Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
So Bhutto is murdered. What's the next stop on the train to Hell?

By circletimessquare in Op-Ed
Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:06:18 AM EST
Tags: militant fundamentalism (all tags)

I am reminded of an event 93 years ago, in which Franz Ferdinand was shot, plummetting Europe into war. World War III is coming, and the flashpoint is the Islamic world. Much like Serbia in 1913, it is fragile and fragmented and there is a determination by a large focused interest group to see violence done in the name of their agenda. And, in the use of violence, they have successfully advanced their agenda.


And so the madness will continue. The interests behind Bhutto's assassination, behind much of the misery in the Islamic world in the last 20 years, behind terrorist strikes around the world in the last few decades, it's not fading away. It's picking its targets, coordinating its agendas, preparing for its self-fulfilling prophecies of armageddon.

Cue the usual retards who think the West is to blame. As if all of Europe and North America disappeared into a puff of smoke, the hostilities in the Islamic world would suddenly cease. No, what we are seeing is a desire to see a return of the Islamic Caliphate, and in this sense, the desire to see a unified, strong Islamic world, those murdering innocents will not be dissuaded by anything.

Of course, a strong, unified Islamic world is a good thing, a stable thing, something that will and should come to pass someday, much like Europe is unifying. But that's not what will appear through the efforts of the current posse working to see that come to fruition. Europe went through centuries of one madman after the next murdering millions attempting to unify Europe through force. Only recently has Europe matured to the point where unification can happen peacefully.

We are decades or centuries even away from that in the Islamic world. And much like all of Europe's neighbors suffered due to the efforts of the madmen there for centuries, so shall Europe, India, Africa and the rest of the world suffer as one madman after another tries to unify via force in the Islamic world, and fails in a spray of blood and viscera.

One must understand nationalistic pride, ethnic pride, religious pride to understand the violence that is going on in the Islamic world and will continue in blood and guts for the rest of the lives of everyone reading this sentence. Pride. Wounded pride. Blind wounded pride. Mad with blood lust to see grievances assuaged.

Pride sees itself, its people, hurt and divided, and it acts in anger because of that. It seeks strength, to prevent the weakness that leads to the tragedy and pain that wounds pride.

But the cosmic joke currently unravelling in the Islamic world that just claimed the life of Benazir Bhutto, is that those who seek strength and unity through violence are the ones reponsible for the pain and the weakness and the division that angers them in the first place.

And we shall all suffer for it, in the Islamic world and everywhere else, for decades to come. Fire up the crematoria, unzip the body bags, dig the graves. There are billions of dead and innocent to come as long as false pride is not yet sated.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Related Links
o Also by circletimessquare


Display: Sort:
So Bhutto is murdered. What's the next stop on the train to Hell? | 249 comments (226 topical, 23 editorial, 1 hidden)
RON PAUL (1.88 / 9) (#1)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 10:29:34 AM EST

No, seriously.

but can ron paul fix my canker sore? (2.33 / 3) (#3)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 12:12:01 PM EST

i require further information before supporting the universal salve called ron paul


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Probably, yes (2.00 / 2) (#6)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 12:59:16 PM EST

He is a medical doctor, you know

[ Parent ]
RON PAUL CURES ORAL HERPES (2.50 / 4) (#12)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:31:04 PM EST

PRAISE JESUS!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
In all seriousness, (2.50 / 2) (#18)
by Naysayer on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:01:05 PM EST

If you have a canker sore, try switching to Sensodyne toothpaste.  It is free of sodium laurel sulfate, the foaming agent found in most toothpastes.  Some people (myself included) are sensitive to SLS and generate canker sores more easily when using it.

Since I've switched to Sensodyne about three weeks ago I haven't had a serious canker sore, despite having a persistent cold that usually would guarantee a few.

[ Parent ]

L-Lysine is good for canker sores (none / 1) (#21)
by krkrbt on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:23:54 PM EST

I keep a bottle on hand, as I do get them occasionally. L-Lysine is an essential amino acid...

My girlfriend used Sensodyne when I met her. I suggested a switch to straight baking soda (sometimes mixed with a little salt), and now her teeth don't bother her anymore.

So yes, Mr. CTS, Ron Paul will protect your right to buy L-Lysine over the counter at the grocery store, while the Medical-Industrial Complex would much prefer that you would have to have a prescription.

[ Parent ]

serves me right (2.33 / 3) (#22)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:27:52 PM EST

try to smear a ron paul supporter, wind up with a discussion about canker sores on my behalf

at least i didn't pull "anal fistula" out of the hat when reaching for a random nonspecific problem in my attempt to show up the parent poster who was trying to push ron paul as a cure all


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

cure (2.33 / 3) (#44)
by binford2k on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:07:51 PM EST

Oh, for that, try a little mayonnaise.  It works wonders, I promise.

[ Parent ]
I recommend Lysergic Acid Diethylamide. (2.00 / 2) (#29)
by Josh Smith II on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:06:43 PM EST

600 micrograms should be enough to get all the information on the universal salve you need.

-- Josh Smith recommends you take a hulver hike.
[ Parent ]
what the hell do you think i have been on (none / 1) (#33)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:23:06 PM EST

the last 5 years?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Amyl nitrite (2.00 / 2) (#37)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:30:44 PM EST



[ Parent ]
salvia divinorum (none / 1) (#39)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:32:18 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Rusty's dick. (2.33 / 3) (#42)
by Josh Smith II on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:59:40 PM EST



-- Josh Smith recommends you take a hulver hike.
[ Parent ]
"the person who introduces homosexuality (2.00 / 2) (#43)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:06:07 PM EST

into any given conversation, is the homosexual"

it's some sort of law of teh internats


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

More like CTS making shit up to cover his own (none / 1) (#45)
by Josh Smith II on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:21:09 PM EST

homoeroticism.

-- Josh Smith recommends you take a hulver hike.
[ Parent ]
i love you (none / 1) (#46)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:26:27 PM EST

will you suck my dick?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Sorry, no. But Orion Blastard might (2.33 / 3) (#54)
by Josh Smith II on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:33:46 PM EST

if you write an article for the freelance assassination of liberals.

-- Josh Smith recommends you take a hulver hike.
[ Parent ]
Are you retarded? (2.00 / 2) (#5)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 12:13:28 PM EST

How does one say they aren't supporting colonialism/imperialism/hegemony anyway in the same breath they lament the decline of the dollar in the world market?

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Consider (2.00 / 2) (#7)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:07:47 PM EST

a government that doesn't support colonialism/imperialism/hegemony, say, Switzerland.

Now look at the US dollar (USD) versus the Swiss Franc (CHF).

[ Parent ]

not much movement there (2.00 / 2) (#9)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:11:33 PM EST

Which is probably why Iran didn't choose the franc...

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Perhaps you would prefer (2.00 / 2) (#11)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:18:23 PM EST

this

[ Parent ]
You must be retarded (2.00 / 2) (#14)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:38:59 PM EST

It's the same chart. What are you getting at? The alternative to the dollar has been the Euro and yen (the Euro is what I'm talking about regarding Iran), which you should know all about 'fiat currency' being a Ron Paul fan. It also enjoyed almost twice the movement against the dollar as any other currency.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Let us remember (2.00 / 2) (#19)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:07:03 PM EST

this all began when you asked, "How does one say they aren't supporting colonialism/imperialism/hegemony anyway in the same breath they lament the decline of the dollar in the world market?"

The answer is this: some Americans would like to live in a country that is not cursed with war and inflation.

Of course, the Euro has increased versus the dollar; you could say the same thing about almost any other currency in the world (except perhaps that of Zimbabwe). I chose Switzerland because it is a better example than the European Union, which unfortunately occasionally elects an American stooge to high office.

[ Parent ]

No, they don't (none / 1) (#23)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:28:02 PM EST

Sarkozy is French, I'm not even touching that.

Also a swing and a miss on the currency observation, the reason why Iran didn't go with the yen is because the yen follows the dollar. Which is also why the currency observation in and of itself is moot. If your poster child Ron Paul is correct, then a fiat-fiat-currency like the Euro representing the currency of Iran (the rial) is worthless. You will notice that in the one year USD v rial graph, the rial sucks. In fact, if you're trying to make the argument that war weakens the economy, a glance at the USD v rial 5 year shows absolutely no change in the trend of the rial spiraling downwards.

But to go back to your own example, comparing the USD against the CHF 5 year, we see the CHF take a downturn (or rebound, depending on how you look at it) quite recently. Can you explain this?

As far as inflation is concerned, you can compare sweden v america and spot your failure.

And as far as war is concerned, Sweden felt guilty about falluja and committed troops to the EU QRF.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

What do Iran and Sweden have to do with this? (none / 1) (#26)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:47:59 PM EST

Iran = socialist
Sweden = socialist

I fail to see what this has to do with Ron Paul.

As far as the recent downturn of the Swiss Franc and other currencies (the graph is 1Y not 5Y), that is the result of this. Again I fail to see what that has to do with Ron Paul.

[ Parent ]

what does ron paul (none / 1) (#27)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:54:35 PM EST

have to do with benazir bhutto?

you threadjacked my story with your ron paul bullshit

that means you can't complain when some retards threadjack you


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

What does the US (none / 1) (#30)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:10:05 PM EST

have to do with Pakistan?

[ Parent ]
what does my foot (none / 1) (#31)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:21:47 PM EST

have to do with your ass?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Keep the Democratic party out of this (2.33 / 3) (#35)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:28:58 PM EST



[ Parent ]
You brought Sweden into it (none / 1) (#28)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:02:02 PM EST

I'm guessing since you're now saying Sweden has nothing to do with it then you've seen the fallacy of your logic.

You should learn about Ron Paul and the dangers of fiat-currency and the wisdom of the gold-standard.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

..and we have a winner. (none / 0) (#131)
by tx on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 09:37:27 AM EST

please read: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/154802/differences_between_switzerland_ and.html

[ Parent ]
colonialism/imperialism/hegemon (none / 1) (#144)
by iggymanz on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 01:23:40 PM EST

last time I checked, the Vatican had Swiss guards, talk about supporting the biggest imperialist hegemony mass-murdering motherfuckers on the planet.

[ Parent ]
Lew is off his Rockwell on this one (3.00 / 2) (#47)
by postDigital on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:48:11 PM EST

"The US had installed Musharraf as military dictator after kicking out his elected predecessor, Nawaz Sharif..."

To believe this, one has to forget that Clinton distanced himself from Musharraf after the coup, and that GW Bush didn't have an 'effin clue who Musharraf even was in 1999.

Another part of the problem Lew fails to mention is that the Sharif government was itself corrupt, and that was a primary reason for the military coup in 1999.

The history of US involvement in Pakistan's affairs is long and storied. A good analysis from long ago is:
Ted Galen Carpenter, "A Fortress Built on Quicksand: U.S. Policy Toward Pakistan", Cato Institute, Cato Policy Analysis No. 80, January 5, 1987.
Some other very important pieces of the puzzle are found in:
Matt Kelley - AP, "Pakistan threatened to give nukes to Iran, ex-officials say", USA Today, February 27, 2004.



[ Parent ]
shhh (2.33 / 3) (#48)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:53:34 PM EST

don't bring us logic and reason

we all know everything bad that happend in the world is the fault of the usa


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

W never has a clue (none / 1) (#50)
by ridge on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:13:40 PM EST

But he did have an opinion:
"The new Pakistani general, he's just been elected -- not elected, this guy took over office. It appears this guy is going to bring stability to the country and I think that's good news for the subcontinent."
When the US says you're in for "good news" and "stability", look out.

[ Parent ]
Spinfrau Hughes - feet to the fire (none / 1) (#55)
by postDigital on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:34:13 PM EST

The Karen Hughes spin should be remembered for its cluelessness in the Post-911 light too. After GW, a candidate for US President, had gone 0.250 for 4 on who the current leaders of Chechnya, Taiwan, India and Pakistan were (he did identify Taiwanese President Lee Teng-hui as 'Lee'), the Hughes spinning was reported by CNN as:

"Bush's campaign spokeswoman defended the governor's performance. 'The person who is running for president is seeking to be the leader of the free world, not a Jeopardy contestant,' said Karen Hughes, communications director for the Bush campaign.

'I would venture to guess that 99.9 percent of most Americans and probably most candidates could not answer who is the president of Chechnya,' Hughes added."

Of course, more than 99.9 percent of Americans were not running for the presidency. I do have a "Jeopardy contestant" query for Karen Hughes though:

As US President, he was tasked with the duty of America's defense on September 11, 2001.

And I'd like to remind Ms. Hughes, that since America has been in Double Jeopardy since 911, to make sure she frames her answer in the form of a question.



[ Parent ]
so tell us (2.00 / 3) (#8)
by rhiannon on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:11:04 PM EST

who do we need to invade next?

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
no one (2.00 / 2) (#10)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:13:54 PM EST

but let me ask you something: is any of this the fault of the west?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
people are responsible for their own actions (none / 1) (#15)
by rhiannon on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:40:16 PM EST

I've never said any different.

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]
well then goody, we agree 100% (1.50 / 2) (#16)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:45:14 PM EST

and we both agree the solution to the problems in the islamic world lies with muslims there

maybe next conversation we can agree on what should be done when demagogues in the islamic world blame the decadent west for the troubles in the isalmic world, and some morons bomb the west in "retaliation" for us being so decadent?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I know! (none / 0) (#137)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 12:10:35 AM EST

do a half-assed job of tracking down those responsible and instead focus on invading a country that was their enemy?

[ Parent ]
i don't think fighting fundamentalist assholes (none / 1) (#140)
by circletimessquare on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 02:57:42 AM EST

means despotic assholes get a free pass


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
what about if (none / 0) (#141)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 04:30:24 AM EST

fighting a despotic asshole means the fundamentalist asshole goes free? Bear in mind that the dspotic asshole was never a threat. Also by going after said despotic asshole you give other despotic assholes the opportunity to build nukes?

[ Parent ]
the only way to peace (none / 0) (#149)
by circletimessquare on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 08:05:31 PM EST

is to bar all assholes

trading one asshole for another makes the people mistrust your intentions


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

LOL WHAT (none / 0) (#162)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 05:21:05 AM EST

you can't simultaneously defeat all the the assholes in the world all at once, dumbass. You gotta take em out one at a time... start with the worst then work your way down the list. Use strategy, play one asshole against the other.

the US has lost this war due to hubris. the neocons thought they could take on everyone at once. they couldn't and so they just made things worse.

[ Parent ]

i don't support the neocons (none / 0) (#165)
by circletimessquare on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:03:04 AM EST

but it looks like currently in iraq, saddam loyalists are extinct, al qaeda is on the run

in other words, the surge worked

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

The fact that al qaeda even exists in iraq (none / 0) (#176)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 11:45:35 PM EST

is a failure. See there was absolutely zero al qaeda in Iraq before the invasion. zilch. nada. nothing. Can you really claim success for solving a problem that you created?

And you do know being "on the run" is a normal part of guerilla warfare, right? Unless you can maintain the "surge" forever, al qaeda will just come back.

And now you got Turkey bombing the kurds (with the help of US intelligence) in Iraq. Remember the kurds? the only guys in Iraq that actually like the US? So the Sunnis hate you because they aren't running anything anymore, the Shia hate you because you aren't implementing Sharia, and the Kurds hate you because you're helping Turkey bomb their villages. Good work on winning the hearts and minds there guys.

Plus with all the attention focused on iraq, very little has been done about al qaeda in afghanistan and pakistan. Remember those guys? the guys that actually did 911? They've gotten stronger and now, not only is afghanistan fucked, it looks like pakistan is too. And pakistan has nukes.

While you were fucking around in iraq, your enemy just got a hell of a lot stronger and they might even be able to get nukes someday.

[ Parent ]

is the kkk the fault of black people? (none / 0) (#179)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 12:08:36 PM EST

a bigotted organization like al qaeda, organically derived from ethnocentric religious bigotry, is the fault of the middle east, and the middle east alone

al qaeda is not fighting for the kyoto protocol, its not fighting to avenge che guevara. its fighting for an islamic caliphate

why in your mind is the fault of the west, in any way at all?

do you blame the raped woman for wearing a short skirt?

the way you blame al qaeda on the west is the exact same thinking

god wonders why you see so much menace in the west. you are aware of what a qaeda does to pursue its agenda, and what motivates al qaeda?

i guess not

what a retard


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

blah blah blah (none / 1) (#185)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:44:08 AM EST

you still haven't addressed the fact that al qaeda didn't exist in Iraq before the invasian but is very powerful there now.

Also I don't get what you're arguing for. Are you saying al qaeda is a muslim problem so the US shouldn't be bothered? No... elsewhere you argue that isolationism is not an option.

So if the west has no choice but to intervene, then should this intervention be as effective as possible? And shouldn't we criticise the US when it totally fucks up this intervention?

We could have won afghanistan. Now we'll likely lose afghanistan and pakistan as well. We've lost central asia so the US could have an unsuccessful adventure in iraq.

[ Parent ]

this is the part that blows my mind (none / 0) (#187)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:07:59 PM EST

al qaeda is made up of what people?

al qaeda preaches what goal?

if an asshole raes a woman, and he says it was because he saw a porno mag, is it the fault of the porno industry for getting the guy honry?

of course not. something else would have set the asshole off eventually

in such a way, you try to blame the existence of al qaeda in iraq in the usa

if anything, if the usa never got involved, al qaeda is probably the one that would have overthrown saddam!

you need to get cause and effect worked out in your mind

blaming al qaeda in the usa is the height of stupidity

if the usa disappears into a puff of smoke, does al qaeda lay down its arms and become pastoral sheep farmers?

no, they keep right on murdering innocents, because their agenda is the resurrection of the caliphate

do you understand cause and effect?

al qaeda=organic, solitary ultiamte cause of grief, not an effect of anything the usa does

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

hahaha (none / 1) (#189)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:43:57 AM EST

al qaeda would have never overthrown saddam. It may have been the same people, but they would never have affiliated themselves with al qaeda if it weren't for the US. The insurgency in Iraq has associated themselves with al qaeda because of the principle of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

If the US never invaded Iraq, their enemy would have been Saddam, and the enemy of their enemy would have been the US.

[ Parent ]

al qaeda would have never overthrown saddam? (none / 1) (#190)
by circletimessquare on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:44:45 AM EST

well shit, considering the eminence of the academic pedigrees, state department officials, and un representatives here on k5, how can i argue with such an unquestionable judgment?

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

dude (none / 1) (#197)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 08:43:18 AM EST

al qaeda didn't exist in iraq until after the US invaded. No one disputes that.

I do believe you just lost this argument.

[ Parent ]

that's incredible (none / 1) (#199)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 10:23:02 AM EST

islamic fundamentalism didn't exist in iraq until the usa invaded

funny me, i thought islamic fundamentalism was in iraq a couple of centuries before the usa existed

how the HELL does an ideology born of absorbed in and concerned with a region and a religion completely alient to the usa, become the fault of the fucking usa?

it's amazing the way you people think!

my grandma has gout

usa did it


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Now you're changing terms (none / 1) (#202)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 09:20:15 PM EST

You were before saying al qaeda would take down saddam. Now you say islamic fundamentalists. These terms aren't interchangeable.

Yes there were islamic fundamentalists in Iraq. But they were being kept under control by saddam. After the US invaded, iraqi national pride was hurt and many aided the fundamentalists. The Iraq insurgency is a nationalist movement that has been used by al qaeda for their own ends. Similar to how the isurgency in vietnam was a nationalist movement used by the communists.

You invade a country, you have to expect a resistance to form. The most radical people in the country are willing to take more risks and are seen as being brave and earn respect from the rest of the resisters. Thats just how it goes.

The fundamentalists were easily controlled by saddam despite the fact that no one really liked him. The US has had a lot more difficulty with them because the invasion of iraq gave anyone resisting the occupying force a lot more respect an legitimacy.

[ Parent ]

al qaeda IS islamic fundamentalism (none / 0) (#203)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 11:02:11 PM EST

and you're telling me it's ok to have despotic dictator, to keep out the fundamentalist militants

hey, i got a wacky idea

why don't we get rid of BOTH

can you wrap your mind around that concept?

fucking moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

why can't we get rid of BOTH (none / 0) (#204)
by procrasti on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 02:23:25 AM EST

reality?

-------
if i ever see the nickname procrasti again on this site or anywhere in my life, i want it to be in an OBITUARY -- CTS
doing my best at licking arseholes - may 2015 -- mirko
-------
Winner of Kuro5hin: April 2015
[ Parent ]
huh? (none / 0) (#208)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 01:58:02 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
you are not invicible (none / 1) (#206)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 08:04:35 AM EST

you can't destroy all your enemies at once. You gotta choose your battles wisely. Go after the immediate threat (al qaeda in afghanistan and pakistan) thhen once you got that done move one to the less immediate threats.

The number one most important rule of warfare is never EVER enter a two front war if it is at all avoidable. The fact that you don't get this proves that you're the fucking moron here.

[ Parent ]

seems like iraq is going fine now (none / 0) (#207)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 01:57:49 PM EST

same with afghanistan

prove to me otherwise


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

seems like they're both going to shit (none / 0) (#226)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 06:18:44 AM EST

prove me wrong

[ Parent ]
ok, i'll prove you wrong (none / 0) (#227)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 09:45:27 AM EST

wait, do nothing

it's what your best at anyways


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Haha (none / 1) (#237)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 11:28:49 PM EST

You're one crazy dude cts...

but thats why I love you.

[ Parent ]

what??? (none / 0) (#231)
by vivelame on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 06:55:53 AM EST

not even teh OMGIRANIANSTEHBOMBTEHBOMBTHEYREGOINGNUKULAR!!!111!!?ONEshitisoiledmystarspangled underwears ?
Can we at least bomb them back to the stone age?
or murder their leaders, scientists, and stuff?

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
of course (none / 0) (#236)
by circletimessquare on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:26:15 AM EST

because menace in this world only flows from the west

the west occasionally rapes and pillages, for absolutely no reason at all, without any provocations. they are aplways the perps, never the victims

meanwhile, all other peoples in the world are pastoral sheep farmers, who bear no ill will to anyone else

la la la la la


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

well. (none / 1) (#239)
by vivelame on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 05:33:49 AM EST

what country did teh iranians invade in the last, say, mmh, 30 years?
Compare and contrast. Not just words, but deeds.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
paranoia becomes them (2.33 / 3) (#13)
by Star Fox on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:36:48 PM EST


------

all works entered on kuro5hin.org should be considered the equivalent of fictional performance art by the severely mentally ill. read at your own peril.


simple solution - isolation (1.00 / 2) (#17)
by khallow on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 01:55:10 PM EST

Ie, let them have their pride and stuff. Just don't let them out unless they can demostrate some sort of compatibilty with the rest of the world.

Stating the obvious since 1969.

problem: (1.33 / 3) (#20)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:10:11 PM EST

demagogues in the islamic world who blame all the problems in the islamic world on the decadent west

inspiring morons to bomb the west

it is then impossible not to get involved

furthermore, would it be magically possible to completely wall out the islamic world, not need its oil, and historical involvements all instantly vaporized from everyone's minds, what would be left behind those walls when all the dust settled? superhitler with legions of passionate religious nut jobs at his command?

simple point: there is no such thing as isolation in this world. maybe back in the days of sailing ships and desert caravans, but not in the world of the internet and jet air travel and satellites and mass media

isolationism simply doesn't work anymore. no one is safe from this madness. no one. not you, not me. and there's nothing anyone can do to isolate themselves from what is going on here. its part of your world. deal with it


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

zerg (none / 0) (#56)
by FattMattP on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:41:52 PM EST

Correction: we *want* their oil. We, as a country, just don't have the balls to stand up and use other forms of energy because using their oil is more cost effective in the short term.

[ Parent ]
we give saudi arabia money (2.00 / 2) (#57)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:49:00 PM EST

saudi arabia fund wahabbi madrassas. cute little kids grow up to spend all of their time scheming to kill us all. not very cost effective


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
But that's a result of the short-term planning (none / 0) (#108)
by FattMattP on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 12:38:11 PM EST

But that's a result of the short-term planning. The fat cats don't care about the occasional nut job with a bomb because they'll send Johnny and his gun to take care of it and tell little Johnny that it's for "freedom." And all the little Johnny's gladly line up and die for "freedom" so the money can keep rolling into the fat cats' coffers.

If we were to make an effort at better energy choices and think about the long-term ramifications of our oil dependency we'd all be better off, hopefully without making so many enemies in the process. The ones who stand to lose are the fat cats. Meanwhile the soccer moms are oblivious. They'll keep manufacturing little Johnnys and driving their SUVs never giving it a second thought.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[ Parent ]

freedom is a valid concept, not a joke (none / 1) (#109)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 12:44:00 PM EST

and without reproduction, society would collapse

you're a moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

freedom is a valid concept, not a joke (none / 1) (#112)
by FattMattP on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 02:51:59 PM EST

I realize that freedom is a valid concept. But if anyone thinks that the Americans fighting in Iraq are really fighting for freedom, I have a bridge they may be interested in buying.

[ Parent ]
some of them actually believe that (none / 1) (#113)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 03:11:11 PM EST

you may be correct about the existence of nihilistic assholes in the administration who care only about oil and hegemony, but how do you destroy a real and genuine fervent belief that motivates the other group of people?

you don't defeat the nihilistic assholes in the admin by denying the genuine belief of an entirely different group of people

especially by becoming a nonbelieving nihilistic asshole yourself: "it's all about oil"

all you've really done is corrupted your own ability to effect positive change in the world by becoming an empty cynic, and you did to yourself

and you haven't done one thing to defeat the empty assholes in the administration

unless you believe you do that by becoming one yourself

so you're a complete loser


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

beats me (none / 1) (#124)
by FattMattP on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:22:10 PM EST

you may be correct about the existence of nihilistic assholes in the administration who care only about oil and hegemony, but how do you destroy a real and genuine fervent belief that motivates the other group of people?
Beats me. I wasn't even talking about that. I was just pointing out that we don't need the oil. We only want it.

[ Parent ]
we don't need the oil. hilarious (none / 1) (#125)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:21:41 PM EST

ranks up there in the top 10 stupidest things i've seen written here

you're a fucking genius

i mean that in the most sarcastic way possible

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

zerg (none / 1) (#128)
by FattMattP on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:38:05 PM EST

Care to elaborate?

[ Parent ]
no (none / 1) (#134)
by circletimessquare on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 01:20:42 PM EST

i'm just going to go over here and snap my fingers and no one will need oil anymore

(snicker)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

there are alternatives (2.50 / 2) (#138)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 12:23:19 AM EST

its just they're more expensive. Expensive enough thats its cheaper to deal with the corrupt saudis, invade iraq, etc.

[ Parent ]
obviously (none / 1) (#139)
by circletimessquare on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 02:56:37 AM EST

you're not the fruitloop i was responding too. you are realistic. check out what the fruitloop i'm responding too says


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I can't speak for him (none / 1) (#142)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 04:31:52 AM EST

but he seems to be saying you chose oil over its alternatives because the alternatives cost money while oil only costs lives.

[ Parent ]
wait (none / 0) (#153)
by circletimessquare on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 09:29:40 PM EST

when did i become the defender of the neocons in the white house?

"you chose"?

i didn't choose shit

but i will say this: human nature is shortsighted, and it is addicted to oil. as it should be. you simply dig high potent energy out of the ground. it doesn't get much cheaper then that

and furthermore, it's not about neocons in the usa. its about everyone filling their gas tank at any petrol station in the world

if you honestly want to fault the usa for this, then you should inform me that in kenya, austria, and china, nonone is filling their cars at fuel pumps anymore

until that happens, i fail to see why this is a western only problem

its a problem with human nature, and a problem for the world


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you don't have a choice? (none / 0) (#161)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 05:14:38 AM EST

sorry didn't realise that you're an autonomaton. And since you are someone that doesn't make any decisions, all discussion with you is pointless now isn't it?

[ Parent ]
all unrealistic discussion is pointless, yes (none / 0) (#164)
by circletimessquare on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:00:05 AM EST

go ahead, tell the world to stop using oil

it's an option

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Personal responsibility? (none / 1) (#177)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 11:56:23 PM EST

Do you speak it?

I can't make anyone stop using oil, but I can cut down my usage to be almost nothing. Unlike you I don't just throw up my hands and say "oh well I have no choice, gotta use oil".

This is the problem with the world today. Everyone has been convinced that they are powerless, that they don't have a choice, that they can't make a difference. Our society grinds everyone down to prevent them from thinking for themselves. Unthinking people make for better consumers.

But not everyone is like you cts. Some people can't stand being forced to be sheep. Jimmy Carter had it right when he said malaise was the greatest problem. We have people so demoralised now, they are so desperate, they believe the only way they can make a difference is by strapping a bomb to themself, or shooting up a school or whatever.

[ Parent ]

this is the problem of communication (none / 1) (#181)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 12:20:13 PM EST

my pov is not very different from yours, but you have thought i represent somethign else (helplessness) and i have thought you represent soemthing else (ludditeism)

no one is going to give up oil to live in caves

no one is going to stay on olil forever (it's impossible anyways)

the idea, as you articulated, and i agree with, is to go to something else besides oil asap, or do it later, with more pain

i say nuclear and electric cars


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

shit I need to quit k5 (none / 1) (#184)
by Zombie Schrodingers Cat on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:26:01 AM EST

I actually agree with cts... re: nuke+electric cars. unfortunately its unrealistic, since the greenies hate anything nuclear and the conservatives don't want to change from the status quo of coal+oil. Oh well I'll just stick with mass transit I suppose.

[ Parent ]
defections (none / 0) (#186)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:04:22 PM EST

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/09/2049204&from=rss

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/17/1939227

and many more

brains always wins over propaganda and stubbornness in the end


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

zerg (none / 0) (#188)
by FattMattP on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:28:35 PM EST

I was saying the same thing. I think all three of us are saying the same thing.

[ Parent ]
Exactly (none / 0) (#182)
by FattMattP on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 05:07:54 PM EST

That's exactly what I was saying. We can't just stop using oil altogether; however, we can stop buying oil from countries and regions that produce "wahabbi madrassas" (to use CTS' term) that want to plot our destruction. We don't need their oil. We can buy someone else's oil and find alternative energy sources. There are other countries that are extracting and selling oil. I know that the US buys oil (and gas) from these countries already. We have the capability, expensive as it might be initially, to supplement our oil requirements with alternative energy. The Japanese are looking to extract methane hydrate from the sea floor to reduce their need for oil. If memory serves correct, there are large deposits of this off the US east coast. Ultimately, I think nuclear power is the way to go, but the ignorance of the "Not In My Back Yard" crowd continues to cause problems with its expansion. It also doesn't help that the auto industry continues to ignore the demand for electric cars. A friend of mine leased a Think City for about three years until Ford took it back at the end of the lease to have it crushed. I know the owners were dying to buy them. I would have bought one myself had I been able to.

Although it would be beneficial in the long-term to look into these sources, it's cheaper in the short-term to keep giving money to people who hate us and send our kids to die to quell any conflict. Hard compromises ensure that profits win again over long-term regional stability increasing energy independence. The thing that really sucks, in my opinion, is that the longer we wait to make the transition, the more painful it will be later on.

Personally, I do as much as one person reasonably can to reduce my energy needs and to educate misinformed people about the safety of nuclear power.

[ Parent ]

problem? where? (none / 0) (#114)
by khallow on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 04:38:49 PM EST

demagogues in the islamic world who blame all the problems in the islamic world on the decadent west

inspiring morons to bomb the west

Bombs are limited in range and accuracy. They can only bomb what they can reach.

Stating the obvious since 1969.
[ Parent ]

oh that's neat (none / 1) (#115)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 04:47:12 PM EST

al qaeda isn't a global organization you say. when they bomb karachi, the bombs work, but when they bomb bali, or new york, or madrid, or tanzania, *poof*! the bombs magically don't work

thanks for reeducating me on the limited range of al qaeda's bombs, that their hatred is magically confined to the middle east. i did not know that

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you don't seem to get it (none / 1) (#121)
by khallow on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 06:05:20 PM EST

They are something of a problem because we don't have complete isolation.

Stating the obvious since 1969.
[ Parent ]

yes, we don't have complete isolation (none / 0) (#122)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 06:09:07 PM EST

are you going to tell me that it is possible to have complete isolation?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Wow... (none / 0) (#135)
by TrumanTxapote on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 03:12:51 PM EST

...that's some hard talking, man. By what means, exactly?

[ Parent ]
A big Eh here (none / 0) (#147)
by khallow on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 06:36:27 PM EST

I don't really know what I was thinking. Complete isolation isn't going to work, there's always a little leakage, even if it's North Korean commandos hitting the beach at night. I guess though the point is that you can to a great degree isolate the parts of the world that are actively attmepting to cause problems.

Stating the obvious since 1969.
[ Parent ]

you trained them (1.40 / 5) (#24)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:29:20 PM EST

they're your dogs. stop blaming muslims for your pets.


ah the stereotypes have arrived (1.33 / 3) (#25)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:38:39 PM EST

so if problems in the islamic world were created by the west, then you want the west to get involved in the islamic world more to fix its mistakes?

is that what you are advocating? ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

no actually gtfo (1.00 / 3) (#32)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:22:25 PM EST

no one wants you.


[ Parent ]
yes, no one wants me, its true (none / 1) (#38)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 03:31:30 PM EST

but no one wants you either. so in your most excellent wisdom, lead by example and fuck off, and i'll follow soon after, i promise


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
so who follows a pet? (3.00 / 2) (#145)
by iggymanz on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 01:39:18 PM EST

what does that say about people who willingly follow and contribute to mad pets?  The fundamental problems of the muslim world are still between the ears of muslims.  For example, every problem Bin Laden blames on the West really comes down to failures of his own culture.  Muslim greed sold out land from under Palestinians to allow what later would be Israel to form.  Historic tribalism and corruption makes the types of oppressive governments they have.  Muslim polygamy and religion makes for a huge population of disgruntled young men who will never have a mate and are thus ripe for recruitment for holy warfare.  To twist Orwell, picture a human double-jointed enough to stomp himself in the face, forever.

[ Parent ]
over 1.5 billion muslims (none / 1) (#192)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 10:03:28 PM EST

don't fit that tiny little picture you just created.

of course the dogs the west trained as their agents do. it's a western problem. clean up your rogue states you fucks.


[ Parent ]

so you're happy the usa invaded iraq then? (none / 1) (#193)
by circletimessquare on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:29:47 PM EST

and you want the usa to invade pakistan?

and the jimmy carter didn't protect the shah, so iran's theocracy is usa's fault too of course, so invade iran

and invade egypt, because we support mubarak

etc.

etc.

you sir are a sterling golden turd of boundless low iq


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Do you think rapists should be put in charge of (none / 0) (#194)
by procrasti on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 01:21:50 AM EST

women's shelters too?

Their fault, their responsibility.

-------
if i ever see the nickname procrasti again on this site or anywhere in my life, i want it to be in an OBITUARY -- CTS
doing my best at licking arseholes - may 2015 -- mirko
-------
Winner of Kuro5hin: April 2015
[ Parent ]

it's simple (none / 1) (#195)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 01:47:09 AM EST

the taliban is a us creation. you trained goat herders, gave them weapons, and let them engage in guerilla warfare under your supervision.

then you blame Islam for terrorist acts they claim responsibility for? explain that shit.


[ Parent ]

make believe the usa never existed (none / 1) (#198)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 10:21:15 AM EST

would the taliban exist?

of course it would. these aholes luagh at people like you. they are an ideology born of, motivated by, and absorbed in, islamic issues

and this is the fualt of the usa?

because for a moment in the 1980s, the agenda of the usa and the agenda of islamic fundamentalists were aligned in kicking communists out of afghanistan?

fucking incredible

my grandma stubbed her toe. must be the usa's fault


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Some irrelevant dead bitch thought so (3.00 / 3) (#200)
by procrasti on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 02:36:41 PM EST

http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2007/12/benazir-bhutto-us-policy-causes -world.html

-------
if i ever see the nickname procrasti again on this site or anywhere in my life, i want it to be in an OBITUARY -- CTS
doing my best at licking arseholes - may 2015 -- mirko
-------
Winner of Kuro5hin: April 2015
[ Parent ]
correct (none / 1) (#205)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 02:51:43 AM EST

the taliban would not exist if the US did not exist.

THE US GAVE THEM MONEY, GUNS, AND EVEN RECOGNIZED THEM.

[ Parent ]

ok, just to make this clear (none / 0) (#209)
by circletimessquare on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 01:59:32 PM EST

if the west did not exist, fell into an ocean, in 1940, or 1840, or whatever year satsifies your standards...

you are saying there would be no armed islamic extermists in the islamic world

i just want it clearly known that this is what you actually believe


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

yes (none / 0) (#210)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 03:17:54 PM EST

look at our history. we never had crazy mad extremists until they started studying satre and started receiving weapons from you guys with a mandate to take out the communists.

dude, bring me one meaningful incident from the ottoman empire going back that shows you a muslim wack job taking out thousands of people.

in fact, fuck it, look up how islam spread into China. COMPLETELY PEACEFULLY SINCE THEIR EMPEROR AGREED TO BUILD MOSQUES.


[ Parent ]

by your logic (none / 0) (#211)
by circletimessquare on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 09:06:48 PM EST

christian fundamentalism in the usa is the fault of the islamic world

if muslim fanatics had not done 9/11, then the christian fundamentalist movement would not have so much hatred for starting a new crusade on the muslim world

or something

it's of course bullshit, but this is exactly what your logic is: the ethnocentric turds of a given ethnic or religious gorup is somehow the fault of outsiders. as if anything except typical human stupidity is needed to start a bigotted group of people?

so here's my crazy logic: the ethnic bigotry of a given racist or religious fundamentalist group is the fault of that given religion or ethnic group

i'm really nutty for thinking that way huh?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

your logic is way off (none / 0) (#212)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:52:11 PM EST

"they hate us for our freedom" is a blatant lie. islam, has for centuries, been extremely tolerant of other cultures. in fact that's one reason you still see ancient churches in europe.

the problem isn't islam or christianity. the problem is a bunch of guys successfully implemented a government based on the ideals of leo strauss.

leo straus went back to the ideals of Plato's Republic and firmly believed in the "noble lie." this is the heart of the neo-con movement.

if you keep people religious and afraid you can control them and keep them in line thus building a better and more peaceful society. many people in the current us administration studied under leo strauss. and believe me you he'd be very happy right now.


[ Parent ]

you're an excellent troll (none / 0) (#213)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 01:48:08 AM EST

suppose that the american government was controlled by the illuminati and leo strauss's disembodied head in a bowl and teh j00s, and whatever else gives your paranoid schizophrenia a hard on

the truth is, in the middle east, india, china, south aerica, etc., there are people who are called ethnocentrists. these people believe that the arabs/ chinese/ indians/ europeans/ whatever their ethnic identity is, is the only valid people in the world, and everyone else is subhuman

this is true in all cultures, in all times. it's a very common tribal way of thinking

this thinking is endemic to that culture

it has nothing to do with whatever any culture EVER does

including beaming leo strauss's thoughts into the skulls of western neocons via mind control rays to complete the coming of xenu, or whatever your moronic thinking is

or rather, let's put it this way: describe the attitude of western neocons to nonwesterners

you've just described with accuracy the thinking of islamic fascists

it's an organic development of every culture

IHBT

or you're a supremely low iq cretin


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

muslims dont believe that at all (none / 0) (#214)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 10:25:28 AM EST

if you ever see footage of mecca you'd see all races gather without any prejudice. no one is treated better than another.

leo strauss' teachings are real and there are real interviews with US administration officials where they talk about his impact on their work. look for the bbc documentary "the power of nightmares."


[ Parent ]

of course muslims are tolerant (none / 0) (#215)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 10:54:22 AM EST

and of course christians are tolerant

within christianity, there's a fanatical psychotic armaggeddeon obsessed violent fringe

always has been!

same with islam

always has been!

why is this concept so fucking hard for you to understnad, and what the fuck does leo strauss have to do with it

of course, absolutely nothing

IHBT

hard


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

please show me extremist muslims pre ottomans (none / 0) (#216)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 11:45:32 AM EST

show me any extremists before the west got involved.

go ahead and do the research.


[ Parent ]

you're quite retarded (none / 0) (#217)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 12:38:38 PM EST

the existence of ethnocentric bigots is something that every culture has, in every time period, in all of human existence

in all of chinese history

in all of european history

in all of indian history

in all of arab history

in all of christian history

in all of muslim history

etc.

it's just a sort of baseline fact of human existence: bigots

does bullying by children, or rape or pedophilia, or any other human failure require the existence of certain geopolitical aggrevations?

no, it simply exists, springing organically from simple human failures

the existence of ethnocentric bigots is organic: it's a simple human foible. it does not require any actions, by any other ethnicity, to exist. it simply requires human stupidity, and blind human pride and selfishness to exist

but if you wish to believe that before the ottoman empire, all muslims were the epitome of human grace and tolerance like some sort of impossible demigods, then be my guest. who am i to interefere with the retarded illusions of human nature that sustain you?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

please demonstrate with one bonafide example (none / 0) (#218)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 02:03:50 PM EST

a muslim during the ottoman empire or before who was an extremist.

still waiting...

after the ottoman empire the corruption of the west seeped in and we have all these crazies lusting for blood. it's a sickness.


[ Parent ]

you honestly believe that (none / 0) (#219)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 02:08:32 PM EST

you honestly believe that baseline, natural, organic human foibles are the fault of the west

its mind boggling

you sir are one fine troll, or one fine fucktwit, i honestly can't tell

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

i think good people with a good system of laws (none / 0) (#220)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 02:26:17 PM EST

were removed and greedy people were brought in that caused all of this.

my proof is that this did not happen until the ottomans were wiped out.


[ Parent ]

please tell me your trolling (none / 0) (#221)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 02:55:07 PM EST

a concept as simple and as universal as greed, is a western invention

wow

even if you are trolling me big time, you have succinctly vocalized the thinking of a large moronic strain of people in the world quite succinctly


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

i'm the moron calling everyon a troll (none / 0) (#222)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:02:16 PM EST

who disagrees with me.

get a fucking job and stop mooching off your 9/11 payout.


[ Parent ]

so you really believe (none / 0) (#223)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:06:39 PM EST

the west is a source of a universal human quality?

calling you a troll is a complement, an excuse for this colossal stupdity you wish to convey about yourself

i couldn't imagine you are really that sheltered and provincial you are so ignorant of the reality of humanity

anyone else, i'd ask if you've ever been out of your own country, but you, i have to ask if they ever let you out of the basement and let you watch anything besides the prescribed tv and radio channels

what the hell you are doing on the internet god knows, as a few quick links should effectively educate you about universal truths of the human condition

including the reality of humanity in the pre-ottoman empire!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

are you on meds? (none / 0) (#224)
by zombie Colonel Kurtz on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:46:31 PM EST

take more.


[ Parent ]
IHBT (none / 0) (#225)
by circletimessquare on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:52:51 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I dunno, me thinks you are over the top here (1.75 / 4) (#49)
by postDigital on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:09:16 PM EST

As long as the blame doesn't get pinned on Musharraf or an official military act, this could instead work against Islamic fundamentalists using Pakistan as a breeding ground.

Don't expect any help from the putz, Nawaz Sharif. He's playing right into Musharraf's hand by blaming him for the assassination. Bhutto is down and out, and Sharif is blaming the tightrope walking president? If the blame gets laid at al Qaeda's feet, Sharif is toast.

So instead think optimistically:

  • Musharraf walks into his January election win, takes off the General jacket and rules his last term as an elected civilian
  • The Pakistan military perceives its tribal relationships with the radicalised Pashtuns as being a liability, and a threat to the future of Pakistan
  • This motivates the Pak military to push back against the fundamentalist expansion into urban areas in Pakistan, and they are forced back into the Northern frontier strongholds, where they can be slowly eradicated from two fronts; within Pakistan, and NATO shooting from the other-side of the Afghanistan border.

Admittedly, a very rosy, and therefore unrealistic depiction, but one can only hope.



whenever a moderate is killed by extremists (1.33 / 3) (#51)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:15:31 PM EST

it's bad

it's a solid strategy: anyone of note who is a moderate and is powerful, kill them

then the people have noone to turn to except extremists

you speak as if musharraf and sharif aren't on the menu

wait a few days


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

I think this is important. (2.00 / 2) (#62)
by FreakWent on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:01:11 PM EST

I think Pakistan needed Bhutto more than the USA needed those towers.  If the others are on the menu, especially Musharraf, I suppose it all depends on the army; will they accept Islamic rule? If not, will we see civil war, do the Islamists have enough support/men/rifles to stage one?

I must admit I know rather little about Pakistan compared with various other nations, so I can't offer much insight about their army.  However, I've always regarded the nation as somewhat strong in their secularism, like Turkey.

Times change though, is popular support for extremists likely in Pakistan?  If Islamic rule does come to pass, the wanna-be Nazis in the UK will get all uptight and harrass, attack and kill even more innocent British families than they do now.  Rather sad really.

[ Parent ]

pakistan is not as secular as turkey (none / 1) (#65)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:21:23 PM EST

but its close enough

the problem is, its drifting the wrong way


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

no, it's not close at all. (none / 0) (#230)
by vivelame on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 06:48:59 AM EST

close your mouth, your ignorance is showing.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
compared to saudi arabia and iran dipshit (none / 0) (#234)
by circletimessquare on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:18:46 AM EST

close your mouth, your not getting enough suction on my dick

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
you're just saying this because (none / 0) (#238)
by vivelame on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 05:32:45 AM EST

you're a Sore Loserman.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
Musharraf is an unlike;ly (1.50 / 2) (#63)
by postDigital on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:13:02 PM EST

They have tried to get Musharraf many times and failed. I am very confident that he is now receiving the best of intel, realtime, from western governments, plus the Chinese, and would assume that India would be more than willing to proffer up any relevant data regarding his personal safety presently too. Musharraf has no rational reason to go out into crowds, and his military bodyguard has been vetted and revetted for loyalty. Musharraf has been a long-term survivor in Pakistani politics, he's a tough nut to crack. Sharif has made himself irrelevant, and hopefully a non-target because of this.



[ Parent ]
the lebanonification of pakistan is complete (1.50 / 2) (#64)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:19:51 PM EST

you can't rule from a bunker. well, you can, but that's not a democratic country. which is the whole point. because the pakistani people hate musharraf now, and perhaps would rather give the extremists a try than mr. strongman now


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
this democracy shit need be curtailed (2.00 / 3) (#66)
by postDigital on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:52:59 PM EST

and let me be the first to say, Blame Bush (and of course, the neoconniving horseshit he rode in on).

America has never ever fucking been a democracy. It is a brutal mistake to place democracy on a pedestal. Democratic forms of government that do no come served-up with a heaping helping of respect for Natural Minority Rights that are preeminent to the powers of the state are some of the most brutish forms of government imaginable. They are mob-ruled barbarities which twist in the foul winds of public-perception. It is the rule of the guillotine controlled by the most heartless Madison Avenue bastards.

Worse, it is every winner becoming a threat to democratic processes, as they seek to shore up their power base in perpetuity.

What America should be attempting to export is respect for individual liberty; the Natural Rights of Humans. Democracy is not an ends, it is a means to representative government, which need be founded upon the ideal that ALL humans remain in possession of their own Natural Rights, to be an appropriate path to a better future.

This is what America has forgotten, and this is why so many acquiesce to our Government's Imprimatur Upon Acts of Human Torture.

Democracy is mostly a necessary sham. We'd be better off using a Jury-selection type process to pick our politicians. Look at our choices: Mayorlissimo Rudy, Hillarity, Ron the dominionist in libertarian wrapper Paul, Barrack Obama your mama's neoliberal, Fred the I only play a DA on TV, the lobbyist Thompson, Hey, take a few hits of LDS Romney, try the orange fucking sunshine, and chill-out. Anyone who desires to be president should be removed from the pool of possibles immediately, as being defective. All the rest of us have to take our chances in a random lottery.



[ Parent ]
dude (1.00 / 3) (#67)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:00:12 PM EST

let's assume for a moment you are not trolling me

democracy sucks, in many ways. but every other alternative is worse

unless you can describe a system of government that is superior to democracy, you must embrace democracy. for all the other choices suck worse


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

So to be clear (none / 1) (#76)
by bodza on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:43:28 PM EST

You would favour the election of Nawaz Sharif, the most popular living candidate, who took Pakistan to the brink of nuclear war with India and a man who has previously requested financial and military assistance from Osama Bin Laden?
--
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Émile Zola

[ Parent ]
do you have a better option? (none / 1) (#78)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:47:48 PM EST

what you just wrote sucks, i agree it sucks 100%

i'd like to see a better option

if there isn't a better option, sucks is what you accept


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

No answers here (none / 1) (#82)
by bodza on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:06:23 PM EST

I think the region is in for more pain, but probably not quite WWIII yet. My best guess is that fearing another Iran, we will continue to provide military support and intelligence to Musharraf who will either "win" the election or postpone it indefinitely. Better the devil you know.

While I find that distasteful, it would taste less bitter if it came with heavy strings attached with respect to future democratic elections and a program of non-military aid to assist those displaced by the war with neighbouring Afghanistan.

A swift timetable for moving Western troops out of the country would take a lot of wind out of the Islamist's sails as well. We're not leaving Afghanistan for a while so we might as well move all our bases there. It also reduces Musharraf's power over us. As it stands, he's a Saddam in waiting.
--
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Émile Zola

[ Parent ]

uh, you just changed the subject (none / 1) (#85)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:40:54 PM EST

unless you are telling me you don't support democracy in pakistan, that you support a military dictatorship

in which case, you're a moron


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Probably a moron (none / 1) (#89)
by bodza on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:52:28 PM EST

in your eyes, but I'll take that as a compliment.

I spelled out what I thought was likely, not what I thought was right, or preferred by me.

My preferred outcome would be for Sharif to win the election. He's not the man he used to be, and given the same level of outside assistance that Musharraf enjoys, would probably be able to keep both the army and the Islamists at bay.

I can't see it happening unless we:

  • stop providing intel to Musharraf
  • Get the blue helmets in place to monitor the election

--
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Émile Zola

[ Parent ]
huzzah! you're not a moron (none / 0) (#91)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 09:07:52 PM EST

i couldn't have said it better myself


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
maddogging (none / 1) (#100)
by postDigital on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 12:43:20 AM EST

I can seem completely off the wall, but I think you have an idea regarding the depth of personal study, and you have a fairly good idea what the following entails: Since September 11, 2001, I have put a fair amount of effort into investigating Pakistan; specifically US/Pakistan historical relations, and how it has affected international terrorism, and I have very generalised Pakistan data flags set that provide a wide angle dataset for ingestion at any particular moment. The constraint being my available time and motivation to collate it. This 'pastime' has also included several day trips into respected West Coast University libraries, and two chance encounters with real Pakistani History Scholars, one of whom is within my contemporaneous extended network of contacts. In no way should this be construed as a claim to scholarship on the subject. I am far too scattershot in focus, traversing the streams on the capricious winds of whim.

Here is just a very small sampling of product from 3 Cato wonks worthy of note:

I have also pressed personal contacts with Pakistani immigrants for information; from convenience store owners to software engineers, often to their great amusement. Almost to a man (yes, sadly they have all been males), they have exhibited a desire to emulate the three-monkey arrogant naiveté predicates of Americans regarding politics, and although I realise that this sample is in no way scientific, it has caused me to wonder just how deeply runs actual political fervency in the average middle-class urban Pakistani citizen. My guess is very shallowly, and that the majority of them would be quite content with another term for the quasi-military dictator/presidency of Musharraf, if it was successful in keeping at bay the madness of Bhutto's PPP, Sharif's PML-N and the Pashtun radicals' Talibanisation.

Pakistan Daily Times - December 28, 2007
Taliban leader warns against using religion for electoral gains
By Iqbal Khattak

A senior Taliban leader warned parties on Thursday against "using religion for electoral gains", saying they would join parties urging boycott of January 8 polls.

"In Shariah, democracy is un-Islamic. Our movement is completely against what you call democracy in which a small majority can decide irrespective of the fact whether what they have done was good or bad," the Taliban leader, asking not to be named, told Daily Times in an interview here.

He said the Taliban were "against elements who are using Islam for electoral gains".

I have vocally dissented against Bush's alliance with Musharraf as being a glaring counter-productive hypocrisy to his stated support for democratic processes, since right after 911. It has been this wanking dishonesty, along with the much more appalling sleeping with The Butcher of Andijon, The Uzbekistan kleptocrat Islam Karimov, which has greatly increased the numbers of those who most likely need to die for the world's better future.

Throughout it all, there has been the inner struggle to keep the voracious necromantical flames of war-knowing contained in the pigeon-hole they had been banished to; and the fight against the angst: questioning whether the will to spit into the eye of darkness as it descends still exists within. Try a contemporary sampling recently discovered:

Understand, {Ox^2}, I have cause to howl madly at a blood-red moon.



[ Parent ]
why does it take you so much effort (none / 1) (#107)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:24:02 AM EST

to deduce the obvious?

democracy > military dictatorship for allies

this is true for every single world leader, in every single era, in every single country

you really don't need to dig deep into the library stacks to understand some fundamental truths here about reality

further, it doesn't take much effort to realize that what happens in pakistan IS ABOUT PAKISTANIS. you speak as if bush can appoint who he wants ot run pakistan. this is not only ignorant, but rather patronizing and racist. why is musharaff in charge of pakistan? because of pakistan? or because of bush

go study in the library for 9 months on the subject deeply, i await your genius level insight

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

please... (none / 0) (#174)
by postDigital on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:03:02 PM EST

The US is not a democracy screed was hurling epitaphs into the well using a pure free-falling format. It was almost effortless. It is a method of mine for collecting ideas in a more orderly fashion, believe it or not. An intermittent need to scream into the well was a primary cause of my joining the K5 community for the first time a little less than a year ago. After lurking around it now and again for a very long time, I decided it was strong enough to take the full brunt of my rhetorical madness without causing it irreparable harm. I have also attempted to add positively to the community, and have willingly accepted the flaming as a self-educating process without holding grudges.

Also, you do not understand what I perceive about Musharraf and Pakistan if you think I am intimating that Pervez is Bush's boy. As I noted earlier in this article of yours: Bush didn't even know who Musharraf was in 1999. It is a marriage of convenience for both of them, and Bush has been exceedingly dishonest about Pakistan and International Terrorism since 911. Pakistan is an ally in the GWOT? Bloody fucking hell Dubya; they are a primary cause! Place me much closer to the camp of paleocons on this issue. Specifically, Armitage. Earlier this year, Musharraf made a trip to the US promoting his book. In it he mentioned that Armitage came to Islamabad busting hard after 911 telling him to get onboard the Afghanistan express, or get run over by it, cause it was a coming down the pipe, whether he agreed or not. That was putting a thick-necked baboon of a diplomat to proper use in my book. It was Khan who was exporting Nuke tech, not the Prick of Pyongyang. More lies from the Bush Admin.

Furthermore, I felt the war upon Afghanistan was not only justified, it was an American duty to help them come out of the dark ages, because it was our dicking around with the Soviet which put them there in the first place. The error was in not finishing up at Tora Bora in December 2001, and then standing up the Afghan people to autonomy. Instead, we were taken into the immoral war upon Iraq by the lying BuShill shitheads, Afghanistan still teeters on the brink, and our blood debt to the Afghani people has greatly increased.

Where is the honour?



[ Parent ]
here's 2 povs, you pick one: (none / 0) (#180)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 12:17:36 PM EST

  1. what happens in pakistan is the responsibility of the usa. therefore, the usa has to fix bad things that happen there. therefore, the neocolonial imperialism continues forever. only the white man can carry the burden

  2. what happens in pakistan is the responsibility of pakistanis. therefore, pakistanis have to fix bad things that happen there. therefore, pakistanis are masters of their own destiny

#2 is what pakistanis realized before pakistan even existed. wouldn't you like to think like a pakistani on the subject of pakistan? or would like to continue a mode of western imperialist thinking that went out of vogue before world war ii?

you decide, oh great scholar


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Why I love k5 (none / 0) (#156)
by waxmop on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 10:05:09 PM EST

A sentence that includes the word "fucking" shares a paragraph with a sentence that includes the phrase "Natural Minority Rights that are preeminent to the powers of the state".
--
"Return either with your TI-81 or upon it". nlscb
[ Parent ]
impractical (none / 1) (#172)
by Verteiron on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 12:52:49 PM EST

It's easier to say that America is "spreading democracy" than it is to say America is "spreading humanitarian idealism with liberty and justice for all". It's hard to think about spreading respect for your fellow humanity when you are carrying a gun into someone else's country. But the idea of "spreading democracy", however hollow, is easier to get behind.

I actually agree with your last paragraph, but where do you go to change the process? Railing against democracy on principle is fun, but pointless. Right now, it's the best system we have. Maybe some day we'll invent robots that keep us from being assholes to each other, like the alien in "The Day the Earth Stood Still". I'm not sure anything less has a chance of promoting the sort of respect for one's fellow man that you're advocating.
--
Prisoners! Seize each other!
[ Parent ]

It could have worked in Afghanistan (none / 1) (#175)
by postDigital on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:18:34 PM EST

if we had done the right thing, and not left them high and dry again. Iraq was a lost cause from the git, because it was instigated on lies, and is an immoral war.

How bout we limit our politicians to two terms then?

  • The First in Office
  • The Second in Prison


[ Parent ]
Thank you for supporting Saddam Hussein (none / 0) (#148)
by jxg on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 08:04:36 PM EST

however belatedly.

[ Parent ]
(scratches head) (none / 0) (#150)
by circletimessquare on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 09:23:52 PM EST

how's that work?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
It's fairly obvious (1.50 / 2) (#151)
by jxg on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 09:25:38 PM EST

that Saddam was a moderate who kept extremists under control like few others of his time.

I admire that you're willing to admit when you were wrong.

[ Parent ]

saddam was a despotic asshole (none / 0) (#154)
by circletimessquare on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 09:31:21 PM EST

al qaeda are religious extremist assholes

the idea is to get rid of both

why does getting rid of al qaeda mean i have to support saddam?

you call him a moderate?

what are you smoking you piece of shit? he's a despotic murdering asshole

do you support that?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

well. (none / 0) (#229)
by vivelame on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 06:46:05 AM EST

APM is a murderous despot, who's not even good at keeping AQ at bay. Why are you supporting him, again?

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
who said i was supporting him? (none / 0) (#232)
by circletimessquare on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:14:42 AM EST

if you assume a position someone has, you might as well just talk to yourself, since you don't actually want to communicate with someone

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
KILL KILL DIE DIE KILL KILL DIE DIE (none / 1) (#58)
by rpresser on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 05:50:32 PM EST

Kill them all ... the faster the better
------------
"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty
Excellent and succinct.. n/t (1.00 / 3) (#68)
by Calalily on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:14:17 PM EST


RUN LITTLE RATS, RUN!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAH! There is no escape. THERE IS NO ESCAPE. by Sgt York on Mon Dec 17, 2007
FFS (2.25 / 4) (#75)
by V on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:43:08 PM EST

This is weak even by your standards.

PROTIP: If you don't have a point to make don't bother writing crap and posting it to the queue.

It there any world event that you feel unworthy of your dull analysis?

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens

is there any of my dull analyses (1.20 / 5) (#77)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:45:41 PM EST

unworthy of your comment?

the armchair analyst is a sad pathetic fool

the boil on the butt of said armchair analyst is sadder still


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

They are all unworthy. (1.00 / 3) (#81)
by V on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:05:29 PM EST

But it is my duty to fight the cancer that is killing K5.

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

i'm providing content (none / 0) (#84)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:38:42 PM EST

your mindless negativity is the cancer

that really is the truth


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Your "content" provides negative value. (1.50 / 2) (#86)
by V on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:44:09 PM EST

Mindless drivel that starts from wrong premises, uses wrong methods in the wrong way and arrives to a wrong non-conclusion.

Seriously d00d, stop killing our web-site.

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

i have a number of stories voted up (none / 0) (#90)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 09:05:57 PM EST

you?

you don't speak for k5

i don't either

but based on a simple amount of content here voted up by k5 written by me, i apparently have some value here

you?

now little empty turd, let me help you out: write a story, get it voted up

but until you do that, i'm of more value than you here

and you think you speak for k5

that's funny man! ;-)

thanks for the laugh


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

D00d. (3.00 / 2) (#103)
by V on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 02:35:18 AM EST

I publish the crap I write in places that matter. Under peer review of experts in the field, not with voting of random k5-tards.

Enjoy the e-cock K5 provides you!

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
[ Parent ]

i crave your approval (1.50 / 2) (#106)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:19:55 AM EST

that you don't give it to me, it really hurts

*sniff, sniff*

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

+1FP, though, as usual... (2.25 / 4) (#80)
by harrystottle on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 07:54:35 PM EST

I don't agree entirely with your analysis. But we're not far apart on this occasion. Attributing it all to wounded pride is a bit short of the mark, but the dangers are real enough.

This gives a fuller analysis of the motivation.

It will be no surprise to learn that the ISI provided the opportunity and free passage for the weapon... but this IS serious.

If the Islamicists within the military believe they have enough support within the community, they might well try to exploit the shock created by this attack to engineer a coup and take Pakistan down the Taleban route.

With nuclear icing on the cake...

So we'd better pay close attention.

One thing though, can someone tell those stupid so called "western leaders" to shut the fuck up. They're doing it again ferchrissake.

Whatever we may think about the c*nt who shot her and blew himself up taking at least 20 others (mainly police guards - so obviously not all the military want to follow the Taleban route) with him; however evil, wicked, psychotic and terrorist you may wish to describe it as; the one thing it most certainly wasn't
- is Cowardice.

Mostly harmless

A fairly insignificant comment (1.00 / 8) (#87)
by Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:48:21 PM EST

Testing

Now, come fight night, you may feel a slight sting (none / 1) (#88)
by LilDebbie on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 08:50:43 PM EST

That's pride fuckin wit ya, Osama.

A toast to the billion dead! May their suffering be great!

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

Ahem (none / 1) (#92)
by sausalito on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 09:15:30 PM EST

Of course, a strong, unified Islamic world is a good thing, a stable thing, something that will and should come to pass someday, much like Europe is unifying.

Historically, the Caliphate was an absolute disaster and was everything but stable.

Europe is not being unified on the basis of its religion. And even ignoring this fact, the historic background for the unification of Europe are completely different (probably opposite) from that of an unified.

As for the historical necessity of such process, I think a few thousand years of history are against your opinion.

In one word, this sentence does not make sense.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"

try reading more next time (none / 1) (#93)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 09:22:14 PM EST

because i already said what you said

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Sorry I stopped there and then. nt (2.00 / 2) (#94)
by sausalito on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 09:25:41 PM EST


_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

Serbia 1913 (none / 1) (#95)
by Scrymarch on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 10:30:40 PM EST

there is a determination by a large focused interest group to see violence done in the name of their agenda

Which historical group are you referring to here?

Fun fact - one of the reasons Imperial Germany wanted to bring the Ottomans into WWI was the hope that Muslims in European colonies such as India would respond to a call of jihad and rise up against their colonial masters.

uh... al qaeda and al qaeda wannabes? nt (none / 0) (#96)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 10:53:03 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Which historical group? (none / 0) (#97)
by Scrymarch on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 10:56:45 PM EST

The assassins in Serbia were notoriously disorganised and didn't really plug into any sort of grand scheme like eg an Islamic Caliphate.

[ Parent ]
the black hand was not the islamic caliphate (none / 1) (#98)
by circletimessquare on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 11:15:54 PM EST

happy?

and exactly why do you think this means my comparisons between a fractured serbia before wwi and a fractured middle east now therefore falls apart?

what are your standards for drawing parallels?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Actually I didn't say the comparison fell apart (none / 0) (#99)
by Scrymarch on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 11:55:55 PM EST

The 1913 Balkans and the current Middle East do have lots of parallels - ethnic and religious violence, economic strife, decades of great power meddling. I was just wondering where you were taking it, because tying the Black hand to some sort of European unity program (which you almost do) is getting into some wacky Illuminatus territory.

[ Parent ]
careful now (none / 0) (#101)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 12:49:38 AM EST

ÖÐÍÀ ÐÓÊÀ Ó£ÅÄÈOeÅOeÅ ÈËÈ ÑÌÐÒ ÄÎÁÐÎÄÎØËÈ


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
我看不懂 $ (none / 0) (#102)
by Scrymarch on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 02:21:44 AM EST



[ Parent ]
k5 doesn't take serbian chars ;-( (none / 1) (#105)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:45:36 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Well done, cts. Interesting subject. +FP (1.50 / 2) (#110)
by dakini on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 02:40:34 PM EST



" May your vision be clear, your heart strong, and may you always follow your dreams."
I can't keep up with what the Kabal dictates. (3.00 / 2) (#117)
by Brogdel on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:06:01 PM EST

Half the time we're supposed to vote CTS up, the rest of the time we're supposed to dump his shit. I haven't gotten the latest E-mail concerning our position.

vote the gasbag asshole -100 nt (1.00 / 3) (#119)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:42:19 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Cultural genocide (3.00 / 3) (#118)
by IHCOYC on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:30:11 PM EST

The problem I see is simple. Any solution to the problem of the Islamic world requires what's called "cultural genocide." Solving the problem caused by the certain non-urban regions of the Islamic culture would require that the people there be systematically humiliated. They would have to be forcibly reduced to helpless dependency, utterly dependent on their superiors. Native extended family and "tribal" groups would need to be forcibly dispersed, and new ones on the old models made impossible. Their former leaders would need to be publicly humbled. Their "traditional way of life" would need to be destroyed. They need to be shown by daily example that they are inferior and that their culture is inferior, until they internalize it. We did ourselves no favour in aligning with the Saudi royalty in the interest of "stability." The Saudi royals are merely one of the richest and most publicly prominent of the sorts of extended kinship group that's the problem. Moreover, the Saudi royals use their "stable" position to promote the theology of Salafism throughout the region. Salafism proposes that the Bedouin society of the Prophet Muhammad and his extended family represents a sacred model for all ages. In that society, extended kinship groups of the sorts that cause the problems today figured prominently. Salafism gives them sacred status. Civilizing the region would require that these extended kinship groups and their associated power structures be forcibly eradicated, and that people there understand that any attempt to revive them will be callously answered with lethal force. Unfortunately, after so many decades of anti-colonialist piety, the civilized world lacks the will to do it. Even the semi-civilized United States lacks the will to do it.
--
"Complecti antecessores tuos in spelćis stygiis Tartari appara," eructavit miles primus.
"Vix dum basiavisti vicarium velocem Mortis," rediit G
ask yourself a question: (2.00 / 2) (#120)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 05:46:52 PM EST

how did europe or japan escape these very same backwards rural modes of life? the answer is simple: any society is a competition of ideas. ideas that encourage survival, and ideas that hasten failure. within this competition of ideas, the superior concepts about how to live come to predominate

but this predisposes that only ones ideas cause you to arrive or fall. what if an alien society came in and vastly rewarded you and your ideas for a completely arbitrary factor: that you sit on a giant pool of oil. then there is no pressure to adapt new ideas to survive. and so your bad, malignant, counterproductive ideas are artificially sustained

this is the problem with the middle east. if the world can escape its reliance on oil, then those who live in the middle east will be forced to rise or fall based on the strength of their society's structure, and will be forced to adapt modern ideas, or fall into obscurity and poverty

so the question to how does the west best help the middle east become a peaceful place is simple: stop using oil

of course, this is incredibly difficult and will take a long time. but getting off oil is clearly the solution to our problems


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Problem with the "brain drain" tactic... (none / 1) (#136)
by Psycho Dave on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 03:38:31 PM EST

Is that it doesn't work.

Look at our problem with illegal immigration from Mexico. Seeing as the only real solution to this problem is for Mexico to raise it's standard of living and get rid of corruption, how does it help that the citizens most likely to make change in there are leaving in droves to work here? With the steady flow of illegal immigrants over the decades, Mexico ought to be in a place where it must adapt or lose it's place in the world. I don't see the government of Mexico collapsing or reforming any time soon.

Same for the Middle East. Most of the muslims with progressive values (and many who don't) seem to make their way to the western world to enjoy the freedoms we have here. The one's left behind are in more desperate circumstances, have less education, and are come under control of the more radical religious types.

That is not a mixture primed to start a revolution in the Middle East. It would be the same if everyone who was disgusted with Bush left to live in Canada (like we always threaten to). It would leave the country to the mouth breathing "heartland" types and everyone would be forced to own a Hummer with a gun rack in it.

[ Parent ]

that's true, but doesn't nullify my point (none / 0) (#233)
by circletimessquare on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:17:04 AM EST

there is a dysfunctional regime that impoverishes its people, and then there is a dysfunctional regime, hopped up on petrodollars, exporting its dysfunction to the world

reference hugo chavez


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Surprise: another Al Qaeda assassination (none / 1) (#126)
by nostalgiphile on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:34:46 PM EST

had a phone tap on them.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
about as surprising as finding out my shit stinks$ (none / 0) (#127)
by circletimessquare on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:35:38 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
it does? funny, mine doesn't... $ (none / 1) (#130)
by nostalgiphile on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 07:20:28 AM EST



"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
[ Parent ]
Much as Pakistan has had its own problems (2.25 / 4) (#129)
by Wen Jian on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 05:25:06 AM EST

I can't help but wonder how the overly-simplistic approach to the 'war on terror' has worsened and complicated problems there. It was once the case that, though politically unstable, Pakistan's internal difficulties were mainly focussed upon differenced in attitude to the civil political structure, and corruption was the main reason cited whenever the mainly secularly-organised army took power away from the mainly-secularly organised politicians. However, since the War on Terror (part I), there have been big changes to the quality of the civil unrest in Pakistan.

Firstly there has been an influx of religious extremists from Afghanistan, making marginal regions of Pakistan yet more marginal as they come under the influence of Muhajudeen war heroes, and not only through the common ground they share with these outlying peple, but also through force and intimidation changing the focus of what is preached in the mosques and taught in the Madrassas. Abu Hamsa effected similar changes in London when he preached, with only a handful of thuggish supporters.

Secondly, the decision of the Pakistani Government to support the US in the War on Terror has alienated and radicalised segments of their population as well and legitimising their targetting by those sections of society that were already radicalised. Unfortunately the America issue provides common ground for those with economic or cultural grievance against the US (which are legitimate grievances) and those with a religious nuttery axe to grind. This provides a wedge that the latter can drive into the former, and a certain proportion of those people who are subject to such treatment (mainly young men) will fall to the dark side.

As for Bhutto, I think it is very sad, regardless of the woman herself, that extremists have found it so easy to silence moderate politics and self-determination. I have to admit though, that I wonder what she expected to happen. Perhaps she too was bitten by the Martyr Bug.
It was an experiment in lulz. - Rusty

how does that work in your mind (none / 1) (#133)
by circletimessquare on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 01:19:15 PM EST

that a force born of nonwestern ideology is somehow the fault of the west

you are kind of like the guy who blames the rape on the woman wearing the short dress

certainly, the short dress had something to do with raising the libido of the rapist, right?

therefore, all of the blame should be placed squarely on the woman in the short dress

look at your words above. that's the meaning of the way you think

completely ignoring, excusing, and denying that the actual fuckign RAPIST deserves any blame!

moron: i live in a strange wacky world where THE FUCKING ASSHOLE DOING THE FUCKING CRIME IS THE FUCKING PROBLEM

i know, i'm a crazy guy huh? i obviously must be gw bush dick sucking neocon to think like that, it's the only way, right?

people who think like you, that something like al qaeda is the fault of the west, you absolutely blow my mind

your entire way of thinking is an incredible exercise in willfully suspending your ability to perceive reality

you perplex and disgust me


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

The British Empire was wearing a short skirt... (2.57 / 7) (#143)
by Wen Jian on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 05:55:17 AM EST

Islamic terrorism has its roots in British colonialism

Sorry guys.

Incidentally, I may have access to a fuller report on this subject. I'll ask if I'm allowed it.

Anway, what I meant to say was that it never fails to amaze me that those who bang on about freedom of speech and western liberal values are the least capable of coping with the natural consequences of these attributes of Western society. I am repulsed by your jingoistic view and blind denunciation of others, and yet I attempted to engage in discourse according to the model of 'free expression' which you hold in such high esteem.

Was my attempt met with adult debate or rebuttal? Indeed not - for you were incapable of tolerating the presence of an opposing view. Did you then refute the points or theme I presented? No, you immediately embarked on a voyage of virtually slanderous reductio ad absurdum and bilious insults, which were as violent as they were utterly incoherent.

This reveals as much a lack of faith in your own opinion and capacity to withstand debate as it does a lack of imagination, as well as a paucity of the very qualities which you presume to hold in such high esteem as a citizen of the Western world. It is indeed a tragic reflection of the West that you are a product of it, and you do your opinions no favours when you resort to such childish and idiotic outbusts in the place of reasoned debate.

Now, I'm sure that you will find yourself in good company among the sillier American denizens of this site - but you are wasting your time by attempting to present your opinions as factual or reasoned. Your response to the threat of debate makes it clear that you are incapable of defending your position by rational means, and that you whistled for a cab and when it came near
The license plate said fresh and it had dice in the mirror
If anything I can say this cab is rare
But I thought 'Now forget it' - 'Yo homes to Bel Air'

I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8
And I yelled to the cabbie 'Yo homes smell ya later'
I looked at my kingdom
I was finally there
To sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air

It was an experiment in lulz. - Rusty
[ Parent ]

this kind of thinking amazes me, really floors me (none / 0) (#152)
by circletimessquare on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 09:26:41 PM EST

it makes my jaw drop out

just trying to parse your thoughts makes a ringing noise in my head of cognitive dissonance

it is this extreme ethnocentrism that thinks that an ideology born of people and ideas in a particular area... is actually the cause of something the west did

incredible!

it is the most blindly ethnocentric, patronizing way of thinking in the world

it just blows my mind that there are people out there, like you, who can't concieve of ideology and ideas flowing from anywhere... except the west

it is a very bizarre, very real form of racism


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

How do I made jaw drop? (none / 1) (#163)
by Wen Jian on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:57:56 AM EST


It was an experiment in lulz. - Rusty
[ Parent ]
You /are/ being racist. (none / 1) (#169)
by wiredog on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 11:11:15 AM EST


The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.
Phage
[ Parent ]

Rascist? IMMA CHARGIN MAH LAZOR!!!!!!!! (none / 0) (#178)
by Wen Jian on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:51:35 AM EST

SHOOP DA WOOP!
It was an experiment in lulz. - Rusty
[ Parent ]
Yes, it must be truly amazing (none / 1) (#240)
by cburke on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 03:27:49 PM EST

if you don't believe in cause in effect, and have no  knowledge of any relevant causes, and only the tiniest inkling of effects.

How could some aspect of Culture A have possibly been the fault of Culture B?  Well logic would immediately suggest some kind of interference in Culture A on the part of Culture B.  History would provide ample examples of how this actually works in reality -- including relevant facts involving the particular case under discussion.

But in lieu of that, when all one has are base principles in a vacuum of knowledge, then I'm sure it's amazing, indeed jaw-dropping.

Even the best principles paired with insufficient or incorrect facts will result in the wrong conclusion.  Your principles are passable, but completely divorced from facts and thus nearly universally result in the wrong conclusion.

Of course you're only rebuttle will be to build a strawman, and claim I'm blaming all of the Muslim world's problems on the West.

This is however just another symptom of you lacking the necessary knowledge to be able to distinguish which effects stem from Western causes, and which do not.  Your knowledge-free principles allow no nuanced differentiation.  Unfortunately for you the real world is all about nuance, which is why understanding eludes you, and action based on this lack of understanding results in failure.

[ Parent ]

so (none / 1) (#241)
by circletimessquare on Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 09:21:28 PM EST

hatred of jews is the fault of something the jews did

hatred of blacks is the fault of something the blacks did

go ahead, talk to someone who hates jews or blacks. they have a huge list of grievances of the horrible things blacks and are jews are doing to them

hated of the west, of course, is because of the west

incredible!

hatred, in my book, is an original sin. if you have been reduced to a blathering hate-filled peice fo shit who murders innocents, YOU are responsible for that, no one else

here: if we were to apply your logic evenly, then the invasion of iraq is perfectly understandable: 9/11 was done by people from the middle east, therefore the usa has the right to carpet bomb the entire area, rape arab women, kill arab children etc.

i don't believe that. but that is the exact mirror image inverse of the bullshit you are trying to sell to me about the behavior of islamofascists

hey, you're the one trying to explain to me why unbridled violence, based on an ideology emanating from the middle east directed at the west, is the fault of the west

you know, cultures interfering and all

fucking insane

you're ethnocentric. you can't understand the idea of original sin emanating from some place other than the west. in your mind, it is impossible for anyone except someone from the west being ultimately responsible for something somewhere

this thining of yours is actually patronizing and condescending, because in your mind, only the west is the parent, and all other cultures are like children: merely reflections of daddy's actions


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

See? Exactly like I said. (none / 1) (#242)
by cburke on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:43:44 PM EST

Your argument is exactly the one I said you would make.  Only the exaggerated strawman you create is even more ludicrous in it's fallacious and a-factual treatment of everything being the same.

I fully expected you to incorrectly represent my position as equating all Muslim problems with those problems caused by the West, but you took it another step to actually equate all hatred, ever!  As if there is never any difference in circumstances, as if the causes and effects are the same!  But no, to you southern U.S. whites hating blacks is exactly the same as a Macedonian hating the Romans.

Because, as I keep saying, you're simply too stupid and too ignorant to possibly be able to distinguish the differences between these cases, to have any inkling as to the actual whys.    Not knowing about cause and effect, all hate is just an evil magic that springs from nowhere to you.  Thus you can't actually have a rational basis knowing for which problems are caused by the west, which problems are "home-grown" problems in the Muslim world, and which problems are caused by interference by non-Muslim non-Western cultures (a category you conspicuously ignore entirely, probably because that would be three things).

Your idiotic ignorance is perfectly exemplified when you say "my logic" would equate the people who executed 9/11 to the people of Iraq because they're all Middle Eastern.

But that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying, I'm saying that you must look at the specifics, not the generalities, because it is specific causes that end up with specific effects, and once you gain this nuanced view you realize that some problems can be due to Western interference, and others not.

However the essence of nuance is knowledge.  Knowledge you not only don't have, you consciously avoid because it conflicts with your view that principles can trump reality.  Thusly you CAN'T view the situation with nuance, you MUST view either all Muslim problems as being caused by the West, or not being caused by the West.  While "the West" is itself a generalization that lacks nuance, but again actually distinguishing is beyond you.

This is why you end up with such idiotic false dichotomies, such as that the only two possible relationships are either parent/child with the parent completely defining the child, or two complete strangers who do not influence each other in any way and any anger springing from nowhere.  Even the most simple person would realize that this does not capture reality, that people can in fact induce some behaviors in others, while not causing other behaviors of those same people.

It's quite understandable that given the choices of "'The West' caused all Muslim problems" or "'The West' caused none" you choose the way you do.  Just that's not the choice that's being presented to you, you only turn it into that because your brain just can't handle a more sophisticated distinction.

Before I praised your principles while criticizing you for applying them in a void of knowledge.

Sadly, your true principles seem to be to reduce every problem to an idiotic false dichotomy devoid of any possible nuance, and to force everyone via a completely contrived strawman to conform to one of your two arbitrary choices.

Which is exactly the kind of thinking that led to "you're either for us or against us", or to reducing the Iraqi conflict to being between Coalition forces and "Terrorists".  And thus to think that the problem was simple enough that they didn't have to actually KNOW anything about the specifics -- specifics that would have shown their false dichotomies to be obviously wrong.  I.e. idiot policies that failed to represent reality, and thus failed in practice.

But please, continue to ignore reality because it doesn't fit into your silly false dichotomies.  Please continue to believe that everything is either the fault of "the west" or not at all.  Please ignore cause-and-effect because it requires nuance to understand, even though it's the only thing that has been proven to allow us to understand anything for sure.

I eagerly anticipate your next false-dichotomy driven strawman about how I'm blaming everything on the West.  Prove how little you understand nuance, and cause and effect.  I know you will.

[ Parent ]

tldr (none / 1) (#243)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:49:01 PM EST

so you think that the usa is fully justified to carpet bomb the middle east due to 9/11?

that's the conclusion of your way of thinking

or is unbridled uncontrolled hatred only expected of brown people?

you racist

this is the way you think- the west: permanently responsible. the middle east: permanent child

that's your thinking. that's how you perceive the world

it's soft racism. it's condescending and patronizing to those in the middle east

meanwhile, my thinking says that those in the middle east are equal in rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES to those in the west, to be held to the same standards of behavior

so when a middle easterner suicide bombs, we cry high holy indignation at the asshole and the islamofascism that encouraged that. they are responsible. we don't create creative lines of reasoning that finds the west ultimately responsible for that bullshit

a middle easterner is equal is rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES as a westerner

that's my way of thinking

i'm such a fascist that way


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

How predictable, how extremist (none / 1) (#244)
by cburke on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:17:06 PM EST

so you think that the usa is fully justified to carpet bomb the middle east due to 9/11?

or is unbridled uncontrolled hatred only expected of brown people?

No more than it is expected of the Irish, the Scottish, the Macedonians, and so on and so on and so on.

But of course you're the one saying that Muslim hatred has absolutely no external cause.  

this is the way you think- the west: permanently responsible. the middle east: permanent child

The ONLY reason that you think that is because I don't think how you think - the west: permanently innocent.  the middle east: permanently culpable.

See?  Once again, exactly as predicted, you can do nothing but create a strawman based on a false dichotomy.  You are mentally incapable of understanding a nuanced argument.  You create a choice that consists of two extremes, and then force everyone to pick one even if it is obvious that neither choice in fact applies.

After all, we are bombing Middle Eastern countries, are we not?  And one of those countries we were certainly angry at, were we not?  Would you posit that this anger is our fault?  Or would you admit the rather obvious fact that this was an effect that stemmed from the cause of Muslim terrorists attacking us?

I'll assume you can at least comprehend that much cause-and-effect, but when it's the other way suddenly there's no such thing?  Can be no such thing?  That it's actually racist to imply that other people might be affected by our actions, like that makes them a parent?  You're the racist, thinking that only the West acts with any cause, and the "brown people" are the crazies who hate and kill for absolutely no reason.

Because that's literally what you're saying -- you're saying there are only two choices, either it's all our fault, or it's all their fault.  And you've made it clear that you don't think it's all our fault.

Neither do I, but of course I also don't agree with you, and to understand that you'd have to understand nuance, and thus have actual knowledge.  Instead, you have a viewpoint that is so divorced from anything resembling reality that it boggles the mind how you could be so thick.

I mean you are literally saying that the only choices are parent/child, or completely independent with no influence over each other.  If that's literally the limit of your experience with human and political relationships, then you really are as ignorant and stupid and sheltered as you appear to be.  Even a retard -- a literal retard -- can understand that some of their behavior can be caused by others actions, some caused by completely different people's actions, and some that is completely their own choice.  But you aren't even that bright.

And the sad part is that this has resulted in you being an extremist.  You are an extremist who only believes in two views:  Either the problems of the Middle East are entirely the fault of the West in every way (clearly not true!), or the Middle East is completely culpable for all of their own problems, and thus there's no action that we can take other than violence (the correct choice by default, since there can be only two options).

That's pretty much the definition of extremism.  And it's driving out the moderates.  

A moderate is someone capable of nuance.  A moderate is someone who is capable of understanding that it is possible for both someone to have created a bad situation through their interference, and for those in that situation to make it worse through their own actions.  

An extremist is someone who believes there are only two options -- they are 100% right, or 100% wrong.  And thus they hear the moderate say that they are not 100% right, and immediately the extremist assumes they agree 100% with the other side.  Thus the surest sign of a moderate is when extremists of both stripes claim the moderate is a force for the opposing group of extremist.  

This describes our conversation perfectly.

A real world example of this is Palestinian President Abbas, widely recognized as a moderate.  He believes that Israel is in part culpable for the violence, and that Palestine is as well.  He believes that peace can only be achieved if both sides admit their wrongdoing and stop pretending that they are only defending themselves from baseless agression.  Then, predictably, extremists on both sides don't like him.  Israeli extremists in the Likud refuse to admit any culpability, and refuse to stop attacking until the other side stops first.  Hamas extremists refuse to admit that they have any culpability, and refuse to stop attacking until the other side does first.

The result?  Abbas was pushed aside and the extremists on both side, but especially Hamas, were empowered.  Since neither could recognize that the middle ground was different than the opposite extreme, opposite extremes were left as the only options.

This is exactly what you are doing.  You are an extremist.  You will only empower extremism, and cause your worst extremist nightmares to come to pass.

Here I am presenting a reasonable, moderate, and most importantly historically factual opinion that Western interference has caused many problems in the Middle East and spurred extremism, and that many internal factors have led to extremism across much of the Middle East, and that interference by non-Western outside forces has similarly created strife and thus the seeds of extremism.

But you are only mentally capable of absorbing one part, the part about the West, and then assume that means I'm saying it's all the West's fault, which is contrary to your extremist view that the West has no hand in it at all, and thus I must be the opposite kind of extremist who blames it all on the U.S.

Whatever, you crazy extremist.  You are stupid, you are ignorant, you are incapable of nuance, and thus you are incapable of understanding.  Your views cannot and will not do anything but spur other extremists, and push moderates to the side.  Your views cannot do anything but FAIL to accomplish your goals, because your views ignore reality because reality doesn't fit into some stupid false dichotomy.  You don't even believe in cause and effect because it doesn't fit in your black/white world.

You have done exactly what I said you would do -- prove you are incapable of nuance, and incapable of viewing the world as anything but a false dichotomy.  Well guess what?  The world doesn't work that way.  That's why anyone who tries to take action based on your crazy, stupid, ignorant extremist views FAILS.

Only you are surprised.  Because extremists think they can make the world work how they want by refusing to admit it doesn't.  Only an extremist thinks that this is a replacement for knowing things.

Whatever, extremist.  Now form another false dichotomy and straw man that you can rail against as being an extremist of the opposite stripe.  It just proves my point.

[ Parent ]

dude!; TOO LONG DIDN'T READ (none / 1) (#245)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:06:11 PM EST

if you go to china, you find chinese who think china is the center of the world, the chinese can do no wrong, all other peoples are fucked up

if you go to india, you find indians who think india is the center of the world, the indians can do no wrong, all other peoples are fucked up

if you go to russia, you find russians who think russia is the center of the world, the russians can do no wrong, all other peoples are fucked up

etc., etc.

it's called ehtnocentrism. understand the concept genius? in wwii, it motivated german nazis, certain of german superiority. it motivated japanese nationalists, certain of japanese superiority

and what is the fault of ethnocentrism? were the chinese who were raped the ones who created japanese ethnocentrism? were the jews who were murdered responsible for german ethnocentrism?

actually, if you went to a japanese nationalist in 1935 or a german nazi in 1935, the answer would be yes!

so when some middle eastern asshole kills innocents, motivated by fascist pride in religion and race, trying to rebirth the caliphate, insisting that it is the west who forces him to do these atrocities, YOU ARE LOOKING AT AN ETHNOCENTRIC FUCK WHO IS RESPONSIBLE, ALONE, FOR THE EVIL HE DOES

solid fucking fact

if you honestly believe that what an islamofascist does is in ANY way the fault of the west, i would love to hear you lecture me on why it is the woman wearing the short skirt who is at fault for getting raped

same. fucking. moronic. thinking

you simply don't understand what accountability and responsibility means in this world


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Short version: You == stupid extremist hypocrite (none / 1) (#246)
by cburke on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:40:20 PM EST

And you're exactly like the jingoistic idiots who think their own country can do no wrong, and anyone who hates their country is irrational.  You are the very ethnocentrist you are trying to label others as, you flaming hypocrite.

Here's a great example:

and what is the fault of ethnocentrism? were the chinese who were raped the ones who created japanese ethnocentrism? were the jews who were murdered responsible for german ethnocentrism?

And were the Chinese who hated the Japanese after WWII the fault of Japanese ethnocentrism?  OH RIGHT THEY WERE.  Were the Koreans who performed acts of violence on Japanese in Korea after WWII the result of Japanese actions?  OH RIGHT THEY WERE.  Are all the Americans who came to hate the Muslims in the last 6 years the fault of the 9/11 terrorists?  OH YEAH THEY WERE!

If you honestly believe there is no islamofascist who is what he is as a result of Western action -- as in, a terrorist who would not have been a terrorist otherwise -- then you are admitting to being completely, 100%, DELIBERATELY ignorant of the situation that you claim to care so much about.

i would love to hear you lecture me on why it is the woman wearing the short skirt who is at fault for getting raped

All your pathetic mewling is from the point of view of the victim not being responsible for their attacker's actions.  Well guess what?  In some cases, the West has been the attacker!

And I'd love to hear your lecture on how a woman who has been raped, and then goes on to have PTSD, had nothing to do with the rapist.  Because of course nobody's mental problems can have anything to do with any outside factors!  That's your whole point!

I'd love to hear your lecture on how a child molester's actions have NOTHING to do with they themselves being molested as a child, EVEN THOUGH EVERY FACT ON THE EARTH SAYS THE OPPOSITE.

If you were actually being consistent about your bullshit instead of a racist ethnocentrist, it would mean you think that the invasion of Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11.  You don't think that, you're just an ignorant idiot hypocrite.

And an extremist.  Good job promoting extremism, idiot.

[ Parent ]

what is the foundation of justice? (none / 0) (#247)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 07:19:49 PM EST

it is to punish those reponsible for crimes

most importantly, it is to blame the right people for those crimes, and to make the punishment less harsh than the crime

if the punishment is worse than the crime, then there is no justice. for example, sharia law is not justice: chopping hands off for stealing, execution for prostitution: in such a society, the system of justice itself is the crime

given this realization, then when someone replies to americans doing various crimes: go ahead, list the vast horrible crimes of americans in the middle east. every single crime, real and imagined, stack it up, and reply it with the purposeful murder of innocents... this is justice? no, it means nothing than you yourself are a worse problem than whatever the americans ever did

so if you look at islamofascists, and all of their various crimes, and conclude that it is the americans driving this... to not even think of the motivations of the people blowing up innocents (innocent muslims usually, btw, are the ones blown up... but in your moronic logic, when islamofascists kill innocent muslims, this is by extension another crime of the americans!), you simply don't even have justice as your prime motivation

what is the solution to the problems in the middle east?

the solution is to find middle easterns reponsible and accountable for what they do. but to continue to think of them as perpetual victims, even as they are the ones committing the greatest crimes, then paradoxically it is YOUR thinking that sucks the west deeper and deeper into the middle east

because by your ethnocentric thinking, only the west is responsible for what happens there

what kind of bizarre idiocy finds a party completely responsible for a crime, and as a solution to that crime, that they aren't responsible for fixing the problem they created!?

what kind of thinking finds the west responsible for everything... but they shouldn't fix the problem?

no: by your logic, the americans should be in the middle east forever

after all, everyhting is there fault, right?

incredible


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Extremists always talk about "justice" (3.00 / 2) (#248)
by cburke on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 07:50:05 PM EST

every single crime, real and imagined, stack it up, and reply it with the purposeful murder of innocents... this is justice?

You think the U.S. has never been involved in the purposeful murder of innocents in the Middle East?  You are really ignorant.  Sad, really.  But hey, most nationalism relies on ignorance.

Anyway, I reject your moral calculus that as long as the "stack" of sins on one side is lesser than the "stack" of sins on the other, then that's justice.  That's not justice, because there's no judge here (though you probably think of yourself as a judge, you arrogant ethnocentric hypocrite).  That's a criminal trying to justify their crimes using accounting tricks.

because by your ethnocentric thinking, only the west is responsible for what happens there

No, you complete buffoon.  For the last time.  Just because YOU think the west isn't responsible AT ALL, does NOT mean that I must automatically think the West is SOLELY responsible.  That isn't even close to what I think.

This is exactly the false dichotomy that I'm trying to tell you is retarded, ruins your ability to reason, and makes you nothing but an extremist.

An extremist lacks the ability to see anything but the two extremes.  You continue to fail to comprehend the simple fact that I do not think the West is responsible for everything, because you are an extremist, and proving it more and more with every word.

what kind of thinking finds the west responsible for everything... but they shouldn't fix the problem?

Your idea of how to "fix" the problem is completely retarded and counter-productive, because you don't understand the first fucking thing about the actual facts of the situation.  You know nothing but platitudes, and absolutes, and you seriously think these can substitute for knowledge or cause and effect.  You are no better than the Jihadists who can think of no better solution than the wage war on the West.

You're just part of the "political wing" of your form of extremism, lacking the guts to take action yourself but approving of the violence.  If you were born in Palestine, you'd be a member of Hamas (or just a sympathizer), arguing that it can't be possible for Palestine to be even remotely in any way responsible for the Israeli oppression.

But as usual, you have nothing better than a false dichotomy:  Do nothing, or do something violent and stupid.  

It's just another sign of your extremism.

[ Parent ]

i'm the extremist (none / 1) (#249)
by circletimessquare on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 08:04:58 PM EST

when your point of view is you reply an eye for a face, a tooth for a jaw

and this kind of activity by middle easterners is supposed to be completely understandable

pray tell, what is the state of a world where someone is allowed to commit truly evil crimes on purpose... because the usa gave a weapon to some guy they knew once in the cold war, who a lot of other people did deals with, who then did something truly evil, that the usa in turn condemned

oh I'M sorry, i'm not reading the proper propaganda script, forgive me!

what i meant to say was because americans drink oil from dead iraqi children's skulls and chortle with happiness!

there, that's better

dude: when someone in the middle east murders in the name of a fascist take on an old proud religion, that person in the middle east is 100% solely reponsible

just like the usa is reponsible for every crime they ever did

right?

if the usa invades iraq, the usa is 100% reponsible. NOT a middle easterner because of 9/11. that's how responsibility works you moron!

if some asshole suicide bombs a market (killing all muslims btw) then islamofascism is responsible. NOT the usa. That's how responsibility works!

not that because the usa committed a crime once, we can therefore draw a convoluted creative line of reasoning that explains and condones truly evil behavior, by someone who isn't even motivated by the usa!

incredible

let's put it this way: the usa disappears into a vast lake of lava tomorrow. every single american on the face of the earth disappears into a puff of smoke

now what?

do the islamofascists celebrate and become pastroal sheep farmers?

no, they go right on with their murderous agenda you retard! ecause the heart of their agenda, you moron, is not righting the kyoto protocol, or avenging che guevara, it's an agenda ALL OF THEIR ORIGINAL MAKING. that the usa is an enemy of this fascist agenda DOESN'T MEAN THE USA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT

like that raped chick isn't responsible for being raped, right?

or do you actually swallow the propaganda of religious fanatics?

apparently you do

you're fucking incredible

accountability, responsibility

what do those words mean motherfucker?

because from where i am sitting, it seems that in your mind those concepts work like magic above the rio grande, north of the straights of bosporus and the straights of gibraltar

but south of those points, and suddenly, responsibility and accountability don't exist at all

that's your point of view

and your point of view is therefore patronizing, condescending racism. your point of view is none other than: west=daddy, middle east=children

incredible patronizing, condescending, and racist

MY point of view says: middle easterner=westerner completely, 100%

in rights

AND RESPONSIBILITIES

and thorugh THAT kind of thinking, do we eventually find peace in the middle east

through your thinking, we find nothing but recrimination after recrimination, a continuning and accelerating cycle of violence

because you, YOU, in your thinking, finds truly evil acts ACCEPTABLE and the fault of the victims of those acts!

amazing!


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

next step, of course... (3.00 / 2) (#146)
by Delirium on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 06:12:55 PM EST

...is that they're going to dynastically appoint her son, who's barely ever actually lived in Pakistan, as the new head of the party. Truly a democratic example to us all.

and he's committed to democracy (none / 0) (#155)
by circletimessquare on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 09:35:28 PM EST

political family dynasties exist in all democracies

myself, i don't like them either

but considering the options, it's like picking between a rattlesnake, a tarantula, and a bunny with bad breath

hardly a problem on par with the other contendors for pakistan


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

A bunny wth bad breath (none / 1) (#157)
by fn0rd on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 12:00:20 AM EST

amidst a pit of vipers. Oh, and he has to keep nukes away from them. Nice.

This fatwa brought to you by the Agnostic Jihad
[ Parent ]

you've described a bad situation (none / 0) (#158)
by circletimessquare on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 03:26:52 AM EST

now is your time to realize all other options are worse


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
but how is he a good option (none / 0) (#159)
by Delirium on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 03:46:04 AM EST

He lives in Dubai and his only qualification for pursuing a political position in Pakistan is "my mom had one once".

[ Parent ]
duh (none / 0) (#160)
by circletimessquare on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 04:16:43 AM EST

now compare to:

  1. musharaff
  2. al qaeda

he sucks. he's also better than the other options

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
He's far too young (none / 0) (#168)
by nebbish on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:37:08 AM EST

And too removed from Pakistan though. Surely there are other candidates in the party?

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee
[ Parent ]

well yes (none / 1) (#170)
by circletimessquare on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 11:33:20 AM EST

the idea being he's the best of the larger rough choices: theocracy, military dictatorship, democracy

within the democracy choice he represents, there are a range of older wiser candidates


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Serbia ain't sorted yet (none / 1) (#166)
by nebbish on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:32:24 AM EST

They've still get time to cause WWIII as well.

I think it's a little early to making such judgements about Bhutto's assassination, though you could well be right. The complexities of Pakistan's internal politics could equally have a roll to play here - the Pakistani government may be the ones responsible, and they are by no means an Islamist party.

Anyway, we'll see.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

Oh and by the way (none / 0) (#167)
by nebbish on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:32:49 AM EST

You made the Reddit front page :)

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

coolio nt (none / 0) (#171)
by circletimessquare on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 12:13:21 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I saw this while (none / 1) (#183)
by levesque on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 05:33:09 PM EST

Round square

visiting the school where my sister teaches

[ Parent ]

It is not clear... (none / 0) (#191)
by geoswan on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:48:46 AM EST

It is not clear to me why you drew this to our attention.

[ Parent ]
Our ? (none / 0) (#201)
by levesque on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 07:14:44 PM EST

Imagine all the people...
hummm hum hummmm humm hummmmm...

[ Parent ]
Hey CTS - have you seen this? (none / 1) (#196)
by postDigital on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 04:00:40 AM EST

Interesting news Report I picked-off Youtube



ahahahahah (none / 1) (#228)
by vivelame on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 06:39:00 AM EST

pwnd.

Oh and, how is this 'OMGTEHIRANIANSWILLKILLUSALL!!!!1111!ONE' going?

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."

hey bitch (none / 1) (#235)
by circletimessquare on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:24:26 AM EST

who told you to talk?

keep sucking


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

So Bhutto is murdered. What's the next stop on the train to Hell? | 249 comments (226 topical, 23 editorial, 1 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!