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The G8 comes to Scotland - and so does Bob.

By werebear in Op-Ed
Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 10:57:38 AM EST
Tags: Politics (all tags)
Politics

The G8 summit is to be held at the exclusive Gleneagles golf resort near St. Andrews this year - a chance for the great and good of the eight leading world industrialised nations to get together in luxurious surroundings to discuss the important issues of the day.

The UK is hosting the event this year and one of the main themes is expected to center around relieving third world debt. (Or not, as the case may be).

For those of you who follow the regular pro-celebrity rioting competition that tends to attend G8 and WTO summits in recent years (Genoa, Seattle,Davos) this years Scottish event promises to make life highly entertaining for anyone living in the vicinity.


Heavy defenses, including two fully encircling 10-foot high steel fences are being erected around the Gleneagles Hotel. Over 5000 police officers have been drafted in from all over Scotland and England. Rumour has it that army units (including the Hereford hiking club) are being discreetly positioned nearby ‘just-in-case’ things get out of hand. It would after all be so terribly embarrasing for the G8 party to be overrun by smelly crusties and anarchists while Her Majesty’s Government is responsible for it. That just wouldn’t do.

Residents of nearby Auchterarder are apprehensive of the potential prospect of their tiny sleepy village becoming a battlefield between anti-globalisation protestors and the forces of law and order/totalitarian repression (this is a multiple choice, take your pick)

To be honest I don’t think Auchterarder needs to worry too much. If there is going to be trouble it is not going to be where the government have focused all their attention and security assets. It’s going to be in Edinburgh, which just happens to be the nearest city to the summit and also where I just happen to live. Specifically I happen to live quite close to the centre of the city just off what has been designated as the main demo assembly points and marching routes.

Fun fact – the city of Edinburgh has been assigned about a third of the police strength that Gleneagles (ONE hotel) is getting. Edinburgh is what passes for the financial and corporate captial of Scotland.
At present theres the definite feeling that we now have a big ‘RIOT ME’ sign stuck to our backs.

Hypothetically, if I were planning to cause trouble and smash McDonalds windows I wouldn’t be doing it right under the noses of the riot police. I’d be planning to do it in the middle of a city where there are a smaller number of police who are already overstretched dealing with the peaceful protestors (which in turn you can hide amoungst.)

The worry about this has been increased tenfold over the last week. This is since Sir Bob Geldof’s spur-of-the-moment decision to launch his crusade to encourage 1,000,000 (‘One meeelion’) protestors to cross the English channel Dunkirk style in small boats, march up the country and descend on Edinburgh for the Live8 http://www.live8live.com/ soft-rock concert and demo on June 6th.

Don’t get me wrong – the guy has done great things in the past. I just don’t think that this was one of his better ideas. The problem is we can’t handle a million people here at the same time: no way, no how. ‘You cannae break the laws of physics’ – they won’t all fit. It’s like trying to pour a bottle of wine in to a pint glass (which I watched a very drunken friend try to do recently) – you’re going to end up looking like a prat with lots of red liquid splashed liberally around the surrounding area.

We actually get almost a million people here for the famous Edinburgh festival. Unfortunately, that is a flawed comparison for the visitors are staggered over a period of several weeks and they are not all trying to get to the same place at the same time. Also they tend to be in a fairly good mood most of the time. Likewise at Hogmanay – we know you can fit about 200,000 to 300,000 bodies into the centre of town at the same time before people start to be crushed to death in our terribly picturesque but impractical streets.

 We came very close to this situation about six years ago and thus the Hogmanay event has been ticketed ever since and numbers held well below the danger line. Bear in mind that these were also happy drunken people at a party – not pissed off people at a demonstration.

At the moment many of the financial companies are advising staff to ‘dress casually’ in order to avoid harrasment (Suuure, that will help) – and according to the Scotsman Newspaper several organisations are making plans to pull out and continue operations offsite should events get out of hand. The Scottish parliament is shutting down for the day completely, out of concern for the safety of their staff.

Shops around my neck of the woods have started displaying prominent anti G8/poverty posters – whether out of support or as a talisman of protection against bricks one is not completely certain.
(Rumour has it McDonalds is instead going for steel shutters. Wise of them)

It is true that watching local politicians running around in headless chicken mode trying to cope with the unexpected is slightly entertaining. I just have the horrible presentiment that it’s not going to seem quite so amusing on June 6th.  To be fair to them they did try their best: a large, well-organised ‘Make Poverty History’ protest march is scheduled in Edinburgh for July 2nd, four days beforehand – with the full support of the Scottish Parliament and the British government. Unfortunately the plan was made for only up to 300,000 protestors. Whoops.

The latest fun rumour going around is that we face a critical shortage of Portaloo's– and apparently there are no spare units to be had anywhere in Europe. So theres also the prospect of hundreds of thousands of people camping out in our parks and completely inadaquate sanitation.
(Yes, I’m aware much of the developing world lacks sanitation. I just don’t quite see how turning my neighbourhood into a cesspool is going to help them more than staying at home and donating money to Oxfam instead.)

A friend of mine who is a Doctor at the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary has severe doubts about their ability to cope if anything goes seriously wrong, despite extra staff and ambulances being drafted in from across the country. Actually, the precise way he put it was ‘We’re going to be completely fsucked’.

At the moment I’m trying to work out what I think about all this. I’m not alone – opinion is fairly divided about the whole thing amoung the city’s residents.

On the one hand while I don’t think the G8 is the ‘Evil Globalisation Empire’ I certainly think theres a lot of justification for protest against it. Globalisation might eventually become the ‘tide that lifts all boats’ but it appears to be doing so in an exceedingly uneven manner, and there are still a hell of a lot of people starving to death needlesly all over the world every single day.

Coupled with the fact that the overwhelming majority of the protestors are peaceful people with a genuine greivance and aims that I wholeheartedly support.  

On the other hand I’m fairly reluctant to host a potential riot outside my house, no matter how good the cause. Even more amusingly it is the local residents in this part of Scotland who will ultimately be paying for the dubious privilage not only of hosting the G8 summit but also for the policing and other preparations around it – any any clearup afterwards.

I’ll confess theres an element of whiny NIMBY’ism at play here – but anyone who can tell me they would seriously look forward to this happening anywhere near themselves or their loved ones is going to require a pretty convincing argument.

Given that Edinburgh also relies upon tourism for a great deal of its income, the result of a disastrous G8 protest with casualties telivised worldwide has the potential to damage to local economy even more over the years to some.

However what is at issue here is not really the cost – or the disruption to our nice safe daily routines and nice safe picturesque city. What I fear is that that the message of the make-poverty history demonstration is going to be completely lost if events do go as badly wrong as I think they might, and people are going to get hurt.

It’s very possible that I’m wrong. Maybe Bob won’t get his million protestors and hopefully the demo will be a model of mature and peaceful free democratic protest in action, maybe the G8 leaders will be embarrased into doing something useful for the developing world and maybe nobody will get hurt at all in the process. I certainly hope so – however I’m just ever so slightly dubious about the probability of things working out that way.

In response to criticism Bob Geldof has urged the residents of Edinburgh to throw their doors open to the protestors and put them up. Tell you what Bob – if I can go and kip at your place while this shambles in the making takes place, you can crash in my flat. After all it’s so terribly handy for everything you’re planning.

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Display: Sort:
The G8 comes to Scotland - and so does Bob. | 123 comments (103 topical, 20 editorial, 0 hidden)
fighting globalism (2.00 / 4) (#6)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 12:21:40 AM EST

is like fighting the rising and setting of the sun

let's go put the internet and jet air travel and radio etc. back in the bottle

if you are going to fight something, fight something that might make a difference


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

From what I understand (3.00 / 3) (#8)
by daani on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 01:01:52 AM EST

Geldof is not really "fighting globalism", but trying to reharness it. Sure there are fools out there, but I think most people now recognise that nothing has spread human rights as well as the dreaded globalisation.

There will almost certainly be some trouble if he does get 1,000,000 people there. And the world won't change because of one concert. But this isn't some silly "save the plankton" crap, it's something much more worthwhile. There are enough conservative wreckers in the world, we need some heroes and dreamers to balance things out.

And what he is proposing will get us a hell of a lot more human rights bang-for-our-buck than, for example, expensive military inteventions in the middle-east. The agreement Bush and Blair made last week about third world debt may just be the most important thing either of them ever do.

Still, hopefully it won't cause too much trouble for the local residents.

[ Parent ]

except it is hard (2.00 / 3) (#12)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:40:05 AM EST

to describe removing a genuine despised tyrant as anything else except a giant step forward in human rights, regardless of how it was achieved


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
That's the Marxist-Leninist rationale you're using (3.00 / 3) (#18)
by topynate on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 09:30:42 AM EST

Do you agree with their methods of removing tyranny?


"...identifying authors with their works is a feckless game. Simply to go by their books, Agatha Christie is a mass murderess, while William Buckley is a practicing Christian." --Gore Vidal
[ Parent ]
actually i do (none / 0) (#33)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 06:43:08 AM EST

i agree with the leftists of old

who have all perished unfortunately defending an unworkable concept: communism

however, i am 100% in agreement with their methodologies

we need to defend and extend democracy with the same marxist-leninist-maoist zeal, absolutely

we must fight classism, racism, ethnocentrism, tyranny, theocracy, fascism, and religious fundamentalism and extend democracy and market capitalism into every nook and crany on this sphere with the same methodologies of che guevara

so welcome to a new concept of the left, one with a fucking backbone, same as the old left (1900s)

completely unlike the dead empty wasted left of today

whose words only serve to obstruct the expansion of market capitalism and democracy

somehow, it makes sense to defend the older enemies of the left to them

i really wonder what lenin or che guevara or mao would think of a left so busy today defending the rights of saddam hussein and a theocracy in iran and saudi arabia to exist


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I'm curious (none / 0) (#38)
by daani on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 09:11:15 AM EST

Exactly who on this "left" you speak of is busy defending the rights of Saddam Hussein or middle eastern theocracies?

And Lenin, Ok fine. Che Guevara I guess. But exactly what do you admire about Chairman Mao?

[ Parent ]

the us kicked him out (none / 0) (#41)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 10:07:33 AM EST

all i saw the left doing was screaming about how wrong that was

chairman mao taught us many wonderful tactical things, his early revolutionary guerrilla life is astounding... his later political life sucks

If you want to know the taste of a pear, you must change the pear by eating it yourself. . . . If you want to know the theory and methods of revolution, you must take part in revolution. All genuine knowledge originates in direct experience.

The people are like water and the army is like fish.

"Take the ideas of the masses (scattered and unsystematic ideas) and concentrate them (through study turn them into concentrated and systematic ideas), then go to the masses and propagate and explain these ideas until the masses embrace them as their own,"

"So long as a person who has made mistakes. . . honestly and sincerely wishes to be cured and to mend his ways, we should welcome him and cure his sickness so that he can become a good comrade."

"Revolution is not a dinner party, not an essay, nor a painting, nor a piece of embroidery; it cannot be advanced softly, gradually, carefully, considerately, respectfully, politely, plainly and modestly."

of course he did a lot of retarded things to: the great leap forward... millions starving while they try to smelter iron in huts for example

just another great man sacrificied on the moronic idea of communism


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

The US put him there in the first place ! (none / 0) (#55)
by werebear on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 04:40:47 PM EST

I'm under the impression that the U.S. originally bolstered Saddam Husseins regime as a bulwark against Iran. There are some fantastic pictures of Rumsfeld glad-handing Saddam back in the '80's.

I will shed no tears shed over Saddam - but remember CTS, the enemy of your enemy is not neccesarily always your friend.

'Death to all tyrants' is a rallying cry I could get behind - but that isn't what is happening.

[ Parent ]

let's go with you for a moment (none / 0) (#62)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 07:56:16 PM EST

say the us personally installed saddam and he is completely their puppet

complete and utter western centered provincial ignorance on your part, thinking the world revovles around the west in ways it couldn't possibly (it's a big world out there moron, stop being so patronizing to nonwesterners in your estimations), but let's agrere with you for the sake of arguing here for here...

when do you in your mind let the us say "ah, we made a mistake, ok, let's get rid of saddam"

so the what the fuck is value of your analysis?

"boohoo, we installed saddam, we caused great misery, let's just sit in the toilet and cry about how much we suck and are evil"

no, moron, if your bullshit ignorant western-centric view of the world were correct, THERE WOULD BE MORE REASON FOR THE WEST TO INVADE IRAQ AND KICK SADDAM OUT!

jesus you fucking ignorant patronizing morons

"oh no, those brown people in the middle east, so helpless"

THEY ARE FUCKING HUMAN BEINGS LIKE YOU AND ME

ACCOUNTABILITY

RESPONSIBILITY

IS THERE'S

NOT OURS

silly me: looking at an iraqi as an equal, fighting for their independence from a tyrant

asshole you: iraqi a poor victim of the west no matter what

you stupid condescending patronizing racist moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Um (none / 0) (#89)
by werebear on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 07:54:25 AM EST

CTS - I think you are reading a lot into my comments that just isn't there.

I actually agree with you - it's a very good thing Saddam is gone. That I and many others still have reservations about the raison d'guerre actually used is a completely *seperate* issue.

I also feel the abusive language was uneccesary to the debate. Can you perhaps explain why what I posted was 'racist' ? Your assertion that I implied the Iraqi's were incapable of removing him on thier own does not seem to have any justification - however I could be missing something, in which case *educate* me, don't flame !

[ Parent ]

if you agree saddam is gone is a good thing (none / 0) (#101)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 05:40:12 AM EST

you have no problem

otherwise continuing to complain about the reasons to remove him counteracts your stated position

which is it: it's good he is gone, or it isn't? other subject matter on the issue doesn't rise to the level of importance of that question

so you can prioritize, or you can't

but going to hell in a breadbasket, and complaining about the color of the handrails is pretty stupid, no?

get my drift? prioritization?

as for my abusive language, go fuck yourself, i have no respect for you

you are a racist: look at your post about the us putting in saddam

that you can read the history of saddam's rise to power as one of western meddling, and not one of iraqi failure, then it means you have a hopelessly western-centered pov

there is such a thing as avoiding blame for something you are guilty of

there is also such a thing as accepting blame for something you are not responsible for

why would someone do one or the other?

an inability to see the world through the eyes of anyone except their own background

in short: ethnocentrism, racism


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

OK (none / 0) (#104)
by werebear on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 11:26:49 AM EST

Fair enough - I should amend that to 'The US helped keep Saddam in power'

Am guilty of hyperbole - not racism. Me post after two beers. Me bad. (smack on wrist). Calm *down* CTS 'fer goodness sake - you'll end up alienating the few people who occasionally think you make some sense. (just not this time)

With regards to having issues about the justification used to go to war - well, I just don't agree it had to be one or the other. To my mind there were plently of perfectly good enough reasons to go to war to depose Mr S. Hussain esq. without resorting to the inept WMD accusation we ended up with.

The justification used to go to war is crucially important - arguably even more so than simply deposing one tyrant. If the justification for something that serious isn't sound then one is on a classic ends-justifying-means slippery slope. Use your imagination and try to think just how badly that could end.

Personally I'd have been a lot happier if the justification had simply been the gassing of civilians - or mass tortures and executions ... all perfectly valid reasons to my mind. Among many others.  

However the way things stand at the moment theres a lot of places wondering when Uncle Sam is going to 'suspect' they may be hiding WMD's - and not all of those people are the bad guys either. Effectively it starts to look like the US will attack whomever gets on it's bad side regardless of legality - and next time it might not be a despot. Actually I think this is unlikely - I know a few Americans and know most of you wouldn't stand for it - but once that path is started down each time is easier than the last.

[ Parent ]

more wmd bullshit (none / 0) (#108)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 12:06:32 PM EST

if they go to war with kim il jong becuase he has committed crimes against fashion sense, it's ok by me: the point is to get rid of the fuck!

we won't though, because the cost is so high: instantly, hundreds of thousands in seoul would be pulverized by that megalomaniac... it's a hostage situation

as it was in 1991

the real issue was this: in 1991, the coalition decided not to march into baghdad

because no nation in the coalition wanted hundreds of body bags coming home

the costs were too dear, even though the benefit, freedom for iraqis from tyranny, was worth it... and still was worth it in 2003

but it was a hostage situation: costs to good people were imposed by a tyrant

then 9/11 happened

now the usa understood: american body bags were involved in the struggles for freedom in the world no matter what, so better in kandahar or baghdad than in downtown manhattan: a wake up call

the coalition agreed as per afghanistan, but didn't see it that way when it came to iraq, which is ok, thousands of their civilians weren't killed

"but osama has nothing to do with saddam!"

osama has to do with the middle east's problems, saddam has to do with the middle easts problems, both are symptoms of a deeper problem, right?

capturing osama won't end the reasons 9/11 happened, the problem is all of the middle east: iran, saudi arabia, syria... lack fo freedom breeds madness

iraq is only the first step, this job will not be done for decades: when the usa knows young men from the middle east want to become doctors and lawyers instead of suicidal madmen hellbent on killing americans

iraq's neighbors will fall to democracy next, whether peacefully by example of iraq, or by the sword should another 9/11 style event ever occur again on american soil

do you understand now? you oppose tyranny, you actively fight for freedom all over the world, or your grandchildren will suffer another 9/11: fascism and fundamentalism don't go away on their own, they breed and spread

i agree the wmd issue was retarded, but i didn't fucking care, the purpose of removing a tyrant was served, nothing else had ot be considered

the wmd WAS an issue for the UN: it said if saddam didn't submit, it would invade, so it was a minor quick technical reason, although i would have preferered if the moron in chief bush had just outlined what i say above to the american people instead

don't get me wrong, bush is a moron, but at least he sees what so many "smart" people apparantly cannot about the conneciton between tyranny somewhere and a threat to freedom everywhere

what purpose is served by going soft on a tyrant? none, we should be HARDER on tyranny in this world

i frimly believe for example that we should invade zimbabwe and myanmar right now

and of course you can hear all of the cries of "imperialism"! "neocolonialism!" from the usual morons already... fucking propaganda victims... you don't see them talking about the assholes leading those countries making their people suffer, now do you?

so many fucking propagandized morons in the west

but we don't invade myanmar, zimbabwe because we don't care, and we're too shortsighted to see how suffering in kandahar might someday visit us in new york

lack of freedom somewhere is lack of freedom everywhere: it breeds and spread, and must be fought, for the sake of those currently it's victim, and down the road, your grandchildren

if you listen to those who oppose bush on iraq, they will whine and moan about myanmar and zimbabwe as well if you ask them.... but you ask them what they are doing about it? and what needs to be done?

hard costs, hard choices, if you actually want to improve this world

and some pin heads think hugging trees and singing around campfires will solve the problems of this world


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

He was already in power (none / 1) (#93)
by SocratesGhost on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 03:13:18 PM EST

Ruthlessly so, if you look at the history of the Ba'ath party. Our presence there and involvement was relatively minor and probably did very little to sway his war with Iran.

Our involvement in Iraq prior to 1990 was for one greater reason: their neighbor to the north. While Iran was a concern, the greater fear was that he would get support and develop close to ties to the Soviet Union. The U.S. had little choice than to approach him diplomatically so as to discourage him from siding with Soviet interests.

We didn't create him. We didn't really support him. We simply treated him as a head of state--which he was.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
shhh... (none / 0) (#94)
by circletimessquare on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 03:20:42 PM EST

obvious truth doesn't stand a chance against entrenched propaganda

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
You got me (none / 0) (#103)
by werebear on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 11:10:46 AM EST

Fair play - my comment heading was incorrect.

The US did help keep him there though ...

[ Parent ]

in addition to the usa helping (none / 0) (#106)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 11:38:35 AM EST

so did france, great britain, germany, the ussr, syria, saudi arabia, etc., ad nauseum

to the point that any aid the us can be connected to doesn't mean anything useful to what you are trying to say anymore

additionally, ALL of the foreign help you can possibly illstrate is still MUCH MORE minor compared to the CRUCIAL INTERAL FACTORS which led to the rise of saddam

so what is the fucking point in this line of propaganda again about the usa creating saddam?

exactly: just propaganda, not truth


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

True (3.00 / 2) (#14)
by werebear on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:55:45 AM EST

I concurr - Globalisation isn't actually all bad and it's going to happen whatever we do - the question is *how* it happens and what sort of world we end up with afterwards.

Unfortunately the current implementation does have a few flaws - some of the economic aspects are actually making the poorer poorer and a few rich b'stards richer.

Theres also a sense that it is homogenising the world rather than preserving local uniqueness and character - the now classic fear that every city in the world will end up consisting of nothing but Hiltons, Starbucks and of course MacDonalds.

The Bush/Blair agreement was a step forward - however the news in the UK was full of the fact that Blair didn't get half of what he actually asked for from Bush in the first place. Americans are very generous people and the US donates more foreign aid than any other nation in absolute terms - however the problem is that as a percentage of the overall GNP it's actually not as much as many (if not most) other western nations.

[ Parent ]

or like fighting (none / 0) (#9)
by Kasreyn on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 01:10:54 AM EST

moral relativism. :P

Time for selective reasoning, cts! You can do it! ;)


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
actually, i'm with you 100% (3.00 / 2) (#10)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:38:30 AM EST

how do you fight an abstract concept? a buzzword?

something with so many meanings, some meanings self-contradictory, and including many that are contradictory across different people's understanding of the term? ;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Like evil? (3.00 / 4) (#16)
by kamera on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 08:52:57 AM EST

link

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." -- Oscar Wilde
[ Parent ]

ah mr. philosopher (none / 0) (#32)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 06:34:05 AM EST

philosophize for me on my hypothetical situation:

a man takes a sword and starts slashing through town

do you oppose him or not?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

It matters (none / 1) (#34)
by kamera on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 07:44:39 AM EST

It might make more sense to be off saving hundreds of millions of people from starvation, poor sanitation, and preventable diseases. Want and poverty are greater and more persistent tyrants than any man with a sword could dream of being. Also, it might require me to do substantial damage to people around the town to stop the man.(Obviously I suspect an allegory to Iraq at some point from you).

So no, I won't play stupid like Crito or any of Socrates' other opponents and accept your simple premises so that you can reason to some grand, but hardly valid, conclusion. I need much more context than that. What are my other options? What are my chances of succeeding? Is the town up to something no good, possibly planning on doing great harm to neighboring towns? And finally, why should I accept contrived examples?


"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." -- Oscar Wilde
[ Parent ]

fucking hilarious ;-) (none / 0) (#40)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 09:59:54 AM EST

"It might make more sense to be off saving hundreds of millions of people from starvation, poor sanitation, and preventable diseases."

so you walk into equatorial guinea

NEOCOLONIZER WHAT ARROGANCE YOU HAVE TO COME IN HERE AND TELL US HOW TO RUN OUR COUNTRY

oh i'm sorry, how can i help? you need sanitation, sound agriculture

YOU PROVIDE THE AID, WE'LL DO THE WORK

ok, here's tractors, money, equipment

a few months later... ruling asshole has a nice villa

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

anything else i can help you with moron in your retarded naive understanding of human nature?

what the 3rd world needs most of all... before education, before economic development, before sanitation, before all the lovely things you dream about...

is SECURITY

you truly are a deluded fool

you don't have an understanding of human nature

the good, the bad, and the ugly

grow the fuck up


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Yes, there is something else you could do to help! (none / 0) (#42)
by kamera on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 10:21:14 AM EST

Please read Jeffrey Sachs' End of Poverty and then reply, or if you prefer, some of the numerous World Bank and UN reports on proven methods of reducing poverty and their comparable inexpensiveness when one considers military expenditures.

Also, it's true that lack of security usually contributes to poverty, but the reverse is also true--poverty causes insecurity. The causal arrow runs both way. When you claim poverty is mainly a function of lack of security, you allow half of the equation to monopolize the other, which is really just an oversimplified view and largely counterproductive.

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." -- Oscar Wilde
[ Parent ]

Read the Copenhagen Consensus (none / 1) (#44)
by LilDebbie on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:21:34 PM EST

They found that military intervention is actually incredibly cost effective. The shit of it is, most of the poverty in the world today, that is, the really bad poverty, is a result from tyrannical dictators who are, far worse than tyrannous, incompetent.

Incompetent dictators are the kind of wolves who don't know not to eat the entire flock. That is why some dictators are tolerated (Musharaf, the Chinese Communist Party, Castro to an extent) while others are not (damn near every African "president").

To end poverty in these places, it is absolutely necessary to have in place a government capable of rule of law with either a low level of corruption or a stable one (capitalism corrects for corruption so long as it is consistent over time). Sometimes force is required to put such a government in place.

Unless, of course, you're one of those nutjobs who thinks we can end uneven distribution of wealth, in which case I suggest you start throwing rocks at Starbucks because that's the only argument you have.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
So... (none / 0) (#47)
by JahToasted on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:58:52 PM EST

Iraq is such a mess because Bush is an incompetent Tyrant?

Actually I honestly believe that is the case. The Iraq regime change may have worked if the Bush administration weren't such dumbasses.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

so you don't disagree with the principle (none / 0) (#61)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 07:51:31 PM EST

of invading iraq?

you only disagree with the execution?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

pretty much... (none / 0) (#63)
by JahToasted on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 10:23:10 PM EST

They gave all this bullshit about WMD's, told the UN to fuck off, had no plan whatsoever for after the regime was toppled. Even I knew it was just a disaster in the making, and I sure as hell don't have the resources the pentagon has.

If they had of just came out and said "Look, saddam is a bad guy who's got a lot of oil. somehow he's gonna sell it and use that money to oppress people. we don't want to see that happen, we'd rather see iraq be a democracy instead." And actually had a solid plan for making that happen, and maybe spent a year training US soldiers how to do Peacekeeping, then yeah I'd be behind it all the way.

But the way things are now, they would have been better off just waiting for saddam to die off.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

it's 2005 (1.00 / 3) (#66)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 11:37:13 PM EST

it's over enough for you to say that?

damn! i wish i had your crystal ball!

2 years ago you are the kind of moron who would be saying loudly and proudly iraq would be in civil war by 2005

what a loser

you're a pessimist: you have no faith in humanity, that is the sum total of the value of your words and thoughts

fucking useless

"oh those poor brown people, they can't take care of themselves"

racist sheltered western moron

just waiting for saddam to die off? he had sons, remember? question: kim il jong is the son of who? bashar assad is the son of who?

"oh look that guy is raping that woman in the alley... but don't worry, he looks like he's about to come, so just move on"

that's your position

your stupid about human nature, and you don't care about human nature, and you are pessimistic about it to boot

why do you even fucking open your mouth you sheltered rich western fuck?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

relax, dude. (none / 0) (#67)
by JahToasted on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 12:15:02 AM EST

You asked, I answered.

Ahh, these conversations are so fun. Anyways, it's not that I have a crystal ball, its just that I'm not naive about these sorts of things. Trying to change the social order in a foriegn country is hard. Extremely hard. Putting a man on the moon is simple in comparison.

So when the US ambles on in with this cowboy mentality that if we get rid of the bad guys everyone in dodge city is gonna just love us, I know its not going to go so well.

If the US was prepared for it properly then yeah, it could have worked out ok. But look at iraq now. No water, no lights, gangs control the streets. What's going to happen when the US leaves? well some Tyrant is going to take over and bring the water and the lights and get rid of the gangs. Because to them democracy=living in squalor and a dictatorship=being safe (as long as you don't talk bad about the dictator). The US has convice iraqis that democracy sucks.

So now instead of an old Tyrant (saddam) we get a young tyrant. Plus God knows how many dead bodies. Plus a population thats wary of democracy.

Thats why I say it would have been better to have leave saddam there until he died. Once he was dead the people may have demanded democracy.

"oh those poor brown people, they can't take care of themselves"

Hey I'm the one that thinks Iraq could have become a democracy on its own. Your the one who thinks that those "poor brown people" can't have democracy unless the US forces it on them.

I understand the plan, and if it worked it would have been great. Imagine a democratic Iraq! But the Bush administration fucking failed it. You can't build a democracy on lies and torture.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

you really are a moron (none / 0) (#68)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 01:11:14 AM EST

"pessimism"

what does that word mean to you

you have no wisdom, you have no intelligence

you just have hopelessness and helplessness

that never went anywhere in this world

you can wallow in it

don't expect it to mean anyone else will


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I'm rubber you're glue (none / 0) (#74)
by JahToasted on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 12:10:19 PM EST

you say i'm a pessimist, I say you're naive.

whatever dude, don't cry to me because your heroes in the whitehouse blundered into becoming monsters.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

life in the ivory tower (none / 0) (#75)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 12:22:18 PM EST

to look down on the struggles of mankind, and sneer at them because they are ugly

content in your superiority because you choose not to participate

you can't be good without risking being evil

you can become evil meanwhile by simply doing no good

monsters indeed


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

haha (none / 0) (#91)
by JahToasted on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 11:24:11 AM EST

well their participation (as well as yours) amounts to sending OTHER people out to do the dirty work. Yeah they're real heroes them guys.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]
you're the one in the ivory tower moron (none / 0) (#100)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 05:34:18 AM EST

i'm glad your place in life is beginning to dawn on you


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Says the guy... (none / 0) (#105)
by JahToasted on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 11:38:09 AM EST

living in one of the most affluent neighbourhoods in one of the most affluent cities of the most affluent nation in the world.

Yeah, real man of the people. "I support the people who order people to die in vain trying to build a democracy for those poor brown people." You should be man of the fucking year circletimessquare.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

thank you (none / 0) (#107)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 11:47:14 AM EST

i'll be in mindanao by the end of the year for a month

every year of my life

want to know what i'll be doing there? teehee ;-)

so is there anything else i can help you with you rich western child?

you should learn to know who you are talking to you before you prejudice

especially when your words so easily profile you as so uncaring

small hint: you don't criticize me from a position of superiority

your cynicism and pessimism paint you as someone unable to bring aid to this world constructively, you talk from an inferior position: a sheltered rich one

you should learn something useful for the 3rd world, and go there, and do good

and learn what is really at stake in this world

but right now, you are a child of the west: you speak loudly, yet you are full of nothing but your own empty shit, because you don't know anything else outside of the west

it takes security, security before education, security before peace, security before prosperity

you should get to know the world before you comment on it

you're hubris is showing dear: you comment on what you don't know about

for example: me, and the world outside the usa

but i thank you for the man of the year nomination! ;-)

grow up, you loud little stupid child

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

heed your own advice (none / 0) (#109)
by JahToasted on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 12:42:34 PM EST

small hint: you don't criticize me from a position of superiority

I have spent 3.5 of the last five in Kingston Jamaica. In case you aren't aware, it porbably on the top five of the most dangerous cities in the world. Well it was before the US brought "Democracy" to Iraq, I'm sure that bumped it down in the rankings quite a few notches.

And before you start thinking I sat on a resort sipping tropical drinks, think again. Ever have to worry if you'd be able to get home from a meeting because someone was gunned down outside the building you were meeting in? Have you been to places the police don't go because the gangs routinely block of the road? if not then STFU rich western child.

I don't have friends in poor countries. I have family in poor countries.

Oh but your so fucking hardcore for going to a poor country for a months vacation. You are a fucking joke. Even more of a joke than those damn fool peace corp idiots that spend all of their time bragging about how hardcore they are because they were in the ghetto. At least they have seen poverty up close for six months. You know some people in a poor country and that makes you an expert on poverty.

So you're going to the philipines for a month and that makes you an authority on poverty in the world? I have lived with the poor. I have been poor. I have worked in the third world. I have worked to help an NGO to try to teach children to read to only find out that since the NGO was providing this the government would spend less on it. Solving the worlds problems ain't easy, child.

Oh and Democracy? It isn't a matter of either you are or you aren't. There's a hell of a lot of grey area in between. The US has used that grey area to influence other democracy for years. In kingston gangs are affiliated with political parties. You support the party the gang is affiliated with or you might get some acid thrown in your face. Where did the gangs come from? The CIA armed them to prevent the country from becoming too socialist. So sorry for not thinking of the US as the great defender of democracy.

I got a million stories about how fucked up the world is. But you wouldn't understand because it conflicts with your simple world view. Last election the going rate was JA$3000 (about $50US). Ah but Jamaica is a democracy and that comforts you tourists. As long as the fences around the all inclusive resorts are tall enough to keep out the poor people, right?

So yeah maybe Iraq is officially a democracy, but what the hell does that mean? It means simply that idiots like you feel like you've done something good.

Ok, fine if you want to live in your own little world where you are an expert on poverty and the solution is sticking a gun to people's head and telling them they must be democratic. And you're a fucking expert because you vacation in a poor country one month out of the year.

Fucking Tourist.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

yuh stush risto ma'ama mon (none / 0) (#110)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 02:47:35 PM EST

wa'ppen? yuh vex?

i axe yuh battybwoy, yuh yardie? or kasko bornjamerican babylon risto?

i no kya, yuh kasko hitey titey ginnygog jamdung

locate rock river on your map in clarendon

go ahead call me a tourist

where my ex-fiance of 5 year's family lives, and where i have lived for two months

point hill, rock river, spanish town: big up

yuh maampaalo gravelicious mawga dog

yuh cunoomunoo

me dibby dibby grindsmon, yuh dun

dem duppy dem an dem john crow dem an dem guzoo obeah

yuh mash up yuh punany screw face, yuh flex fayva bad mon

yuh likkle mind is mud up, yuh thinking cjan wok

pickney, a wha yuh tek dis fa?

no rispeck fi yuh, much warra warra an rahjah

rae rae, gwey fa real, yuh mus fi get a bly

BWAHAHAHAHA

stupid asshole ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

damn (none / 0) (#112)
by JahToasted on Sat Jun 18, 2005 at 05:18:25 PM EST

that's why I never talk patois. If you don't do it right you look too fool. But then you were living with country people so you never had much chance.

Typical American. I know the type see people like you al the time in peace corps. Two months in a place and you think you know everything. Yes, you are a tourist. Right down to the tourist patois. did you get your hair done up in braids or did you go all out and get the dreads? Did you buy weed from the dreads for $10 US a gram and think you were getting a deal? You fit into the class I call the "hardcore" tourist. I'm sorry, circletimessquare, you ain't that special.

rock river? Never been there. did some work in may pen, though, is it anywhere near there? Not that I care about the backa-a-bush place you stayed. Looks to me that you never went to Town. Look on your map of Kingston, find Allman Town, Greenwish Town, Olympic Gardens, Jones Town, Hannah Town (I had a lot of problems there), Seaview, and a shitload of others I can't remember right now. These are the places I work. Here's a tip they're all below Halfway tree. Ask your ex-fiance or whoever. Country Jamaica and Town Jamaica is two diferent places.

I guess at the end of the year I can look forward to you being an expert on everywhere in the philipines because you stayed.

Why do I bother even writing this? Because your responses are so damn funny. Come on Mr. Hardcore Tourist, explain to me how hardcore you are. Please try to write it in patois, it makes it even funnier.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

listen up, babylon bumbaclot (none / 0) (#113)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jun 18, 2005 at 06:02:25 PM EST

"But then you were living with country people so you never had much chance.
Typical American."

dude, you shit on your own countryfolk, then you shit on me

if you want to develop a cogent approach to the world, you have to learn to stop shitting on everyone

negativity and pessimism never took anyone anywhere, understand babylon bumbaclot?

no do you really understand how much yout words betray you as a useless cynic?

just so you know, your attitude towards the low, the vulgar, is actually more in line with republican caribbeans i meet

you know, the type of proper british mustee fustee black caribbean who comes here and looks down their nose at the african american community in the usa as a bunch of lazy sense of priveledge type (and how the african americans look at the caribbeans who stroll in here thinking they own the place, but this is another issue... the point is, your high class negative down the nose way of looking at even your own countryfolk... what does that mean to you?)

know your legacy: negativity, division... you are part of the problem, not a solution

you need to divorce your deeply ingrained negavity and pessisism, abnout jamaica and jamaicans

you think you have wisdom, but you just have defeatism, it shows greatly

in the philippines, in jamaica, in barbados, in antigua: you're a dime a dozen

i remember in leyte i got into a long drawn out convo with a filipino who just came back from eritrea serving in the un, just basically wanted to unload on me how much the philippines sucks

in antigua i got in convo with a young woman who basically had it all figured out: how much antigua is a backroads empty pointless hole

and then you listen to americans talk about how much america sucks

and all of you assholes: simple, useless, braindead, whiny negativity

no wisdom, just helplessness

i have no respect for any of you, just a lot of anger: OK, IT SUCKS! SHUT THE FUCK UP AND STOP BEING SO FUCKING USELESS AND NEGATIVE!!!!!

FUCKING USELESS

you be POSITIVE ABOUT THE WORLD or you are a USELESS ASSHOLE

understand? do you REALLY?

ps: i know all about pnp and jlp, and their tactics... of course in your mind, it's all the cia's work... heaven forbid jamaicans could be held accountable for their own country, right? laughably racist of you, but that you are also a jamaican just makes it doubly betrayal on your part

but enough of your failures, you're making me nostalgic, i miss jamaica, beautiful people, beautiful country... you know those charts they have of the world where countries are inflated or deflated according to gnp?

if they had such a map for cultural influence, jamaica would be one of the world powerhouses, amazing that such a small country can exert such cultural influence... go to moscow, tokyo, berlin, shanghai, etc... ask anyone what "reggae" is, they know!

that's incredible, and very special: jamaica is a very important place

i proposed to my ex-fiance very close to halfway tree in fact, towards the blue mountains

you're in la right?

if you ever meet a drop dead gorgeous size 0 5'7" half east indian half ashanti jamaican woman with the poofy hair looking like miss wholesome jamaica 2002... named raquel... damn... tell her her ex misses her... then you can tell her what you think of me LOL

riding the dollar van down flatbush in brooklyn to avenue d... eating bun and cheese at aunt lora's jamaican restaurant on new utrecht... playing sega with cousin sediki LOL

damn man, you're making me nostalgic

sniff

LOL ;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

suck ya mudda (none / 0) (#114)
by JahToasted on Sat Jun 18, 2005 at 06:42:39 PM EST

Trust me, I kow all about Jamaica's failures. And don't kid yourself Jamaicans have a serious inferiority conflict, and that is source of many of their problems. People see black folks on BET with the bling bling, and that's what they want. I think many people would go hungry to buy a brand name shirt. Jamaica people too fool. The country would be much better off without american television.

You talk of cultural influence. Ha. Most of the DJs come from Beverly hills and make it big by acting like they are from the ghetto. Then once they make it big they go to NY or LA and only come back to Ja for the occassional concert.

I remember seeing braveheart and there was a line that stuck in my head because it described jamaica perfectly. It went something like "top to bottom this country has no sense of itself. Many of the nobles share allegiance with england." Replace England with US and you got Jamaica. Most of the "big people" in Jamaica have green cards and spend as much time in the US as in Jamaica. MPs rob the country blind, secure in the knowledge that if theres trouble they'll be welcome in America. Kingston 21.

And yeah, its common knowledge that the CIA supplied the JLP with guns in the 70s. Yeah it was more eddie seaga's fault than the CIA's but that doesn't excuse the CIA for what they did. I don't go much for the Good/Evil thing, but Eddie Seaga is one of the few people (along with saddam if it makes you feel better) that if you say he's Evil I'm not gonna argue. America didn't make Eddie Seaga but they sure as hell empowered him. They armed gangs in a deliberate attempt to destabilise a democracy, simply because Manley was too friendly with Castro.

You starting to get why I don't like waht America is doing in Iraq? I've seen what America can do. And I don't see that they've changed their ways.

So when the president of Iraq gets a little too friendly with Iran, will America look for an Iraqi Edward Seaga and give him all the weapons he wants? Will the parliament of Iraq be as loyal to the US as it is to the Iraqi people? Will American culture erode away Iraq's identity?

Ask anyone when was the better time for Jamaica, early 70s or now. All of them will say the early 70s were better. And when did America's influence on Ja start?

Right now I'm reading Heretics of Dune. Not that I'd recommend it, but there is a phrase in it that is interesting. "Rot at the core spreads outward." America is rotten. Spreading America just spreads the rot. Maybe you don't see that because you are part of the rot.

Hey it true dat coolie girl have white liver?
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

dude you're a walking joke (none / 0) (#115)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jun 18, 2005 at 07:17:17 PM EST

this has to be the 15th time that i've identified your problem as excess negativity, cynicism, pessimism

and yet you keep coming at me with the stuff

what do you want me to do?

what exactly am i supposed to be impressed with when you write this crap?

dude, you're a dime a dozen, there's a couple billion more out there just like you: mired in negativity

it's not impressive

it's not thoughtful

it's not useful

it's empty, it's whiny, it's helpless, it's boring, it's lame, it's typical

you and you're fucking quotes, here's one more you should remember well jackass:

"my momma said if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say nothing at all"

capsice?

let's say, for the sake of argument, you are correct about everything you say

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT

because if you don't have a solution, SHUT THE FUCK UP

really

criticism is cheap and useless

real leadership in this world is about positive action

when all is said and done, you have only one true problem: you're common and oyu think you're special

you're common, because you confuse your excessive whiny negativity with intelligence

fucking pathetic


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Hahaha (none / 0) (#116)
by JahToasted on Sat Jun 18, 2005 at 08:08:16 PM EST

You're funny. What I suggest to you is you should get together all of the money you can spare and give it to the first crackhead you find begging on the street. Because of course he is going to spend that money on food, right? If someone says you're wasting your money, that he's just gonna spend all that on crack just tell them they are being negative, and then cuss them out for being the problem in the world and that if people weren't negative the crackhead would stop using crack. Serously. Go do that. See how it works.

Thinking positive will not magically make a bad plan work.

WHAT THE FUCK AM I GONNA DO ABOUT IT? Well the same thing I have been doing for years now. Carefully assess the best ways I can really help people and then do it. See some of us have real world experience. We know what works and we know what doesn't. We do what we know works and avoid doing the things we know will fail. Maybe when you grow up you will understand these things a little better. But I suppose if you never actually do any work on the hard problems maybe you will never quite get it, Oh well your still pretty entertaining for those of us that do.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

it's very simple (none / 0) (#117)
by circletimessquare on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 08:20:54 PM EST

you lead by proposing a plan, and working on it

you don't lead anyone by attacking someone else's plan

it will be 100 more years of neocons in the white house if the left can't propose a plan of its own, rather than merely attack the conservatives

do you want 100 years of neocons in the white house? i don't

but your words are ensuring that is so: people look to you, and see nothing but bile, and so they look away, you convince no one: you have no wisdom or experience, you only have negativity and pessimism

people listen to both sides of a debate, and no one hears anything from the left except "i don't like what the right is saying"

....and???

the left does not lead, because people don't choose them, because they attack but they don't propose an alternative

now, i've heard a lot of negative from you, and now some bluster about you doing something

well good for you! ;-P

so now, the next step is for you to articulate it in positive words

and therefore, lead

get it?

so the next time i hear from you, i expect positive articulation about your efforts, instead of your usual whining about how much evertything sucks

because if the next time i hear from you and it is more of the usual whiny attacks, i'm going to call you on it, like i always have

because people like you sicken me, you're empty and pointless and nihilistic in your words, and you don't even know it

what i want to see from the left is a return to the glory days of yore, around 100 years ago, when the left fought for something

although that something culminated in communism, which turned out to be a stupid fucking idea, we still need the old lefty spirit back, behind some new ideas

because while i hate the empty headed left of today that you represent, i don't hate them as much as i despise the neocons and newly ascendent fundamentalists in this world

they spell doom

you just spell whining uselessness


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

ok... (none / 0) (#118)
by JahToasted on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 11:17:39 PM EST

Here's my super positive plan: We reinstate Saddam Hussein as ruler of Iraq. We put the US armed forces currently in Iraq under his command until he is able to rebuild Iraq's armed forces. Then we make a law that says all the media in the world should make on as if Iraq is a democracy and ignore all the atrocities that Saddam commits.

This plan will work as long as everyone in the world agrees to it. So I don't want to hear any negativity from you circletimessquare. No. You have to agree with it with all of your soul. If you disagree with my plan then it is all your fault if it fails. I will call you a racist and tell you al of your ideas are stupid. You can never criticise my idea, because we both know that that's not going to improver the situation.

So how about it?
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

you have spoken (none / 0) (#119)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 01:04:43 AM EST

and it's just more of the same smarmy sarcasm

it's 100 more years of neocons in the white house then

congratulations, you get to whine about the conservatives taking away your rights until you're grey

enjoy moron, you reap what you sow

no one is listening to you

you have no wisdom

you really don't


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You are an idiot. (none / 0) (#122)
by JahToasted on Wed Jun 22, 2005 at 10:36:06 PM EST

See the point is that if someone is following a plan that doomed, are you supposed to just blindly follow it and just hope it all works out in the end?

Do the ends justify the means? is stability worth torturing people? Will torturing people bring stability? Honestly putting saddam back into power WOULD be better than what these idiots are doing.

Ok you want my real plan? Stop torturing people you dumb fucks! Give aid money to Iraqi companies to rebuild the country, not Haliburton. Apologise to the UN for being such asses. Make some comprimises. Work with people, not against them.

Newsflash: Bombing the shit out of a country is NOT a plan. But go ahead and continue deluding yourself.
______
"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames" -- Jim Morrison
[ Parent ]

I followed the conference in the Economist (none / 1) (#50)
by kamera on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 02:11:03 PM EST

I'm an avid reader of The Economist, so I caught the findings of the conference last year (that should also answer your question about whether I should start throwing rocks at Starbucks). All in all, I mostly agree with their findings; peacekeeping missions can be incredible effective in preventing further outbreaks and fostering security so that agricultural and other economic aid can have a lasting effect. As I wrote in the earlier post, poverty and insecurity tend to exhibit a reflexive relationship in which they feed back into one another. To claim that the only way to deal with both problems is through peaceful aid lets one side of the equation monopolize the other. Sometimes military peacekeeping and peacemaking intervention is extremely useful. As the Economist claims:

"External military intervention led by a single country--such as the UN-sanctioned British action in Sierra Leone--appears capable of limiting further violence. Extrapolating from the Sierra Leone example, intervening in around a dozen similar "post-conflict" countries for ten years would cost some $4.8 billion. The gains might amount to nearly $400 billion, by far the biggest pay-off of any of the policies considered.

This is largely due to findings that

"Civil wars' effects spill over borders, even though the fighting may not. With an average of 2.7 countries bordering each state mired in civil war, economic losses to neighbouring countries (for instance, from reduced trade and foreign investment) typically amount to 115% of their GDP. Neighbouring countries' total output losses, it turns out, are even bigger than those of the country where the war is being fought. In addition, neighbours spend a total of 12% of one year's output on military spending."
The Economist also plays down the effect of humanitarian aid:
For example, increasing aid by 2% of a poor country's GDP per year would, on past form, raise growth by about 0.2 percentage points a year. That would reduce the risks of civil war, creating an expected gain from peace of $16 billion. But the cost would run to $195 billion. This is poor value for money.
If you read carefully, they qualify their claim with 'on past form' (if you read Jeffrey Sachs' book you will see that aid could be much, much more effective than it had in the past if applied correctly--for instance, providing farmers with organic fertilizer which on average increases yields by 300% or funding basic infrastructure such as roads, investments in soil health, water harvesting for crops, drinking water and sanitation, modern cooking fuels, and electricity), and the study only focuses on gains that result when a conflict is prevented by aid, not the total economic impact of the aid itself. Secondly, the study uses GDP as a measurement, which is poor indicator of how well the impoverished are fairing. The GDP may be soaring, but severely impoverished individuals tend to remain largely outside economic sphere, thus much of the gains may be realized by a small minority of the country that constitute the middle and upper classes.

Although the Copenhagen findings do not address this, there are quite a few African nations that are decently or well governed-- Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, and Ghana to name a few. Increased humanitarian aid to these countries could have massive effects on combating poverty, not to mention bolstering democratic institutions.

Finally, when I mentioned military expenditure, I had Iraq and other general defense spending in mind. Currently, the US spends $525 billion per year on its military. It's total contribution to international peacekeeping is roughly $1 billion as of FY2006. Also, the Copenhagen Consensus did not have Iraq in mind when they crafted their findings--bang for the buck, Iraq is incredibly inefficient. Proponents of the war tend to frame it as a peacekeeping mission, but it was nothing of the sort. There is some validity to the claim that it was a humanitarian mission; however, if the Copenhagen Consensus verifies anything, it's that Iraq was about the worst place in the world to focus our humanitarian efforts.

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." -- Oscar Wilde
[ Parent ]

zimbabwe and myanmar: invade now (none / 1) (#60)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 07:50:31 PM EST

if the african nations had any balls, they would band together and kick that motherfucker mugabe out, and zimbabwe would improve dramatically

that's the road to prosperity and peace: a good set of balls, and a willingness to use them and kill motherfuckers who impoverish their people

next, asean gets together and kicks out the kleptocrats in myanmar

but no, rich morons in the west who know nothing of real human nature like you will continue to whine about peace and love and hugging trees and crystals and everything will be good and pure

fucking pathetic


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Cart Before Horse (none / 0) (#80)
by smithmc on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 03:45:11 PM EST


what the 3rd world needs most of all... before education, before economic development, before sanitation, before all the lovely things you dream about... is SECURITY

Does security lead to prosperity, or the other way around? Did the cavemen have the Bill of Rights? Would the American colonists have fought so hard for their freedom if they hadn't had so much to lose?

[ Parent ]

yes, security leads to prosperity (none / 0) (#84)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 10:27:27 PM EST

without security: education, progress, prosperity, or the bill of rights is impossible

anything else i can help you with?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Oh-*kay*, then (none / 1) (#90)
by smithmc on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 09:32:57 AM EST


without security: education, progress, prosperity, or the bill of rights is impossible

I'm not sure that simply repeating your prior position constitutes an answer.

anything else i can help you with?

Come to think of it, yes. Why are you always such an obnoxious prick?

[ Parent ]

repeating my prior position (none / 0) (#99)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 05:33:17 AM EST

makes sense when you fail to acknowledge it

meanwhile, i am a very obnoxious prick, so suck my fucking dick bitch


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

But where does evil come into it? (none / 0) (#78)
by smithmc on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 03:37:56 PM EST


philosophize for me on my hypothetical situation: a man takes a sword and starts slashing through town do you oppose him or not?

Sure you do. But it doesn't matter whether or not you choose to call him "evil"; he is a danger to the public, that's paying you (assuming "you" in this exercise is the government) to protect them, so you protect them, regardless of what motive the guy with the sword might have.

[ Parent ]

depends upon your definition of evil (none / 0) (#85)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 10:31:05 PM EST

a guy running down the street chopping innocent people is a nice definition of evil for me... you?

and you missed my point entirely : the wackjob i was responding to is implying you never fight the guy running down the street with the sword


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

sigh... (none / 0) (#92)
by smithmc on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 11:34:08 AM EST


a guy running down the street chopping innocent people is a nice definition of evil for me... you?

If you like. Whatever. My point was that you don't have to call something "evil" in order to realize that action must be taken against it.

and you missed my point entirely : the wackjob i was responding to is implying you never fight the guy running down the street with the sword

He didn't say that. He said that there might be times when the best thing to do is something else. I don't agree, but in either case, that's not what he said.

[ Parent ]

you don't have a problem with evil (none / 0) (#98)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 05:32:00 AM EST

you have a problem with the term evil as defined by some

i don't hold the definition that bothers you, so relax, reclaim the word from your enemies, it's a useful word, for you surely use the concept in your thinking, if not the word itself

meanwhile:

It might make more sense to be off saving hundreds of millions of people from starvation, poor sanitation, and preventable diseases. Want and poverty are greater and more persistent tyrants than any man with a sword could dream of being

that IS what the wackjob is saying

http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2005/6/12/143457/181/34#34


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

We can't even count on on Yoda. (3.00 / 2) (#15)
by OzJuggler on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 04:02:34 AM EST

Yoda: "Only the Sith think in absolutes."
OzJuggler: "But master Yoda, isn't what you just said an absolute?"


"And I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together
at Osama's homo abortion pot and commie jizzporium." - Jon Stewart's gift to Bill O'Reilly, 7 Dec 2005.
[ Parent ]

Yoda responds, (2.00 / 2) (#49)
by Harvey Anderson on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 02:07:55 PM EST

"OzJuggler, do not my patience try by attempting to the customs of language against me turn back.  To say a circle is not a square does not one make a Sith and know it you do."

[ Parent ]
yoda clears throats and continues (none / 0) (#59)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 07:46:44 PM EST

"circle times the square he be, my personal representative to kuro5hin this fellow be, follow him absolutely, i mean err, unerringly you should do, mm, yes"


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Yes we know Yoda is not a Sith. (none / 0) (#72)
by OzJuggler on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 09:22:37 AM EST

The alternative resolution to my contradiction is not that Yoda must be a Sith but that he was incorrect in stating that only the Sith think in absolutes when Yoda had to have already thought that absolute statement in order to say it.

All aboard the Clue Train! Wooowoooooo!

You are so utterly unqualified to ernestly debate the incidental philosophical musings of a CGI character in a sci-fi franchise. ;-)

OzJuggler.
"And I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together
at Osama's homo abortion pot and commie jizzporium." - Jon Stewart's gift to Bill O'Reilly, 7 Dec 2005.
[ Parent ]

Man, oh man! (none / 0) (#76)
by Harvey Anderson on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 12:41:49 PM EST

If Yoda were to say, "My name is Yoda," would that put to the lie his statement that only a Sith thinks in absolutes?

No ho ho.

Context in the movie was Vader telling Kenobi (not Yoda, anyway) something like, "If you're not with me, you're my enemy." Kenobi responds with the Sith quote.

Does he mean that out of all groups in the universe, only a Sith has ever had an either/or thought?  No.

Does he mean that between the Sith and the Jedi, one group deals in absolutes and the other does not?  Yes.

[ Parent ]

Didn't George W. Bush and Tony Blair... (2.25 / 4) (#17)
by bobpence on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 09:21:52 AM EST

... just give Mr. Geldof what he wanted, despite my opposition? I read where Bob wanted debt forgiveness for African nations that do not currently happen to be dictatorships, and that his daughter is hot. Apparently the $40 Billion represents the total indebtedness of these 14 African nations (four more are in S. America), and frankly to we nations with a lot of trade, 40 Billion is chump change. We get it from the taxpaying chumps, and we have plenty of those.

Because of trade.

Because of trade that produces the Middle Class that the Left is afraid GWB is destroying in the U.S., but that apparently they don't want to see rise in Africa because having vast income diffentials among a megarich and an ultrapoor class is far too useful a polemical device.

Because of trade that Europe stifles while holding out the possibility they might just buy grain grown in Africa if, that is, none of this terrible Genetically Modified Evil-But-Only-Siths-Deal-In-Absolutes Bushitler Roveatsbabies Frankenfood is anywhere on the same continent where it might, I don't know, help feed starving children.

But like payday loans, this is easy to give, easy to get. And repeat business is virtually guaranteed. Higher paychecks are the hard thing to find.


"Interesting. No wait, the other thing: tedious." - Bender

What the hell was that? (none / 1) (#27)
by Aurochs on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 10:20:07 PM EST

You're trying to criticise way too many things in that post. I have no clue what you're trying to say. Clarify, please.

--
--
<ravuya> LIBERAL SOCIALIST MOTHERFUCKER PENGUINS ARE GOING TO EAT MY CAPITALISM
[ Parent ]
Point taken (none / 0) (#28)
by bobpence on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 11:00:55 PM EST

Okay, here goes:

African nations do not need their debt forgiven, they need freer trade with the rest of the world, particularly Europe and the U.S., so that they can thrive, at which point paying off their debt would be easy.

Forgiving debt is like giving a man a fish rather than teaching him to fish when you are in the fishing business.


"Interesting. No wait, the other thing: tedious." - Bender
[ Parent ]

All right. (none / 1) (#30)
by Aurochs on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:03:37 AM EST

Step one - Destroy DeBeers.

--
--
<ravuya> LIBERAL SOCIALIST MOTHERFUCKER PENGUINS ARE GOING TO EAT MY CAPITALISM
[ Parent ]
Step Two (none / 0) (#45)
by Craevenwulfe on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:23:22 PM EST

Forgive debt so that countries aren't forced to grow and sell cotton rather than food. Especially when the cotton is worth less than the food but it's a clever idea by the Worldbank to help countries back on their feet (yeah right).

[ Parent ]
One problem .. (none / 0) (#57)
by werebear on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 04:53:38 PM EST

Broadly speaking I concurr, but I'm led to believe one issue with free trade for African farmers is that the U.S. and Europe have large farming surplus's that tend to be sold off cheaply just to shift it - undercutting locally produced products.

Not that I have a clever answer to this problem, just pointing out one difficulty in implementation.

[ Parent ]

And the surplus is due to..... (none / 0) (#70)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 07:49:33 AM EST

protectionist farm subsidies! these need to end now.

--------------
Have A Nice Day may have reentered the building.
[ Parent ]
Yeah, but... (none / 0) (#79)
by smithmc on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 03:42:35 PM EST


protectionist farm subsidies! these need to end now.

Sure they do. Just one problem - farm subsidies are almost as big a political hot potato in the US as Social Security. Every American politician knows better than to mess with farm subsidies, no matter how bad they are for everyone except the farmers.

[ Parent ]

Bob Geldof's Daughters (none / 0) (#87)
by One Childish n00b on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 05:22:51 AM EST

Regardless of how hot they are, I could never sleep with them simply because of the names - can *you* see yourself yelling out 'Pixie' or 'Fifi Trixabelle' at the point of orgasm?

The last thing I need when I'm fucking is sounding like I'm in a dirty, dirty Disney movie...

[ Parent ]
Why do people bother? (3.00 / 2) (#20)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 02:53:47 PM EST

The idea of protesting is so Romantic and stunted that I can't see the point.  Sure, have an opinion, but there is no real change that comes from anything of that low-calibre activism.

Also, I have never heard any argument that made the idea of globalization seem bad.  If anything, Globalization is happening slowly through the internet anyway.

rotesting the G8 seems like nothing but short-term panic against a long-term problem.  And by violently protesting, as they did when the WTO came to Montreal, they only make their point that much more stunted.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.

lack of imagination (none / 0) (#24)
by adimovk5 on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 08:40:34 PM EST

The protesters hope that their activities will spur actual productive activity in people with imaginations.

[ Parent ]
That's the only thing it could be. (none / 0) (#36)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 08:31:52 AM EST

I think they are protesting machines, who would get bored if there was nothing left to protest.  In the absence of protest they would have to create new issues to be upset about.

How do they not see that whoever gets into power makes unpopular decisions?  It's always easy to be the underdog that makes a big noise.  It's hard to make a difference that includes logic, however.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

Globalization protesters (none / 0) (#83)
by emmons on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 06:59:26 PM EST

Globalization protesters are kinda funny I think. They want poor countries to come out of poverty. The quickest way for that to happen is through trade. So what do they do? Protest trade of course.

I know it's more complicated than that.. and globalization protesters don't actually have a unified message. They're usually more of a hodgepodge of people against bad stuff, and that incoherency makes it all the more amusing. :)

At least in the 60s people could figure out what was being advocated. Kids these days.

---
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams

[ Parent ]

Well, on protesters (none / 0) (#86)
by Egil Skallagrimson on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 12:58:51 AM EST

I'd agree.  Except, that the WTO countries are now nullifying 3rd world debt in Africa, so what can they say?

As for the '60's, they only cared about what happened in front of thier faces.  Don't be confused: they were less informed and more rafical.

----------------

Enterobacteria phage T2 is a virulent bacteriophage of the T4-like viruses genus, in the family Myoviridae. It infects E. coli and is the best known of the T-even phages. Its virion contains linear double-stranded DNA, terminally redundant and circularly permuted.
[ Parent ]

"Globalization" (none / 0) (#111)
by freestylefiend on Sat Jun 18, 2005 at 01:17:25 PM EST

I thought that we anti-"globalization" protestors were against borders, western protectionism and odious debt, but for trade. The clue is not in the name. I think that the confusion arises from use of the word by the powers that be. They oppose trade more than we do.

[ Parent ]
Agreed (none / 0) (#97)
by Frank Anderson on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 01:39:41 AM EST

Protestors are almost always in democracies. They are usually protesting the decisions of the majority, while pretending to live in an autocratic police state. It is a modern form of entertainment, to enter a simulated dictatorship for a few hours.
As for globalization, it's good in the long run but can wreak havoc in the short run. I think the real issue is anti-corruption and fair, fairly enforced laws. Those reforms could beneft many poor countries whether or not they open up to trade.

[ Parent ]
ANARCHY FOREVER (none / 1) (#22)
by tweetsybefore on Mon Jun 13, 2005 at 07:21:33 PM EST

LETS TRASH EDINBURGH!

I'm racist and I hate niggers.
Anarchists unite ! (none / 0) (#46)
by werebear on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 12:39:55 PM EST

One irony appears to be that the Anarchist protestors appear to be far better organised than the local government is.


[ Parent ]
Oh pipe down (3.00 / 3) (#43)
by Nyarlathotep on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 11:37:25 AM EST

It won't be anything you hav'nt seen before.  1 million anti-globalization protestors ain't nothing compaired to Manchester United paying you a visit.  Just don't wear a suit (wrong team colors), and you will be fine.  :)

Campus Crusade for Cthulhu -- it found me!
It's a shame... (2.66 / 3) (#48)
by jonradoff on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 02:03:15 PM EST

...that any valid points anti-globalizations activists might make are submerged beneath their shrill, incoherent hooliganism.


Has it occurred to you... (1.50 / 2) (#52)
by beergut on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 03:23:05 PM EST

... that the violent protesters might actually be agents provocateur, paid by the globalists to make sure the protests of the anti-globalists are never heard?

I mean, what better way to utterly shut off their side of the debate than to throw a few agents out there to stir up the stupid and violent among the protesters, and lead a riot?

i don't see any nanorobots or jet engines or laser holography or orbiting death satellites.
i just see some orangutan throwing code-feces at a computer screen.

-- indubitable
[ Parent ]

i suppose thats possible (none / 1) (#53)
by insomnyuk on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 04:28:21 PM EST

but its more likely that those inciting violence aren't working for the globalists or for the activists, but rather are just showing up because they know they can get away with violence.

--
"I'm not even here." - Antoine, Upright Citizens Brigade
[ Parent ]
Yeah (none / 1) (#73)
by Magnetic North on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 11:35:20 AM EST

When violence is expected, people who enjoy violence will show up. The police always shows up.

If you remember the bizarre Indymedia takedown (FBI acting on behalf of Switzerland and Italy in the UK), the most probable reason they confiscated the servers was photographs of Swiss undercover police who acted as provocateurs.

--
<33333
[ Parent ]
Absolut (none / 1) (#102)
by lucidvein on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 10:14:12 AM EST

There was a terrific film made in Switzerland that referred to this that showed at our recent film festival. In Absolut, two of the main characters work with the Indymedia and edit footage of the provocateurs teaming up behind their office, before rushing the crowd to cause havic.

Rotterdamfilm has a better description, but gives away some of the mystery.

[ Parent ]

Who cares about Edinburgh? (3.00 / 4) (#51)
by josefk on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 02:29:53 PM EST

The Pink Floyd line-up will be performing at the London show. All hail Bob!

Well, (none / 0) (#69)
by rpjs on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 05:19:13 AM EST

I've just given my wife tix to the Pixies gig in Edinburgh on August 28th. I'd sort of like the city to still be there when we get there.

[ Parent ]
just clear out the riff-raff with bagpipes (nt) (none / 0) (#54)
by pyramid termite on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 04:35:51 PM EST


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
Or ... (none / 0) (#56)
by werebear on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 04:49:01 PM EST

The most amusing plan anyone has come up with so far is to position large signs around the approaches to Edinburgh with the message:
"So, you'll have had your tea then."

(Not a question, a statement - an obscure local reference to our national reputation of an ever-so-slight lack of hospitality for tardy travellers ...)

Bagpipes did scare the crap out of our enemies historically. I think the question our opponents asked themselves as the sound of the pipes skirled through the mist was 'what are those evil kilted bastards DOING to those poor cats ?'

These days you can get as many as four bagpipers along Princess Street during the festival, all busking for tourist cash. One at a time would be OK ... but when you find yourself between two of them both belting out different tunes into each ear then the discordant harmonic effect ranges from extremely disconcerting to physically painful.

[ Parent ]

But... (none / 0) (#81)
by gidds on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 05:13:20 PM EST

The most amusing plan anyone has come up with so far is to position large signs around the approaches to Edinburgh with the message: "So, you'll have had your tea then."

The trouble is that you'll then have thousands of people in "I Love Samantha" and "Colin Sell For President" T-shirts turning up, expecting to see Barry Cryer and Graeme Garden...

Andy/
[ Parent ]

Let them eat haggis (none / 0) (#95)
by SocratesGhost on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 03:32:12 PM EST

I say that they should coordinate activities between the G8 organizers with the Better Haggis Welfare Bureau to institute a summertime counterpart to Robert Burns Day in which haggis is the only thing sold during the time there, from the local McDonalds (it'll acquaint them better with their scottish name) to the local pubs.

The protestors won't show because they won't have anything to eat but they'll have the satisfaction in knowing that the G8 participants are eating offal. Everyone is happy.

-Soc
I drank what?


[ Parent ]
Globalization... (3.00 / 3) (#58)
by Znork on Tue Jun 14, 2005 at 05:43:33 PM EST

... in a free market would be great. It's just not what we're seeing today. The current version is cheap labour enclaves that get a very small economic gain due to competition, while western consumers get miniscule price reductions due to intellectual property protectionism.

In between sits the branding corps who are becoming paragons of economic inefficiency, rivalling the worst civil services and Soviet state monopolies in wasting money and resources, creating nothing of actual value to society or consumers.

Adam Smith would be spinning in his grave.

Nice editing job, NOT. (none / 1) (#71)
by OzJuggler on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 09:11:29 AM EST

 Editorial: Couple of corrections... (3.00 / 2) (#4)
by OzJuggler on Mon Jun 13th, 2005 at 02:38:57 PM EAST
------

  ..rioting competition that tends to attend G8 and WTO summits in recent years..
Awkward. Revise to:
  ..rioting competition that has accompanied G8 and WTO summits in recent years..

  ...the potential prospect...
You've got a habit of repeating yourself, haven't you? A prospect is potential. Revise to:
  ...the prospect...

  ..law and order/totalitarian repression (this is a multiple choice, take your pick)
End the sentence on "repression" and make the meta comment a sentence of its own (but keep the brackets if you want).

  "Portaloo's" is an error for which you should be put to death - but I'll let you off since you used the word "presentiment" earlier. Remove the apostrophe please. Put the hyperlink on Portaloo and put an 's' straight after it.

  I'll confess theres an element of whiny NIMBY'ism...
Put an apostrophe where one is needed, and remove the apostrophe from your newly invented word. The apostrophe predominantly shows omission, and there is no omission in NIMBYism. Yes I know what NIMBY means, the capital letters should be enough.

  ...damage to local economy...
to --> the

  shambles in the making
Hyphenate it.

 ...criticism Bob...
Insert comma.

Spelling errors:
"amoungst", "amoung", "privilage", "greivance", "telivised"

Those last couple of paragraphs are a bit whiny, so maybe consolidate them or delete one. Overall not too bad for your first story. Good to hear something from The Rest Of The World® for a change.

------

You didn't even fix the spelling errors.
Dunno why I bothered really.
Actually, why DO I still bother reading k5? I must be insane thinking that it will ever improve.

OzJuggler.
"And I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together
at Osama's homo abortion pot and commie jizzporium." - Jon Stewart's gift to Bill O'Reilly, 7 Dec 2005.

Similar situation.... (none / 0) (#77)
by johnnyfever on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 01:07:50 PM EST

I'm in Calgary, which was the closest city to the G8 when they held it in the swanky mountain resort not far from here. We had similar concerns at the time. We had a military presence in the city centre and a bunch of extra cops around. The media as usual did a fine job of blowing things out of proportion.

It was a lot of hype for nothing in the end. There were a few demonstrations, but nothing even mildy disruptive all things considered.

Now granted:

  1. There are only a million people in Calgary and there are not a heck of a lot of people within easy travelling distance
  2. Sentiment in the UK might be stronger than it is here - I don't know, it's been a while since I've lived there
  3. We did not have the Bob effect

However:

  1. I don't know the population of Edinburgh, but I don't believe it's that much larger than Calgary.
  2. I would be a bit surprised if the sentiment is that much stronger in Edinburgh than here

So I guess it comes down to how much pull does Geldof actually have, and how many of the millions of people in relatively close proximity to Scotland wil make the effort to show up. Somehow I'll be a wee bit surprised if anything catastrophic happens.

It'll Be Big (none / 0) (#82)
by gidds on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 05:18:35 PM EST

Bear in mind that the 'Make Poverty History' campaign has been running since the start of the year and had a good deal of publicity here. (At my church, for example, a long video presentation was shown about it two services running.) And I don't know about Sir Bob these days, but judging from the EBay fuss, he seems to have stirred things up too. So we're not just talking about people in Edinburgh -- or even just people in Scotland. People will be coming from all over the UK; possibly all over Europe.

Andy/
[ Parent ]
Edinburgh (none / 0) (#88)
by werebear on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 07:46:12 AM EST

I sincerely hope you are right - it's intersting to hear from someone who has had a G8 happen nearby recently.

BTW - the population of Edinburgh is only about 300,000 ! (Plus however many visitors)

[ Parent ]

Similar situation... (none / 0) (#120)
by crashandburn on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 07:22:04 PM EST

Edinburgh has only a population of 500,000 maximum during the Hogmanay and Festival, This about 1/15th the size and population of the Greater London area. The downtown area only consists of about eight city blocks, so there really isn't much space to hold a riot. Travelling by train from London costs around 100+ pounds, and takes six to eight hours. That would be a fairly strong deterrent for any casual visitor. However, there is Glasgow on the West coast, which has a population of 2 million with 40% below the poverty line, and is only 40 minutes away by train. During the MTV Europe Music Awards, all the superstars were housed in a luxury liner. So if that's good enough for superstars, I can't see why that couldn't be done with world leaders.

[ Parent ]
Seattle Story (none / 0) (#96)
by lucidvein on Thu Jun 16, 2005 at 09:25:17 PM EST

There is a really good article the the Seattle Weekly that illustrates precisely how unprepared the elected officials in Seattle were for the tremendous turnout. And points out how ineffectively their tactics changed to match those of the protestors.
http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0522/050601_news_stamper.php
And how's this for reassurance? The head of the local Secret Service office told the mayor and me at a meeting in Schell's office just moments before kickoff: "If things turn to shit it won't be for of a lack of planning." As a matter of fact, he had "never seen a better job of planning and preparation."
<snip>
The mayor was there, so was Washington governor Gary Locke, Chief Annette Sandberg of the Washington State Patrol, King County Sheriff Dave Reichert, and a couple of feds who were in town to do advance work for the president's visit. Clinton was due in late that night. The meeting had one item on its agenda: whether to declare a state of emergency and call in National Guard troops. Tension in the room was palpable, as you might expect with a city under siege. But there was also an undercurrent of something else.

http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0522/050601_news_stamper_profile.php
The WTO debacle brought down Seattle Police Chief Norm Stamper, one of America's most progressive cops. Now he's published a memoir offering a frank look at his rise and fall, and the challenges of reforming law enforcement.

I expect you are correct though, and like Seattle, Edinburgh becomes the next big news riot. Sorry...

Wonder why they don't just hold these events on a cruise ship or aircraft carrier somewhere away from the cities. Maybe by 2015 they'll be held on the new MoonBase? heh.

Weapons of Glass Destruction (none / 0) (#121)
by crashandburn on Wed Jun 22, 2005 at 08:48:00 PM EST

It's interesting to see how meticulously the authorities are taking the protest marches in Edinburgh. While on the bus today, I passed the location of the old Napier University science block (1960's style concrete and glass building topped off with a rusty red satellite dish on the roof), and saw workmen inspecting the field and removing every single stone or block that could possibly be used as a projectile.

haha (none / 0) (#123)
by soart on Tue Jun 28, 2005 at 12:43:37 PM EST

Coupled with the fact that the overwhelming majority of the protestors are peaceful people with a genuine greivance and aims that I wholeheartedly support.
机票打折机票
The G8 comes to Scotland - and so does Bob. | 123 comments (103 topical, 20 editorial, 0 hidden)
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