shown a little bit of greatness by not showing it in F9/11). This is the thing one should really hate the attackers for: Using 3.000 people and yourself as resource for a piece of art (as composer Stockhausen has, madly but with a bit of insight, put it).

Further reading

So, it's also no wonder that since then, US foreign policy sounds a little bit like M giving new information to James Bond about some supervillains he's gotta catch. Fits the story.


Gentlemen, Chicolini here may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot.
[ Parent ]
I can't speak for anyone else, (1.40 / 5) (#116)
by Intelligentsia on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 06:32:07 PM EST

but I'm personally pretty apathetic about what happened that day; when I tell people to "Get over it", it's mostly just a less tactful way of saying "I don't really care, so don't bother me with it!".

We need to prove that we can spread rumors just like the mainstream media.—waxmop


[ Parent ]
Congratulations. (1.00 / 3) (#128)
by Run4YourLives on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 05:02:10 PM EST

You now know how every suicide bomber feels.

So tell me, how does it feel to be evil; a savage; a blood-thirsty killer?

Oh wait, you're not any of those things are you? My mistake.

Food for thought though...

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]

Really? (none / 1) (#135)
by Irobot on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 02:07:28 PM EST

You now know how every suicide bomber feels.
I do? Really?

Huh. Well, at least I now have something to "chew on" for awhile...thank you.

Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn
[ Parent ]

It's sad (2.00 / 9) (#57)
by monkeymind on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 03:00:45 AM EST

I know this story will tank but i have to make a comment. The day started and I did not notice the date. Then the madia made me remember. My reaction, yawn. When it happened I was shocked and sorry for the people involved. Then I remembered Iraq, where your leader has managed to get 1000 ( and getting closer to the 11/9/04 total every day) of your people killed for no reason but oil. Wrap it up in all the justifications you like but no others wash. And if he is still around after the next election the Iraq total will pass 11/9/04.

I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people and assume the deserve it.

Get it right (1.71 / 7) (#78)
by mstefan on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 03:51:59 PM EST

Then I remembered Iraq, where your leader has managed to get 1000 ( and getting closer to the 11/9/04 total every day) of your people killed for no reason but oil.

People like you keep claiming the administration's policies are about oil in the Middle East. It's not, it's about global hegemony. Educate yourself. If you're going to be against something, it helps to understand what you're actually against.



[ Parent ]
surely.. (2.14 / 7) (#84)
by Fuzzwah on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 08:08:29 PM EST

I'm not saying you're wrong, but surely you can understand that global hegemony is only possible when "one side" gets near total control of the world's oil supply?

--
The best a human can do is to pick a delusion that helps him get through the day. - God's Debris
[ Parent ]

There's a difference (2.22 / 9) (#88)
by mstefan on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 09:23:29 PM EST

The problem is that people think that oil is the end goal; it's not. Its a means to an end. Ultimately, the idea is to create a unified, politically and economically stable environment where wealth can be accumulated and resources controlled by a select group of corporations/blocs/individuals. And it's not some nefarious grand plan hatched by men wearing hooded cloaks and meeting in secret as the lunatic fringe would like to believe; it's the natural result of those groups expressly acting in their own self interest.



[ Parent ]
Did I say Oil was the end goal? (2.00 / 6) (#93)
by monkeymind on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 10:54:32 PM EST

Only that it is the goal for Iraq, secure energy suplies. What ever happened to WMD's? Oh, that's right there were none. But the 'mushroom cloud in Nth Korea, what will the responce to that be? I wonder?

I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people and assume the deserve it.
[ Parent ]

Actually ... (none / 1) (#146)
by mrt on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 09:34:35 PM EST

And it's not some nefarious grand plan hatched by men wearing hooded cloaks and meeting in secret as the lunatic fringe would like to believe; it's the natural result of those groups expressly acting in their own self interest.

Actually, it's both. Secret societies are the basis for civilised government for 3000 years. Joining a secret societ and acting in your own self interest are not mutally exclusive. The opposite in fact.


-

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
[ Parent ]
David Brooks sucks... (1.83 / 6) (#68)
by skyknight on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 01:01:38 PM EST

He is easily my least favorite nytimes op-ed columnist. When he's not spouting moralistic religious crap, he's spewing some ridiculous black-and-white nonsense that's often just bad as the stuff that Bush says. This, however, is not surprising. Publications often sport a few token contributors than run against the grain of their typical slant so that they can claim that they are open minded, but of course they also make sure that these stooges are somewhat foolish, the effect being that the publications can say "look, we're being open minded, and the other side is idiotic."



It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
oic. that explains ted rall's career, then. (1.80 / 5) (#73)
by RandomLiegh on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 02:51:18 PM EST

as in "why he has one".

---
Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
---
[ Parent ]
Curious (1.66 / 6) (#79)
by theantix on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 05:58:48 PM EST

Name a couple of right-wing commentators who aren't "spewing some ridiculous black-and-white nonsense that's often just bad as the stuff that Bush says" or "spouting moralistic religious crap"?  Four years ago I used to consider myself fairly right-wing, believing in balanced budgets, impotent central government, and not supporting new huge government programs.

I'm afraid that the "other side" is best described by what you describe as ridiculous and has completely gone off the deep end.  Even the libertarians are starting to look sane in comparison.  If the NYtimes was so wrong in promoting David Brooks, who should they have put there instead?  I'm legitimately curious.

--
You sir, are worse than Hitler!
[ Parent ]

Actually, this is semantically hopeless... (1.50 / 6) (#80)
by skyknight on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 06:17:46 PM EST

The terms "liberal" and "conservative" have been so mangled in the past two centuries that I think we should stop using them altogether because they are simply employed as four letter words of which nobody is certain of the meaning. Personally, I strongly dislike both the Republican and Democratic parties. Neither of them suit my purposes as a libertarian, sane or otherwise.

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
Nice little tribute shockwave animation... (1.50 / 6) (#89)
by dxh on Sun Sep 12, 2004 at 09:52:45 PM EST

Watch this to bring back a few memories of that day, and where you were...it's a pretty well done tribute flash video/animation.

What did they think we'd do? (1.25 / 8) (#115)
by mariox19 on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 04:55:31 PM EST

I remember watching this video only a little while after the attack. I seem to remember it being much longer. If anyone knows where to find the full version, please post it.

Anyway, what did these monsters think our response would be? Did they think we as a country would huddle in the corner, holding our knees, crying our eyes out, begging to be hurt no more?

I am only sorry that our response has not been more terrible. In 2001 after watching this video, I wanted everybody dead -- all the terrorists, all the governments who back them, all the people who danced in the streets (including that one lady with the black head piece and thick glasses doing the turkey gobble). I still want that!

That attack went way beyond an attack on 3 or 4 thousand people. It was an attack meant to begin the end of western civilization, an attack carried off by savages. I only hope my country does not lose its resolve, and instead redoubles its efforts to put an end to this anti-western savagery once and for all.

As to those "tired" of hearing about September 11: go jump out the window of a hundred story building!



[ Parent ]
They thought we'd do exactly what we did! (none / 1) (#137)
by cburke on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 12:06:58 AM EST

Anyway, what did these monsters think our response would be? Did they think we as a country would huddle in the corner, holding our knees, crying our eyes out, begging to be hurt no more?

Oh no.  Not at all.  Surely you don't believe that?  What would have been the point, if our response was to do nothing?  The point was to get us to do what our enemies say we do, to get us to reveal our true face.  The last few years have been great recruiting for their cause.

I am only sorry that our response has not been more terrible.

You, and Osama bin Laden, I'm quite sure.

[ Parent ]

...by savages... (none / 0) (#153)
by Kuranes on Mon Sep 20, 2004 at 02:24:16 PM EST

...who probably made a lot of money investing into weapon industry stocks.

Global terrorism is not done by stupid people. It's the obscene underside of global capitalism. It's a business.


Gentlemen, Chicolini here may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot.
[ Parent ]
Something missing... (none / 1) (#133)
by JohnnyCannuk on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 02:01:08 PM EST

Oh yeah 7 1/2 minutes in the middle all that where your calm president was so calm he sat around like a bump on a log while your nation was under attack.

Apart from the biased political commentary at the end it was good - in 3 years I have never actually seen a picture of any of the people who jumped. The one of the guy upside down about 2 seconds from his own death was quite tasteful.

Thanks.


We have just religion enough to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another - Jonathan Swift
[ Parent ]

hmm (2.33 / 15) (#109)
by Run4YourLives on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 12:35:42 PM EST

#1 - I call bullshit on you "near-miss". You've been here for years and never bothered to mention it before.

#2 - How many folk died in Sudan in the last week? I bet it was more than 3000. But they're black and poor I guess, so they don't count.

I feel for anyone who lost someone on 9/11, but get a grip. It's been three years, the death toll was relatively small, and it won't be the last disaster of this scale to happen; considering the US has done nothing but justify the rantings of nutjobs like Osama through it's "kill 'em all!" "we're the good guys!" mentality.

Where is the USA's defense of liberty in Sudan? What about the Congo? What about Chechnya?

Life on the big blue bowling ball goes on...

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown

I wish I could '3' you again (2.50 / 2) (#120)
by wurp on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 10:50:00 PM EST

without cheating ;-)
---
Buy my stuff
[ Parent ]
Sudan? (3.00 / 2) (#134)
by Irobot on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 02:01:28 PM EST

Odd that you rant about events in the Sudan to an article by cts, when s/he gave us this article.

Oh, yeah. In this one, s/he didn't complain loudly or strenuously enough about the US.

Mea culpa.

Irobot

The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The first is imperative and the second is disastrous. -- Margot Fonteyn
[ Parent ]

um... (none / 1) (#136)
by Run4YourLives on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 05:02:04 PM EST

Who cares if he agrees with me? The question is still valid.

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]
they are invalid, you stupid fucktwit (nt) (1.00 / 3) (#139)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 12:08:22 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
thank you (nt) (none / 1) (#138)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 12:08:00 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
it's all true, asshole (none / 1) (#140)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 12:09:32 AM EST

and also:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/8/54352/79317

so suck my dick bitch


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

My problem with you... (none / 0) (#151)
by Kuranes on Mon Sep 20, 2004 at 01:44:07 PM EST

...is that, even when you make a point, you can't do it without swearing. Stop it! It just leads away from the argument! (And, you're fully right on this point)


Gentlemen, Chicolini here may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot.
[ Parent ]
I wish I had seen this in voting queue, cause -1 (1.55 / 9) (#110)
by brettd on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 12:35:54 PM EST

This story would have gotten an immediate -1 because I'm so sick and fucking tired of hearing about 9/11 from people who were "victims" of 9/11.  In fact, I might just post a story about HOW fucking tired I am.

Get the fuck over it, people.  It happened three goddamn years ago.  See a shrink if you're still troubled by it.

Drove into Boston on Saturday- the highway traffic signs blazed "AMERICA REMEMBERS SEPTEMBER 11TH"  What, did they think we forgot?

Better vote for Bush, of course.  According to Cheney, we're all gonna die if we don't.

Heartless (1.80 / 5) (#114)
by tarpy on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 03:51:51 PM EST

I don't know if you're a troll, or a heartless person.

I'm not a warmonger, I think Iraq was a mistake, I certainly regret voting for Bush, but there are times that 9/11 is still an open wound for me.

I don't really know anyone who died. A friend of mine had a friend from college that worked for Cantor Fitzgerald. My university (Carnegie Mellon) lost a number of it's alumni, and I remember reading about them in a profile piece some campus periodical sent out.

And yet, when I think back to that day, I am so sad, and so angry, and feel so helpless. All of us were victims that day. I can this day still remember the abject terror of not being able to track down my girlfriend (who worked in a higher-rise building in Chicago) and seeing if she was ok, and were they evacuating. I remember being physically ill to the point of vomiting at the image of people jumping to their death from the towers.

Over 3000 people were taken from us in one of the most violent, brutal, and inhuman acts man has ever committed against his fellow man. They weren't soldiers, they we're people like you and me, who just woke up, went to work, worrying about the bills they had to pay, how to raise their children, and what they would have for dinner that night. And a few short hours later, they were all snuffed out, right in front of us, while we watched.

Try as I might, I cannot and do not want to forget. In 3 weeks, I marry into a Jewish family, and one of the things that is striking to me about the Jews I have met, is that they all, with a passion have the words "Never again" seared into their souls.

So do we.


Sir, this is old skool. Old skool. I salute you! - Knot In The Face
[ Parent ]
give me a fucking break. (2.00 / 6) (#117)
by Run4YourLives on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 07:43:26 PM EST

Welcome to the real world.

Over 3000 people were taken from us in one of the most violent, brutal, and inhuman acts man has ever committed against his fellow man.

Um, no. 3000 people were violently taken from us in yet another display of our own stupidity. It is nowhere close to being the most of anything, except for maybe most televised.

How dare you compare the destruction of 3000 lives and a few buildings to the horrors of the nazi holocaust (6 million est), the genocide of Rawanda (800,000 est.), the nuclear enihilation of two entire cities (you guys did that, remember?), the slaughter in Cambodia (2 million est), Stalin's forced famine in the Ukraine (7 million est)...

The list goes on. 9/11 is not special, and neither are you. It is an insignifcant roadbump in the story of mankind. Tragic; yes, Vile and cowardly; yes.

Like I said before, Get a grip. Remember the tragedy, but let's keep it in perspective, mmkay?

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]

more people choke to death each year than 9/11 (2.66 / 3) (#121)
by brettd on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 11:00:56 PM EST

Over 3000 people were taken from us

Every year 700,000 people die from heart disease. 40,000 on our highways- a large percentage of those by drunk drivers. Something like 5,000 people die from choking on various stuff- most of it food, which strikes me as beautifully ironic.

We're a big country. 240 million. Every year, over a million of us kick the bucket. Death happens, ok?

[ Parent ]

The Jewish people... (3.00 / 4) (#123)
by One Childish n00b on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 08:43:33 AM EST

...are far more entitled to the 'never again' mentality than you. I'm sorry, but 3,000 is a blip compared to 6,000,000, and one terrorist attack is a blip compared to the determined and systematic destruction of an entire race. When bin Laden seizes power in the US and starts bussing Americans off to death camps, then you can start calling comparisons between the two. America has more than adequate ability to defend itself - the Jews did not. You have no concept of the helplessness those people must have felt - if you think you feel helpless in America, you have no idea what it is to be truly helpless. The Jews know. You do not.

What the Americans really lost on the infamous '9/11' was their sense of invincibility - it isn't the fact that 3,000 poor souls were lost in the attack that matters, it's the fact that they were American souls. The sudden realisation that those who dislike you were not all backward 'towelheads' who could barely run their own countries, but cunning, well-funded lunatics with the ability to strike very hard at the very heart of your society. It's nothing to do with individuals or rounded-off figures of dead, but the symbolic death of the 'untouchable' status of the United States. That, my friend, is what you truly mourn.



[ Parent ]
It's a Bush wet dream (1.50 / 4) (#118)
by mcgrew on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 08:37:29 PM EST

He's blamed every single one of his failures on 911, and we dumbasses believed him. Plus, it lets him and Ashcroft ravage the Constitution with impunity.

"The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie
[ Parent ]

blanket response... (2.00 / 2) (#141)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 12:16:13 AM EST

to all of the "i could care less" rants below

you don't care about 9/11?

well you obviously care about it enough to comment here emotionally and vehemently

so work out your true intentions and your true feelings

and then get back to us when you have it all sorted out, ok?

because you obviously do care

there is loving, then hating, then truly not caring

saying "i don't care!" with great vitriole and emotion equals hating you buffoons, which is a form of caring about an issue

so work on that fucktwits, and get back to us when you figure some simply concepts about your true feelings and your true intents, ok?

because there is commenting on a story, and then there is shitting all over it in such a way that says less about the story in question, and more about you the poster

some of your posts here only makes anyone reading your post wonder exactly what your emotional state of health is

read: not very healthy

a lot of you have some serious emotional problems out there apparently

i fear for your friends/ families/ lovers

all that acid and vitriole, nowhere to put it


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

what i got from that (2.50 / 2) (#142)
by bradasch on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 10:09:13 AM EST

was that trolls just troll around, but people who had personal bonds with WTC (you worked there, some have lost people there, others still get shocked by the scenes) don't (and probably won't) "get over it". And that's only natural. I understand that 9/11 was a turning point for you, and I respect all of you for that.

Also, I completely agree with you, and I use this daily: the opposite of "love" is not "hate", but it's "indifference".

So, unless you make a game of it (and I know you sometimes do ;-), just leave the trolls speaking alone.

[ Parent ]

9/11 is a big deal ,if you say so or not. (2.40 / 5) (#144)
by lostincali on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 12:31:26 PM EST

I constantly see this comparison by the numbers of what 9/11 cost America. It really overlooks a bigger point. Sure, there were 3,000 deaths on 9/11. Sure, there are more deaths every year caused by many things. I'll agree to that.

However, this attitude seems to overlook one major point-- the 3,000 people killed on 9/11 were killed simply for being American. Their killers had this primary goal in mind: kill as many Americans as possible. These people still operate around the world today and still have their goal in mind.

That's why this is different from thousands dying from smoking, or car crashes , or whatever. Those people were lost , yes, and I'm sure many of them were tragedies, but they weren't killed simply for being American.

You may think this is a minor distinction, but to millions of Americans, myself included, it's a huge difference. We cannot allow things like this to happen. We cannot allow ourselves to lose face in the world like this, to allow our innocents to be massacred for being American.

If terrorists were to strike again, with a nuclear weapon, the results would be absolutely disastrous for America. We are dealing with an enemy who hasn't done this simply because it doesn't yet have the capacity. Wake up -- these people want to kill as many of us as they possibly can. Biological and nuclear attacks are horrific, and 9/11 showed us they could potentially pull it off.

9/11 changed the American mindset a great deal. If you don't agree with it, you should at least try to understand it-- it's still a valid viewpoint.

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."

Hmmmm ... (none / 1) (#145)
by mrt on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 09:28:03 PM EST

You may think this is a minor distinction, but to millions of Americans, myself included, it's a huge difference. We cannot allow things like this to happen. We cannot allow ourselves to lose face in the world like this, to allow our innocents to be massacred for being American.

Quick question, would you say that is a majority viewpoint?
-

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
[ Parent ]
Don't know (none / 1) (#148)
by lostincali on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 10:39:55 PM EST

I really don't know. It could be. I think most Americans do place importance on the fact that the people killed were targetted simply for being American. Many Americans want to retain the peace and safety from foriegn attack they have known their whole lives.


"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

Peace and safety (none / 1) (#149)
by mrt on Fri Sep 17, 2004 at 01:54:40 AM EST

I think most Americans do place importance on the fact that the people killed were targetted simply for being American.

As opposed to being killed for some other reason? Is that the way it's rationalised? I am truly curious, so I welcome your reply.
See, it's quite possible that there was another reason for the attack. Revenge, to cause pain and suffering, power, money, religious reasons. I would like to know where the idea that people were killed for just being Americans came from. Can you enlighten me?

Many Americans want to retain the peace and safety from foriegn attack they have known their whole lives.

Well, they might want to start by not doing it to anyone else. Then other people would know peace and safety, and would be less likely to hate Americans to the point of wanting to blow them up or fly a jet plane into a building.
Of course it's POSSIBLE that other people in the world could hate Americans for no reason at all, and really do want to kill every single one of them for just being American (well USAmerican, they probably don't want to kill Canadians and Mexicans, but who knows?), then that really would a cause for concern for Americans, who have never been known to hate people just because of who they are.

Do you think that is the case here? It seems to me that the terrorists could have killed a lot more Americans if they had crashed the jets into the buildings at say 10:00AM rather than 8:45AM, so I guess they just weren't very good at their chosen profession, or meeting their objectives of just killing people because they were American. But, I am always willing to listen (read) other opinions.

-

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
[ Parent ]
Three Years of War on Terror (none / 0) (#154)
by Kuranes on Tue Sep 21, 2004 at 04:56:29 PM EST

...and this is still alive and kicking:

Let's indulge in some memories


Gentlemen, Chicolini here may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot.
Three Years Since | 154 comments (105 topical, 49 editorial, 5 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!