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K5 General News Update

By rusty in Site News
Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:17:51 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

Ok, the title is kind of a lie, because there isn't any real news. But there's been a general undercurrent of annoyance and dissatisfaction lately (well, sometimes it's been an overcurrent, but whatever) about site performance, and CMF progress, and monocle polish other things. So in a vain attempt to squash the rumors that I'm off sailing the seven seas in a shiny new yacht, here's what's going on right now.


Hardware

You may have noticed (ha!) that K5's been slowing to a crawl around peak times, and that peak times have metastasized to encompass most of the workday EST. The basic problem is that the database machine (a dual 700Mhz Pentium III with 1Gb of memory) doesn't have enough memory space to sort a few of the key indexes. In particular the time index from stories and just about any index from comments.

In addition to this, we're one box short still, as one of the Scoop servers suffered a hard drive failure a while ago and isn't back online yet. The plan is to put a larger hard drive in the former Scoop box (a dual 1 Ghz P3 with 3Gb of memory) and make that the database server, which should be able to speed up the DB a lot. Then the former DB machine will become the third Scoop server, joining the other two more powerful boxes. This should help a lot. Rest assured that I am bugging Voxel to get this finished as soon as possible. Also note that blaming Voxel for this is rather out of line, since they are (still) providing all of the bandwidth, hardware, and support for free.

Meanwhile, I tweaked some of the database variables this morning to allocate more memory for index and sorting buffers. I'm kind of crossing my fingers and praying that it doesn't blow up, since that machine doesn't really have more memory to allocate, but it seems to be helping so far.

Scoop Stuff

No, search isn't fixed yet. K5 is a few updates behind the current code already, and with the hardware changes that are definitely upcoming, I thought it made sense to move the boxes around and update Scoop all at the same time, so as to minimize total downtime. Search won't be fixed until we're up to date with the current codebase, because I'm definitely not going to hack in some K5-specific fix that isn't in Scoop CVS.

I think most of the other things people have wanted are in the current Scoop CVS, like the fixes to the edit queue and a bunch of bugfixes to autoformat posting mode.

So the sane order for updates is fix hardware, update Scoop, squash the inevitable bugs and misfeatures that always show up in Scoop updates, then patch up the search. I should have at least a first try at a search fix by the time K5 is ready for it.

CMF

The CMF bylaws discussion is proceeding, though somewhat slowly since everyone on the Board has a lot of other things to do as well. The big questions we're dealing with right now:

  • Membership dues: I'm proposing these should be voluntary, not mandatory, with language to that effect in the bylaws
  • Directors: The first draft had, I think, a poor design for the Board. It proposed nine directors, of which four would be elected and five appointed, with the appointed Directors in turn appointing their successors. I think this puts far too much power (like, all of it) in the hands of the non-elected Directors. My proposal is that five Directors be elected, and four appointed, and that the appointed Directors should be appointed by a vote of the entire Board.
  • Miscellaneous things: Some details about requiring the annual report to be posted online as well as filed at the organization's offices, issues about how and where to hold membership meetings, questions about what constitutes a quorum for both membership meetings and Board meetings, and a couple of basic editorial issues.
I think that what we come up with in answer to these issues will become the first public-review draft of the bylaws, so hopefully we'll have a version that's appropriate for posting here in a few weeks, at most.

Rusty Doesn't Care Anymore

This theory has been making the rounds, much to my consternation. I don't know where it comes from, but it ain't true. If anyone would like to fill me in on what I did to make them think that, I will attempt to stop doing whatever it is. Or, um, start doing whatever it isn't. If that makes any sense.

Please feel free to complain below, if you need to get it out of your system.

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K5 General News Update | 184 comments (184 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Thank You =) (4.37 / 8) (#1)
by Bunny Vomit on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:25:30 PM EST



--
(\_/)   "I refuse to halfass a pie." -- evilpckls
(O.o)   <MisterQueue> bunny: you're a
You're welcome :-) (5.00 / 3) (#3)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:29:12 PM EST



____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Complain, bitch, moan, whine, (5.00 / 7) (#2)
by Wah on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:28:17 PM EST

lament, mourn, deplore, grieve, bewail, bemoan, frown, scowl, make a wry face, gnash teeth, wring hands, tear hair, roll on the ground, burst with grief.

Ahh, much better.  Just make it faster.  And NO, I'm not talking about your damn speedboat.
--
Where'd you get your information from, huh?

Rusty Care (4.00 / 4) (#4)
by duxup on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:33:15 PM EST

You don't send me flowers anymore.

HA! You see Duxup I was right! (5.00 / 2) (#11)
by techwolf on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:02:02 PM EST

I told you to relax and that Rusty would come through with news, ect and not more than TWO days later he does! THANKS RUSTY (for making me right this time)


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Hello? (none / 0) (#72)
by duxup on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:54:01 PM EST

Did I say something?  I did a while ago in my diary but rusty took care of it pretty well with his CMF post.  He's been communicating quite well recently.

[ Parent ]
Oh well ah I guess (none / 0) (#78)
by techwolf on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 05:50:33 PM EST

that you missed one of my light hearted (rare for me) comments recently. nevermind, just shoot me.


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]

Flowers vs. Being right (none / 0) (#97)
by MicroBerto on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 07:38:11 PM EST

Haha, I'm not sure which of the 2 faults here is worse -- never sending flowers anymore, or ALWAYS having to be right and declaring it at every turn!

Berto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Bertoline - My comic strip
[ Parent ]
Also (none / 0) (#130)
by jayhawk88 on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 12:28:33 AM EST

We detect a disturbing downward trend in the number of love songs you sing to us.

Why, then, should we grant government the Orwellian capability to listen at will and in real time to our communications across the Web? -- John Ashcroft
[ Parent ]
Dude, if i were you (4.66 / 3) (#5)
by AnalogBoy on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:34:55 PM EST

I'd have bought the yacht, changed my name (FeTwo OhThree Lastname would work), and redirected the domain somewhere :)

--
Save the environment, plant a Bush back in Texas.
Religous Tolerance (And click a banner while you're there)
...I'd buy a Dell with the donations. (none / 0) (#165)
by I am Jack's username on Sat Sep 07, 2002 at 04:07:29 PM EST


--
Inoshiro for president!
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]
Yay, we are loved! (4.85 / 7) (#6)
by DesiredUsername on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:36:18 PM EST

Your relationship with us is like any other--you need to talk to us once in a while to make us feel happy. Maybe read us a bedtime story and bake gingersnaps.

I'm confused on the difference between CMF and K5. Who runs K5? The CMF board? Or is there a sub-board for K5-only issues? Or is K5 just your personal thing and CMF is unrelated? Or is CMF just the name you've given to the entity that, right now and in the near future, has only K5 to worry about?

I think it's a big mistake not to include any regular K5'ers on the temp board. These bylaws sound like they are going to govern our future. I can understand not wanting to make CMF too K5-heavy, but since we are the only project they have (?) perhaps an informal election (or maybe just a current CMF board election) to give a little clout to a few "pillars of the community" would be in order.

I only found your previous story on CMF yesterday so I haven't read all the comments about that fully. Please excuse any repetition.

On the hardware stuff: You should point Voxel to some of the comments that have been made about their quality of service. That might make them think twice about putting the free advertising site on the back burner. Of course, it might also make them think twice about providing their services for free, so maybe that's not such a hot idea.

Play 囲碁

yes (3.00 / 1) (#7)
by tps12 on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:44:06 PM EST

I've already printed up some DesiredUsername for K5 Comp-Troller t-shirts.

In this, as in all else,—
Y'r obd't s'v't.
tps12.—
[ Parent ]
Great (3.00 / 1) (#22)
by DesiredUsername on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:31:28 PM EST

could you also send me a copy of Comptrolling for Dummies?

Oh wait. I just got your joke. Comp-troller. Heh, that's good.

Play 囲碁
[ Parent ]

CMF (4.00 / 2) (#8)
by dipierro on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:46:27 PM EST

Here's a link.  I didn't see this story either.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/8/19/185958/536

[ Parent ]

CMF (4.66 / 3) (#10)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:50:47 PM EST

This was probably the thing that people were least clear on in general, so I'll try again at it:

The CMF will own Kuro5hin.org, and be responsible for operating it. The way this will almost definitely be done is through a "K5 committee." Basically, the CMF needs a way to manage and oversee various projects, of which K5 will be one, so it'll probably work by creating project committees that operate mostly on their own.

From time to time, as necessary, the committee will report to the full Board. But for most things, it will just run the project on its own.

I don't know how you can say that no K5 regulars are on the board. Peter and Arkady, at the very least, have got to count. Perhaps you just meant "well-kown Diary section posters" hmmm? :-)

In any case, the CMF bylaws will only sort of govern K5 itself at, like, two removes. None of the CMF bylaws specifies anything about how K5 is run. They're just about electing Directors (who will determine who is in charge of K5, eventually) and how CMF membership works.

Anyhoo, we won't be adopting any bylaws without significant concensus on the part of you guys, I just wanted to avoid "Judean People's Front" syndrome.

And about Voxel: I don't think we've been back-burnered. That's never been the case before. I just haven't been in touch with them in a few days, so I don't know yet what the holdup is.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

K5 regulars (5.00 / 4) (#14)
by DesiredUsername on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:05:38 PM EST

OK, I forgot about those two. OTOH, I can't remember the last time I saw a post by Arkady (checking his comment history I see he hasn't posted since 8/12 and 7/22 was the just before that one). That's not to say that we have to have Daily Diarists running the show (can you just imagine Bob and tombuck in charge? though you may get some flack from the ghetto without a token diary minority member). Just noting that he's not as "regular" as maybe he used to be.

Good point on running the bylaws past us. I guess we can all function as temporary board members in practical effect. We just won't have any binding say.

Play 囲碁
[ Parent ]

Binding say (5.00 / 2) (#20)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:24:08 PM EST

I guess we can all function as temporary board members in practical effect. We just won't have any binding say.

Well, technically the current board doesn't have any binding say either, since there officially (legally) is no organization yet. They have binding say because it's the right way to do it, and I say we won't adopt bylaws without a vote. But legally, as far the government is concerned, the filed bylaws are whatever I say they are.

So from that perspective, you have exactly as much binding say as anyone, because I want to do things right. If that made sense.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

without a vote? (4.00 / 1) (#80)
by aphrael on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 05:59:19 PM EST

your meaning is a bit unclear, although i suppose that might be deliberate. do you mean there won't be bylaws without a vote of the provisional board, or without a vote of k5?

If you were talking about the board, i suspect you want *consensus* rather than a vote; there should be no bylaws until the entire board is comfortable with them, understands why provisions they initially disliked are there and agrees with the need, and all major issues of disagreement have been resolved by finding a compromise point that everyone can rally behind, rather than aiming for a vote where the majority viewpoint prevails.

In practice, this may end up being the same thing, especially with a small board. But there is a difference in *approach*, and in goal, and whichever approach the board takes will establish a precedent that will be followed by the permanent board, especially if there is sizable overlap between the two.

Vote-taking may occasionally be necessary on controversial issues. But on day-to-day stuff, and on basic stuff like the bylaws, seeking consensus strikes me asbeing a preferable approach.

[ Parent ]

Concensus (5.00 / 1) (#84)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:09:39 PM EST

I meant the bylaws wouldn't be adopted wthout a vote of the Board, provisional though it may currently be. But the goal is for concensus. Like, the actual results of the vote should be a foregone conclusion by the time it actually is taken, since we'll have already reached concensus. The vote is basically a formality.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
we don't need votes (3.00 / 1) (#127)
by mami on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 12:00:30 AM EST

just for formalities. :-)

[ Parent ]
procedure is important (4.50 / 2) (#149)
by aphrael on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 12:01:28 PM EST

Having a vote *today* when you know what the outcome is will establish a precedent that you vote on *everything*; then some time in the future when the Director of the CMF "knows" what everyone on the board thinks (and is wrong), the board can slap him over the head with a 2x4.

Voting, even as a formality, is a good thing.

[ Parent ]

Forget my rant, I needed to get into a fight (ns) (none / 0) (#157)
by mami on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 10:26:51 PM EST

with somethingand just picked Rusty for a change.

[ Parent ]
Nice government you have there .... (2.00 / 1) (#128)
by mami on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 12:07:50 AM EST

But legally, as far the government is concerned, the filed bylaws are whatever I say they are.

I know it's called a Republic of the benign dictators, not a democracy, how could I forget. :-)

I better go in sleeping mode again.

[ Parent ]

"I just haven't been in touch with them...&qu (4.50 / 2) (#21)
by dram on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:28:18 PM EST

"I just haven't been in touch with them in a few days," and saying in the story, "Rest assured that I am bugging Voxel to get this finished as soon as possible," don't jive well together. If you know what I mean.

-dram
[grant.henninger.name]

[ Parent ]
"jibe" (3.00 / 1) (#26)
by tps12 on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:56:39 PM EST

is the word you want.

[ Parent ]
d'accord (4.66 / 3) (#9)
by infinitera on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 01:48:42 PM EST

But when do we see which diaries are most 'popular', and the like? ;) (I needed to find something to put in my post besides contentment. :P )

what I think happened. (5.00 / 5) (#12)
by /dev/trash on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:02:16 PM EST

  1. The "We are broke story" came out.
  2. Money was donated.
  3. The site started to get slow.
  4. Rusty bought some things.
  5. People connected donated money to buying things.
  6. This wouldn't be too bad but site got slower.
  7. No updates from Rusty.
  8. Repeat 4-7
Never underestimate a site update now and then.  It calms me down at least and I am sure others as well.  When you get to see mod_perl errors at most any hour and no real update as to why ( well I like to blame mysql but since I haven't offered up a patch to get Postgres support, just ignore me.) people start talking.  But hey at least we don't have Visual Net Studio ads here.

---
Updated 02/20/2004
New Site
Postgres (none / 0) (#81)
by gazbo on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:02:33 PM EST

Yeah, I'd like to know what happens when K5 is ported to a different database - one that was always meant to scale </bitch>

I know hulver tried a different DB (Firebird?) under a heavy load and got a massive speed improvement. No ideas about Postgres though.

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

You get what you pay for (4.33 / 3) (#13)
by natael on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:02:20 PM EST

Voxel has been very good about donating their time and resources. Nevertheless, K5 is probably one of their lowest priorities. It's always hard to justify paying for something you're already getting for free, but I can't help but feel that if you wired $10,000 to Voxel today, the new hardware and an update to Scoop from the CVS could be in place by tomorrow afternoon.

"And now you're apologizing, not for insulting and denigrating people you don't

Voxel isn't paying for the hardware (none / 0) (#106)
by PresJPolk on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 09:14:20 PM EST

I thought Voxel was just housing the servers and providing them with an internet connection.  The hardware comes from elsewhere.

Assuming the above: Since it's the DB, not an overload of the network, that's slowing the site, it's not Voxel's fault at all.

[ Parent ]

Uhhhh (4.33 / 3) (#15)
by wiredog on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:11:44 PM EST

the rumors that I'm off sailing the seven seas in a shiny new yacht

I notice that you carefully don't deny the rumors that you're off sailing one or two seas on a grungy old yacht. Or spending your time riding the Vespa around Godforsaken Island laughing maniacally.

Earth first! We can mine the rest later.

Ha (4.50 / 2) (#18)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:20:06 PM EST

Ok, for the record: I do not own a boat of any kind. I have (twice) borrowed a friend's kayak and paddled around the Bay here a bit. I do ride around the island on the Vespa from time to time, but do not, under any circumstances, laugh maniacally.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
I obviously missed something (none / 0) (#25)
by AmberEyes on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:51:36 PM EST

What kind of Vespa?

BTW, there was an article in this month's Wired (I KNOW I KNOW STOP HITTING ME, OK) about Vespas. Page 88, if you're interested.

-AmberEyes


"But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
[ Parent ]
1966 150 (VBB2T) (none / 0) (#40)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:27:50 PM EST

Kinda like this. Good piece of island transport.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
And what about the monocle? [nt] (none / 0) (#27)
by dram on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:57:19 PM EST



-dram
[grant.henninger.name]

[ Parent ]
do not, under any circumstances, laugh maniacally (5.00 / 2) (#31)
by wiredog on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:04:10 PM EST

But. But. But. But without maniacal laughter you're just another boring nose-to-the-grindstone scruffy looking perl hacker with a pedophiliac smile.

Maniacal laughter is fun! Liberating! (Well, unless you do it in an airport. They don't appreciate it there.)

Try it sometime! The next time someone asks "When'll we have the damn search?" and you reply "When every damn thing else is fixed!", follow it up with a maniacal laugh! While riding the Vespa to the dock where the 'borrowed kayak' is!

HTML needs an air quotes tag.

Earth first! We can mine the rest later.
[ Parent ]

But what about the monocle? (nt) (none / 0) (#33)
by mrgoat on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:07:21 PM EST


"I'm having sex right now?" - Joh3n
--Top Hat--
[ Parent ]

copy cat (none / 0) (#35)
by dram on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:16:25 PM EST



-dram
[grant.henninger.name]

[ Parent ]
Well, if comments would submit faster... (none / 0) (#38)
by mrgoat on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:19:49 PM EST

That wouldn't happen!

"I'm having sex right now?" - Joh3n
--Top Hat--
[ Parent ]

CMF board nominations (5.00 / 4) (#16)
by STFUYHBT on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:15:14 PM EST

With the CMF bylaws approaching maturity, I thought this would be a good time to chime in.

I hereby nominate Medham for a position on the CMF board. Medham is a regular contributor on K5, who stands up for what he believes. The CMF board will need a certain level of STFU, and I believe Medham is the best candidate in order to bring in the requisite level of STFU.

-
"Of all the myriad forms of life here, the 'troll-diagnostic' is surely the lowest, yes?" -medham

No (5.00 / 2) (#24)
by wiredog on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:50:35 PM EST

Armaphine. The man who said "When are beatdowns with a two by four going to become federally protected free speech, dammit?"

Earth first! We can mine the rest later.
[ Parent ]
I am happy with the K5 "service"...... (4.00 / 2) (#17)
by madgeo on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:17:08 PM EST

You do a great job, Rusty (even though I think I got editorially bumped from the Front Page the last time I Posted) <grin>.

Seriously, K5 is the best! You can't please everyone, so don't try, just do your best and we look forward to the next announcement!

Rusty doesn't care any more (4.50 / 2) (#19)
by miller on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:21:40 PM EST

I suspect this originated in the diaries, from one or more of us who doesn't read the main sections much any more. Unless you write a diary or submit some site news, we don't get to see you any more :( I don't think there's much you can do, except keeping us posted when the site bogs down like it did last night (like you are doing), and even when nothing seems to be happening, either scoop or organisation-wise. Or search-wise, especially.

I suspect getting that machine back online, new and improved will make a lot of people happier and keep them off your back. I think some people expect far too much from their $4pcm.

--
It's too bad I don't take drugs, I think it would be even better. -- Lagged2Death

let's see (4.50 / 2) (#23)
by Shren on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:39:54 PM EST

Hardware

It is a little slow. I haven't looked at scoop enough to think about code improvements to boost speed, but the "throw hardware at it" solution doesn't work forever.

Scoop Stuff

No hurry.

CMF

Directors: The first draft had, I think, a poor design for the Board. It proposed nine directors, of which four would be elected and five appointed, with the appointed Directors in turn appointing their successors. I think this puts far too much power (like, all of it) in the hands of the non-elected Directors. My proposal is that five Directors be elected, and four appointed, and that the appointed Directors should be appointed by a vote of the entire Board.

I think that is a mistake. If you're talking about letting K5 users elect board members or any other large majority, well, direct rule democracy is perhaps not the best of ideas. A little demagogery can get someone in a position just because he thinks it's neat, not because he wants to do work for the foundation. If you do go the lots-of-power-for-the-masses-direct-democracy route, you better have methods in place for the rest of the board to vote no-confidence on a board member. You're going to need to.

I'm highly in favor of the first suggestion over the second. I can't really express in words how high. You recruited these people for good advice - listen to it. Giving up control later if you decide you have too much is about a hundred times easier than trying to gain control when you have too little. All of the projects I've seen that involve large groups of people and volunteering have at least a beneveolent dictator or two behind the helm.

At the very least, even if you go down to 4 unelected positions, keep the "unelected positions choose thier successors" bit.

Rusty Doesn't Care Anymore

People love to whine. They have the code. Let em go do better.

no-confidence votes (none / 0) (#47)
by aphrael on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:37:25 PM EST

that's actually a very good idea. cumbersome, because it would require a new election to replace whoever the board voted no-confidence in (appointing a replacement to an elected member just doesn't sit well with me), but having some sort of sanity check that allows the board to boot elected losers is probably a good thing.

Giving up control later if you decide you have too much is about a hundred times easier than trying to gain control when you have too little

This is *exactly* why having more elected members than appointed ones is important --- this way the elected people retain control and *never* have to take it back from the appointed ones.

[ Parent ]

funny. (none / 0) (#54)
by Shren on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:54:28 PM EST

This is *exactly* why having more elected members than appointed ones is important --- this way the elected people retain control and *never* have to take it back from the appointed ones.

I was thinking "This is *exactly* why having more appointed members than elected ones is important --- this way the appointed people retain control and *never* have to take it back from the elected ones."

I trust the apointees, because I trust rusty's judgement. I don't trust the elected people. Who knows, some troll could start warming up his "good image" account this very day for his future campaign to enter the halls of power. It just sounds like it would take too little to run for office.

Now, if everyone who wants to run donates 100 dollars and then the proceeds of all the canidates go to the CMF, I could see that. But right now you can campaign from wasted time at work, and to me, that doesn't show committment. Showing committment is putting the board and bylaws together now - which is why I trust the unelected more than the elected in this case.

[ Parent ]

But... (none / 0) (#63)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:21:49 PM EST

Who says I was going to be appointed? In fact, I will seek election as one of the elected members.

But actually I kind of like the "donate $100 to run" idea. That's not a bad way to ensure seriousness. If you can afford it solo, ok, and if not, you can campaign for broad support. Get 100 people to pledge you a buck. Either way, it would probably be some sign of seriousness for would-be Board members.

Not to mention that Board members will be wholly un-anonymous. So there's that too.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Appointed vs. Elected: ICANN vs. Usenet (4.00 / 1) (#101)
by phliar on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 08:16:06 PM EST

This is *exactly* why having more elected members than appointed ones is important --- this way the elected people retain control and *never* have to take it back from the appointed ones.

This is *exactly* why having more appointed members than elected ones is important --- this way the appointed people retain control and *never* have to take it back from the elected ones.

I don't think that one is better than the other intrinsically. Philosophically, elected == good; about appointed boards, ICANN is of course the canonical poster child for why they are bad. However, for those readers who remember Usenet and the cabal (there is no Usenet cabal) -- that is an excellent example of how well things can work (and perhaps can only work well) when a small group of committed people just do it, working pretty much like a dictatorship. I really don't think Usenet would have made it without spaf & co. doing what they felt was right.

For what it's worth: my personal opinion, completely uncontaminated by any reality, is that K5 is more like Usenet.


Faster, faster, until the thrill of...
[ Parent ]

ever heard of ICANN? (none / 0) (#95)
by moron on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 07:06:12 PM EST

Rusty's idea of 5 elected, 4 not with everyone voting for appointees sounds like a decent tradeoff between popularity contest, stability and committment to my way of thinking.  Minimizing or removing the democratic quotient leads inevitably to the sordid kind of mess that is ICANN and could easily kill the spirit that drives kuro5hin.org IMHO.    

Cheers

--
culture: http://industrial.org
music: http://deterrent.net
code: http://codegrunt.com

[ Parent ]

Yep (none / 0) (#96)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 07:08:27 PM EST

Funny. ICANN has been my shining model of exactly how not to do things. They're useful like that. In any quandry, you can just think "What would ICANN do..." and then do the opposite. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Speaking as a SMOF. (none / 0) (#99)
by haflinger on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 07:50:25 PM EST

Okay, I'm not really an Illuminati card. But I have served on several BoDs in fandom, which isn't exactly the same as the k5 userbase but does have significant crossover and I think quite a few of the same issues.
If you're talking about letting K5 users elect board members or any other large majority, well, direct rule democracy is perhaps not the best of ideas. A little demagogery can get someone in a position just because he thinks it's neat, not because he wants to do work for the foundation.
This is totally correct, except that it's spelt demagoguery. :)
If you do go the lots-of-power-for-the-masses-direct-democracy route, you better have methods in place for the rest of the board to vote no-confidence on a board member. You're going to need to.
This is totally incorrect.

The problem with voting off board members is that it makes the divide-and-conquer hijack the board strategy possible. And the first rule of volunteer BoDs is, if a crazy strategy can be used to totally derail the whole organization, eventually it will be. (The divide-and-conquer strategy goes like this: you persuade members using techniques subtle and unsubtle to resign, until your bloc consists of a majority of the BoD. Then you vote off non-bloc members.) It is extremely unwise to allow this possibility.

A better solution to the democracy problem is to only allow people who've made some significant commitment to k5 to vote. The problem here is defining "significant commitment." You can't use money. That favours rich, bored people, and you don't want them running your organization.

I would suggest using time. People who commit to being, for example, editors, ought to be able to vote. However, there are only a few editors. Supposing you wish to allow more people to vote, I would suggest setting up a way for people to help out around k5 without the massive obligation placed on editors. Allow these moderately helpful people to vote.

That said, I'm against democracy. It's bad, bad, bad. Appoint your BoD, it's safer. :)

Did people from the future send George Carlin back in time to save rusty and K5? - leviramsey
[ Parent ]

my diary (4.00 / 2) (#28)
by anon868 on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 02:57:58 PM EST

Hi Rusty, if you're reading this. I hope you didn't take my diary the wrong way. I was just attempting to outline the problems or percieved problems with K5 (i'll admit, it had an unfortunate title). I'm here for the long run and a few minor problems isn't going to keep me from coming back.

Rusty doesn't care anymore: I know you do care. I hope everyone else out there knows it too, and that the complaints are all good natured fun. If you didn't care, I'm sure you could have long ago taken off with our money, or 'sell our eyeballs' as you put it, when we were running out of money.

Open a window. No, not that one! One made from actual glass, set in an acual wall, you dork.

Diary (3.00 / 1) (#36)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:16:54 PM EST

Not at all. I thought that diary was eminently sensible and clear headed.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
My dearest Captian Rusthab (4.00 / 4) (#29)
by Bob Abooey on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:02:10 PM EST

Perhaps this would be as good a time as ever to ask for a few small favours to help appease us until you succumb to our larger demands. As the self appointed Diary Writers Union Chief Steward I would like to propose these humble requests for your approval:

1) Attributes for the LI tag. I'm quite certain this little gem would serve to enhance the diaries and drive home revenues to the bottom line.
2) Hows about letting us use that nifty line-through feature that you used in your story? That looks pretty nifty as well.
3) The BLINK tag. No explanation needed for this one.
4) A personalized thank you email from you everytime we post a diary. After all, it's those personal touches that really make a difference.
5) Post the root password for K5 so we can go in an tweak things as needed during the slow times without having to bother you. This will certainly go a long way to empower the community feeling amongst us!!!!

Now them, my good sir, I have reviewed these simple requests and it's plain to me that these are very reasonable and fair demands as any rational and same man will agree.

Your humble friend,
--Bob Abooey


-------
I think Tom's some kind of hero actually. If I'd woken up on the street in Oxford Circus I'd have gone home and called in sick

Yes and no (4.00 / 4) (#39)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:20:36 PM EST

  1. You can use the START and TYPE attributes for OL. I don't see very much value in the attributes for LI (how often do you need to make a list that goes "1, 2, E, III, 5"?)
  2. Ok
  3. No!
  4. No no!
  5. No no no!
:-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
A clarification (4.50 / 2) (#56)
by Bob Abooey on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:59:40 PM EST

Good Day, Sir Captain Rusthab, my fine sir.

Regarding the LI attributes it was my humble understanding that the html spec allows you to assign one of three attributes1 to it: (disk, square, circle) thusly allowing one who utilizes said tags2 to freely express things in a fourth dimension, if you will.

Warmest Regards,
Bob Abooey

[1] - Spec References: <LI> TYPE=[ disc | square | circle | 1 | a | A | i | I ] (style of list item marker) </LI>
[2] - We all know that lists are a base element of human life. I would reference LISP as a proof of concept for matters of this regard.


-------
I think Tom's some kind of hero actually. If I'd woken up on the street in Oxford Circus I'd have gone home and called in sick
[ Parent ]

LI v. OL (5.00 / 1) (#64)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:24:52 PM EST

You can do that with either attributes to LI or attributes to OL/UL. The difference being that an attribute to LI only affects that one list item, while the other way affects the whole list.

To be honest, the only reason I'm hesitating to just do it right now is that it would further complicate the "allowed HTML" list down below the input boxes, and for probably almost no utility.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Scoop does not allow attributes for UL [nt] (2.00 / 1) (#89)
by xriso on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:29:20 PM EST


--
*** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)
[ Parent ]
Talking to one's self (2.00 / 1) (#90)
by onyxruby on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:30:40 PM EST

Talking to one's self is OK so long as one doesn't answer one's self. So where does posting to one's self fall? Is this is ok, or is a vacation needed?

The moon is covered with the results of astronomical odds.
[ Parent ]

Contrary to popular opinion... (4.33 / 3) (#93)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:55:03 PM EST

I am not Bob.

And

  • Enjoy the new
  • Type Control
  • For list elements
  • You whiners ;-)



____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
I have a sneaking suspicion (2.00 / 1) (#108)
by KilljoyAZ on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 09:35:28 PM EST

that rusty is medham. Consider this - have any of you ever seen the two of them in the same room at the same time?

===
Creativitiy cannot be SPELT by over 98% of all American troops. - psychologist
[ Parent ]
Idea (4.00 / 1) (#98)
by coryking on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 07:48:35 PM EST

Personally, when I watch people use photographica that allowed HTML thing just confuses them. I got rid of it for the "submit story" stuff, and I'll probably get rid of it for the comments too.

IMHO, stuff like that belongs on another page. Speaking of which, I plan to steal that "Allowed HTML" tutorial you have. That's pretty sweet...

That being said - slowness aside, you've done pretty well with this site, and I still look up to you for site administration. Good work!!!

[ Parent ]

creativity (4.50 / 4) (#121)
by ucblockhead on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 11:40:44 PM EST

how often do you need to make a list that goes "1, 2, E, III, 5"?
You're, like, stiffling our creativity, man...we need the freedom to express our selves without artificial boundries.
-----------------------
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
[ Parent ]
Fight the power! (4.80 / 5) (#124)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 11:47:26 PM EST

All of the requested attributes/tags are now enabled you whiny bitches.

I've actually become rather fond of the strike tag lately. It's kind of amusing for sub-rosa sarcasm purposes. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

new tags (5.00 / 2) (#145)
by ucblockhead on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 11:01:56 AM EST

It's about goddamn time why, thank you! Why the hell did it take so long? You always do suck cool stuff for us! We want more new features now and we'll keep bitching until we get them! We are so grateful that you will hear nary a complaint from us.

Where's the comment search!? Keep up the good work!
-----------------------
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
[ Parent ]

Suck? (5.00 / 3) (#146)
by rusty on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 11:38:38 AM EST

I refuse, on principle, to suck cool stuff for you, or anyone. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
One more (5.00 / 1) (#132)
by Verminator on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 02:06:01 AM EST

How about allowing the <acronym> tag as well? I'm really digging it these days and I'm always seeing people asking authors to define their acronyms.

(OK, I realize that if they're not defining them in the stories already they're certainly not going to do so using HTML tags. But some of us would use it.)

You could have used it to define CMF in the story and I wouldn't have needed to look in the comments to find out what it was.


Fear leads to anger, anger leads to misery, misery links to Satanosphere.
[ Parent ]

Weekly updates? (5.00 / 3) (#30)
by nchannen on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:04:06 PM EST

Since we (the K5 community) are now your employers (in a way), would it be possible to post weekly status reports, (perhaps as a diary, since everyone has you hotlisted), just as if you were a regular employee of a company?

As for the hard drive, if Voxel is delaying, wouldn't it be easier just to buy one (with some of that $35k), and ship it to them?

Thanks for the update, but some hard feelings might have been avoided if it were done earlier.
--
Parents of young organic lifeforms are warned that towels can be harmfull if swallowed in large quantities. [HHGttG]

not in the diary section (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by aphrael on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:32:49 PM EST

the diary section should be the place where rusty, like everyone else in the community, can let his hair down and talk about whatever is interesting him today.

I think the idea of weekly or biweekly status reports from whoever is responsible for K5, or the CMF, on a day-to-day basis, is a good one, but that should be in a seperate place --- either through 'site news' (although i think that should be reserved for important things like, oh, changes, new features, etc) or some other, lower profile mechanism (perhaps on the CMF web page?).

[ Parent ]

too much bureaucracy... (4.50 / 2) (#105)
by wrinkledshirt on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 09:11:24 PM EST

Let him give us news as need be. I don't think we're employers as much as customers. It'd suck if rusty's job was reduced to jumping through bureaucratic hoops.

[ Parent ]
huh? (none / 0) (#133)
by blisspix on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 02:07:50 AM EST

how many employees have to report on what they did every week? few, I'd wager. Quarterly is more realistic.

[ Parent ]
Timesheets (none / 0) (#138)
by rdskutter on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 05:51:12 AM EST

Yeah Rusty, we want to see your timesheets.


If you're a jock, inflict some pain / If you're a nerd then use your brain - DAPHNE AND CELESTE
[ Parent ]

CMF Project Proposals. (5.00 / 2) (#32)
by dram on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:04:48 PM EST

The other day I posted a diary that had the beginings of an idea for a CMF project and just wanted to post a link to it so Rusty would see it.

Also I am wondering how one would go about proposing an idea like this? Should I just hang on to then for now and wait till the CMF is established? How does this work now? How will it work when the CMF is up and running?

-dram
[grant.henninger.name]

Just hold on (none / 0) (#34)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:12:44 PM EST

The CMF will have a website with specific guidelines for proposals. In general, it'll probably require at minimum a description of the idea, a list of people who will be involved (including qualifications etc) and a budget with planned sources of income and expenses. At least to start with, I doubt the CMF will have much money to offer, but we ought to be able to help with organization, resources, and possibly things like grant proposals. We're nothing like ready for any of that yet, though, so hold on for a bit.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
In your view... (none / 0) (#37)
by dram on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:18:38 PM EST

Do you think this idea has merit? I know its kinda scetchy right now and that whole funding thing would be a problem, but does it fit with the "Collabrative Media" part of things?

-dram
[grant.henninger.name]

[ Parent ]
Sort of (none / 0) (#43)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:31:38 PM EST

Yeah. I had a bigger project in mind that would work well with that as part of it. Like a news site run collaboratively, which would have as its mission that kind of journalism. Imagine K5 but with nothing but actual first-source news. Whether reporters could be paid or not is kind of up in the air. Some things might have to be employee-done though, as I'm not sure you could convince anyone to go sit in boring-ass government meetings for free. But who knows. With enough contributors, maybe you could have volunteers cover one thing a month each.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
This sounds interesting (none / 0) (#104)
by hesk on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 09:07:03 PM EST

First-source news, without the filters of a hidden or corporate agenda applied. Although I fear that it will be a daunting task and might easily turn into another indymedia if each of the volunteers pushes his own agenda.

Keep us informed.

--
Sticking to the rules (red lights etc.) doesn't improve your safety, relyi
[
Parent ]

That is one of the reasons I dont like volunteers. (4.00 / 1) (#115)
by dram on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 10:10:34 PM EST

If you had paid employies to go to these meetings you would be more confident that the news you report is more balanced. At the same time I don't really want any sort of editorializing of the stories, I just want them to say "This is what happened, this is who said it, this is the responce from others on the issue."

Other reasons to pay people to do this is that you dont feel at all obliged to accept their work if its crappy, you cant go about telling all of your volunteers that you don't want their services because their writing isn't up to par.

About it being daunting I think that it would, but it would be easier to do it with paid people. Volunteers can't be sent to do very boring jobs. At least not repeatedly. They require some sort of fun and excitement in their volunteer duties. This isn't the same for employies, or at least this issue is present to a much smaller extent.

Ok, wait, that didn't have anything to do with it being daunting, did it? Sorry, went off on a tangent I guess...What I meant to say was that it would be daunting but less so if you had paid staff. It would be hard to find enough volunteers to cover all the meetings and press briefings and other such things.

So those are my thoughts on volunteers. Of course the one good point about them is that they are cheap. So I don't know...somehow I doubt anything will ever come of this. So until I start thinking about it more seriously I'm not going to worry about it.

-dram
[grant.henninger.name]

[ Parent ]

Maybe a slant slider (none / 0) (#184)
by speedfreak2K2 on Mon Nov 18, 2002 at 01:32:39 AM EST

Have news stories go through an editing queue, so you can have a copy editing session with k5 readers, and put a slider asking everyone whether they think the story is really slanted to one side or not. It doesn't have to be a defined slider (ex. Right wing v. Left wing), just one asking if it is slanted or not. Something like:

0=------------=50=----------------=100
slanted---------so-so----------a-ok!

If it ends up being really slanted to one side, you could ask the writer to revise it without so much slant to it and rerun it through the queue. Of course for stories where slant can't be removed, the slider could be disabled.
You! Take that crown off your head, I'm kicking your ass!
[ Parent ]

Thanks (4.66 / 3) (#41)
by theboz on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:27:58 PM EST

Yeah, I know, I "sure do like to complain."

Still, Site Updates and the like keep us users informed. At work, I have to tell my boss when I'm waiting on someone else to finish something so I can do my job. Even though it doesn't make me look active and stuff, it at least gives a reason for me not being able to finish something I think that the relationship you have with K5 changed after money was brought into the picture. Anyway, for better or worse it happened and here we are. The point is that you sort of put yourself in the position of working for thousands of people. All those that participate in K5 are your "bosses" now. Yes, you can quit your job, you can take your work in any direction you want to, but you and the CMF depend on the userbase when it's fundraiser/subscription/ad time. It's still a 100% voluntary contract on both sides. We choose to be here and you choose to run K5. I certainly understand this.

As far as my complaining goes, you shouldn't take it personal. Another thing to consider is that I talk to a few K5ers on ICQ, IRC, etc as well. I can guarantee that I was not the only person feeling frustrated with what was going on with K5, but I was one of the few that have no qualms about posting complaints here. My biggest complaint has always been a lack of communication. You have posted comments and such, but I saw the fact that you weren't too eager to post a site update as you trying to hide something. Not the whole, "Rusty bought a sailboat" thing, as that is still a joke in my mind.

I felt that Voxel is giving K5 the shaft and you didn't want to complain about it or else they might drop K5. If that were to happen, I'd suggest changing K5 to a static page with a fundraiser and a bar like last time, and the only purpose for the money would be to find a new host and pay for it. I disagree with your statement about complaining about Voxel being out of line too, because they are advertising to us by having their logo here. I might have even considered signing up for that k5.net service you wrote about, if I trusted them. I do admit that they seem to have done pretty good until recently. I know I never dealt with them personally, but I think that they gave you good service before and the site problems haven't been related to their service (or lack thereof) until this time. However, if they wish to make a profit by advertising through a popular site like K5, they need to take some care of it. I can understand them not being able to get to the work you need because of paying customers coming first. However, they have to realize that they're getting a bad reputation with the thousands of people here who are aware that they are part of the reason K5 is running slowly. Installing a hard drive into a server and starting a restore onto the HD should only take about 20 minutes of time. What their actions are advertising to us is that they will only care if we pay for their top services. Maybe they don't care and they have enough paying customers that they don't need us to give them a good word of mouth, but I suspect that's not the case. So my complaining about them is probably doing them good so they realize that inaction could cost them future customers.

I don't really understand the CMF stuff, but that's ok. I don't see anything inherently "bad" about it, so I don't really have a reason to complain about it (I know you're thinking "thank God.") The "Rusty doesn't care" stuff is mostly the result of no site updates, as far as I know. As I stated in the opening of this post, if you explain to your bosses/customers/etc. why you can't finish what you have to do, they'll be a whole lot more receptive than if you just try to cover for it.

Stuff.

I know (5.00 / 1) (#49)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:38:44 PM EST

Sorry, my pissy reponse this morning was the result of insufficient caffienation. As you can see, I eventually agreed that an update was necessary. :-)

I still don't think blaming Voxel is kosher, at this point. I wish they'd tell me what's going on, but I wouldn't be too quick to jump to any conclusions. Shit happens, you know? Last time I thought they were leaving me in the dark, it turned out that an email didn't get from them to me, and my problem was solved weeks before I found out about it. So I'm watiting to see what the deal is. The other thing is, no one's 100% perfect, and one slow hard drive install shouldn't crash their whole reputation. They really have provided superb service for a long time.

I'll try to keep you more in the loop from now on.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

It was funny actually (none / 0) (#70)
by theboz on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:44:05 PM EST

Sorry, my pissy reponse this morning was the result of insufficient caffienation.

Now I know that if I ever want to troll Rusty, I just have to complain a lot early in the morning. :-D By the way, if it helps explain anything, I never drink coffee.

I still don't think blaming Voxel is kosher, at this point.

That may be the case, but the lag and downtime certainly isn't giving them a good advertisement via K5. It could be an innocent mistake, or they could have a very good reason, but in the meantime, the site runs slowly and nobody really knows what's going on here, so it does make them look kinda bad. I know that some of their employees read K5 (or at least used to) so if one of them would post something I think it would do a lot for their reputation here, and ultimately help their income.

The other thing is, no one's 100% perfect, and one slow hard drive install shouldn't crash their whole reputation. They really have provided superb service for a long time.

I do agree that they've done great in the past. Even though I am skeptical of them right now, they could easily remedy that. It's just that at this point I wouldn't do business with them. Still, that could change within a matter of as little as a few minutes. They have an opportunity to not only salvage their reputation amongst users here but to expand on it. The ball is clearly in their court though.

I'll try to keep you more in the loop from now on.

Just as long as the "you" is the English equivalent of ustedes, that sounds great to me. Perhaps instead of diary bitching I might resort to an email next time also, if there's something bugging me about K5.

Stuff.
[ Parent ]

Voxel (4.00 / 1) (#117)
by sigwinch on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 10:34:38 PM EST

That may be the case, but the lag and downtime certainly isn't giving them a good advertisement via K5.
Two points you seem to be forgetting: Voxel doesn't provide the hardware, and what they do provide is a rather generous gift.

Another point is that K5 outgrew the database machine because the PR from the fund drive brought in new users. Without that K5 would still be fast, but The Oxidized One would be in a very bad way.

And have you looked at the price for a hot DB machine? Penguin Computing's price for a dual Athlon machine with 3.5 GB of RAM and four hard drives is $5,000. For that to be worthwhile as advertising, it would have to sell probably $20,000 worth of services, which is 66 years worth of basic virtual hosting. That's a lot of sales for a tiny, untargeted "advertisement".

They have an opportunity to not only salvage their reputation amongst users here but to expand on it.
Salvage reputation? Their kindness has given me many hours of enjoyment for free. The fact that they can't afford to throw wads of money at random websites doesn't hurt their reputation with me.

--
I don't want the world, I just want your half.
[ Parent ]

Yes and no (none / 0) (#118)
by theboz on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 10:49:24 PM EST

Two points you seem to be forgetting: Voxel doesn't provide the hardware, and what they do provide is a rather generous gift.

It's my understanding that a hard drive to replace the one that failed is already there. I believe it was Compaq that donated the servers, but that may be incorrect. I'm not sure where the HD came from though. Voxel does have the servers in their racks though, as far as I understand.

Another point is that K5 outgrew the database machine because the PR from the fund drive brought in new users.

True, but I think what Rusty's idea is will just move stuff around to move the scoop server that needs the new HD to be a DB server, and put the old DB server as a scoop server. That may help with the DB problems.

Salvage reputation? Their kindness has given me many hours of enjoyment for free. The fact that they can't afford to throw wads of money at random websites doesn't hurt their reputation with me.

I don't despise Voxel, but I certainly wouldn't sign up for them right now. I do appreciate what they've done for K5, but I get the impression they're letting it slip through the cracks right now. That's not a very good "advertisement" for them, especially if that idea of having K5 branded Voxel services was a real goal.

Stuff.
[ Parent ]

never upgrade your compiler three days before RTM (5.00 / 3) (#42)
by aphrael on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:29:50 PM EST

I thought it made sense to move the boxes around and update Scoop all at the same time

I can understand why you would think this, but it goes against all of my instincts as a programmer: it's *far* better (in the sense of being less risky) to make a series of changes and verify each of them than to try and change multiple things at the same time; that's just asking for trouble.

Membership dues: I'm proposing these should be voluntary, not mandatory, with language to that effect in the bylaws

In that scenario, what *is* required for members? Eg., how do you ensure that people who claim to be members are in fact committed to the community/project, and are not merely claiming fake membership in order to mount (in effect) a hostile takeover? Maybe i'm excessively paranoid on the subject, but it seems good to me to have a requirement that members be *contributing* in some way --- either through voluntary financial contributions, or through being active in one of the CMF's projects. (Eg., in my mind, an either-or is good, but not requiring *anything* is bad).

My proposal is that five Directors be elected, and four appointed, and that the appointed Directors should be appointed by a vote of the entire Board.

I think this is a better concept, and more reflective of what K5's culture is.

requiring the annual report to be posted online

I think minutes of board and member meetings should be posted online, too. Also, if you haven't already done it, you should go register something like www.collaborativemediafoundation.org (www.cmf.org, www.cmf.net, and www.cmf.com are all already taken) for this sort of purpose.

Well (none / 0) (#46)
by carbon on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:37:15 PM EST

I can understand why you would think this, but it goes against all of my instincts as a programmer: it's *far* better (in the sense of being less risky) to make a series of changes and verify each of them than to try and change multiple things at the same time; that's just asking for trouble.

He didn't say that he wasn't going to test one change before applying another, he said that he wasn't going to bring the server back up publically before both things were implemented. No need to turn the entire k5 community into the Beta Testers from Heck.


Wasn't Dr. Claus the bad guy on Inspector Gadget? - dirvish
[ Parent ]
Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#60)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:17:08 PM EST

Eg., how do you ensure that people who claim to be members are in fact committed to the community/project, and are not merely claiming fake membership in order to mount (in effect) a hostile takeover?

Ok, that's one of my concerns, and why I wanted feedback from the rest of the Board on it. Because yeah, on the one hand, I want to make dues voluntary, but on the other hand, I don't want people to sign up and vote just for a lark.

What I was thinking was maybe requiring either paid dues, or the recommendation of one or two existing members, as like sponsors? Perhaps make a section of the CMF site to hook up potential sponsors with potential sponsees, and just generally let the membership control it.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

sponsorship (none / 0) (#65)
by aphrael on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:31:45 PM EST

Funny; I was just about to IRC you about this, because it would have to be more interesting than the conversation in #k5. :)

Sponsorship could work. For some reason, though, I'm struggling with this heinlein-esque concept that somehow contributing to the community, and displaying a commitment of some sort, should be required for membership. (Heinlein, of course, would have said that only those who would fight and die for the community should be members, but that's excessive). The idea is that *active* members are preferable to *passive* members, and that there should be something built into the membership structure that encourages/requires people to be active.

Sponsorship could work; if the community really wants active members, sponsors wouldn't sponsor inactive ones. I'd be a little bit concerned, though, about the possibility that (a) some individual or group of individuals would blindly sponsor *anyone*, thereby defeating the purpose; (b) someone who was sponsored turned out to be a problem. Would it be possible to revoke sponsorship? How would that work?

[ Parent ]

Fight and Die... (1.00 / 1) (#68)
by Kintanon on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:40:15 PM EST

I'm FAR more willing to fight and die to uphold the ideals of Kuro5hin than to do the same for the US...

Kintanon

[ Parent ]

Honestly, you are not honest ... Membership etc. (none / 0) (#102)
by mami on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 08:45:22 PM EST

I didn't want to comment anymore, but (ha) you caught me again cheating, darn. And of course, as usual, because I am mad.

I remember that you liked to compare K5's intention to become a non-profit entity to the goals other public media, like NPR etc. have pledged to.

K5 and NPR are only partly comparable. It is true that I can listen and watch public TV or public NPR and my financial support is not mandatory.

Here I think it's appropriate to not insist on mandatory membership fees, because, in reality, I can't influence the content broadcasted over NPR/WETA other than by either viewing or refusing to view it.

It's different for K5. Here the community members are the only ones who provide content and they are editors in chief at the same time.

Other than your rate-wipe measurements there is no other control against a vandal rater, vandal commentator or vandal story supplier. At the same time those vandals abuse the access to your server and use your storage space for free. With that much control over the fate of this site, why wouldn't you want a committment in form of a financial "walk the talk" or "pay the play" from its users?

If NPR or WETA would allow me to use their broadcast time and facilities for my own pleasure, wouldn't you think that membership fees should be mandatory? Why not? Are we that poor or that cheap that we can't pay for the freedom to own this site like a farmer his land, who plants the goodies and lives of his harvest?

You provide the access and the system admin tasks and the storage space (this is the land) for their diaries, stories and commentaries (that's the planting) and allow anybody to read the stuff (that's the harvesting).

Why do you want to give people that many goods, that much freedom at no cost, and still be at risk that among your "farm workers" there are eco-terrorist out there, who can spoil all the fields with their hatred or irresponsibility? Isn't it extremely easy to abuse this site? And you are inviting them to "do as they please"? Where do you live, in la-la-land?

I don't like the idea of sponsors at all. What do you want me to do? Bow to geek or use my seductive powers to be sponsored by him/her (ooh...), because he/she has "some weight" that is capable of molding some board member's brains? That's the first step in the "old boy- and girlgeeks from the trenches club" or something and completely out of question, if you ask me.


[ Parent ]

Confusion (4.00 / 1) (#107)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 09:26:31 PM EST

I'm talking about Collaborative Media Foundation membership dues. Not K5 membership. Dues to the CMF will not pay for K5. They'll pay for any operating costs of the CMF, and to (hopefully) fund an endowment or fund such other projects as the Board deems worth funding.

And I told you you'd be back. ;-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

So, don't the CMF Membership dues also pay (none / 0) (#125)
by mami on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 11:53:16 PM EST

your salary, operating costs of the K5 server, broadband connection etc?

Where am I confused? If we, the members of CMF, are the CMF, we own the CMF, and the CMF foundation owns K5, what else is there to own besides your system admin service, your server and your high speed net connection?

If the membership dues don't pay for the operation of K5 with what will K5 operation costs be paid?

Are there separate K5 subscription fees?

Of course I am back. K5 operates as a pimp to a lot of addicts. No offense, you can get addicted thinking about how to fight the drug dealer. :-)

OK, I have to exaggerate, otherwise it's no fun. But may be you can explain to me what kind of money is to pay what kind of expenses.

[ Parent ]

CMF and Kuro5hin (5.00 / 1) (#148)
by aphrael on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 11:58:44 AM EST

As I understand it based on what Rusty said in earlier articles, the CMF is an umbrella organization that owns and operates K5 and other "projects" related to collaborative media. After an initial period, each project is supposed to be self-sustaining. The idea is that the CMF operates as a sort of venture capital firm investing in other collaborative media ideas.

So yes, there would be seperate CMF and K5 memberships, although there would be an almost complete overlap at the beginning of the CMF.

[ Parent ]

Thanks, (none / 0) (#156)
by mami on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 10:22:48 PM EST

may be this gives me some understanding in the future about what "venture capitalists" really do. I intend to answer more dummy questions. Thanks for answering them.

[ Parent ]
Programmers don't make good sysadmins. (4.00 / 1) (#82)
by ghjm on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:03:57 PM EST

I can understand why you would think this, but it goes against all of my instincts as a programmer: it's *far* better (in the sense of being less risky) to make a series of changes and verify each of them than to try and change multiple things at the same time; that's just asking for trouble.

What you are failing to consider is that we are not talking about a body of source code that you are making changes to, we are talking about a Web site in daily use by thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of people. In this circumstance it's *far* better to make major changes all at once. There's nothing more annoying to users than an application that constantly changes its behavior in small ways.

If you want to talk about risk mitigation, here are two thoughts to consider:

  • The proposed hardware and software combination ought to be thoroughly reviewed in a test environment before committing it to production. This means you know exactly how the new setup will perform prior to even thinking about migrating to it. Lack of resources may be a problem here, but you'd be surprised how much of this is actually a mindset issue.
  • If there is going to be an outage related to the upgrade, you will have to take the system down in order to solve it. If you schedule a block of planned downtime in which to do all the updates, any problems will most likely occur during this downtime. If you're looking to minimize either total downtime or total number of downtime events, it is again better to make all the changes at once.
Basically, what it boils down to is that you want to maintain long duration steady states (think uptime values), and your goal in any upgrade situation should be (a) minimize the time required to return to steady-state and (b) maximize the length of the steady state that will potentially follow this action.

Personally, I think as a sysadmin, Rusty's a pretty decent programmer. I think better quality administration would go a long way towards mitigating some of the user complaints. But it's not really any of my business. (Even though I'm paid up for the next 414 days, and plan to renew in 2004 if the site still exists.)

-Graham

[ Parent ]

Ha! (5.00 / 1) (#92)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:47:54 PM EST

Personally, I think as a sysadmin, Rusty's a pretty decent programmer.

You can say that again. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Is the scoop code optimizable? (5.00 / 3) (#45)
by dipierro on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:35:41 PM EST

In particular the time index from stories and just about any index from comments.

What is the time index used for? If it's for knowing which articles are new enough for the front page, maybe it would make sense to move articles to a separate table after say a month? Or actually it would probably be better to just have a separate table for the latest articles, which is a duplicate of the table with all the articles. That way you can drop the time index on the big huge table.

Similar things could probably be done with the indexes on comments. Or you could do the good old archive mode like Slashdot. I'm sure whatever the problem is there are better solutions than throwing more hardware at the problem.



One more suggestion (5.00 / 2) (#51)
by dipierro on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:42:51 PM EST

Give non-subscribers that notification thingy for replies, so we can stop killing your database clicking on "Your comments". :)

[ Parent ]
I hardly think (5.00 / 3) (#48)
by Joh3n on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:37:32 PM EST

You are sailing the seas in a yacht.  No no, you are tooling down the streets in a vespa throwing comic sized bags of money (with the big $$ on the sides) at people, whilst dressed as the hamburgler, all the while screaming "pillaging money, from the trenches!".

As for the slowness of k5:  people need to breath deeply, they can get their lack of joh3n diary goodness all in good time.

In seriousness, I do support the idea of news from the Grand Poohbah TM pseudo-regularly, perhaps once a fortnight or so.

Regarding dues, how is that different from membership?
---------------------------------
You can learn a lot about someone by popping in their un-rewound pr0n tape and seeing where exactly they came.
-terpy

Dues v. Membership (5.00 / 1) (#58)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:05:09 PM EST

Membership is one official vote for Director elections. Dues are what you pay to be a member. What I'm saying is that we should encourage members to pay annual dues, but not make it absolutely mandatory. That way we're at least not excluding anyone who really wants to be a voting member but just can't, for whatever reason, afford to pay dues.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
CMF??? (none / 0) (#69)
by X-Nc on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:43:06 PM EST

I'm sorry but I don't know what CMF is. I don't really follow k5 enough to be more than a kibitzer and randomly rate articles (ok, I do read most of them<g>) so I missed what the acronym stands for. I hate to be a total waste but I was curious.

--
Aaahhhh!!!! My K5 subscription expired. Now I can't spell anymore.
[ Parent ]
Collaborative Media Foundation (5.00 / 1) (#71)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:46:50 PM EST

See this article for more info.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
CMF: Namespace clash (3.50 / 2) (#139)
by seb on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 08:12:54 AM EST

The main CMS product built on top of the Zope application server is called the CMF (Content Management Framework).

It is gaining a fair bit of mindshare right now - q.v. Plone.

It wouldn't matter so much, but the functional domains of your CMF  and the other CMF  overlap.

I expect you won't be planning on doing anything about it, but I thought you should know...

[ Parent ]

how much are dues? (none / 0) (#88)
by perdida on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:28:35 PM EST

I will gladly pay 'em.


The most adequate archive on the Internet.
I can't shit a hydrogen fuel cell car. -eeee
[ Parent ]

Show of commitment. (4.50 / 2) (#112)
by vectro on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 10:00:19 PM EST

It seems to me that any discussion of dues should describe the goals in instituting them. Is it to raise money? To ensure that voting members care enough? To keep out the riff-raff?

It strikes me that the most important advantage of dues is that it provides a convenient, trustable statement of interest - having "put money down", a member has demonstrated that he or she is committed to the Foundation.

With that in mind, then, it seems to me that the most obvious solution ought to be mandatory dues with financial aid for those unable to pay.

“The problem with that definition is just that it's bullshit.” -- localroger
[ Parent ]

Commitment (4.50 / 2) (#116)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 10:14:43 PM EST

Ok, fundraising isn't a bad goal, or a bad side-effect, but the CMF itself won't need much actual funding. The main point of dues is a show of commitment.

I was talking about this to aphrael on IRC, and we both thought what might work would be one regular member rate, a student discount (mail a photocopy of your student ID type thing), and a "special circumstances" email address. I.e. if you can't afford the regular rate (which we're talking about probably $25/year ish) email me and say why, and what you can afford, and we'll probably say "Ok, that's fine."

The two competing goals are open access for everyone regardless of financial situation (like maybe you live in a country where US$25 is a lot of money, in which case I'd probably just say "Send in whatever a half-decent meal out for one costs you." or you lost your job and have three kids at home, or whatever) vs. the desire to make sure that votes go to people who actually care about using them, for which a nominal fee is probably the easiest proxy.

Anyway, yeah, I think simply providing a way around it with some human intervention is probably best.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

how do you plan to minimize fraud? (5.00 / 1) (#119)
by Delirium on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 11:24:27 PM EST

Collecting nominal dues would be one way to minimize fraud -- if everyone has to pay $5, it becomes expensive to fake 100 votes, while still cheap enough that (nearly) everyone can easily pay it. This of course isn't the only way, but do you have any other methods in mind of preventing people from registering multiple memberships, the way they currently do multiple k5 accounts?

[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 1) (#120)
by dram on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 11:30:20 PM EST

The way to minimize fraud, since 0 fraud is acceptable in this situation, is to get peoples real name and address and other contact info. Not just a hotmail account.

-dram
[grant.henninger.name]

[ Parent ]
Yup (4.50 / 2) (#122)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 11:44:35 PM EST

Membership will require real name and address. We'll mail out ballots, you'll mail them back.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
why mail back? (4.75 / 4) (#131)
by Delirium on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 01:07:06 AM EST

Wouldn't it be easier to mail out a one-time confirmation number, and allow all subsequent stuff to happen online? That way, you only have to mail stuff out the first time, and don't have to worry about receiving stuff back in the mail. Basically the way the k5 registration system currently works -- one piece of mail is sent to make sure the address is valid and is really you -- only with real mail instead of email.

Or are there other advantages to the "mail back ballots" system I'm missing?

[ Parent ]

that works, but could be tricky to implement (4.00 / 1) (#123)
by Delirium on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 11:46:08 PM EST

The only really good way of doing it would be to mail things (perhaps a confirmation number that can then be entered on a website) to their physical address to ensure that it actually is their physical address. Otherwise it's pretty easy to make up plausible-sounding fake addresses (or even real addresses that don't happen to be yours). It'd require probably in the neighborhood of $0.50/member to pay for materials and stamps though.

[ Parent ]
I have a complaint (1.50 / 2) (#50)
by Stick on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:41:01 PM EST

The features I paid for when I bought membership no longer work for me, thus, I will not be renewing it when it expires. Good day.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
More info? (4.00 / 1) (#52)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:53:05 PM EST

What do you mean by "no loger work"? Also, if you're unhappy, I'll gladly refund your subscription.

For future reference, the righteous indignation would be more believable if you had tried to contact me about this in any way.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Oh, I see (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:58:45 PM EST

You got rating-wiped for abuse. This sets your user group to "user-norate", which cancels subscription features.

I issued a return to your card. Sorry for the delay.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

You didn't need to do that (3.00 / 1) (#59)
by Stick on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:05:24 PM EST

I'm not really bothered by it. I didn't use the features anyway.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
Well (4.50 / 2) (#61)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:18:43 PM EST

It's only fair. I knew this was going to come up eventually, as rating-wipe and paid memberships are like basically incompatible. Consider it my way of comforting my own conscience.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
But...but... (2.25 / 4) (#62)
by Stick on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:21:07 PM EST

What will I complain about now?


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
rating-wipe? (3.00 / 1) (#74)
by fortytwo on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 05:22:50 PM EST

What's that?

[ Parent ]
Ratings (5.00 / 3) (#83)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:07:36 PM EST

A simple anti-rating-abuse measure. Basically, when someone notices that someone else has gone and rated all of their comments down in an attempt to, umm, accomplish whatever purpose that's supposed to accomplish, the ratee emails help@k5 and whines to us, and one of the admins goes and looks and says "Yup, Bob sure did rate all of Jim's comments from the last year to 0 in one sustained fit of impotent pique" and then that admin hits a little button that removes all the reters ratings and also their permission to rate in the future.

Permission to rate can be reinstated, and has been when the rater emails us with something like "Oops. I was acting like a dick and I won't do that anymore."

Basically, it makes "modstorming" pointless is the idea. It'll take us less time to reverse it than it did for someone to perform it in the first place. I thought that would be a much simpler deterrent than trying to impose some kind of baroque pre-abuse filter.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

I would email you and get it back (3.00 / 1) (#91)
by Stick on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:41:42 PM EST

But I quite like not having it. Less work.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
You'll be missed (1.00 / 1) (#53)
by jabber on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 03:53:16 PM EST

Well, maybe. Unlikely, but not impossible. Oh hell, bye!

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

I'm not leaving (3.00 / 1) (#57)
by Stick on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:03:19 PM EST

I'm just not buying a membership again since the features aren't working.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
My bad (3.00 / 1) (#67)
by jabber on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:37:19 PM EST

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

What features?

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

Features (3.00 / 1) (#76)
by Stick on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 05:38:45 PM EST

Hostlist, spellchecking etc. I don't really remember them all since I never really made use of them. It took me a month or two before I even noticed they were gone.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
Funny that (3.00 / 1) (#94)
by jabber on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:57:30 PM EST

They're working for me just fine.

Maybe your spelling is just that good?

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

More's the pity. [n/t] (1.00 / 1) (#77)
by haflinger on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 05:38:55 PM EST



Did people from the future send George Carlin back in time to save rusty and K5? - leviramsey
[ Parent ]
Oh just admit it (3.00 / 1) (#79)
by Stick on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 05:52:02 PM EST

You really love me :-D


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
But it's got beautiful plumage! [nt] (3.00 / 2) (#87)
by xriso on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:23:49 PM EST


--
*** Quits: xriso:#kuro5hin (Forever)
[ Parent ]
Comments Table (4.66 / 3) (#66)
by hulver on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 04:34:32 PM EST

Just out of interest, how many comments in the comments table?

I've been asking some questions on the scoop list, and on the scoop site about optimizing the scoop tables, but nobody seems interested?

A very simple change to use a numeric sid id, instead of the full 30 char sid in the comments table & other tables would speed up scoop and reduce the size of the indexes (reducing memory presure).


--
HuSi!

DB tests (5.00 / 1) (#86)
by gazbo on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:19:18 PM EST

You got around to running your benchmark on Postgres yet? I'd be interested to see how it compared to the other two, and it's also kinda relevant here.

I can't help but think that even if MySQL is more lightweight, with a load like K5 Postgres will perform better.

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

Postgres (none / 0) (#134)
by hulver on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 04:37:05 AM EST

I've got as far as installing it :)

I'm not a db guru, and the differences between the different engines tools is quite annoying. I might have to start emailing you questions, like "Whats the equivelent of DESCRIBE TABLE".

If I get time, I might try something this weekend.

Still, I'm only benchmarking 1 query at the moment, so it's not a very good indicator of the general performance of the database for scoop. I asked a question about how mysql is configured on k5 as well, but nobody has bothered to answer. Rather than just slagging off mysql, I'd like to get it set up with the same back end as k5, rather than the default as I think it makes a big difference to performance.

--
HuSi!
[ Parent ]

Go ahead (none / 0) (#135)
by gazbo on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 04:47:11 AM EST

I'm not the authority on Postgres, but I do use it daily. You can't go too far wrong with \? to get a list of internal commands; e.g. to get a table description, \d tablename and to get a list of tables \dt.

I'd be happy to help just to satisfy my curiosity - I can't be arsed to actually benchmark it myself.

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

Re: Postgres (none / 0) (#137)
by juahonen on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 05:13:35 AM EST

It might not perform that well on the current table layout of Scoop. Since MySQL doesn't support joins, the database design doesn't take advantage of it. If the databases were redesigned to comply with the third normal form or Boyce-Codd normal form, the Postgres would be able to use genetic optimization on the queries.

Postgres supports placeholders, which would further speed Scoop up; the DB would have to optimize a query only once and the client could use the optimized query multiple times..

For optimization Postgres offers the EXPLAIN command. Place it in front of any query and Postgres prints out the plan formulated by the query optimizer. There you'll see the owerall cost of the query as well as the costs of any subqueries. It also helps to find out the places where Postgres is unable to use indexes.

Ps: type \? in psql and you'll get a list of internal commands available.



[ Parent ]
Yes (none / 0) (#140)
by hulver on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 08:39:34 AM EST

I know, that's sort of what I'm planning to do. The comments table is one of the biggest messes. It's primary key is sid+cid+pid. 3 identifiers, but sid is a 30 character field, and the two comments id's are 15 character fields. What a waste. Changeing that to use Int fields instead (4 bytes) would save at least 48 bytes per record in index space. If there are 1 million comments, that's 48 MB on a single index. Lots of other tables use sid as well, they should all use a numeric identifier linked to a text field if needed.

There are lots of places where the data can be normallised. It just depends how far you want to go. So far, I've not heard a peep from any other scoop developers about it.

--
HuSi!
[ Parent ]

eh? (none / 0) (#155)
by dr k on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 08:37:51 PM EST

"Since MySQL doesn't support joins..."

Huh?

The Scoop design is perhaps afraid of joins, but they are certainly possible with mySQL.


Destroy all trusted users!
[ Parent ]

Yea, afraid of joins. (4.00 / 1) (#164)
by Inoshiro on Sat Sep 07, 2002 at 03:24:36 PM EST

Because we know what they do to our performance. That's why our DB isn't entirely 3nf. We used to have a lot of code from a fellow who worked on Oracle support (he took off, thankfully, because he had some personal issues as well). His code added tons of joins to Scoop. What happened when we reopened in Sept of 2000 from our Great Blackout?

The system tanked doing joins. By not taking our decomposition further, and sacrficing scape for the sake of speed, we managed to bring the system back and handle the load no problem on a dual P3 733 with 1gb of ram. Something the join-littered code could not handle.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Employing Rusty? (5.00 / 4) (#73)
by Inhibit on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 05:10:08 PM EST

We are in no shape or form Rusty's employers (IMHO).  (shudders at the thought of 20,000 or so pointy haired bosses) When contributing to a non-profit entity, the amount of "ownership" you have over the group in question is generally gotten out up front, when the donation is passed.  There's no "well, I gave you 5$ so now do what I say".  If that was the case, nothing would ever get done!

That being said, I like the overall tone and flavor of Kuro5hin, and think that only the users can make it a better site.  I'm sure Rusty will continue to make sure the backend runs soundly and updates/tweaks keep rolling in.  Keep up the good work!

-- Inhibit, PCBurn Linux hardware/software reviewer

Employment (5.00 / 2) (#75)
by aphrael on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 05:28:23 PM EST

I understand where the 'we employ rusty' meme came from. One of the strong ideas behind why people donated to the site is the feeling that they get something out of it; that they are, in a sense, paying for a service they enjoy.

The corrolary to that is that if they're *paying*, the bar of expectations goes up; they're paying, dammit, and they want to get their money's worth.

I prefer the older, more anarcho-socialist way of thinking about it: we're contributing to the support of our community. But that doesn't sit well with the more mercantile members of the community. :)

However, once the CMF is constituted, and we elect Rusty as one of our representatives (as i'm assuming we will), the situation changes: then he *is* our employee, in the same exact sense that your Congressman is your employee --- he's there to represent your interests. :)

[ Parent ]

Rusty For Congress! (none / 0) (#183)
by wiredog on Fri Oct 04, 2002 at 09:11:59 AM EST



Earth first! We can strip mine the rest later.
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the update (4.50 / 2) (#85)
by faecal on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 06:11:57 PM EST

It's nice to feel less lost. I'm getting a credit card imminently, so I'll be throwing my meager $2 a month in your direction soon. k5 may be imperfect, but it's still holding the crown of "most worthy to sit under my home button".

You omitted a final line... (4.00 / 4) (#100)
by leviramsey on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 07:59:19 PM EST

-- Written aboard rusty's yacht en route to a private island off the Maine coast, as a team of 100 galley slaves row below

:o)



speaking of which... (4.00 / 3) (#103)
by anon0865 on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 08:46:23 PM EST

...does anyone know when the K5 store is going to go online?

I would love to have a K5 hat, if for no other reason that I like the logo and name.

Personally, (none / 0) (#162)
by davidduncanscott on Sat Sep 07, 2002 at 01:46:05 PM EST

I want a "K5" oval sticker for my bumper.

[ Parent ]
k5 is dying (2.10 / 10) (#109)
by turmeric on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 09:39:19 PM EST

clearly the burden is becoming overwhelming for the beleagured skeleton crew of this once great virtual construct. a nice idea, but numerous great cities have become decrepit sand-covered ghost towns, where the next generations find only unintelligeble markings in long dead languages, things like 'stop spamming the editing queue' and 'this is what a good MLP is supposed to be'.

as microsoft moves into the democratic digital community market the writing is on the wall, every trade journal from 'blogweek' to 'industry standard blog news' to 'jack o'dwyers blog newsletter' have been predicting it for months: k5 has reached the peak of its evolutionary lifespan and will succumb to the overload as the complete lack of business model and revenue overwhelms the tiny infrastructure, ill designed for the fleeing hordes of slashdotters and unemployed googles of tech workers with nothing better to do than sit around -1 comments they dont like.

The only problem with your post... (4.33 / 3) (#110)
by dram on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 09:53:21 PM EST

is that you cant -1 comments. The lowest you can rate comments is 0.

-dram
[grant.henninger.name]

[ Parent ]
Spelling nitpick (1.00 / 3) (#113)
by QuickFox on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 10:03:42 PM EST

as microsoft moves into the democratic digital community market [...] k5 [...] will succumb to the overload

Forgive me if I sound pedantic but that last word is spelled with an "r", not an "a".

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]

"free" Voxel hosting (4.33 / 3) (#111)
by danny on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 09:58:08 PM EST

Probably largely because of the links from K5, Voxel ranks 1st on Google searches for "managed servers" and "managed clusters", and 4th for "virtual hosting"... At least one company is selling text ads based on Google PageRank, and their pricing suggests the Voxel links on the front page alone are worth about US$600/month...

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this - it's a classical sponsorship deal, really - but it's not "pure kindness of heart" on Voxel's part and I think it's best to be honest about that.

Danny.
[900 book reviews and other stuff]

No (4.00 / 2) (#114)
by rusty on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 10:09:18 PM EST

Of course it's not the kindness of their heart. I would be highly suspicious if they claimed it was. I was responding to people bitching that "Voxel sucks" (not usually in exactly those words, but that's the gist) because our hardware isn't straightened out yet. I was just saying that I don't have all the facts, and I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt until I do.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
That's an interesting way K5 could make money... (3.50 / 2) (#126)
by leviramsey on Thu Sep 05, 2002 at 11:54:23 PM EST

Auction off rights to have a link on every page...

Hmmmm....



[ Parent ]
source of the rumors (3.75 / 4) (#129)
by Delirium on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 12:09:13 AM EST

Why, one only needs to take a look at rusty yacht.jpg for conclusive evidence of what's going on here.

Diaries (2.00 / 4) (#136)
by rdskutter on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 05:07:37 AM EST

Most of the complaining on the site over the past month has been about ever decreasing Signal/Noise ratio in the diary section. You cannot have missed these complaints.

Why haven't you mentioned the diary section here? Do you really care Rusty?

I expected you to post a site news article about 2 weeks ago asking for suggestions of how to improve the diary section. But there was silence. Absolute silence from you.

Please acknowledge that there is a problem with the diary section.


If you're a jock, inflict some pain / If you're a nerd then use your brain - DAPHNE AND CELESTE

The diary section does not have any problems (none / 0) (#141)
by DesiredUsername on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 08:50:30 AM EST

that it didn't have a year ago.

Play 囲碁
[ Parent ]
Not quite true (none / 0) (#142)
by rdskutter on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 09:11:57 AM EST

The problems with the diary section have been there since day one. The flood of new users and crapflooders has caused those problems to become more apparent. The k5 community in May/June was very different from the k5 community now and the occasional diary entry from France (We surrender) was considered funny and welcome because France was one of the only people to do contentless diaries semi-regularly.

Recently the diary page has been full of crapflooders, people crapflooding in order to push crapflooder further down the page (gullible fuckwits - may you all burn in hell). There is a need for absoutely contentless diaries to be deleted from the main diary page.

I admit that the diary section now seems to be recovering as a lot of our new users seem to have left as fast as they arrived - presumably due to the low quality atmosphere that they themselves were creating. However the underlying problem still exists and the diary section will slump again. We need to be ready for it next time or we will lose the community that we have spent so long nurturing.


If you're a jock, inflict some pain / If you're a nerd then use your brain - DAPHNE AND CELESTE
[ Parent ]

I'm sorry (3.00 / 4) (#143)
by roam on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 10:02:31 AM EST

that your diary explaining how much you love Sailor Moon was pushed off the page, but it's time to let it go.

___
Are they like hamsters?
Specifically, can I tape up a chinchilla, slather him in axle grease, and shove him up my ass? - Patrick Bateman


[ Parent ]
School/University vacations are over... (none / 0) (#144)
by TheophileEscargot on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 10:42:02 AM EST

...which has cut down on the K5 numbers, I think. But they will go up again.
----
Support the nascent Mad Open Science movement... when we talk about "hundreds of eyeballs," we really mean it. Lagged2Death
[ Parent ]
I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#151)
by Bob Abooey on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 02:13:18 PM EST

I think the diaries are pretty much the same1 as they have always been, although they move much quicker now than they did when they were new, for the obvious reasons.

There is no solution for the crapflooder problem except for the one that the community as a whole cannot implement, and that is, simply ignore them. If someone crapfloods and gets no resposnes and no ratings and no complaints they will grow tired of it in a very short order and move on. Really.

The problem is and always has been those few people who want to do battle with them to set them straight, teach them a lesson, or whatever. Once this happens then the crapflooder has their mark and the real game is afoot! You've seen the resluts of that more than once.

But since there is no way, due to human nature I suppose, for everyone to agree on ignoring them you will simply have to take them with a grain of salt and learn to live life on lifes terms the diary section on the diary sections terms. It will never be utopia, and unless you make it a gated community, and thusly stopping many potential interesting people from joing in, you are open for abuses. That's my take.

[1] - Although I do miss some of the more interesting people like Deefer and SpiralX who don't have time to post like they used to. But people come and go and there's nothing really wrong with that.


-------
I think Tom's some kind of hero actually. If I'd woken up on the street in Oxford Circus I'd have gone home and called in sick
[ Parent ]

No (4.66 / 3) (#147)
by rusty on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 11:50:31 AM EST

There is no problem with the Diary section. It's anarchy there. There are no guidelines beyond not being visciously offensive or attacking other users personally. And, usually, not posting like several obviously spammy things in a row. But "contentless" is not a word that really has meaning in relation to diaries. I think the complaints of a problem stem from a misunderstanding of what diaries are.

Crapflooding I continue to keep an eye out for, and ban people who do. That's the way it's always gonna be, and I don't think it's been notably worse lately. But in general, the rules (such as they are) are much more relaxed there. The vast majority of diary section complaints have looked, to me, like very thinly veiled complaints that other people are playing in your playground. That's not, IMO, a valid complaint.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

One issue (none / 0) (#153)
by ucblockhead on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 05:54:08 PM EST

Would you consider an anti-pagewidening measure?

I.e., just arbitrarily split any word over 40 characters in the intro into 40 character chunks.

I would justify this by pointing out that on a number of occasions the editors have done this manually.
-----------------------
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
[ Parent ]

That's exactly what Slashcode does (none / 0) (#163)
by Inoshiro on Sat Sep 07, 2002 at 03:19:47 PM EST

And is exactly what I've been advocating.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
I must disagree (none / 0) (#166)
by Arker on Sun Sep 08, 2002 at 02:33:54 PM EST

Slashcode may do it, but that doesn't make it right. This is a good example of fixing something that isn't broken. Good browsers handle those lines properly. And there are perfectly good reasons to post them at times. You should never impose a 'fix' that cuts off legitimate communication simply because a certain browser manufacturer refuses to fix their product.

[ Parent ]
Reasons (none / 0) (#167)
by ucblockhead on Sun Sep 08, 2002 at 09:45:06 PM EST

For the record: I advocate dealing with page widening only in the intro. This would leave people free to "express themselves" in the body.
-----------------------
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
[ Parent ]
So it's right.. (none / 0) (#168)
by Inoshiro on Mon Sep 09, 2002 at 02:36:34 AM EST

to have the layout messed up by anyone who cares to post a specific string?

No thanks, I think we'll start to filter incoming data.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Huh? (3.00 / 2) (#169)
by Arker on Mon Sep 09, 2002 at 04:27:18 AM EST

So it's right... to have the layout messed up by anyone who cares to post a specific string?

No, that's not what I said, and I can't imagine you are really so dense as to think that's what I said.

The keyword here is layout. Layout is a function of the browser, not of the page.

If you do implement slashcode style filtering, you will NOT be doing the right thing.

The right thing, in terms of fixing the problem you want to fix, cannot be done here. It must be done at the browser level.

I know that it is frustrating to be unable to fix a problem, but sometimes that is just the truth of the matter, and you have to accept your limitations.

The right thing? Write to the maintainers of your browser (which one is it? I'm curious) and tell them to fix it. Or switch to a browser that hasn't this bug. Set up a testpage so we can all test our browsers and see how they behave. Mine may have the same problem, I just switched OS's and browsers so I don't even know yet. Make the page a discussion, so we can compare notes as to which browser/OS combinations work properly and which need work, and what are the appropriate ways to express the need for this fix and/or submit patches to the proper people for each browser that suffers this bug. Is it only one, or is it several? Regardless, the right thing is first to recognise that the bug is not in your code, it's in n browsers where n is a number yet to be determined but greater than 0, and deal with the actual problem.

The absolute wrong thing to do would be to deliberately introduce a bug in your code to work around a bug in n browsers.

I don't want to get into the written equivelant of a shouting match with you, so I'll shut my mouth now and leave this thread be, but I absolutely could not let your last comment go by without clarifying, as it clearly didn't reflect any understanding of my point at all.

Peace

Arker



[ Parent ]
Get a clue dude (2.60 / 5) (#170)
by coryking on Mon Sep 09, 2002 at 02:50:49 PM EST

Go back to Slashdot and come back when you are living in the real world. What you are saying is mostly a thinly veiled attack on Microsoft and its browsers - or worse a "my browser is better then yours" pissing war.

Yes IE doesn't handle some page formatting correctly - but you know what - I would bet the large majority of those who read K5 are using some flavor of IE. Whether it is a formatting bug or not - most of those people don't care, they just want to see things work. And as many are a paying customer - they have a right to expect things to work - on their browser! Since Microsoft will not fix this "bug" because of silly old us, it's on us to work around it. Sometimes you need to kludge things or work around things even if you don't agree with them. It's called living in the real world.

[ Parent ]

Well summed up. (none / 0) (#181)
by Inoshiro on Thu Oct 03, 2002 at 06:18:27 PM EST

We just have too large a user base. I wanted to move to more CSS and XHTML a looong time ago, but too many NS 4.x heads complained to rusty. We had to go through and fixup a bunch of the layout because IE would crash on things like nested p tags in tables.

Browsers are horrid. Every single one of them has evil, evil bugs. Deluding yourself into thinking that people will go, "hey, my browser has a problem" is not a solution. They only think you website is fucked, because everyone else takes the pain to make compatibility.

I just wish that the more clueful websites could all take the time to make a "classic" page for NS 4.x and IE 4.x (and below), and a smarter XHTML/CSS setup for IE 5.x+ (MacIE 4.x+), Mozilla, and Opera.



--
[ イノシロ ]
[ Parent ]
Horrid (none / 0) (#182)
by rusty on Fri Oct 04, 2002 at 12:22:11 AM EST

Browsers are horrid. Every single one of them has evil, evil bugs.

Damn right. That, right there, is the only sound basis for web design.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Dues (4.84 / 13) (#150)
by MactireDearg on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 12:05:47 PM EST

* Membership dues: I'm proposing these should be voluntary, not mandatory, with language to that effect in the bylaws

Having dues be voluntary is a bad idea. I'm not looking at it from a revenue point-of-view, but from a Signal/Noise one. You shouldnt think of dues as a revenue source, but as a commitment criteria.

This is particularly important if membership carries the right to vote on the Board. From work I've done with past non-profits organizations I can tell you that having members without requiring dues leads to tons of problems. Non-paying 'members' rarely feel the same ownership and commitment that paying members do. When you have reasonable(minimal) dues for membership it usually causes the person to more fully consider their motivation and purpose for joining and for participating in voting.

By having required dues you increase the likelihood of better and more considered participation by your members. Even though the amount is minimal it still causes a psychological commitment to the organization.

I know a lot of people will argue against this point based on the 'it should be free' point of view. And I agree with that argument for participation in the site, but not for membership in the NPO. Membership in the NPO carries far more weight and responsibilities than reading and posting to K5. Requiring reasonable(minimal) membership dues from people who want to vote on the Board that will set the goals and objectives of the organization is legitimate and practical.

If you must make mistakes, it is more to your credit to make a new one each time. - Unknown

I agree (none / 0) (#154)
by TheEldestOyster on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 07:34:08 PM EST

Even though it means that I probably won't be joining (borrowing money to pay rent as it is), I agree that even a small fee will be a strong deterrent to those who don't really care about kuro5hin.
--
TheEldestOyster (rizen/bancus) * PGP Signed/Encrypted mail preferred
[ Parent ]
Adding my view, based on experience (none / 0) (#158)
by Echad on Sat Sep 07, 2002 at 12:43:29 AM EST

And that view is that you are absolutely right. If there are dues, voluntary is a bad idea. There is always, as the author of the comment pointed out (and at last count has had five of us rate his comment a 5.. pretty good going for this contentious lot ;) going to be the psychological factor, the "I'm a *real* member" versus the "cheap" folks who can't be bothered to pony up, and why should they have the same say as I do?"

Then, there will be the folks who simply don't have the funds, who will feel constrained, essentially feeling the same thing as the lout described above. Both are wrong - paying shouldn't affect a person's perception as to whether they are a bona fide member and entitled to the same rights, but in this imperfect world, it does.

My suggestions are that dues either be scrapped entirely -- which is the lesser of the two preferences, since there is that psychological tendency to feel more committed to things we pay for, even when the payment is de minimis, or that a small dues be instated, and by small, I do mean affordable, meagre, "do-able", affordable for pretty much anyone who can afford bus fare and basic groceries. If there is still a problem with the amount, the person in question can submit a confidential request for a waiver -- but I really don't see that happening as the dues I'm envisioning would be affordable even to the person below who noted that he borrows to pay his rent.

That's my opinion. Dues. Not Voluntary. And Minimal in nature, affordable to all. Nothing that carries even the meriest whiff of elitism.

I have the misfortune to have mis-spent ;)4 years obtaining law school (yes, I then passed the bar) and have had some experience with NPOs.. although if you look at the NYS statutory law, there is very little, relatively speaking, on the topic.


Nothing says "no nookie" like a house on wheels!
[ Parent ]

Sponsorships (5.00 / 1) (#161)
by Greyjack on Sat Sep 07, 2002 at 10:38:27 AM EST

Membership dues should most definitely be mandatory.  If there's a situation where someone really wants to be, and obviously should be, a member, but can't pay the dues (for lack of money, they're in a different country and don't have a usable payment mechanism, etc), they can try and find someone to sponsor their membership.

I've got enough disposable income that I could probably sponsor a couple or three needy people (depending on how much dues run, of course).

Rather than letting people bypass the membership dues, perhaps let interested supporters put cash into a sponsorship pool, and from there let the directors (or the supporters who put the $$$ in if they're interested) approve applications from people who need it?

(apologies if this explanation is a bit rough--I'm still recovering from a bit too much Glenlivet last night)

--
Here is my philosophy: Everything changes (the word "everything" has just changed as the word "change" has: it now means "no change") --Ron Padgett


[ Parent ]
tell me about your database (5.00 / 4) (#152)
by mattw on Fri Sep 06, 2002 at 05:14:58 PM EST

Not to bother you with details, but I'm curious which tables have too-large indexes to sort? I'd just like to note this for future reference, as I have certain mysql tables myself that are getting very large. I'm not familiar with scoop, but I'll go look up the schema in your tarball if you just name the tables.


[Scrapbooking Supplies]
Fix for peak performance problems (4.25 / 4) (#159)
by enterfornone on Sat Sep 07, 2002 at 03:11:16 AM EST

Set up an ACL so that during working hours EST, K5 is inaccessable to those inside EST. They are supposed to be working, after all.

--
efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
speaking as a GMT-er (none / 0) (#178)
by ninja on Sat Sep 21, 2002 at 07:03:26 AM EST

I would have to agree :)

[ Parent ]
Screw 'em (4.00 / 3) (#160)
by nyxxxx on Sat Sep 07, 2002 at 05:31:52 AM EST

It's your site, do what you want and everyone else can go to hell.

Or... (none / 0) (#173)
by TheSleeper on Wed Sep 11, 2002 at 10:28:53 AM EST

...they could go to another site. But I don't think that Rusty wants people to do that, so taking the "go to hell" attitude is probably a bad idea.

[ Parent ]
but, (1.00 / 1) (#179)
by nyxxxx on Sat Sep 21, 2002 at 10:42:41 AM EST

Remember the fable by Aesop where the moral of the story was, "you can't please everyone, so you might as well please yourself"?

[ Parent ]
For fixing crapflooding diarist's.. (4.00 / 1) (#171)
by tonyenkiducx on Tue Sep 10, 2002 at 05:22:33 AM EST

How about secretly hiding diaries that are detected as crapfloods, so that only the person who posted them can see them? If you ban or delete these idiots there just going to sign up again. At least this way you can control them.

Tony.
I see a planet where love is foremost, where war is none existant. A planet of peace, and a planet of understanding. I see a planet called utopia. And I see us invading that planet, because they'd never expect it
Probably wouldn't work (none / 0) (#172)
by TheSleeper on Wed Sep 11, 2002 at 10:27:11 AM EST

It's a nice idea, but it would be easy to get around: The crapflooder can use a second account to see if he has been secretly 'hidden'.

I'm curious: An email address is required to register for K5. Are the crapflooders mostly using addresses from free email services like Yahoo and Hotmail? If this is the case (and I'm guessing it is), what about a "second-class citizen" status for people who register with those addresses, which prevents them from posting diaries? They could (relatively easily) get promoted to normal status, simply by posting a bit and getting decent ratings, or by buying a paid membership.

Of course, this plan would be an annoyance for people who have no other option for an email address (I registered with a Hotmail account, myself), but not a big one.

[ Parent ]

My point was.. (none / 0) (#176)
by tonyenkiducx on Thu Sep 12, 2002 at 06:39:09 AM EST

..to secretly do this, then they wouldnt even know to check. I know its pretty hard to hide things like this but lets face it, 99% of people who spend there spare time annoying people wouldnt have the know-with-all to figure it out.

Tony.
I see a planet where love is foremost, where war is none existant. A planet of peace, and a planet of understanding. I see a planet called utopia. And I see us invading that planet, because they'd never expect it
[ Parent ]
Have you tried this? (5.00 / 1) (#174)
by squee on Wed Sep 11, 2002 at 12:10:20 PM EST

Lingerd might help performance http://www.iagora.com/about/software/lingerd/ featured recently on newsforge http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/09/05/1858256.shtml?tid=30

Nope (5.00 / 1) (#175)
by rusty on Wed Sep 11, 2002 at 04:08:04 PM EST

Apache's keeping up just fine. It's the database that's causing problems.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Rusty Doesn't Care Anymore (none / 0) (#177)
by drquick on Sun Sep 15, 2002 at 02:07:42 AM EST

A-haa, but Rusty debates on K5 using an alias, um... I think you get the point

membership requirements (2.00 / 2) (#180)
by cronian on Tue Oct 01, 2002 at 09:10:48 PM EST

I think membership should require maybe a post or two on the site with a ratings above a certain amount or so at least. That would have prevent others from taking over K5. Now what exactly is the reason for the unapointed members and who exactly is going to choose the first members. Maybe, I am just new to this discussions but I missed a lot of details in there.

We perfect it; Congress kills it; They make it; We Import it; It must be anti-Americanism
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