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[P]
For the Freelance Assassination of the Burmese Generals

By circletimessquare in Op-Ed
Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 09:12:35 PM EST
Tags: morality, flash mob, internet, assassination (all tags)
Internet

The problem with nationalism is that it will align itself with and act in the common good of humanity only when its own interests are also served. And of course, if its interests are served by stability, which might sometimes be served by propping up corrupt regimes, such as in Burma and its supply of natural gas to India and China, no action will come at all. Agitation then to get countries to do something is pointless. National governments exist to serve that country's citizens, not humanity. That fundamental structural defect means that nations are unreliable agents of the common good. They will never act for the common good of humanity on principle alone.

However, with the rise of the Internet, we have a wonderful new tool at our disposal for the advancement of justice. A means for all of humanity to coordinate and act on the name of the human good on its own, bypassing the morally compromised and ineffectual national governments.


The UN is also useless, as it is hamstrung by all of the competing national governmental interests in a Tower of Babel. Only when there is broad agreement on some tiny, innocuous, very narrowly defined problem will the UN glacially move towards getting involved. And then, it will be only to tiny, pointless, day-too-late-and-a-dime-to-short effect. Witness the recent murder of Senegalese forces in Darfur: in response, the UN writes an angry letter, and argues about the wording not being too forceful. Wow. Way to go guys.

And so, the good of humanity must be served by humanity itself, bypassing the UN, bypassing national governments, as the corrupt and ineffective false representatives of humanity that they are.

In Burma you have:

  1. Universal revulsion for the government by the vast majority of its own citizens. And peaceful action by religious monks. And brutal slaughtering and imprisonment of said monks in return by the evil junta.
  2. Revulsion of the government by almost all governments in the world (but no action). Revulsion of the government by the UN (but no action).
  3. Uniform universal revulsion of the government by almost all peoples in the world, in all regions of the world. But an inability to do anything (until the Internet).
  4. Decades of horrible atrocities committed by said government, punctuated recently by a vicious spasm of the murder of civilians merely fighting for the rights much of the rest of the world takes for granted. Nothing more than slaves being reprimanded for daring to question the Generals' will. That will being buying pretty baubles for their daughters.

Vomit.

Than's daughter, Thandar Shwe, married Maj. Zw Phyo Win, an army officer and deputy director at the ministry of commerce in July 2006. A 10-minute video of the couple's marriage was posted on Youtube in November to the fury of Burmese people. The ceremony reputedly cost more than three times the state health budget; the tally of gifts, which reportedly include luxury cars and houses, were worth a total of $50m. The bride was dressed opulently, with glittering jewelled clusters in her hair, diamond ear-studs, and "at least six thick strings of what appear to be diamonds".[3]

At this moment, early October, monks are being slaughtered, starved, falsely imprisoned, beaten, etc. Are we to stand by and do nothing?

No one acts, when action is desperately required, for decades now. Burma's Generals aren't going anywhere. The only way to remove them is via violent action. Most everyone agrees violent action is the only way to remove them.

Except the peaceniks with their heads in the clouds, who don't understand how problems like this work in the real world. For a demonstration of how Burma's military government treats peaceniks, witness its recent wholesale murder of thousands of peaceful peacenik Burmese monks. Does that convince you, dear braindead peaceniks that violent action is required? Or I suppose continued suffering by the Burmese people is better? Because that's what your malformed POV asserts. There is no other choice before you that your rationale winds up supporting. Your inaction serves the Generals.

We have universal consensus that violent action on the Burmese Generals is valid and just and required, earnestly. Well, why can't the Internet serve as the clearinghouse for organizers, bypassing governments and the UN? To:

  1. meet online
  2. raise funds (until the account is frozen by the meek selfish government who oversees the jurisdiction the accounts are in. The midlevel government official who takes the command from his superior on down to the administrator who disables the account probably agree that the Burmese Generals need to be taken out. But they don't want to lose their jobs. How is this valid?)
  3. form and coordinate an agenda:
    • Bomb the natural gas pipelines to India and China, waking the giants from their self-serving blindness: they won't get their precious natural gas as long as the generals are around, that they support to get the natural gas. So India and China need to stop supporting them. There should be no precious stability with the Generals around. This point must be driven home by bombing the pipelines. Embarrass the Generals, remove the only raison d'tre for India and China supporting them. This point must be driven home.

    • Plot assassination on the Burmese Generals, who deserve obviously nothing less than death, according to almost universal consensus in the world.

Four criticisms about this approach here must be addressed:

  1. An appearance of thinly veiled Western neocolonial imperialism.

    This idea of an Internet death squad pointed at the Burmese Generals is obviously motivated by universal human moral outrage. But some will kneejerk the Western imperialism charge anyways. It's typical and inevitable and braindead. So the idea is to short circuit the closed minded fools whose brains are stuck in 1907 upfront: membership in this Internet society to kill the Burmese Generals and bomb their pipelines must be tempered to deny many potential Western members. It must be a true UN of action, with members representing all walks of life, especially Indians and Chinese (the powerful do nothing neighbors: show that the true voice of the Chinese and Indian people (which is not Beijing or New Delhi on the question of inaction on Burma) is against the suffering of the Burmese for the sake of their cheaper natural gas).
    But regardless of the idiocy of the charge of Western imperialism, all we need is a bunch of wannabe Western soldier of fortune type assholes who couldn't get into Blackwater getting involved here on some sort of Rambo fantasy life.
    Furthermore, membership by Burmese isn't an issue. No matter what the membership rules, expat Burmese would fill the membership roles of this Internet society over the brim. This is a given. Nobody wants these evil Burmese Generals dead more than the Burmese themselves.

  2. Isn't this plot just like Al Qaeda?

    Not at all. The methods being proposed here are nothing like Al Qaeda. For gazillions of reasons, but here are two huge ones:

    • Al Qaeda kills thousands of complete innocents. On purpose. The only people targeted for death by this Internet society would be the few dozen obvious targets: the actual Generals, and no one else (well, in practicality, that would include any obviously gung ho partisan supporters who would protect the Generals and who would get in the way of an assassination operation). The generals instigate these horrible crimes against humanity and so far remain untouched by any sense of justice, which, according to most any moral code of any culture, requires that these assholes die. As of yesterday.

    • Al Qaeda doesn't represent the will of the Muslim world. The vast majority of Muslims condemn Al Qaeda. For no greater reason that the fact that the vast majority of the victims of Al Qaeda are in fact Muslims. So Al Qaeda acts only in the name of its own extremist views. Meanwhile, any action against the Burmese Generals is done in the name of and with the support of the vast majority of peoples in the entire world, most fervently in fact by the Burmese themselves.

  3. Isn't it the Burmese who will suffer for your actions?

    Well yeah. The common innocent Burmese will be punished severely and extremely for actions by a force aimed to assassinate the Generals or blow up the pipelines. But doing nothing means a whole hell of a lot more Burmese will suffer, over the span of decades. Welcome to the real world, here are your choices:

    • a lot suffering right now for actions against the generals,
    • even more suffering at a slower rate over a much larger timescale if the generals are not opposed,
    • there are no other choices.
    You cannot choose to not choose and still consider yourself to have a human conscience. There is suffering before you, you need to act to continue to have a clear conscience. OK, now choose.

  4. Too hard for a bunch of amateurs.

    Well yeah. But that's why you coordinate. In organization and in numbers, impressive stealthy force can be achieved, perhaps, hopefully, overcoming the paranoid bunker mentality of the Burmese Generals and their formidable protections. They are human, they are not gods. They can be touched. As Margaret Mead said: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
    All sorts of impressive logistical, financial, intelligence, and other assets come out of the woodwork when you coordinate and aggregate people under a common purpose. This is what the Internet is meant for: action for the greater good in spite of nationalistic ambivalence due to blind selfishness and United Nations incompetence due to hamstrung spinelessness.

So what say you humanity? Why can't we just Internet flash mob murder these asshole Burmese Generals? No one else will, and there is no other way out of this evil old impasse. Righteous moral outrage demands that we organize and kill these motherfuckers.

PS: You don't threaten the lives of powerful and very evil people without jeopardizing yourself. If you live in this world you can be touched, and hurt, and this applies to the Burmese Generals as well as those opposed to them violently. If anyone in this Internet group is killed for their convictions, or fall under the thumb of a government agency for agitating in a way that does not serve Washington DC or Manila or some other fucking nationalistic entity, even if much of the government servants might agree with the cause in principle, then I say this to the world: we sacrifice for the greater good, we sublimate our personal identities to the cause. We could die feeble old men, or we could die for a good cause. Dying for a good cause is way better in my book. So if we are murdered or are imprisoned or prosecuted to financial ruin, it is OK with us. Because we thereby bring media coverage to the cause, thereby serving the cause and generating more interest, thereby letting more good be done. We don't matter. Only the cause does. This makes life worthwhile living.

And the cause is righteous and correct and agreed upon by the entire world, including the consensus of the Burmese themselves:

Get rid of the Burmese Generals by violent force. There is no other way.

Murder this subhuman pig, Than Shwe, today. Everybody get behind this.

It won't be easy.

It must be done.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-John Stuart Mill

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Related Links
o the UN writes an angry letter, and argues about the wording not being too forceful
o buying pretty baubles for their daughters
o Vomit.
o 'They Come at Night and Murder the Monks'
o Monks massacred as envoy is sidelined
o Burma: UN envoy meets top general as regime blames foreigners for violence
o Bloggers who risked all to reveal the junta's brutal crackdown in Burma
o The monk's tale: 'We cannot turn back'
o Burmese monks 'to be sent away'
o Rambo fantasy life.
o Margaret Mead
o Murder this subhuman pig, Than Shwe, today
o It won't be easy.
o It must be done.
o John Stuart Mill
o Also by circletimessquare


Display: Sort:
For the Freelance Assassination of the Burmese Generals | 371 comments (332 topical, 39 editorial, 0 hidden)
al Qaeda is next door to Burma (1.42 / 7) (#1)
by United Fools on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 07:33:27 PM EST

and Thailand too!

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
please shut up nt (1.50 / 2) (#2)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 07:33:59 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
hey, will the monks stand up to al Qaeda (2.00 / 3) (#5)
by United Fools on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 07:46:25 PM EST

after the generals are gone?

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
[ Parent ]
oh hai (2.50 / 4) (#6)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 07:50:42 PM EST

u r teh stupidiest


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Thank you for the compliment (2.00 / 5) (#8)
by United Fools on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 07:59:07 PM EST


We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
[ Parent ]
GO FOR IT, DICKFACE (1.61 / 13) (#3)
by chlorus on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 07:37:39 PM EST

P.S. I DIDN'T READ YOUR ARTICLE BUT I PRESUME YOU ARE DEMANDING SOMEONE ELSE SACRIFICE THEIR LIFE FOR YOUR MANIAC IDEOLOGY.

Peahippo: Coked-up internet tough guy or creepy pedophile?

hai, please to be reading article sir, quote: (1.60 / 5) (#4)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 07:39:45 PM EST

PS: You don't threaten the lives of powerful and very evil people without jeopardizing yourself. If you live in this world you can be touched, and hurt, and this applies to the Burmese Generals as well as those opposed to them violently. If anyone in this Internet group is killed for their convictions, or fall under the thumb of a government agency for agitating in a way that does not serve Washington DC or Manila or some other fucking nationalistic entity, even if much of the government servants might agree with the cause in principle, then I say this to the world: we sacrifice for the greater good, we sublimate our personal identities to the cause. We could die feeble old men, or we could die for a good cause. Dying for a good cause is way better in my book. So if we are murdered or are imprisoned or prosecuted to financial ruin, it is ok with us. Because we thereby bring media coverage to the cause, thereby serving the cause and generating more interest, thereby letting more good be done. We don't matter. Only the cause does. This makes life worthwhile living.

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Oh CTS, u are mighty like Anon. (none / 0) (#225)
by tdillo on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 09:59:19 AM EST

I'm surprised you didn't submit this to more of them social bookmark sites and what have you. You know so u can get the word out. I don't think this is FNH level trollery but it might be good for some lulz.

The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.[ Parent ]

yes, doubt my conviction (none / 1) (#228)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:50:52 AM EST

it's your way of saying "i don't have anything to defeat your way of thinking, so i just doubt your follow through, and i have the right to demand proof of that, because i'm some random asshole on the internet you have to respect"

ok, yeah

zzz

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Where's Che Guevara When You Need Him? (none / 0) (#262)
by icastel on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 03:59:09 PM EST

Oh, wait, he's dead.


-- I like my land flat --
[ Parent ]
and a hero (none / 1) (#278)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:43:34 PM EST

for dying doing what he believed in

he could have chose to do nothing, as many alive do. and no one would ever have known the name che guevara. he would be a midlevel bureacrat in the argentine healthcare system

people love and hate those who fight. but regardless of whether they love or hate them, they respect them. for making of this life some sort of positive statement of belief, and fighting for it

for example i loathe osama bin laden, every fibre of my being is poised in hate for that man and the demented fundamentalist bigotted ideology he fights for. but i RESPECT him for fighting for what he believes in

meanwhile, all the voices here poised against me for desiring to fight for something: i don't hate these people. and i certainly don't respect these people. i feel a low grade withering disgust, like looking at a pile of worms. because when push comes to shove, the voices here saying don't fight the burmese generals: they will relent, they will get out of the way. they won't resist me. how do i know this? because they have TOLD me in their own words, that when faced with something you don't like, it is better not to fight, it is better to run and hide

because that's what their reaction to the burmese generals are!

those who do nothing in this life, don't matter. they fade from their empty pointless lives and leave no trace. they are merely inert resistance to be overcome, in order to get to the arena of ideology, and spill your blood for a cause

everything else is dead wood

the voice of every single word against my plan to murder the burmese generals in this thread is not a voice of reason, or morality, or human conscience, or justice

it is merely the same voice, in different themes, saying: "i resent you asking me to get off my butt and fight for something. please let me get fat playing videogames in my hermetically sealed western ivory tower. safe form real suffering in this world. please don't ask me to care about anyone else. let me die in peace and die without meaning in my life. meaning in life is painful. i prefer the bliss of mediocrity"


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

But maybe you don't understand (none / 0) (#365)
by icastel on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:32:17 PM EST

that the "many alive" that die doing nothing, die doing exactly what they believe in: nothing.  Just because they're not doing "something" to amuse you or earn your respect (pfft!), doesn't mean they're worthless.  

Yeah, I know. I dropped the ball for over half a year on this post, but, heck! it's fun and what I wanted to do.


-- I like my land flat --
[ Parent ]

what is the proof of belief? (none / 0) (#366)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:56:15 PM EST

that a belief continues to exist in the world

how does a belief achieve that?

someone fights for that belief

if someone believes in something they would do nothing to defend, that belief has no value. and when i say no value, i mean no value not in terms of its right to exist, but its ability to exist

for example, most religions are a pile of horseshit. however, they are an intricately constructed piles of horseshit that convince those raised in those religions to fight and die for them. and so they continue to exist, and so they are valid according to that measurement alone

i mean, if you wish to talk about a belief being valid even though it will die with its believer, then ok, suit yourself. but according to me, if you have passion in something, you want to fight for it, you want your children to believe it to

do you care if your beliefs die with you? do you care that your children won't believe what you believe? ok, again suit yourself. but all that means to me is you have no passion in your beliefs, so what is the value of your beliefs? what makes them compelling to me? what makes them compelling to you?

your own beliefs aren't even compelling to you?

so if i said "i believe xyz" and you say "well i believe abc" and then i said "thats stupid, you should believe xyz" then if your beliefs have absolutely nothing compelling about them, you would naturally say "ok, i'll stop believing what i believe and believe xyz like you". thats the force of believing in nothing

i doubt you would do that. therefore, i doulbt what you wrote above is a coherent point of view. i don't think you've actually thought through the logical conclusions of your beliefs. i think that you WOULD fight for them, that you wouldn't merely shurg your beliefs off when threatened to adopt another belief

all belief systems must exert an outward pressure in order to continue to exist. or they die. and that's how i judge a belief system. not any random subjective measurement, but simply on whether they continue to exist or not. by that measure, belief in "nothing" is invalid. it ceases to exist under its own lack of will to live, its own lack of passion. so, you have no passion in anything? i can rape a baby in front of you: no big deal? no feeling of injustice in you?

you lie. you believe in something. you just haven't formed a coherent pov yet. you're green and not yet fully formed

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

A belief does not achieve anything ... (none / 0) (#367)
by icastel on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 05:20:45 PM EST

A belief can die with its believer and that doesn't mean it didn't exist during its lifetime.  It was just a short-lived belief.  Also, it could die before the believer.  What says that people cannot change their minds?

I think what you are talking about is levels of passion and not solidity of beliefs.

I lie, you lie, everyone lies.  If you believe in something today, fight passionately for it, and discover that it was the wrong thing to fight for, then you were fighting for bullshit.  Worthless bullshit.  I have a feeling you're one of those hardheaded people that go around passionately tilting at windmills for what they believe in.  

What the hell is a "coherent pov?"  Point of view? No, I have a point of view and I'm expressing it.  You're just too dense to realize that people may think differently from you.


-- I like my land flat --
[ Parent ]

are you familiar with the concept of memes? (none / 0) (#368)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 05:35:15 PM EST

memes are like genes, and they are in the same darwinian competition. except they represent the competition of ideas, rather than creatures

memes that do not survive, do not matter. they are not valid. by the measure of their survivability or not

in other words, i am asserting to you, a belief only matters if it can survive and spread. if it cannot do that, it simply does not matter, and is not worth even addressing. beliefs that die with you are simply irrelevant to the world

where relevancy=survivability

for example you are communicating something to me about the passions in your beliefs. meaning you are willing to fight for them on some level. if you wish to continue with the logically incongruous concept that you would not fight for your beliefs, then stop talking to me. what's the point, accoridng to your own pronouncements about your beliefs?

again, it is simply a case that you do not yet have a coherent point of view. you have not yet worked out the logical contradictions in your own statements. you are green, and incomplete

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

They may not matter, but to whom? (none / 0) (#369)
by icastel on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:02:52 PM EST

I don't really care if you bring up memes and genes.  It makes your point even muddier, as if you needed it ... you never make any sense.  Now, suddenly, because you can't grasp what I'm saying, it's "logically incongruous".  Analyze "logically incongruous" and tell me if maybe you need to check your sentence construction.  Mouthing off, shooting from the hip, that's you.  Incongruity is seeing you use big words in your posts.

You say I'm communicating something to you, but it's pretty obvious I'm not.  For there to be communication, there needs to be understanding of what's being said.  And if there's no understanding, then request for clarification, rather than attacking (or is it fighting for beliefs?)

I do not have a coherent point of view, OK. What's yours? Fight? I'm green and incomplete, you're a hardheaded person who will never be able to relate but to other hardheaded persons who share exactly the same point of view.  Sorry man (if you are a man).


-- I like my land flat --
[ Parent ]

its very cut and dry and subjective (none / 0) (#370)
by circletimessquare on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:35:51 PM EST

start with a population of humans. let various random ideas enter their heads. whichever ideas dominate after a few generations, are valid beliefs

"They may not matter, but to whom?" you ask

i just answered that question: the subjective judgment of value of any belief is its ability to impress other people and survive in the next generation. that is the more subjective measurement of whether or not a belief is valid

you of course may choose to reject this, and value your beliefs in relation to your own egotistical championing of yourself over others. which is fine, for you. but it means your beliefs won't be represented in other people, and you won't influence them, nor will your children believe as you do. your beliefs will only have value walled off inside your own skull, and when you die and are wormfood, not even the worms will recognize your beliefs. your beliefs die with you. meaning: they are invalid

understand the subjective measurement of validity yet?

your beliefs have no value. where value=value according to other people, not just yourself. if your beliefs find wide resonance with many other people, they are valid. existing inside your own head, they are useless

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

RMC $ (none / 0) (#371)
by icastel on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:02:08 PM EST




-- I like my land flat --
[ Parent ]
actually (2.25 / 4) (#11)
by raduga on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 08:21:29 PM EST

the article suggests that "we" do it.

Where it is sacrificing our lives en masse, for CTS's maniac ideology.

In theory, this should mean that other people as well as CTS collectively sacrifice their lives.
In practice I'm a little more sketchy on the details.

I think the US runs a special training camp in Cuba, for people who are into that kind of shit.

[ Parent ]

maniac ideology? (1.75 / 4) (#21)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 11:49:32 PM EST

what do the burmese generals deserve in your mind?

i seem to be talking form righteous moral outrage

that's a maniac ideology in your view?

go, speak to a burmese, and tell them the generals don't deserve to be punished

enjoy the response you get


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

yes it is maniac (none / 0) (#351)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 02:16:05 AM EST

ok you kill the leadership of burma. then what do you get? a power vaccum?

Saddam was a real asshole too, but now that he's gone things have gotten worse in iraq.

acting without having any idea what the consequences of your action will be is mania.

[ Parent ]

worse? (none / 0) (#354)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 09:48:28 AM EST

which is preferable to you: the safety of slavery or the uncertainty of freedom?

nobody thinks you get rid of these assholes and then it is milk and honey. what happens is it is marginally better

and yes: you go ask an iraqi, after they complain about the al qaeda bombs and the sectarian strife, if they would prefer to go back to living under saddam

no one prefers slavery you fool

you lose moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

What do you care motherfucker? (1.75 / 8) (#9)
by V on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 08:05:27 PM EST

Why don't you mind your own business before going to the other side of the world to murder people?

Don't you have some ladyboys movie to film or something? Get a fucking life for fucks sake.

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens

V (2.33 / 3) (#16)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 11:39:49 PM EST

the voice of a human conscience

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I agree (none / 1) (#56)
by loteck on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 02:18:58 PM EST

it's time to start taking this same kind of mentality towards the traitors in our own government.

namely: all of them.
--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

[ Parent ]

It's stupid (2.25 / 8) (#12)
by FreakWent on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 09:09:41 PM EST

to organise terrorist activity on an unencrypted public website.

You will be jailed, and rightly so.

Who else will you kill for being almost as bad as the burmese generals?  North koreans? Blackwater employees in Iraq? Some sadistic kidnapper in the woods?

There are millions of people just like these generals who use violence and death to advance their agenda; the difference is that the generals have more resources at their disposal.  They don't appear to be bathing in blood, or torturing for pleasure.  IIRC, students were shot dead during anti-vietnam war protests in the USA; would this thinking also justify similar assassinations then?

You do not have the moral authority.  You need the publicly proven mandate of the people (ie lots of people), you can't infer, assume or presume it.  You can but shouldn't induce it.

You need publicly proven evidence of guilt, ie in a courtroom.

If you do what you are proposing then you are inflicting your personal moral perspectives on others by violence.

If you are willing to arbitrarily use force to coerce others to behave more in line with your existing preference, where do I fit on your list?

do you believe (2.00 / 2) (#15)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 11:39:17 PM EST

that the majority of people DON'T want the generals dead?

if you right, i'm a fool

if you are wrong, i pass all your tests, and you should stand with me if you believe in what you just wrote above


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

no (none / 0) (#194)
by FreakWent on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:06:55 PM EST

Didn't I say that you can't assume mass support, it must be publicly proven?

What you and I think aren't important; we could both, as Kurons, be really out of touch with the common man.

If the voting question was "What should the USA's top priority be in international affirs", with write-in answers, would "illegally kill the heads of state of Burma" get the most votes?

You can't pose it as a referendum and expect a reasonable response, since ATM the USA population seems happy to kill anyone with a non-english sounding name.  Try a vox pop with "Should the USA allow Mahatma Ghandi to live" and see what you get.

[ Parent ]

usa what? (none / 1) (#200)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:21:19 PM EST

what about the usa?

read the first paragraph of the fucking article

then open your ignorant mouth you fucking prick

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

fair enough (none / 0) (#241)
by FreakWent on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 07:17:09 PM EST

point taken; strike my last para.

The point still stands that I don't believe that over 50% of people support your idea.

[ Parent ]

yes (none / 1) (#277)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:32:43 PM EST

50% support more tv

so according to you, the existence of a lot of ignorant stupid people justifies inaction

actually, i agree with you that 50% don't care... as in, they don't care for the junta, but they don't care if someone take sit out either

in other words, they are ocmpletely inert, no matter what you do, good or bad

so what point do you think you are making by pointing out the existence of a lot of ignorant people? that you are one?

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

the point is (none / 0) (#319)
by FreakWent on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 06:39:28 PM EST

that you admit to making false statements in your support for your logic.

The entire world does not even support your cause, let alone your methods.

[ Parent ]

got it (none / 0) (#326)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:01:10 PM EST

"the people who are ignorant of any facts don't stand for or against you. this is proof you are wrong and a liar and that no one supports you"

you're a fucking genius


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

so you admit democracy has been a failure? (none / 0) (#352)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 02:20:02 AM EST



[ Parent ]
democracy is the ultimate destiny of the world (none / 0) (#355)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 09:49:17 AM EST

are you here to tell me you prefer despotism?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
furthermore, i would be jailed and rightly so? (2.33 / 3) (#18)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 11:45:51 PM EST

under what moral and/or legal authority? what moral and legal authority characterizes me as a terrorist and the generals as deserving of that moral and legal protection?

explain your reasoning please

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

easy. (none / 1) (#28)
by vivelame on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 05:10:00 AM EST

just like it's not OK to murder bush/cheney because they ask their underlings to torture people, murder countless people and arm terrorists, it's not ok to murder teh burmese generals.
Take care OF YOUR OWN FUCKING BACKYARD FIRST, moron.  So much hypocrisy.. Your WASPiness is showing.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
do you honestly believe (none / 1) (#49)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 11:33:06 AM EST

that what bush and cheney do is anything remotely near what the burmese generals do?

if you do, you are deluded beyond belief


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

why not (none / 0) (#198)
by FreakWent on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:18:34 PM EST

count the bodies?

Count them in absolutes, or as a percentage of their own populations if you like.

Also the Generals are under threat of being removed from office and probably killed, so there's a [weak] self-defence argument.

I don't think that Iraq was ever much personal threat to the neocons.  Please don't bring 9-11 into this, as that was not and Iraqi thing.

[ Parent ]

what? (none / 1) (#204)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:25:08 PM EST

there is a horrible crime

there is a proposed punishment

that's the discussion here

what the fuck are you babbling about?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Seeing either of those lying, deceitful (1.50 / 2) (#133)
by WonderJoust on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 04:14:57 PM EST

war mongering fascist fucks lying in a kiddie pool of their own black blood would put a smile on my face.

But I've grown quite jaded with our government.

Firebombs for everyone! :D

_________________________________
i like your style: bitter, without being a complete cunt about it.
-birds ate my face
[ Parent ]

why so! (none / 0) (#195)
by FreakWent on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:15:39 PM EST

you'd be jailed for charges relating to murder, under the laws of your current country (USA I assume!) because that's the law, as written by men with a legitimate mandate to do so.

The Generals are getting away with it because the international community doesn't have the will, or perhaps the resources to arrest and try the Generals in the ICC. They should be arrested and tried.

Their power is illegitimately taken, without the necessary permission of the people.  The people have been fighting to retrieve it in various ways for many years.

They have moral or legal protection from your activites in the USA because you do not have the mandate of the people to try, convict and execute anyone.  This power has been given to the judiciary, and the appropriate people in this case are the ICC.

If the cops are crappy where you live, you aren't allowed to shoot criminals on the street.

Now if your proposal was to arrest the generals and drop them off unharmed in chains at the Hague then I wouldn't be so dismissive, but it'd still be a dangerous precedent, as there aren't many world leaders who haven't trampled someone's human rights in their time, and if we had tit for tat kidnap squads around the place it would get messy.

[ Parent ]

you're a fucking moron (1.50 / 2) (#203)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:24:11 PM EST

"If the cops are crappy where you live, you aren't allowed to shoot criminals on the street."

justice does not flow from a badge asshole

it flows from a sense of morality

in short, you seem to have no sense of morality, just fear of authority

you're a meek slave


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

sense of morality (none / 1) (#242)
by FreakWent on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 08:11:01 PM EST

no, justice flows not from a person's emotions but from the will of the entire society; the mandate of the people.

I discuss the police not as they are, but as they are supposed to be.  I don't like the power the badge wearers have either, but it's better than having you, as a humanist, shoot me in the face for being a fucking moronic meek enslaved asshole.

[ Parent ]

the will of every single person (2.00 / 2) (#276)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:30:48 PM EST

who has the slightest bit of experience with the burmese generals, is to see them deposed. the native burmese, the internaitonal community. everyone

now what say you


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Me too! (none / 0) (#320)
by FreakWent on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 06:42:16 PM EST

I don't like them either; I agree completely that the vast majority of Burmese want not only a change of Govt but a change of the system, however deposed != killed, and replacing the system requires more than murder.

[ Parent ]
right (none / 0) (#327)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:04:49 PM EST

because we live in a cotton candy world where millions of burmese should serenely suffer in peace. why? because a cotton headed ivory tower type like yourself is vaguely uncomfortable with any violence expressed towards confirmed despots and murderers, to the sum of thousands of lives over and over for decades

maybe we can write them a sternly worded letter, and they'll come to their senses and walk away

yeah, that's the way the world SHOULD world. therefore, i have no problem with millions of burmese being treated like slaves, because i am vaguely uncomfortable with treating the some of the vilest men on this planet badly

yes, my conscience is clear

pfffffffffffft

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you need to go back to sleep (3.00 / 3) (#41)
by nostalgiphile on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 11:22:02 AM EST

K5 is a democracy and you're speaking to the Senate, bitch. Show a little more respect. Also, you contradict your silly self when you wax all pacifistic 'oh, murder is so wrong' and then say:
You do not have the moral authority.  'You need the publicly proven mandate of the people (ie lots of people), you can't infer, assume or presume it.  You can but shouldn't induce it.'

Transl.: 'killing is wrong, but if you have a mandate (the will of the stupid masses) it's quite okay.' That's the point, who represents the will of the People? The UN, the US congress? Fuck that arbitrary nonsense, I say K5 does.  

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]

Things are going (none / 0) (#130)
by LilDebbie on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 03:51:40 PM EST

exactly as I have foreseen.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
HIREZ CRYSTAL BALL SHOT OR STFU /in tea (none / 1) (#134)
by WonderJoust on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 04:17:06 PM EST

Would also accept pearl necklace.

_________________________________
i like your style: bitter, without being a complete cunt about it.
-birds ate my face
[ Parent ]

snore (2.00 / 2) (#212)
by FreakWent on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:04:50 PM EST

I can't respect CTS too much, he's always driven me insane, and I suppose it shows.

This is a tricky area so I'll try and clear it up a bit.

Personally, I reckon that killing a sentient human against their will is wrong, don't do it and don't allow it.  Capital punishment included, abortion not included (lack of sentience).

However, individuals, ie me in this case, should accept that when their views are not shared by the stupid masses, then majority rule is obviously fairer than minority rule.

There are very few absolute ethics, and don't kill is not one of these.

Neither the UN (which is supposed to be a talkfest, that's what it's for) nor the USA are good examples of power from mass mandate.

Democracy is pretty dodgy, which is why we have constitutions and sep. of powers etc to stop mob rule.

Regardless of all this though, you've entirely missed the point.  I wasn't saying that the USA or the UN do have the moral right to assassinate the burmese bastards, but that CTS does not have that right.

[ Parent ]

Not terrorist (3.00 / 2) (#46)
by boxed on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 11:30:21 AM EST

Terrorism is to use randomized force against a civilian populace to induce fear (or "terror") so that the public opinion swings agains the leaders.

Terrorism IS collateral damage. What cts suggests is the absolute opposite: the assasination of the genocidal leaders ONLY. No collateral damage, no war. No innocent deaths.

[ Parent ]

THANK YOU! ;-) nt (none / 0) (#48)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 11:31:54 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Umm... er... bombing the pipeline? (none / 1) (#135)
by WonderJoust on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 04:19:56 PM EST

Unless I misread, it also advocates mass destruction of the nation's (read: public's) property.

Granted, the ones benfitting from said property are the corrupts at the top and I understand as well as agree with the justification, but let's try to keep off the holier-than-thou pedestal.

_________________________________
i like your style: bitter, without being a complete cunt about it.
-birds ate my face
[ Parent ]

true enough (none / 0) (#143)
by boxed on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 07:16:23 PM EST

I forgot about that part, I was just talking about the assassination stuff. My bad.

[ Parent ]
Keeping the k5 ego in check (none / 0) (#147)
by WonderJoust on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 08:48:25 PM EST


_________________________________
i like your style: bitter, without being a complete cunt about it.
-birds ate my face
[ Parent ]

innocent deaths (none / 0) (#213)
by FreakWent on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:08:31 PM EST

innocent until proven guilty implies that these are innocent deaths.

I wouldn't call this terrorism, but it's still murder, and it's not a good thing.

Let's remember that it was an assassination that sparked the Great War, and you're proposing to create a power vacuum in a nation with fossil fuel reserves that borders both China and India.

Putting aside my comments about ethics and murder, it's also irresponsible.

[ Parent ]

unfortunately you're probably wrong (none / 0) (#222)
by boxed on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 03:30:17 AM EST

Most likely someone else will just step in as a dictator if the existing one is killed. Which invalidates the assassination scheme but in a different way :(

[ Parent ]
but they've been proven guilty (nt) (none / 1) (#247)
by Delirium on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 01:47:08 AM EST



[ Parent ]
you think like a meek slave (1.50 / 2) (#275)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:29:05 PM EST

this is your rationale:

"look they are raping children across the street, but best not to do anything about it, since they are really bad guys, and they could hurt the children more if we get involved, so best we just let them rape children forever"

you don't have a human conscience

what you have is fear of force. even if wielded by complete assholes. and especially force as wielded by those who want to do good, to fight the bad guys. you wish to preserve the status quo, even though ther status quo sucks. you see evil in this world, and your reaction to seeing evil in this world? you respect it

incredible

you have the mentality of the perfect slave

words don't express how much of a spineless useless piece of suck you are

why don't you shut up slave, and get back to your meek little existence, that you apparently prefer. because god knows, the bad guys are really bad, and they might hurt you. so it's better not to care, caring abotu someone only means you migth have to fight a bad guy

you're a piece of shit

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

metaphor (none / 0) (#321)
by FreakWent on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 06:58:06 PM EST

Can't we talk about Burma?  I don't care for discussing the rape of children with you. You have chosen an inappropriate and very unpleasant metaphor

However, in your hypothetical scenario, I would

  1. Call the police
  2. Go and intervene physically, at risk to my own health. I'd reasonably expect that the act would stop when I showed up, as the people either ran away or attacked me.

I would not unpack my sniper's rifle and blow out their brains, because:

  • maybe I'm hallucinating
  • maybe it's a Low Budget HDV Filipino anti-kiddie rape movie in NYC
  • I believe that it would traumatise the children even more to have the brains of the rapist splatter all over them.

I have a dislike of lethal violence. Humans are too fallible, especially in emotional judgements.

I don't want to preserve the status quo! The status quo is too violent! I want less violence, not more.  Why is it so hard to understand that I think murder is a bad idea, both ethically and from a POV of self-preservation?

I am disappointed that you can measure a man only on his capacity for violent action to resolve a situation he doesn't like.

I'm arguing with you on Kuro5hin; this is my meek little existence, and I like it better than fighting, yes; otherwise I'd be a boxer or something.

I don;t fight much, so I'm under-prepared, I'm not very good at it. You should not confuse this with cowardnice, nor should you confuse courage with being bloodthirsty.

Now you aren't proposing to "fight" the generals, but to pay someone else to kill them with overwhelming force. Don't pretend that you're in the streets going toe to toe with the military yourself.

You have presented yourself as the perfect american good guy. I hope you enjoy your caped crusade against muggers in the back alleys of new york. Do you have a cool spandex costume, like the tron guy? Can you link to a photo?


[ Parent ]

aw (none / 0) (#328)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:08:41 PM EST

did i pick an uncomfortable metaphor for you? i'm so sorry baby. you should tune me out. i'm a bad man. rather than serene lies, i talk of ugliy truths. ugliness is bad. happiness is good, even if a candy coated lie. i prefer that to ugly truths

why don't you watch your favorite video again of happy people clapping and butterflies? then you can forget that the world outside your hermetically sealed ivory tower might be a little muddy

so sorry to trouble you darling

just tune it out friend. close your eyes and cover your ears. om om om om. there all better. that bad man who said ugly things will just go away


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

subject (none / 0) (#345)
by FreakWent on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:06:31 AM EST

Like I said; I thought we were discussing Burma.  Maybe next time instead...

[ Parent ]
you aren't discussing burma (none / 0) (#347)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:28:23 AM EST

you are discussing a fantasy world where the UN is a strong proactive protective and just police presence, and despotic strongmen meekly listen to the will of their people and the world

you aren't discussing burma, you are discussing your deluded fantasies about a world you don't understand


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

What, do you want to hire Blackwater or something? (2.71 / 7) (#13)
by Psycho Dave on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 09:19:38 PM EST

Seeing that they're under fire in the congress right now and the Iraq War can't last forever, they might be open to the idea of an NGO hiring them for human rights missions in foreign countries...

If everyone could just wire a few dollars into a Paypal account, once it gets to a certain level, we can just wire it over to Erik Prince in a defacto contract on the Burmese generals.

Of course, Blackwater has already thought of this. J. Cofer "Flies on the Eyes" Black has been lobbying to for Blackwater to get contracts in Darfur for human rights and defense work. After all, they will need to expand their markets soon.

Now, I don't rule out the possibility of using private security firms/armies for this sort of work out of hand. In fact, considering the deadlock of the US army as well as the UN to act in these situations, this could be a way to stop these actions that the public widely decries but our leaders act powerless to stop.

On the other hand, would for-profit armies really be able to stop these actions, or in the pursuit of profit would they just end up trying to expand the conflicts? Could we possibly be just trying to legitimize a worldwide assassination market?

try reading next time asshole, quote: (1.50 / 2) (#14)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 11:37:19 PM EST

This idea of an Internet death squad pointed at the Burmese Generals is obviously motivated by universal human moral outrage. But some will kneejerk the Western imperialism charge anyways. It's typical and inevitable and braindead. So the idea is to shortcircuit the closed minded fools whose brains are stuck in 1907 upfront: membership in this Internet society to kill the Burmese Generals and bomb their pipelines must be tempered to deny many potential Western members. It must be a true UN of action, with members representing all walks of life, especially Indians and Chinese (the powerful do nothing neighbors: show that the true voice of the Chinese and Indian people (which is not Beijing or New Dehli on the question of inaction on Burma) is against the suffering of the Burmese for the sake of their cheaper natural gas).
But regardless of the idiocy of the charge of Western imperialism, all we need is a bunch of wannabe Western soldier of fortune type assholes who couldn't get into Blackwater getting involved here on some sort of Rambo fantasy life.


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
"UN of action"...lol (3.00 / 3) (#23)
by Psycho Dave on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 12:25:54 AM EST

Read the fucking comment, asshole...

I wasn't going off about "western imperialism". I was just saying that private security firms are angling for work like this. Big, all out wars don't happen all the time, so what some of them are trying to do is look for smaller scale conflicts that governments ignore because of diplomatic concerns.

Let's say a bunch of rich, Hollywood liberals really put their money where their mouth is and decided to hire a security firm to go after the janjuweed in Darfur? Since the US government and the UN don't seem to be doing much to stop them, wouldn't doing so really cut through all the red tape. The US and the world community would have the deniability a private security firm provides, and would reap political benefits by just staying out of their way.

Look, the eventual state of the world is going to be one-world government. It will not be the end of military conflict, it will just be fought by private armies instead of nationalized ones. There is good and there is bad involved in this scenario.

[ Parent ]

i don't understand you (none / 1) (#47)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 11:31:30 AM EST

do you agree or disagree with freelance offing the assholes?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
+1 FP, cts commiting a crime ! (1.25 / 4) (#27)
by vivelame on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 05:05:13 AM EST

just remember the important stuff, cts...

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
i'm committing the crime? (none / 1) (#45)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 11:29:32 AM EST

what about the burmese generals darling, what would you consider what they are doing?

so let me fix you're retarded brain dorothy:

we're punishing them

for the crimes they are committing

with the will of the burmese and the world behind us

understand now retard?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

what you're proposing is, at best (2.00 / 2) (#224)
by vivelame on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 06:08:58 AM EST

vigilante justice, at worst, terrorism.

Yeah, Usama Ben Laden and McVeigh thought just like you did, surprise!

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]

read the above story (1.66 / 3) (#227)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:49:23 AM EST

where i address that topic specifically

because people like you are predictable

and you don't read, you're ignorant

you lose, moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Oh, i read your "article" alright. (none / 1) (#248)
by vivelame on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 06:57:24 AM EST

It's just that your point is moot.
In a democracy or a republic, mostly no one is innocent.
You have the right to vote, and as such, you're responsible for whatever your elected government do in your name. Thus, yeah, children, infants, babies and disenfranchised people are innocent, and on that count, OBL and McVeigh killed innoncent people. But hey, that's collateral damage, and you've never lost any sleep about that when the victims were, say, iraqi. "Oooh, a mother and child were killed when we took out Zarqawi with two 500-pounds bombs, but well, omelette, eggs, you know..".

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
yes, that's 100% correct (none / 0) (#305)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:51:39 AM EST

please explain to me how progress can happen in this world without pain

please explain to me how the us is sresponsible for truck bombs, for example, that are set by its sworn enemies?

please explain how all mistakes are felt bad about, paid for, and investigated, including nutjob soldiers who raped the girl and killed the family, abu ghraib, etc.

yes, you need to break som eeggs to make an omelette

so exactly what is wrong with that concept?

the intention is 100% good, and any mistakes are apologized for, investigated, punished where appropriate, and amends are made

you prefer bad intention? you prefer iraqis safe from harm... as slaves of a despot?

or, more importantly, do IRAQIS prefer to be under saddam, or more unsafe, but free form that asshole

you, go ask them, you tell me what they say, and get back to me

educate yourself, shitstain, then open your ignorant mouth

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

well, obviously (none / 0) (#358)
by vivelame on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 10:23:30 PM EST

the million of them that are dead since the start of this little mesopotamian adventure can't speak, but i gather they'd rather have toughed it up under Saddam. As for the 4 millions more who fled the country, i guess they voted with their feet, which should tell you all there is to know about it.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
you tell me which is better: (none / 0) (#359)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 10:57:21 PM EST

safe as a slave, or dangerous freedom

it's funny, because morons just like you frame the exact same choice as ever encroaching security cameras blanket the western world

apparently, what's good enough for you isn't good enough for an iraqi, right?

you don't have a human conscious, you just couldn't be bothered with the iraqis and their problems

you're an uncaring asshole

why do you even bother with the subject matter? you obviously don't even fucking care about iraqis

why don't you just shut up and fuck off asswipe?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

better dead than red? (none / 0) (#360)
by vivelame on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 05:12:31 AM EST

that always cracked me up. You know what? That's about exactly what the average suicide bomber think. "Oooh, i want freedom from those oppressive puppet regimes! i'll die for it, yes yes KABOOOM". That's a very nice ideology you espouse.. Maybe you should report yourself to the FBI.. ;)

Obviously you don't give a shit about iraqis, or you'd be over there dieing for them, and you're obviously not, because, you know, you pay soldiers to do that for you. "i care, i pay taxes!". Hypocrite.

BTW, the kurds will soon thank you! Your hero GWB is falling over himself to bomb them with cruise missiles before the turks do.. Now THAT's going to be funnny to watch.


--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]

i can kill your pov once and for all (none / 0) (#361)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 09:12:32 AM EST

name a superior solution

or shut up

you have criticisms of the solution that happened

ok, fine

do you have a better answer?

if not, shut up, and accept that in life that just because it is not all milk and honey, doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. in real life, you are given choices between sucky, and slightly less sucky

you criticize from the point of view that the land of milk and honey was not created in iraq

as if that is a valid pov anyone should take seriously


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Hi Echelon (2.57 / 7) (#29)
by some nerd on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 06:52:15 AM EST

Your assassination fund is an old idea, first popularised on FidoNet as "Assasination Politics." This includes the rather important fact that donors to an assassination fund need cryptographic anonymity, lest they fall prey to the laws of TEH EVIL NATION STATES (and in this case death via horrific torture if they're Burmese.)

Anonymous payment systems, for varying values of "anonymous", have actually been in operation for a while using current anonymity networks like Freenet / IIP / Tor. As far as I know the pioneer was the now defunct Yodel Bank, currently there's a similar "eCache" system on Tor. Obviously for something like this you would want to be pretty damn sure the network was secure / strongly anonymous / hard to detect however (which Tor isn't), since you're basically talking about organising a global terrorist movement. Nice terrorists, but terrorists nonetheless, ror chaotic good. No network is really up to this standard yet. IMO freenet in darknet mode remains the most promising, but needs premix routing etc. Smaller scale direct action groups could probably operate successfully using such networks now, though.

Fundamentally I have to admit this concept is appealing. It would be a lot more effective to help arrange a little accident for people like Mugabe than wait in vain hope that our governments might do something meaningful. Of course, a problem with any vigilante system is that it could be used against whom we deem to be the "good guys" too; that said, I doubt there's quite as much hatred worldwide for prominent peace activists etc as there is for vile tyrants. Also it's doubtful whether knocking off the current leader of $DESPOTIC_REGIME would really achieve anything other than the election of his second in command, but that's an issue of tactics rather than a fundamental problem with the concept. In the case of Burma I think constant bombing of the pipelines as you suggest could be quite effective.

+1FP.

--
Home Sweet Home

Also : (none / 1) (#30)
by some nerd on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:34:00 AM EST

It's worth mentioning that widespread non-violent(?) action against investors in the Burmese regime could cause them serious problems. However, if the will to do that was there it would already have happened to a greater extent. So I suppose we're back to relying on a "small group of thoughtful, committed citizens" for any chance of effecting real change.

--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]
no, that's bullshit (none / 1) (#43)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 11:26:40 AM EST

total elf (or whatever, maybe wrong company) in france is already feeling a lot of heat for being involved in burma

and total elf's response is dead on accurate, and proves you wrong: they pull out, and businesses with far less scruples immiedately replace them. china and india go deeper in, replacing all of the western investment

which is probably worse, as the chinese and indians are not in anyway interested in rocking the boat


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

excellent, well said (2.00 / 2) (#42)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 11:23:05 AM EST

however, about the bad guys doing the same: they already are

anti-syrian lebanese politicians and car bombs?
ukranian politicians and dioxin?
russian expats in london trying to enjoy polonium-210 free tea?

so nothing lost there

and yes, mugabe should be next... however: unlike burma, i think he still enjoys a modicum of popular support in zimbabwe. he used to be a great hero there in the 80s. also, he's taken a walk on the reallty insane side only recently (last few years)

that's problematic. yes, he's driving his country in to destitute ruin, but he hasn't been doing it long enough, and i think (prove me wrong please) he still enjoys a little popular support

meanwhile, the burmese generals are almost universally loathed by all burmese, and they have been things far far worse than mugabe (murdering thousands is a lot worse than driving the economy into the ground and destroying shanty towns) for a lot longer time (they started in the 80s when mugabe was still a hero... they were never heroes)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Well, yes (none / 1) (#60)
by some nerd on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 04:00:53 PM EST

I was thinking more along the lines of neo-nazi redneck types vs. teh ZOG etc. Although observation of them in their natural habitat indicates they're mostly interested in pathetic infighting and spouting crazy bullshit, and thus probably lack the ability to do such a thing without fucking it up.

--
Home Sweet Home

[ Parent ]
Naive: Why can't they do it themselves? (none / 1) (#214)
by FreakWent on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:13:41 PM EST

"the burmese generals are almost universally loathed by all burmese"

Some of these people must have access to weapons.  Why would outsiders succeed where insiders do not?  Apache helicopters or something?

[ Parent ]

are you trying to prove you're low iq? (none / 1) (#218)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:36:14 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
not really (2.00 / 2) (#244)
by FreakWent on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 08:16:05 PM EST

Just asking for details.

IIRC, there exists an opposing military force in the Shan state of burma already.  What will your hired rambos have that they do not?

Besides, you never once mentioned heroin, so I think perhaps you have failed to consider all aspects of power in Burma.  You need a lot more research and detailed evidence to back up your ideas.

http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/heroin.html

I have this on VHS, if you'd like me to send you a copy.


[ Parent ]

heroin (none / 1) (#274)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:23:11 PM EST

the golden triangle is dead, all dried up, replaced by afghanistan

shan: neutralized, squashed

anything else i can help you with today retard?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Wrong again and again and again. (none / 1) (#324)
by FreakWent on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 07:51:33 PM EST

CTS you need to use words that mean the things you want to say, or you ending up saying stupid things, followed by random abuse. It's a repeating pattern that's not helping us find any common ground to base an interesting discussion on.

Burmese production (not the whole triangle, just Burma; stay on topic!) is not all dried up, it's up 30% on last year and growing.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/12/2057394.htm

This is a significant source of export revenue which has been fought over for many decades.

As for the Shan, according to this propaganda website, they have apparently cordoned off "their" area and are in peace talks with the Junta.

http://www.shanland.org/war/2007/wa-throws-cordon-round-domain/

They are no longer the force they used to be, but they are men with guns, so my question stands:

Why would your men with guns do better than these men with guns? Air support? Yakuza ninjas? You must have some ideas, surely?

Your idea is short-sighted and reckless. You haven't mentioned the drug crops or the rebel army(ies?) that exist in burma, and you've dismissed them when mentioned by others.

If you kill these Generals there will be civil war. You haven't covered this at all in your article, you've only mentioned reprisals from the (supposedly dead?) Generals.

There's no reason to think that any better government can succeed in Burma in the next thirty years or so. There are plenty of people in SE Asia who'd love to get in on the opium action and try their hand at a bit of warlord junta-ism themselves, not to mention various Jihadi groups who'd love to setup camp in Burma. I'm told that Jamar Islamir, for example, has been squeezed out of other nations and now only exists in Indonesia.  I don't think they've got what it takes to hold Burma, but they still might try.

I know not every drug baron can or wants to run the nation, but some will, and plenty more will want a "slice of the action".

For the big guys India and China, there's gold and gas and a port on the West of the  Malacca strait. China would probably back anyone who can provide reliable access to all these, leaving the opium and the people up to whoever wins.

Now if you don't agree with this analysis, fine! explain about the opium trade, and explain about the Wa people.  It should have been in the article but these are some of the defining aspects of Burma and the Junta, so you can't just pretend they aren't there or your planning will be flawed and you won't get the results you want.

Just like Iraq.

[ Parent ]

i see (none / 0) (#331)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:20:49 PM EST

the way of freedom is hard and long and difficult. better to shut up and be a slave

this pseaks to me more of your own psychology of meek slavehood. but why do you speak to me of the fight for freedom in burma? you obviously hav eno empathy or a human conscience or any principles. you respec tthe evil men with all the guns. you apologize for them

so why do you think you have any power voer me or relevance?

you accept despotism. you are a salve. you choose slavery. i do not. why do you think i will accept what is unacceptable if you wish to consider yourself a human being. and yet, you have accepted it

because to fight it is too hard

aww, poor baby


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

stop ignoring the point. (none / 0) (#346)
by FreakWent on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:14:11 AM EST

Yes it is.

Because you solicited feedback.

I respect danger, in the sense that I would respect any firearm.  I think that's wise, respect is not reverence.

I didn't apologise for them.

I don't have power over you.  I'm relevant because I'm discussing Burma; you seem to have drifted off-topic.

I accept that despotism is part of reality. I am not a slave, I am free. I am lucky.

Fighting for the freedom of others is not too hard, I think we agree more than we disagree.

My problem is not the idea of a better government in Burma, just that your idea is stupid. I've explained why elsewhere, but you've not engaged in discussion.

I don't want to talk about whether or not I'm a poor baby, I have a 3 yo at home for those discussions.

I hope we can be more constructive when we next meet.


[ Parent ]

constructive? (none / 0) (#348)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:31:53 AM EST

the burmese generals don't respect their people

the burmese generals don't respec tinternational will

please, PLEASE: be constructive: how do we get rid of the burmese generals

or is ti your notion that we can't do that, and that we should therefore accept them

i can't do that, apparently you can

which means you make my blood boi8l, that you can accept people so evil in this world

no: kill them, via any means possible. is it hard, is it difficult? of course!

and i am willing to go by ANY other plan you can constructively demonstrate to me that gets rid of the generals NOW

ANY OTHER goal is invalid in my eyes

so please: be constructive, educate me: show me a better plan to get of rid of the murderous assholes

i don't think you can

in which case, shut up, and support me


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Well done cts. +FP (1.50 / 2) (#31)
by dakini on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 08:10:03 AM EST



" May your vision be clear, your heart strong, and may you always follow your dreams."
haha kiss of death $ (1.50 / 2) (#63)
by loteck on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 04:20:10 PM EST


--
"You're in tune to the musical sound of loteck hi-fi, the musical sound that moves right round. Keep on moving ya'll." -Mylakovich
"WHAT AN ETERNAL MOBIUS STRIP OF FELLATIATIC BANALITY THIS IS." -Harry B Otch

[ Parent ]
You've been here long enough to remember (none / 1) (#33)
by wiredog on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 09:32:10 AM EST

that the US Secret Service reads this website.

The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.
Phage

why should i fucking care? (2.00 / 2) (#38)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 11:15:36 AM EST

there is free speech in the usa. the fucking idiot and chief just went on record at the un general assembly saying the burmese generals need to go

and you don't mean the secret service, they only care about gw bush, the us president not the burmese generals

what you mean is the nsa, cia, fbi, etc. and even if the cia or fbi put an asterix next to my name for saying this, so fucking what? the assholes probably agree with me if they don't have their own plan in place already!

worse worry for me is when i am in the philippines: they would care more than the usa about shutting me up. it's ASEAN. plotting the toppling of the top of another memeber, even if all of ASEAN hates the burmese generals as well, as they do, is something Palasyo ng Malakanyang would not tolerate

but even if they somehow went after me for saying this, which is highly unlikely, why should i care? i will have a clean conscience. what's the worse they could do to me? jail me? financially ruin me?

ok

but i will have a clear conscience

i'd rather be homeless and destitute with a clean conscience than rich and in a penthouse with a compromised conscience


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

wtf, they do? (none / 0) (#117)
by Ezra Loomis Pound on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 10:16:24 AM EST

shit, we've gotta get out of this place then...

:::"Let me tell ya, if she wasn't cut out to handle some fake boy online, well sister, life only gets more difficult, and you only get more emo as you age." --balsamic vinigga :::#_#:::
[ Parent ]
Nobody expects it (none / 0) (#174)
by Scrymarch on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:32:07 AM EST

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/12/20/211923/84

[ Parent ]
I've always thought (none / 1) (#185)
by wiredog on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 02:26:14 PM EST

my comment was more "threatening" than his...

The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.
Phage
[ Parent ]

True (none / 0) (#221)
by Scrymarch on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 01:35:14 AM EST

Like he said at the time, it was probably his slightly unusual religious history that combined for the red flag. The Secret Service, keeping America safe from the devout.

[ Parent ]
There seems to be a disconnect (2.50 / 2) (#34)
by rpresser on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 09:32:31 AM EST

between "large numbers" and "stealthy action".  Even between "large numbers" and "quick action".
------------
"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty
yes (none / 1) (#35)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 10:59:04 AM EST

but basically, any numbers and any action is what is needed, so advertise for the best possible outcome and cross your fingers

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
We must do something! This is something, thus...$ (3.00 / 2) (#215)
by FreakWent on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:15:23 PM EST



[ Parent ]
that's 100% true (none / 0) (#273)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:21:12 PM EST

what is wrong with that?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I didn't explain properly (none / 0) (#325)
by FreakWent on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 07:55:45 PM EST

I was quoting this old line from wherever:

We must do something! This is something, therefore we must do this!

See the problem here? We need to make sure that the something will lead to the correct outcome, which is the liberation of the Burmese.

It seems to me that the only outcome you care about is the death of the Generals, and after that everything else is not your problem.

[ Parent ]

for a simple reason (none / 0) (#330)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:16:46 PM EST

99% of possible outcomes is better than the generals

for example, some point to the mess in iraq and say "see? better under saddam"

well of course, the slave is housed and clothed and safe under the watch of the guard dogs. freedom and the search for it is ugly and dangerous and unsafe

and yet the iraqis prefer things now, to living under saddam. no one ever said that saddam would be taken out and everythign would be milk and honey. things suck balls in iraq. and yet it is still BETTER than to be under saddam

say the IRAQIS!!!!!!!!

why is that?

maybe because human beings don't like living as slaves?

but listening to someone like you, and you say to them, "we can't help you fight for your freedom, because it might be unsafe for you. better you live as a slave"

you have no human conscience. you have no principles. you talk, in fact, like a meek slave. you're the perfect firend of the despot. you apologize for him. you prefer safety over freedom. you are irrelevant ignorant slime

leave freedom and the fight for it to the big boys friend. you're too small and spineless ot speak of that which you don't deserve, because you choose despotism over uncertain freedom


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

governments are always to some degree a reflection (2.83 / 6) (#51)
by insomnyuk on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 12:18:18 PM EST

of public opinion. The Burmese military has been killing monks and denying them their merits during burial, a huge deal for devout Buddhists. Machiavelli warned that when you oppress and keep down men, you do not mess with their women or their religion.

The Burmese government will get theirs when the people of Burma decide to overthrow it, and with the simmering hatred that will now be below the surface, it is my opinion that it is only a matter of time. The elite soldiers that were orphans raised by the military since childhood are willing to fire on anyone, they do not disobey orders. The Burmese government also had to entirely shut off the internet for a period in an attempt to stop the flow of legitimate information out of the country. Now that the people understand they have power and understand their two biggest obstacles, they will be able to overcome them, aided by the personal vendettas that the government has now given them.

Your solution is, regardless of morality, strategically flawed. First, Burma is ruled by a military junta, so unless you just want someone to replace Than Shwe and the top generals, calling for their deaths won't accomplish anything. First, would you be able to find or track down all the generals? Burma has bad infrastructure and telecommunications resources. It would be like hunting Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, except it would be harder, because it would be in a jungle. Furthermore, you would not only have to execute all of the most senior officers, but you would have to dismantle their command and funding structure to really eliminate their control over the country, and how are you going to do that? What would happen is there would be a short, vicious internal struggle for power within the military, but as long as it remained it would retain power and life wouldn't change much for the average person.

Furthermore, your article by itself gives credence to the Burmese government's claims that the protests were the products of foreign agitation and influence. Here we have a Filipino living in America advocating not only regime change in Burma but assassination, and gives them the excuse to crack down even harder on their citizens. By trying to make it a zero sum game, by pushing for assassination which effectively rules out exile or asylum, you are guaranteeing more vicious violence carried out on the people of Burma.

So, to sum up, you're doing it wrong.

---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken

why you're wrong (1.33 / 3) (#52)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 12:27:19 PM EST

1. "Now that the people understand they have power and understand their two biggest obstacles, they will be able to overcome them, aided by the personal vendettas that the government has now given them."

you don't really understand what they are up against do you?

the burmese military is well equipped, well fed. and they have no problem mowing down thousands of revered monks and civilians. they have done this already numerous times. a popular revolt will result in merely tens of thousands of dead. help must come from the outside

2. who will replace the generals you say?

Aung San Suu Kyi

she won the 1990 election in a landslide

duh

of course, a general is murdered, they won't allow this. so you keep murdering them. then fear among the military and agitation of hope in the populace will propel aung san where she belongs

3. "Furthermore, your article by itself gives credence to the Burmese government's claims that the protests were the products of foreign agitation and influence"

yeah. because what the generals say needs to be resepcted or viewed as anything other than pure bullshit

they raised gas prices moron. the monks, the young monks, AGAINST the will of the older monks, agitated

yes, all on their own moron. why the fuck do you think what the gnerals say about foreign influence has the slightest shred of validity?

4. "By trying to make it a zero sum game, by pushing for assassination which effectively rules out exile or asylum, you are guaranteeing more vicious violence carried out on the people of Burma."

i already addressed this above. the massive amount of deaths in the short term from chaos is still less than the decades of future low numbers of deaths, piling up, and other suffering

you ask a burmese if he would rather potentially die fighting the generals or live decades more as a slave


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you are living in a fantasy world (3.00 / 2) (#53)
by insomnyuk on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 12:39:40 PM EST

I was asking who in the military would replace the generals - I'm saying the military institutionally is big enough and structured enough to eventually withstand the deaths of key leadership, there would be plenty of willing younger officers.

Of course, you suggested murdering your way to victory. Not only that, you completely misread my comment and suggested Ms. Suu Kyi replace the generals! I was talking about cutting the head off a many-headed hydra being pointless. Good luck murdering your way to victory.

Thank you for name-calling within the context of stating facts that I already knew. "The earth is round and revolves around the sun, you shitbag!" See how that works? Great.

Your utilitarian argument fails it. Like I said, with the way the gov't killed these monks and prevented them from being religiously buried, there will be a whole host of people with deep personal vendettas against the state. Give it a few years. This is in large part a religious fight too, as the monks are deeply in the pocket of the government, they receive funding and patronage from the state in exchange for religious services, and the religious leadership in the country did not openly support revolution, at most it was certain abbots at various monasteries offering tacit support and not preventing the young monks from demonstrating. They have paid the ultimate price.

Your hit and run style of throwing out a pointless fact combined with and insult to the commenter is simply a variation of the typical straw-man arguments that you make.

---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken
[ Parent ]

i'm living in a fantasy world? (1.33 / 3) (#54)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 12:56:12 PM EST

you are well aware of what the junta will do to keep power, and you think murdering the monks will propel the people to over come that? more like many more dead!

furthermore, you are 100% correct: murder the top generals, and no good will come of it: underlings will merely replace. however, this is still worth doing:

  1. out of pure principle. these assholes deserve death, not a rich cozy retirement. for no other reason is this compelled to murder them
  2. there is simply no other way possibly forward. yes, killing the generals may result in no change. every other choice before you WILL result in no change. 1% chance of getting rid of the assholes is better than 0%
  3. instability and constant bad news and exploding pipelines won't change the junta, but it will lead china and india to perhaps rethink their heavy handed support, and perhaps switch tables: no stable natural gas, nothing bad pr and dioplomatic nightmares on every newspaper headline. that means something. china and india against the generals? instant win
  4. you don't understand psychology. it's all about being a strong man, unopposed. brutality depends upon the big man, fear of him. if the big man is killed, or shown to not be so powerful or fearful, that moves hope in the street better than the junior monks standing up to them
  5. it also curdles the ranks of the lower generals. you are denying the possibility that the underlings aren't also sick of the bad old generals attitude as well, and might as well switch to Aung San Suu Kyi to win support to consolidate their power base in the military. the big bad old generals are well know. the young guys, not so much. a power vacuum results in a knife fight amongst the underlings to win control of the military. who wins? how about the shrewed guy who contacts Aung San Suu Kyi and says he will support her if she supports his consolidation of the military. even if he is thinking a short term back stab maneuver, it doesn't matter. burma is changed, burma is out from unde rthe evil old asshole generals, charting a new course. then the will of the people can find new expression

so you have it all figured out. except you don't


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Still wrong. (3.00 / 2) (#216)
by FreakWent on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:28:27 PM EST

  1. ignoring due process/courts is counter-productive in the long run, and killing killers leads to too many dead, it's recursive.

  2. False dichotomy.

  3. Blowing up pipelines didn't work in Iraq.  I think it more likely that China would move in and secure the pipelines even more brutally.

  4. ad Hominem, plus the big man in this case is the Junta, not just the top dude.

  5. This is a group that's been in the army all their life.  They believe that they can and should hold power, and all the evidence they've seen backs that up. Any given general would rather share power with his military colleagues than cede any to an outside party, let a lone a woman.

None of us have it all figured out; the reason you piss me off is because you're so convinced that you do.


[ Parent ]
i don't have anything figured out (none / 1) (#219)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:37:28 PM EST

but i have the slightest bit more intelligence than you to know that "due process" on the question of these burmese generals is laughably retarded of you


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Due process would work if (none / 1) (#245)
by FreakWent on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 08:19:02 PM EST

the whole world agreed with you, but they don't.

I would bet money that over 50% of the population of Earth don't know Burma exists, so you don't have the  mass support that you claim.

If you did, we wouldn't need your plan, they'd have already been snatched and tried and jailed.

[ Parent ]

well let's run with you for a moment (none / 1) (#272)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:20:23 PM EST

yes, let's say 50% of the world doesn't know burma exists. yes, 50% of the world has no opinion on the topic... EITHER WAY (for or against my crazy plan). so they don't count for me, or against me, really

additionally, anyone with the SLIGHTEST level of education and experience on what is going on in burma agrees with me. so apparently, all you have to prop up your stupidity is to say "well, 50% of the world is ignorant, so i'm going to side with them... and by me proving that there is a lot of ignorance in this world means you're wrong"

pfffffffft. you're such a loser

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

English, Circletimer, do you read it? (none / 1) (#329)
by FreakWent on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:15:38 PM EST

Let's try again.

YOU say that you ARE allowed to kill the generals because you have the backing of almost all the world.

I say no you don't, most of them don't know and don't care.

At this point normal people either explain why you think I'm wrong, or demand proof, or concede the point.

You conceded the point.

You now need to find some other moral justification for your murder plot, but somehow it all falls apart here and instead of supporting your plan prpoerly, you say that

 - anyone with education and experience agrees with your arbitrary murder plan, which takes us back to where we were, when I point out that the educated and experienced are LESS likely to support movie-plot fantasies like this

 - I'm siding with the ignorant, when is false because I'm clearly not on your side

 - Widespread ignorance proves that you don't have the claimed support, which is true, and that this means you're wrong, which you are, so I don't know why you repeat my argument so badly, I think I explained it pretty well the first time, so I'm glad that we agree that you're wrong.  Perhaps we've finally found some common ground!

 - random abuse (again.)


[ Parent ]

oh ok i see (none / 0) (#334)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 09:00:59 AM EST

every single trial by jury in the entire world is null and void in your view, because wha tthe jury has decided as a verdict has no judicial weight, because the entire world is not up to speed on why they have decided the way they have

every single person, from every cultural and national background, especially the burmese, think the burmese generals need to be punished for their massive crimes, going on decades

but not you

no, in the name of what, a human conscience? a moral authority? justice? empathy for the burmese?

exactly what do you think you speak in the name of from your low iq pov?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

So establishing a precedence can't work? (3.00 / 2) (#137)
by WonderJoust on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 04:43:02 PM EST

I agree that wholesale slaughter of those in charge won't stop things instantly. I think, with a large enough Burmese participation it may be possible to establish some form of government in a coup's wake, if a pipe dream, but that's ok. It's nice to indulge fantasy.

That being said, why is it improbable that this would stand as a deterrent for future abuses of this nature? The reason people like this are able to continue doing what they're doing is thew absence of anyone to stand up and say anything else, no one that is both able and willing to strike at those who defy their people. Through a combination of removedness, greed and apathy, the world stands back and shakes its collective head, shrugs and turns a blind eye.

If you show these big-wigs that millions or tens of millions (remember, we're living the pipe dream) are not only willing, but able to say "No more" and enforce it... you may actually see a government finally working for the betterment of people. What other choice would they have?

Work with us or be struck down by us.

I wish that was the world we lived in now. I'm tired of hiding my weed. C'est la vie.

_________________________________
i like your style: bitter, without being a complete cunt about it.
-birds ate my face
[ Parent ]

Your American Dream: Shoot all extremists. (2.00 / 3) (#55)
by boomi on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 01:08:06 PM EST

Burma is in a state of clan war. If you threaten one clan, it will use any and all available methods to minimize that threat. If you decapitate one clan, its fractions form new clans, likely leading to all-out civil war.

Another plan of action:

  • Confront all involved parties with the atrocities they support
  • Negotiate exile and sensible replacements for the clan leaders
  • Repeat

What can you do in this scenario?
  • Support intelligence gathering (for example by dropping tons of cameras and searching ways to export the media)
  • Stop bitching about the UN, force your politicians to fix it.

Sadly, it seems that the situation has to get worse before it can get better. I agree with you there.

you're so predictable (1.00 / 2) (#57)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 02:40:16 PM EST

quote, from above:

"This idea of an Internet death squad pointed at the Burmese Generals is obviously motivated by universal human moral outrage. But some will kneejerk the Western imperialism charge anyways. It's typical and inevitable and braindead. So the idea is to short circuit the closed minded fools whose brains are stuck in 1907 upfront: membership in this Internet society to kill the Burmese Generals and bomb their pipelines must be tempered to deny many potential Western members."

i look forward to your next kneejerk retarded charge of americanism, when the pov i am speaking from is universal, and especially burmese

thank you, braindead moron, for proving my point

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Obvious problem (3.00 / 3) (#58)
by boomi on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 03:40:32 PM EST

Of course what I said was predictable, I wasn't even the first to point it out. Of course you were bright enough to anticipate people saying it. Do you know why it was predictable that someone would say it and why you anticipated it? Because it's an obvious flaw in that little scheme of yours.

It seems you're prepared to take responsibility for another civil war. Better contact the Chinese now to have some military force ready to provide stability, in case your scheme succeeds and doesn't just lead to more crackdowns on monks. Because you know, the UN is useless in such cases.

Fortunately for the world your mouth saps all your energy. We can ridicule you on K5 instead of reading about a lunatic assassin captured at a Chinese border.

[ Parent ]

so let me get this straight (none / 1) (#59)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 03:56:19 PM EST

stability under the burmese generals, such as they are, is superior to you than the chaos that would result from removing them, even if it led to something better? (an dmost ANYTHING would be)

congratulations. if you ever wanted to know about the mentality that led to something like tiananmen square, 1989, it's in your head and your way of thinking

you're an authoritarian asshole


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

ok, let's get this straight (3.00 / 2) (#68)
by boomi on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 05:37:32 PM EST

I, the authoritarian asshole, propose that there's an option where generals can be forced to give up their position so that moderate forces could lead the country to a sane civil government.

You, the flower child, propose there's an option of removing generals by assassination so that the ensuing chaos could lead to a sane civil government.

Both options are mere speculation. Both can not rule out further violence; your option requires it, mine does not. Is this a fair description?

[ Parent ]

that's fucking stupid (1.66 / 3) (#69)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 05:51:32 PM EST

let me put it to you this way: freedom is chaotic. and i am certain the burmese would welcome that chaos and instability if it meant they could escape the certainty of decades more under the burmese generals

which would you prefer to be: a certain, safe slave? or a free man in a dangerous world?

do you believe they will give up power peacefully? not hand it over to equally repugnant successors?

you are willing to bet decades of failed uprising after failed uprising, with thousands dead, rather than to try to kill the motherfuckers because of CHAOS?!

you PREFER the safety of slavery over the uncertainty of freedom

you ARE a slave in your mentality

luckily, your mentality leads to inaction

so it is easy to ignore and root around useless assholes like yourself

read the mill quote at the bottom of the article: it applies to you, you slave


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

In your dreams (3.00 / 4) (#91)
by boomi on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:39:06 PM EST

You, gun in hand,
will show the Burmese how it's done.

Monks, slavish idiots,
you will free them.

The Burmese, you speak for them,
you know what's best for them.

You, our pet Robespierre.

[ Parent ]

yes (none / 1) (#93)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:44:55 PM EST

where, in the story above, i say that the charge of western imperialism will be levelled at that which is essentially a product of universal human abhorrence, is predictable response of those with brittle minds stuck in 1907

that's you, moron

so thank you for proving that people like you are so predictable

dude, the burmese are for this idea, have been for decades. i'm not leading, i'm following. i'm a foreign sympathiser. you know, lawrence of arabia? kosciusko in the us revolution? lord byron in greece? mujahedin in afghanistan, chechnya?

want a couple thousand examples from history?

you're a fucking moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Foreign sympathizers and their priorities (3.00 / 2) (#107)
by boomi on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 08:59:11 PM EST

You'll get my support if you propose actions that improve the political climate in Burma.

To make this plain to you: The killing of particular assholes is usually a side effect, not a prerequisite, of change. There's an infinite supply of assholes, if you focus on them, you see them everywhere.

Get your priorities straight.

[ Parent ]

are you for real? (none / 1) (#164)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:43:32 PM EST

you think the political climate in burma can be improved with the generals still around?

how clueless are you about how the real world works?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Quick tip for spotting clan wars: (2.33 / 3) (#113)
by Scrymarch on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 12:33:06 AM EST

Both sides have guns. This is not the case in Burma.

[ Parent ]
Force our politicians? (3.00 / 2) (#138)
by WonderJoust on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 04:59:43 PM EST

Is that a joke? We can't even bring the US president to be subjected to dissent, much less force him to reason with it. The fatal flaw is using the current system to fix the problem. The current system created and is continuing the problem. So we need a new system to do something about/with the old one.

I'm not full-blown advocating cts's idea, that it would work or what have you, but the thought that any form of unified world-wide action can be called for from our self-serving, irresponsible respective governments is, I think, assinine.

WE THE FUCKING PEOPLE, BABY!

_________________________________
i like your style: bitter, without being a complete cunt about it.
-birds ate my face
[ Parent ]

The Bible says (2.00 / 3) (#61)
by United Fools on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 04:02:09 PM EST

you shall not kill

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
united fools (none / 0) (#65)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 04:31:34 PM EST

says a lot of little pithy pointless things

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
it says not murder actually (none / 0) (#97)
by boxed on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 08:01:28 PM EST

There's a HUGE difference. A difference which is rather plainly described in the >10:th commandments where the different God mandated killings is proclaimed.

[ Parent ]
God did not say kill the Burmese Generals! (none / 0) (#119)
by United Fools on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:07:58 AM EST


We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
[ Parent ]
actually yes he did (none / 1) (#144)
by boxed on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 07:17:30 PM EST

See, they are godless heathens.. but of course so are the monks, so overall one might say the generals are doing Gods work, even if they are on the list themselves.

[ Parent ]
So you are saying all the Burmese should die, (none / 0) (#169)
by United Fools on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 01:29:04 AM EST

except the 5 percent who believes in Allah (i.e., the Muslims) in Burma. What to do about them?

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
[ Parent ]
The Buddha says (2.50 / 2) (#62)
by United Fools on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 04:03:55 PM EST

"Learn to let go. That is the key to happiness."

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
the buddha would be shot in the back of the head (none / 1) (#64)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 04:31:10 PM EST

by these burmese generals

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
AND FOR GOOD REASON (none / 1) (#128)
by LilDebbie on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 03:42:50 PM EST

fucking buddha

oh hey look we can use tor again!

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]

no idiot (3.00 / 2) (#99)
by boxed on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 08:03:38 PM EST

The buddha says to let go OF ATTACHMENT. Which is what that famous monk did who set himself on fire and didn't flinch while his flesh burnt. Siddhartha said to first clearly accept and see the world as it is, then ACT. The other way around and you will just make the problem worse by ignorance, and if you ignore step two the insight is worthless.

[ Parent ]
Said Qutb would take your philosophy to its next (2.75 / 4) (#66)
by insomnyuk on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 05:05:51 PM EST

logical conclusion, which would be that not only do the Burmese generals deserve to die, but so does everyone else in the army.

Furthermore, all citizens not actively opposing the junta deserve to die, because they are not truly free persons, they have lost their identities in service of this regime.

Next, you can conclude that all of Burma's government supporters deserve to die as well, for enabling the corrupt junta. I'll let you make a mental list of all the heads of state you would need to go after.

Good luck with your programme - it is destined for failure at this early stage in human evolution.

---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken

and Said Qutb is wrong (1.00 / 2) (#67)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 05:25:01 PM EST

to extend past the top level of generals, so what exactly is your point?

when i say only top level guys, above, that's what i meant

there's no slippery slope friend


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

woops, I detect a slippery slope (3.00 / 2) (#118)
by Ezra Loomis Pound on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 10:18:41 AM EST

and you forgot to add the clause, "all those not opposed to the people who do not oppose the regime are also supporting the regime, and thus deserve to die." You failed logic 101, didn't you?

:::"Let me tell ya, if she wasn't cut out to handle some fake boy online, well sister, life only gets more difficult, and you only get more emo as you age." --balsamic vinigga :::#_#:::
[ Parent ]
never bothered to take logic 101, and thank you (2.50 / 2) (#120)
by insomnyuk on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 12:05:11 PM EST

for continuing my argument, I was getting bored. I'm just saying, once you let the genie out of the bottle you can't control where it goes. Or something like that.

---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken
[ Parent ]
once you let the genie out of the bottle? (none / 1) (#163)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:40:29 PM EST

anti-syrian lebanese car bombed

ex pat russians poisoned with polonium

ukranian politicans poisoned with dioxin

and this is off the top of my head in just the last few years

what genie moron do you think is being let out of the bottle that wasn't let out of the bottle 3,000 years ago?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

internet [nt] (none / 1) (#171)
by insomnyuk on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 03:29:53 AM EST



---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken
[ Parent ]
hey moron (none / 1) (#180)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 02:21:20 PM EST

so you were complaining about the internet? that's what you want to stop? (snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
ok then cts (2.00 / 5) (#70)
by balsamic vinigga on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 06:44:01 PM EST

make the first move. start the fund.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
what the hell do you think i'm doing? (none / 0) (#72)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 06:55:09 PM EST

obviously i can't just open a paypal account... any ideas?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
swiss bank acct + wire transfer (1.50 / 2) (#74)
by balsamic vinigga on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 06:57:39 PM EST

is your friend

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
[ Parent ]
how do i set that up online (none / 0) (#76)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:00:06 PM EST

to solicit funds?

i don't think this is easy, but there has to be a way

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

well, it is complicated, yes (1.50 / 2) (#78)
by balsamic vinigga on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:07:59 PM EST

the way the swiss bank accounts work is that there's privacy between you and the banker until there's a criminal investigation. So you'd need to find a swiss banker that's willing to go to jail for the cause.

As for wire trasfer, sure it's not as easy as putting a pay pal button up, but almost is.

But you might want to look into setting up a confusing network of WebMoney accounts.  WebMoney has been known to be friendly to criminal activity in the past. It's a russian organization i think.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
[ Parent ]

webmoney huh? (none / 1) (#82)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:21:51 PM EST

dunno about getting in the financial sack with shady russians though. i think that would move me 100x close to death than publicly proposing the assassination of murderous generals


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
look into it (1.50 / 2) (#83)
by balsamic vinigga on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:24:44 PM EST

I think webmoney is more credible than it is shady. You can't be a popular choice for psuedo-money without credibility. Even among ruskies.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
[ Parent ]
good point (none / 1) (#86)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:31:01 PM EST

but i don't think the ruskies are served geopolitically by siding against the burmese. what fbi g men would or could do is equalled and surpassed what kremlin men would and could do, so i dunno

i'm looking at the UN building right now as i type this, and have seen a lot of angry burmese demonstrators around here lately. i'll hook up with some burmese here in new york who are obviously quite incensed right now

they're probably about 10 steps ahead of me on all of these questions


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I agree! (none / 1) (#217)
by FreakWent on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:34:34 PM EST

They're probably about 10 steps ahead of you on every question.

[ Parent ]
i was totally serious... (none / 1) (#243)
by mikelist on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 08:15:28 PM EST

...when i prescribed talking to and getting to know members of the burmese army and/or their friends and families (i'll bet most of those protesters have someone they know, perhaps family who went for a military career). i think this (contract hit, so to speak)is an idea whose time will never come, yet i understand the frustration in watching something so wrong without doing something, anything to try to stop it.

 like i said about the un, better to have the inefficient (meaning unlikely to succeed, for various reasons) try to do what they can, rather than no one at all.

 so i suggest that by talking to as many burmese (most likely not burmese soldiers though, across the street) as you can, you may find out things valuable to your pursuit.

i think you are one eighty out, but on the off-chance something good comes of it, good luck.

i'm out of this discussion.  

[ Parent ]

Fuck Switzerland (none / 1) (#129)
by LilDebbie on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 03:48:24 PM EST

Cayman Islands banks refuses to cooperate with authorities as a matter of course. Hell, I know a guy with an account (and one here, oddly enough. Coincidence?!?!).

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
another PROTIP (none / 1) (#132)
by LilDebbie on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 04:04:55 PM EST

start hoarding proxies.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
I hear (none / 1) (#233)
by Sgt York on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 03:02:27 PM EST

there's this group in Kinakuta that's starting up something along these lines.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

-1, already asked and answered (1.75 / 4) (#75)
by Blond Treehorn Thug on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 06:59:35 PM EST

This is a stupid proposal even for your standards, and that's saying something.

I am amused by the simplicity of this game. Bring me your finest meats and cheeses.
how is it stupid? (1.00 / 2) (#77)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:00:53 PM EST

qualify your judgment, or shut the fuck up

it's not stupid at all


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I am sure I am wasting my time even responding (3.00 / 2) (#79)
by Blond Treehorn Thug on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:13:07 PM EST

so I'll keep it short:

1] won't work
2] bad precedent
3] they'll kill you back
4] if anyone on this green earth was even taking your cute little plan seriously, the fbi would land on you like a ton of bricks.

I am amused by the simplicity of this game. Bring me your finest meats and cheeses.
[ Parent ]

you're an idiot (none / 0) (#80)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:19:37 PM EST

  1. 1% chance of change is better than 0%
  2. bad precedent huh? yeah, like polonium 210 for expat russians, dioxin for ukranian politicians, car bombs for anti-syrian lebanese lawmakers, etc.
  3. yes, they'll kill us back. and? we're all going to die son. better to die for a good cause then rot as some spineless old man
  4. why would the fbi care? we're not talking about killing gwb you moron. we're talking about killing vile foreign heads of state. you know, what the usa did to saddam? shit, the fbi/ cia/ nsa probably already has their own plan in place to kill the bastard burmese generals


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
LOL (none / 1) (#85)
by Blond Treehorn Thug on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:29:33 PM EST

Look, the absolute best thing that can happen to you when you come up with some extraordinarily stupid plan like this is that noone takes you seriously.

Which, fortunately for you, is precisely what will happen here

I am amused by the simplicity of this game. Bring me your finest meats and cheeses.
[ Parent ]

moron (none / 0) (#90)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:37:37 PM EST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philhellenism

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2004/11/14/chehnya041114.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosciusko

want a couple thousand more examples?

why do you think foreign sympathizers to a cause don't matter, in any conflict, in any part of ther world, throughout history?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I TOO HAVE POSTED UNRELATED LINKS FROM WIKIPEDIA (none / 0) (#98)
by Blond Treehorn Thug on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 08:02:30 PM EST

IN A THREAD

I am amused by the simplicity of this game. Bring me your finest meats and cheeses.
[ Parent ]
everything you said is correct (none / 0) (#101)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 08:06:54 PM EST

except the word "unrelated"

it's related moron

here's another

ready to cry uncle yet you retard?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I fear I have started a battle of wits (none / 1) (#104)
by Blond Treehorn Thug on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 08:10:07 PM EST

with an unarmed man

I am amused by the simplicity of this game. Bring me your finest meats and cheeses.
[ Parent ]
said the little food (none / 1) (#105)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 08:11:10 PM EST

to the big troll, who was about to eat him for a snack


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Tell me, internet tough guy, (none / 1) (#108)
by Blond Treehorn Thug on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 09:18:11 PM EST

if this is such a good idea, why aren't you going out and doing it, instead of banging about it on some website?

I am amused by the simplicity of this game. Bring me your finest meats and cheeses.
[ Parent ]
do you know who i am? (none / 1) (#161)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:36:06 PM EST

or what i am doing right now?

asking for proof of conviction in the words i have stated is a statement of rhetorical bankruptcy on your part

because you don't know who i am or what i am doing, and you think you are in a position to deserve that i prove my convictions right now (if that were possible even)

if you actually believed what i was doing was wrong, you would articulate that

you can't do that

so instead of attacking my words, you attack my conviction

what does that mean? if i actually do what i say you will support me? pfffffffffft


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

okay duke of times square... (none / 1) (#237)
by mikelist on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 06:31:16 PM EST

you go ahead and take your commissioned troops along with field pieces and horses to myanmar. other than being a foreign sympathizer/supporter you have very little in common with kosciusko, perhaps a little more with lord byron, and the circumstances under which they supported military operations are very different from those currently in myanmar.

there is nothing good about the current regime, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to see a couple of death notices from among that crowd, but if there is absolutely nobody in myanmar with the sand (and ability) to do that job (not public protesters, since the junta has shown its disdain for public opinion), maybe you should think twice about being a unilateral savior.

[ Parent ]

huh? (none / 1) (#271)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:14:10 PM EST

"it's hard to fight the bad guys so don't"

that's about all i got out of that

pffft. you just convince me that the world is full of losers. you're simply flavor 567 of 999 flavors of loser

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

classic CTS (2.50 / 2) (#89)
by mybostinks on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 07:32:31 PM EST

and one of my favorites of his. I am not worthy.

Amazing...


-1, someone hasn't been reading their Stalin... (2.66 / 3) (#109)
by codejack on Fri Oct 05, 2007 at 09:22:52 PM EST

"Bureaucracy is the price we pay for impartiality."


Please read before posting.

+1 FP (1.66 / 3) (#112)
by Troll Hard on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 12:27:20 AM EST

I consider this charity, even if you have been mean to me.

I am half-Thai so I know what Burma is going through as I have roots and family in that part of the world.

Plus the Thai people taught the Burmese Monks Muay Thai, when Burma kidnapped some Thai farmers and tried to make them slaves and the Thai farmers used Muay Thai in fighting tournaments to win their freedom, and then taught the Monks how to fight.

Burmese Monks can knock you the fuck out with just an elbow or a knee, true fact.

--------
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! Mind over Matter Fringe Science for the win!

hey did you see dynamite warrior? (3.00 / 3) (#115)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 08:08:34 AM EST

http://www.subwaycinema.com/frames/nyaff07_dynamite.htm

i saw it in june

funniest shit i've seen in years

way over the top in a gloriously lunatic way


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I might see it later (1.50 / 2) (#131)
by Troll Hard on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 03:53:38 PM EST

if I can order it on VideoCD from the DOTV Thai movie services.

Did you ever see The Overture? It talks about Thai culture and how they rejected westernism.

--------
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it! Mind over Matter Fringe Science for the win!
[ Parent ]

IHBT (none / 1) (#240)
by tetsuwan on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 07:09:17 PM EST

ok action, terrible screenplay

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

c'mon! period blood! riding giant firecrackers! (2.00 / 2) (#270)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:12:05 PM EST

dorks who turn into white faced lion and monkey!

cleft palate bad guy!

a world domination plot founded on farm machinery!

an angry giant cannibal!

what's not to love!!!!!!???????


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

That all these fantastic things fell pretty flat (none / 0) (#279)
by tetsuwan on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:50:55 PM EST

the lion and donkey had their moments, though.

And the small conversation about menstruation blood btw the hero and the heroine was an unexpected turn

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

what about the angry giant cannibal? (none / 1) (#280)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:53:15 PM EST

i loved that guy

the evil wizard was pretty typical though

and the creation myth "realizes at right moment at end that evil wizard guy killed his parents" was typical too

but so what? the rest was pure novelty

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

When we said Second Superpower we meant it (2.60 / 5) (#114)
by Scrymarch on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 12:49:21 AM EST

I admire your philosophical consistency here cts, this vision of steely eyed bloggers ducking away from the keyboard to plant a quick IED before bedtime does have a romantic appeal. I also like the idea of a liberal flipside of modern asymmetric tactics ... Nationalist movements always had international elements, though their record of success is not fantastic. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, Than Shwe, but it's probably for one of the indiscreet cut-price assassins we found on eBay.

While you're at it you could start a paypal account for obtaining a nuclear warhead, to be used only through the supra-majoritarian vote by contributers, conducted online and with the provision of a credit card details to confirm identity.

I'm skeptical however. Even if you have some contacts on the ground and simply knew well enough not to flaunt it publicly I doubt you could run a semi-public subscription scheme like this today while states like the US spend so much effort attacking terrorism: this isn't Sun Yat-sen and the Chinese diaspora. There is no base of operations where you can safely organise and be plugged into both your local contacts and donor contacts.

Besides, though Than Shwe is clearly a prick I think recent Burmese history shows the particular general in charge is fairly irrelevant to the way the country is misgoverned. They all follow the same template because they are merely the nominal head of a repressive military institution. So I think contributing to an assassination fund would be pointless as well as increasing the likelihood of myself being woken by curt men in the middle of the night.

i live in midtown manhattan (2.00 / 2) (#160)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:33:39 PM EST

you should see the number of pissed off burmese i've seen around the un lately


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
We know you're a Neocon, CTS (1.25 / 4) (#121)
by Social Democrat on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 01:21:11 PM EST

Why do you feel the need to continue to post more stories proving that you are a Neocon?

------
The US is fucked up, diseased, mentally unstable & psychologically unhealthy. Its food supply is tainted, polluted, & full of chemical crap. Even worse, the US is trying to ruin the rest of the world.
a enocon operates in nationalistic interest (none / 1) (#159)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:32:13 PM EST

so i'm not a neocon

you understand that right?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

well by that definition (none / 1) (#184)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 02:24:46 PM EST

neocon sounds like a mighty fine thing to be. if that's how you define neocon, you must love neocons. what could be wrong with neocon as defined as a globalist?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
+1FP (2.00 / 5) (#122)
by undermyne on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 01:25:00 PM EST

Because you made Social Democrat's vagina hurt.


"SEALED MASTICATION MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT? " thekubrix
Slippery slope argument follows. (2.00 / 3) (#123)
by sudogeek on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 02:12:14 PM EST

I agree that the Burmese junta deserves to be removed from power and that, sometimes, force is needed to change conditions or government in order to improve the lot of the citizenry. The American revolution is an example.

However, you can't be sure that a violent act will necessarily result in more "freedom" or "liberty" no matter the intent, as was shown in the French and Russian revolutions as well as in Iraq. So, there is risk in change. Violence begets violence as even if the motives are pure, the moral authority of the killers are tainted.

If the generals are removed, is there an opposition which can govern - I mean ability. If the junta is supported by the army, how does decapitation change the attitudes of the entire army? Who opposes the army maintaining power when they are the only ones with guns? How does that provides a route to some better government?

I think the only example that provides any hope for Myanmar is the Cambodian one. China or India plays the role of Vietnam in overthrowing the Khmer Rouge.

As to your assassination clearinghouse, I've thought about the the same idea for more mundane "enforcement" actions. But, you know, they wil be coming for you next. Who's to say that the next assassination anonymously solicited and funded isn't a US President, oil company CEO, accused polluter, alleged child molester, and so on, until your name comes up to the top of the list.

Do I hear $50.00?

You're an arrogant, condescending, ignorant dipshit. - trhurler

Methinks his argument here (2.00 / 2) (#127)
by LilDebbie on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 03:38:02 PM EST

is that the generals don't have the ability to govern by virtue of the sorry state of Burma. That is to say, there are varying degrees of military juntas, and we put up with regimes like Musharraf's because he does a halfway decent job of running the country. The Myanmar junta doesn't even do a decent job of governing and are only acting as parasites on the body politic and therefore must be removed.

I am intrigued by your assassination clearinghouse idea and would like to subscribe to any newsletters it may have.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]

Not to be an apologist to the junta, (none / 1) (#148)
by sudogeek on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 09:13:36 PM EST

but the generals are doing a better job than many other governments where inability to govern is manifest. I'd probably put them on a par with Pakistan. Consider North Korea where annual famines occur, many West African nations similarly, and the failed states like Guatemala, Congo, Somalia, and so on. Iraq and Afghanistan merit inclusion in this list - perhaps a truer reflection of the abilities of the current US government.

As an aside, all governments are parasites to some degree. Even if they begin with the consent of the governed, inertia, passivity, the attraction of a certain type to positions of power, and the intrinsic villainy of people all conspire that government becomes an oppressor, to a greater or lesser degree.

As James Madison said, "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

You're an arrogant, condescending, ignorant dipshit. - trhurler
[ Parent ]

are you fucking serious? (none / 1) (#186)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 02:26:15 PM EST

burma is a hole. probably worse off than before the generals came around. you're not a very good liar asswipe


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
the burmese generals (none / 1) (#158)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:31:39 PM EST

are in a special circle of long time going, way over the top evil

very few in this world compare

there is no slippery slope


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You're truly disgusting (1.33 / 9) (#124)
by jxg on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 02:53:06 PM EST

and I hope that following your well-deserved arrest a cop rapes you with a toilet plunger.

Why would he be arrested? $ (none / 1) (#142)
by Scott Robinson on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 06:48:34 PM EST



[ Parent ]
first time I've had to zero you on principle. n (2.66 / 3) (#150)
by livus on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 10:19:01 PM EST

 

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
why is this disgusting? (none / 0) (#157)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:30:38 PM EST

what is wrong with you?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Because it's the usual liberalist arrogance (none / 1) (#191)
by jxg on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 06:13:21 PM EST

except even more so; and at the same time less, coming as it is from a pale little shadow of someone who actually had the courage of his foolish convictions.

To summarize, INTERNET SERIOUS BUSINESS.

[ Parent ]

what's arrogant about it? nt (none / 0) (#197)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:18:26 PM EST

it's arrogant to seek justice in this world?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Yes, exactly. nt (none / 1) (#253)
by jxg on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 01:46:15 PM EST



[ Parent ]
"t's arrogant to seek justice" (none / 0) (#256)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 03:14:05 PM EST

i learned it on teh intarweb from a deaf mute modbomber on a half dead troll site

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
LOL (none / 1) (#190)
by undermyne on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 04:01:11 PM EST

with one single post you have completely changed my opinion of you.


"SEALED MASTICATION MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT? " thekubrix
[ Parent ]
Hmm (2.20 / 5) (#125)
by trhurler on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 03:09:11 PM EST

First of all, the people saying you're somehow "wrong" in a moral sense are idiots. Morally, these guys earned their own demise a long time ago. It would be wrong to, say, torture them, but not to kill them.

That notwithstanding, are you a retard? You may think you have "freedom of speech" in a practical sense, and you SHOULD HAVE IT, but you do not. You could be tried under various conspiracy laws, laws prohibiting terrorist planning, RICO if this ever took off, and so on, and no court is going to save your ass. It'd be nice if it weren't so, but be serious.

The risk might be worth it if there was a reason. But there isn't. You neither can nor will carry the weight of the whole world on your shoulders. The truth is, these guys are just the tyrants in the news - there are tyrants the world over, and you aren't suggesting organizing to kill them.

You have nothing to gain and everything to lose, and of course nobody on k5 is actually going to organize and/or carry out the killings of some junta leaders halfway around the world anyway. Get a grip.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

Living in fear != Living /in tea (none / 1) (#139)
by WonderJoust on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 05:08:11 PM EST


_________________________________
i like your style: bitter, without being a complete cunt about it.
-birds ate my face
[ Parent ]

Which is relevant because? $ (none / 0) (#145)
by trhurler on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 08:29:22 PM EST



--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
zomg I can't say something! (none / 0) (#146)
by WonderJoust on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 08:47:26 PM EST

The thought police will get me!

You've been reading too much conspiracy theory.

_________________________________
i like your style: bitter, without being a complete cunt about it.
-birds ate my face
[ Parent ]

Nah, he's just a spineless pussy (2.66 / 3) (#165)
by Josh Smith II on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:54:35 PM EST

The fucker's afraid of travelling outside of the US even because of DHS. He's what's wrong with the US at the moment. All he does is throw out piss scared rhetoric on the internet, whining and ranting and raving about how bad and stupid it is to take a stand for something you believe.

Fuck you and your pussy-ass mentality trhurler. You're a disgraced to the proud and noble history that your country bares. Our Founding Fathers had to endure a lot of things to establish this great nation and here you are pussy assing about because you're scared of DHS, an agency that's supposed to serve YOU.

You're exactly what's wrong with this country. Shut the fuck up and let the real men speak.

-- Josh Smith recommends you take a hulver hike.
[ Parent ]

so you have no principles then nt (none / 1) (#166)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 12:13:50 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Is it bad (2.50 / 2) (#126)
by LilDebbie on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 03:24:37 PM EST

if I seriously believe that, given a moderate bankroll (let's say $100k for an out-of-ass estimate), I could effect plans to take out the pipelines myself? Thinking about it, I know where to develop the contacts to get the necessary weaponry and get it and myself smuggled into the country. On top of that, I can't imagine the pipelines are all that well guarded.

Taking out the generals, not so much, but that's really a secondary concern. Disrupt the spice gas flow and the generals will fall on their own.

Also, +1FP for cts getting a visit from the FBI.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

why would the fbi visit me? (none / 1) (#156)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:29:12 PM EST

what is wrong with you? why would they care?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
you're not only adovocating (none / 1) (#167)
by LilDebbie on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 12:33:04 AM EST

the assassination of foreign heads of state, but you are outlining ways to do it. that second bit is really where the line is crossed.

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
no (none / 1) (#168)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 01:17:17 AM EST

the line is crossed when i threaten gw b's life

which i'm not doing

or say i threaten sarkozy's life

which i'm not doing

then the french notice, and ask the fbi to bother me

then the fbi gets involved, at the behest of a friend of the usa govt

what, the burmese generals are going to complain to the usa?

and, if they did, the fbi would help them bother me?

what's your problem moron?

at very worst, if the burmese actually think i'm a threat, they will assassinate me

not the fbi moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Assassination Politics (2.66 / 3) (#141)
by dark on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 06:34:49 PM EST

This article is not complete without a link to Assassination Politics by Jim Bell. It's one of the great ideas of the 20th century, but so far nobody's implemented it yet. I keep waiting for an enterprising "web-app" entrepreneur to show some initiative in this area, but alas. Maybe I'll have to do it myself.

Now that this article is in the front page, (2.80 / 5) (#149)
by United Fools on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 09:26:10 PM EST

will K5 be on the list of terrorist organizations maintained by the US Government?

We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
i dont know why people keep saying this here (none / 1) (#155)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:27:39 PM EST

the fbi is not going to go after me fools

i'm not supposing we kill gw bush, i'm supposing we kill than shwe

do you see a slight difference?

pfffffffffft


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Specifics aside for a moment (2.50 / 6) (#152)
by livus on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 10:51:07 PM EST

above the fold, what you seem to be describing is Kiva.

Leaving aside questions like Burmese, murder and mercenaries for a moment - the crux of what you are advocating is that those with capital should use some of it to create social justice for those without.

Do you see this working on a global scale, or just in isolated, "feel-good" cases like buying a goat on kivo, sponsoring a child, or this Burma thing?

If you don't want it applied globally then why Burma, why not put the money into something more cost-effective like the Ghana floods?

If you do want it applied globally then do you not see a problem with the overall distribution of capital? Isn't the whole reason you have capital to spend on this project to do with outsourcing and globalisation and the division of labour?

Do you really think the people who benefit from inequality (e.g kurons) are really interested in destabilising that, and are you even asking them to do so? If not, could you explain?

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

s/outsourcing/ sourcing of raw materials (none / 0) (#153)
by livus on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 10:57:08 PM EST

wtf.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
less kiva, more shiva (2.00 / 2) (#154)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 06, 2007 at 11:24:02 PM EST

the destroyer

i don't know why you are babbling about distributing capital

i am interested in distributing a few bullets... into the heads of evil burmese generals


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

no, you're talking about paying someone else (none / 1) (#172)
by livus on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 06:57:12 AM EST

to distribute bullets.

 

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

i don't understand your criticism (2.00 / 2) (#183)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 02:23:47 PM EST

you're not criticizing the idea, but the organizational details?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Not quite - (none / 0) (#192)
by livus on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 06:27:20 PM EST

I'm asking you whether you think this is a once only thing or whether you think the principle can be applied more generally.

Above the fold, you make it sound like the idea is an example of a wider principle, and I'm finding it hard to see how you think it's sustainable.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

of course it can be applied more generallynt (2.50 / 2) (#199)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:19:41 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
well if you re-read my comment (2.50 / 2) (#202)
by livus on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:22:26 PM EST

with this in mind, does it make sense now? My argument is that no one would apply it more generally.

Basically what you are saying is that westerners should use their capital to provide social justice in other countries.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

people like you make my blood boil (2.00 / 2) (#205)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:29:24 PM EST

the first fucking paragraph: i say fuck nationalism, take it from a gloal persepctive

in the middle of the fucking article, i say it's not about thwe west, but watch the braindead morons come here babling about the west anyways

AND HERE YOU ARE, RIGHT ON SCHEDULE

sample of our discussion:

me: "fuck the west, from a global perspective..."
typical braindead you: "anyway, so about the west"

NO MORONS

FUCK THE FUCKING WEST

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE FUCKING WEST

CAN YOU GET THAT INTO YOUR IGNORANT FUCKING SKULLS

I SWEAR TO GOD

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE WEST

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE FUCKING WEST

SHUT

THE

FUCK

UP

YOU

BLIND

MOTHERFUCKING

ASSHOLES

can you POSSIBLY talk about the problems in the world and SHUT the FUCK up about the west?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

It's YOU who isn't using a global perspective. (none / 1) (#207)
by livus on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:49:46 PM EST

How many asassinations can K5 afford.

If most of our posters came from, say, Mali and Laos then could we afford the same number of assassinations?

No we couldn't.

It is because you are rich that you can contemplate doing this.

If wealth and resources were evenly distributed would Burma be having this problem?

No.

If you think the West has nothing to do with the world's problems then your opinion on them holds no weight with me.

The West Is Part of the World
 

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

yes, moron (1.50 / 2) (#208)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:56:40 PM EST

it is part of the world

i'm glad this marvelous realization finally strikes you

therefore, we can talk about this from a global perspective

...which is what i have been doing from square one

it gets very tedious waiting for people to catch up where i have been 5000 posts ago in the conversation

wake the fuck up

pay some fucking attention asshole


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

so answer my question and stop evading it (2.50 / 2) (#236)
by livus on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 04:53:35 PM EST

all your "assholes" don't fool me.

You know my objection makes sense. You know my question was from a global perspecive.

You know damn well I'm not talking about "imperialism" or "the ethics of murder" or "the fbi" or anything like that, but you reacted as if I was.

You're just stalling.

For what it's worth, I think you and I differ in some of our basic assumptions about the global:
Here's your approach.
Here's my approach.


---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

why is that supposed to mean anything to me? (2.00 / 2) (#269)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:09:53 PM EST

what, in your own words, should or should not the world do about the burmese generals?

say something concrete, so i can stand with you opr against you. don't link to nebulous articles that mean so many esoteric things it really means nothing

you say i'm avoiding you. i'd actually prefer to embrace that charge then where things really stand, which is: i am saying concrete things, and you are speaking in shadow and dust and nebulous nonsense

be concrete asshole, or shut up


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

It's not that simple. (none / 1) (#296)
by livus on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 05:31:09 PM EST

You imply that there is "the world" and there are "Burmese generals" and that they are two separate things. They're not - the Burma situation is part of the world.

You say you want social justice and then you propose something which boils down to capitalist fascism.

The person with the most money gets to say what happens.

Fascism attracts people like you because it seems simple, but it will never create social justice.

I put it to you that the principle you espouse here - that the highest bidder gets to assassinate people - is how the US has been operating for years, and it is part of the problem not part of the solution.

 

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

capitalist fascism?! (1.50 / 2) (#298)
by circletimessquare on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 06:47:16 PM EST

what the FUCK does that have to do with what i am saying in ANY way whatsover!!!!!!!!!!

"the highest bidder gets to assassinate people"

what?!

COULD YOU FUCKING PAY THE FUCK ATTENTION ASSWIPE???

what the FUCK does that have to do with what i said

what the FUCK does that have to with "capitalist fascism"

could fucking post not drunk and stoned you shitstain?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I don't know if you're pretending or for real now (none / 1) (#302)
by livus on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 11:41:52 PM EST

either you really don't see my point or else you're just enjoying putting "fuck" in caps and calling me names. That's okay, I'm enjoying it too.

I'm not going to repeat myself CTS, either you understand me or you don't.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

i understand you perfectly well (none / 1) (#304)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:45:13 AM EST

i get your point

i just don't see how it has one fucking thing to do with anything i am talking about

could you please exaplin, for example, what the FUCK "capitalist fascism" has to do with ANYTHING here in the LEAST

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

nope (none / 1) (#332)
by livus on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 12:55:49 AM EST

if you really don't see what it has to do with your proposition then there's nothing in it for me.

Basically I can't see why you don't see what it has to do with it.

You're talking about using money on the internets to pay for the use of force to get your own way, yet you can't imagine why I brought up capitalism or fascism?

You've said before that you come here to let of steam, and that's fine. Actually I quite enjoy it when you call me names.

But a livus does not live by bread and insults alone, CTS.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

here is my difficulty: (none / 1) (#335)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 10:04:13 AM EST

what i am proposing is not fascist, what i am FIGHTING is fascist. how can fighting fascism be fascist?!

there is money involved, but it's not the point in the least. even if there were no money involved, the point is still valid: a way to channel passion for the cause into a larger organization via the net. money will probably come with that, but it's not needed, and it's not the point. so capitalism? what the hell? fascisms? what the fuck?

no, asshole neither capitalism, nor fascist, have anything in the SLIGHTEST to do with what i am saying

you are quite blind and ignorant, propagandized and prejudiced

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

logic, you're not speaking it (none / 1) (#340)
by livus on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 10:50:39 PM EST

"how can fighting fascism be fascist?!" - CTS

I rest my case.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

you honestly believe (none / 1) (#342)
by circletimessquare on Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 09:54:33 AM EST

that heinous crimes have the same moral value as the efforts to punish those crimes?

i'm the one with the problem with logic?!

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

been through this with you before, rapist-raper (none / 0) (#349)
by livus on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:14:53 PM EST

You wanted to rape rapists; I told you it was a recursion. Remeber?

Yes, you do have a problem with logic, but it makes you a more effective troll and we love you for it.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

well yeah, rape that bitch (none / 0) (#350)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:33:19 PM EST

because she is basically writing off the rape of hundreds of thousands of nonjapanese at the hands of japanese nationalists

in other words, show her what she denies, punish her for crimes she works hard to remain unpunished

but you don't have to talk to me man, go to shanghai and say i'm the rapist, not her

at which point, i'll let the average chinese person readjust your stunted inability to distinguish between the criminal, and the punisher of the criminal

in your strange mind, me, the punisher of criminals, is the same as an actual criminal

you're weird


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

s of/ off n (none / 0) (#333)
by livus on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 12:56:31 AM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
the burmese generals plan: (none / 1) (#173)
by mikelist on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 07:10:56 AM EST

1)goad someone into trying to kill them.
2)kill them back.
3)profit.

sad fact is that more than these generals must die for the people to get a better deal. any such plan would have to have support (or at least lack of opposition)of the military, at this point that is unlikely.

because of the above-mentioned factor, the plot would have to originate among burmese with extremely well-guarded anti-government ideas. the most likely reason for these bozos to get grass roots in the face is another group of military men who see the damage done to their people, but soldiers tend to think like soldiers.

wikipedia for master sergeant samuel k. doe for an idea of how that could go sour as well.

well yeah (none / 1) (#182)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 02:22:58 PM EST

that's why the burmese need international support

duh


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

but if any american is linked, (none / 0) (#188)
by mikelist on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 03:00:04 PM EST

it will become an 'imperialistic plot to overthrow the peaceful people's republic of myanmar', and any positive local results will be canceled out globally.

 talk to a myanmar soldier today, try to plant the seeds of liberty in his brain. perhaps that way we can avoid planting a bullet in his bosses' brains ourselves. just hope he's not too ambitious. he could be the next thwe

don't know any burmese military? me neither.

[ Parent ]

you're a fucking retard (none / 1) (#196)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:17:44 PM EST

all 3 of your comments are so far from contact with reality it feels beneath the usual intellectual charity required to talk to you


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
you said... (none / 1) (#209)
by mikelist on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 10:01:16 PM EST

..."you're a fucking retard, all 3 of your comments are so far from contact with reality it feels beneath the usual intellectual charity required to talk to you".

okay, you speak as if there is a sensible line to take on this nonsense. if there is, please elaborate, i haven't seen one yet.

seriously, nothing that has been discussed in this thread would make more than a nominal difference in the rule of myanmar.

as far as intellectual charity goes, i'm a pretty patient person, so don't let your impairments keep you from trying to be heard.

[ Parent ]

ah that would be pessimism (none / 1) (#211)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 10:28:18 PM EST

the height of genius

zzz


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you fuckin' ay... (none / 0) (#239)
by mikelist on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 07:08:06 PM EST

...i'm pessimistic about your suggestion to whack foreign (dick)heads of state who don't live up to our standards. in terms of releasing the grip of oppressive governments, it seems to have a nearly zero success rate, unless you count opportunities for military and engineering infrastructure corporations.

[ Parent ]
you're forgetting something (2.00 / 2) (#268)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:06:41 PM EST

most anything is better than someone like the burmese generals, hussein, or mugabe. even multinational oilhungry corporate mashups. they suck. but not as bad as those other blokes. who ever said getting rid of these assholes was oging to create a world of milk and honey? marginally better is still better

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
s/thwe/than shwe/ (none / 0) (#210)
by mikelist on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 10:21:34 PM EST

big ideological difference.


[ Parent ]
Not new, still as flawed as when first proposed (none / 1) (#175)
by Gwern on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 11:39:47 AM EST

Congratulations, circletimessquare, you have effectively reinvented assassination markets <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Assassination_market>, except assassination were at least somewhat plausible (even though they probably wouldn't work, see <http://web.archive.org/web/20061020081619/http://www.anti-state.com/murphy/murphy17.html>) and your version isn't even that.

how is it flawed? (none / 0) (#181)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 02:22:04 PM EST

it's not


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
papers (2.50 / 2) (#178)
by Dramacrat on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 01:13:16 PM EST

where's the dotted line? my bags are ready.

What total shit. Which morons voted this up? $ (none / 1) (#187)
by Elija on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 02:55:23 PM EST



we're trying to get him investigated (3.00 / 8) (#189)
by LilDebbie on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 03:18:08 PM EST

by the FBI

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

[ Parent ]
I think I disagree (2.00 / 2) (#193)
by levesque on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 08:38:26 PM EST

The generals, like principles, are grounded in a dynamic system and express themselves within context as we all do. Who will replace them, how did they get there.

John is being beaten by Mary and Paul is paying Mary to do what it takes. I propose stopping Paul from paying Mary, stopping Mary from beating John, and working on the spreading web of cause behind Paul paying Mary --the dynamic system beyond the stereotypical closed system of National interests.

This is not to say that killing is never the right stuff or that there is not extreme suffering going on, but this is to voice that fundamentalism and closed systems imply dogma. Evil exists as a human concept not because in a binary space it makes sense, it does, but because a fundamentalist jump has been made from the binary space to reality.

hai (2.00 / 2) (#206)
by circletimessquare on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:30:52 PM EST

please to be reading about burmese modern history

please to be identify youself with nobel prize laureate in prison yangoon

thank you sirs to paying slightest bit attention before open ignorant mouth

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I'll take you seriously when you take the rules of (none / 1) (#220)
by insomnyuk on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 12:13:48 AM EST

the English language seriously.

---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken
[ Parent ]
i'll take that subject change (none / 1) (#226)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 11:48:29 AM EST

as an admission of loss on the topic


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Sorry but you are wrong again. I take your lack of (3.00 / 4) (#231)
by insomnyuk on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:31:15 PM EST

proper formatting to be a lack of respect for your readers. Hence, I am no longer willing to reply directly to any more of your comments. I know you will be devastated by this and contemplate suicide, but I can no longer brook your childish, post-modern approach to writing, so I think it is worth the risk.

As to the debate itself, it was never a win/lose proposition for the entire topic. I think the idea of getting rid of the junta is fine in the strict sense of evil people needing to be punished, but you never really answered my arguments, as usual. You engage in cherry-picking things to attack based on what you perceive as weaknesses in your opponent's argument, with a splash of personal attacks on your opponent's intelligence or character, to boot. This is hardly worth anyone's time, even when one's time is worthless.

All of these things further enhance my theory that you are a poorly written script designed to troll k5. When I figure out how you are controlled I will be able to destroy you. For now you are going on /ignore.

Cheers,

Dan

---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken
[ Parent ]

DOES NOT COMPUTE (3.00 / 2) (#232)
by circletimessquare on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:33:34 PM EST

ERROR 235 IN CTS BOT

ERROR 235 IN CTS BOT

*BOOM*

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

don't you know anything? (none / 0) (#284)
by rhiannon on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 08:08:29 PM EST

Kill the leaders of a military junta and poof! democracy. It's magic.

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
Don't you know (none / 0) (#299)
by levesque on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 07:08:33 PM EST

Privatization Barney has to also make an appearance

[ Parent ]
This is very poorly written (1.33 / 3) (#201)
by thankyougustad on Sun Oct 07, 2007 at 09:21:20 PM EST

K5 is dead.

No no thanks no
Je n'aime que le bourbon
no no thanks no
c'est une affaire de got.

You sound more like (2.75 / 4) (#223)
by MotorMachineMercenery on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 03:31:53 AM EST

ESR all the time. Either suggest something vaguely workable, or shut the fuck up. Internet deathsquads, LOL!

who is esr? nt (none / 1) (#267)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:04:54 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Eric S. Raymond. Best known as the founder of (3.00 / 2) (#289)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 12:23:36 PM EST

the Open Source movement, he is also a prominent gun nut.


Looking for some free songs?


[ Parent ]

but i'm not a gun nut nt (none / 1) (#290)
by circletimessquare on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 12:33:14 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Cost-benefit (2.20 / 5) (#229)
by Sgt York on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 01:36:46 PM EST

Say you have a group of people. They have an amount of money and resources that they are ready to dedicate to helping the people of the world in some way. Now, they have to figure out the best way to do it.

You propose to use that money in a way that is essentially guaranteed to start a war. Worse, if this assassination is in any way traced back to a citizen of any powerful nearby political entity, (China, India), fanatic isolationists in that area will use that information to consolidate their power block through fear, laying the foundation for the next war. Worse, if involvement can be traced to a citizen of a distant political entity (US, EU), fanatic isolationists the world 'round will use that meddling to consolidate their power. It doesn't matter that it was just some dude from Russia that helped pay for it. In the eyes of the people, it will be (Mother Russia, The American Imperialists, British Hegemony, rebuilding the Chinese Dynasty, etc) trying to dominate the world, one overpopulated developing backwater at a time.

Violence is not very cost effective. Sure, it may be the only way to help Burma. But Burma may not be the best one to help at this point. I know that sounds pretty bad, but when you have limited resources, you have to pick and choose who you are going to help. Yeah, a good bullet only costs a quarter, but in this case they really nail you on the shipping & handling.

Use that money to buy and ship relief of some sort. Use the Tiber clones with the itchy trigger fingers to guard the stuff from the warlords.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.

This is what I thought too (none / 0) (#238)
by livus on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 06:53:26 PM EST

I don't see why he doesn't advocate us all donating to flood relief in West Africa at the moment.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
because it makes no difference (3.00 / 3) (#263)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 03:59:55 PM EST

political change must come, or a trillion dollars won't make a bit of difference. and if political change is not coming, it must be prodded


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
fair point. (2.00 / 2) (#295)
by livus on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 05:16:50 PM EST

That does make sense.

I just don't think intervention-by-highest-bidder is an effective way to create the kind of political change you want. In the long term it's unstable.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

unstable? that's your concern? (2.00 / 2) (#297)
by circletimessquare on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 06:42:07 PM EST

we have great stability under the burmese generals

slavery under the butt of a gun is pretty stable

so that's preferable to you?

what the fuck?

i prefer unstability over stability under a despot

how about you?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I like a Gershwin tune, (none / 1) (#301)
by livus on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 11:37:55 PM EST

how about youuuu?

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
hello (none / 1) (#265)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:02:36 PM EST

9/11 hijackers

society of the black hand (murdered austrian archduke before wwi)

john brown's raid on harper's ferry (precipitated american civil war)

etc.

i don't worry about starting a big war, i'm counting on it

you seem to think a state of stasis in which the burmese suffer is acceptable. it's not. i am very willing to trade some short term increase in suffering for a long term reduciton in it

by your logic, the usa should still have slaves, because we don't wantr to rock the boat and have a civil war

no, sometimes that war is unavoidable, because the status quo is unacceptable

why is it acceptable to you?

and why do you think it can be changed without war?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

As usual (2.00 / 2) (#281)
by Sgt York on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:58:02 PM EST

You only read ~25% of the post. So I shall repeat, filtering out some of the extraneous, confusing words. Point #1:
Violence is not very cost effective.
Got that part? Remember it. It's important. OK, now for point #2:
Violence ... may be the only way to help Burma
And to be clear, helping Burma is a good thing. OK...now we're ready for point #3:
... when you have limited resources, you have to pick and choose who you are going to help.
With me so far? I've made three statements there. Now, be careful. What comes next is the difficult part, where I take three different thoughts, and put them together to arrive at a conclusion:
Burma may not be the best one to help at this point.
This conclusion flows logically from points 1-3. Now, I know logic is not your strong suit, so I'll make it easy for you. The potential weak spots in my argument lie in the three initial statements. If you can prove any one of those false, the conclusion is gone.

I do not think their plight is acceptable. However, the same could be said for a dozen other groups in a dozen other locations. Allocating resources to stimulate armed conflict in Burma will be squandered. It would work, sure, but for the same cost you could help an order of magnitude more people somewhere else.

For further clarification, here are the words you have put in my mouth:

  1. The current state of affairs in Burma is acceptable
  2. Rocking the boat is bad
  3. My logic somehow defends slavery. And possibly the Holocaust.
  4. I think war is always avoidable
  5. That the state of affairs in Burma is going to magically change without violence.
I never said, implied, or hinted at any of those things. I'm just being callously objective.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

rolls eyes (none / 1) (#282)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 05:06:20 PM EST

i joust at your assertions

namely:

name one other regime, just one, in this entire world, that has:

  1. piled up the same amount of abuse of its citizens
  2. over a lengthy period of time
  3. faces the same condemnation from the entire world

i will grant you this: no one's going to invade, because burma has no oil. but that was my starting observation in my screed above: no noation will do anything about the burmese generals, so therefore it falls upon the backs of individual citizens united by the internet to effect surgical strikes

in other words, you are using conventional analysis to dismantle my unconventional proposal. does not compute, son

if you wish to dismantle my unconventional proposal, you must meet me at the fact that it is ideologically motivated, not motivated realpolitik,which you think dismantles ideology

no: realpolitik dismantles the traditional willpower and traditional means to enact ideological beliefs

however, you might bave noticed by now that my proposal is not traidtional. it doesn't depend upon nation states for support or rubber stamping. it relies upon individual agents, freely associated and organized outside of any ocnventional military or geopolitical structure

ok, now take some more pot shots at me. but this time, try aiming at where i actually stand, rather than aiming and firing at an imaginary position

wet your finger, stick it up in the air, notice the 10 mph NNW wind. ah, now make your adjustments to your mortar

there you go


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Sigh.... (2.00 / 2) (#286)
by Sgt York on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 03:52:00 AM EST

So stuck on your assumptions....Still trying to put words in my mouth. Do me a favor: tell me everything you think I'm saying upfront, that way you won't have to keep attacking points I'm not making. I realize it is easier for you, but please, control yourself.

I'm not talking about just regimes.

In fact, my whole point is that the focus should not be on just regimes.

You are aware that there are other causes of suffering in the world, yes? Natural disasters, infectious diseases, famine, cultural ennui.... These are the things I'm talking about. It is more cost effective to attack those things than it is to try to kill some heavily guarded general. Sure, there are regimes that make it harder to help those in need (e.g., Somalia), but they are obstacles to the goals. Overcoming them is simply a means unto an end. And even then, only one means.

And yes, practical considerations of application do trump idealism. Clinging to an ideal when it has been proven nonproductive, wasteful, or even counterproductive smacks of fundamentalism. If you make the claim that having an ideal can somehow alter the the nature of the world, alter the way things really work, if you aren't even willing to question the wisdom of those ideals when confronted with the practical considerations of their application, then you are a fundamentalist.

There's the way it oughtta be, and there's the way it is.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

dude (none / 1) (#287)
by circletimessquare on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 10:49:07 AM EST

i'm not putting words in your mouth

nor are you better defining your position

what you are doing is changing the subject

subject: kill the fucking burmese generals

stay focused or fuck off


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

ROFL (none / 1) (#293)
by Sgt York on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 03:25:43 PM EST

Coming from you "Stay on target.....stay on target!"

This isn't fun anymore. I was kinda hoping for some new material, but you're so stuck in your schtick that you can't even figure out a new tactic when your standard doesn't work. It's just another minor variation, and it's oooolllllldddddd. Hell, even MMM is branching out into video game stuff.

A word of advice: Try something new, round out your repertoire. The "I'm not a warmonger, BOMB THE FUCKERS!" thing is kind of fun as a variation of your usual bait, but the follow through is quite disappointing.

I already made my point to all the people I care to communicate it to (i.e., everybody but you). I'm going to find somebody else to play with now.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

i don't want to bomb anyone asshole (none / 0) (#294)
by circletimessquare on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 04:16:50 PM EST

i want to murder the guys on top


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I always forget (3.00 / 2) (#300)
by Sgt York on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 11:33:55 PM EST

that you are hopelessly oblivious to all forms of subtlety.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

you want subtlety? (none / 0) (#303)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 08:43:41 AM EST

in a site where outright blindness, prejudice, kneejerk reactions, insanity, stupidity, ethnocentrism, selfishness, and all other forms of personal delusions usually dominate all discussions?

you're looking for something fragile and subtle, in a room where drunken bulls shit on each other


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Shrug (none / 0) (#306)
by Sgt York on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 09:14:18 AM EST

Most other people here don't seem to have a problem with it.

Also, is English not your first language? These words you keep using. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

you come to k5 for subtlety (none / 0) (#307)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 09:45:42 AM EST

and i'm the one who has a problem with meaning

pffffft


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I provide it (none / 0) (#308)
by Sgt York on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 10:23:38 AM EST

I do not seek it.

Are you going to provide any novelty for me? I know I may be barking up the wrong tree....but it's worth a shot.

I expect great things from you, don't let me down!

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

you expect great thing from me? (none / 0) (#309)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 11:39:23 AM EST

then read my fucking article above, and shut the fuck up

i'm glad you're providing the subtlety. i guess even the pentagon needs an interior decorator

who would have known that the most subtle delicate wallflower here would be called "sergeant"


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Disappointing (none / 1) (#310)
by Sgt York on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 11:44:12 AM EST

I thought I made that clear.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

yes (none / 0) (#311)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 12:44:01 PM EST

interior decorators don't like brutal design, not subtle enough

so why don't you leave the tank building to me, and why don't i let you decide if the tank should be pastel or a lovely shade of mauve

i know i disappoint you, but i don't know about these subtle things, that's your department

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

HEY (none / 1) (#312)
by Sgt York on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 12:59:53 PM EST

None of that.

You are not allowed to bring this thread back to the original topic. It is a tangent, and has achieved escape velocity. It can never return.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

Don't blame China for Myanmar (2.83 / 6) (#230)
by insomnyuk on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 02:24:41 PM EST

Blame the ___ ?

Burma's number 1 trading partner is not China, but Thailand, which is now run by a junta.

---
"There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness." - H.L. Mencken

And the majority of Thai industry/finance is owned (3.00 / 2) (#255)
by Wen Jian on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 02:03:47 PM EST

by whom?

Da Dada Da Da Daaaaaa...
Da Dada Da da dAaaaaaa...
Da Da DAaa, Da da daaaa
DA da da da daa daaaaaaaa.

YEs! another undemocratic junta, propped up in the interests of US markets.
It was an experiment in lulz. - Rusty
[ Parent ]

yes (none / 1) (#261)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 03:58:47 PM EST

but the burmese generals have a couple of decades and tens of thousands of dead bodies lead in the biggest douchebag olympics race

give the thai generals a few decades and thousands of dead. then we can talk about murdering them too


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Why the hell do.... (1.50 / 2) (#234)
by The Amazing Idiot on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 03:41:43 PM EST

We care about some Buddhist monks in a military dictatorship? We have our hands full with Middle Eastern politics as it is.

I sure as hell dont. A civil problem in another country is NOT our problem.

Now, if you wanna play Assassination politics, be my guest. Guess we'll see your articles from GitMo after declaring that you want to start up a militia to kill a foreign head of state.

Moron.

well you're an american (none / 1) (#260)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 03:57:17 PM EST

you only care about american things

so shut up and get back to your starbucks and suvs and mcmansions, and leave the world in the hands of those actually care about it


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Bad precendent. (2.50 / 4) (#235)
by NovaHeat on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 04:36:20 PM EST

Myanmar generals = bad. Kill them. Okay. Sounds good. What if you extend the logic.

Lots of people think Bush is bad and is responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. Is he a legitimate target? Some would say yes.

Okay. Extend it further. Lots of people think abortion is bad because it kills babies. Lots of babies. So are abortion doctors targets? How about judges who uphold Roe vs. Wade? Well. Some people would say that they're legitimate targets.

A lot of people think "the West" as a whole has a lot to pay for because of things that happened a hundred years ago.

A lot of people think "Muslims" as a whole have a lot to pay for.

A few decades ago, a lot of people felt like "the Jews" had something to pay for. A cursory glance at the discourse reveals that a lot of people still do.

How far do you want to extend the logic?

Does everyone now have the right to be the arbiter of who gets to live and who has to die for the "good of humanity"?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a pacifist. I'd love to see the government of Myanmar collapse (or be overthrown...), but organizing "freelance assassination" on the internet because you're outraged?

Get real.

-----

Rose clouds of flies.

uh... (2.00 / 2) (#259)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 03:56:17 PM EST

basically you're saying i'm setting a bad precedent because entrenched partisan interests might adapt my rationale

might adapt?

hello???????? they are already doing everything you fear might happen!!!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

No. (none / 1) (#291)
by NovaHeat on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 12:49:52 PM EST

I'm saying that independent groups like the KKK, the American Front, various left-wing eco-terrorist groups, radical Islamic groups, or some home-brew internet assassination organization -- anyone -- would have precedent to pretty much start murdering whomever they felt.

Ever heard of "slippery slope"?

-----

Rose clouds of flies.
[ Parent ]

you're a fucking moron, x2 (none / 1) (#292)
by circletimessquare on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 02:43:47 PM EST

#1: THEY ARE ALREADY DOING THIS RETARD

"precedent"?

are you fucking serious?

"oh, hai, i am member of stormfront. i wasn't going to do anything bad, but then i heard about killing the burmese generals. now my conscience is clear"

ARE FUCKING SERIOUS MORON???

how about polonium 210 poisoned russian expats? how about antisyrian lebanese politicians? how about russian reporters? how many other examples do you want form the last year?

PRECEDENT???

you have aserious fucking moronic defecit in how you understand how the world oyu live in works

#2: slippery splope

THERE IS NO SPLIPPERY SLOPE. when i say burmese generals, i mean burmese generals! what fuckign slippery slope you low iq douchebag?

you are a genuine fucking retard


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I may be a "genuine fucking retard..." (none / 1) (#313)
by NovaHeat on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 01:49:27 PM EST

But evidently you're a sub-literate troll. Try actually thinking about what I wrote, what I meant, and what that means. Your ideas seems to stop about here: -->| when you should be thinking forward to about here instead: ----------------->|

To try to help you achieve this small feat, let me attempt one further illustration:

Suppose a bunch of us here on Kuro5hin decided we'd had enough of your absurd verbal abuse and took it upon ourselves to track you down and break your hands -- for the common good of Kuro5hin.

Sounds ridiculous, nay? Now go back and read your original post. Think about it. Make connections.

I can't hold your hand through this any further. The rest is up to you.

-----

Rose clouds of flies.
[ Parent ]

you've simply proved how fucking stupid you are (none / 0) (#314)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 02:09:32 PM EST

#1: PEOPLE ALREADY DO THAT. THERE IS NO PRECEDENT SETTING FOR WHAT ALREADY EXISTS. you honestly believe what is done or is not done to the burmese generals will add interest in this idea to more nefarious purposes?!

#2: I COULD RANT HERE FOR 1,000 MORE YEARS AT 1,000x THE LEVEL OF HATE AND VITRIOL, AND I WOULDN'T BEGIN TO VAGUELY RESEMBLE WHAT THE BURMESE GENERALS HAVE DONE BY MANY ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE

for thinking your retarded exmaple applies, and not understanding what is and is not a precedent, you are genuine bona fida low iq cretin

educate yourself shitstain, then open your ignorant mouth

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Well. (none / 0) (#315)
by NovaHeat on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 02:24:10 PM EST

I can see you're destined for a long and fruitful academic career.

-----

Rose clouds of flies.
[ Parent ]

yes, academics is my goal (none / 0) (#316)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 02:36:29 PM EST

i have nothing but profound respect for and an awesome desire to enter the pantheon of those who pedantically teach about that which they can't do anything about

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Well then. (none / 0) (#317)
by NovaHeat on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 02:44:18 PM EST

A lifetime of clownish posturing as an amateur revolutionary should suit you nicely. Change the world. Make a difference. And all that.

-----

Rose clouds of flies.
[ Parent ]

better than sitting in the ivory tower (none / 0) (#318)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 02:59:24 PM EST

sneering down on the ugly real world, but wondering why you aren't relevant


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I agree (2.80 / 5) (#246)
by rhiannon on Mon Oct 08, 2007 at 10:41:13 PM EST

People with money should be able to anonymously murder anyone they deem immoral.

I can't fucking wait.

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC

in your own words (none / 1) (#249)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 09:41:03 AM EST

how would characterize the actions of the burmese generals and their deserving of death or not


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
honestly (none / 1) (#251)
by rhiannon on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 12:12:58 PM EST

I have no idea, I have personally witnessed not a single shred of hard evidence of their crimes and won't condemn someone to death over the internet based on hearsay.

I assume that there are people out there making those judgments, based on hard evidence, but those people are not you.

That doesn't mean I don't like your system though, because I do!

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]

wow (none / 1) (#252)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 12:15:10 PM EST

"hi, i freely admit i'm ignorant, but that won't stop me from forming an opinion i want you to take seriously"

please educate yourself, or shut the fuck up

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you've got me all wrong cts (none / 0) (#283)
by rhiannon on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 08:03:51 PM EST

I totally agree, the burmese generals deserve to die, I support your lynch mob.

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
lynch mob implies (none / 0) (#285)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 10:24:40 PM EST

a superior avenue for justice is an option before us

pray tell fool, where is that?

i don't see one, in which case, any justice is better than no justice


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Look ahead -- it won't work (none / 1) (#250)
by redelm on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 11:06:24 AM EST

Assume for the moment you are successful. Why do you believe the Junta will simple step aside or be forced aside?

The military is well prepared for violence and casualties. Colonels will replace assassinated generals. And they will be even more repressive since they will justifiabily fear assassination.

I'm very sorry to conclude the Burmese people simply are too pacifistic to avoid exploitation by the violent. The polar opposite of many in the middle east who seem to aggressive for progress. Yes, outsiders could come in and depose the Junta at some unknown cost. And that will work well for years until the next Junta forms.

.

psychology of the big man (2.00 / 2) (#258)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 03:53:46 PM EST

when too much power is concentrated in the "big man" facade, the shattering that facade also shatters the whole rationale for the power structure it props up via fear. you fear the big man, because he is powerful and untouchable. but if he is shown to be touchable, his power via fear is diminished too. it's psychological

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Junta != BigMan (3.00 / 2) (#264)
by redelm on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:02:30 PM EST

This is where the Junta are clever: they do not have a BigMan like Saddam Hussein. A group is much harder to attack, and easier to replace losses.

[ Parent ]
the big man is untouchable (1.50 / 2) (#266)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 04:04:21 PM EST

unless he isn't

applies ot a handful of anonymous generals, or a charismatic castro/ mugabe figure head. the point is, all thuggish governmenrs rely on rule through fear of the untouchable head. if the head cna be touched, fear dissipates, hope can take hold


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

not really (none / 1) (#322)
by khallow on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 07:16:38 PM EST

Burma has a head of state. It doesn't matter if they can easily replace the head of state. They look weak if someone kills that guy.

Stating the obvious since 1969.
[ Parent ]

Do they? Who by name? (none / 1) (#323)
by redelm on Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 07:41:23 PM EST

The idea behind a Junta is to have a group. Yes, it isn't as strong appearing as a single strongman. Yes, there is a "head of state". That's not the issue. The question is how power is shared. A junta is a whole lot more stable because replacement is much easier. A cabinet without president.



[ Parent ]

let's see (none / 0) (#336)
by khallow on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 10:57:44 AM EST

General Thein Sein. CIA says he's the "head of government". Doesn't matter if he is or not, nor how replaceable he is. His death would be noticed.

Stating the obvious since 1969.
[ Parent ]

Yabbut (none / 0) (#337)
by redelm on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 11:24:37 AM EST

Sure, the death of any general is noticed. But each is less important than a single strongman like Saddam. It is much less likely to bring down the regime.

[ Parent ]
Well, it's not automatic "win" (none / 0) (#339)
by khallow on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 09:00:20 PM EST

You have to keep killing figureheads until they get tired of it. Personally, I don't think anyone is going to go this route, it's just people like cts and I blowing off steam. Nobody really has the balls for it. So instead, we'll go with some far messier way.

Stating the obvious since 1969.
[ Parent ]

Oligarchies stable, and military accept death (none / 0) (#341)
by redelm on Sat Oct 13, 2007 at 05:41:03 AM EST

Yes, I recognized the OP suggestion is whimsy. But I had two rather more serious points to make:

Oligarchies are more stable than dictatorships. This goes for politics, bureaucracies, corporations, acedemics, religions, etc. Democracies are still more stable/unreformable. What we think of as "big change" US Presidents, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, JFK, Reagan are so more from the situations they were in than any personal initiative. Likewise the lessers like Carter and Bush42.

Second, militaries expect and accept casualties. "Defensive Pretense" aside, that is what they're all about: killing people to steal [back?] women and other resources.



[ Parent ]

Hey, next time you're being reamed by Ann Coulter (1.66 / 3) (#254)
by Wen Jian on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 01:56:55 PM EST

Make her a little 'I feel dirty' groan/shudder from me.
It was an experiment in lulz. - Rusty
what do i have to do with anne coulter? (none / 1) (#257)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 09, 2007 at 03:52:01 PM EST

an effective smear has at least a little grounding in reality

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Burmese activist dies under interrogation (2.75 / 4) (#288)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed Oct 10, 2007 at 10:56:32 AM EST

Link.

An active member of Aung San Suu Kyi's opposition party in Burma has died under interrogation, as the crackdown against last month's protests continues.

Win Shwe, a 42-year-old member of the National League for Democracy was arrested with five colleagues on September 26, the day the junta began to put down the demonstrations.

According to a Thailand-based human rights group, the Assistance Association for Political Prisoners, the security forces told Win Shwe's family that he had died during interrogation.

He has already been cremated. The article didn't say, but I speculate they cremated him to prevent an autopsy from being conducted, that could have demonstrated that he died from torture.


Looking for some free songs?


we claim our first victim (none / 1) (#338)
by circletimessquare on Fri Oct 12, 2007 at 04:28:24 PM EST

our means of assassination was karma

strange, that's him pictured in cebu, for the asean summit in january. cebu is in the central philippines. didn't know these fuckers left the bunkers. i'm in cebu every other year. i don't see any bullet proof glass partitions protecting him

hmmm

let us prepare for the next asean summit


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Suggestion (2.28 / 7) (#343)
by phraggle on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 11:14:58 AM EST

In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. They promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team.

Well Done - I would have given it +1FP (3.00 / 2) (#344)
by harrystottle on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:22:33 PM EST

Had I been passing through when this was in the queue.

No Joke. This is one of the best argued stories I've seen from CTS. 'Course, I would say that as he's making the same kind of case I tried to make here in Feb 2003 as my own feeble attempt to head off the Iraq War.

But frankly, I'm happy to concede that he's done it better. He's obviously judged the K5 crowd better as well because they voted my effort down in about 8 hours I think.

I am a little surprised that only one person raised Jim Bell's modest proposal. I have - by pure blind coincidence - just suggested the use of Assassination Politics in respect of the State Bullying of Steve Kurtz.

I have previously argued against AP on the optimistic grounds that our intellect should always be able to find a better way out of our problems than a bullet through some deserving bastard's head. But when you come across an increasing flood of abuse of State authority like that, and as it becomes more and more obvious that  nothing and no-one is prepared to stand in their way, I have to say that Jim is looking more and more like a visionary every day...

Mostly harmless

you were voted down (none / 0) (#357)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 05:38:26 PM EST

because of the dupe accounts by the assholes

i had stories like that tank too, for the same reason

reconstitute your story, the dupe accounts are gone, so your story will probably get voted up this time


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

typical western reaction (1.50 / 4) (#353)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 02:55:43 AM EST

you see something terrible happen and you want to be able to write a cheque so that you can feel like you've made a difference. only this time there's no sally struthers going on television late night telling you that if you send just one dollar a day you can make the problem in burma go way.

of course there is no easy way to make the problem go away. there is no solution that involves merely writing a cheque. but you aren't looking for a solution to the problem, you're merely looking for a solution to your white man's guilt. and cutting a cheque to some organisation so that they will send you glossy pamphlets every month telling you what a good person you are does the job.

ahhh poor cts, there is no such organisation for burma. there isn't any way he can live a comfortable life in NYC and still feel like he's a great person that is making a difference. except maybe he can come up with some ill-conceived plan, put a half-assed effort into it, then when it inevitably fails, he can feel good. at least he made an effort unlike those other assholes out there who obviously don't give a shit.


see what i wrote above? (none / 1) (#356)
by circletimessquare on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 05:36:39 PM EST

i said "this is a rationale based on universal human empathy, but watch the braindead assholes show up here and call it a western thing nonetheless"

and here you are, right on schedule


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

My best friend... (none / 1) (#362)
by Pnarp on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 10:13:07 AM EST

...Samuel Dreckers, is a trained assassin. He can kill you by just looking at you.

∼ Phillip Norbert Årp
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[ Current entry | Random entry ]
Defect (none / 1) (#363)
by Steeltoe on Mon Nov 19, 2007 at 09:19:31 AM EST

One drastic solution may be for the whole populace to defect, overflowing neighbouring countries.

Think mass-migration. Everybody but the most elderly and sick left behind. It won't be nice, but will send a clear signal to the nations of this world what is acceptable and not.

Then the generals can enjoy their country, without a populace to exploit.

It would require alot of organizing and secrecy though, and it depends on how many routes exists out of this hellish country.
Explore the Art of Living

WTF? (none / 0) (#364)
by vectro on Tue Nov 27, 2007 at 07:53:28 PM EST

Tyrannical regimes throughout history have used the exit visa as a counter to precisely this issue. Do you think it was so easy for the common man to escape communist Russia? Do you think that Burmese or North Korean citizenry today can migrate en masse elsewhere, even if the destination country receives them?

“The problem with that definition is just that it's bullshit.” -- localroger
[ Parent ]
For the Freelance Assassination of the Burmese Generals | 371 comments (332 topical, 39 editorial, 0 hidden)
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