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[P]
Russia did the right thing in Georgia

By sausalito in Politics
Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 06:29:43 PM EST
Tags: armchair political scientist, politics, war, incompetent, pontificating nullo (all tags)
Politics

So the first analyses of the Russia-Georgia tussle over South Ossetia are being published.

Don't be fooled by the Western - especially French and German - media consensus (for example, this article on the ever dumb Times screaming OMG Russian invasion!): this time the Guardian's view that this was a Georgian aggressive gamble is absolutely correct.

According to almost all independent reporters, the operations were kickstarted by the Georgians launching a massive co-ordinated attack that started with artillery shelling and aerial bombing of the independentist militias positions around Tskhinvali at 1:50 of Friday morning, a few hours after cease-fire talks had broken down (see this excellent timeline of the events - in French). Before that there had been only a few weeks of minor border skirmishes. You don't start such an operation without weeks of planning, do you?


At the start of the hostilities it looks like there was only a limited (around 1,000-strong) garrison of Russian "peacekeepers" in Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital and focus of the fighting. After the shelling subsided and the Georgian Army started the land stage of its offensive, there have been a few hours when the garrison risked being overrun (the Georgians jumped the gun slightly and announced to have quickly taken the capital, but that was not true and had to comically backpedal as it became clear they only besieged it). Russia had to intervene if it wanted to save its troops and avoid a major internal embarrassment.

So Georgia tried to catch Russia with its pants down and nab Tskhinvali while prime minister Putin was in Beijing for the opening ceremony of the Olympics and decisions depended on the newly-elected president Dmitri Medvedev, widely viewed as a weak Putin sockpuppet.

The Russian land counter-attack is being spearheaded by the 76th Airborne division (official name "76th Guards Chernigov Airborne Division"), which had been stationing in Northern Ossetia for some military exercises since mid-July (in reality it probably was there "just in case" - it's one of the few fully-professional divisions in the Russian Army and one of the most highly regarded ones).

Now airborne troops are highly-mobile and usually are the first to be committed to an attack to secure strategic targets (see D-Day and a bazillion other operations), they don't arrive days after combat started. It was clearly a stop-gap measure, waiting for the slower troops to roll in (it is happening now: regular troops are bolstering the counter-attack while paramilitaries will soon start the dirty job of mopping up any residual resistance by searching basement after basement and shooting whoever they find in there, including a good number of ethnic Georgians, one can safely assume). I think the tanks you see on television are just now crossing the border, they were not the ones that did the frontline fighting. There were hardly any in South Ossetia at the start of the escalation.

Also, look at who has got most to gain from an escalation: South Ossetia is already basically independent and allied with the Kremlin (there is even a funny independent government made up of ex-KGB operatives - by the way, Le Monde is another paper espousing pro-Georgia opinions), so there was nothing for Russia to gain in engaging the Georgian Army there. The majority of the inhabitants are ethnic Ossetians, who speak and write a language that is different from Georgian, have a long history of co-operating with Moscow and hold Russian passports. Also, Northern Ossetia is an official part of the CIS.

So the accusations of "attempted ethnic cleansing" by Russia's Interior Minister against Georgia are just an exaggeration at this stage, not a complete lie. Probably, by escalating the conflict Georgia was hoping to displace these people to Russia, where in any case they can travel to and work in, and leverage on ethnic Georgians to re-instate control on the breakaway province.

Georgia wanted to test Russia's mettle and now got more than it bargained for. The bombing of an air base just outside of Tblisi was a political signal saying that Russia considers the conflict as an all-out war. This was promptly understood by Abkhazia, which is starting its own little insurgency against Georgia.

What will happen next? Well, Georgia's air force has been crippled by the attacks on air bases, its largest port has been trashed, so really it is over for them. I believe they miscalculated and will lose Abkhazia, too.

The insane Georgian president is rumoured to be mulling over a call to arms for 100,000 reservists. What these reservists are going to fight with other than sticks and stones is not known. He will not do that, or he'll be president of a mound of smouldering ashes by next week. Now the UN and the US will intervene. There will be a cease-fire which the Russians will accept only once they have consolidated their positions and gained control over all their strategic objectives.

But looking at the long term it is clear that Georgia has shot itself in the foot. Now Russia has an excuse to have a large military presence in South Ossetia. More importantly, Georgia was courting NATO and a month ago the Minister for Territorial Integration (euphemism for Ministry for Kicking the Ossetians Bums out of Georgia) Yakobashvili said "that this [territorial conflict] was an European problem".

Yeah right, after the mess you irresponsibly made the EU and NATO will be very interested to have you as partner.

[edited at 22:00 CET, 9th August: The Exiled Online published an interesting article detailing the background of the US interests in Georgia (oil pipelines and all) as well as the PR campaign Georgia engaged in to gain the support of the US even in the face of its aggressive strategy]

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Related Links
o OMG Russian invasion!
o the Guardian's view that this was a Georgian aggressive gamble
o timeline of the events
o quickly taken the capital
o backpedal
o 76th Airborne division
o in Northern Ossetia for some military exercises since mid-July
o happening now
o independen t government made up of ex-KGB operatives
o "attempted ethnic cleansing"
o air base just outside of Tblisi
o own little insurgency against Georgia.
o largest port has been trashed
o interestin g article detailing the background of the US interests in Georgia (oil pipelines and all)
o Also by sausalito


Display: Sort:
Russia did the right thing in Georgia | 229 comments (197 topical, 32 editorial, 1 hidden)
'Did the right thing' (3.00 / 3) (#5)
by lostincali on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 11:51:13 AM EST

I say that I agree with you, old boy, that slaughtering thousands of civilians was the right thing to do.

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."

I am not a complete Enlightenment man myself (none / 1) (#7)
by sausalito on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:03:07 PM EST

Human rights are good and all that, but there are circumstances when doing the right thing implies war, and modern war (since the Second World War, at least) means mostly killing civilians.

If Russia gave a signal of weakness, who knows how many midget would-be rebel provinces would try to do the same? How many civilians would die in that scenario?

In any case, most of the civilian deads were caused by Georgians shelling.

_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

See? We agree. (3.00 / 2) (#10)
by lostincali on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:36:28 PM EST

Slaughtering civilians is righteous.

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

On reflection... (3.00 / 1) (#29)
by lostincali on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 02:55:11 PM EST

...this is probably a stupid point for me to make.

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

separatist provinces (none / 0) (#76)
by cicero on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:30:09 AM EST

so you're saying that not showing weakness in the face of separatist rebel provinces is the right thing to do?

what exactly did Georgia do wrong again?


--
I am sorry Cisco, for Microsoft has found a new RPC flaw - tonight your e0 shall be stretched wide like goatse.
[ Parent ]

bombing/attacking a garrison (none / 0) (#77)
by postDigital on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 02:20:54 AM EST

Of Russian "peacekeepers" wasn't the brightest of moves on the part of The Georgian government.



[ Parent ]
I don't see (none / 0) (#78)
by cicero on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 02:45:21 AM EST

how that answers the question I posed, especially when viewed in the context of the post to which I was replying.


--
I am sorry Cisco, for Microsoft has found a new RPC flaw - tonight your e0 shall be stretched wide like goatse.
[ Parent ]
what exactly did Georgia do wrong? (3.00 / 5) (#79)
by postDigital on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 03:18:45 AM EST

Was the question I was answering, and clearly, their attacking a military outpost of Russian soldiers, who were at least ostensively on an official peacekeeping mission was wrong.

In context though, maybe a piece published by about the only right-sided think-tank in America presently with a shred of honesty will help:

Justin Raimondo, "The Real Aggressor - Georgian invasion of South Ossetia sets the stage for a wider war", Antiwar dot com, August 11, 2008

What Georgia did wrong was to agressively upset the status quo, at a time they believed would provide enough element of surprise, that they could achieve their offensive objectives before Russia could react. They had no real justifiable cause for waging war upon Russian troops, and Russia will respond with heavy-handed brutality, as they always do, as they always have, since the days of the Tsars.



[ Parent ]
yeah, I think it's hard to avoid that conclusion (none / 1) (#84)
by Delirium on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 05:09:37 AM EST

Regardless of what side you think is "right" in this conflict, it's hard to avoid thinking that the Georgian side was stupid. This would be like Serbia, given the present circumstances, launching an invasion of Kosovo: arguably justified under international law, but inarguably stupid. Instead, their current government is taking the much smarter tact of putting NATO and the EU in a bind by de facto controlling northern Kosovo, preventing UN recognition of a change in status, and avoiding giving any pretext for further action.

[ Parent ]
yes/no (none / 0) (#128)
by Liar on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 06:02:49 PM EST

The Georgian offensive began as a reaction to an exchange of gunfire between rebel and Georgian forces.

Hard to verify who shot first, and in hindsight, perhaps Georgia should not have taken the bait, but being riding out attacks without any reaction is seldom an option because it encourages only more such attacks.

Rather than saying it's a stupid move, let us say that Georgia was in a no-win situation.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
so, you're not seeing the connection (none / 0) (#90)
by cicero on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 10:16:14 AM EST

between sausalito's message

If Russia gave a signal of weakness, who knows how many midget would-be rebel provinces would try to do the same? How many civilians would die in that scenario?
and what georgia did?

I understand that attacking a garrison of russian "peacekeepers" isn't the smartest thing that georgia could've done, and I was never commenting on the rightness or their legal claim to the area. I was pointing out that the justification sausalito gave for russia going into georgia could pretty easily be applied to georgia going into south ossetia


--
I am sorry Cisco, for Microsoft has found a new RPC flaw - tonight your e0 shall be stretched wide like goatse.
[ Parent ]

This is a real head-scratcher. (2.25 / 4) (#21)
by lostincali on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:28:15 PM EST

What would lead the Georgian government to think a full conventional confrontation with a vastly superior military power like Russia could work out well for Georgia? It boggles the mind that they would do something so stupid when evidence abounds lately that it is much more effective to harass major powers through proxy wars and guerrilla uprisings.

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."

Difficult to say for someone who is not there (none / 1) (#26)
by sausalito on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 02:04:28 PM EST

possible explanations:
  1. Military. the plan might have worked if the Georgian army had succeeded to grab the capital and entrench itself in it. At that point, the Russian would be looking at a long, urban operation with a significantly larger civilian toll which might have been unacceptable. However, the Russian garrison and the independentist militias fought like wolverines and kept them at bay.
  2. Internal politics. The current president is a hardline nationalist. He might either harbour Mussolini-style delusions of grandeur or simply have made electoral promises to the war-now party. Or part of the army got out of control and he had no choice but try a high risk strategy.

Now faced with this disaster Georgia is playing their desperate last card, trying to look like victims on the international stage, hoping to get some brownie points from the US and EU. This is what they are doing now with their Olympics withdrawal charade. Superpowers do not seem to be buying into it (Bush was quite lukewarm in its call for cease-fire) as it is way too obvious what happened (even if some media are falling for the Georgia sympathy plot hook sink and liner)

_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

line and sinker that is (none / 0) (#27)
by sausalito on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 02:07:00 PM EST

hehe
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

I don't believe the first point. (none / 0) (#28)
by lostincali on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 02:13:22 PM EST

Russia has proven itself when it comes to drawn-out, high-casualty urban wars (see: Chechnya) -- they don't seem to value human life as much as Western nations do. Which would scare the shit out of me if (1) was my strategy.

As for (2), that seems plausible enough, but wow, they must be nationally-suicidal.

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

3. CIA funded. n (none / 1) (#40)
by livus on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 09:33:08 PM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
but that's stupid, too. (3.00 / 2) (#44)
by lostincali on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 11:26:22 PM EST

how could fomenting instability and crisis in a region critical to moving caspian sea oil serve US interests? it runs directly against them!

"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

They probably take a slightly longer view. (none / 1) (#69)
by livus on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 07:06:13 PM EST

Creating instability is only half of what they get up to. Maybe they want regime change in Georgia. Maybe they have some sort of puppet in mind for somewhere.

I think the time has long since passed where we could think that the US genuinely tries to maintain regional stability in terms of oil supply.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

McCain wants to send in troops (3.00 / 6) (#25)
by alba on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:58:10 PM EST

Wall Street Journal

The Republican candidate also said [...] "The international community needs to establish a truly independent and neutral peace keeping force in South Ossetia."

This could get real big fun. Attentive readers might know that Chechnya borders Georgia and that the insurgency there was considered to be unwinable. Surprise, surpise, the Russians did win. Turned out that the birth rate of Chechnyans could not keep up with casualty rates.

Seems the losers of Iraq and Afghanistan want to get into real trouble this time.



Recruit College Republicans into the military (3.00 / 3) (#53)
by postDigital on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 03:43:25 PM EST

To help flesh out the depleted ranks first.

Although it's arguable, whether there would be any real benefit from this, due to the following genetic ailments which afflict the College Republican membership base at epidemic frequencies:

  • Acute Genitalia Deficit Disorder (AGDD)
  • Weak Knees
  • Involuntary Bowels
  • Jaundiced Abdomens
  • Alabaster-Hued Livers
  • Reflexive Bladders
  • Gelatinized Spines
  • Congenital Castration

Still, it's always important that a nation's armed forces have enough insurgency-fodder available for attrition purposes, when seeking to implement global imperialistic dreams.



[ Parent ]
bull fucking shit (3.00 / 4) (#30)
by balsamic vinigga on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 03:07:27 PM EST

Russia has had since 1992 to acknowledge South Ossetia's independence. And guess what genius, they never have!

So they back Georgia diplomatically and then back South Ossetia militarily? Give me a fucking break. They saw a chance to invade Georgia and jumped on it. They probably woulda done it without an excuse if they coulda.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!

we are not talking about the place where (1.50 / 2) (#31)
by sausalito on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 03:14:21 PM EST

your gramps picked cotton, tool.

Look at the huge diplomatic support Georgia is getting from Russia (wikilink

In 2003, Shevardnadze (who won reelection in 2000) was deposed by the Rose Revolution, after Georgian opposition and international monitors asserted that the November 2 parliamentary elections were marred by fraud.[28] The revolution was led by Mikheil Saakashvili, Zurab Zhvania and Nino Burjanadze, former members and leaders of Shavarnadze's ruling party. Mikheil Saakashvili was elected as President of Georgia in 2004.

Following the Rose Revolution, a series of reforms was launched to strengthen the country's military and economic capabilities. The new government's efforts to reassert the Georgian authority in the southwestern autonomous republic of Ajaria led to a major crisis early in 2004. Success in Ajaria encouraged Saakashvili to intensify his efforts, but without success, in the breakaway South Ossetia. These events resulted in a severe deterioration of relations with Russia, fueled also by Russia's open assistance and support to the two secessionists areas. Russian military bases (dating back to Soviet era) in Georgia were evacuated, with the last remaining base in Batumi handed over to Georgia in 2007.[


_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

ok let me modify it (none / 0) (#32)
by balsamic vinigga on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 04:58:25 PM EST

they take an official stance against recognizing S.O independence, but offer aid on the sly. Why on earth would you take an official stance against a de juror resolution but fuel the flames of de facto independence. can you say "ulterior motive?" I can. And did. And the Russians are wrong. End of story.

Too bad I probably wont be around to -1 this. :(

Someone please sockpuppet in a -1 for me.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
[ Parent ]

You are a real idiot (none / 0) (#34)
by sausalito on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 05:08:13 PM EST

If you care to read some articles on the recognition issue instead of spewing unsubstantiated nonsense (like this one, for example) you would know that the CIS did not recognize South Ossetia:
  1. they were wary of creating a major diplomatic incident: South Ossetia was already effectively independent, why create a crisis?
  2. they were using it against the US and EU to dissuade them from recognizing Kosovo and whatnot
  3. in exchange for behaving as the UN wanted the CIS obtained the possibility of sending troops there (the already cited 1000-strong garrison) under the UN flag as faux-peacekeepers. So Georgia could say nothing as it is a UN member.

OK enough, you are just too thick.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

All I hear is: "DERP DERP DERP" (1.50 / 4) (#37)
by Peahippo on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 08:00:33 PM EST

As in "DERP DERP DERP BIG EMPIRES ARE GOOD DERP DERP DERP REGIONAL INDEPENDENCE IS BAD DERP DERP DERP GOTTA SUPPORT THE SAME TYPE OF EMPIRE THAT *I* LIVE IN DERP DERP DERP."

The CIS and USA are unmanageable superregions and Empires. They must fall eventually. Rational folk would accept that and provide for the peaceful transition to secession. Since Communo-Capitalists are in charge in the USA and CIS -- by definition, they are NOT rational and peaceful people -- then that's just not gonna happen.

I say we donate $10 as a bounty to any Georgian that puts a rifle bullet through the head of any CIS soldier. Kills must be confirmed by video, which may be easily delivered as MP3s for our viewing pleasure.

And killing Imperial soldiers is a true pleasure. I really can't wait until we get around to it here in the pre-CWII USA.


Anarchy for the Caucasus? (none / 0) (#39)
by alba on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 09:26:52 PM EST

Well, Anarchy means having to put up with things that really piss you off.

And Georgia will have absolutely none of this dissident shit.

[ Parent ]

wait, what? (3.00 / 2) (#42)
by rhiannon on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 10:47:55 PM EST

You're saying that the defense of the newly independent south ossetia by russia is support of an empire? And that south ossetia should be part of georgia simply to spite the russians?

What about the regional independence of the southern ossetians?

-----------------------------------------
I continued to rebuff the advances... so many advances... of so many attractive women. -MC
[ Parent ]

shhhh... you're not supposed to ask what they want (3.00 / 5) (#43)
by lostincali on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 11:24:28 PM EST


"The least busy day [at McDonalds] is Monday, and then sales increase throughout the week, I guess as enthusiasm for life dwindles."
[ Parent ]

Ha (3.00 / 5) (#120)
by rusty on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 03:27:31 PM EST

The CIS and USA are unmanageable superregions and Empires

Yes indeedy. Note especially the way if you drive even a short distance within the US, you'll find yourself surrounded by people who have lived in their isolated communities for centuries, speak a different language, eat different food, have different customs and play games you have never even heard of. The ancient ethnic tensions here must surely tear this pseudo-nation apart before long.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

they call it POP in the south (none / 0) (#165)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:16:43 AM EST

instead of calling it soda, as god ordained, those filthy heathens call it POP

i heard they even call it COLA in the midwest!

i suggest genocide


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Exterminate the savages. (none / 1) (#169)
by rusty on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 01:29:00 PM EST



____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Long-standing tensions ... (none / 1) (#227)
by joegee on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 05:36:26 PM EST

between the North and South Dakota will tear this country into itty bitty pieces.  I read the other day that border tensions have escalated between North and South Carolina.  The "breakway" region of "West" Virginia is a full kettle sitting on high heat waiting to spew hot water all over the kitchen that houses the stove on which simmers the great American melting pot!   Since I mentioned west, don't even get me started on the "middle" West!  Talk about elevating mediocrity.  If it's not really west, DON'T CALL IT THAT!

These are troubled times we live in, brother.

Hey, while we're on the subject of names, I looked up "New" Mexico on Wikipedia, and it's over ninety years old.  What gives?

-Joe


<sig>I always learn something on K5, sometimes in spite of myself.</sig>
[ Parent ]

new mexico is lost to the reconquista (none / 0) (#229)
by circletimessquare on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:38:25 PM EST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista_(Mexico)

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
The USA can't hold together anyway. (none / 0) (#184)
by Peahippo on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:57:21 PM EST

How are you liking that that credit crash? "UNMANAGEABLE." Learn to think in more than one dimension, Rus.


[ Parent ]
OMG CREDIT CRASH!!! (none / 0) (#185)
by rusty on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:17:35 PM EST

What do you take TV news seriously? The "Credit crash" is hurting real estate developers. That's it. I can't think of a group more deserving of hurt, so I'm fine with it.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Caution: Your Butthurt Ahead (none / 0) (#186)
by Peahippo on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 09:04:18 PM EST

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html

When Bernanke said the subprime mortgage problem was "contained", he was lying, and now so are you. So, people entering foreclosure are now counted as "housing developers" to you?

Rusty, this is the largest financial crash in all of Human history. Deny it all you want. It should make for interesting conversations with the people before and after you in the bread+soup line you end up in.


[ Parent ]
Oh, you bet (none / 0) (#189)
by rusty on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:23:47 AM EST

36 podunk banks fail, and it's the largest financial crash in human history? I didn't know human history had been so smooth till now.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
MP3 isn't a video format, dumbass $ (none / 0) (#123)
by Nimey on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 04:46:13 PM EST


--
Never mind, it was just the dog cumming -- jandev
You Sir, are an Ignorant Motherfucker. -- Crawford
I am arguably too manic to do that. -- Crawford
I already fuck my mother -- trane
Nimey is right -- Blastard
i am in complete agreement with Nimey -- i am a pretty big deal

[ Parent ]
boy do you suck (none / 1) (#164)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:14:49 AM EST

i was about to +3 you until i got to the part about killing soldiers and posting the video

you realize these grunts are mostly the lower middle class and poor of the CIS/ USA, the exact same people you are supposedly championing, right?

if you said go after the kremlin/ pentagon with violence, i might disagree with you, but i'd still give you +3, since you are attacking the right targets

but going after the grunt soldiers just makes you a full retard

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

El Conquistador Thou Art (3.00 / 2) (#183)
by Peahippo on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:49:07 PM EST

Firstly I don't give a fuck about your rating.

Secondly, whatever class a person is in, they are not supposed to support EVIL.

Thirdly, shooting the soldiers is what war's all about. You didn't see Cheney anywhere near where the shooting was, did you? No, Cheney was surrounded by cordons of guards at all times. So the Iraqi freedom fighter has to shoot and bomb the evil motherfuckers who are allegedly only there to collect a paycheck.

The real retardation is in people like you, who use any excuse to have their Evil Empire attack other nations just to secure resources. You're a fucking barbarian. Hopefully you'll come to the end that all barbarians come to, which is a violent one.


[ Parent ]
Earl Browder interviewed in 1957 (2.00 / 3) (#49)
by sye on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 07:23:17 AM EST

  Earl Browder , former head of the Communist Party in the United States, talks to a crone Philip Morris salesman about Nikita Khrushchev, Joseph Stalin, the Cold War, and American Communism.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
commentary - For a better sye@K5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ripple me ~~> ~allthingsgo: gateway to Garden of Perfect Brightess in CNY/BTC/LTC/DRK
rubbing u ~~> ~procrasti: getaway to HE'LL
Hey! at least he was in a stable relationship. - procrasti
enter K5 via Blastar.in

+1FP (none / 0) (#50)
by debillitatus on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 12:14:32 PM EST

This is good stuff.

Damn you and your daily doubles, you brigand!

Russia still doesn't have a very good excuse (3.00 / 2) (#54)
by Delirium on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 04:30:18 PM EST

Russia is interested mainly in clinging to its colonial empire, not in supporting people's right to self-determination. It surely doesn't treat South Ossetia similarly to how it treats other separatist regions in the Caucasus, like Chechnya, where it holds that the overriding principle is that national sovereignty of the legally recognized country must be respected.

it's not as easy as colonialism (none / 1) (#58)
by postDigital on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:21:59 PM EST

Russia believes it has valid geopolitical concerns in the S. Caucasus, and definite security concerns in The Pankisi Gorge. The Chechen problem was assuredly their creation, but at the same time, it has analogs to 911. Russia has paid a dear price in terrorist attacks upon their civilian population for it.

The South Caucasus is also Russia's main link into the Mid East, and from there on into Africa. Africa is fast becoming a major prize for the International Powers as they begin to think ahead to major untapped natural resources. Russia is probably energy independent for the foreseeable future, especially because they are in prime position to exploit Arctic circle oil reserves opened up for easier access in a warmer global environment, but Africa has vast mineral wealth awaiting.

The future's so bright, I've got to wear shades...



[ Parent ]
how is that not colonialism? (none / 1) (#61)
by Delirium on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:28:57 PM EST

Seeking to maintain a regional "area of influence" with military force, links to strategically and resource-important areas, etc., are pretty much what colonialism is about.

[ Parent ]
So all the world is coloniast (none / 1) (#62)
by sausalito on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:32:01 PM EST

Colonialist does not mean building an area of influence and secure raw materials. This is called foreign politics.

_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

once you start occupying foreign countries it does (none / 1) (#63)
by Delirium on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:32:47 PM EST

nt

[ Parent ]
the UN, EU, US all did that at some point $ (none / 1) (#64)
by sausalito on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:40:26 PM EST


_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

and have been accused of colonialism (none / 1) (#65)
by Delirium on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:46:40 PM EST

in some cases with justification

[ Parent ]
that's my point - if this is the definition (none / 1) (#66)
by sausalito on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 06:00:20 PM EST

than everybody does it and that's hardly a valid accusation to level on a country. It's how the world works

_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

but also makes sense to oppose it where possible (none / 1) (#67)
by Delirium on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 06:04:26 PM EST

There's a reason that the countries who were formerly occupied by the Russian Empire (the Baltic countries, Poland, etc.) are the loudest in condemning this recent invasion of another former part of the Russian Empire.

[ Parent ]
That's errant nonsense (3.00 / 2) (#71)
by livus on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 07:23:21 PM EST

Imperialism has always been the preserve of a number of nations, but not all. Not everyone has had the opportunity to do it at all.

The imperialism that shaped the current geopolitical landscape was a particular kind of imperialism fuelled by the industrial revolution and pursued by a specific group of nations.

What you're doing here is you're worming away from simple facts on the grounds that you don't like the perjoritive associations the term has garnered.

That's just silly, it's much like saying that since murder is "how the world works" I shouldn't be allowed to call anyone a murderer.


---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

No, it's not true (none / 0) (#74)
by sausalito on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 07:57:51 PM EST

as the current situation shows. Here we have a small, relatively poor nations which is indeed behaving  just as bad as an old-style superpower.

It did not hesitate to use force in a surprise attack at the wake of the Olympics breaking all possible taboos (I remind you that in classic times there was a pan-Greek truce in such occasion, the "Olympic truce").

What I find most infuriating it's their PR: claiming they have been attacked and that they are victims. Notice how the news of a stray bomb in Gori hitting an apartment block next to a Georgian barrack has been bounced by all the media and blown out of proportions. The hundred dead of the Thskinvali Georgian bombing have not made it to the press.

I tell you, this is very shrewd politicking, better than the Soviet-style disinformation.

So really, what you say is factually wrong. Large scale imperialism is pursued by large rich countries, small ones do just the same, on a smaller scale. Period.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

the Georgians didn't even leave their country (none / 1) (#75)
by Delirium on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 09:34:49 PM EST

Nobody has even alleged that the Georgian military has undertaken military actions outside its borders. Meanwhile, Russia has invaded a neighboring state.

I wonder what Russia would think if the U.S. intervened as "peacekeepers" by invading Chechnya.

[ Parent ]

The "peacekeepers" have OCDE mandate (none / 0) (#82)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 04:44:41 AM EST

and attacking them is a war crime. Strictly speaking, Georgia president Saakhasvili should be tried in the Hague.

Look at Serbia, they did the same and compare the difference in treatment.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

I'm pretty sure nobody wants to involve the Hague (none / 1) (#83)
by Delirium on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 05:06:13 AM EST

Putin would be first against the wall if we were to start prosecuting war crimes in the Caucusus region, along with most of his puppet leaders in Chechnya.

In any case, the NATO Kosovo intervention wasn't justified either, if that's what you're getting at.

[ Parent ]

How much is the KGB paying you comrade? /nt (none / 0) (#140)
by Liar on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 08:17:14 PM EST




I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
Huh? I'm not wrong (none / 0) (#139)
by livus on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 08:09:28 PM EST

but you are completely alone in your definition of imperialism as the "use force in a surprise attack".

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
past paradigms (3.00 / 3) (#68)
by postDigital on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 06:58:42 PM EST

You're using antiquated terms in a changed world. Media tarts like Geldof notwithstanding, the powermongers care only about the wogs on the ground insofar as they can be utilised in the grab for resources. It has little to do with actual colonisation, and everything to do with which combines end up possessing the rights of resource exploitation.

it's a corporapist world, and many will end-up wishing nostalgically for the warm and fuzzy past of French/Belgique African pillage and rape, as well as apartheid.

Corporations have no qualities of humaneness about them. It does not matter that humas sit on the board. They are bestial fictional constructs, designed to shield owners from proper accountability/liabilities which should naturally flow from business decisions, and are tightly focused upon one purpose: gouging profitability. Sarkozy cares more about his elevator shoes than he does starving Africans. He must, after all, maintain his public appearance, standing next to his trophy wife. His buddy Richard Perle is even more brutal, because he works in the background.

This perspective is greatly in error, because the world is about to enter into the nanoage within the next decade or so, and resources will become available from the dung heaps of past civilisation, but until that becomes evident and implementable on a vast scale, the future is naught but a bleak global resource war to the majority of policy wonks in power.



[ Parent ]
I think you're thinking of Settler Colonialism. (3.00 / 2) (#70)
by livus on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 07:15:21 PM EST

The normal term for what we're talking about now would be neo-colonialism which by definition is the influence and control of political and economic systems, and carried out by transnational corporations.

Neither colonialism per se or its neo version necessarily involve everyone actually moving into the territory in question. The Belgian Congo was hardly full of Belgian civilians, after all.

---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]

the most brutal Belgique citizzen (none / 1) (#72)
by postDigital on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 07:38:55 PM EST

I've ever had a conversation with was a former member of their military, who had been stationed in the Congo. He told me that when one encounters an 8yr old and a 12 yr old, both holding rifles, shoot the 8yr old by reflex, because the 12yr old has enough understanding about life to know what death is.



[ Parent ]
What a charming fellow. n (none / 0) (#73)
by livus on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 07:41:50 PM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
Pretty good to me (none / 1) (#59)
by sausalito on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:24:16 PM EST

Nobody's pushing higher ideals or lofty moral values here.

The US is trying to create trouble in CIS area of influence by siding with Georgia (sending a few military instructors) and at the same time protect its oil interests. And rightly so.

This crazy Georgian president, who promised loads and delivered nothing to its electorate and had to face riots at home not long ago, thought fit to brazenly attack CIS-sponsored autonomous provinces protected by a supra-national organization.

It got what it deserved.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

so the usa would be right to invade cuba (none / 1) (#106)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:02:09 PM EST

at the slightest provocation?

i don't think so. it would obviously just be an excuse for imperialism. why can't you see that about georgia? sure, georgia is being run by an airhead megalomaniac purposefully taunting russia. but that doesn't excuse russia's actions, it just makes both sides retarded

study the war of 1898. look at the horrible horrible provocation (read: stupdi bullshit excuse) the usa used to take cuba, philippines, guam, puerto rico, etc...

same fucking thing as what is going on georgia right now

exactly the same fucking scenario

why can't you see that?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

not at the slightest provocation (none / 0) (#141)
by postDigital on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:14:44 AM EST

but if Cuba was silly enough to start shelling Guantanamo Bay, just what the fuck do you believe the American response would be?

I know two Cuban/Americans who gained their freedom by swimming around a long barricade line between Cuban sovereign territory and Guantanamo Bay. One was shot at by Cuban military while in the water. Guaranteed, that was very provocative behaviour, perceived from the American side, yet the GIs must wait until the swimmer is coming onshore on their side before rendering assistance.



[ Parent ]
so you are honestly telling me (none / 0) (#149)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 08:40:26 AM EST

that if cubans starting shelling guantanamo, the usa would have every right to start a full scale land invasion of cuba, splitting the country in two (like the russians just did to georgia) and everyone on the world stage would and should be totally ok with that and 100% supportive of the usa?

no, you fucking moron, maybe russia's response to splitting georgia in two, because of the georgian military in south ossetia, which they consider their native soil AS DOES THE WORLD COMMUNITY, that the russians pretty much fucking overreacted by about 100,000X?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

you can be thick-headed sometimes (none / 0) (#151)
by postDigital on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:21:58 AM EST

If Cuba started shelling Guantanamo, guaranteed, we'd invade them, and not stop at partitioning it up. We'd overthrow the government, and set-up one more to our tastes.

The world's opinions would be damned. We'd thumb our noses at them. Just what the fuck would the world do anyway? Absolfuckinglutely nothing. They could not project enough conventional force in a short enough time to make a difference.

This looks to be exactly what Russia is doing presently. They are punishing Georgia, knowing damn well that there is nothing the rest of the world can do about it. Along with solving what they perceive to be a hornet at their border, they are serving up a lesson that is not being lost on the Ukrainians either.



[ Parent ]
ah i see (none / 0) (#154)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:56:13 AM EST

you support the notion that might makes right

that morality is a joke, that the guy with the biggest gun decides right and wrong, be damned wityh all other considerations

sorry if i'm too "thick headed" to not understand this

fucking retarded twatstain

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

this has nothing to do with right (none / 1) (#157)
by postDigital on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:38:52 AM EST

or morality. It is realism.

I've been in a war zone. I was a medic, and watched too many people die. Some while my hands were inside of their guts trying to find and plug an arterial hole, just like the Dutch boy and the dike. War has no redeeming qualities. I am antiwar.

People that should die in a war, never seem the one to get killed. Assholes have a much higher survival rate, because they are able to let a bud bleed out 2 meters away, while they cower in fear behind cover. It's the same with the enemy, and the fucking peasants are beyond pitiful.

Even if the soldier assholes got whacked, it still wouldn't really be the right guys. The ones truly deserving of death in a war are usually nice and warm back in their respective capitals, hurling derogations at each other, while sending off other peoples' children, siblings, spouses and friends into the abyss.

There is no right in a war. There's only death and the darkness that's always descending.



[ Parent ]
now see that's very insightful of you (none / 0) (#162)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:52:38 AM EST

so why aren't you condemning russia instead of asking us to accept it?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
what good is condemnation (none / 0) (#170)
by postDigital on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 02:10:21 PM EST

when there is nothing that can be done? Besides, it was still Saakashvili who miscalculated, and stuck his ass on the BBQ.

Also, my opinion has changed substantially since my first post in this thread. I've been doing quite a bit of reading.

Did you catch my colouring and light photochop of a cartoon from a Georgian newspaper? That says loads about the situation.

There's nothing that you or I, or even the USA can do about this. Hopefully Russia will get their punishment over with and back out to S. Ossetia again soon. I doubt that they want to get bogged down in an insurgency, which would be supported by the west.



[ Parent ]
"nothing can be done" (none / 0) (#176)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:13:50 PM EST

by your approximation then, most of the progress human civilization has made is impossible

nothing can be done?

really?

fucking retard


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

not if you (none / 0) (#177)
by postDigital on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:35:31 PM EST

begin channeling the Ascended Masters



[ Parent ]
I CAME (2.40 / 5) (#55)
by Ruston Rustov on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 04:34:07 PM EST

Armchair quarterbacking by nerdly mid-level academics and finance laborers, from as far away from the trenches as is conceivably possible: it's a damn good life.

I had had incurable open sores all over my feet for sixteen years. The doctors were powerless to do anything about it. I told my psychiatrist that they were psychosomatic Stigmata - the Stigmata are the wounds Jesus suffered when he was nailed to the cross. Three days later all my sores were gone. -- Michael Crawford
Maybe tomorrow. -- Michael Crawford
As soon as she has her first period, fuck your daughter. -- localroger

If you want to argue (3.00 / 5) (#57)
by maniac1860 on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:16:14 PM EST

that Russia's actions are understandable and don't actually portend a return to Soviet style military conquest then you might have a point. Trying to claim that what Russia is doing is right as opposed to merely neutral makes you either insane, retarded, or horrendously misinformed.

Right response (none / 1) (#60)
by sausalito on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 05:28:20 PM EST

to a irresponsibly aggressive action by a scheming little madman heading a puny nation.

A perfectly legitimate and understandable course of action. NATO did much worse with Serbia.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

you win the gold star at propaganda today (1.50 / 1) (#94)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:05:55 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
I don't want to start one flamewar with you as (1.50 / 2) (#95)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:28:30 AM EST

you have a history of pagewidening threads so I only say this:

Had a nation not allied with the US-UN (any nation: China, Lybia, Syria, Angola...)

  1. indiscriminately shelled a town (the Georgians used among others Uragan rockets - those things have a 1 kilometer radius of inaccuracy, that's carpet bombing a town, not attaccking military) when everybody was asleep killing perhaps 1,000.
  2. launched a surprise attack "against a contingent sent to a trouble spot and killed 10

... that country would be attacked and the president would be on a one-way ticket to the Hague or Guantanamo, and that is the best case scenario.

Russia only reacted and bombed military targets with jets and heavy artillery. Not super-accurate, but accurate enough. It just limited itself to land operations in Sourthern Ossetia.

But no!

  1. Everybody is condemning Russia, all the papers and politicians in Europe are screaming blue murder for an action that was completely justified.

  2. This cunt of a Georgian president is granted primetime saying that he is a victim, that this is a new Hungarian invasion... gimme a break.

  3. When one bomb goes astray and hits an apartment building in Gori every news service shows it, conveniently forgetting that this is nothing compared to what the Georgian just did. I have seen that fat woman with schrapnel on her shoulder thirty times already)
4 The EU wants to brokder a cease-fire - ahem but the EU was very close to Georgia until yesterday, so how credible is it to act as a third party.

Double standards and hypocrisy. That is what it is. I am starting to believe that Russia is right after all to be paranoid. Some guys think that Russia is still the Soviet Union and that the Cold War never finished. And that is not Putin.

_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

all i know is (1.50 / 4) (#96)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:38:01 AM EST

anyone, such as you, who speaks with such certainty about cause and effect, in either the region of the caucasus, or the balkans, is either

  1. incredibly uneducated on the history of the regions
  2. a flaming partisan prejudiced propagandizer

seeing as you obviously have a good bit of knowledge and interest in the current conflict, you are obviously #2

to conclude that georgia is so clearly the aggressor here, without any acknowledgement of the history of georgia and russia and the caucasus, is obviously blind propaganda

please note: i don't support georgia. fuck georgia. my animosity is towards anyone, such as yourself, who is extremely gung ho for one side or the other. so when i resist your propaganda, it is not because i sympathize with the georgians. it is because i detest a partisan. that's you, asshole

the caucasus and the balkans are nothing but staging grounds for thousands of years of ethnic, imperial, religious, tribal, and nationalist backbiting

you are simply another obviously prejudiced backbiter in a long line of backbiters

so the only thing i can think of of absolutely any value when rerading your words is simply this: so what exactly does putin's cock taste like? because you are most certainly smoking imperial russian dick like a heroin addict smokes the pipe

fucking partisan prick


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Everybody can say this but you... (none / 0) (#98)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:49:01 AM EST

... the armchair political scientist par excellance and commentator who argued from the safety of NYC about what is going on in Myanmar-Burma and proposed the assassination of people. What about the complicated history of that place? What about the nuances and balance of blame there? You seemed pretty sure of yourself.

I do just like you, so use facts and links to alternative information if you want to make a point of my partizanship.

Cause taking the no-black-and-white, no-wrong-no-right position just makes you ridiculous.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

i speak on behalf of humanity (1.16 / 6) (#100)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:53:01 AM EST

in myanmar

i speak on behalf of:

  1. the vast majority of international governments
  2. the vast majority of any international civilian with the slightest knowledge of the situation
  3. the vast majority of the people of myanmar themselves

i speak for everyone, in the world, except the junta themselves, on the issue of the kleptocracy of burma

capisce?

ok, now its your turn:

who do you speak on behalf of?

rephrased: does putin's semen taste like vodka or caviar?

fucking propagandizing partisan asswipe


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

CTS - THE MANKIND SPOKESPERSON (3.00 / 7) (#102)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:58:09 AM EST

Jesus I don't I laughed so hard in front of the keyboard in my life.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

thank you ;-) sasaulito:imperial russian apologist (none / 1) (#104)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 12:21:47 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
just a propagandizer (none / 0) (#93)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:05:36 AM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
sausalito, ping-up (2.25 / 4) (#80)
by postDigital on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 03:37:40 AM EST

Your "The Exile" call was spot-on, and I was thinking about dissing you for it:

Mark Ames, "Getting Georgia's War On", The Nation, August 8, 2008

I have a hard time believing the bastard Ames is still alive and kicking. Several years ago, he did a series in "The eXile" about his engaging in many acts of unprotected sex with Moscow hookers. He was attempting to commit suicide by STDs as part of his Edward Limonov idolatry. What is very odd about his analysis in this instance is that he is no fan of Putin or Medvedev, and recently claimed his rag was shut-down because of his opposition to them. Ames' Limonov coverage was outstanding, BTW.

Brilliant Link



this guy too (3.00 / 2) (#81)
by postDigital on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 03:44:28 AM EST

Gary Brecher, "War Nerd: South Ossetia, The War of My Dreams", The Exiled, August 11, 2008

[ Parent ]
This too - the BBC seems to have gained composure (3.00 / 2) (#85)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 07:19:57 AM EST

and objectivity after initially giving way too much credit to Saakashvili.

BBC Online, 11th August 2008:
Early lessons from S Ossetia conflict
.


_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

maybe (3.00 / 2) (#86)
by vivelame on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 09:00:00 AM EST

teh georgians shouldn't have poked the temperamental bear with that pointy stick.

Now it's party time!

Hey, did you notice that:

  1. the media, including the US ones, don't seem to shy away from showing casualties, this time? Awesome war porn, i guess ogrish.com was running low on novelties.
  2. teh georgians are teh stoooooopid (i expect the photoshop experts at powerline to be on their case any minute now! oh, wait, whatever).


--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
Yeah, like the Russians are going to go for it (none / 0) (#87)
by mirleid on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 09:31:03 AM EST

A Georgian National Security Council official said the document signed by Saakashvili called for an unconditional cease-fire, a non-use of force agreement, a withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgian territory, including the South Ossetia region, and provisions for international peacekeeping and mediation.

Source: Crap News Network

Chickens don't give milk
eh. (none / 0) (#88)
by vivelame on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 09:34:14 AM EST

"withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgian territory, including the South Ossetia region"
Not bloody likely.
Putin wants Saakashvili's head on a platter for being a pain in the ass, and i guess he'll get it.


--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
The russians might even agree to that... (none / 0) (#89)
by mirleid on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 10:04:43 AM EST

...I mean, they've amply demonstrated that they can storm in whenever they like, I think that the real sticking point is the "international peacekeepers" bit, like the Russian are going to allow the EU to pull a Kosovo (in reverse) on them...

Chickens don't give milk
[ Parent ]
considering THEY're pulling a Kosovo.. (none / 0) (#91)
by vivelame on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 10:28:09 AM EST

again, not bloody likely.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
USA did the right thing in Cuba (1.20 / 5) (#92)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:04:28 AM EST

So the first analyses of the USA-Cuba tussle over Russian Missiles are being published.

Don't be fooled by the Communist - especially Russian and Chinese - media consensus (for example, this article on the ever dumb Pravda screaming OMG American invasion!): this time the Shanghai Daily's view that this was a Cuban aggressive gamble is absolutely correct.

According to almost all independent reporters, the operations were kickstarted by the Cubans hosting a massive coterie of Russian missiles that are nuclear tipped and aimed at New York City and Washington DC around Havana at 1:50 of Friday morning, a few hours after disarmament talks had broken down (see this excellent timeline of the events - in Russian). Before that there had been only a few weeks of minor rhetorical skirmishes. You don't start such an operation without weeks of planning, do you?




The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

dear gentle k5 readers (1.60 / 10) (#97)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:46:08 AM EST

consider the words of sausalito above

now consider that anyone, such as sausalito, who speaks with such certainty about cause and effect, in either the region of the caucasus, or the balkans, is either

  1. incredibly uneducated on the history of the regions

  2. a flaming partisan prejudiced propagandizer

seeing as sausalito obviously has a good bit of knowledge and interest in the current conflict, he is obviously #2

to conclude that georgia is so clearly the aggressor here, without any acknowledgement of the history of georgia and russia and the caucasus, is obviously blind propaganda

please note: i don't support georgia. fuck georgia. my animosity is towards anyone, such as sausalito, who is extremely gung ho for one side or the other. so when you resist his propaganda, it should not be because you sympathize with the georgians. it is because you detest a flaming partisan, from either side, russian or georgian

the caucasus and the balkans are nothing but staging grounds for thousands of years of ethnic, imperial, religious, tribal, and nationalist backbiting

you are simply another obviously prejudiced backbiter in a long line of backbiters if you can say with resounding certainty that either russia or georgia are obviously the aggressors here

the only thing you should take away from sausalito's words above is simply this: sausalito must love the taste of putin's cock

because sausalito is most certainly smoking imperial russian dick like a heroin addict smokes the pipe

sausalito is a fucking partisan prick

now, again, to avoid the assholes who would accuse me of being a georgian apologist, which i am not: if saulsalito came in here with a story resoundingly on the side of the georgians, you should think THE EXACT SAME THING

avoid the partisan propagandizers, dear gentle k5 reader, avoid their zombified minds like the plague on this earth that they are

nationalism, religious bigotry: these sorts of things will be the death of this all. on display in the caucasus now is nothing more but imperial chest thumping partisan prickery, ON BOTH SIDES, of the highest order

disgusting and sickening. and much more blood will flow because of this partisan stupidity

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

LOL!!! (3.00 / 2) (#99)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:51:20 AM EST

You are the guy pontificating all the times about world affairs from a partizan point of view.

Links and facts count. The rest is bullshit. You want to prove that the Georgian were victims in this latest war. Prove it.

The high moral ground is not a place for you.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

i dont side with the georgians. fuck the georgians (1.00 / 3) (#101)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 11:55:53 AM EST

i have nothing to say in support of the georgians

likewise, i have nothing to say in support of the russians. fuck the russians

i have withering disdain for that slimy imperialist kgb skank, and i have contemptuous hate for that airhead megalomaniac in tbilisi

now you know who i am: i am not a partisan

now get back to sucking imperial russian dick you partisan twatstain

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

coming from someone who (3.00 / 6) (#103)
by vivelame on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 12:02:43 PM EST

spoke with certainty about cause and effect, in the region of Iraq & Iran, that's quite rich.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
its certainly complicated and nuanced (none / 1) (#105)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 12:22:31 PM EST

what is your point?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
my point is you are either (3.00 / 2) (#160)
by vivelame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:45:19 AM EST

# incredibly uneducated on the history of the regions

# a flaming partisan prejudiced propagandizer

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]

see now that's funny (none / 1) (#161)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:51:31 AM EST

using my own words against me

one would wish that there was actually some real insight in doing that, but unfortunately just aping someone's words back at them is useless unless you have meaning

but thanks for playing twatstain

xoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Erm? (3.00 / 3) (#107)
by rusty on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:11:07 PM EST

I think you're reading far too much into it. sausalito just lays out a (very plausible) analysis of who shot first. I don't see any partisanship here. Saying "Country A appears to have started shelling Region B, and Country C is counterattacking" does not necessarily enlist you as a flaming Country C partisan. It is possible for that to be the case, but it usually requires that your claims about who fired first are obviously false and propagandistic. As far as I can tell, these don't seem to be.

Your screed seems to deny the possibility of describing this conflict without becoming an apologist for one side or the other. I think that's dumb.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

are you fucking serious? (1.00 / 3) (#109)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:26:39 PM EST

sausalito describes a series of events beginning at a certain date in time

wonderful

i'm glad we can arbitralily pick a random date in time and call that "the beginning"

you support that bullshit?

here, rusty, you fucking retard, answer the question: "who shot first?"


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

tard (none / 1) (#111)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:33:20 PM EST

the conventional all-out war with carpet-bombing started at a precise date: Friday at 1:50.The small arms skirmishes and ambushes... well they are just part of the folklore over  there.

But the flare-ups in the last decade have been skirmishes, and for a while it looked as though peace had broken out.

The weapons used today -- tanks, multiple rocket launchers and fighter aircraft -- made the fighting qualitatively different.

Observers had little doubt that the operation to take South Ossetia back under Georgian control bore the hallmarks of a planned military offensive.

The Guardian
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

oh, no doubt (1.00 / 3) (#112)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:39:45 PM EST

when those nasty spaniards sunk the uss maine, it totally validated the american drool on guam, the phiippines, cuba, and puerto rico

i mean they were asking for it. how dare they? didn't they understand that if they marched into a region plagued by banditry that they believed was their sovereign soil they were clearly in the wrong and deserved russian intervention?

i mean, when those pesky russians put missiles in cuba, the usa had no other choice but to invade cuba, right?

right?

fucking partisan motherfucking prick:

  1. THAT WASN'T THE BEGINNING
  2. SOVIET TROOPS WAS NOT AUTOMATIC, OBVIOUS, EXCUSABLE

you fuckign partisan cocksucking propagandizer


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
see that's the difference (3.00 / 2) (#113)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:47:38 PM EST

the USS Maine (or the Tonkin incident, for the matter), where classic artificial "casus belli" built to justify a war.

Here instead Georgia clearly tried to humiliate Russia through an offensive pre-planned war against what effectively was an international protectorate.

That was no freaking excuse. It was a serious matter (like the Cuban crisis, another serious accident). And was dealt accordingly.

End of the story. That's how things work, and Russia did the right thing: defend their troops and countrymen from aggression.

You would have done the same.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

your blindness is amazing (1.50 / 4) (#116)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 02:17:16 PM EST

here's a factoid:

Russian has upped its troop numbers to 9,000 in the Black Sea region, even though peacekeeping agreements set a limit of 2,500.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4503176.ece

here's, your words, fit into that factoid:

Here Russia clearly tried to humiliate the international community through an offensive pre-planned escalation in the war against what effectively is a speck of a foe.

That was no freaking excuse. It was a serious matter (like the Sudetenland crisis, another serious incident). And was dealt accordingly.

End of the story. That's how things work, and NATO, by nuking Moscow did the right thing: defend humanity from Naked aggression.

You would have done the same.

i don't believe any of that

it's just mindless pointless slavenly partisan propaganda bullshit

JUST LIKE YOU SPOUT

russia escalated it

FACT

georgia escalated it

FACT

georgia sucks, russia sucks

but to come here, and tell me that russia's escalation si somehow totally udnerstandable and perfectly reasonable is PURE PARTISAN PROPAGANDA

you, people who think just like you, blind evil partisans, are the source of all of our suffering

what did georgia do again? it went after highway men on georgian soil. no: it attacked innocent civilians in a protectorate. blah blah blah propaganda

what did georgia do? it engaged in agggression

what did russia do? it cravenly used a minor excuse to ensure a monopoly on gas supplies. no: it bravely defended the innocent victims in south ossetia from georgian barbarity. blah blah blah propaganda

what did russia do? irt engaged in aggression

you speak of what russia did as AUTOMATIC, as CERTAIN, as REASONABLE

why what georgia did THEN. why not a million times before, a million times after? why that particular aggressive response in a menu of a million other possible responses?

good questions? no. not to you: to you, what russia did made 100% perfect sense

really??????? you fucking propaganda addled blind fuck?


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

ridiculous (3.00 / 1) (#180)
by osm on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:51:28 PM EST

han solo shot first. everyone knows that.

--------
4thelulz.org
[ Parent ]

Also (3.00 / 4) (#108)
by rusty on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:19:53 PM EST

You of all people should not have missed the fact that this has nothing to do with "imperialism" or "history" or "nationalism" or any of that bullshit. The EU and US are planning to build a natgas pipeline through South Ossetia (and, in a striking coincidence, also the "troubled" Russian province of Chechnya).

This war is about Russia's lock on EU natural gas supplies. The more instability there is in the region, the better for Russia. Whereas Georgia desperately needs to hold on to that land and get its pipeline built.

Communism is done. The upcoming wars will be over resources.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

uh... what? (1.00 / 3) (#110)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:28:55 PM EST

fighting over a pipeline isn't imperialism?

you mean when you fight over a pipeline, you can't use the concept of imperialism to describe that?

please refer to the page number in "the international relashunz as analyzed by retardz" manual where that rule is listed, thnx


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Foam foam foam (3.00 / 3) (#121)
by rusty on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 03:33:58 PM EST

nationalism, religious bigotry: these sorts of things will be the death of this all. on display in the caucasus now is nothing more but imperial chest thumping partisan prickery, ON BOTH SIDES, of the highest order

I was responding to the above. I noted your mention of "nationalism, religious bigotry," and thus took the later phrase "imperial chest thumping partisan prickery" to refer to a nationalist imperialism type of thing, not the actual clear-cut economic interests of those in charge.

I realize now, re-reading it, that that sentence is so incoherent that it could have meant anything, so I retract my clarification. I apologize for imputing meaning to something you wrote.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

your groveling public apology has been duly noted (3.00 / 2) (#122)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 03:39:46 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
CTS foaming at the mouth, film at 11...[] (3.00 / 3) (#114)
by mirleid on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:49:42 PM EST



Chickens don't give milk
[ Parent ]
(3) because I will never let a jewel like (3.00 / 2) (#133)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 06:55:39 PM EST

this be hidden: "because sausalito is most certainly smoking imperial russian dick like a heroin addict smokes the pipe".

excellent.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

You should sig it. n (none / 0) (#178)
by livus on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 07:38:43 PM EST



---
HIREZ substitute.
be concrete asshole, or shut up. - CTS
I guess I skipped school or something to drink on the internet? - lonelyhobo
I'd like to hope that any impression you got about us from internet forums was incorrect. - debillitatus
I consider myself trolled more or less just by visiting the site. HollyHopDrive

[ Parent ]
heroin addicts don't smoke it from pipes $ (none / 0) (#214)
by procrasti on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 04:28:25 AM EST



-------
if i ever see the nickname procrasti again on this site or anywhere in my life, i want it to be in an OBITUARY -- CTS
doing my best at licking arseholes - may 2015 -- mirko
-------
Winner of Kuro5hin: April 2015
[ Parent ]
i think i'm going to trust cts on this one... (none / 1) (#222)
by Linux or FreeBSD on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:55:33 AM EST

he like totally met a heroin addict this one time or something, so he's obviously an expert!

lol. i've been meaning to post a similar comment since i first saw the quote in nimey's sig. i guess you beat me to it though.



[ Parent ]
Did anybody notice... (none / 0) (#115)
by mirleid on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 01:52:58 PM EST

...that google maps seems not to show any detail on Georgia anymore (towns, roads)? Is this an automatic feature for when there's a war on?

And maybe they know something we don't, the same seems to apply to Azerbaijan and Armenia...

Chickens don't give milk
I'm sure all the Russian tankers (none / 0) (#119)
by anonimouse on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 02:47:43 PM EST

Have Google maps printed out and stuck on their mapboards before it went all fuzzy...
~
Sleepyhel:
Relationships and friendships are complex beasts. There's nothing wrong with doing things a little differently.
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure (3.00 / 1) (#117)
by anonimouse on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 02:45:58 PM EST

...who did the right thing.

AFAICT, South Ossettia is meant to be part of Georgia, albeit with a large degree of independance due to the fact the majority of the population aren't truly Georgian.

Russia seems to have cunningly set the stage for this by issuing Russian passports to everyone in S. Ossetia so they could use the "protecting their people" excuse when the time came, and then did everything possible to ensure it would.

I don't think they planned it for precisely this weekend, but simply ensured that whenever it did happen, they would have a lot of tanks, soldiers and ships ready to "support" their "beleagured" people and soldiers.

I agree the Georgians were smoking crack when they decided to start shooting. They can't have been ignorant of the Russian agenda and basically should have played victim as much as possible to garner support.

Unless Russia has a change of heart, I suspect within 10 years (or maybe by next year) Georgia will mysteriously be part of Russia again.

I notice the Russians didn't fuck about with going to the UN for approval either.
~
Sleepyhel:
Relationships and friendships are complex beasts. There's nothing wrong with doing things a little differently.

not that i'm a big fan of the SEC (none / 0) (#118)
by d0ink on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 02:46:57 PM EST

but still i hope they stop fighting before football season gets underway.

Small corrections (3.00 / 4) (#124)
by Oblom on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 05:07:52 PM EST

Actually all thing got kickstarted by South Ossetian militias which for the few weeks before were shelling Georgian villages around. And also explosion of bus with 6 Georgian policeman's and some other random stuff. Before 8Th Georgia repeatedly ask peacekeepers and ossetians to calm things down, but nothing happened. So at 8Th Georgia started to shell positions of militia.(btw, at this stage there is like 2000-3000+ Georgians around tzhinvaly and around 1700 Russian peacekeepers + few thousends of ossetian militia. considering amount of Georgians it not looked like they planed ahead to capture anything with such a tiny force) According to journalists which was at this time at this area militia started to run away to north together with armored combat vehicles. At this point peacekeepers stopped them and took the vehicles from them and drove them towards Georgian positions. Not with so peacefull thoughts as you can guess.
Anyhow, by noon of august 8th better part (80% or so ) of South Ossetia (and 90% of Tzhinvali) was already in Georgian hands when Russian army appeared. Apparently, a few days before a bunch of Russian military helicopters, tanks, etc crossed into South Ossetia via tunnel and sat there quietly. And then appeared as magic). And the Russian division that counter attacked was 58 motorized. The 76Th airborne joined on the day after.
At the same time 9000 person Russian force arrived to Abkhazia (via conveniently repaired by Russian military railroad over last 2 month. couldn't be better) after which shelling of Georgian positions along Abkhazian border started by Abkhazian forces and Russian planes. And today Russian military offered to Georgian forces in this area (not even close to South Ossetia) to surrender, and then moved forward till cities Zugdidi and Senaki way deep into Georgia.
Right now it looks like it was mostly Russian plan (military silently sitting south ossetia, sudden repairs 2 month ago of railroad to Abkhazia) and Georgians unfortunately dragged away with it. Russian government hate Sakashvili cause he is trying to run away from mother Russia. You should see amounts of crap that is spilled upon him in Russian media
And Yakobashvili is right that this conflict is European problem. Remember the Sudetes ? How it's exactly different ? Russia made a sale-off of Russian passports to Abkhazian and South Ossetians and now they going to rescue their citezens. While at the same time they don't care about Russians in states like Turkmenistan and like it where they are oppressed. Or Russians about Baltic states where they are not citezens. Or quarter of million of Russian citezens in Israel which had to hide from Hezbollah rockets. So, this time is SO and Abkhazia and where Russia will go to protect it's citezens next ? Ukraine (especially east Ukraine and Crimea )? Baltic states ?

PS. In case you wonder where from i take details about military dispositions and stuff, well, i read some Russian military forum at which people get information first hand from their friends stationed at different parts of Russian military and a bunch of blogs of Russian journalists who got stack at this region over past few days.

Thanks - links links (none / 0) (#125)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 05:20:16 PM EST

I can read (very little) Russian.

Anyway, good to see the other part of the story.

I notice that Russia seems not to be stopping. It is said to be going for Poti and Gori - these guys might overplay their hands too.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

links-link (none / 1) (#127)
by Oblom on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 06:00:53 PM EST

Russians already landed at Poti like 5 hours ago.
Some interesting info. Population in Tzhinvali in 1886: Russians: 0, Ossetians: 0, Armenian: 744, Georgian: 1135, Jews: 1953

Russian military forum. As pro Russian and anti Georgian/US/Europe/etc as it can get. But it has pieces of interesting information that people get from friends. Like the russian troops that were already inside. Or that in last 2 days they drag in all russian military pilots from all russia that has some real expirience. Etc.
Waronline Russian speaking israeli based forum. Also lot's of info and analytics.
Somebody who a few days before mess started predicted what is going to happen ( georgians being provoked and then russians storming in)
Blogs of journalists. Some are in Georgia/Ossetia and some just got out:
http://sirjones.livejournal.com/
http://krig42.livejournal.com/
http://m-romanoff.livejournal.com/
Georgian forum in russian
Will drop off some more links tomorrow if you want.
Anyhow, there is no way that Georgia went into this adventure willingly with a plan. They just now started to have some kind of positive signs from their economy. People started eating. There is electricity (they actually export electricity to Russia). And to start war and kill off all the accomplishments ?

[ Parent ]
photochop (none / 0) (#145)
by postDigital on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:06:58 AM EST

I colourized and lightly chopped the cartoon from one of your provided links. It hasn't been web-optimized for size, so it's a bit large, but you may take it, if you desire.

Here



[ Parent ]
can you offer a bit of insight (none / 0) (#146)
by postDigital on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:47:54 AM EST

about the perception of Georgians who are Jewish and/or Russian? There seems to be quite a bit of posting on the boards in the links you provided, and I have absolutely no grasp of the Russian language, so must depend upon the less than adequate web-translators.



[ Parent ]
insight of ? (none / 0) (#147)
by Oblom on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 07:45:33 AM EST

don't get the question ;(. perception of what exactly you want ?

[ Parent ]
there seems to be (none / 0) (#148)
by postDigital on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 08:00:58 AM EST

Some animosity in exchanges on some of the boards, even though in one of your links, was a brief history of Jewish people in the Caucasus, which indicated that until the 1930's, they were a predominate part of the population in the Georgian capital.

Are these sites representative of the population as a whole, or is this more an artifact from your choice of links?

I'm trying to get up to speed regarding the area. I have a fairly decent grasp of the Turkish Press that gets published on the web in English, some knowledge of Armenia from both Turkish and Armenian sources, a fair grasp of the problems in Kurdish areas of Iran/Iraq/Turkey and a smattering of understanding about the purges of minority religious factions that has occurred in Iraq since the US invasion. I've also done a bit of background research regarding the Soviet breakaways in the Central Asian Steppes, but my Caucasus knowledge is almost non-existent.

BTW, did you like the graphic?



[ Parent ]
lies, damn lies and statistics (none / 0) (#150)
by Oblom on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 08:55:11 AM EST

>Some animosity in exchanges on some of the boards, even though in one of your links, was a brief history of Jewish people in the Caucasus, which indicated that until the 1930's, they were a predominate part of the population in the Georgian capital.
Yeap. If you continue to watch population censuses for the next years, then in year 1917 it looked like this (this time not population but households) : From 900 households — 346 were jewish (38,4%), georgian 34,4%, armenian — 17,7%, osetianas — 8,8%). But this is if you look only at Tzhinvali - capital city. Overally in south osetia population split(years 1926-1989) was like this: ~65-69% ossetians, 25-29% georgians, russians, armenians, jews - each under 2%.
Yeap, saw the graphics. looks better then original.

[ Parent ]
landed at Poti? (none / 0) (#159)
by vivelame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:41:36 AM EST

linky-link, please!!

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
links (none / 0) (#163)
by Oblom on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:01:35 AM EST

here. Need translation ?
this one is nice too. Know what is it ?

[ Parent ]
it says that (none / 0) (#166)
by vivelame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:54:44 AM EST

a recon force went there, and left.
not much of a "landing", 1944 style.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
well (none / 0) (#171)
by Oblom on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 02:18:02 PM EST

the recon force made a few rounds around city on BTRs and tanks and left SS-21 behind them

[ Parent ]
ok, and... ??? (nt) (none / 0) (#181)
by vivelame on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 07:55:50 AM EST



--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
just telling (none / 0) (#182)
by Oblom on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 08:41:17 AM EST

and now they are sinking georgian ships in poti's port and ride in gori.

[ Parent ]
seems about right to me (nt) (none / 0) (#188)
by vivelame on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:00:17 AM EST



--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
Follow the money (3.00 / 2) (#126)
by Liar on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 05:42:16 PM EST

We cannot be pro-Russian in this case. At best, we can be pro-Ossetian or pro-Abkhazian. What does Russia stand to gain from this?

Georgia has been making overtures to actively become a member of NATO; this makes it difficult for Russia to exert influence over the region, so it's weakening Georgia every way it can especially by exploiting Georgia's ethnographic diversity; this would be the equivalent of Cuba augmenting a latino independence movement in Los Angeles, sending in weapons and peacekeepers to "prevent" war, while underhandedly escalating toward it. The Russian spies caught in 2006, the deportation of Georgians from Russia, and the recent issuance of passports sorta betrays their intention to not keep the peace.

So, we have Georgia on the one hand trying to protect its national sovereignty and we have Russia on the other hand undermining those attempts.

This is why the reports are mostly pro-Georgian.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
Getting closer (3.00 / 5) (#129)
by bodza on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 06:09:00 PM EST

I've been trying for a couple of days now to try and find out whether there are any good guys in this conflict and I'm yet to find any. My armchair analysis:
  • The Georgians want the South Ossetians to flee to Russia or die
  • The Russians want their puppet states back along with their economic bounty
  • The Abkhazians are waving their dicks around
  • The South Ossetian militia long ago forgot what they are fighting for except the fighting itself (see IRA & PLO)
  • The rest of us care only for our regional strategic interests, the flow of oil and that we can watch the Olympics without guilt

Winners:

  • politicians,
  • oil & defense companies,
  • news organisations and the "analysts" that feed off them,
  • China (heard anything about Tibet lately?)

Losers:

  • anybody who gets in their way

SNAFU
--
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Émile Zola

[ Parent ]

Getting closer (3.00 / 2) (#130)
by Oblom on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 06:20:49 PM EST

The Georgians want the South Ossetians to flee to Russia or die
Actually Georgians want Ossetians back in one piece. They offered Ossetians (and Abkhazians) very wide autonomy within Georgia (don't remember all the glory details) but were told to f*&^ off. Georgians had enough of bloodshed in late 80s and beginning of 90s. I lived there at those "happy" days.

[ Parent ]
I wonder why (none / 0) (#131)
by sausalito on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 06:30:59 PM EST

if the Ossetians and Abkhazians did not want Georgia, with ample guarantees and independence, there must be some reasons.

And the reason is that the independence is there now, tomorrow there will be a flow of Georgians to water down the indigenous population (remember South Ossetia is small: 70,000 inhabitants in all) and assimilate it. In addition, they feel tied to Northern Ossetia, which is in CIS.

In a word, the separation was almost inevitable, but happened in the most traumatic way possible.

Georgia was playing a great game, almost winning it. Had it been able to stay calm and wait a little bit more, it might have been able to get into NATO. But panicked and decided to go double-or-quits... which was a tragic mistake.
_____________

GBH - "The whole point is that the App Store acts as a firewall between busy soccer moms and goatse links"
[ Parent ]

why (none / 1) (#132)
by Oblom on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 06:48:48 PM EST

First of all they are heavily invested with Russians. All Ossetian government is ex Russian KGB as was stated in top post. Their main export is US dollars. Their GDP is like $15,000,000 dollars which is 250$ per person. and 60% of it directly transfer ed from Russian. Together with weapons. And Russia is all the time plays like it either gonna support their Independence or take them into Russia. Especially after Kosovo.
When a couple of years back in Abkhazia was elected president who wasn't the choice of russia - russia stopped all export from abkhazia till situation wasn't resolved.
About flow of Georgians back - this is correct. There is about 230000 georgian refugees from Abkhazia that Russian "peacekeepers" don't let go back (otherwise Georgians will vote for pro georgian government) and same in Osetia.
When I was 11 (~1991, Tbilisi) there was a boy (georgian jew) in my class of same age. Better part of his hair was white. Why it was white I understood later when he briefly mentioned that he with his family escaped Tzhinvali from Ossetians.

[ Parent ]
I don't think that's true (none / 0) (#137)
by Liar on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 07:40:35 PM EST

Please report where the "flow of Georgians" was a concern. Historically, there had been a great deal of intermarriage between ethnic Georgians and Ossetians and they lived relatively harmoniously side by side except for the 1918 flare up.

Saying that they were making a bid for autonomy might be closer to the truth. However, people make such bids when they have a reasonable chance for success and that chance passed back in 1992 (which is why there has been peace) until Russia decided to escalate its interest in the region in recent years (which is why there is now conflict).

I see it in no other way: Russia's current influence only increased tension in what was a stabilizing situation. Perhaps they served a neutral purpose at one time, but not in years.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
you forget (none / 0) (#158)
by vivelame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:39:32 AM EST

the 1991 flare-up, when, after obtaining independance, Georgia revoked any tiny little bit of same independance from South Ossetia, which didn't go down well.
Maybe South Ossetians have now a hard time trusting their Georgian cousins.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
not forgotten (none / 0) (#167)
by Liar on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:33:34 PM EST

that's what was meant by their bid for autonomy. As for Georgia revoking any tiny bit of independence, I guess any number of the proposals by Georgia to make Ossetia autonomous don't count as even tiny bits of independence?

Still, sausolito is, mis-representing their concerns. He was making the argument that Ossetians feel that the Georgian population was going to overrun the land and overwhelm them by their numbers, the implication being that the Georgians would do to the Ossetians what the Japanese did to the Ainu, the Americans to the Indians, the English to the Scots, etc.

The Georgians don't want to, and the Ossetians aren't generally complaining about that--maybe the odd nutbar is, but they don't want their own country in order maintain racial integrity. They're relatively OK with Georgians. They just don't want to be ruled by them.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
you mean, every (none / 0) (#168)
by vivelame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:43:59 PM EST

proposal made after the 1991 bid to just kill them failed?
They may have been perceived to be in bad faith. Besides, by then, the Ossetians liked it better totally free from Georgia. And, yeah, i don't think they were afraid of being overrun by georgians. but the definitely (and, one can bet, even more so by now if it was at all possible) DO NOT WANT Georgia.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
not sure exactly what you mean (none / 0) (#173)
by Liar on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 03:07:16 PM EST

too nuanced to know exactly what you're saying.

After 1991 and until 2004, Georgia and South Ossetia were experiencing a prolonged ceasefire. I'm not sure what further bids they made that Georgia crushed. However, in 2003, one things changed: a cooperative-with-Russia Shevardnadze was forced to turn over the presidency to a strongly pro-NATO Saakashvili. From that point forward, you begin to see a lot of covertly hostile activities from Russia including spies and deportation, the refusal of education for Georgian children in russian military schools, etc.

From what I've seen, the present unpleasantness first broke out when Georgia closed down a popular market that was a center for tax-free trade as well as for the smuggling of guns and drugs. Is that really a casus belli for independence?

Look a little northward though and you would see a more interesting reaction: Russia began sending in military convoys and the Duma recognized South Ossetia.

I'm not sure where to come down in the Ossetian/Georgian debate. Both president Saakashvili and Kokoity seemed eager to come to a diplomatic resolution. From what I see, Russia stands in the way of that.


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
You've lived in Georgia (none / 0) (#134)
by bodza on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 07:05:32 PM EST

You can't really be objective can you? Your later counterfeiting quip shows that.

Also, geopolitics has moved on and alliances, roads and pipelines that either didn't exist or were of little consequence have come into play.
--
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Émile Zola

[ Parent ]

objectivity (3.00 / 3) (#136)
by Oblom on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 07:21:17 PM EST

I wasn't telling you my point of view, I was telling facts. There is no angels over there. Everybody contributed their part. The break up of soviet union and what happened thereafter in this region (georgia, armenia, azerbajan) was a really big mess that will keep rolling for years to come.
About Georgian offers for conflict resolution over past few years you can google yourself. My objectivity or luck of it can't influence the results of the all mighty google.
The pipeline is going through Georgia. Ossetians have nothing to do with it. Russians are interested in it (the tried to buy it but was refused).

[ Parent ]
Facts (none / 0) (#138)
by bodza on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 07:56:46 PM EST

Actually Georgians want Ossetians back in one piece.
That would be why they are shelling them. "They" and "Them" can probably refer to any of the combatants at present.
They offered Ossetians (and Abkhazians) very wide autonomy within Georgia (don't remember all the glory details) but were told to f*&^ off. Georgians had enough of bloodshed in late 80s and beginning of 90s.
Ahh, but the truth is in those glory [sic] details you no longer remember. Look, i don't know enough about this situation to know whether you are right or wrong but I can tell that your view of what are the facts of the situation is coloured by your exposure to media and the Georgian community while you lived there. Your response is emotional and thus suspect.
I lived there at those "happy" days.

And had you lived in South Ossetia, maybe you would have a different view of the facts today. As I said in my first post, this is a fucked up situation on all sides and no one who has intervened to date has done so for the benefit of people who live in the affected region.

Now I've had a look at the archives and seen that the last time you crawled out from under your rock was to defend Israel against the Palestinians. I guess they were offered everything and said "Fuck off" too? I'm sorry but I've had to move you from culturally misguided all the way into partisan astroturfer.
--
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Émile Zola

[ Parent ]

facts (3.00 / 2) (#143)
by Oblom on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 01:03:36 AM EST

Ahh, but the truth is in those glory [sic] details you no longer remember.
Come on, do you really expect me to remember every news story that i read ? especially if it was 2 years ago ? Quick link from google eurasianet . Dated 2005: In September of 2004, Saakashvili, during his appearance at the United Nations’ General Assembly, launched a public campaign for a negotiated solution, in which economic development would serve as the primary mechanism for lasting peace. In January, he unveiled an initiative that offered South Ossetia broad autonomy under a federation-like political framework.

He also repeated same thing at August 7th, but it only increased the shelling of georgian villages photo from georgia village at august 5th

is coloured by your exposure to media
To which media exactly ? I read international media, russian, georgian, ukranian, israeli and just blogs of people who happen to be visiting those areas.
i lived also in soviet union, ukraine and currently live in israel and was exposed to bunch of other communities through europe. does it automatically makes me not fit for commenting on any issues related to this states ?
Now I've had a look at the archives and seen that the last time you crawled out from under your rock was to defend Israel against the Palestinians. I guess they were offered everything and said "Fuck off" too?
You wanted to drag this one out too ? To return to the days when kuro5hin was somewhat active then today ? Anyhow, I write up when I have something to say or have something to contribute to discussion cause i might have some information that isn't obtainable through conventional media

[ Parent ]
Don't let this guy get under your skin (none / 0) (#152)
by Liar on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:25:11 AM EST

For one, I appreciate your comments. Even the best of us here can only armchair quarterback this situation. Your experience is probably uniquely appropriate on this board for contributing to this story.

Out of curiousity, what is your background? Russian jew?


I admit I'm a Liar. That's why you can trust me.
[ Parent ]
Background (none / 1) (#153)
by Oblom on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 09:41:10 AM EST

Background, well... born in Kiev. Mostly jew. A bit ukranian. Moved to Tbilisi at 1986. From there to israel at 1993.
Follow rather close Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, their press, online communities, blogs, etc.

[ Parent ]
Also: flee to Russia or die was a bit strong (none / 1) (#135)
by bodza on Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 07:08:25 PM EST

It's more like "Don't expect to keep your autonomy now that your backwater has income-generating capacity. If that's a problem, please flee to Russia or die."
--
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Émile Zola

[ Parent ]
Nobody really knows (3.00 / 4) (#142)
by eavier on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 12:46:17 AM EST

whats going on over there because the disinformation coming out of both camps is intense.

My take is this:

I think the Georgian President is a future Hague visitor. The guy ordered volley after volley of high incendiary to be dropped on to South Ossetia's capital. To do that to what is technically, your countrymen, is none other than genocide plain and simple.

Secondly, having Russian 'Peacekeepers' as the neutral stabilising force in the South Ossetian capital, (techically remember, Georgia) was never a good idea in the first place. Its no news that Georgia and Russia haven't been the best of pals since the break up of the Soviet Union and the two countries have never liked each other's leaderships. Why was there never a multi-national UN force in there acting as a voice of reason from the start?

Thirdly, this has got to be giving western governments and oil companies, especially BP, the shits. If Russia takes the Georgian capital, then control of the BTC falls with it, taking away an important link to non Middle Eastern oil. Lack of that supply will only serve to push oil prices back up.

Fourth. The Bear is back. While he's been turning the taps on and off to Eastern Europe for the last couple of years and generally making 'we're back' noises, this is the first foriegn adventure Mother Russia has undertaken off its own soil since the end of the USSR. Invading a sovereign nation, even in a humanitarian guise, is a big deal. It makes waves and scares folks back into a cold war mentality that we'd happily left.

Finally, that whole area is a minefield of religious and cultural identities. I have no doubt that if it wasn't a) close to Europe & b) land that borders an important piece of oil real estate, nobody would care internationally apart from the poor souls there. Selfishly, it further makes the case that we should be rapidly transitioning to the best of our abilities from a oil economy to something more sustainable.

And if we did, then our concerns in such areas as Georgia and South Ossetia would hopefully be more altruistic toward the people living there and less tolerant of decisions made by its leaders.

Anyway, I'll be in Constanta on the 6th Sept. If its still going then, I'll let you know what the fireworks show is like in the distance.

Whatever you do, don't take it into your house. It's probably full of Greeks. - Vampire Zombie Abu Musab al Zarqawi

Ufology Doktor in da house

there were russian (none / 0) (#156)
by vivelame on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:35:47 AM EST

AND georgian peacekeepers here, under russian command.
the russians seems pretty pissed of because, according to them, georgian peacekeepers shot at them and their barracks.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
From russian press (none / 0) (#144)
by Oblom on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 01:40:45 AM EST

Journal Ogoniok, edition of July 28th - August 3d : Crossing Russian-Abkhazian border only increases out fears. All of sudden drivers are asked to keep right and convoy of 10 military tracks crosses into Abkhazia through border without stopping and checkpost. Now the mainly transport fuel for military equipment. The equipment itself moved in a couple of weeks ago. Military convoys and trains with tanks and armored vechicls were incoming into Abkhazia night and day. To hide something in Abkhazia is hard, so on internet forums there is descussions how many cars with tanks was moved in, to the Gaal region close to border with Georgia: 45 or 50. During last month were brough in such amount of fuel and weapons that can sustain peacekeepers for a few years of conflict. Peacekeeper colonel complains that he hadn't saw his wife for a month already cause he "spends on highway nights and days". "Something is going to happen, something will happen" says he while shaking his head.


I must disagree (2.83 / 6) (#155)
by jubal3 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:01:52 AM EST

Not with your analysis of what happened, just with your conclusion.

First, the whole region of the Caucasus and the Blah-kans is a festering hellhole of ethnic squabbles and fights over what happened 300-500 years ago. Only the fucking Arabs could could match this level of stupidity...but I digress.

Georgia itself has been a part of Russia for a VERY long time, and is strategically located on the black sea. One look at a map should tell you why the Russians were loathe to let it go in the first place when the USSR broke up. (Remember your history, this was not a happy "go-your-own-way" kind of thing). In fact, a lot of us were wondering at the time if Russia would pull a full-on Chechnya there.

As to the Ossetia region, again, look at a map. It's a great big chunk out of the border region of Georgia, who rightfully is very concerned about defensible borders. The South Ossetia region is not just a chunk, but it's also on the wrong side of the Caucasus mountains (for the Georgians) which is a natural defensive barrier against the Russians. (Not that Georgia is going to hold off the Ruskies there, but they could sure as hell make it painful to get across those mountain passes)

Yes, the Georgians took one hell of a risk trying to take back the region. What they were hoping for was a fait accompli, after which they would try to get a better deal then they had, as well as a nice chunk of the territory BACK.

Who was right? Depends on your point of view I guess. The Russians had made the place pretty much a garrison state, and have been doing everything they could to make life tough on the Georgians since it broke away. -The idea of Russian "peace-keepers" is Orwellian in its self-contradiction.

Resurgent Russian ultra-nationalism fueled by oil money and rife with rule of Kleptocrats and former KGB types should make everyone nervous.
Add in the  piplines for a little extra tension all around and you have one hell of a mess on your hands no matter who's "side" you take.

I don't have an answer for any of this. It's a hell of a situation, and tbh, I'm not sure that in the long run, everyone wouldn't be better served by the larger states gobbling up the tiny ethnic shitholes and giving them semi-autonomy.

Georgia is large enough that it's a plausible nation-state, but to be an independent nation as anything other than Russia's bitch probably isn't likely in the long-run. I'm reminded of the U.S and Mexico's relationship, although the Russians have in my mind, a far more reasonable claim to make Geogia a client state than the U.S. did or does with Mexico.

Independence for a lot of these places just guarantees their people perenial poverty, since they don't have the resources to do anything but be poor, shitty places to live.

But it seems every fucking tribe in the region of more than 10,000 people just HAS to be independent, and it's hard to justify denying self-determination to anyone, no matter how stupid the reasons for it.

I tend toward the Russians about Georgia for two reasons: the first is geographic, second is the idea of Georgia trying to get NATO membership. If you don't understand why that freaked out the Russians, you don't have a clue about the situation.

Hell of a mess. As to who was "right" in the latest scuffle...I think it's hard to make a call. Neither party has clean hands.


***Never attribute to malice that which can be easily attributed to incompetence. -HB Owen***

factoids (none / 1) (#172)
by Timothy McVeigh s buttchip on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 03:00:57 PM EST

Some factoids I don't see here that I would've expected form dailyshin since you guys are so smart:

  • the Wired Magazine observations of US training and supplying with surplus equipment. Seems like US is always training soldiers somewhere (all those s. american militaries for example.) must be good for law & order i guess to make nation states more better at violence.
  • leading to .. Georgia is only 4.6 million population but they are 3rd in Iraq
  • Georgia was on schedule for NATO in maybe September. Seeing as how the hostilities are backing off that still will happen. Uh great. NATO and KGB 2.0 are eye to eye now.
  • The great .ge Internet blackout. I guess Slashdot covered that sort of. Without figuring out how they did it. Was it backhoes over fiber optic lines or what?

I don't have any original analysis. Just thought I'd bounce those observations over here.

I was looking over the maps of federated Russia. Surprising how farking large it still is. 3rd largest for resources.

"I was looking over the maps of federated Rus (none / 1) (#192)
by circletimessquare on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:35:29 PM EST

sia. Surprising how farking large it still is."

look, someone trying to comment intelligently on the situation who is surprised to find out that russia is large

FAIL

must be a product of the american education system


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Gentle reader, (none / 0) (#174)
by HANDEL on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 05:49:59 PM EST

I write to tell you of an unpalatable truth. It is my contention that your character is to be tested in the most extreme way imaginable.

Our leaders are about to fail us in the most final way possible. We are now presently lock-step in the endgame. Rest assured that you had no influence, the die had already been cast.

You will, in a timeline that may be only be on the scale of weeks or months, be faced with a stark choice, something with only the subtlety of two options and their direct consequence. Such a decision is far removed from the universal human condition of being party to the consequences of a million little personal and extrinsic decisions. It happens in one turn, on one flip of the coin.

Yours will be the choice between life or death. If you are astute, you will be, de facto, faced with that decision. With practical steps available to support either choice, most of them unappealing to say the least.

Those two options carry with them characteristically grim implications, but if a hierarchy of preference is to be established, the conclusions are not foregone;

"Die". For City-dwellers, this offers instant extinction. Head for the nearest, largest open space. Get up a tall building. Or make your own independent arrangements ahead of time. This is just a small subset of the options available to those willing to die, in the context of nuclear holocaust. Very little in the way of prior planning is required, and your imagination is the only limit.

"Live".

Friend, I must urge you to look above once more, to your previous option. You owe it to yourself and what family you may belong to, to consider what you would be surviving into. What survives, has to be worth it. The future you would occupy would be of the bleakest existence, and yet it would be irresponsible to detract from the essence of your decision. Yours would be future to shape, and it would be very much down to you to create it. You will never have a more direct opportunity to determine the future. Gone would be the division of labour, but labour itself would be far from absent. It would be the very definition of your - our - being, whether carolled by rifle-point or by the instinctive will to survive. A harsh life, of the utmost importance.

Look around you at where you live. It's not necessarily where you work, but where you live. The people you know there, the people you see. Who do you love? Who loves you? Do you love your country? That love will be tested deeply. If the forces of authority persist after the fact, you will be tasked with the reconstruction of your country, and as such, possibly the restoration of the very society which led to that point which begat its very foundations. And if they don't, reconstruction would be your - our - charge anyhow. It just would be, whether by cause or effect. Agrarian feudalism would be where we would be left at.

Know what you want from life. Know whether you wish to live, or to die, and act accordingly. Recognise the point at which your opinion counts, and when it will not.

Medvedev's done screwing around (none / 0) (#175)
by d0ink on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 06:01:46 PM EST

he's deployed the fat Russian version of Sam Fisher.  expect many dead guards to be hidden in shadows.

for those who like the armchair analysis (3.00 / 2) (#179)
by balsamic vinigga on Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 10:39:32 PM EST

with some rational thought and fact checking here you go

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
Isn't it clear that this is the USA's fault? (2.50 / 4) (#190)
by A Bore on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:27:39 PM EST

It's amazing just how many conflicts can ultimately be traced back to the corrupt and imperialistic United States of America, and its decadent, deranged and psychopathic citizens that infest discussion boards like this.

Let's face it, all rational observers state the USA has, up until recently, been the major militaristic player in the world, interfering across the globe in nationstates' business to further its own military and economic ends. South Ossetia was to be no different from the CIA-instigated Orange revolution in Ukraine.

Here, good, calm men like Saakashvili have listened to, or been coerced by, the power mad ramblings of deranged American advisors, werewolves in a full moon obsessed by bloodlust and burning the world. Saakashvili has paid the price for this, having been forced into premature and unwinnable conflicts as a US proxy, through promises of NATO membership if he succeeded.

No matter where you look, the cancerous American influence is eating away at immune cells of rationality. All the troubles in the world can be traced back, like a fuse, to the sociopathic bombmonsters of America, they are responsible for everything. And yet they will never admit it because they are frothing, rabid, psychopathic parasites.

you may be trolling. joking (none / 0) (#191)
by circletimessquare on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:33:07 PM EST

but there are people who actually believe that

look at this thread:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=646219&threshold=3&commentsort=1& ;mode=nested&cid=24603499

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Yeah (none / 1) (#211)
by regeya on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:04:13 PM EST

I thought (or at least hoped) it was a brilliant parody of some of the things I've been seeing lately; it doesn't take much digging to find people who honestly believe that all the problems in the world can ultimately be traced back to American Empire and that a collapse of the United States, as soon as possible, will make the world a shiny, happy place. What a load.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]
[ Parent ]

why are you an apologist for american imperialism? (none / 0) (#212)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:12:59 PM EST

(lame attempt at humor)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
armchair analysis: europe sucks american cock (1.50 / 2) (#193)
by circletimessquare on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 12:43:07 PM EST

throughout the last 15 years, after the fall of the soviet empire, europe has increasingly plotted its own course, away from washington dc. this is natural: europe didn't need the usa anymore, the soviet threat was dead

now what do we see? we see a neoimperialist russia invading an outpost of european style liberalism on the black sea, and shutting down oil pipelines that fuel european cars and heat european houses

so naturally, we shall see europe huddling up against the usa again in the near future for protection from the bear waking up from hibernation

for example had bush invaded iraq in 2008 instead of 2003, AFTER the resurgence of russia, rather than before, you would see france, germany, etc., dutifully falling in line and supporting that with troops, rather than vocally distancing themselves. why? because suddenly EUROPE NEEDS THE USA AGAIN

europeans who hate the usa: be prepared to grow beet red in the face and throw food at your television. because what you will see there is merkel offering obama or mccain shoulder rubs, and sarkozy renaming french fries freedom fries: kowtowing to the next american president in ways you dislike, stifling all voices in your country that run antiamerican

europe has to do that again. its 1988 again, in geopolitical terms

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4534358. ece?print=yes&randnum=1218813676860

Once again, the Europeans, and their friends in the pusillanimous wing of the US Left, have demonstrated that, when it come to those postmodern Olympian sports of synchronized self-loathing, team hand-wringing and lightweight posturing, they know how to sweep gold, silver and bronze.

There's a routine now whenever some unspeakable act of aggression is visited upon us or our allies by murderous fanatics or authoritarian regimes. While the enemy takes a victory lap, we compete in a shameful medley relay of apologetics, defeatism and surrender.

The initial reaction is almost always self-blame and an expression of sympathetic explanation for the aggressor's actions. In the Russian case this week, the conventional wisdom is that Moscow was provoked by the hot-headed President Saakashvili of Georgia. It was really all his fault, we are told.

What's more, the argument goes, the US and Europe had already laid the moral framework for Russia's invasion by our own acts of aggression in the past decade. Vladimir Putin was simply following the example of illegal intervention by the US and its allies in Kosovo and Iraq.




The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

The US is just stupid talk (none / 1) (#195)
by alba on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 02:19:39 PM EST

Military possibilities are extremely limited.
Live with it.

In contrast the economic prospects of the European Union are very seductive to the Wild East.

[ Parent ]

so when russia marches into poland (none / 1) (#196)
by circletimessquare on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 08:59:19 PM EST

repeat that

sure, the economics are seductive. they can raise natural gas rates five fold and europe will still pay to fuel russian armies. very seductive!

you watch, europe will kowtow to the usa, they will bolster military spending

you watch. mark this thread, 6 months time, you'll see


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You can do better (none / 1) (#197)
by alba on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 05:00:30 AM EST

Poland is member of NATO since 1999.
The Russians did not like it, but all in all they took their defeat in style.
According to the rules an attack on Poland is now an attack on NATO, i.e. it will be defended by nukes.

In contrast Georgia is one of those pseudo-democratic countries without real friends that is up for grabs.
Just like Serbia, Afghanistan or Iraq.

Perhaps, if the Bush administration had not lost all credibility by lying to the UN, disregarding the Geneva convention and then fucking up militarily there would be popular support for EU membership or NATO membership.
But right now any vote on these issues would bomb.

You will have to do much better propaganda if you want to change that, i.e. convince people that Georgia is a country worth our aid payments and the life of our soldiers.

[ Parent ]

why is that up to bush? (none / 1) (#198)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:13:10 AM EST

georgia is not in southeast asia, its european, its more european than turkey for one. england gets its st. george banner via the crusades, via georgian veneration of the saint. the history of georgia is the history of europe

but go ahead do nothing. the usa doesn't suffer for that, europe does

poland just signed a missile deal with the usa, and russia promised severe punishment

the bear is out of hibernation. go ahead and ignore it if you want. its not the usa that will suffer for that

the usa, if it is smart, should take a backseat on this one. let europe take the lead here. see exactly what strongly worded letters and soft power does when faced with the hard power of slavic nationalist petrodollar paid troops on the ground angry about kosovo

go ahead, act like you have nothing to lose here. go ahead, see how far it gets you


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

delusional bullshit warrior (none / 1) (#199)
by alba on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:50:47 PM EST

In 1989 the European Union had twelve members.
Then the Warsaw Pact collapsed.
Now the EU has 27 members and 480 million inhabitants.

We are not under siege by the Russian Empire, it's the other way round.
We are not in dire need of space and markets, we just need to consolidate the new territories.
And the last thing we need is another multi billion dollar military expedition in Asia.

It's still the economy, stupid.

[ Parent ]

you keep saying that (none / 1) (#200)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 04:02:03 PM EST

don't mind me friend, surely russian imperialism is a mirage that will melt away on its own, and represents no threat to you in the interim

right? ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

You overestimate your importance (3.00 / 2) (#201)
by alba on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 04:14:24 PM EST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_federations_by_military_expen ditures

Trust me, we can handle Russia on our own.



[ Parent ]
i don't think the usa is more powerful (1.50 / 2) (#202)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 05:20:48 PM EST

i just think the usa has a better attitude than the un

i think that europe, as tanks are driving into kiev, will be arguing amongst themselves whether or not shooting back might offend the russians


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Liberated by the US means one thing: (3.00 / 2) (#203)
by alba on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 05:44:54 PM EST

Bombed to pieces.

Should the Kremlin ever decide to invade Ukrain then they have the choice between occupation by the Russians or annihilation by the Americans.

The best alternative is to cut a deal, i.e. to go the way of the European Union.

[ Parent ]

see that's your problem (none / 1) (#204)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 06:00:32 PM EST

follow your thinking through:

"The best alternative is to cut a deal, i.e. to go the way of the European Union."

in your scenario, there are tanks sitting in kiev

ok

what meaning is supposed to be derived from "going the way of the eu"

let's review your scenario again: there are russian tanks in kiev, and you find that unacceptable

good

now for the magical part: how exactly are you going to have them removed, oh great and wise euro?

that's why you see poland and now ukraine running to sign military agreements with the usa

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=ukraine%20poland%20missiles&um=1& ;ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn

and, if russian tanks DO roll into kiev, then the next wave of countries, including germany, will be rushing to sign agreements with the usa

where are you? france? britain?

it must be nice to last in line to swallow your ignorance and face the reality of a gun pointed at your face before you pick up one of your own


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

False dilemma (none / 1) (#205)
by alba on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 06:57:37 PM EST

Cutting a deal means to persuade the Russians to stay out of Ukraine.
If that means that NATO also has to stay out--well, that's what deals are about.
We have won 10 former Warsaw Pact members.
There is no need to get greedy.

Unless you are the US, that is.
I bet you are willing to defend the freedom to drive SUVs down to the last European city.


[ Parent ]

hilarious (none / 1) (#206)
by circletimessquare on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 09:25:39 PM EST

i'll tell you what, i won't argue with you anymore

i'll let a ukranian, or a pole, or a georgian explain to you the difference between soft power and hard power, and how on the fringes ofd the russian empire, there are only vassals or enemies

you're quite the fool in the ivory tower, walled off from the reality of what you talk about

i'll simply sit back, and watch and laugh from afar

oh the wake up call you are going to get ;-)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

My father was born in the Russian sector (none / 1) (#207)
by alba on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:44:22 AM EST

The eastern part of Austria was occupied by Russian troops after '45.
Being ten times smaller than Germany a separation similar to FRG/GDR would have left two micro-states unable to survive.
Instead a deal was made with the Soviets.
The Red Army left in 1955 and Austria became unified, democratic and neutral.
Just like Finland membership in the EU was possible only after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact.

And life as an officially non-aligned country had it's thrills.
In 1956 (Hungary) and 1968 (Czechoslovakia) Russian tanks followed fleeing insurgents right to the border--and it was not certain that they would stop.

We know how it is like at the fringes of the Soviet empire.
We know how it is to be occupied by foreign troops.
We know that sometimes endurance is the only option.

And you are just full of shit.

[ Parent ]

what a putz (none / 1) (#208)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:52:54 AM EST

"We know that sometimes endurance is the only option."

translation:

we'll let someone else take the risks of defiance and resistance, we'll let someone else do the hard work

and then, we'll enjoy the fruits of their efforts, and claim our philosophy of inertia and acceptance in the face of totalitarianism was the attitude that carried the day

what a blind retard

your edification of your backgorund only serves to further define your ignorance


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

There is nothing the Americans can do in Georgia (3.00 / 2) (#209)
by alba on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:36:22 AM EST

The tough talk is just to cover that up.
By the way, the uneven distribution of risk is the very reason the US is distrusted.
You have a habit of light headedly fucking up far away places because you feel safe across the ocean.
Just ask the Turks how they feel about the establishment of a de-facto independent Kurdish state.

[ Parent ]
(snicker) (none / 1) (#210)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:01:01 PM EST

the usa isn't on the hook for this friend, the eu is

its not my winter heating that will be shut off

the eu does something, the eu does nothing, whatever. the eu has the most to gain and lose here on georgia, not the usa

its clear form your attitude that doing nothing is the name of the game

ok, fine, good for you

i guess you haven't studied history i guess and doing nothing when naked aggressino makes land grabs. look up "sudetenland"

and, btw, about your swipe at usa: its far better to oppose imperialist assholes when they are far away, rather than on your border. you can fight someone when they are small and far away, or when they are large and up close. but what you don't get to choose is not to fight them

well, you obviously think you can choose not to fight. that russian aggression will just fade away of its own accord

so you just keep making excuses for inaction as the russians find bullshit reasons to keep expanding again a la 19th century imperialism

i'm not the one on the line here, suit yourself, do nothing

as you say, russia is far away and distant from me

xoxoxoxox


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

*sigh* (none / 1) (#213)
by alba on Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 02:47:57 PM EST

the usa isn't on the hook for this friend, the eu is

its not my winter heating that will be shut off

In contrast to some countries in the east the West always payed market prices for Russian oil and gas. This means that either:
a) the same money will bye the same stuff somewhere else
b) the stuff is out of stock and no amount of money will help.
Anyway, in a free, capitalistic society the proprietor is not obliged to sell.

But let's assume that Russia indeed stops selling just to be evil: What exactly can you do against that?
March against Moscow and succeed where Napoleon and Hitler failed?

i guess you haven't studied history i guess and doing nothing when naked aggressino makes land grabs. look up "sudetenland"

In 1946 the Sudetendeutschen where expelled by Czechoslovakia under Edvard Beneš, i.e. before the communists took over.
For the sake of peace Germany and Austria have waived all claims against this episode of ethnic cleansing.
In return the new members of the EU should also abstain from revanchism.
It seems that they still have a few lessons to learn in this regard.

so you just keep making excuses for inaction as the russians find bullshit reasons to keep expanding again a la 19th century imperialism

Look at a map dated 1990, and look at a recent map. And then tell me with a straight face that Russian imperialism is on the rise.



[ Parent ]
dude you're fucking hilarious (none / 0) (#215)
by circletimessquare on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 10:01:12 AM EST

"But let's assume that Russia indeed stops selling just to be evil: What exactly can you do against that?"

well you obviously have the answer to that: do nothing. you never need to oppose aggression. that's the most obvious lesson from world history (rolls eyes)

"In 1946 the Sudetendeutschen where expelled by Czechoslovakia under Edvard Beneš, i.e. before the communists took over.
For the sake of peace Germany and Austria have waived all claims against this episode of ethnic cleansing."

glorious. the aggressors of wwii are the victims. how could i not have seen this sort of relativism coming from you?

"Look at a map dated 1990, and look at a recent map. And then tell me with a straight face that Russian imperialism is on the rise."

gee i don't know, but the map sure has changed since august 8, 2008 ;-)

Russia has vowed to respond to the signing of a US-Poland missile defence deal and "not only by diplomatic protests".

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200882115226859271.html

please note the media source i used for that quote: a known jingoistic american neocon propaganda machine

(snicker)


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Go read a book (none / 0) (#216)
by alba on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 05:00:46 PM EST

Just doing nothing is less ridiculous than talking tough and then doing nothing.

According to your logic Jack Ruby is not a murderer because his victim was a criminal.

Speaking of Kennedy: surely the US reaction in the Cuban Missile Crisis qualifies as "not only by diplomatic protests".

And my recommended reading for you is Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations".

[ Parent ]

thanks for brining up cuba and the usa (none / 0) (#217)
by circletimessquare on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 06:05:49 PM EST

so you wish to tell me what russia is doing in georgia is ok because if its ok for the usa to do it, to combat hyporcisy it has to be ok for russia

silly me, i believe what was done in cuba AND georgia is wrong, based on allegiance to principles, not geopolitics

see i'm kind of weirdo. i think that imperialism is wrong. whether from russia or the usa

you apparently believe russian imperialism is ok, because some other asshole thinks american imperialism is ok

zzz


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

ahah (none / 0) (#225)
by vivelame on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:54:42 AM EST

"see i'm kind of weirdo. i think that imperialism is wrong. whether from russia or the usa"
no you don't.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
imperialism is wrong, asshole, from anyone (none / 0) (#228)
by circletimessquare on Sun Aug 31, 2008 at 11:36:31 PM EST

where the hell do you get off saying i think otherwise?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
We live with it (2.50 / 2) (#218)
by svampa on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 09:32:37 PM EST

because suddenly EUROPE NEEDS THE USA AGAIN

When elephants fight, the grass cries.. That is my feeling towards USA and Russia.

I don't know if we need help from USA, but I don't expect it further than its own agenda. If USA wants to fight in European soil will help us. That is all.

we see a neoimperialist russia invading an outpost of european

That is what you see, not what I see. (and, as far as I know, not what most Europeans see)

Russia didn't invaded Iraq, or invaded Afghanistan or tried to build bases in Poland. USA is surrounding Russia, and Russia, like an old lion, is showing it still has fangs and claws. And we European are in the middle.

Be honest, what would USA have done if Russia had Built an anti-missile shield in Cuba or included Cuba in the Warsaw Treaty? Those are the feelings of Russia towards the new bases in Poland and Georgia joining to NATO. And Russia is not a small European country, it is still a 500 Lb Gorilla, or at least a 400 Lb one, and has done the logical movement

See this cartoon You may say it is harasing USA (because of its liberty), but I think it's quite realistic.

Probably you haven't heard it in USA news, but The current Georgia president has multiplied by 40 its military budget (Hurray for Saakashvili, that is what poor countries need) -all American and Israeli weapons- and Georgia did the first shot, 7th Aug Georgia bombed Southern Ossetia's Capital with 1500-2000 dead. There were UN troops formed by Ossetians, Russian and Georgian soldiers, the Georgina soldiers shot their fellows. there are more refugees in North Ossetia (in Russia) than in other places. They are more afraid of Georgian government than of Russian government. Most people in South Ossetia is Russian so Russia had the perfect excuse. Russia stroke back.

The problem is that both, Russia and USA, are fighting for the control of Caspian oil and gas. The oil pipes from Caspian sea must pass through Russia, or Iran or Georgia. Russia and Iran are out of USA's control and what USA doesn't want is that Russia full controls European energy. In that case Europe could be more fond to Russia than to USA.

How do I feel about Russia controlling Europe energy? Very scared. How do I feel about USA controlling Europe energy? scared. I prefer former situation: USA and Russian watching one each other and letting the oil and gas flowing to Europe. I admit that it was an unstable situation, but was good for us. USA has opened hostilities using Georgia as proxy, things won't be the same anymore.

In a few years (10, even before) there will be shortage of energy, and both will save the energy for themselves unless they need us, but in the end both will leave Europe in the lurch, dry of oil

The "world policeman" concept is an USA's concept not anybody else's concept. It is a policeman that is attorney, writes the laws, and passes the bills and when the judge raises objections says "If you don't support me you will become irrelevant". Would you trust in such policeman?. I wouldn't either. I don't.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think Russia or China are better than USA. But I don't think USA is gentle lamb either. Balance of power is better, but USA is moving to get advantage. That is what I reproach to USA.

Powerful countries behave like gangsters, weak countries behave like prostitutes (Stanley Kubrick).

Sure.We, Europeans, are bitches. And Russia, China and USA are gangsters. Perhaps Russia and China are Al Capone and USA is Lucy Lucciano, a more gentle and less violent gangster. but a gangster anyhow.

USA claims that it does it to defend democracy and European interests and security... Sorry I don't buy. Anyhow, who cares? I have to live with it



[ Parent ]
this is incredibly derogatory to russians (none / 1) (#219)
by circletimessquare on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 10:51:38 PM EST

the usa, according to you, is composed of human beings to whom you can find accountability and responsibility with for things going wrong in the world

but russia, on the other hand, is an angry bear. you can't reason with it or expect of it responsible human behavior. it is subhuman, a monster that can only react like a caged beast

i don't believe these things. this is how you describe russians

don't you find your attitude racist towards russians? some sort of european derogatory attitude towards slavs as subhuman? this is the superior attitude of yours i am supposed to be impressed with?

furthermore, acording to you, russian imperialism is ok, because the usa got away with it, so in the spirit of denying hypocrisy, russia should be allowed to get away with it to

huh?

i thought morality and human conscience was about principles

such as: imperialism is wrong, no matter who does it. so condemn the usa for imperialism, and condemn russia for imperialism

but not you. you say: russian imperialism ok, because the usa got away with crimes

this is your sense of morality and right and wrong?

europe is dead


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

and to USA (none / 0) (#220)
by svampa on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:18:13 AM EST

russia is an angry bear. you can't reason with it or expect of it responsible human behavior. it is subhuman,

come on, it is a cartoon.

so in the spirit of denying hypocrisy, russia should be allowed to get away with it to.

When would I be more annoyed? when a mugger gets someones's money or when the priest of my church that is always telling me off grabs someones's money?. Does it means I think that the mugger should be allow to get away?.

In fact, I think both are muggers.

i thought morality and human conscience was about principles

yeah, but relations between countries have nothing to do with morality.

Morality is an agreement of what is good and bad. But principles must be enforced sometimes by laws (enforced by police), sometimes just by public condemn and ostracism. If there is no police and public condemn doesn't implies any drawback, morality and principles are ignored. That is why masters used to forget morality with their servants.

Morality in countries is "What the other nations will do?" "will it damage my interests?"

such as: imperialism is wrong, no matter who does it. so condemn the usa for imperialism, and condemn Russia for imperialism.

That is what I do.

Powerful countries behave like gangsters, weak countries behave like prostitutes (Stanley Kubrick).
Sure.We, Europeans, are bitches. And Russia, China and USA are gangsters.

What I mean is that now Russia is not being imperialist, it is USA who is stepping against Russia.

In the future, Russia may be also an aggressive imperialist, but now, today, it was quite in his home while USA has been moving around and finally has opened hostilities. We could have enjoyed a few years more of peace but USA has pushed its own agenda.

this is your sense of morality and right and wrong?

My sense of morality is that there is no morality at all. Any country is more likely to be sanctioned or invaded because has broke a treaty than because has violated human rights. and the public principles of my country (in private no countries has principles) are the same that USA had in 1970, human rights, and no preventive war, it is USA who has changed its principles.

Russia and USA are kicking one each other, and I'm in the middle, but this time USA has started the row. My principles are survival morality. I suppose that USA principles "because I can" are better, or Russia "Let's wait because I can't now"



[ Parent ]
rlatns betwn countries nothing to do w/ morality? (none / 0) (#221)
by circletimessquare on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 11:19:08 AM EST

i stopped reading there

if you honestly believe that, then you have absolutely no problem with anything the usa has ever done

might makes right, right? no?

if you DO believe the usa has done something wrong, then you have some principles after all

either way, you are obviously incompletely formed. you have incoherence in your thinking to say something as utterly retarded as morality having nothing to do with relations between countries

you are incomplete and inexperienced in life, you have large glaring obvious contradictions in your thinking you need to work out

good luck little kid. but if i were you, i would stop talking about things you are glaringly and woefully illformed to comment on

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

Why they're fighting (none / 1) (#194)
by Corwin06 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 04:09:36 PM EST

Really
"and you sir, in an argument in a thread with a troll in a story no one is reading in a backwater website, you're a fucking genius
--circletimessquare
Russia opened the door (none / 1) (#223)
by redelm on Fri Aug 29, 2008 at 05:56:01 PM EST

Sure, the Georgians have lots to answer for. They provoked the Russians and miscalculated Russian response. Why would the Georgians expect Russian restraint?

Simple: South Ossetia was nominally within the acknowledged borders of Georgia. Russia has always insisted nominal borders be respected, and vigorous decried any outside interference/assistance to separatists. For the most excellent reason that Russia has many vulnerabilities -- areas that would like to separate. Chechnya is but one.

Now Russia has broken that position in the most obvious fashion. And virtually invites western interference, arms supply to rebels. Russia has sown the wind, and will reap a whirlwind. The US, NATO and western powers won't need to do more than tell their arms export watchdogs to go easy. Maybe Russia thinks we're too afraid of al Qaeda or diversion to Iraq.

A chess game, and Russia has made a gambit.



All wrong. (none / 1) (#224)
by vivelame on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:45:56 AM EST

US and EU made that gambit by "liberating" and formally recognizing Kosovo, all the while telling the russians "so what are you going to do about that, uh?".
Oh and.. At the first russian soldier blowing up on an IED or a mine or an AT missile, Russia will say: "well, there are lots of terrorists in Georgia, we have to occupy it, you know, for the War on Terror".

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
Nothing wrong! (none / 0) (#226)
by redelm on Sat Aug 30, 2008 at 01:53:20 PM EST

I'm sorry, but you've offered no facts or argument in refutation of my discussion. If anything, you've merely extended it:

I agree the Russian actions in Georgia are in [delayed} retaliation for western acceptance of Kosovar independence. That annoyed the Russians greatly for it made them appear weak.

The problem for the Russians (and I'm not unsympathetic) is they have the breakaways. There are relatively few breakaways in the west. The Kurds in Turkey are perhaps the biggest exception, followed by the Basques. Then who?

There are severe costs to authoritarianism. Particularly when there are rich friends ouside.



[ Parent ]

Russia did the right thing in Georgia | 229 comments (197 topical, 32 editorial, 1 hidden)
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