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[P]
Dynamic Comment Mode, and Ad Renewals

By rusty in Site News
Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:31:47 AM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

K5's Scoop install just got a pretty large facelift, and while a few things are just bug fixes, there are two features you might find of interest. One is a new comment display mode, called "Dynamic," which uses a pretty nifty javascript hack to let you expand threads dynamically without reloading the whole page. The other is that you can finally renew ads. See below for more details.

Update [2002-4-22 23:9:59 by rusty]: Dynamic mode now comes in two flavors: dynamic minimal and dynamic threaded. They look like normal minimal and threaded, but with dynamic comment expansion. It is way slick. Thanks Joe!


Dynamic mode

If you look in the comment controls bar of this story, you might notice that in the "Display" choices, in addition to Threaded, Nested, Minimal, and Flat, you also can now choose Dynamic mode. If you're running IE 5+ or a Mozilla variant, give it a try. It will show up like threaded, but instead of the reply titles to a comment, it will show you a little right-pointing arrow, and a line like "3 replies [view]". Click the arrow, and it will expand the replies in the existing page, and give you a down-pointing arrow to collapse them again (the arrows are based on pretty common windowmanager list conventions -- hopefully they're obvious). Repeat down the thread to expand further replies.

I'm usually pretty anti-javascript, and against things that are browser-specific, but this struck me as really cool. If it doesn't work in your browser, no great loss, you still have all the display modes you always had. If it does work, some of you might like it.

Credit for this goes to Joe Groff, who did all the work. :-)

Update [2002-4-22 3:39:20 by rusty]: As many of you have pointed out, dynamic mode has a few pretty big flaws at the moment. It doesn't provide enough information about the threads, and doesn't handle new comment marking properly. What I'm going to try to do is convince Starship Trooper to alter it so that there are "Dynamic threaded" and "Dynamic minimal" modes, which would show up just like the current threaded or minimal, but allow you to expand the body of a comment in place on the page. That would be super cool. In the meantime, consider this version a first draft proof-of-concept type thing. I do want to know if it works for you on a browser not mentioned above (IE 5/Moz).

Ad Renewal

Thanks to the pestering of kozubik, hurstdog and I finally got ad renewals done as well. If you go to your ads page, you'll see a "Renew this ad campaign" link next to each of your ads. Click that, enter the number of new impressions you want, and go through payment as usual. It's dead easy.

If your ad has comments attached, the discussion thread will stay live, and will also be bumped up to the top of the Ad section. You can renew any time, after an ad is finished running, or while it's still live.

And yes, bulk ad pre-payment is almost done. :-)

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go close the three million Nedit windows that are open on all of my desktops.

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Dynamic Comment Mode, and Ad Renewals | 156 comments (156 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Just a thought... (4.50 / 2) (#1)
by Chancellor Martok on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:41:34 AM EST

What kind of comments display mode does everyone like to use anyway? I always find that replies to comments are often more interesting than the original comment... so Nested seems to be the only way to go...

Dynamic of course, does look cool, but maybe set the link to more than just the arrow image? e.g.
link 'X replies' as well?

-----
Chancellor Martok  in Sydney, Australia
"Castrate instead. That can surely rehabilitate. I did it volunatrily, and my grades went up!"  -- Sen

i use threaded (none / 0) (#2)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:53:13 AM EST

I tend to go through the top level comments first, rate the ones I have some reaction to, then look through replies for those one by one. I don't know, reading in nested just doesn't work for me.

[ Parent ]
I have mutiple modes (none / 0) (#4)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:57:30 AM EST

I have my prefs set to use nested up to 125 comments, and minimal thereafter.

Speaking of which, I'm going to start bugging Starship Trooper to add another dynamic mode: "Dymanic Minimal". The idea is, it would show up just like minimal, but each comment would have an expand link next to the subject line, so you could expand and collapse them one at a time, in situ. I would probably use that as my main comment mode, personally.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

that would rock:) yay dynamic minimal! [nt] (2.00 / 1) (#5)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:59:10 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Hmm... (4.00 / 1) (#6)
by traphicone on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:01:09 AM EST

If there was a Dynamic Threaded mode, where everything looked just like threaded does now, but clicking a subject line dynamically replaced that entry with the full comment (with threaded style replies nested below)...

Well... I'd probably try and have all your children. Even if you didn't want me to.

<blush>

"Generally it's a bad idea to try to correct someone's worldview if you want to remain on good terms with them, no matter how skewed it may be." --Delirium
[ Parent ]

Dynamic Threaded (3.50 / 2) (#7)
by jasonab on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:06:08 AM EST

If there was a Dynamic Threaded mode, where everything looked just like threaded does now, but clicking a subject line dynamically replaced that entry with the full comment (with threaded style replies nested below)...
Going to have to agree. "2 replies" is nice, but having the subject lines there would be even better.

--
America is a great country. One of the freest in the world. -- greenrd
[ Parent ]
yeah (3.00 / 1) (#10)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:09:11 AM EST

Sorta like a mail/news client, +/- a thread (on the left of it), and expand/collapse a comment by clicking the title.

[ Parent ]
Yeah (3.00 / 1) (#12)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:11:07 AM EST

I might see if he wants to hack the regular dynamic to be like that instead of like this. This version is a first draft. I think both minimal and threaded could be kick-ass as dynamic variants.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
I use (none / 0) (#14)
by rajivvarma on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:16:50 AM EST

Threaded up to 150. For some reason, though, above 150 (or some number near that) K5 becomes "corrupt," doesn't allow me to rate comments, and becomes eventually unreadable. I'm using the latest IE6 version.
Rajiv Varma
Mirror of DeCSS.

[ Parent ]
IE just has memory issues (none / 0) (#18)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:21:24 AM EST

Same thing used to happen to me on big /. pages, but it's never happened to me on k5, though the comment size is the same (/. was smaller when I frequented it). So not quite sure what it is, but I suspect it's related to html document size. I also have this problem in windows when I open 20+ IE windows.. there are all sorts of form problems, among other things.

[ Parent ]
So how did you solve the problem? (none / 0) (#20)
by rajivvarma on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:26:20 AM EST

Did you just switch browsers? Does Mozilla handle big pages well?
Rajiv Varma
Mirror of DeCSS.

[ Parent ]
Had related problems (none / 0) (#40)
by gazbo on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:17:09 AM EST

Never had a problem with K5, or with Slashdot (but *ahem* I'm not allowed to moderate there) but I've come across a similar problem myself as a web developer.

I'm not 100% certain what the cause or solution are, but it seems that after a certain number of buttons are displayed in a form, the form action goes to bollocks; it just appears to reload the page without posting values to the server. This particular problem can be resolved by using mozilla, which is how I proved it was a client issue, but I'd kinda like to find a resolution for it in IE as telling clients 'no, it's a client problem, just use a browser other than the most popular in the world and it'll appear fine'.

As for the page getting corrupted, I have no idea. I've never had a problem like that on IE6/W2K.


-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

many nested comments (none / 0) (#115)
by janra on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 10:06:33 PM EST

I've noticed, in NS4 (I know it sucks, it's all I had at the time) that past a certain number of comments in nested mode it would start to go nuts. After observing and rating, I noticed that it would start to repeat the form, with the same relative location and spacing as higher up on the page, as well as having the new form controls in their proper locations. If I had chosen a rating for a comment in the top part of the page, where the controls weren't repeated, the corresponding repeated control would show the same rating, even though I hadn't touched it. It still submitted the form properly, the main reason it annoyed me was that the form elements would obscure a few words of each comment.


--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.
[ Parent ]
Hmm... (none / 0) (#58)
by Chancellor Martok on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 10:06:47 AM EST

I dunno, I'm using IE6 (6.0.2600.0000.xpclnt_qfe.01827-1803IC with patches Q313675 and Q316059) as well, and it works fine, even with hundreds and hundreds of comments and replies...

Maybe your HTTP connection is timing out or something? Well I guess we'll see who else has problems like this...

-----
Chancellor Martok  in Sydney, Australia
"Castrate instead. That can surely rehabilitate. I did it volunatrily, and my grades went up!"  -- Sen

[ Parent ]
Well (none / 0) (#80)
by rajivvarma on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 12:59:27 PM EST

The connection isn't timing out. It's like IE downloads the web page fine but loads it incorrectly, with the drop-down menus screwed up. It also proceeds to crap-out whenever I scroll down.
Rajiv Varma
Mirror of DeCSS.

[ Parent ]
Hm (none / 0) (#63)
by metropacem on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:10:52 AM EST

That could be the Windows 9x resource limit you're running into, i.e. when the amount of memory all those controls use exceed 64KB the display gets corrupted.

At least I had that problem before I upgraded to Win2k. :)



--
[shiki soku ze kuu]
[ Parent ]
Hmm (none / 0) (#79)
by rajivvarma on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 12:57:33 PM EST

So the only way to fix this problem is to install Win2k?

:)

Rajiv Varma
Mirror of DeCSS.

[ Parent ]
Heh, (none / 0) (#82)
by metropacem on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 01:15:25 PM EST

That would be inconvenient. :p

I don't know about any ways to overcome the resource limit other than limiting the number of controls loaded simultaneously. Maybe someone else out there will chime in with other suggestions?

--
[shiki soku ze kuu]
[ Parent ]

Yep. (none / 0) (#84)
by ambrosen on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 01:17:32 PM EST

Or turn off rating, or not use nested mode.

--
Procrastination does not make you cool. Being cool makes you procrastinate. DesiredUsername.
[ Parent ]
Ah (none / 0) (#107)
by rajivvarma on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 05:42:09 PM EST

But those two modes are that are indispensible to me!

:)

I'll probably just use Mozilla when viewing certain K5 pages to solve the problem.

Rajiv Varma
Mirror of DeCSS.

[ Parent ]
Me too. (none / 0) (#109)
by ambrosen on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 05:49:08 PM EST

Somehow, I grin and bear it. Mozilla got a lot of flack for writing its own widgets, but this is part of the reason that it did it.

--
Procrastination does not make you cool. Being cool makes you procrastinate. DesiredUsername.
[ Parent ]
I've seen this (none / 0) (#140)
by Ziffy on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 11:46:45 PM EST

I've had this happen on /., but only when I have mod points. Because having mod points adds a bazillion drop-down boxes to the page, I think it's something having to do with a too-low limit for boxes, forms, or something in IE6.

[ Parent ]
I use... (none / 0) (#34)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:47:03 AM EST

... threaded and then open new windows to follow threads. Occasionally I'll hit a rate button and then tap Esc real fast so as to not to loose the ratings I've done.



[ Parent ]

same here (5.00 / 1) (#77)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 12:27:08 PM EST

Always been a habit of mine to open new windows, and keep the parent open. I pick a thread, go to first child, then go to end of that tree, then next one attach to first thread, etc.. each point of divergence is a new window.

[ Parent ]
i like slashdot system (none / 0) (#72)
by mikeliu on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:50:12 AM EST

This isn't a troll or anything, I'm serious.

I like the Slashdot comment viewing system, I dunno why it's not available on any of the other sites (Plastic, K5, etc.). I have my Slashdot setup so that everything under 1 is hidden, and everything under 3 is collapsed. All the other popular weblogs force you either to thread everything or collapse everything, no in between like on /. It works so well, and it's so obvious, I'm really surprised no where else has adopted it.

[ Parent ]
uh.. hell no? (none / 0) (#75)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 12:17:43 PM EST

Ratings don't mean anything about whether or not a comment is worthy of my attention. If they did, I might actually read Slashdot. The point is, I read every comment on a story, and I want to read every comment on a story, without regard to other people's ratings.

[ Parent ]
Ratings sorta matter (none / 0) (#76)
by Cro Magnon on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 12:23:41 PM EST

True, I've read Anonymous Coward posting rated 0 that were better than +5 comments. But with the vast quantity of troll/offtopic posts on /. I NEED a way to limit what I see even though I'm missing some worthy posts. On a smaller site like K5, I don't mind seeing all the posts, even the ones that aren't worth seeing.
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
But give us choice... (none / 0) (#133)
by Chancellor Martok on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 10:42:24 AM EST

I think it's pretty much a personal thing... I agree with you in that all the comments are worth reading (generally speaking), but obviously not everyone sees it that way...

So yeah, the option might be nice I guess, and I might use it, as long as unrated comments are still shown... Or maybe even it only cuts out comments that have been rated 2 or less by 8 people or more, or 1 or less by 3 people or more?



-----
Chancellor Martok  in Sydney, Australia
"Castrate instead. That can surely rehabilitate. I did it volunatrily, and my grades went up!"  -- Sen

[ Parent ]
some reactions to dynamic (3.00 / 1) (#3)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:57:16 AM EST

  • The arrow is ugly/doesn't seem to be k5ish.
  • No indication of how many new replies there are.


Arrow, new (4.00 / 1) (#8)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:08:47 AM EST

Driph's making different arrows. He whined that in Mac-weenie land, a closed list has a right-pointing arrow, and an open one has a down arrow. So we're probably going to change to those. And they might be blue.

About the "new" thing-- it should show the number of new comments. I'm not sure why it dosn't seem to. I will have ST look into it.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

it does now:) (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:10:41 AM EST

One minor annoyance.. the state isn't saved, so when I click rate comments, I'm back to top level, and I lose my place. I suspect there isn't an easy solution to this.

[ Parent ]
more state things (5.00 / 1) (#16)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:17:44 AM EST

When you expand a thread past 1, then collapse at parent, then expand again, the things that were expanded are no longer so. This is counterintuitive, I think. If one leaves them expanded, they should stay expanded, even when the parent hides them from view.

[ Parent ]
State (none / 0) (#21)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:27:15 AM EST

The rating thing was always a problem. In this mode, it guess it's a little more so, since if you collapse something your rating probably goes away. To tell you the truth, I have no idea if rating works right with dynamic or not.

The state issue is beyond me. I have little sense of how the javascript works, so whether that's possible or not, who knows.

If it worked like threaded/minimal does now, only expanding individual comments in place, that would fix both problems anyway, I think.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

just tried (none / 0) (#23)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:32:55 AM EST

I expanded the thread to your comment, selected 5, then collapsed and rated - no dice. I think the threaded/minimal is the best solution.. click on parent, it expands body, shows the minimal replies. I think it would be workable to have the hideen comments rateable/state saved, but I haven't really checked the javascript you guys are using (I used to rock at it a few years ago, I'm.. ahem.. rusty now).

[ Parent ]
Rating and state (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:35:43 AM EST

(disclaimer: I am "Starship Trooper", the dynamic comments coder)

I tested rating pretty thoroughly, and it should work fine (besides the loss of structure). Saving the state would be a lot of trouble, and I'm not sure how best to manage that. It would probably require wrapping the page in a frame which holds all the link state objects, which wouldn't be pretty from any point of view :-) There should probably be an option to make the ratings submit button open a new window; this way you can rate, close the new window and continue reading from your old window.
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]

solution? (none / 0) (#28)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:39:17 AM EST

How about have the collapse do a rate all for that thread, and then a rate all for each child.

[ Parent ]
Hey (5.00 / 1) (#30)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:43:25 AM EST

I was hoping you'd show up. Is the account I linked to actually yours here? I didn't know what name you went by on K5. :-/

So how about the ideas for dynamic minimal and dynamic threaded? That would fix basically all the problms with the current implementation, w/r/t new comments and the thread-viewing thing.

By the way, I'm having heaps of fun clicking little arrows here anyway. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Also (none / 0) (#33)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:45:38 AM EST

Why aren't you on #scoop? :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
A half-arsed suggestion (none / 0) (#43)
by gazbo on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:33:40 AM EST

OK, here's the disclaimer: I have not looked at the JS code because cross platform JS code is always a nightmare to comprehend, but here's the suggestion to maintain the comment-tree state anyway:

  1. Have an onload event handler that initialises the appropriate comments to 'expanded'. On the first visit this will do nothing as it will have no list of comments to expand.
  2. Every time a user clicks on the expand arrow, this comment id is added to a serialized list of ids in a hidden form field.
  3. Naturally, when a user collapses a tree, the ids are removed (the serialize implementation is left as an excerise for the reader)
  4. When the ratings values are posted to the server and the server responds with the new page, it is responsible for writing this serialized string back to the initialize function in whatever form you find easiest (i.e. whether you want the processing to be client or server side).
  5. (Step 1 revisited) The init function iterates throught the complete list of comments to expand.
Just to revisit the disclaimer, I have not checked how the code works, and apologise for wasting your time if it's inappropriate.

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

That would work within a page (none / 0) (#45)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:36:53 AM EST

But the problem with rating comments is that it takes you to what your browser considers to be a completely different page, so any secret form fields or object properties get swept away.
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
I think you misunderstand (none / 0) (#47)
by gazbo on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:40:42 AM EST

The reason it is stored in a form field is so that the value can be propagated through the web server. When the server responds to the form action by re-printing the comments page, it takes the serialized post value of expanded comments, re-forms it for the client side initialize function, and then spits that to the page to be triggered onload. So, any rating form action should preserve this state for the next page view.

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

dude, that's perfect!! (none / 0) (#93)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:21:07 PM EST

This solves all the state problems even across reloads. Every cid, that is, every comment would have just one hidden form field, that is submitted on a rate all. Expand calls rate all for the comment they expand, and change the boolean value of the field. Collapse rates the comment, and then recursively all the children. You would then even have your state saved when you went to the thread itself, rather than the story.

[ Parent ]
More arrows (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:50:01 AM EST

There should also be an (X) in a circle matching the collapse/expand arrows for the "Loading..." state. It looks a bit odd to have it jump to a little text "X" then back to an image. I'll grab the latest CVS version and hack something in for this while I work on the dynamic threaded/minimal change.
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
Also... (none / 0) (#17)
by eemeli on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:18:44 AM EST

The number of replies displayed only shows the number of direct replies to a message, not the replies to those replies, and so on.

[ Parent ]
idea (none / 0) (#25)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:35:19 AM EST

The clicky thing doesn't have to be an image, it can be just be colored text. Personally, I'd prefer a clickable +/-.

[ Parent ]
It was (none / 0) (#29)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:41:14 AM EST

The default in Scoop is like that, but I didn't like it here for two reasons. One, without some twiddling, a link that's just a + or a - is almost unclickably small. And two, + and - are already the conventions for hotlist functions. I didn't want to confuse the issue.

I think the new images are pretty, myself.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

gnomeish arrows? (none / 0) (#31)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:43:34 AM EST

I like the stylized arrows they have for the panel, the current ones are um.. jaggy. And triangular.

[ Parent ]
Feature to turn off signatures (3.00 / 1) (#9)
by FattMattP on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:08:50 AM EST

How about a feature to turn off viewing of signatures? I find them highly annoying and very useless. Visually, they are difficult to skip over as people don't always do a good job of separating them from their main post.

I fully support that! (none / 0) (#38)
by Tezcatlipoca on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:57:33 AM EST

I long for the day all signatures are meaningful and add something valuable to our daily lives.
---
To be, or not to be,--that is the question:-- Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune Or to take a
[ Parent ]
Small type... (none / 0) (#41)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:20:08 AM EST

They should really be in a smaller font. Like 10px etc (but using relative sizes so people with large monitors can make it larger). Their is a post a couple of posts above yours, that has sig in small type. It's immediatly obviouse, and is pretty hard to confuse with the message of the post.

[ Parent ]
Ack, (none / 0) (#62)
by fr2ty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 10:22:34 AM EST

I wouldn't like the sigs to disappear. They're annoying sometimes, but better visible than the names in the comment header.

Oops,did I say something embarrassing about my reading habits?
--
Please note that are neither capitals nor numbers in my mail adress.
[ Parent ]
please please please! (none / 0) (#99)
by ethereal on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:27:23 PM EST

See sig :)

Actually, I like funny sigs, but I don't like to read them every single time that a poster posts on a given story or thread. If there was a way to say "only show this guy's sig once per story", then that would be cool. Otherwise, I want to be able to nuke all sigs. Sorry, but I guess I'll just have to miss out on all the k5ers pointing out each others' philosophical failings in their sigs.

At least until they start pointing out mine.

--

Every time you read this, God wishes k5 had a "hide sigs" option. Please, think of the
[
Parent ]

hmm.. (5.00 / 2) (#13)
by boxed on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:16:07 AM EST

This "dynamic" feature sounded way better than it is. I was very disappointed on realizing the following fundamental flaws:
  • The number of replies is not total but on the level just below. This is rather confusing, you should write both.
  • The dynamic mode should be like the threaded mode but with a javascript to show/hide the BODY of the message. The current system totally hides the structure of the comments. The subject-lines should always be visible!


See other comments (none / 0) (#24)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:35:14 AM EST

Ok! I get it!

See the other threads in this discussion. You're right. I guess I should update the article, so you don't all post this comment. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

the other comments.. (none / 0) (#53)
by boxed on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 07:42:01 AM EST

...only mentioned the first of my two points. It's a bit annoying that the update to this article that mentions my second point claims you rusty wrote about it first when I can find no comment by anyone except me from before the update was posted of this idea.

[ Parent ]
Dynamic only seems to tell... (none / 0) (#15)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:17:17 AM EST

... the number of immediate children to a post. One doesn't see and difference between a post that has generated a long multi-branched thread or just a single reply.

This is bad.



Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:24:51 AM EST

It is sub-optimal. I want to revise it so that you see the thread's titles anyway. Hopefully we can make it work like that instead, which would take care of that problem, and also the fact that it doesn't handle new comment marking correctly right now either.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
something like.. (none / 0) (#22)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:27:32 AM EST

(+) Yeah by rusty (1 reply, 1 new), 04/22/2002 03:24:51 AM EST (none / 0)

[ Parent ]
mockup (none / 0) (#42)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:27:53 AM EST

I made a quick mockup of what that rusty comment in the parent would look like expanded.

[ Parent ]
Great (none / 0) (#44)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:34:28 AM EST

That looks perfect. The next version of dynamic comments will hopefully resemble that. :-)
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
Awesome. (none / 0) (#27)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:36:44 AM EST

I look forward to the upgrades.

You wouldn't happen to know why it is making my font size change.



[ Parent ]

What browser are you using? (none / 0) (#50)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:46:03 AM EST

I haven't seen any problem with font mangling before. If you could tell me what browser platform you're using, I'll see if I can do some testing with it.
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
I'm using IE 5.5 (none / 0) (#98)
by Kaki Nix Sain on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:59:13 PM EST

I've got it set to ignore font sizes specified on pages so that I can control them myself.

When I clicked on the little arrow to expand the view of some comments, the font size for the whole page switched to the size just above the one I was useing.

I'd be happy to check and see what the more exact details are under which this occurs, if you aren't able to get the error yourself.



[ Parent ]

Some answers from the author re: dynamic comments (4.75 / 4) (#32)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:45:22 AM EST

OK, I've read through the discussions and most of the issues raised are ones I predicted. Rather than run around replying to everybody separately, I'll just organise everything into a single list:
  • Regarding state: it isn't saved when you expand/collapse a thread, rate, or do anything like that. The implementation of such a thing would probably be prohibitive anyway, and a few people I've talked to seem to prefer that state isn't kept. I'll look into this though.
  • Ratings work fine, despite the loss of thread state.
  • I know that the "n comments, n new" summary is woefully inadequate. I knew people would be jumping at my throat about that from the beginning. This is a rough draft :-) As rusty suggested earlier, it would be better to model dynamic mode after threaded mode, where clicking the "+" next to a subject header opens up the body of that comment. This would also make "dynamic minimal" mode more feasible.
  • In addition to the above, I'd also like to have "Expand all replies" and "Expand full thread" controls of some sort, to open up all the direct replies and the whole discussion respectively. I'm still thinking about UI issues with this and how to best present all those buttons :-)
I think that covers all the questions posed so far; anything I missed?
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

collapse/rate (none / 0) (#36)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:50:12 AM EST

Well, what's your opinion on this?

[ Parent ]
It's a good idea. (none / 0) (#46)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:37:51 AM EST

I'll keep it in mind.
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
One more thing (5.00 / 1) (#37)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:50:17 AM EST

There should be another "collapse" link at the bottom of an expanded thread or comment. If you change it so it works like minimal or threaded, I'd say add a "collapse" link at the bottom of each expanded comment. In the current version it would be btter at the bottom of each thread level. But I sense the current implementation is not long for this world anyway. :-)

Oh, and if the bottom-of-comment collapse link popped you back up so that the "expand" link (newly formed by collapsing a comment) was at the top of the browser, that would be really slick too.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

question (none / 0) (#105)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 05:26:27 PM EST

Hey, Rusty, I was wondering if this is a bad idea, in terms of server load?

[ Parent ]
No (none / 0) (#110)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 06:26:28 PM EST

No, that's a great idea. I think the plan is to do it that way. Basically, if you're in dynamic mode, and you rate a comment, it'll just rate that comment and reload it dynamically. If you set a rating and hide a comment or thread, it'll submit all the ratings you've set behind the scenes as it collapses them.

Dynamic threaded and minimal are about 1/2 way done. It shouldn't be more than a couple days till they're updated here.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

strange (none / 0) (#111)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 06:37:34 PM EST

I was under the impression that there wasn't a need for more than one dynamic mode.

[ Parent ]
clarification (5.00 / 1) (#104)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 05:24:47 PM EST

If I'm understanding this correctly, there would be no need for more than one dynamic mode - with all comments expanded, it is like nested, but with buttons to the left of the comment, but otherwise aligned the same, with collapsed, it is minimal, but with buttons, and with one level expanded, it is threaded with buttons. Right? Also, a question about expand thread and expand replies.. could they somehow be used on the top level, the story? So that you could with one click turn it into fully nested or fully threaded, without clicking every single top comment.

Thanks for the cool stuff:)

-Dan

[ Parent ]
thanks a lot... and... (none / 0) (#137)
by ODiV on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 01:27:43 PM EST

I'm really looking forward to the "expand all replies" thread. You could even replace the regular arrow with it, as I wouldn't even bother expanding all comments individually. Would anyone?

--
[ odiv.net ]
[ Parent ]
Sweet (none / 0) (#39)
by Spendocrat on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 03:59:07 AM EST

You guys are awesome.

Another caveat you should watch out for (5.00 / 2) (#48)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:41:44 AM EST

While K5 is reasonably fast and this shouldn't generally be a problem, don't try to expand another thread while one is still in the "Loading" state. It'll make a mess of things.
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

Works in Konqueror (none / 0) (#49)
by grrussel on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:42:18 AM EST

Using KDE 2.2.2 its working fine.

Is this the first well written JS application ever?


KDE (none / 0) (#59)
by fr2ty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 10:10:42 AM EST

Using KDE 2.2.2 its working fine.

KDE 2.2.1's konqueror too.

[ Parent ]
Interesting (none / 0) (#81)
by newellm on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 01:13:06 PM EST

It doesn't work in Konqueror 3.0, and it has much better JavaScript Support than 2.2.

[ Parent ]
Dude. (4.00 / 2) (#51)
by MattOly on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:56:58 AM EST

I really, really, really dig it. I'm a dynamic HTML advocate, and that's a great way to use the stuff.

====
A final note to...the Republican party. You do not want to get into a fight with David Letterman. ...He's simply more believable than you are.

innerHTML (4.00 / 1) (#52)
by jesterzog on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 07:37:56 AM EST

Wow, what a nice innovation. Thanks for putting this together and while there are still some rough edges that have been pointed out in the comments, it's a nice idea.

I've just taken a look at the javascript and it appears to be using the innerHTML property. Someone might correct me, but I think this is a non-standard property that was started in IE, and is being reluctantly been supported in Mozilla because there are so many pages around that use it. The Mozilla docs explain it here and try to discourage people from using innerHTML for the non-standard reasons. (Search down the page for 'innerHTML'.)

It's possible to get the same thing more directly in the DOM using text elements and paragraph elements, although I don't know how much effort it'd be if this was just intended to be a hack. I guess it could complicate things if it involves parsing and interpreting other people's possibly broken HTML code directly out of the database and building a new DOM from it, especially when it's so much easier to just throw it at the browser using innerHTML.

Did anyone consider doing it that way though?


jesterzog Fight the light


Why? (none / 0) (#56)
by /dev/niall on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 09:27:09 AM EST

I don't know why folks use innerHTML for stuff like this, when the visibility and display CSS elements are right there for the tweakin'. Am I missing something?


-- 报告人对动物
[ Parent ]

Just a habit? (none / 0) (#61)
by Chancellor Martok on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 10:18:12 AM EST

A lot of people just prefer it this way... I dunno, maybe they find it easier? In this case though, it seems like it is...

-----
Chancellor Martok  in Sydney, Australia
"Castrate instead. That can surely rehabilitate. I did it volunatrily, and my grades went up!"  -- Sen

[ Parent ]
The visibility and display CSS attrs are nice... (4.50 / 2) (#94)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:22:46 PM EST

...but they aren't at all applicable in this case. In case you hadn't noticed, the subthreads are being dynamically loaded and inserted into the page at run time, so there's nothing there to be hidden.
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
Yeah but... (5.00 / 1) (#134)
by /dev/niall on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 11:01:35 AM EST

It's a tree control/listbox. It just makes my ass twitch that opening or closing a "thread" loads/destroys the same data again and again. Don't get me wrong, it's a neat piece of code, I just think the same results could be accomplished with an extra sprinking of standards and allow more user agents to take advantedge. Oh, and stop my ass from twitching. Must need more potassium in my diet.


-- 报告人对动物
[ Parent ]

Bandwidth (4.50 / 2) (#138)
by jesterzog on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 05:16:00 PM EST

In that case, maybe the reason is to conserve bandwidth. If dynamic mode loaded all the comments it would make the pages heavier, and unlike nested mode (which I use), it would often for comments that people don't read anyway. From the server point of view, it would be required to serve a lot more bandwidth.

So I can understand and appreciate the dynamic loading, but like you've said it does seem wasteful that it's destroyed again afterwards.


jesterzog Fight the light


[ Parent ]
Not sure if it would do that... (4.50 / 2) (#139)
by /dev/niall on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 11:41:48 PM EST

... if the data is being loaded dynamically, then closing and opening threads actually increases the amount of bandwidth. ;) It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
-- 报告人对动物
[ Parent ]
I don't know exactly what you mean (4.00 / 1) (#141)
by jesterzog on Wed Apr 24, 2002 at 12:34:13 AM EST

Could you please clarify how you mean? From what I can tell at the moment, dynamic mode only loads the top level comments and maybe some subject lines.

If people click on an expand button, it loads the extra comment being expanded but it still doesn't load every other hidden comment in the database... which is what would (I think) be happening if comments were only ever hidden by the display property. ie. They'd all be there (and that means a large page initially) but most of them might be ignored.

Deleting the comments and forcing them to be reloaded afterwards does seem a bit redundant however. It'd work better if they were only hidden and unhidden if they're re-expanded.


jesterzog Fight the light


[ Parent ]
Sorry.. (none / 0) (#148)
by /dev/niall on Wed Apr 24, 2002 at 01:43:40 PM EST

The top level comments are loaded. When the user expands a thread, the children are loaded. If they close the thread, they're destroyed, and if they open it again, they're reloaded.

I haven't done any usability testing on tree controls, but I know I like to open and close items as I need them... lets me jump quickly between things with a minimum of screen scrolling. If I do that here, I'm actually using more bandwidth because the same data is being loaded again and again.

Again, it's by no means a sure thing that more bandwidth is used; it's just a possibility that I would consider likely based on my own use of tree controls.


-- 报告人对动物
[ Parent ]

innerhtml vs appendchild (5.00 / 1) (#65)
by calimehtar on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:27:47 AM EST

It looks like they're also detecting and using appendChild for browsers that don't do innerHTML. I didn't realize there were any browsers that do one and not the other. It's an interesting script to say the least... Maybe they should make a 100% standards-compliant version for the fanatics :)


+++

The whole point of the Doomsday Machine is lost if you keep it a secret.


[ Parent ]
innerHTML vs. DOM (5.00 / 1) (#92)
by Joe Groff on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:16:49 PM EST

Internet Explorer's DOM implementation is broken. When I tried copying content from the hidden iframe to the main page using a cloneNode()/appendChild() loop, it would give me completely baseless "Invalid Argument" errors. Microsoft's specs and the Script Debugger gave no clue as to why this was happening, so I was forced to use innerHTML when available. This also has the benefit of making it work in Konqueror and (possibly) IE 4.
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
Dynamic mode doesn't work in Opera (2.50 / 6) (#54)
by quartz on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 08:27:16 AM EST

Therefore, it's useless.

--
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, and fuck 'em even if they can.
Which Opera? (none / 0) (#60)
by fr2ty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 10:12:48 AM EST

Which version, which JRE?
--
Please note that are neither capitals nor numbers in my mail adress.
[ Parent ]
JRE is irrelevant. (5.00 / 2) (#67)
by ambrosen on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:34:48 AM EST

It's using Javascript (aka ECMAScript), so it doesn't matter what JRE it is using. If Opera allows it, I might have a try at patching it to work. I've a feeling the function may not be getting called at all, but I'm not sure.

--
Procrastination does not make you cool. Being cool makes you procrastinate. DesiredUsername.
[ Parent ]
Of course. (none / 0) (#71)
by ambrosen on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:48:33 AM EST

As Opera doesn't support Dynamic HTML, it may be a bit hard. Still investigating.

--
Procrastination does not make you cool. Being cool makes you procrastinate. DesiredUsername.
[ Parent ]
Opera 6.0 Beta 1 Linux (5.00 / 1) (#68)
by quartz on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:43:44 AM EST

No JRE installed. What's Java got to do with Javascript anyway?

--
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, and fuck 'em even if they can.
[ Parent ]
ack (none / 0) (#156)
by fr2ty on Mon Apr 29, 2002 at 07:39:22 AM EST

nothing. oops.

[ Parent ]
Version 6.01Win, JRE 1.3_01 (5.00 / 1) (#78)
by X3nocide on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 12:35:40 PM EST

Although I don't see how JavaScript and Java correllate.

pwnguin.net
[ Parent ]
No Opera. (none / 0) (#83)
by ambrosen on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 01:15:50 PM EST

Ever. Yet. Perhaps the version in CVS does it, but as there's no public access, we can't tell. DOM support is under development, but until that's there, there's nothing that Opera can do to make it work.

--
Procrastination does not make you cool. Being cool makes you procrastinate. DesiredUsername.
[ Parent ]
Kuro5hin feature request (5.00 / 8) (#55)
by wiredog on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 08:52:58 AM EST

Would it be possible to have an option, when submitting a story, to have a "post as diary if dumped" checkbox?

Peoples Front To Reunite Gondwanaland: "Stop the Laurasian Separatist Movement!"
I like that (5.00 / 1) (#100)
by hurstdog on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:50:27 PM EST

I'll keep it in mind, and bug people in #scoop about it :-).



[ Parent ]
To answer Rusty's query... (none / 0) (#57)
by Wondertoad on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 09:47:52 AM EST

Dynamic comment expansion works well in Mozilla 1.0 RC1.


For what it is worth... (none / 0) (#113)
by joeyo on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 07:19:45 PM EST

It doesn't work on Mozilla Build 2001070116. Yeah, I know, big deal, it is an old build. But I just want to point it out. I really need to get our sysadmin to install a newer Mozilla...
-- "* I got to use the word 'churlish'!" -- Rusty
[ Parent ]
Dynamic & Chimera (none / 0) (#64)
by panck on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:16:15 AM EST

Happy to say that Dynamic mode works with Chimera (Mac OS X native browser using mozilla engine)

Chimera = bad name for a(nother) browser (OT) (none / 0) (#114)
by Lazy Jones on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 08:46:19 PM EST

I wonder who came up with this name - Chimera was an old browser, released years ago, not very popular (but I liked it because of its ability to handle inline images using external filters).

[ Parent ]
OT: Chimera (none / 0) (#152)
by driph on Fri Apr 26, 2002 at 07:17:40 AM EST

Yeah, due to the previous browser you mentioned already using the name, Chimera is just the project name for the new browser, with the actual application currently titled Navigator.

Personally, I like the ring of it and think they should just call it Chimaera instead. Anything but Navigator.

--
Vegas isn't a liberal stronghold. It's the place where the rich and powerful gamble away their company's pension fund and strangle call girls in their hotel rooms. - Psycho Dave
[ Parent ]

observations (none / 0) (#66)
by calimehtar on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:30:07 AM EST

I've been having problems with reload (IE 6: the page displays but the dynamic threads don't display) and view source (Mozilla: I keep getting the source for k5's homepage rather than the page I'm currently viewing). I think that it must have something to do with the way display preferences are stored, but I'm not entirely sure.

Since the script loads content through an iframe, how do you deal with content changing underneath threads after the top page is loaded? Would it maybe be more straightforward if the entire thread was loaded first and the dhtml was used for display only? Just a thought.


+++

The whole point of the Doomsday Machine is lost if you keep it a secret.


I thought the same thing (none / 0) (#70)
by analog on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:47:57 AM EST

Would it maybe be more straightforward if the entire thread was loaded first and the dhtml was used for display only? Just a thought.

The one caveat I wondered about was page load time. If part of the reasoning behind this is to help speed that up, then it may not be the best way. If page load times aren't a problem, then straight manipulation of the DOM is probably the best way to go. The "dynamic minimal" style Rusty suggested would actually be fairly easy to implement as a modified nested mode with little or no changes made on the server side, for instance.

[ Parent ]

State and source (none / 0) (#87)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 01:41:46 PM EST

I've been having problems with reload

Do you mean the page reloads, but the threads are all closed again, or they won't display at all? The first situation would be the "saving state" problem. The second, I don't know what it would be.

and view source (Mozilla: I keep getting the source for k5's homepage rather than the page I'm currently viewing)

Mozilla's "view source" is stupid. What it does is re-fetches whatever URL is in the Location box. It doesn't actually just show you the source of the page you're currently viewing, like you'd expect it to. I hope they consider this a bug, because it makes debugging Scoop a pain, since it ignores POST request variables.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Yep, it's a bug (none / 0) (#96)
by analog on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:50:13 PM EST

And it was supposed to have been fixed (fix landed in 0.9.9 I believe).

Okay, I just checked it after doing a preview on this comment, and it worked fine (this was with 1.0RC1). I wonder if there are still issues with it though. I just decided I'm not going to take this opportunity to go off on an extended Mozilla rant; suffice it to say that it would be nice if the Netscape guys working on it wouldn't dismiss broken/missing features with stupid ass comments like "nobody seems to use it so we're not fixing it" (hmmm, nobody using a feature which hasn't been implemented, wonder why that could be?).

[ Parent ]

Hmm (none / 0) (#101)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:53:26 PM EST

It's broken in Galeon 1.0. Does Galeon track Mozilla's release number or not?

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Haven't a clue [nt] (none / 0) (#112)
by analog on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 07:06:53 PM EST



[ Parent ]
No, it doesn't (none / 0) (#119)
by hackerhue on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:39:14 PM EST

I'm using Galeon 1.2.0, which, IIRC, was the first one with Moz 0.9.9 compatability (either it was 1.2.0, or the one just before). It seems to be broken in this version too, so the fix must've gone into Moz 1.0 RC1.

[ Parent ]
Doesn't work with Galeon 1.2.1 either. (none / 0) (#135)
by hackerhue on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 11:14:57 AM EST

I just tried Galeon 1.2.1 which uses Moz 1.0 RC1, and view source seems to still reload the page. So Galeon must be doing something wrong. It works properly in plain Moz 1.0 RC1.

[ Parent ]
Konqueror compatibility (5.00 / 1) (#69)
by darthaya on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:47:45 AM EST

Does not work on Konqueror 3.0.

Doesn't work in Opera. (?) (none / 0) (#102)
by wedman on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 04:58:40 PM EST

No worky in Opera neither.

~
DELETE FROM comments WHERE uid=9524;
[ Parent ]
No. (none / 0) (#108)
by ambrosen on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 05:47:16 PM EST

Opera doesn't yet support dynamic HTML. It is in the works, though. I'm disappointed, though.

--
Procrastination does not make you cool. Being cool makes you procrastinate. DesiredUsername.
[ Parent ]
Bandwidth conservation (none / 0) (#73)
by fluffy grue on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 12:01:49 PM EST

I had an idea for the dynamic mode... basically, when you first load the page, all of the comments themselves should be 'empty' and marked as needed, and then when you expand one, it should go and fetch it from the server (obviously the server will need to have a 'display just the comment' command) and do a client-side include of the new data where it should be.
--
"...but who knows, perhaps [stories about] technology and hardware will come to be [unpopular]." -- rusty the p
Oops, nevermind (none / 0) (#74)
by fluffy grue on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 12:04:59 PM EST

I see it does that already :)
--
"...but who knows, perhaps [stories about] technology and hardware will come to be [unpopular]." -- rusty the p
[
Parent ]
just 3 million? (1.00 / 1) (#85)
by /dev/trash on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 01:28:11 PM EST

oh

---
Updated 02/20/2004
New Site
For what it's worth (none / 0) (#86)
by gbd on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 01:38:07 PM EST

I get the following error in a popup window every time I load a page with any comments on it:

Javascript Error: http://www.kuro5hin.org/dynamic-comments.js, line 105:

function does not always return a value.

}
^

I'm using Netscape Communicator 4.05 under SGI IRIX. I know, I know, ancient browser and esoteric environment. The problem is that there isn't a lot of alternatives. Mozilla runs, but it's dog slow on my O2 and just really isn't feasible. I don't expect anybody to invest any amount of time just for the sake of one moron who's still using Netscape 4.0X, but if it's something with a simple solution (I know nothing about Javascript) it would be nice to get it fixed. It's damned annoying and there doesn't appear to be any way to disable the warning dialog. :(

--
Gunter glieben glauchen globen.
Argh (none / 0) (#88)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 01:43:37 PM EST

I was afraid something like that would happen. Stupid Netscape and it's stupid warnings. Maybe we can make Dynamic mode insert the javascript call itself, so if you don't use it, the page never tries to call that script...

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Well (none / 0) (#90)
by gbd on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:06:25 PM EST

One obvious workaround is to disable Javascript. This works fine; the only problem is that others sites that I visit require it to be enabled. However, since those sites only get visited a time or two a week, it's not that big of a deal to just disable it altogether and then re-enable it when it's needed. Too bad there isn't an option that allows you to suppress the warnings (which seems like it would have been a good idea!)

--
Gunter glieben glauchen globen.
[ Parent ]
I implemented threads once... (none / 0) (#103)
by ramses0 on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 05:09:55 PM EST

I implemented a javascript-dynamic threaded discussion board once (I'll have to dig up the code for 'ya if I can, rusty) ...and used: [js]document.write( "call_js_function()" )[/js], basically to avoid that same error you experienced. (only I had to make it work under NS4 as well as IE5 ;^)

Just wanted to share my experience, if I run into my code again, I'll ping you about it (since I had to run into much of the same design issues you're running into now). :^)

I have to say, fetching only on request is cooler though. ;^)

--Robert
[ rate all comments , for great ju
[
Parent ]

Ok (none / 0) (#89)
by rusty on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:06:25 PM EST

There. Now it only tried to load that script if you're actually using dynamic mode. Have the errors stopped?

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Yep (none / 0) (#91)
by gbd on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:08:17 PM EST

No more errors. Looks good! :-)

Thanks, man.

--
Gunter glieben glauchen globen.
[ Parent ]

Exactly. (none / 0) (#95)
by Farq Q. Fenderson on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:40:45 PM EST

I'm usually pretty anti-javascript, and against things that are browser-specific, but this struck me as really cool. If it doesn't work in your browser, no great loss, you still have all the display modes you always had.

Forcing people to use javascript is one thing, but since this is wholly optional, I think it's great. I can't even use it, 'cause I find Mozilla too bloaty, and I suck at windows (so I don't use it, and therefor have no IE. If anyone has any cheat codes...)

farq will not be coming back
Cheat code == Galeon (5.00 / 1) (#106)
by brunes69 on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 05:32:46 PM EST

If you find Mozilla bloaty, try Galeon, or (if you find Gnome bloaty) Skipstone. Both are GTK based browsers that embed the Gecko engine. I am sure you will find that 95% of Mozilla's slowness comes from its UI.

---There is no Spoon---
[ Parent ]
Hey, Joe... (none / 0) (#97)
by ana on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 02:53:56 PM EST

Thanks! Cool idea, and thanks for the implementation work.

That is all.

Years go by; will I still be waiting
for somebody else to understand?
--Tori Amos

Explorer 5.1 for Mac (none / 0) (#116)
by jaymagee on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 10:33:31 PM EST

Does not work, or at the very least, is so slow as to be unusable. great idea though.
Making a better humanity, one genetic change at a time.
yes (none / 0) (#149)
by rhyax on Wed Apr 24, 2002 at 09:42:06 PM EST

i had this problem too, just says loading.

[ Parent ]
works great on MacOS X (none / 0) (#151)
by Mindcrym on Fri Apr 26, 2002 at 03:14:45 AM EST

Using MacOS X 10.1.4 and IE 5.1.4 this looks great. Now I'll spend even more time reading Kuro5hin. Great work guys!
-M@

[ Parent ]
I wish I had a Mac. (none / 0) (#155)
by Joe Groff on Fri Apr 26, 2002 at 03:55:46 PM EST

Responses from IE/Mac users seem to be mixed. I'm sorry I don't have a Mac of my own to test it with :-/
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
bug (none / 0) (#117)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:32:01 PM EST

The [open] thing doesn't use font prefs for its display. Also, I'm still wondering why we need two dynamic modes? Is it just easier to implement than one?

indentation (none / 0) (#118)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:34:55 PM EST

Could the replies be closer to the left? As in nested.. because right now, there's too much whitespace, and it's disconcerting for me;) I feel like I'm two levels down a thread, when its only one.

[ Parent ]
upon further expermentation (none / 0) (#120)
by infinitera on Mon Apr 22, 2002 at 11:46:43 PM EST

This extra indentation is only on the first level of replies, with the deeper ones looking fine. Hmm. No clue..

[ Parent ]
Vertical spacing (4.00 / 1) (#121)
by zakj on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 12:31:07 AM EST

First off, I love the dynamic view; thanks. My only complaint is that the arrow graphic takes up a lot of vertical space -- it looks as though the list of still-closed comments are double-spaced.

Yeah. (4.00 / 1) (#122)
by Joe Groff on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 02:11:38 AM EST

Rusty remarked on this too. I like it personally, but if enough people complain I guess I'll have to fix it :-)
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
Text browsers (5.00 / 1) (#123)
by kzin on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 02:42:31 AM EST

Cool! Now all I need to do is to add Javascript support to w3m (should be weird but possible; one day).

Speaking of which, rusty, a tiny request that would take very little of your time and effort: think you could change the ALT tags on the "hotlist" and "print" links on the side of each story to simple "+" (or "-") and "P"? They are not more verbose in graphics, so there's no need for such description in the ALT attribute of all places. I'm asking because in table-capable text browsers (or in graphical browsers with image autoloading disabled, for that matter) those ALT tags cause those two links' column to take more than eighth of the screen's total width, disproportionately to their modest function.

Thanks. Other than this small thing, Kuro5hin looks superb in text.

How's that? [NT] (none / 0) (#124)
by rusty on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 03:37:50 AM EST



____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Explanation in the title attribute (none / 0) (#132)
by QuickFox on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 10:05:50 AM EST

A suggestion: Use a very short alt text, and put a helpful explanation in the title attribute:

<img alt="[P]" title="Print this article." src="whatever">

This is a good general principle. As I understand it, the alt text replaces the image when the image is not visible, so alt texts should try to reproduce the contents of the image. The title text is a helpful explanation shown to the user when the user rests the mouse pointer over something. ("Title" seems a misnomer, "explanation" or "tooltip" would be much better.)

You can't rely too much on the title attribute because many browsers don't show it. Still it's useful for the majority (?) of visitors who use ordinary modern browsers that do show it. And perhaps these users will help the others.

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.



[ Parent ]
Great! Thanks! (none / 0) (#136)
by kzin on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 11:29:40 AM EST

Now my Kuro5hin text experience is complete.

[ Parent ]
alt (none / 0) (#125)
by boxed on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 03:43:40 AM EST

alt content is specified by W3C as to be for accessability too, so shortening the description seems rather nasty to me.

[ Parent ]
OTOH (none / 0) (#126)
by rusty on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 03:49:00 AM EST

On the other hand, sighted K5ers long ago adjusted to the idea that "+" means "hotlist". I don't think the blind are any dumber than the rest of us, so it's reasonable to assume that they can figure out the symbol as well as you can.

If anyone reading (hearing?) this happens to interact with K5 through a screen-reader or basically any way other than reading it, I'd love to hear your comments.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

braille readers (none / 0) (#127)
by boxed on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 04:28:24 AM EST

Braille readers are common I think. The point is that the alt text is now "+" and "-" for comment expansion/collapsion, while for adding to/from hotlist is "[+]" and "[-]" which may be too similar. Oh well, it'd be nice to hear from someone using a system other than a screen as you say.

[ Parent ]
True (none / 0) (#128)
by rusty on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 04:35:11 AM EST

I forgot that the comment expand/collapse links were + and - in ALT too. In fact, I didn't use + and - for the comment expand collpase icons because they were too similar to the hotlist links. Sigh.

Any ideas on what would be better alt text for comment links? Or, really, does it even matter, since we already know that if you're using dynamic mode, you're definitely using one of a small number of graphical browsers? :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

well (none / 0) (#129)
by boxed on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 05:31:23 AM EST

You do have a point about that we know they use a graphical browser, but that may change suddenly. We cannot use ">" and "V" for the alt text since "V" and possibly ">" will be translated in Braille so it would loose it's meaning. I suggest "expand" and "collapse". Verbosity is Good and follows the w3c specs and spirit.

[ Parent ]
"Mixed" display mode (5.00 / 3) (#130)
by dlade on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 07:01:00 AM EST

Normally, I read comments in nested mode, but with the dynamic mode in mind, a display mode I think could be very useful is a sort of mixed one, where only the comments that are new are displayed as nested, while the old comments are collapsed.

Currently, it takes a bit of hunting to find the new comments when returning to an article, this would be a way of filtering them out without losing the ability to read the comments they are replies to if necessary.

It works quite well (none / 0) (#131)
by Ubiq on Tue Apr 23, 2002 at 07:14:18 AM EST

It has already become my default way to browse an article.

Thanks Joe and rusty :)



Spacebar (none / 0) (#142)
by fhbehr on Wed Apr 24, 2002 at 01:53:38 AM EST

This is real nice. One thing I noticed though, the space bar won't scroll the page down after I expand a comment. (Mozilla 0.9.9 on Mac OS X)

Yeah, it's focus (5.00 / 1) (#143)
by rusty on Wed Apr 24, 2002 at 02:37:39 AM EST

I noticed that the mouse-wheel doesn't work after I expand a comment. And just now, the space bar doesn't either. What you need to do is click on a blank part of the page somewhere, to regain focus on the page as a whole instad of the comment layer.

We should probably add something to the javascript to re-focus on the whole page after loading or collapsing a comment.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

An Improvement (none / 0) (#144)
by gigzy on Wed Apr 24, 2002 at 04:10:13 AM EST

Slashcode based(inspired) systems have an artifical flow of discussion because of the time penalty with viewing comments.

It is simply too much easier to scroll down for comments of interest to you than to follow a semi interesting comment that inspired some responses.

Less people view, moderate and post replies because of this IMHO.

This change has rebalanced the matter and should change the dynamics for the better.

Wheres the (none / 0) (#145)
by FredBloggs on Wed Apr 24, 2002 at 07:57:04 AM EST

info about the fact that you lost the ability to look at comments posted to dropped stories? Cant find it.
Nor can i find any explanation for why i suddenly lost `trusted user` status, despite having no worse ratings on my comments than before i lost it. Odd.

Trusted user explanation (none / 0) (#150)
by RadiantMatrix on Thu Apr 25, 2002 at 03:22:05 AM EST

Rusty modified K5 to discard ratings on comments posted in diaries when calculating mojo. So, high ratings in discussions attached to diary entries don't raise your mojo -- and the change is recursive, so if you commented in diaries a lot...

Scan the Site News section a bit -- there is more discussion in one of the articles.

--
$w="q\$x";for($w){s/q/\:/;s/\$/-/;s/x/\)\n/;}print($w)
[ Parent ]

Dynamic minimal's indentation is messed up (none / 0) (#146)
by ToastyKen on Wed Apr 24, 2002 at 12:34:57 PM EST

I use IE5 on Mac OS X, and in dynamic minimal mode, comment titles aren't properly indented. That is, child comments are indented the same amount as parent comments.

Rusty, you are right. (none / 0) (#147)
by fortytwo on Wed Apr 24, 2002 at 01:03:24 PM EST

Dynamic threaded is cool. BTW, works with konqueror 2.2.1, kde 2.2-11, and Red hat Linux 7.2.

Bug! (none / 0) (#153)
by fortytwo on Fri Apr 26, 2002 at 12:40:44 PM EST

Konqueror 3.0.0-2 KDE 3.0.0 on Red Hat Linux 7.2(rpms from ftp.kde.org) Dynamic comments display 'Loading...' and stay that way.

Javascript debugger for Konqueror? (none / 0) (#154)
by Joe Groff on Fri Apr 26, 2002 at 03:49:22 PM EST

Does Konqueror have a script debugger available like Mozilla and Internet Explorer do? It seems to work fine in Konq 2.2, but I have no real way of figuring out why Konq 3.0 refuses to work without a script debugger of some sort. You could maybe try submitting a bug to the KDE team, since this seems to work in most other DOM-compliant browsers.
--
How long must I travel on
to be just where you are?

[ Parent ]
Dynamic Comment Mode, and Ad Renewals | 156 comments (156 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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