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[P]
Breeding Fear and Intolerance

By D Jade in Op-Ed
Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:54:54 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

I've noticed lately that the Australian media is trying so hard to brew a culture of hate and fear towards the Muslim communities in this country with sensational articles about their so-called extremism. The problem with all of these claims by the media is that many of them are plainly untrue or completely innacurate.


Take, for example, a recent article, "Gang's web of evil", published in the Herald Sun. The first paragraph reads like this:

AUTHORITIES are investigating a website on which thugs boast of murder, drug dealing and violent assaults.
The Westside Turks website, which claims to have up to 120 gang members, boasts of beating up "skips" (caucasian Australians), stabbing people at Melbourne nightclubs, attacking rival gangs with machetes and bashing a truckie with a baseball bat.

Now, unfortunately the Westside Turks website is no longer online or in Google Cache, so I can't link to it. However, I had read much of the site a few weeks before this article was published. It was clearly a joke website. However, the Herald decided to run with the story and made claims that were just plainly untrue. Now, the implication that the Herald makes is clear to anyone in Australia; Turkish equals Muslim equal Terrorist.

It wasn't until a recent episode of Mediawatch on ABC discussed the Herald article in a piece called "Website Turks laugh on" that my suspicions on the article's validity were confirmed. This is more than a case of misinterpretation. The author of the Herald article told outright lies in this article and there has been no retraction issued by the paper.

On the same episode of Mediawatch they discussed a story that aired on Channel Seven's Today Tonight, "Us against you". You can read the transcript of the Mediawatch article here.

Basically, three Muslim youths worked with a man on a "documentary" about being Muslim in Australia. However, the resulting article painted them in a completely different light. Most importantly was the editing of a statement on integration. What channel 7 showed the youth as saying was "We will never integrate". The actual statement was:

"we will never integrate, the way other communities integrate purely because of the fact that you have to draw a line with what your idea of integration is and what our idea of integration and accepting the practices of other people are."

Fair enough. Our government takes pride in calling this a multicultural country. But this could be anything further from the truth when it comes to actually tolerating other cultures. Take the Orthodox Jewish community in South Caulfield Melbourne as an example. They close down their businesses for Shabat and live very traditional Jewish lifestyles. They cannot fully integrate into society, just as many Muslims cannot. However, our media doesn't see fit to publish an article discussing how they oppose our way of life.

This kind of irresponsible reporting is only going to create extreme attitudes. It's already broadening the gap between the Muslim population and the white (Christian) Australian population. It's now bred a deep mistrust of the media in the Muslim community.

Now the government has jumped on the bandwagon, saying that there is no place for extreme views that oppose Australian values. They're now having similar discussion to those held by the Blair government since the London bombings took place. There's a call for "tougher anti-terrorism" laws such as creating the new offence of fomenting terrorism. There's even been discussions of deporting people with extreme views. But the question is where would we send them?

Adem Somyurek pointed the simple impossibilities of imposing such a law on SBS's Insight program:

"Look, that's the thing. Where do they go? I was born in Turkey, for example. If I turn into an extremist, or whatever we call it, we're talking about language here, why should Turkey take me?"

This push to ban extremism is extremism in itself. Laws of this kind should not be about deporting people and preventing terrorism, they should be about discouraging attitudes of hate and discrimination towards any one group within our society that may lead to terrorism. Laws like this should be created to ensure that the moderate majority in Australia are fairly and accurately represented.

But who decides what is an acceptable extreme view and what is not? This week, we've had Liberal backbenchers calling for a ban on the wearing of headscarves in state schools. In making her case, backbencher Sophie Panopoulos stated that the wearing of the Hijab was an "iconic act of defiance". She must have been really proud with that little catch phrase.

The problem with this issue is that it had enough support in the Liberal party to be raised in the public debate. In his response to the debate, one of the main points that Mr Howard made was that it would be impractical to impose such a ban saying, "If you ban a headscarf you might, for consistency's sake, have to ban a ... turban." He's right, it is impractical because, for consistency's sake, you would also have to ban Kippot and the crucifix and a whole other range of clothing and accessories with religious symbology.

The government would also have to reword their proposal to deport people with extreme "anti-Australian" views as well, because they themselves would also be on the boat. The fact is that taking a person's right to freely express themselves, religiously or otherwise, is undemocratic and goes against the values this society has taught its children. It will only breed further hate and create even more division in the community.

Further Reading:


Australia-hating Muslims unchecked, says teacher (The Age)
Gang's web of evil (Herald Sun)
Bishop backs ban on Muslim headscarves (SMH)
Push to ban headscarves divisive: Dems (SMH)
Newsbreak Summary
Extreme Measures (Insight)

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Related Links
o Google
o Gang's web of evil
o Website Turks laugh on
o here
o Insight
o Australia- hating Muslims unchecked, says teacher (The Age)
o Gang's web of evil (Herald Sun)
o Bishop backs ban on Muslim headscarves (SMH)
o Push to ban headscarves divisive: Dems (SMH)
o Newsbreak Summary
o Extreme Measures (Insight)
o Also by D Jade


Display: Sort:
Breeding Fear and Intolerance | 284 comments (223 topical, 61 editorial, 0 hidden)
Muslims are sketchy extremists (1.00 / 20) (#1)
by Glutamine on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:26:18 PM EST

what is written is true and you only stick up for them because you have mental problems

guess who destroyed britain?  hint   it wasnt white people buddy

Oh dear (none / 1) (#2)
by D Jade on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:38:53 PM EST

What a pathetic excuse for a troll you are, if that's the best you can come up with.

Clearly, the only mental problem I have is trying to comprehend how someone as idiotic as yourself is allowed to breathe the same air as I am.

The reason I am drawing attention to the inaccuracies in the portrayal of Muslims is because it's clear that most people don't even understand their religion and know nothing about their local Muslim community. People like you for example.

And Britain destroyed itself by stretching its empire too far.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

It's possible he's talking about the July bombs (none / 0) (#27)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 05:23:14 AM EST

In which case he'd also be wrong because britain wasn't destroyed and as far as we know the perps were Brits (even if muslim and extremist)....

--------------
Have A Nice Day may have reentered the building.
[ Parent ]
Hmmm... Possibly (none / 0) (#128)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:03:11 PM EST

But the only fall of Britain I know of is of their empire.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
i see your point, really. (none / 0) (#256)
by retroseventies on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 04:33:36 PM EST

And i mean that to seem in no way patronising. I think that the fall that he is talking about is the ethnicizing of the inner cities (birmningham, coventry, bradford, leeds and others) particularly with indians, pakistanis and bangladeshis. Not a bad thing in itself in any way, they have added tremedous variety and richness to the character of these cities, but recently there has been much concern about pro fundametalist leanings, a disregard for traditional law and order, with some talk even of a separate islamic state existing. I am all in favour of integration - my marriage is a multiculturale one, i am white and my wife is not, but integration means just that. In order to be part of a society, you must adhere to it's laws and be part of it - by all means let your spiritual beliefs be strong, but religion should be your own issue, not one that drives you to divide a community, a city, or a country.

[ Parent ]
You know what the real problem is? (none / 1) (#280)
by ae on Tue Sep 13, 2005 at 09:20:04 PM EST

Ignorance.

As simple as that. The world is full of it and that's not surprising. It tends to be alot easier to follow what the media dictates, rather than to read and make up your own mind.

Isn't it just so simple to be an ignorant sheep, believing anyone that doesn't have the same views as you must be wrong?

In Australia especially, people have the 'fortune' to be surrounded by individuals of very varied backgrounds, cultures and religions. It's only when you have this opportunity that you see where people are coming from. And not just that, but you quckly realize how futile stereotyping is. Just because a small group of individuals decide to be extremists, doesn't mean everyone else who has the same basis of belief thinks/acts alike.

Not everyone of a certain ethnic background is a radical extremist, so it would be great if people stopped having that fucked up mentality.



[ Parent ]
Wrong on all counts (1.71 / 7) (#3)
by nailgun on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 11:04:48 PM EST

Hate and discrimination are useful tools in the struggle to maintain civilization. It is right and just to hate and discrimitate against serial rapists or genocidal dictators, just as it is with religious extremists.

In the future, as resource depletion and climate change pose greater and greater threats to humanity, people will be more tempted than ever to reject science and reason and embrace primitive superstition. This is why it is so vital to act now, while there is still liberty left to protect.

One cannot tolerate and reason with religous extremism any more than on can tolerate and reason with smallpox or a hooting pack of starving hyenas. This is a fight that must be won, and that means that if, for the greater good, the tender sensibilites of simpering liberals must be sacrificed like Iphigenia on the Trojan shore*, then bring on the big stabbin' knife.

*Or wherever it was, too lazy to google.

Fair enough (3.00 / 3) (#5)
by D Jade on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 11:24:02 PM EST

That's fine and well. But the general perception the media is trying to instill in the population is that ALL Muslims are extremists, which is blatantly untrue.

If the media clearly stipulated that the views of a few extremists does not reflect the views of the moderate majority, then I'd have no problem with it.

However, what you are suggesting is nothing short of gestapo... We may as well all give them yellow arm patches now...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Moderates? (1.33 / 3) (#17)
by NaCh0 on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 03:42:41 AM EST

If the so-called moderate muslims would publically speak out against and disown the crackpot muslims we might not have stories like these.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.
[ Parent ]
But they do (none / 0) (#20)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 03:52:42 AM EST

You should read the second referenced article from mediawatch before you claim that they don't.

The media is the problem. There are too many instances where they have spoken out and their statements have been shown out of context or they have been completely misrepresented by the media. The other problem is that the media at large will not give air time to moderate Muslims for the same reasons that moderate Christians and such don't get air time. Or am I wrong? Is the USA really just full of right-wing Christian wackos intent on global domination?

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Bullshit (none / 0) (#132)
by lordDogma on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:34:14 PM EST

the general perception the media is trying to instill in the population is that ALL Muslims are extremists

Bullshit. Stop being intellectually dishonest.

If the media clearly stipulated that the views of a few extremists does not reflect the views of the moderate majority

Why is it that everytime we hear about a "moderate" Muslim leader, we find out that the "moderate" Muslim leader has a dark history of preaching hatred and terror? I don't want "moderate". "Moderate" muslims still want to kill me. I want "reformed".

However, what you are suggesting is nothing short of gestapo

Lol. How did I know that was coming?

[ Parent ]

No Shit... (none / 0) (#139)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:14:05 PM EST

Bullshit. Stop being intellectually dishonest.

Let me rephrase... The AUSTRALIAN media... Which I'm sure you don't have any exposure to.

Listen to some talkback radio and watch some mainstream news programs in this country. Look at the treatment of the Muslim community. If you can honestly say that the Muslim community is accurately represented in this country, then I would ask you to actually go and visit some members of the Muslim community and speak to them. If you can still say that it is an accurate representation of their community, then you are seriously twisted.

Why is it that everytime we hear about a "moderate" Muslim leader, we find out that the "moderate" Muslim leader has a dark history of preaching hatred and terror? I don't want "moderate". "Moderate" muslims still want to kill me. I want "reformed".

The only moderate Muslim leaders I have heard have been on a recent episode of Insight which is a show on SBS. It's the multicultural channel and caters for all of the non-English nationalities that make up Australia. The only leaders that make it onto the commercial outlets are the extreme ones. Why? Simple... It's better for the ratings. The news in this country is not about facts... It's about sensation. Check out the two mediawatch articles that are referenced and tell me how either of the original articles are accurate? For starters, the first one is an outright lie because the website was a joke and the police had never even spoken to said reporters.

Lol. How did I know that was coming?

Lol. Because it's patently obvious that the suggestion was nothing short of it...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Good point... good WRONG point. (none / 0) (#135)
by nailgun on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:41:55 PM EST

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. If a few innocent toes must be stepped on so the nation can survive, so be it. Let history be our judge.

As recent evenys in New Orleans show, the veneer of human civilization in one micron thick. All it takes is a single minor setback for society to descend into barbarism, and liberal niceties become as superfluous as all the other frilly effluvia of our refined times, to be abandoned along with the designer sofa and stereo system as the flood waters close in.

When times are good, and larders fat, then it is indeed a fine thing to prance about having little debates about rights and human dignity. But when times are bad, the only rule is EAT or BE EATEN. And right about now, globally speaking, times are about to get very, very bad.

[ Parent ]
So Muslim extremism is good too, right? (none / 0) (#266)
by D Jade on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 11:19:34 PM EST

After all, the so-called terrorists are actually fighting for freedom as well. All of us hypodemocrits seem to forget that they are as scared of us as we are them...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Yeah, civilization, that's the ticket! (none / 1) (#30)
by ksandstr on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 05:43:54 AM EST

Hate and discrimination are useful tools in the struggle to maintain civilization. It is right and just to hate and discrimitate against serial rapists or genocidal dictators, just as it is with religious extremists.
And what a wonderfully civil society you have over there in the US ov thee A with this eminently selective adherence to law.

[ Parent ]
Ya gotta admit (2.33 / 6) (#7)
by QuantumG on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:19:57 AM EST

It's not exactly easy to invoke fear in Australias as it appears to be to do the same in USians. Sure, our politicians are as good as any at suggesting kneejerk reactions, but Australians tend to shrug off any perceived threat.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
Yeah I know (none / 0) (#8)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:29:39 AM EST

Not just threats, but anything. We just don't care.

The problem with this apathy though is that we don't do anything and then complain at what's happened. All of the time we complain about how fucked up something is. But if we as a society got up off of our asses and actually paid attention and gave a shit in the first place, everything would be okay.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Shya (none / 0) (#15)
by QuantumG on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 03:24:43 AM EST

We'd be like the US. Micromanaging everyone's lives so that nothing bad ever happens to us. Live and let live is a good philosophy.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
[ Parent ]
Er... (none / 0) (#16)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 03:28:13 AM EST

We don't manage anything though, as it is, our government is spineless and some of the hatred that should be directed towards the USA ends up aimed at us... That's not cool...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
She'll be right, mate. (none / 0) (#243)
by Russell Dovey on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:00:15 AM EST

I could care about what you're saying, or I could drink beer and watch the cricket.

<glug-glug> Go Warnie!

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

Does anyone else worry that (2.50 / 2) (#9)
by your_desired_username on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:41:48 AM EST

some moron will take Poopy's stories (just one example) seriously, and think k5 is a website for criminal rapists, or some horseshit?

I would but... (none / 0) (#10)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:44:13 AM EST

Even Herald journos couldn't overlook the F-1ction sign at the top of the page...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
prioritization (2.00 / 7) (#11)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:54:33 AM EST

the real problem is that muslim extremism is on the rise in the world. the problem you describe is a secondary effect of that larger problem

hating and fearing all muslims because of what a few wackjobs do is inevitable by retards in the west. so what do you think is a better use of your resources? running around fighting what low iq morons think? or actually solving the root problem? while you work hard attempting to stem the flow of ignorance, i would actually like to spend my time fighting the actual living breathing fundamentalist extremists who are on the rise in the world. then when they are defeated, the distracted morons in the west go back to doing what they do best: watching tv

so while you bandaid what some retards in the west think of muslims, there are still muslim fundamentalist extremists bombing new york, bali, spain, london, etc. don't you think that is the real problem? the source of all of the western idiot's thoughts? don't you think that if the muslim extremism subsides then what morons in the west think of all muslims will fade?

so, if you would like to solve the problem you speak of, you would fight muslim extremism

that magic word is called: prioritization

prioritize your problems: actual muslims fanatics actually bombing the west are a bigger problem than the fears and hatred in the minds of some retards in the west

simple cause and effect is at work here. you need to attack the real problem, not the side effects of the real problem


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Your definition of fighting the problem is flawed (2.50 / 6) (#12)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 02:35:24 AM EST

The reason many people have turned to terrorism is because their homes and families got bombed by big planes flown by dumb Americans. Your efforts in fighting them has caused more terrorism than stopped it.

Maybe it is inevitable that retards will hate all Muslims. However, that's not a cause for justification. "Well, they will hate the Muslims anyway, so we may as well incite more hatred." Good logic CTS.

Solving the root of the problem is all good and well. But the fact is that those "wackjobs" that carried out the bombings were not from a faraway land. They were British citizens. So ensuring that the local Muslim population does not feel alienated would do more to solve the root of the problems than harming innocent civillians in a Iraq et cetera.

Meanwhile, if smart people did fight to stem the flow of ignorance they would be fighting fundamentalists, because their actions would stop more people from moving to the extreme.

The fact is CTS, that we have had the bombings in new york, bali, spain, london and have already happened. There is nothing we can do to stop them, and you're a fool if you believe fighting people on the other side of the world is going to help prevent further attacks. Your idea would only increase the chances of such a thing happening again. I can't believe you would be so naive.

I do think that putting and end to Muslim extremism would change the perception in the West. But that's clearly not what we are doing. We're just making the situation worse.

Here's a little thought about prioritisation; my priorities lie with my community, my state and my country. They lie with the people I have to exist with every day first and foremost. I believe that inciting hatred in my community is counteractive to this. Actual Muslims bombing the west is not the real problem in this country, or your's. There has been no bombings on my soil and there have been no bombings in four years on your's.

But you believe that it is more important to create even more hatred of your country and our way of life; and people wonder why everyone hates the US so much?

You're right, we do need to attack the real problem. It's just a shame that you have no fucking clue what the real problem is.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

shallow, ethnocentric, patronizing (1.00 / 3) (#23)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 04:17:05 AM EST

your arrogance and condescencion just blows my mind. you counteract your own words in two or three sentences:

"The reason many people have turned to terrorism is because their homes and families got bombed by big planes flown by dumb Americans."

versus

"But the fact is that those "wackjobs" that carried out the bombings were not from a faraway land. They were British citizens."

do you see the contradiction? work it out, you'll get there someday

"ensuring that the local Muslim population does not feel alienated would do more to solve the root of the problems"

uh... no, stopping muslim fundamentalists from bombing and killing westerners might go a lot farther to fighting feelings of "alienation." fuck me with a pogo stick: muslims feel "alienated"... so they bomb us (!?)... so we must coddle them (!!??) are you for real? people like you just blow my fucking mind

you attack the ROOT of the problem. the ROOT of the problem is FUNDAMENTALISM. notice i didn't say MUSLIM fundamentalism. because it has nothing to do with islam. it's about bigotry and intolerance. it just happens to have it's ROOT from the ARAB WORLD. and you think you can solve this problem by not criticizing anyone outside your world?! (smacks forehead)

ethnocentric fools like you, you can only understand the actions of people from outside your culture in terms of what your own culture did. this patronization, condescension. when i look at an arab, i see a human being. what do you see? a cardboard cut out reflections of western actions. it simply blows my mind how shallow and ethnocentric you are. THERE IS A BIG WORLD OUT THERE. WHY DON'T YOU TRY LOOKING AT PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE WEST AS MORE THAN REFLECTION OF THE WEST YOU PREJUDICAL FUCK.

accountability, responsibility: i look at the arab world and arabs and i expect them to take care of their own. and if they don't, if their wackjobs come to our shores and attack us, then we will help moderate muslims there fight the fundamentalists HURTING THEM. and they will THANK US FOR HELPING THEM. because muslim fundamentalists hurt your average muslim a LOT more than they hurt anyone in the west

i understand that

your average moderate muslim (99% of muslims) understands that

YOU FUCKING DON'T

you GO to egypt, iraq, indonesia, pakistan... you talk to REAL MUSLIMS about the kind of people we are fighting. you listen to THEM to tell you we need to fight them. understand you blind provincial fuck?

"Here's a little thought about prioritisation; my priorities lie with my community, my state and my country."

that's obvious, your words are utterly provincial. so, having admitted what you just said, STOP COMMENTING ON WHAT YOU, BY YOUR OWN WORDS, DON'T UNDERSTAND

this is the problem before you: fundamentalism from the muslim world attacks west. this is your solution: only focus on the west, only criticize the west. this is my solution: criticize the ROOT OF THE FUCKING PROBLEM

if you have PROBLEM before you, you have to define the SYSTEM in which the problem works. you want to focus only on one CORNER of the system, and think doing so will solve a problem whose dynamics range OUTSIDE OF YOUR DEFINED AREA OF FOCUS: i repeat: "my priorities lie with my community, my state and my country"

well then friend, with your own words, you've removed your ability to solve the problem, or even comment on it effectively. your own words defeat you

does 9/11 cause christian fundamentalism? no. if you understand that, why can't you understand that about muslim fundamentalism? you honestly believe muslim fundamentalism is caused by abu ghraib? guantanamo? you HONESTLY fucking believe that? how shallow are you? a person's relationship with an ancient revered element of their culture is modulated by the whims of gw bush? WTF? so if a muslim fundie blows up the building i work in i will rethink how i feel about chrisitianity?! THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME IN REVERSE

you are so fucking shallow and provincial and patronizing of muslims. to you, they are not people, they are pastoral lambs to be coddled, or alternately, lightning strikes or tsunamis we cannot fight or understand. THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS. LIKE YOU AND ME. ACCOUNTABILITY. RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT EMANATES FORM THEIR SOCIETIES. A GOOD NEIGHBOR HELPS HIS NEIGHBOR PUT THE FIRE IN HIS HOUSE OUT. YOUR IDEA IS TO IGNORE THE FIRE. fuck you're so ethnocentric!!!

"The fact is CTS, that we have had the bombings in new york, bali, spain, london and have already happened. There is nothing we can do to stop them"

in my world there is. the difference between you and i is that i see the people who perpetrate these attacks are, in fact, PEOPLE, not empty reflections of western actions. there is more going on in the arab world than cardboard cut out characters fighting the usa because the cia killed che guevara or because the usa didn't sign the kyoto protocol

who are muslim fundamentalists? are they simply reflections of western crimes from the cold war era? that's what you are telling us. you are unbelievably shallow and ethnocentric

what are muslim fundamentalists in your mind? shark attacks or lightning strikes? i repeat YOUR WORDS:

"There is nothing we can do to stop them"

oh yes there is fool, oh yes there is, for the good muslims, for your good

you're just too shallow and ethnocentric and patronizing to see that


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you're confused (2.50 / 2) (#50)
by speek on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:22:43 AM EST

Specifically, you're confused about the difference between fighting a group of people vs fighting a worldview or concept. You might kill all the fundamentalists, but it would only make fundamentalism stronger.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

that's total bullshit (1.00 / 2) (#63)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:05:47 AM EST

start: fundamentalists engage in act of violence.

let us examine our options:

1. appease. give them what they want.
fundamentalists cite this as proof that their tactics work

2. do nothing. let them fade away.
fundamentalists call you weak, continue to breed

3. attack. try to root them out.
fundamentalists continue to hate and resent you

so which is it einstein?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

4. defend and move on (3.00 / 3) (#91)
by speek on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:18:01 PM EST

Plug gaping security holes previously exploited, and move on. The moving on involves all sorts of activities like developing alternative energies, educating people (helps reduce homegrown fundamentalism), etc. Fundamentalists continue to hate and resent us, but, quite frankly, if we stop presenting ourselves as a target, they will eventually begin targetting each other. Bin Laden would really prefer to be conducting his acts of terrorism against Saudi Arabia. Shites would rather kill Sunnis, Sunnis would rather kills Kurds, etc. And no, I don't particularly care if they do.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

ah yes ;-) (none / 1) (#96)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:47:43 PM EST

hitler will never attack us, he just cares about europe, right?

you fail to see megalomania when it is at work

what does osama bin laden WANT

what does a fundamentalist WANT: christian, muslim, or jewish

THEY WANT THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD TO GOOSESTEP TO THEIR INSANITY AND THEY WILL KILL TO DO IT

the people who bombed new york, london, madrid, bali, etc. will NEVER stip trying to conduct violence on innocents to further their goals

Shites would rather kill Sunnis, Sunnis would rather kills Kurds, etc. And no, I don't particularly care if they do.

is this supposed to convince of anything except how provincial and ethnocentric you are? human rights ends at the rio grande?

hutus killing tutsis and tutsis killing hutus: what do we do? yawn?

WE GET INVOLVED

BECAUSE WE FUCKING CARE

do you know wha tthe difference between you and i is

I HAVE A FUCKING HUMAN CONSCIENCE


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you're right about one thing (3.00 / 4) (#108)
by speek on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 06:36:35 PM EST

You do have a fucking human conscience. When your conscience gets going, humans get fucked.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

CTS, you need to learn to READ (none / 1) (#137)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:04:49 PM EST

Stop dealing in absolutes.

The first two paragraphs you cited are exactly that. Paragraphs. They are making two separate points. That's what they are for. You just use them to make line breaks so that it looks like you are saying more than you actually are.

The first paragraph was in reference to the fact that there is more suicide bombings in Iraq now because of our respective countries' occuptation and their actions during said occupation.

The second cited paragraph referred to the London bombings. Drawing attention to the fact that the people who carried out the acts in Britain were british citizens and that the chances of such an attack occuring in the UK could be lessened by ensuring that the Muslim population is not pushed to the extreme, as you are advocating they should be.

Two unrelated points which you have so appropriately taken out of context. They do not contradict each other because they are referring to two separate occurrences. I don't know what caused those Brits to bomb their country. But I guess if I was so alienated, purely because of my religion, I'd probably want to do something about that too.

I am not saying that the only reason that terrorists are attacking is because they feel alienated. Our terrorist forces (led by the US) are apparently attacking for freedom and democracy, right?

My point is that by pushing people to the edges of society makes them more susceptible to such extreme methods of action.

Like I've said in other posts, if you want to attack the ROOT of the problem, then attack it. But the ROOT is not terrorism, it is fundamentalism. This exists on both sides of the fence. The fact is that the fundamental perception of Islam in the West is turban wearing Jihadists with bombs strapped to them. This is a FUNDAMENTALLY flawed perception, because it is an outright lie.

I am not ethnocentric. I live in a highly multicultural community. I work and play with people of all religious persuasions and ethnic backgrounds. I understand that the majority of these do not advocate violence, they deplore it in fact. My convictions come after much discussion, research and thought on the issues that I have been faced with in my community and in relation to the rest of the world.

THERE IS A BIG WORLD OUT THERE. WHY DON'T YOU TRY LOOKING AT PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE WEST AS MORE THAN REFLECTION OF THE WEST YOU PREJUDICAL FUCK.

Damn fucking straight! And once again the pathetic CTS wastes a whole fucking post on accusing me of being what he is. Mate, I shouldn't even have to reply to you, except to cut and paste your words and return them to you. There's a whole world out there and you can't even see it.

Your average moderate Muslim believes that criminals should be shown justice. You believe that all Muslims should be punished because of a miniscule fragment of their population.

you GO to egypt, iraq, indonesia, pakistan... you talk to REAL MUSLIMS about the kind of people we are fighting. you listen to THEM to tell you we need to fight them. understand you blind provincial fuck?

I bet you've never been to any of these countries CTS. I lived in Malaysia with my family for a year, before all of this crap occurred. I still have family living there and visit them at least once or twice every year. That is a Muslim country. I have also visited Indonesia several times given its close proximity and agreeable climate.

I'm not a fucking tourist like you. When I go to these countries I actually walk out of my hotel and into the streets and talk to real people that aren't paid to be nice to me. It kind of helps that I'm not American, because it reduces the chance of me getting killed by about 95%.

The fact is that the people in these countries, by and large, want what we want. Food and shelter, financial freedom and health and long life.

The store in my appartment building in KL is operated by a family. I used to talk with one of the girls down there often when I'd go out for a smoke. She once pointed out when I came back from the shops one day that the jacket that I had purchased for 90RN (AUD$30) was two weeks of her wages.

Fucking think about that CTS. How would you feel having to serve someone who spends two week's worth of your wages on one item? How would you feel when they are standing there remarking on how cheap that is? Personally, I'd feel a little exploited. I'd feel pretty worthless, and guess what? That's exactly what she felt...

Our Chinese neighbours in KL had four maids who were imported from Indonesia (yes, imported). They lived in the laundry and slept on the floor. The shower was a hole in the wall in the corner. This laundry room was no larger than 4 by 3 meters. My wardrobe is bigger than that! They each got paid 300RN a month. That's 100 dollars. They didn't get any days off and would work from morning to night.

How would you feel waking up every morning in 35 degree heat, sweating like a pig and surrounded in the filth of three other people? EVERY DAY! How would you feel when you opened the door into the main, air-conditioned, house? How would you feel serving people who are no better than you but treat you worse than a dog?

If you had ever actually witnessed the exploitation that goes on and seen what the west looks like from the opposite side, you would be humbled my friend. These people don't want to see an end to our culture. They don't want to kill us all. They just want the same oppurtunities and freedoms (like medicine and education) that we take for granted.

Sorry CTS, but you disgust me... You are the lowest form of filth I've ever encountered... Fucking pigs like you are the reason that the world is so fucked up... Just kill yourself now and spare us all the pain of having to listen to your insantiy... Get help...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

somewhat disagree (3.00 / 2) (#29)
by army of phred on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 05:40:24 AM EST

The fact is CTS, that we have had the bombings in new york, bali, spain, london and have already happened. There is nothing we can do to stop them, and you're a fool if you believe fighting people on the other side of the world is going to help prevent further attacks. Your idea would only increase the chances of such a thing happening again. I can't believe you would be so naive.

Unfortunately its not just cts, the new reality is the same as the old, that humanity favors war and will find any rationalization to engage in it. All cts is displaying is the animalistic urge to kill others not like him.

Get with the times, go kill your neighbor.

"Republicans are evil." lildebbie
"I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about." motormachinemercenary
"my wife is getting a blowjob" ghostoft1ber
[ Parent ]

i want to help moderate muslims (1.00 / 2) (#35)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 07:09:53 AM EST

defend themselves

whatever fundamentalist extremists are doing to the west, what they are doing to moderate muslims is worse

so you take it to the arab world, the source of the problem, you HELP MODERATE MUSLIMS IN THEIR FIGHT

do i want to kill people?

i want to stop the assholes who want to kill people!

tell me how to do that without breaking any eggs

who i am and what i believe does not fit your jingoisitic description of me

you need to stop thinking in 1 dimensional constructs of the people and motivations and intent around you


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

No you don't! (3.00 / 2) (#131)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:25:28 PM EST

Okay, firstly, I will say that if you are willing to stand by that conviction, you will actually shutup for once and listen to what other people have to say. If you really want to help the moderates in this world, you will hear what they are saying and consider their point of view and maybe even try to understand where they are coming from.

But this is not what you do. You just launch vicious attacks on anyone who doesn't absolutely agree with you. That's fine too, but you can't even back up your claims with any factual evidence. Not once have I ever seen you utter a provable claim... not once. i want to help moderate muslims defend themselves

If you really wanted to help, you would understand that the most effective way to help your fellow countrymen (muslims) would be to speak out AGAINST the stereotypes and lies about their culture and the general perception that all Muslims are terrorists.

whatever fundamentalist extremists are doing to the west, what they are doing to moderate muslims is worse

What about what you are doing to moderates?

so you take it to the arab world, the source of the problem, you HELP MODERATE MUSLIMS IN THEIR FIGHT

Yes, the middle east is part of the problem. So is the west, and so is your attitude. You think on this unidirectional plane of thought and you can't consider any other avenues aside from violence. That makes you a serious problem in this equation.

do i want to kill people?

i want to stop the assholes who want to kill people!

But that's you CTS. You just don't get it. Throughout this whole conversation, your only advocacy is for war in the Middle East. You disagree that part of this battle is the representation of the moderate majority that is the Muslim population. You oppose more accurate representation of this group. The fact is that one weapon of war is propoganda. The current propoganda is going to lead to people of Muslim descent being locked up, like the Japanese were during the war. But you're fine with that? You actually even say that your incitations of violence are in order to help these normal Muslim people? Christ!

tell me how to do that without breaking any eggs

You can't. But that's not the point. If you have a dozen eggs, you should try and conserve as many of them as you can. Some will be broken, that's a given. However, you advocate taking the whole carton and throwing it off the balcony and breaking all of the eggs. The reality is that if you want to fight Muslim extremists, you can do this while only breaking the one rotten egg in the pack. The other eleven eggs (the overwhelming mmoderate Muslim majority) do not need to be cracked in the process. However, you would rather see all of the good eggs go rotten as well.

who i am and what i believe does not fit your jingoisitic description of me

I really don't give a damn who you are CTS. However, the description of you that Phred made is totally accurate when viewed in relation to the insane platitudes you constantly spout.

you need to stop thinking in 1 dimensional constructs of the people and motivations and intent around you

You need to stop calling the kettle black my friend. You are the most one dimensional entity in this conversation. You cannot consider anyone's point of view unless it is advocating outright war on the east. The reality is that I somewhat agree with you. We do need to fight extremism. However, changing the minds of people is not done by smashing their skills on the pavement and letting their brains drip out into the gutter. It is done by coercing them to your point of view... Then again subtlety and eloquence has never, and will never, be your forte I'm afraid.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

mischaracterisation of 'the problem' (3.00 / 9) (#18)
by nml on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 03:49:04 AM EST

the real problem is that muslim extremism is on the rise in the world. the problem you describe is a secondary effect of that larger problem

That's entirely debatable. Certainly awareness of muslim extremism is extremely high, but is the 'fear and intolerance' problem caused by muslim extremism (which has been entrenched for decades) or the media portrayal of it? Speaking as an Australian, i certainly agree that our media is flooding us with stories that attempt to show Muslims as a threat of late. None of which seem to have an actual point beyond propaganda.

prioritize your problems: actual muslims fanatics actually bombing the west are a bigger problem than the fears and hatred in the minds of some retards in the west

There are only a small number of muslim extremists compared to the numbers of 'retards in the west'. It seems pretty clear that the reactions of western society aren't reducing muslim extremism and are causing problems of their own. And how exactly is D Jade going to eliminate muslim extremism? We live in the real world, and someone will always be unhappy enough to commit acts of terrorism, unfortunately, no matter who tries to stop it. Managing how we react to extremism is thus important, and the recent spate of ridiculous articles don't seem to be a very positive response. And, on a more philosophical note, perhaps a little less intolerance would help toward a world with less extremism.



[ Parent ]
Spot on! (none / 1) (#21)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 03:54:50 AM EST

So very eloquently put.

If this article gets canned, I'll be sure to discuss this in my rewrite.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

yes, spot on (1.00 / 3) (#25)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 04:32:13 AM EST

spot on a point of complete insanity:

you can solve a problem by focusing only on a small corner of the dynamics of the system

HOW???!!!

here is a problem:

i hit jack, jack hits me, i hit jack, jack hits me, etc...

you're idea is to only criticize my actions

what does it mean to you that jack continues to whack me on the head?

your entire pov is batshiat crazy

how do you solve a problem by ignoring large sections of it's dynamic?

i ask you that in complete honesty:

HOW DO YOU SOLVE A PROBLEM BY IGNORING LARGE SECTIONS OF IT'S DYNAMIC?

answer me that question, slay my opposition to you forever by answering that blindingly obvious point you so blithely ignore


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Very off-topic, but... (3.00 / 4) (#31)
by Ashura on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 06:21:54 AM EST

To me, your posts always remind me of the angry squirrel, Foamy, from the Flash cartoon Neurotically Yours. Something about your writing style -- the short bursts of anger liberally deliminated by newlines -- seems to translate well into the way Foamy's high-speed chipmunk-pitched rants sound.

Not to put you in a bad light or anything; just wanted to let you know.

[ Parent ]

very descriptive (3.00 / 4) (#116)
by QuantumG on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:26:03 PM EST

They just remind me of an illiterate fuckstick who has no concept of history.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
[ Parent ]
BY SPEAKING ENGLISH n/t (3.00 / 2) (#32)
by tweetsybefore on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 06:58:31 AM EST



I'm racist and I hate niggers.
[ Parent ]
Well your suggestion is narrow (3.00 / 4) (#127)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:02:23 PM EST

Mine is broader than your's by far because I am advocating that we treat the cause and not be the cause.

Think about the amount of money that we are spending on this so-called war on terror... Then think about the fact that in 2001, there were 42,900 deaths on US American roads. That's fourteen times as many people dead than in 9-11. That's 118 deaths EVERY day, and you're worried about terrorism?

Yeah, you hit Jack and he hit you back, so then you hit him again. Well, instead of hitting him, why not sit down and talk to him. Discuss the reasons that you hit him in the first place. Find out why he hit you back. Discuss what Jack can do to minimise the chance of you hitting him again. Listen to Jack and negotiate changes in yourself so that he won't feel the need to hit him back.

Your solution is to just hit him back everytime he hits you. You're happy to spiral downards in a vicious circle that will continue on and ever. Why not try and grow a brain and develop in yourself some behaviours other than violence?

Oh, that's right, you're an intolerant bigot who doesn't know anything other than your fists...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

thanks (none / 0) (#143)
by nml on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 12:50:29 AM EST

although you seem to have made FP instead of getting canned ;o)

[ Parent ]
True (none / 0) (#144)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 01:36:05 AM EST

I'm kind of shocked actually...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Yes, management is the key (1.25 / 4) (#22)
by NaCh0 on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 03:57:02 AM EST

Though your "management" is another name for appeasement.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.
[ Parent ]
i can't believe this (1.00 / 5) (#24)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 04:26:27 AM EST

so muslim fundamentalists are emanating from the west?

how do you solve a problem by ignoring a dynamic of the problem?

muslim fundamentalists are emanating from the arab world attacking targets in the west, and your point is to focus on western actions as culpable

i can't even begin to fathom how you think, how you even wake up in the morning

if your neighbor shoots your daughter, do you apologise to him for frowning at him that one time last month?

i simply cannot fathom how someone like you even gets through life

no really, talking to someone like you is like talking to an alien being who doesn't even live on this planet

to be so utterly blind to the spanking obvious

We live in the real world, and someone will always be unhappy enough to commit acts of terrorism, unfortunately, no matter who tries to stop it.

i agree 100%

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU DON'T FIGHT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

unfuckingbelieveable

muslim fundamentalists attack new york, london, bali, madrid

and you're worried about how the west acts

it's completely unfathomable to me

you are bewilderingly insane to me


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

-1, retard {N-T} (none / 0) (#134)
by flimflam on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:38:28 PM EST


-- I am always optimistic, but frankly there is no hope. --Hosni Mubarek
[ Parent ]
stop trying to expand the topic (3.00 / 4) (#142)
by nml on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 12:48:47 AM EST

so muslim fundamentalists are emanating from the west? how do you solve a problem by ignoring a dynamic of the problem?

no, muslim fundies seem to be emanating mainly from arab countries. But that's not my point at all, nor was it the point of the original article. The original article was discussing how the entire muslim community of Australia were being attacked by a series of vacuous articles in the Australian media claiming that Muslims are a threat.

I don't think there's much debate on the fact that 99.9% of Muslims represent no threat at all, especially in Australia, and that other social groups also contain members that are a threat to society. And not only are the fear and intolerance generally unfair, they're also not very productive, since fearful people seem unlikely to do anything useful to stop terrorism. They seem more likely to shoot innocent people instead.

muslim fundamentalists attack new york, london, bali, madrid and you're worried about how the west acts

I haven't suggested that terrorists shouldn't be dealt with - thats a seperate issue. However, increasing the general communities' prejudice against Muslims is unfair and counter-productive. We should always be concerned about how we act. Stop wailing about how we need to deal with muslim fundamentalists first - there's no point in attacking one problem if we're going to create more in the mean time, particularly since it's not a problem with a quick solution. Feel free to write articles about how to deal with the world's problems regarding terrorists, if that's how you feel.

And your 'Jack hits me, i hit Jack' analogy is completely innappropriate in this context, since the story says nothing about dealing with Jack, merely that you shouldn't go around abusing all of the people of the same social group as Jack just because he hit you.

i simply cannot fathom how someone like you even gets through life

and please stop frothing at the mouth now...



[ Parent ]
I guess this makes sense, (2.66 / 3) (#38)
by daani on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:19:47 AM EST

since as a nation of barely twenty million people Australia can hardly be expected to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Presumably you advocate leaving the citizens of New Orleans homeless while concentrates on the real problem of weather control?

[ Parent ]

you can do anything you want (none / 1) (#40)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:29:33 AM EST

but if you focus on weather control, don't think you're helping the residents of new orleans

likewise, if you focus on what morons in the west think of muslims, don't think you are fighting terrorism, fighting fundamentalist extremists, or doing much of anything about the problem

silly me, i'm using my mind to focus on the root of the problem, and solve the problem you are focusing on by extension

i think it's more useful to turn off the tap on the overflowing bathtub than tell my wife to stop getting so upset and neurotic because there is water seeping through the ceiling

wife=morons in the west

overflowing water=terrorism

in case you didn't get the allegory


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

CTS, you are the problem! (NT) (none / 0) (#129)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:05:34 PM EST



You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Well the thing about that is (none / 0) (#248)
by daani on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:05:12 PM EST

If turning off the bathroom tap was going to take years, wouldn't you put some effort into calming the wife down too?

Ok, maybe not the wife, but say the girlfriend's there instead.


[ Parent ]

How wrong (3.00 / 3) (#70)
by The Diary Section on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:57:39 AM EST

Yesterday 600 people died because they were scared of something that wasn't even there. Its not so much the actual terrorism acts (I think deaths on the roads of London have already outstripped the number killed in the bombings by today) its fear.

In short I think the priority is conquering the climate of fear, given that its that climate and not actually blowing up a few dozen people that the terrorists set as their main priority as well. Thats your cause and effect, you've got it completely back to front.

If we do what you are suggesting the terrorists have already won. Its a cliche because its true.

In my lifetime I've been present at a single terrorist atrocity. Even the chances of that were pretty low and we've had hundreds if not thousands of such incidents in our small country. I'd much rather my daily life wasn't affected than it was changed beyond recognition because of something that is in the end only a very remote possibility.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]

who said anything about fear? (none / 1) (#75)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:50:29 AM EST

and is it your attitude to treat the purposeful planned killing of innocents like car accidents?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
you did. (none / 0) (#90)
by The Diary Section on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:10:24 PM EST

actual muslims fanatics actually bombing the west are a bigger problem than the fears and hatred in the minds of some retards in the west
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]
i apologize (none / 1) (#94)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:39:41 PM EST

i meant what is fearful in MY words?

is fear my motivation?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

hmm (none / 1) (#123)
by The Diary Section on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:21:02 PM EST

I think you have me at cross-purposes.

The point at which terrorism acts isn't the physical, its the psychological obviously (its not the 60 killed its the 60 million who start changing their votes etc. because they are fearful). The action of terrorism is therefore at the level of the  average joe, and the more stupid he/she is the more effective it is. So really the mind of Joe Moron is precisely where we need to target effort as a priority. If we could wander around like Robert Duval on the beach in Apocalypse Now then they'd never bother in the first place because it wouldn't work. I think thats what a lot of people are trying to do, certainly in London of late. I'm sure you've figured this out but spare a thought for the Duct Tape purchasing fools in the Mid West.

I have no idea what your motivation is but I don't think its fear. Vengeance springs to mind possibly.
Its true there are some sorts of people who back down and go away if you beat the crap out of them (e.g., regular bullies and nation states), but I don't think radical islamic terrorists really fall into that camp.
Spend 10 minutes in the company of an American and you end up feeling like a Keats or a Shelley: Thin, brilliant, suave, and desperate for industrial-scale quantities of opium.
[ Parent ]

What if terrorism is just desparation? (none / 0) (#251)
by alba on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 05:21:39 PM EST

What if there is no strategy or master plan, no expectations of Western behaviour, no military or economical gains?

A lot of people are angry.
Some are really very angry.
Probably a few are completely mad.

If terrorism is done it out of sheer lunacy then all that talk about never conceding to their "demands" is bullshit.



[ Parent ]
Hurm, prioritization? (none / 1) (#107)
by levesque on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 06:35:05 PM EST

Synergies?

Military fundamentalism

Economic fundamentalism

Religious fundamentalism

Cultural fundamentalism

etc

Why would you think the priority should be a reduction of Muslim fundamentalism



[ Parent ]

Prove it (1.50 / 2) (#211)
by richarj on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 05:04:18 AM EST

"the real problem is that muslim extremism is on the rise in the world."

Is that true or is it just our perception of it? Also where is the evidence that the terrorist attacks are doing significant damage and to whom and how?



"if you are uncool, don't worry, K5 is still the place for you!" -- rusty
[ Parent ]
prioritisation? (none / 1) (#237)
by gdanjo on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 10:25:05 PM EST

Tell that to the Newsmongers! Surely there are more important stories to tell than how your neighbourhood towel-head wants to kill you and eat your spleen? Surely there are greater direct dangers to me than some abstract, random possibility of instant death at the hands of Evildoers(tm)?

Priorities? I'm all for priorities, provided others prioritise as well ... because if I prioritise, but others unilaterate, *I* lose.

Dan ...
"Death - oh! fair and `guiling copesmate Death!
Be not a malais'd beggar; claim this bloody jester!"
-ToT
[ Parent ]

Didn't think you were an ignorant fuck, CTS. (3.00 / 2) (#244)
by Russell Dovey on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 07:04:34 AM EST

Here's the problem with your hypothesis, in easy, simple words:

If We Treat All The Muslims Like The Enemy, They Will Be Forced To Treat Us Like The Enemy, And We'll Have 50,000 Bin Ladens In Our FUCKING Cities.

Got it?

"Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan
[ Parent ]

the problem (none / 1) (#250)
by rhiannon on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 12:30:14 AM EST

I'm sorry but radical islamic terrorists have never actually affected my life in any direct way at all(rural oregonian here). However those zombies who should be staying home watching television affect my life on a daily basis. When we are done with the muslims we'll just move on to the next big thing, so the real real problem here is that we allow these easy hate targets to affect our lives here. But the real problem here is people that live in cities. ;)

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
-1, SEAT ONTO MY COCK! (1.05 / 18) (#13)
by Pooping in Urinals on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 03:09:08 AM EST


"...[T]he first midget amputee getting bukkaked by 20 japanese buddhist monks and I bet your gonna say 'well thats what the miscellaneous column is for.'" -- army of phred

Aren't you teh transhuman? (none / 0) (#14)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 03:23:06 AM EST



You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
No? (2.00 / 3) (#46)
by Pooping in Urinals on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:06:16 AM EST


"...[T]he first midget amputee getting bukkaked by 20 japanese buddhist monks and I bet your gonna say 'well thats what the miscellaneous column is for.'" -- army of phred
[ Parent ]

Yes? (none / 0) (#126)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:28:11 PM EST



You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Idiot? (3.00 / 2) (#213)
by Pooping in Urinals on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 07:35:43 AM EST


"...[T]he first midget amputee getting bukkaked by 20 japanese buddhist monks and I bet your gonna say 'well thats what the miscellaneous column is for.'" -- army of phred
[ Parent ]

I know you are, you said you are... (none / 1) (#232)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 08:28:29 PM EST

But what am I?

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
A jackass. (3.00 / 2) (#234)
by Pooping in Urinals on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:00:45 PM EST


"...[T]he first midget amputee getting bukkaked by 20 japanese buddhist monks and I bet your gonna say 'well thats what the miscellaneous column is for.'" -- army of phred
[ Parent ]

You jackass idiot? (none / 1) (#235)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:45:22 PM EST

It must be hard for you to identify with other people then...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Congratulations, you're on par with kindergartners (none / 0) (#239)
by Pooping in Urinals on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 10:46:58 PM EST

I'm still waiting for you to break out the tried and tested "I am rubber and you are glue!" argument.

"...[T]he first midget amputee getting bukkaked by 20 japanese buddhist monks and I bet your gonna say 'well thats what the miscellaneous column is for.'" -- army of phred
[ Parent ]

I'm not arguing matey (none / 1) (#240)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:19:18 PM EST

I don't doubt that you are a jackass and an idiot and, as you claim, on par with kindergarteners. We both agree, you fail it. I don't understand why you're saying it's my fault that you started such a juvenile thread. Don't get pissed off at me for going along with your inannity.

As for rubber and glue, well... If that's what gets you off, then more power to you brother. Glad that you are comfortable and open with your sexuality. Just keep your kinky fetishes away from me though thanks...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

here is a problem: (2.00 / 7) (#26)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 04:37:37 AM EST

i hit jack, jack hits me, i hit jack, jack hits me, etc...

you're idea is to only criticize my actions

what does it mean to you that jack continues to whack me on the head?

or, rather:

how can you hope to solve a problem by ignoring large sections of it's dynamic?

shut me up forever and slay my opposition to you forever by answering that seemingly obvious point you somehow so blithely ignore


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Yeah, but that's not it. (2.00 / 3) (#41)
by mr strange on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:33:41 AM EST

It's more like: I demolish Jack's house with his infant child inside it and rape his wife, Jack hits me, I shoot Jack wife in the face and hack his father to death, Jack hits me, etc...

Which part of this problem needs fixing more urgently?

intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus
[ Parent ]

are you serious? (1.50 / 2) (#42)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:36:47 AM EST

WHO is the actor in your allegory?

does this make sense: fred shoots phil, so phil's friend shoots me


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

It's more like (3.00 / 4) (#223)
by A Bore on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:26:19 AM EST

Fred shot Phil, so I beat the shit out of Jack. Now all Jack's friends hate me, so I'll beat the shit out of them too.

[ Parent ]
IAWTP. Almost worth sigging. [nt] (none / 1) (#233)
by mr strange on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 08:50:56 PM EST


omniEvents is a high availability messaging service for CORBA.

intrigued by your idea that fascism is feminine - livus
[ Parent ]
Fucking A! (none / 0) (#238)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 10:27:43 PM EST

That is the best description I've heard... Fantastic.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Insolent Child (1.25 / 4) (#138)
by Xptic on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:12:24 PM EST

The Mid-East is like an insolent child; no matter how hard you spank them, they continue to resist.

But make no mistake, they will be beaten into submission!

100 years ago, Japan was a militaristic society based around the emperor being a god-on-earth.  Today, Japan is a nice place where people can speak their minds, fall in love, wear trendy clothes, vote, worship, and, for the most part, have happy lives.

The US did that.  And we will do it with thoes fuckers in Iraq and Iran too.

If you hate religous fundamentalism, you should be on board.

If, however, you think it's OK for nutty fucking priests to rape little boys and cut the clits off little girls, then you probably think we "should just leave them in peace."

Thoes people need to be killed till the killin' is done.

We should set a number, say 3000 deaths.  If they exceed that number, we start bombing mosques.  If they go over 5000, we bomb Mecca.

The trick is to make it look like terrorists.  Don't have F-16s and guys in uniform.  Just have some random guy walk in with a suitcase bomb.

We cannot win so long as the people living there don't help us.  If they don't help us out of love, then we need to put the fear of Uncle Sam into them until they straighten up.

[ Parent ]

nutty priests raping boys? I though... (3.00 / 2) (#218)
by israfil on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:48:50 AM EST

... that happened in Canada and the USA all through the late 20th century.  In Canada, the trials nearly bankrupted the Anglican and United Churches.  Don't have to go to Iraq and Iran for that.  Maybe "we" should bomb Canturbury, Toronto, and the Vatican, since tha's where the three indicted churches are based... er... their center of extreme religious intolerance and abuse.

Seriously.  Glass houses and stuff.

As to Iraq et. al.  The issue isn't whether abuse is happening in the name of religion.  Toppling a government won't fix that.  What it may fix, is preventing such abusive nasty folks from actually controlling society explicitly, so you can start educating people and changing the social fabric - as per. Japan.  The only thing is, everybody better get ready to pay the cost.  

Sure Japan had martyers (kamakazis), and a xenophobic attitude and a religious devotion to the emperor.  But they also had a very strong streak of personal obediance and deference towards people of higher rank - part of the culture.  What Muslims have is the same zeal, with a deference to God and the Prophets... but no similar deference to structural authority.  So if you conquer them, you won't necessarily get obedient people that you can educate.  They, much like early americans, are particularly concerned with their freedom of action.  

Japan could cope with being a conquered people, and rose through it to become stronger.  I suspect that Muslims won't be able to handle being conquered, and will resist in ways that the Japanese never would.  Therin lies the cost.  It may yet be worth paying, but we all should be explicit about it.  's why I like CTS - he sees the cost, and is quite clear that it needs paying.
.
i. - this sig provided by /dev/arandom and an infinite number of monkeys with keyboards.
[ Parent ]

it reminds me (none / 0) (#245)
by Viliam Bur on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 08:34:56 AM EST

of a picture I saw once in Wikipedia...

[ Parent ]
Regarding the ban on headscarves (2.50 / 2) (#28)
by bml on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 05:23:16 AM EST

All religious symbols are already banned in French schools (including headscarves, crucifixes and the like). The don't seem to have had much practical problems doing so.

The Internet is vast, and contains many people. This is the way of things. -- Russell Dovey
In my religion *any* clothing is a symbol [nt] (3.00 / 2) (#69)
by artis on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:27:18 AM EST


--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I doubt they would have (none / 1) (#119)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:43:41 PM EST

It's just a matter of the individual taking the offending item(s) off. I think that Howard used that as an excuse though to hide the fact that it's actually a biggoted, racist idea... because there's no way that he would want to 'persecute' Jews and Christians with the same ban...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
that's outright persecution (3.00 / 3) (#122)
by QuantumG on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:17:08 PM EST

and it causes intolerance in children when you should be encouraging acceptance. Basically what you're saying by banning religious symbols in public schools is forcing religious kids to go to private schools. Typically private schools are aligned with a single faith. So now in both public and private schools you have kids that don't get to see any religious symbology other than their own. Way to breed bigots.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
[ Parent ]
Not necessarily (none / 1) (#227)
by cpghost on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:15:22 PM EST

that's outright persecution and it causes intolerance in children when you should be encouraging acceptance.

A moroccan friend of mine put it that way: the head scarves that France is banning are *not* religious symbols, but a logo of a certain *political* direction called islamism (which he differentiates a lot from islam). In his opinion, that ban was not only okay, but outright necessary and unavoidable.

So the question is wether POLITICAL symbols are to be allowed in schools or not. But France didn't get it differentiated enough to separate that islamist veil from normal religious symbols; so they simply lumped them all together.


cpghost at Cordula's Web
[ Parent ]
that's just as bad (none / 1) (#229)
by QuantumG on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 06:39:22 PM EST

Children who are not exposed to different systems of politics quickly turn into fanatics when they do discover them, usually in college where they actually have some power to act on extreme political positions. It would be more sensible to teach children about politics when they are young and detached from power.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
[ Parent ]
Politics in schools (none / 1) (#252)
by cpghost on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 06:53:32 PM EST

Yes, that seems reasonable, as long as you keep peer (group) pressure out of the way. Because that's not always avoidable, some schools used to require school uniforms. We don't want to go to this extreme, but protecting children from those pressures may justify the ban of political symbols within schools.

Anyway, we're not in France to fully appreciate the situation. All we've got is second hand knowledge...


cpghost at Cordula's Web
[ Parent ]
+1 CTS hates it. (1.40 / 5) (#33)
by tweetsybefore on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 07:00:09 AM EST



I'm racist and I hate niggers.
notice how i voted it +1fp (none / 1) (#34)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 07:06:39 AM EST

because i honestly believe discussing the obvious with these fucking morons will edumacate them

you can't solve a problem that is emananting from the arab world by changing the behavior of the west

fucking obvious, right?

not to some propagandized western children apparently


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

OTOH (none / 1) (#36)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 07:37:13 AM EST

If you live near a hornets nest, it's probably best to stop poking it with a stick whilst you come up with a plan to remove the damn thing.

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[ Parent ]
fundamentalist terrorists (none / 1) (#37)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 07:55:41 AM EST

are not lightning strikes, shark attacks, or hornets nests

they are people

and based on their beliefs, they deserve less respect, not more

even if you don't understand that lesson, then there is still a point to make: 9/11, london, bali, madrid, etc. should mean something to your allegory: the "hornets" are already excited and attacking


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Oh absolutely (none / 0) (#43)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:39:21 AM EST

Well aware of that, IMHO nobody deserves any respect that believes in their religion absolutely, with no room for doubt. Anyone that values their religion above human life should probably be exterminated, or at the very least 'reconditioned' somehow.

And yes, the hornets are already attacking, because we have stirred them up. We have poked them over and over again when we should have gone and got a bug bomb.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm advocating by analogy there, but what I mean to say is it would have been wise to at least try and come up with a proper solution to what's going on than to just react (badly) and do things piecemeal. I agree we no longer have that option, but it would have been nice had someone tried to come up with it a while ago.

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[ Parent ]
i don't understand you (none / 1) (#44)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:49:36 AM EST

what about bigotry and intolerance endemic to the arab world is the west's fault?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Non of it (none / 0) (#47)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:08:36 AM EST

Unless you go back a long way.

All I'm saying is it would have been good if we could have had a strategy to try and tackle this before it all got so involved and violent. You know, by perhaps leaning on Israel to start compromising and behaving reasonably a little earlier than it did, by putting on pressure for human rights and shit like that rather than guzzling oil and pumping money into corrupt regimes..... simple things.

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[ Parent ]
tell me one example (none / 1) (#48)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:14:36 AM EST

tell me one policy change of any western nation that could have been done in the last 100 years that would have changed something like 9/11, madrid, london, bali, etc.

osama bin laden is the product of arab bigotry

is a christian fundamentalist bigot the product of any policy of the government in the arab world?

obviously fucking not

so why can't you see the reverse?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You're serious? (none / 1) (#49)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:20:18 AM EST

Well how about stopping the formation of Israel for a start?

Now I'm not advocating this in the slightest but I think it makes a good illustration of how ridiculous your challenge is. The whole middle east would be a lot different if there had never been an israel. No palestinian refugees, no 6-day war etc etc.

I'm not saying other events may not have happened, or that the formation of Isael after the second world war is somehow wrong, or even trying to take any blame away from the bigoted repressive maniacal assholes that run most of the middle east, I'm just saying it's ridiculous to think the west has had no effect.

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[ Parent ]
are you saying (none / 1) (#52)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:28:12 AM EST

  1. osama bin laden is fighting to demolish israel
  2. israel is completely the creation of the west
are YOU serious?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
No, I thought I made it clear that I am not (none / 1) (#55)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:39:34 AM EST

I am saying that it is ridiculous to think that decisions of the west on political, trade, aid and military actions have not all had an impact the world over, just like decisions made by governments in other parts of the world have had impact on the west.

I am also saying that some of these things will have had impact on ordinary people, and some will have had impact on fundamentalist fuckheads.

I think there are things the west could have done better (like not interfering so damn much) and that these can contribute to the direction of animosity against the west.

Broadly I agree with you - fundamentalism in all its forms is an abomination and we should be doing our best to crush the intolerance and hated it breeds - but I don't think interaction between "The West" and the rest of the world can be ruled out as a factor in the current middle eastern climate.

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[ Parent ]
whatever dude (none / 1) (#57)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:47:55 AM EST

this is where i am coming from:

intolerance, fundamentalism, bigotry

these things are never an EFFECT

they are always a CAUSE

these things are the root evil we are always at war with, and always have been at war with

and i ask you to give no excuse to fundamentalist fuckheads

that's FUNDAMENTALIST fuckheads i said

as in christian ones, muslim ones, and jewish ones

so when you talk about islam and fundamentalist terrorists, there is absolutely NOTHING you can point to the west about

the root evil is with the fundamentalists, NOT the policies of any western government

what is the root cause of pat robertson issuing a fatwa to assassinate hugo chavez?

what did the venezuelan government do to deserve that?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

pat robertson is a bigotted fundamentalist fuck

do you understand that?

what is the root cause of osama bin laden doing 9/11?

what did the us government do to deserve that?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

osama bin laden is a bigotted fundamentalist fuck

SAME FUCKING THING

in order to fight evil in this world, we need to truly fight it, give it no excuse that is really nothing more than ethnocentrism: "osama bin laden is bad, but he's an arab, and i'm not ready to pass judgment on him as the root of evil because he's not from my culture"

BULLSHIT

fundamentalist evil is fundamentalist evil is fundamentalist evil

it is the ROOT of our problems and must be fought WITHOUT OUR HANDS TIED BEHIND OUR BACKS due to tentativeness and temerity


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Lol. I think you're a fundamentalist (3.00 / 2) (#58)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:49:41 AM EST

An American fundamentalist perhaps, rather than a religious one.

Or maybe just a mentalist.....

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[ Parent ]
i am asking you to fight intolerance (none / 1) (#60)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:55:49 AM EST

what about that message is intolerant?

tolerance says nothing about tolerating intolerance

just because the intolerance does not flow form your own culture doesn't mean it gets a pass

it is, in fact, an extremely liberal idea to hold people to global, universal standards of human behavior, rights, and responsibilities, rather than chop them up into religious or geopolotical bocks and say something like "here everyone is rich and debauched, there everyone is poor and intolerant"

bullshit, what i am is a liberal, in a truer sense of what it means to be liberal than all the so called liberals out there who are actually more ethnocentric and self-involved than any outright conservative racist ever could be

there is nothing fundamentalist about me at all, unless you want to talk about me being from a radical middle, an extemist moderate, a humanist demagogue...

whatever those mean, so i'll gladly except such a label, because the label means shit, like "deafening silence" or "working vacation"


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

There's that word again. (none / 0) (#64)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:06:41 AM EST

Ethnocentric. Fuck you.

Also, as for your claims about being liberal - have you seen yourself rant when people critcise the human rights record of the US? You verge on neocon at times.

No, we don't need to tolerate intolerance, but we have to distinguish between speech and action, between thoughts and deeds.

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[ Parent ]
dose of liberalism for you (none / 1) (#66)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:14:44 AM EST

spending an hour deploring the fact that a bunch of mostly terrorist assholes in guantanamo have to look at female guards who don't wear burqas while paying a minute of lipservice to outright genocide committed by janjaweed in sudan is provincial

i am talking about global standards of behavior, applied EQUALLY

EVERYWHERE

that's a liberal concept

you're not a liberal

you're a self-involved shallow western child


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

WOW!! What the HOLY FUCK are you on about? (none / 0) (#68)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:26:38 AM EST

I think anyone who has a problem with anyone else wearing what the fuck they like is an asshole, regardless of race. I think the genocide is sudan is apalling and the lack of action from western governments repulsive.

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING THIS STUFF?

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[ Parent ]
*snicker* (none / 1) (#72)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:41:21 AM EST

we're having a discussion, under a story that talks about intolerance in australia breeding hatred

of muslims

WHAT

THE

FUCK?!

MAYBE THE FUCKING FUNDAMENTALISTS BOMBING INNOCENTS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT

gee i dunno, could it be?!

i guess 'm kind of a freak to think that way, you know?

FOCUSING ON THE WEST ABOUT PROBLEMS THAT START IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS COMPLETELY UNPRODUCTIVE BULLSHIT

this is my silly, silly position: CRITICIZE THE FUCKING MIDDLE EAST FOR SPAWNING FUNDAMENTALIST WACKJOBS

sorry if i'm such a wacko way out on the limb there!

I'M TALKING ABOUT THE FUCKING MORONS WHO CAN ONLY FOCUS ON THE WEST NO MATTER WHAT THE FUCK PROBLEM THERE IS IN THE WORLD

focus on the WORLD, not the WEST

or you're FUCKING PROVINCIAL

do you understand what a wacky guy i am now?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Fair enough (none / 0) (#76)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:50:48 AM EST

Because it looked for all the world like you were accusing me of those things.

I don't for a minute think that people saying that stuff are liberal, but then neither's my dad, he's a right wing loon and I wouldn't suggest silencing or deporting him either.

I'm sorry if you think I don't criticise the middle east enough - I do actually think the middle east is far worse than western society on an awful lot of things. I think the prominence of religious fundamentalism is horrible wherever it occurs, I think the abuse of women is despicable. I think the political systems are backward and corrupt. I think a lot. I don't see what that has to do with tolerating dissent in our own society. As I said before, punish crimes, not speech.

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[ Parent ]
the fallacy of the slippery slope (none / 1) (#78)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:57:04 AM EST

"if they legalize marijuana, what next, pedophilia?"

uh... no

"if they jail a fundamentalist wackjob militant who daily spews that they should kill bush and bomb americans, what next, jail me for saying abuse of women is bad?"

uh... no


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

But you must admit that you need to draw a line (none / 1) (#79)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 12:01:31 PM EST

somewhere?

Seriously, do we make a law that applies only to muslim clerics? That would be ethnocentric in your own words. Do we make one that applies only to religion? The what is religion? Is PETA a religion?

Where is the line CTS? What would you do?

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[ Parent ]
it's not hard! (none / 1) (#81)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 12:04:14 PM EST

if i kill people repeatedly and talk about killing more people, i think i should be stopped!

even if i do it because i believe in the easter bunny!

there is no fucking slippery slope!

it's not fucking hard!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I don't disagree with that (none / 1) (#86)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 12:47:13 PM EST

I disagree with treating people as a group. You seem to think "Fundamentalists have killed before therefore we ought to jail/deport/whatever all fundamentalists".

I don't agree with that. Clear now?

If individuals perform criminal acts then fuck 'em. Don't deport them for saying they think sharia is the way to go and we should overthrow democracy unless they either start going into specifics of militant action plans (i.e. conspiring to cause harm) or start actually harming. D'you see the difference there?

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[ Parent ]
you're too passive, you have to be more proactive (none / 1) (#87)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 12:53:25 PM EST

if someone SPECIFICALLY speaks of killing someone, that's it, jail them

"Don't deport them for saying they think sharia is the way to go and we should overthrow democracy unless they either start going into specifics of militant action plans"

where the fuck did i say that!

listen to my actual words rather than your fears


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Same place I said robertson was great? (none / 0) (#88)
by Have A Nice Day on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 12:57:06 PM EST

Lol. I think we largely agree CTS, but I at least have not managed to dissect the meaning from your spewed rhetoric very well.

Yes, I am passive I guess, and I wish more were like me, but until then I'll settle for a fair society where people get tried for crimes, not thought.

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[ Parent ]
you have to defend your world (none / 1) (#89)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:00:32 PM EST

"I'll settle for a fair society where people get tried for crimes, not thought"

good for you

there's some assholes out there who are working to destroy the world you desire

when do you decide to get tough on them?

or is the world you seek not worht fighting for?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You are as bad as tweetsygalore. n/t (1.50 / 2) (#146)
by tweetsybefore on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 02:01:01 AM EST



I'm racist and I hate niggers.
[ Parent ]
who are you? (none / 1) (#166)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:25:22 AM EST

and who cares

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Don't kill CTS. Should I be jailed? [nt] (none / 0) (#230)
by artis on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 06:54:46 PM EST


--
Can you know that you are omniscient?
[ Parent ]
no answer (none / 1) (#102)
by kero on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 04:06:21 PM EST

So if I just talk about killing people but don't actually, you know, kill people I'm alright?

Earlier you didn't make that distinction, but then again, you aren't very good at seeing the middle are you? One end or the other that's where you hang out.

[ Parent ]
what's the value (none / 1) (#165)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:24:45 AM EST

in talking about killing people?

how is that free speech?

isn't it a threat?

and what if the group that talks about killing people repeatedly (fundamentalists) actually kill people, repeatedly

why do you still see it as a free speech issue instead of what it obviously is? a genuine threat on your life?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

On the side of freedom (none / 0) (#221)
by kero on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:07:43 AM EST

I would rather live in a society where you can say "I'm going to kill you" and for the most part not get thrown in jail for it. Instead of in a society where if you say something, regardless of intent, past history, or any other indications of actual intent, you are locked up.

And again, not every member of the group that repeatedly talks about killing people actually kills people. Membership in a group on it's face shouldn't be enough to be arrested or whatever your final solution turns out to be. Actually doing something illegal should be what you are arrested for.

I understand your fear and hope the US is strong enough not to give into that fear and create a police state for our own protection.

[ Parent ]
-1 cut and paste jobby <nt> (none / 1) (#101)
by kero on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 04:02:22 PM EST



[ Parent ]
yes (none / 1) (#164)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:22:41 AM EST

when confronted with the same crap again and again, it's a convenient shortcut, since their blindness has not allowed them to see what i have said to them about 10,000x already

this whole thread is intellectual charity as it is, i'm holding the hands of dimwits

so you'll forgive me for taking shortcuts ;-P


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Stop making excuses CTS (none / 0) (#231)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 08:13:52 PM EST

You know you've got nothing so you just repeat that over for all the world to hear.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Easy... Nixon/Reagan bad (none / 1) (#125)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:26:40 PM EST

Look CTS, I know that these two presidents are your heroes and that one day you hope to be as "great" as Nixon. But you gotta except it, these guys are fucked up.

I can think of many policy changes that could have curtailed the justifications for the Arab Freedom Fighters' causes:

Giving the Arabs rockets and guns to fight the Russians back in the 70/80s.

Allowing the CIA to train those freedom fighters in the tactics they are now using on us.

Less compliance with Israel, more compliance with human rights and negotiation between Palestine and Israel.

A clean energy policy, directing more funds into researching viable renewable energy sources and implementing them in place of oil.

Getting rid of black segregation 30 years before it was actually removed would have helped too. That way the rise of Islam amongst the brothers would have been less because Malcolm X would have been irrelevant.

There are soooo many more CTS but you're too stupid to actually interpret factual evidence. That's why I find you so entertaining, you can never actually support your beliefs with factual evidence. Well CTS, White power man white power.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

listen to me carefully (none / 1) (#163)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:20:43 AM EST

you're blind and prejudiced

it's like i'm sitting here, talking to you, and you're sitting 90 degrees to me, talking to your phantom nemesis

i'm not the person you think i am

examine my words, what i actually say

and tell me again i think nixon or reagan or great

listen carefully: fuck those fucking assholes

understand?

now: i'll talk to you, and engage you on your points, when you fess up and admit i am not the hollywood movie bogeyman in your head

stop talking to him

talk to me

look at my words

not your weird hysdterical fears

understand?

you don't win arguments by making your opponent out to be a monster they really aren't

understand you prejudicial fuck?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Sidestepping the argument CTS (none / 1) (#183)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:00:06 AM EST

tell me one policy change of any western nation that could have been done in the last 100 years that would have changed something like 9/11, madrid, london, bali, etc?

I answer your question with some policy changes that could have changed the way things are, and you repeat the same bullshit you've been saying all day... Thanks for validating my argument.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

you didn't answer my quesiton (none / 1) (#200)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:18:52 AM EST

you characterized my argument as something it is not

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
LOL WHAT again? (none / 1) (#209)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:34:12 AM EST

Dude, I just have to say that I am laughing so hard back here right now.

I'm not arguing any more purely because you are so entertaining. Really, I mean this with no sarcasm or animosity. I am genuinely amused now... Thanks for the laughs... You're not so bad after all... In fact, I bet you're a really nice person out there in the real world... Cheeky bastard!

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

stupid hornets (none / 0) (#53)
by speek on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:29:19 AM EST

When you go and paint the hornets nest, they don't thank you for doing such a nice job - they attack you, just as though you were poking them with a stick.

That's cause they're hornets - hornets are kinda dumb.

Ditto religious wackos.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

i agree (none / 1) (#61)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:59:31 AM EST

but those hornets could have been doctors or lawyers instead

they're human beings

a lot of them are beyond redemption, and must be destroyed, but there is a whole new crop that could be made that must not be made

and you don't do that by backing away from the hornets nest

unless you want hornets forever

there actually will be hornets forever, but let us make sure they are always in small numbers, and always on the run

without any place to call home and no region to depend upon for breeding

and you do that by FIGHTING them

NOT by letting them alone!

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

fighting won't do it (none / 1) (#92)
by speek on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:22:46 PM EST

The hornets would much prefer to feed on dead meat - not you. Similarly, middle eastern fundamentalists would rather attack their neighbors than the US. But, we go and poke, and make ourselves the target. And we do that because we are nervous about our oil supply. Were this happening in Africa, we would not put ourselves in harms way.

The US fighting the fundamentalists causes moderates to become fundamentalist.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

you're fucking stupid (none / 1) (#93)
by circletimessquare on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:37:06 PM EST

did 9/11 cause christian fundamentalists?

yes or no

answer the question honestly

and then tell me abu ghraib or guantanamo causes islamic fundamentalism again

fundamentalism is ALWAYS a CAUSE, never an EFFECT

you don't need anything in this world to become an intolerant bigot except a heady brew of arrogance and ethnocentrism

bigotry is everywhere in the world, in the usa, in china, in india, in the arab world, EVERYWHERE

it is NEVER the effect of ANYTHING

it is ALWAYS the CAUSE of the problems we are facing in the world like this

so you fight it, because you have to!

it's simply the wages of maintaining civilization


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Cause & effect (none / 1) (#104)
by Sgt York on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 05:05:13 PM EST

fundamentalism is ALWAYS a CAUSE, never an EFFECT

Only the bad guys think in absolutes, remember?

In general, you're right. Fundamentalism is a cause, but an insufficient cause. Certain things can cause an individual to move into fundamentalism.

Take a Christian, but not exactly what you'd call a fundamentalist. A person that is faithful and devout, follows the Bible, etc, but completely. So he's open to new thoughts and doesn't go with the nutjob, extremist crap. Then say the US tosses the Bill of Rights, but in just this specific case. They begin to seriously curtail Christian practices, put restrictions on practioners, encourages discrimination against them, or even outright persecute them and outlaw the religion. For some insane reason, the rest of the country goes along with this, like Germany, 1939 but without the gestapo roundups. Poking the hornets' nest but neglecting the bug bomb, so to speak (heh. I guess that'll piss somebody off).

Christians would get pissed, and rightfully so. A small number of fundies would gain voice, and would draw in the more mainstream of the faithful. They advocate all manner of crackpot actions: protests, violence, etc. You're an imaginative guy, I'm sure you can see how the scenario could unfold.

In this case, fundamentalism is an insufficient cause. It is a contributing factor, like a seed for a crystal; other conditions have to be right to make the threat grow to something that has impact.

An event may not cause fundamentalism, but it sure can be fuel for the fire. And a good way to put out a fire is to deny it fuel.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

now we're back to hornets (none / 1) (#162)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:18:07 AM EST

you're saying hornets aren't culpable becase they have to be stirred up to act first, so they are not fully culpable

my words are this: a hornet is a hornet, condemn it

because i don't respect hornets

i will not tiptoe through life and respect fundamentalist chrisitans or respect fundamentalist muslims

because while they may lie as seeds, dormant, they will grow someday, no amtter what, into the evil they represent

so get rid of them now, BEFORE they grow, because their growth is INEVITABLE

like this: the scopes monkey trial was decades ago

evolution defeated creationism decades ago

and yet, here we are, in 2005, and dimwits in kansas want to put creationism in textbooks

the lesson?

FUNDAMENTALISM DOES NOT FADE AWAY IF LEFT ALONE

IT BREEDS, IN DARKNESS, FOREVER, AND GROWS

an undisturbed hornets nest will not disappear

you only wind up with 3 more hornet colonies the next summer

understand?

you have to fight fundamentalism!

it does NOT fade away!

it requires active removal!

it is the wages of civilizaiton, like taking otu the trash, or they will take over your wordl

do you doubt it?

look at creationism: still alive and kicking, and GROWING, after all these decades

do you still doubt you have to actively fight it?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

clap clap clap (none / 1) (#184)
by Sgt York on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:02:36 AM EST

I would tell you you missed the point, but that would be pointless. Props to cts, the master of the small red fish.

Not a very coveted title, mind you. That was a redirect I really didn't expect. Glorious.

But what about transhornetism? The cyberdeuterocerebrum?

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

i answered your point directly (none / 1) (#202)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:21:26 AM EST

you're saying as long as hornets aren't made angry, everything is ok

i'm saying that's impossible: they breed, and you wind up pissing them off someday anyway

so culpability has been demonstrated to be the existence of hornets, not those who stir them up as you posit


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

OK (none / 0) (#219)
by Sgt York on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 10:26:37 AM EST

So you did miss it.

I agree that the fundamentalism should be fought, but it should be fought in such a way as to be careful not to breed further fundamentalism. All I'm saying is that in the fight against it, it is quite easy to go too far, and become counterproductive. To risk another half assed analogy, if you find yourself fighting a magic broom, don't cut it in half.

For nearly any philosophy, be it political, religious, or otherwise, there are sane members and there are fanatics. But these positions are not always fixed. An otherwise sane, rational person can be pushed to fanaticism if he sees his beliefs as persecuted. Fanatics have a knack for making their beliefs seem mainstream; they are often talented speakers and their passion can make them quite charismatic, especially to someone who feels persecuted.

I can see how my comment could be construed as saying "Ignore it and it will go away", but that is not what I meant. You and I agree, ignore it, and it will grow. But, the caveat to that statement is fight in the wrong way, make martyrs, and it will also grow. Fight it correctly, and it can be slowed, perhaps even controlled.

I'm not as optimistic as you; I don't think it can ever be erradicated, only controlled. The goal is laudable, but IMO unrealistic. It must be controled, and the best mechanisms of control differs from philosophy to philosophy. One mechanism, however, is constant, IMO. The best way to fight it is to enlist the aid of the sane portion of the believers. Don't alienate them, because there is a significant portion of them that can be easily swayed by the fanatics. However, if they are active, educated, and aware, they can pull some of the fanatics into the sane camp. Yes, it can be done. I've done it, and I continue to try.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

ok (none / 0) (#109)
by speek on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 06:37:42 PM EST

did 9/11 cause christian fundamentalists?

Yes. Next?

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

really? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (none / 1) (#160)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:11:51 AM EST

in your world then the war between islam and christianity is only beginning, and will consume billions and die out decades from now

i don't believe that, but you do: that's your the effect of the words you just said

i believe it is moderate christians allied with moderatre muslims fighting fundamentalists, whether christian or moslem

my world has hope, i believe in my world of moderates defeating fundamentalists

but if you really believe what you said, then there is no hope, and god/ allah help us all, because we're all dead

so kiss your ass behind if you realyl believe what oyu just said

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Sidestepping the argument AGAIN CTS (none / 0) (#185)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:02:38 AM EST

You asked if he believed that 9-11 caused Christian Fundamentalism, and he said yes... That's got nothing to do with the holy war that you have been so fondly advocating throughout this discussion...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
are you ok? (none / 1) (#193)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:08:56 AM EST

no really, are oyu mentally sound?

quote from your comment:

"That's got nothing to do with the holy war that you have been so fondly advocating throughout this discussion"

in direct response to my comment:

"i believe it is moderate christians allied with moderatre muslims fighting fundamentalists, whether christian or moslem

my world has hope, i believe in my world of moderates defeating fundamentalists"

are you ok?

are oyu mentally sound?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Yeah, I'm fine (none / 0) (#206)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:29:05 AM EST

I think you should ask yourself... Because you're attacking the wrong person...

It was I, D Jade that said those words, not Speek who is the person you just shitcanned...

If you're going to make a bullshit argument, at least post it in the right thread.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Yeah, I'm fine (none / 1) (#207)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:29:12 AM EST

I think you should ask yourself... Because you're attacking the wrong person...

It was I, D Jade that said those words, not Speek who is the person you just shitcanned...

If you're going to make a bullshit argument, at least post it in the right thread.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

you fail to understand absolutely everything (none / 1) (#225)
by speek on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 01:15:54 PM EST

Even your own question. You asked:

did 9/11 cause christian fundamentalists?

I said yes. Now, how does that mean that in your world then the war between islam and christianity is only beginning? Are you confusing the word fundamentalists with fundamentalism? I've mentioned this confusion on your part in previous posts you know - why don't you go back and read that till it starts to sink into your thick skull.

I have no doubt 9/11 caused a certain subset of people in this country to become more sympathetic to the fundamentalist rhetoric. I have no doubt a certain subset of people in this country became more fundamentalist in their religious convictions as a result of 9/11. I have no doubt a certain subset of people have renewed their flagging relgious beliefs as a result of 9/11. I have no doubt a certain subset of people have become newly religious as a result of 9/11. I don't think this can be reasonably questioned. In fact, I'm sure hurricane Katrina has had similar effects.

So yes, 9/11 did cause Christian fundamentalists to come into being that weren't there previously.

--
al queda is kicking themsleves for not knowing about the levees
[ Parent ]

If he's stupid then you are a vegetable (none / 1) (#121)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:10:19 PM EST

did 9/11 cause christian fundamentalists?
No. Christian fundamentalism already existed. However, the attack on 9/11 gave rise to their voice in the public arena. The media portrayed the situation as black and white and more dumb people like CTS chose to jump on the bandwagon.

Abu Graib and Guantanamo didn't cause fundamentalism either. But they gave more people reasons to move away from the center towards the fundamental right.

The fact is that if you, as a US American, want to fight fundamentalism (and you say all forms are wrong) then you should be doing your utmost to ensure that George W Bush is impeached with his whole administration. Given that he is a Christian Fundamentalist who leads his staff in prayer each morning. Given that even born again Christians think he's a wack job... and that's saying something.

You wanna fight fundamentalists, start in your own backyard you fucking sheister.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

i am not an american (none / 1) (#159)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:08:29 AM EST

i am a citizen of the world

i fight bigotry and intolerance wherever it may be

and since bigorty and intolerance are effectively globalized, i have the only morally and intellectually defensible position on the issue

by your own words, you are hopelessly provincial and ethnocentric

you think you can focus on a problem by focusing on one small corner of it

so you're loud but ultimately useless to the problems you concern yourself with

you fight it at it's source

and right now in the world the biggest source of bigotry and intolerance is fundamentalism

we fight it, whereever it may be


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Don't fucking claim you belong in my world (none / 1) (#167)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:27:46 AM EST

Fuck you! You are a US Citizen you dumb bastard. Don't spout this citizen of the world crap. Citizens of the world wouldn't dain to blow up some goat herder's family in order to fight terrorism.

A citizen of the world would say, "Oh, F-14 jets with smart bombs and tanks with depleted uranium shells are pretty fucking terrifying. Maybe we should try a different approach..."

i fight bigotry and intolerance wherever it may be

Don't try and claim that your regular acts of self-mutilation constitutes fighting bigotry. You just cut yourself because you hate yourself even more than everyone here does.

you think you can focus on a problem by focusing on one small corner of it

No, I don't think that at all. This is your belief bro. Your small corner is a pointless war in a far-off land. The bigger picture is much more than that and as usual, you fail to see it. Your mind has a very small window that rarely opens.

You're right, if you want to win, fight the source. And the biggest example of bigotry and fundamentalism I've seen in this debate is you.

You do nothing for the cause. Join the marines and go and shoot turbans if you want to do something. But you wouldn't because all you do is sit on your ass and spout bullshit.

I volunteer in my community and I learn about my neighbours. I try and understand their point of view as best as my culture allows. I even try to understand sepratists assholes like you. I understand that the source of all this terrorism bullshit is in our very own heads. It's not a bunch of extremists shouting Jihad. It's that little voice in everyone's heads that's telling us to be afraid.

Well, sorry, I'm more afraid of the 400,000 members of the US Armed forces than I am of a few thousand members of segregated and fragmented organisations with no solid infrastructure for communication, strategy or otherwise.

See, the terrorists are more likely to bomb us because they want us to do what they say. The US will more likely bomb us because we don't do what they say... Get a grip on reality CTS because you seriously need help and you're getting worse as time goes on.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

like i said in another thread (none / 1) (#170)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:40:24 AM EST

this is a a fascinating fantasy of yours

i'm talking to you, and your turned 90 degrees, talking to your fears and bogeymen

i tell you i'm a globalist, and you call me a "separatist asshole"

lol what?

HELLO????????? ANYONE HOME?????????

I try and understand their point of view as best as my culture allows.

yes, and apparently your abilities are quite feeble

you don't win arguments by characterizing the perosn you are talking to in ways that havent't he faintest to do with what they are actually saying

it's a bankrupt maneuver of yours, an act of desperation

so when you are ready to talk ME a real GLOBALIST- when you in your OWN WORDS have admitted to provincialism, then we can talk

util then, consider yourself to be hysterical twit

it's a big world out there, time to wake up dear little feeble provinical fool

;-)

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Yeah, because you have no fucking idea... (none / 1) (#177)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:52:01 AM EST

I tell you you're a sepratist, racist bastard because you are CTS. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so. You're not a fucking globalist... you're a dumb american...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
i'm a globalist and a liberal (1.00 / 3) (#180)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:55:10 AM EST

i am not an american

you are a self stated provincial

are you ready to confront me on what i actually say?

rather than characterize me in ways i can disprove by directly pointing to words i wrote in direct contradiciton to how you characterize me? ;-)

stop talking to the bogeymen in your head darling

start talking to me ;-)

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You sure sound like (none / 1) (#187)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:03:35 AM EST

Those dumb fucks in the White House... What passport do you use when you leave the USA?

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
actually i'm getting dual citizenship (1.00 / 3) (#189)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:06:38 AM EST

do you have anything to add to the substance of my remarks?

or do you continue to think that characerizing me as someone i am not is supposed to mean something?

*yawn*


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Thanks for proving my point. (2.00 / 2) (#205)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:26:46 AM EST

Currently, you are only a US Citizen. When you get your dual citizenship, you will be a US citizen and a citizen of the second country... This doesn't make you a global citizen mate... Sorry, you'll need more than two citizenships to achieve that my friend.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Well you're blaming them for your's (none / 1) (#120)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:03:23 PM EST

So it's not unfair for them to blame you as well.

But then I forgot that CTS believes that we should all fight bigotry and intolerance with more bigotry and intolerance. Oh wait, no he doesn't, he's just using that as an excuse for his own.

CTS, I bet you love the current political climate because now you don't look like such of a bastard... mainly because there are even more bastards out there than ever before, so someone as unremarkable as yourself no longer stands out.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

why is it so hard for you racist? (none / 0) (#158)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:05:43 AM EST

bigotry in the arab world that results in actual bombings of people in the west

why is it so hard for you to condemn that?

why do words like accountability, responsibility only apply to the west?

are arabs children? are they incapable of accountability, responsbility?

i don't think so, but you do racist

according to you, only the big bad white man can be accountable, right? ;-)

how very rudyard kipling of you

you should read "white man's burden"

it summarizes your problem quite succinctly, you shallow, ethnocentric patronizing racist

"those poor suffering arabs, of course they bomb us! only we can take responsibility for that!"

keep talking racist, you're true colors are showing ;-)

listen to me carefully: an arab to me is my equal, my fellow man

to you he cannot be accountable, responsible, to you he is a child who needs your leadership

you're racist ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Um... Did you forget your pills? (none / 1) (#171)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:40:27 AM EST

I have never once said that guilty people should not be accountable for their own actions. I am merely responding to your belief that all Muslims are fundamentally opposed to the western way of life. Firstly, it's untrue.

I believe that the people who carried out the bombings in the west should be brought to justice. I also think the people who have destroyed homes and families in the east (that is, the US led forces).

See your stated point of view is that Muslim extremists should be brought to justice, but not the western extremists. This is the polar opposite of the viewpoint you accuse me of having (which is not mine anyway).

If you disagree with the point of my article, then you are a bigot because you are advocating that all Muslims be persecuted for the acts of the minority that are terrorists.

And don't you ever call me racist... That's downright slanderous...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

oh man i love this ;-) (none / 1) (#173)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:45:05 AM EST

"I am merely responding to your belief that all Muslims are fundamentally opposed to the western way of life. Firstly, it's untrue."

it IS completely untrue

and nothing like i ever said in my entire life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

go ahead, find where i said that, anywhere

you can look, forever, YOU WILL NEVER FIND THOSE WORDS

because i never said that, and never owuld, AS IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I BELIEVE OR ANYTHING I EVER SAID

;-)

is it beginning to dawn on you? your blindness? your characteriziaiton of me as a bogeyman from the back of your own mind?

how what i say actually has nothing to do with what you think of me?

am i beginning to shake you from your hysterical prejudicial ways?

;-)

you're getting there, you'll wake up, i am actually happy to have helped you out of your little provincial shell

;-)

wake up fool, embrace a global outlook on the problems that confront you

you'll get there someday man, you're not essentially evil, you're just a dumb child, you can grow up ;-)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Man, you are one egotistical fucker... (none / 1) (#176)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:50:19 AM EST

Hahaha! You actually think that I am bothered by you?

Firstly, your too incogent to understand half of what you say, and secondly you are so lame that I wait in anticipation to see what stupidity you come up with next.

I gotta hand it to you CTS, the way you have managed to distort your own reality is really quite remarkable. I'm amazed you still function in this world.

Actually, now that I think about it, you can't. That's why you've got 9000+ comments on this site...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

yes (1.00 / 3) (#182)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:56:50 AM EST

i'm very bored at work

do you have anything to say about my global approach to the problem you care about versus your self-stated provincial approach?

or by your silence on the issue am i to suppose you've declared bankruptcy on the matter? ;-)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

How is a war in the middle east global? (none / 1) (#190)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:06:52 AM EST

I'm glad you're entertained at work. You've made my day go much faster, so thanks...

But I still don't understand how encouraging people in the global community to disassociate religious beliefs from fundamentalist terrorists (US and Arab) is less of a global approach than your's. If you can add something of value to the conversation other than plain abusive, anti-social behaviour, I would be inclined to consider your point of view.

However, you've taken the whole discussion off-topic.

If you want to talk about global politics, write and article about it... Instead of clogging up my article on Muslim representation in the Australian Media with your irrelevant articles.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

how is guadalcanal a part of world war ii? (none / 1) (#195)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:13:18 AM EST

i oppose you, because your view is wrong:

you don't solve a problem by focusing only on one part of it

the only way you solve the problem you are concerning yourself with is to fight fundamentalism, the root cause of the EFFECT your entire article is about

if there is water dripping from your ceiling and your girlfriend is acting hysterical, you say you solve the problem by telling your girlfriend to calm down

i'm telling you you go upstairs and turn the tap off in the overflowing bathub

get it?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You're really funny, you know that? (none / 1) (#203)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:23:04 AM EST

Guadalcanal is part of WWII because US troops used it as a base in the pacific campaign.

This is somewhat different to what you're saying though because the only location in this war you are talking about is the Middle East... Stop focussing on one part of the problem CTS and look at the WHOLE problem... Take your own advice mate...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

ROR (3.00 / 2) (#105)
by Sgt York on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 05:54:45 PM EST

Does anyone else find this specific analogy exceptionally funny in the context of an exchange with cts?

No?

Just me?

ok....um....nevermind.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ;-) nt (3.00 / 3) (#156)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:00:12 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Are you dressed up in your hornet outfit? (none / 1) (#191)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:07:40 AM EST

I thought you only wore that one for me!

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
Hahaha (none / 1) (#118)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 08:42:42 PM EST

No... You gave it a plus one because you hate it and you want everyone to know how much you hate it...

You can't just be a racist bigot... You need to yell "White Power" to the whole world!

The problems that are changing the western world are emanating from the oval office my friend... That is what's fucking obvious.

You can't expect me to believe that a system of government with such a fine history of corruption and treason (that's the US Gov) are the good guys in this.... Dude, you're the most dull person on this site.

Come back when you have a clue CTS... Until then... WHITE POWER!

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

white power? ;-) (none / 1) (#155)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 02:59:34 AM EST

where did i say that darling? ;-)

darling, you're paranoid schizophrenic fantasies are showing

it's interesting to see how the only person shouting that is you, or to even bring that issue up

very interesting

because what's true is you're the racist here: you can only see people from outside your culture as reflections of the actions of your own culture

you're world view ethnocentric, shallow, patronizing

in short, you're racist

and now you're shouting white power

very interesting ;-)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I was sympathising with your cause. (none / 1) (#172)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:44:04 AM EST

It's called sarcasm... darling... Maybe you should work on your mental comprehension because it clearly is lacking.

And I wouldn't accuse other people of shouting, given your flagrant use of caps all over this fucking article...

The thing I love about you CTS is that your comments read like you're talking to yourself. The advice and accusations you make only really apply to yourself... And you're calling me paranoid schizophrenic? Hahahaha... too funny...

You're the only one advocating a war between Christianity and Islam. I'm advocating the opposite. You narrow minded fuck.

Don't you have a clan meeting to attend to?

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

desperation clings to the air (1.00 / 3) (#175)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 03:49:42 AM EST

how do i respond to you?

just point ot words I ACTUALLY SAID

to rveal to you that wha ti am, and wha ti say, has nothing to do with the hysterical prejudice you think dumping on me means anything ;-)

look at the time stamp on this post dear prejudicial fuck

READ WHO I REALLY AM AND WHAT I REALLY SAY

and then apologizing to me for smearing me as me as someone i am not

http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2005/8/30/221437/284/160#160

your desperation is quite palpable

you're grasping at straws

i got you ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Actually, you don't (none / 1) (#192)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:08:52 AM EST

If you're so adamant that I am wrong... why not find evidence to the contrary instead of asking me to repeat what you've said... Repetition's your department mate.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
ok (none / 1) (#196)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:14:13 AM EST

you don't solve a problem by focusing only on one part of it

the only way you solve the problem you are concerning yourself with is to fight fundamentalism, the root cause of the EFFECT your entire article is about

if there is water dripping from your ceiling and your girlfriend is acting hysterical, you say you solve the problem by telling your girlfriend to calm down

i'm telling you you go upstairs and turn the tap off in the overflowing bathub

get it?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

So... (none / 1) (#201)
by D Jade on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 04:19:50 AM EST

You don't focus on one part of the problem to solve it. So we agree on that.

But you then go on to say that the only way to solve the problem is to attack the ROOT of it. But that CTS is only one part of the problem.

My article presented another aspect of that problem, which is the perception of the Muslim community in my country. That's just one part of the problem.

If my girlfriend was hysterical because of a leak in the roof, I would just go upstairs and fix the leak. I would tell her to calm down and relax first, then I would go and fix the leak.

Your logic is only looking at one aspect of the problem. So what you're telling me is that you are wrong... Unless you are speaking in a language other than english...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Thankfully (2.16 / 6) (#98)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 02:43:23 PM EST

In the future we will have solidarity as we will all be genetically engineered cyborgs.  And we will all be too intelligent for religion.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
The Great Satan (1.11 / 9) (#106)
by mikepence on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 06:10:57 PM EST

I asked a Muslim friend if they really view us at the Great Satan and failed to get a direct answer.

I want to be tolerant and everything and I have read a lot about Islam, but nothing I have been exposed to convinces me that those goatfuckers don't have it in for us.

Hey I know (1.08 / 12) (#124)
by Glutamine on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 09:24:58 PM EST

Lets write stories about shit we dont like as tho thats gonna solve the fucking problems

dumb pussy fucks    youre all tough enough to bitch anonymously online    yet sleep in till noon  are unemployed   and dont do jack shit to solve any problems youre always bitching about

F*ck you (none / 0) (#247)
by Sesquipundalian on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 11:04:01 AM EST

We do so!


Did you know that gullible is not actually an english word?
[ Parent ]
hmmmm (2.50 / 2) (#133)
by Neurosomatic on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 10:37:30 PM EST

Reasonable media analysis, though your alleged concern for the demonised Muslims would ring truer if you quoted one directly or had given any hint whatsoever that you had ever talked to one. I don't think there's any organised intent to vilify Islam in the Aussie media on ideological grounds, that is crediting them with way too much intelligence. More that the easy way to get readers/viewers is cheap sensationalism. Quality research and fair editing is not a consideration. I think most Aussies are fairly liberal and let people do what they want as long as no one else gets hurt, and as long as no one's demanding they follow someone else's idea of how to live right.

Thanks (3.00 / 2) (#141)
by D Jade on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:24:28 PM EST

I didn't want to go into too much detail. Mainly because it was an observation of the content in the media of the past few weeks. It's sparked enough conversation as it stands anyway, so I think I've done alright.

I have spoken to Muslim friends, about this issue and otherwise. I think that some Aussies are quite liberal. But it depends where you go. There's also a lot of ignorant bigotry inherrent in this country. The longer you live here the more you see it.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

One thing I found hilarious when I was in Oz (none / 0) (#283)
by deaddrunk on Sun Sep 25, 2005 at 08:33:43 AM EST

Was the hysteria about illegal immigrants. I reckon you should ask the Aborigines what they think about the matter.

[ Parent ]
Sorry...Islam wrote the book on intollerance (1.00 / 12) (#136)
by dxh on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 11:04:18 PM EST

Want to learn more about Islam without getting it from defenders and islamic appologists that have permission from their religion to lie to non-believers if it helps their cause?

Try reading the currently #14 most popular non-fiction book on Amazon, and #18 on the NYTimes Best Seller list

or this other interesting book

that link is broken dumbass n/t (2.00 / 3) (#145)
by tweetsybefore on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 01:54:36 AM EST



I'm racist and I hate niggers.
[ Parent ]
Crap: Here are the links. (none / 0) (#242)
by dxh on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:49:54 AM EST

Damn dynamic links....here are perma-links

Try reading the currently #14 most popular non-fiction book on Amazon, and #18 on the NYTimes Best Seller list

or this other interesting book


[ Parent ]

More complex (1.33 / 6) (#212)
by stuaart on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 05:17:22 AM EST

However wrong demonisation of Muslims might be, this has been brought upon them chiefly by extremist actions changing the tide of opinion. In this way extremists seek to split society such that the Muslim becomes the `other' and along with that, more persecuted. To only address one side of this problem (i.e., anti-Muslim feeling) is rather simplistic. The issue is that by demonising Muslims, we are letting the terrorists win, and are fighting their battles for them. The majority of approaches we have to dealing with this problem have thus far been farcical at best: the `war' on terror (where we try a conventional war against unconventional opponents, duh), detainment without trial, immigration controls, etc.

Opposing extreme views that incite violence to bring the end of your society, and replace it with a facist theocracy is really not unreasonable. The central point of importance is how these new laws are implemented and executed. There should be evidence beyond reasonable doubt to show that an extremist is beginning to go beyond just words, or perhaps that other extremists are being influenced to go beyond those words into action. Words themselves can be dangerous, free speech notwithstanding; we only have to cite Hitler's rise to power to provide an example of the power of words in the right climate.

Linkwhore: [Hidden stories.] Baldrtainment: Corporate concubines and Baldrson: An Introspective


you + interbutt + keyboard = boring (1.16 / 6) (#214)
by Friedrich Dionysus on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 07:58:07 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Come on, try harder [nt] (none / 0) (#215)
by stuaart on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 08:02:33 AM EST


Linkwhore: [Hidden stories.] Baldrtainment: Corporate concubines and Baldrson: An Introspective


[ Parent ]
lol effort what (1.75 / 4) (#216)
by Friedrich Dionysus on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 08:09:00 AM EST



[ Parent ]
The others (3.00 / 8) (#217)
by Saggi on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 08:38:27 AM EST

It's a tough question but if we start to restrain rules regarding religious beliefs we undermine our own basic ideas regarding freedom.

There is terrorist praying on the Muslim society and a huge part of the Turks are Muslims. This doesn't make the opposite true; that Turks are Muslims and therefore terrorists.

The media typically uses our fear and ignorance to sell stories. We love to hate someone. Its so easy to get rid of some of our anger on someone that is not really defined.

My brother once lived in a nabourhood here in Denmark. There was a lady who always hated the foreigners. (She used some really bad slang in regards to them, that I will refrain from using here). One day my brother asked her directly about the issue. "Is it Muhammed down in number 22B you dislike?" - he asked. "No, he's fine" - she replied. "What about Archmed in number 40 then? His kids play with you kids in the playground.", again she declared it wasn't him. Finally my brother asked: "Who then?". "It's the others!" - She replied.

Now a term like "the others" indicates ignorance. It's easy to make up a group of "the others" and project all your fears and hate on them. You can use this technique upon anyone you like. The others may be Muslims, the gang in the street or someone at work. We can use "the others" as a scapegoat.

Now the media can use this. In the news we hear about how bad "the others" are.

"Second generation foreigners robbed a bank!", sounds better than "A man robbed a bank!". In the first statement we can put our anger into the statement. Then we can think: "Oh, I knew it! Now they have done it again!" - confirming our faulty beliefs. And we like to be confirmed.

So how do we stop it? Once they had a law in UK, forbidding the media to use this kind of expression, unless it related to the story. In the case of the bank, the origin of the robber was irrelevant, and it was not allowed to be mentioned. Its one way...

Now I hope you thing about who your own "the others" are...

-:) Oh no, not again.
www.rednebula.com
you sound rather egotistical yourself (1.50 / 2) (#220)
by kbudha on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:05:42 AM EST

Oh shit, here comes a dissertation or master thesis dedicated towards insulting me now.
But seriously, your article was on point.
 Religous fanatics come in all shades of the spectrum. Sometimes I think the world might be better off without religon. Morals and ethics are possible without churches and religous organizations controlling the public sheep.
I especially love converters. You know, those ppl who believe that its their divine-appointed task to "sheperd those lost from the flock".
WHAT IF I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF UR FLOCK.
"Do you believe in god?" they ask me. "Yes I absolutely do. And I believe that you people are making him(or her based on your beliefs) absolutely sick."

Hear hear! (none / 1) (#224)
by rebelcan on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 12:12:09 PM EST

I totally agree with you.

I believe in God.

I just don't believe that religion can really work, because religion is a belief. Like Rufus said in Dogma: "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. "

I like to think ( an activity that seems to be in decline around the world ) about lots of things, especially when I have free time on my hands. Which tends to be quite often. And when I think, my ideas about a certain subject tend to evolve or change. Why can't other people ( especially people in power ) pratice thinking open-mindedly more often?

<sarcasm>People who are closed minded should be dragged out into the middle of the street and shot.</sarcasm>




=============================
God is dead -- Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead -- God
but Zombie Nietzsche lives! -- Zombie Nietzsche
[ Parent ]
cts - line breaks = (3.00 / 3) (#226)
by Linux or FreeBSD on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 02:30:55 PM EST

yuo!!!

[ Parent ]
do the poor guy a favor (2.25 / 4) (#228)
by circletimessquare on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 06:21:09 PM EST

and don't compare him to that fucking wackjob cts

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
lololroflmao u r teh funnay!!!!!!!1111 (none / 0) (#254)
by r0b on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 10:35:48 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Quite a tricky question... (none / 0) (#260)
by thanos on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 08:40:47 PM EST

WHAT IF I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF UR FLOCK.

Don't join! That was easy; next.

----------
Savinelli testified that Pickard said on two occasions that he had accidentally spilled LSD on himself, dosing himself with the drug. Pickard acted "giddy" and was less focused and organized for about a month after the second dosing.
[ Parent ]

said people (none / 0) (#269)
by kbudha on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 09:21:06 AM EST

They usually don't comprehend the word no.

[ Parent ]
i couldn't give less of a shit (1.16 / 6) (#222)
by Friedrich Dionysus on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 11:19:16 AM EST



Intolerance is here and its well deserved (1.75 / 4) (#236)
by VonSkippy on Thu Sep 01, 2005 at 09:54:27 PM EST

Anyone that can't rub a few brain cells together to determine the difference between fact and fiction or myth and reality deserves to be feared and hated.

Delusional people, no matter what flavor of myth they waste their time believing in are untrustworthy and should not be allowed to co-mingle with civilized society.

It's cute when a 4 year old extols the virtue of Santa Claus, it's embarrassing and pathetic when a grown adult does the exact same thing with a mythological deity (and bible thumpers have the nerve to make fun of people who play D&D).

You would think that natural selection would weed out the morbidly stupid, but unfortunately, technology has the negative side effect of protecting the stupid from evolution (at least in the short run).

I believe in science and math and physics and logic and am not ashamed to admit to loathing people who don't (I especially hate those that try to justify their lame ass lack of fortitude by claiming to be a scientist AND a religious person - there's a word for that, it's called Oxymoron).

Just like I really don't want to know about your sexual preference, keep your myth loving hobby's out of my face, or prepare to be ridiculed and scorned.

No yoooooooooou're the moron. (1.50 / 2) (#259)
by thanos on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 08:38:50 PM EST

(I especially hate those that try to justify their lame ass lack of fortitude by claiming to be a scientist AND a religious person - there's a word for that, it's called Oxymoron).

And there's a word for that statement too: ignorance. Actually, I guess there's a whole paragraph for it...

Science and religion do not properly intersect. Science concerns itself with the falsifiable. Religion is necessarily restricted to those areas which science cannot address. You really need to learn up on yer philosophy and understanding of science before you go around hatin' people in archived print to your eternal shame and embarrassment. ho ho ho

------------
Savinelli testified that Pickard said on two occasions that he had accidentally spilled LSD on himself, dosing himself with the drug. Pickard acted "giddy" and was less focused and organized for about a month after the second dosing.
[ Parent ]

Actually... (none / 1) (#267)
by fyngyrz on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 04:10:26 AM EST

Religion is necessarily restricted to those areas which science cannot address

You're trying to describe a grevious wound received while tripping over one's own feet as an honorable injury which transpired as a result of dedicated, careful combat with knotty concepts. Alas, it is not so.

To put it bluntly, claims for the basis of religion are limited to situations for which there is no evidence. None. That is why it cannot intersect with science.

Compare this to postulating there is an ethereal pink unicorn who runs upside down on fault lines causing earthquakes because we do not set out pink-dyed eggs in its honor. This also "cannot intersect" with science because there is no evidence for the claim and because the claim by its very nature is untestable. This -- in every way -- parallels the basis for religion.

Now, we can all make stuff up -- by making something up that is impossible to verify, in any way, in the real world, you don't get any credit. It's easy. There is no -- and I mean zero --- difference between the postulate of the upside down unicorn and that of a god or gods.

The fact that a bunch of people believe this or that in no way gives the issue at hand any credibility -- what it gives it is "cultural loudness", and many, many people mistake that for truth. However, it is not, in any way, shape or form, a sign of truth. It is quite often a sign of popularity. Some years back, there was a posting on USENET about the "rainbow bridge", the posting was in response to someone's pet dying. Soon, there were rainbow bridge cards, my veterinarian had a rainbow bridge poem up in his office, and searching Google this evening for "rainbow bridge" returned over one million results. This is "cultural loudness", this is something driven by emotion and not cognition. This is religion.

VonSkippy put his finger on it (in a very politically incorrect manner, which I applaud, frankly -- I'm pretty tired of people giving religion respect when it has in fact earned very little) when he said "It's cute when a 4 year old extols the virtue of Santa Claus, it's embarrassing and pathetic when a grown adult does the exact same thing with a mythological deity."

Religion is a sign of a mental problem. It doesn't (necessarily) mean you're stupid; it means you're failing to operate very well, cognitively speaking. You've accepted something with no evidence as an answer to another (set of) question(s) for which we don't have answers. That's what most scientists worthy of the name would call a really big "oops." The fact that they can identify this kind of oops is what makes them scientists, and not blithering idiots --- like creationists, who only wish in their wettest of wet dreams that they could only be real scientists as well.

There are questions we can come up with for which we are not yet able to determine answers. There are questions we can come up with for which we may never be able to determine any answers. Science appears to be, judging by every positive, forward-moving result ever obtained by any society, the only hope for any answers we're going to get. Religion is pabulum for minds that cannot face the transient nature of human existence, the challenges of human and environmental interaction, and the tiny, tiny little glitch we as a race and a planet represent with regard to the rest of the universe. I can feel sorry for the religious, because they are truly blinded in important cognitive areas, but I see no call to respect them.

And I agree: The religious shouldn't be allowed near test tubes. They've failed a basic test or reason; they don't know how to evaluate information, or more succinctly, lack of information.

Blog, Photos.
[ Parent ]

General agreement, but... (none / 0) (#272)
by thanos on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 02:22:15 PM EST

Religion is a sign of a mental problem

I think you're overstepping here, and maybe it's just semantics. Maybe you are talking about 'organized religion'? I don't think it is appropriate to say all religion is a sign of a mental problem. Metaphysical questions about the nature of reality do have a 'religious' component to them in that any answers we have ever had are not based on fact. And I don't think that someone who uses the concept of 'God' to explain that part of reality necessarily has a mental defect.

As I understand it, one of Buddhism's main ideas is that as finite beings, we have no way of perceiving the infinite, so there is no use conjecturing. I wouldn't call that an example of a mental problem.

I'm pretty tired of people giving religion respect when it has in fact earned very little

Question: where would civilization be today without religion as an organizing force in our history?

--------------
Savinelli testified that Pickard said on two occasions that he had accidentally spilled LSD on himself, dosing himself with the drug. Pickard acted "giddy" and was less focused and organized for about a month after the second dosing.
[ Parent ]

More... (2.00 / 2) (#273)
by fyngyrz on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 03:21:28 PM EST

I think you're overstepping here, and maybe it's just semantics. Maybe you are talking about 'organized religion'?

I'm talking about pink upside-down unicorn religion; religion that sells faith in propositions that have zero evidence to back them up. That would include Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and also more generally religions that espouse reincarnation, afterlives, and other 100% speculative ideas in such a way as to teach that they are anything more than speculative ideas.

...where would civilization be today without religion as an organizing force in our history?

Well of course this is a religious question, as it assume facts not in evidence, but I would speculate that we could be far in advance of where we are now.

What if instead of burning books, people published reviews stating their opinions? What if instead of burning people ("witches"), others became curious about the herbs they used to heal, cook and hallucinate with?

Consider... what if Copernicus, Bruno, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Halley, Darwin, Hubble, and Bertrand Russel had not been persecuted by the religious? What if the crusades had never been fought? What if almost a millennium of (sometime overlapping) papal and spanish inquisitions had not suppressed free thought?

What if the hindus and arabs weren't "circumcising" young women (chopping out the clitoris)?

What if marriage was a family management tool instead of a religion-sponsored club?

What if those who did social work for the community were full participants, paying taxes like the rest of us?

What if Hitler hadn't had Martin Luther's pamphlets vilifying the jews to wave around? For that matter, what if he hadn't had an astrologer? More generally, what if people wouldn't accept bullshit ideas like "destiny" and "fate" as justification for action?

I think that people who do good things are good natured people. For those who would argue that religion motivates because of a postponed reward, I would simply point out that good works done here and now can lead to direct reward here and now, everything from the satisfaction of knowing you helped to monetary, sexual, and social rewards. I prefer to think that mother Theresa, for instance, would have been motivated to join the peace corps, etc.

What if there never had been a book spreading the idea that women were inherently inferior, that they were "made from a mans rib", that they were bound to "obey" males? Maybe we'd have genealogical records down the matrilineal side as well as the patrilineal, and maybe we'd know more about our genetics as a consequence -- or maybe we'd just know where our mothers-mothers-etc came from, which seems to me to be a good, if trivial outside of genetics, thing.

We wouldn't have the raelians, al quaeda, the japanese "gas the subway" cult, Jim Jones wouldn't have had a lever to cause all those people to mass suicide.

I think we could easily do without moonies, crystal pyramid "healers", homeopaths, chiropractors, fortune-tellers, palm-readers... you get the picture.

We could do without Santa and the Easter Bunny, too -- I'm of the opinion that outright lying to children is reprehensible.

Look -- I admire people like ghost-hunters who take an idea (creatures that live outside of the physical bodies we are familiar with) and then take all the gear we have, focus all the analytical ability they can bring to bear, and try and actually find some ghosts. Sounds like great fun. And if they ever did find a ghost, well, that'd be just outstanding. Likewise, places that do real research on ESP, trying like mad to isolate anything that is non-random and repeatable along those lines, I admire those people greatly because they're advancing our knowledge -- even if, thus far, the results are entirely negative. If you say to me "I'd like to find (a/the) god and I'm looking" then I've nothing to say. Go ahead and look, by all means. It's a compelling idea, to say the least. just don't tell me you've found such a thing until you can prove it.

Searching is good. And people like to search; we're naturally curious, like a lot of other animals. And we're a lot more capable of indulging our curiosity and creativity, which is wonderful. Science is mostly about searching, less about finding (though we love to find, of course.) Science is hard. But... claiming to have found and being utterly unable to back it up -- that's just reprehensible. Not only because it teaches incredibly bad cognitive habits, but because it invents a handle on people that is illegitimate from word one.

Religion is bunk. Organized religion is organized bunk.

Blog, Photos.
[ Parent ]

So by your watch (none / 0) (#265)
by D Jade on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:53:49 PM EST

It's okay for more intelligent people (like government and media officials) to blatantly lie to the less intelligent common denominator because it's their fault that they trust the system that they live in?

What kind of warped logic is that?

I would say that it's unacceptable and that these people should know better than to actively deceive the "stupid" people out there...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

australian popular media (3.00 / 4) (#241)
by moon on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 12:01:54 AM EST

I think a lot of people here are missing the point of this article - the despicable actions the media, of which this is only one example, when "reporting" stories involving muslims, or for that manner, any topic these days.
I saw the media watch episode mentioned and it sickened me to my stomach -partly because I had let myself get caught up in some of the anti-muslim feeling that is going around at the minute- my feeling being it's hard to tolerate the intolerant. The furore it caused was really quite shocking. The switchboards on the talk radio shows the following day were lit up with people incensed by what they saw and heard, and I couldn't blame them for their anger. The way that Channel 7 edited the piece reminded me of an episode of the Simpsons (where the sensationalist news show do the piece on Homer touching the babysitter's ass). I know this is nothing new but it is a worrying example of how the media can turn a story into whatever they want with a clever edit. The show's producers assured the subjects of the doco that they would not portray them in a bad light - and then went out of their way to put together a vindictive, spiteful article that inflamed and offended many people who saw it.
The sensationalism that has become so widespread in the media means you have to be wary of the information they're feeding you and the rest of the very large audience they have. The problem though is that not everyone does this and they end up with a viewpoint shaped by a newspaper editor, or the producer of a tv show who, in the case of Australia, probably work within the same organisation.
What does that say?

No spluh. (2.33 / 3) (#246)
by Carbon Copied on Fri Sep 02, 2005 at 09:55:45 AM EST

Right wing media (tabloids/sensationalists) like to exploit peoples fears and ignorances so they can sell more people. You'll notice they always use THEM/THEY and US/WE to try and make it so whatever people they're demonizing seems like some outside strange and distant group.

Right wing media isn't naturally right wing, the only reason it uses prejudice and racism and targets minorities is because thats what sells papers, there are more people who have never met a black/gay/muslim person though still hate them with a passion because they are different, and in turn media outlets such as fox news exploit this fear of the other, and use misinformation to fuel the hate.

Hundreds of times a day people on fox news will lie or what seems to be their favourite tactic, focus on a tiny detail, ignoring the actual heart of the issue, (see the Karl Rove comments).

Of course none of this is helped by the fact Rupert Murdoch likes to make sure the people he employs have the same viewpoints as him, and therefore those viewpoint trickle down throughout the whole organisation so anyone who is hired won't disagree with it.

The american government is the biggest joke in the world stage at the moment. Using "terrorists" as a scapegoat for all thier mistakes. Waving the flag of freedom while in turn taking people's most basic rights away. Accusing "extremists" of being "evil-do-ers" while torturing innocent men.

Fuck, even if alot of them have been realsed after years without any charge (the US government still counts them as terrorists though) it's still illegal to torture prisoners of war, although the US government counts ANYONE they capture in Iraq/Afghanistan as a terrorist so they count as "illegal combatants" and therefore are not human, and therefore don't get rights.

The media likes to sweep all this under the carpet because it upsets people and makes people feel guilty, which you don't want if you're trying to get good ratings.

Right wing media has a simple forumula.

We're really great -> All our problems are caused by liberals and terrorists who hate us

Why do they hate us -> because we are so great (they hate our freedom) -> because they are extremist/fundamentalist.

I admitt it, it would be great to be right wing, everythings as simple as Good vs Evil. We're always doing good but there are EVIL people who just want to hurt us because they're EVIL.

The US has consistently broken internation laws like the Geneva Convention while still claiming the high ground.

I wonder how long the worlds governments can keep up the charade that terrorists want to blow us up for no reason, and that breaking international laws, killing 100,000 innocent people, and torturing thousands is justified on "the war on terror".

Which leads me on to the fact that I don't see how anyone can think "the war on terror" is not retarded. It's like having a "war on DEATH". There isn't a limited number of terrorists in the world, shit like afghanistan and Camp X-Ray only makes more terrorists. Terrorism is an ideal, you can't destroy it unless you destroy anything capable of terrorism.

SO UNLESS YOU KILL ALL HUMANS AND SOME OF THE MORE INTELLIGENT APES THERE'S NO WAY TO STOP TERRORISM WITH A GUN.

One example of terrorism that everyone loves to ignore is the IRA. They've killed more british than "Al-Queda asscociates" but we didn't go to war with Ireland for harbouring terrorists, no, we had peace talks, and we negotiated a cease fire.

Wandered off the whole australian media topic, but its kind of related :/

Links:

www.mediamatters.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X-Ray

You're in such a closed loop. (none / 0) (#258)
by thanos on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 08:26:17 PM EST

Right wing media (tabloids/sensationalists) like to exploit peoples fears and ignorances so they can sell more people. You'll notice they always use THEM/THEY and US/WE to try and make it so whatever people they're demonizing seems like some outside strange and distant group.

You mean like you just did, champ? And are they really trying to sell people!?!

-------------
Savinelli testified that Pickard said on two occasions that he had accidentally spilled LSD on himself, dosing himself with the drug. Pickard acted "giddy" and was less focused and organized for about a month after the second dosing.
[ Parent ]

You have poor comprehension skills (none / 0) (#263)
by D Jade on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:45:54 PM EST

Which is probably why noone understand you either...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]
I shall return the favor. (none / 0) (#271)
by thanos on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 02:04:30 PM EST

Which is probably why noone understand you either...

And you have poor writing skills--although your ability to know what everyone thinks of my post is uncanny, and--it must be said--truly amazing. Thank you for advancing our understanding of the issue with your informative post.

On a serious note, what exactly are you objecting to or exercised by? It's quite obvious from his own words that he's engaging in exactly the same type of US/THEM demonization that he accuses the 'right-wing' of.

------------
Savinelli testified that Pickard said on two occasions that he had accidentally spilled LSD on himself, dosing himself with the drug. Pickard acted "giddy" and was less focused and organized for about a month after the second dosing.
[ Parent ]

The media ARE trying (none / 0) (#277)
by warrax on Sat Sep 10, 2005 at 07:38:18 AM EST

to sell people. Where do you think the networks get most of their revenue...? Advertisements. They are selling the time you spend watching advertisements (or 'you' in other words) to their advertisers.

-- "Guns don't kill people. I kill people."
[ Parent ]
Fucking great points (none / 1) (#264)
by D Jade on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:49:27 PM EST

The only one I'll really answer to is this:

I wonder how long the worlds governments can keep up the charade that terrorists want to blow us up for no reason, and that breaking international laws, killing 100,000 innocent people, and torturing thousands is justified on "the war on terror".

Forever. Until the US collapses into anarchy and revolts the rest of us are screwed. The big problem is the fact that the US military has thousands of nuclear weapons of mass destruction which may or may not be pointed at all of us right now.

The general sentiment we get from the US world leaders is that you're either with them or against them (meaning we're aiding terrorists). See, my problem is that my country is involved in the conflict over in Iraq, however, I am yet to find one single person in this country that supports the war other than media and government pundits, who have no credibility anyway.

I wish I could find this average Joe of the "majority" that is calling for this war. But so far, they've been less than forthcoming.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Regarding that site being a joke-website (none / 1) (#253)
by satyr on Sat Sep 03, 2005 at 07:33:52 PM EST

Hehe, do you folks remember the: www.bonsaikitten.com site and all the fuss: urbanlegends.about.com/cs/animalsinsects/a/bonsai_kitten.htm it has caused back then ??

cheers, satyr

SIGNATURE:

________________

Male, relatively young and relatively well-preserved. :) I see myself as an open-minded person, a critical thinker, rationalist and skeptic.
by 2008 (none / 0) (#255)
by flaw on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 02:29:49 AM EST

an islamic flag over parliament house

sucks to be an ex-convict kangaroo-fucker like you

--
ピニス, ピニス, everyone loves ピニス!

Yeah I can understand why you hate the fact (none / 0) (#262)
by D Jade on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:42:50 PM EST

That one of our own runs most of your media and has more political power than most of your countrymen... It must really fuck with you...

Only Americans try to fuck Kangaroos. We're not stupid enough to think we'd have a chance of getting near them... Roos tear you to pieces.

Besides, I'd rather live in a convict nations that practises goodwill towards its neighbours and countrymen than one that descends into anarchy the minute something goes wrong...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

lolol sharia law (none / 0) (#278)
by flaw on Sun Sep 11, 2005 at 08:26:24 AM EST

soon it won't matter at all for you

--
ピニス, ピニス, everyone loves ピニス!
[ Parent ]
Your example of the Orthodox Jewish Community (none / 1) (#257)
by thanos on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 08:22:04 PM EST

However, our media doesn't see fit to publish an article discussing how they oppose our way of life.

Um, that's because they don't. They don't believe in a religion that has been Fighting Infidels Since 623 (TM). Is your head comfortable there in the sand?

This push to ban extremism is extremism in itself.

How so exactly?

But who decides what is an acceptable extreme view and what is not?

Um...the majority, as informed by their moral and political sense.

---------------
Savinelli testified that Pickard said on two occasions that he had accidentally spilled LSD on himself, dosing himself with the drug. Pickard acted "giddy" and was less focused and organized for about a month after the second dosing.

Ah... You call Shabat integration? (none / 0) (#261)
by D Jade on Sun Sep 04, 2005 at 10:39:06 PM EST

Orthodox Jewish communities are just as incapable of fully integrating with western society as many Muslim groups. That is the point. The media has presented the view that Muslims who stand by their religious beliefs are opposed to our way of life. That was what the story, "Us against them", was about my friend.

I don't see how pointing out another example of a religious group who will never integrate 100 per cent into our society is having my head in the sand. My issue is about misrepresentation, not about extremist Muslim groups.

How so exactly?

Because of the proposals that have been made, like forbidding someone the freedom to express themselves religiously for starters. Like the push to allow the government the right to deport anyone who disagrees with their policy... That's pretty extreme... Ah, the fact that we are told that terrorism is the greatest threat we face in this world a pretty extreme statement. Extreme because it's totally untrue and extreme because of the actions that have resulted from it (war... anyone? anyone?)

But then, maybe you don't think bombing someone's house with a plane is extreme.

Um...the majority, as informed by their moral and political sense.

Hahaha.... You don't really think that this is how decisions are made... By the "majority"... Your beliefs are laughable...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Explain please (none / 1) (#270)
by thanos on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 01:57:47 PM EST

I agree with you about not wanting any misrepresentation in the media. I tend to see it happening the other way as well though, where the media fails to report on the actual views and beliefs of the various self-appointed Muslim community leaders and organizations.

Orthodox Jewish communities are just as incapable of fully integrating with western society as many Muslim groups. That is the point. The media has presented the view that Muslims who stand by their religious beliefs are opposed to our way of life.

Muslims who stand by their religious beliefs are opposed to the Australian way of life. I don't really see a 'live and let live' attitude being expressed by any Muslim religious figures in Oz. If you think the level of integration of Orthodox Jewish community in Australian society is on a par with Muslim integration, I guess we're really looking at it from very different viewpoints.

Ah, the fact that we are told that terrorism is the greatest threat we face in this world a pretty extreme statement.

I don't think this is what the Howard government (or any government) is saying. They are saying that greatest threat is the nexus of WMD and terrorism--which is quite a different thing than just 'terrorism'.

Extreme because it's totally untrue

I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue that the terrorism/WMD issue is 'totally untrue', but go ahead and give it a shot. Also please tell us what in your opinion is the greatest threat?

Hahaha.... You don't really think that this is how decisions are made... By the "majority"... Your beliefs are laughable...

Ok, enlightened one. Enlighten me. How are decisions in Australia made? Just telling me my 'beliefs' are laughable is not very convincing.

---------
Savinelli testified that Pickard said on two occasions that he had accidentally spilled LSD on himself, dosing himself with the drug. Pickard acted "giddy" and was less focused and organized for about a month after the second dosing.
[ Parent ]

Gladly (none / 0) (#275)
by D Jade on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 10:00:25 PM EST

I don't really see a 'live and let live' attitude being expressed by any Muslim religious figures in Oz.

You're right, you don't see those attitudes. Why? Because moderate Muslims aren't worth reporting. It's only those with orthodox views that get coverage.

Until very recently, I lived in a predominantly Muslim community. I worked with them in community efforts, went to their milk bars. I got to know my neighbours very well over the four years that I lived there.

Unsurprisingly, they're all just like you and I. They have the same priorities; work, family and friends.

Many, such as those who have come here from Iraq and Iran, are happy to be here, thankful even. They are free to practice their religion and to hold their beliefs in this country. Something that was not afforded them in their homelands. They are grateful for this and embrace our culture as much as their religion allows.

If you think the level of integration of Orthodox Jewish community in Australian society is on a par with Muslim integration, I guess we're really looking at it from very different viewpoints.

Well, look at the orthodox jewish community. Here, you have a group who refuses to fraternise with those outside of their communities, excepting business associates. You have a group of people who excommunicate family members for involving themselves with moderate jews or members of other religions. You have a group of people that frown upon views conflicting with their's... Not much different from the perception of the Muslim community that we are being fed by the media. (this being said though, they are free to make this choice)

The main distinction though is that my description of the orthodox jewish community is entirely accurate. However, the depiction of the Muslim community is flawed. They are not all preaching Jihad and sepratism, that's absolute bollocks.

My point is that to say that the orthodox views of a fragment of the Jewish community represents the Jewish community as a whole is just as ludicrous as saying this is the case in the Muslim community.

I don't think this is what the Howard government (or any government) is saying. They are saying that greatest threat is the nexus of WMD and terrorism--which is quite a different thing than just 'terrorism'.

No, it is pretty much the same statement. What's the second thing that comes to mind after Islam when you're talking about terrorism? WMD's oh my!

It doesn't change the fact that the money and time and fear invested in countering the issue is massively disproportionate to the threat.

I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue that the terrorism/WMD issue is 'totally untrue', but go ahead and give it a shot. Also please tell us what in your opinion is the greatest threat?

And you'd be right. The US government has a lot of nukes. I'm sure they'll consider using them one day. In my opinion, the greatest threat in this day and age is the continuance of a pointless war on terrorism or, if you will, fearing itself.

Ok, enlightened one. Enlighten me. How are decisions in Australia made? Just telling me my 'beliefs' are laughable is not very convincing.

Well, firstly, you have this wonderful thing called the preference system, which we use to vote. This works wonderfully for big parties because there's something called the preference deal. The way that works is that the big parties make deals with independent candidates and other smaller parties. What then happens is that the candidates print off their nice little "how-to-vote" cards telling voters how to number their preferences, to "ensure" that you are voting for that candidate.

However, most votes are not decided on a first preference basis. So, all it takes is more Liberal listings of higher preferences than Labour for them to win that seat. I don't know who you vote for. But if you vote for a minor party or independent candidate, you would still only be voting for Labour or Liberal.

Look at the results from the last federal election. Many seats were won by very "close" margins. There were very few liberal seats which were won on the first or second preferences alone. Many people voted for them as a lower preference. However, a lower preference still counts as an actual vote if there is no clear majority on the first preference or below.

I don't need to go into further detail. Visit your local electoral office. They have lots of pretty literature describing how this is fairer for all.

Anyhoo, with enough preference deals made, your victory will be pretty much assured. It's very rare for a candidate with decent deals in place to worry about losing...

So it is laughable if you really think that your vote went to your first preference or that you could have, in any way, affected the outcome of your electorate by voting. You could only have had an impact if you were running for parliament and were therefore able to make negotiations.

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

What Constitutes being Anti-Australian then? (none / 0) (#268)
by Marvaud on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 05:46:06 AM EST

"The government would also have to reword their proposal to deport people with extreme "anti-Australian" views as well," I'm living here and I hate Australian Rules Football and I do believe the Aboriginals were treated despicably by my ancestors. However, I understand that schools, particularly government "state schools" as we call them, have a uniform. This means that everyone is expected to dress in the required clothing of the particular school they attend. This also usually means no allowances for alterations or additional headgear, accessories, etc.

Good luck (none / 0) (#276)
by D Jade on Wed Sep 07, 2005 at 02:51:54 AM EST

Finding a school that will not allow you to wear "head" gear in this country. Even when I was back in school, there were programs encouraging children to wear hats to avoid sunburn.

Also, you should observe school-kids a little closer. They always have caps and jumpers and other clothing present that are not part of their uniform...

I am not talking about the headscarf as item of clothing though, I am referring to it as a religious symbol of expression. Like the crucifix and the kippot. I've never heard of a state school that has banned the presentation of such icons.

I think you've taken the point I was making out of context. But in doing so, you've kind of proven it. See, I agree with the points that you've made on aboriginals. But to say this to Howard and his cronies could be considered extreme because they do not agree. The point is that it is ludicrous to suggest that dissent constitutes extremism. But then, Howard has spent most of his time in parliament trying to quell dissent (examples: industrial relations "reform", Commonwealth Supported Places [replacing HECS] and so on).

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Well said.. (none / 1) (#274)
by nlo on Tue Sep 06, 2005 at 05:18:33 PM EST

It is important people recognise that part of being in a free society is we tolerating other people's beliefs even if you don't agree with them as long as they are not breaking the law.

More people are killed driving on the roads every day then from a terrorist attack but we don't see a witch-hunt on drivers. Unfortunately, history has taught us that certain sections of society always look for a scapegoat to direct their frustrations at - from Jews to Pagans to Catholics to Protestants to Communists (and now Muslims) persecution of `others' just because of their beliefs is trap that I hope future generations do not fall into.

I'm torn on this issue. (none / 0) (#279)
by grendelkhan on Mon Sep 12, 2005 at 03:28:19 PM EST

BROWN BEARDY HORDES! Raping your women and kittens!

Y'know, a good friend of mine in school was from Egypt. I'm no longer in touch with him (we all kinda scattered to the four winds), but what I primarily remember of him was that he was very, very clean and well-groomed, and that he took not eating pork very seriously. Nice guy; he was a bit sad that he couldn't go back to Egypt because they have oppression there under Mubarak. I think he transferred to Economics, last I heard.

I wonder how different my opinion of Muslim culture would be had I not known him.

--grendelkhan
-- Laws do not persuade just because they threaten --Seneca

Melbourne Wogs (none / 0) (#281)
by BoogieChile on Sat Sep 17, 2005 at 03:21:33 AM EST

Long time reading, first time posting, 'cause I wanted to wait til a topic came along that I could maybe approach relevancy on.

Personally, I reckon it'd be great to have those anti-inflammatory laws passed. You see, these boys are Australians. They've been running around in Australian places like Footscray, an' St Kilda an' Cambelltown since like forever, man! Like since even before Lex Marinos had sideburns!

So if the new "It's people like you wot cause unrest" laws do come to pass, those three young Australian gentlemen would then have the ability to turn around and have the Sun not just sued for libel (which in Australia, often isn't a very popular victory to win anyway), but answering charges of sedition instead. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Doing a quick search on the name "Westside Turk" brought me to WogLife! , the website that tipped off the MediaWatch reporter about the "Gang" website. The link to the original website was posted there on the 3rd of July. In the thread are references to some of the "Gang" members on the now-vanished website. Two names in particular - Snoop Turkey Turk...and TurkPac - who apparently claimed to have shot someone - it's fairly clear that it is supposed to be a joke website. It's a bit like Fat Pizza only more so.

Qoute from the forums;

...and I thought some of us Lebo's were stupid these Turks really top it off. The site is definately crap - but funny at the same time.

And I just got to drop this one in here, too; The Average Australian Wog, for a slice of what it is that makes an Australian Italian/Greek/Serb/Lebanese/Macedonian/Maltese/Croat...

A segment of Australian culture has akways been e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y racist. The white Australia Policy was a particular piece of evil that survived for nearly three-quarters of a century.

The word "Wog" was pejorativly applied to pretty much everyone who wasn't British. Fortunately, this segment of our population are a lot stronger than that. Like the African/American, the Great Australian Wog has taken the slur that symolised their pain, the hateful word that followed them everywhere, taken it back, held it up to the light and laughed at it, poked fun at it and the people who used it, exorcised the demons from it and taken it for their own use.

On the other hand, Australia has seen, again and again, signifigant numbers of non-Anglo-Saxon immigration. The Snowy Mountians Scheme was made up of immigrants from over 30 countries. Refugees from all across Europe found new homes in Australia at the end of the World Wars. And there was a very good reason that old Ted Bullpitt (the other type of Australian) never got his own way when dealing with one of Australia's "new arrivals". It's because Australians, as a rule, don't like to see someone being picked on. They'll happily allow two blokes to go at it, just to settle their differences. But sneaky punches below the belt usually means that you'll have everybody else lining up against you. And it really doesn't matter where a person comes from, all that really matters is how they shape up for it once they're here. It used to be generally accepted that anyone who could manage a full days work in this country must be alright, mainly becaus it was such a bloody hard country to survive in http://uob-community.ballarat.edu.au/units/fs502/drovers.htm I believe - or I hope - that it's a sufficiently fundamental principle that it can overcome the narrow-minded parochialism that is still deeply entrenched in some backward parts of this country. I further hope that the current adminisration's treatment of refugees and asylum seekers is just a temporary aberration.


I didn't spend 2 million years climbing the food chain to become a vegetarian!

True true. (none / 0) (#282)
by D Jade on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 10:33:48 PM EST

I doubt that the media would be up on sedition charges under the new laws though. The laws grant the government authority to take such an action, not individuals. That's the problem though, because who decides what is extreme or what incites violence.

Personally, I am incited to violence every night when I watch SBS and ABC news. When I have to spend 2 weeks reading legislation for the new University Fee schemes I want to rip that government apart when Nelson comes out and says that it's making education more accessible for our disadvantaged (like say, rich dumb people).

I agree with you to an extent on the White Australia Policy. Unfortunately though, it's impossible to use it in an argument because officially, it was not a policy. It never existed in legislation. Though it was bloody obvious that it was in place. I mean, the current proposals are in no way surprising. We still have a firm heritage oweing to blue-blood Victorian England. It's quite archaic really. But they want to see a return to the good old days of Colonial New Holland. Back when unions were crushed by the police force in bloody battle and betrayal (Eureka anyone?).

I like your point about the word wog. It comes from Golliwog and refers to the Italian and Greek migration to Queensland where so many people were emmigrating that the local whites found themselves outnumbered two to one in a matter of years. Almost like a virus was spreading.

It's interesting how much the term has changed in significance, even over the past 15 years. I remember being beaten by some guy and his ten cousins one day for using the word wog. Now, I'll turn around to my girlfriend sometimes and point out that she's "such a wog". I'll call her dad a wog and he'll laugh about it.

Hopefully, the more progressive minds in this country will prevail. But at the moment, we're going straight back to circa. 1911...

You're a shitty troll, so stop pretending you have more of a life than a cool dude -- HollyHopDrive
[ Parent ]

Different take (none / 1) (#284)
by Ad Captandum Vulgus on Sat Oct 01, 2005 at 07:30:39 AM EST

I can't speak for Australia because I've never been there but in America when we see a grown woman moseying down a summer street draped like a coat rack in heavy garments, even though it's becoming an increasingly common site across America, we immediately--and this is obviously a stereotype--but we think she's ashamed of her body I mean what else are we supposed to think? It's ninety degrees outside and the proud Muslim women is dressed in a coat factory for the benefit of the three or four Muslim men in a city of sixty thousand who might see her and think "now that's a god damned good Muslim woman." Since when does starving your flesh of oxygen and sunlight make you a good woman?

Anyhow, I work with three Muslim men, and six Muslim women; some of them are really great people--just as great as anyone else you'd meet, but some of them are not. Some of them are really kind of scary and a little too devoted to their animalistic interpretation of the Islamic religion.


"The Armies we are afraid to stand up against will decide for us all what will become the truth. Their vision becomes reality; their tongue becomes reason." -Uriah
Breeding Fear and Intolerance | 284 comments (223 topical, 61 editorial, 0 hidden)
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