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[P]
K5 Monthly Update, October 2003

By rusty in Site News
Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:18:17 AM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

This month: Code work, known bugs, rating stats, and good CMF news.


Site work

After the rating changes and associated code update, I discovered and fixed a problem with the archive which had apparently been keeping it from updating for a while. It's now back up to date, which means everything older than about nine months is archived, and it seems to working again.

Numerous bugs in the new code were fixed, with a couple of notable exceptions:

  • Nancy Drew and the Case of the Missing Stories: There are some archived stories and diaries that show up on index pages, but falsely claim to be unfound when you try to display the whole story. All I know right now is they are there in the database. I don't know why they aren't showing up. I will get to this one soon.
  • Rating old pre-rated comments: If you have a comment that got one or two ratings under the old rating system, and you go to rate it now, your rating will be saved, but the comment's existing score doesn't change. This is because the new system requires four ratings to update the comment with a score, but doesn't actually un-score comments that already have one. Considering it's a moot point from here on out, it doesn't seem very pressing, and probably won't be fixed unless someone really wants to send a patch.
Otherwise, performance has been, since the archive fix, in a state which I will not characterize in any particular way for fear of drawing the wrath of the gods back down upon us. Let's just say that "bad" isn't a word I'd use and leave it at that.

The Long-Awaited New Database Server...

...will be long-awaited a while longer. I'm told (after finally getting someone to answer the question) that the old new one was somehow "misappropriated," and the new new one has arrived at the colo. It has not yet appeared on our network, so I have no real proof of this. I continue to pester them daily.

Rating stuff

Yes, I did change the threshold to four ratings instead of six. Many of you noticed, and in fact many of you asked for it beforehand, and I thought you were right. It wasn't meant to be a secret, I just don't always post about it every time I tweak a knob, so if something seems to have been changed, you can be pretty sure I changed it. :-)

I collected some numbers that may or may not be interesting to fans of meta-wankery K5 statistical analysis. It's been about three weeks since the change, so I broke down ratings as a percentage of total from the last three weeks, the three weeks preceding the change, and all-time before the change.

The data looks like this:

Since the change:

Rating   Number  Percentage
------   ------  ----------
  3      39406      49% 
  2       9591      12% 
  1       7657       9% 
-1,0     23822      30% 

Total    80476  

Last three weeks before the change:

Rating   Number  Percentage
------   ------  ----------
  5      47123      59% 
  4       7147       9% 
  3       4749       6% 
  2       4546       6% 
  1      13161      16% 
  0       3124       4% 
 
Total    79850

All-time, before the change:

Rating   Number  Percentage
------   ------  ----------
  5      461345     62% 
  4       72431     10% 
  3       47521      6% 
  2       34850      5% 
  1       96919     13% 
  0       32675      4% 

Total    745741

First, the last three weeks before the change matches pretty well with the all-time percentages, though shifted downward slightly. Obviously zero ratings have increased dramatically since then, though total rating activity has remained pretty close to what it was before.

I wanted to check out the effect on hidden comments, and it will probably surprise no one to find that there are more hidden now than before. Since looking at the three weeks right before the change for comparison doesn't really work here (since comments posted earlier could be and were hidden after the ratings changed), I picked a random three week period in April of this year to compare to.

Total comments in the last three weeks.....21169
Hidden comments in the last three weeks.......75

Total comments, April 1 to April 22........40770
Hidden comments, April 1 to April 22..........13

What does it all mean? Your guess is as good as mine. I have a few ideas about what's going on though. Obviously there are many more people able to rate comments zero now. Previously, someone who wasn't trusted might have rated something one that she might now rate zero, helping to hide it as opposed to actually helping keep it un-hidden. Since hidden comments are now optionally visible to everyone, there may not be as much social pressure against using that rating, since you are not permanently "censoring" anything. Not that you were before, but there was more of a perception that you were, and it was harder to see things that had been hidden. Also the new scale is shifted more in favor of hiding than the old one was. My guess is that some combination of all these factors is going on, but I have no particular proof of which is more important, if any.

I can say that no one has emailed me about rating abuse since the change happened, so in that sense at least it was successful. I think the minimum number of ratings is to thank for that, since it seemed like the majority of "modstorms" consisted of someone going on a tear against someone else and then getting it out of his system and feeling kind of silly about it. I think when that happens now, no one really notices.

It is also interesting to note that there were almost twice as many comments in that three week period in April as in the past three weeks. There were about the same proportion more stories as well. Just as another random data point, there were 48306 ratings made during that three weeks in April. What all of that means, I leave to you to decide.

CMF News

At last, we get to the thing I've been putting off writing this in order to be able to include. The first CMF directors meeting will be taking place today, October 29th, by teleconference. It gets underway at 1pm PST (4pm EST and 9pm GMT, to cover the directors timezone spread).

Thanks to MattOly, if all goes well anyone can listen in live online as it happens. Tragically, we can only stream in .wma format right now. Matt's working on getting mp3 streaming, but it won't be ready for today. Anyway, if you can listen to streaming windows media (and I'm told it can be done on Linux -- perhaps a commenter would like to explain how), it'll be at mms://63.251.167.39/ovs3, starting at 1pm PST. After the call is done it will also be converted to mp3 and put up on the CMF site (see below), if you can't listen live and still want to hear it. If you plan to listen to the call, you might want to take a look at the agenda first.

The CMF website is also temporarily live with a lame static page so I can at least get news up on it. I'm working on the proper site, but the news page will be updated in the meantime when things happen. I will get the things we do have so far up there as well, as soon as I can.

If you're interested in the CMF, there are finally some ways to communicate with us and, more importantly, each other. We've got two mailing lists, both at lists.collaborativemedia.org. CMF-directors is a list that anyone can join but only directors can post to, and CMF-discuss is open posting. And yes, there are archives. There is also an IRC channel at #cmf on irc.slashnet.org where interested folks have been known to hang out.

In conclusion

I would like to point out that, in my opinion, a monthly update means that it happens at least once a month, and preferably not on the last day of one month and the first of the next. Not necessarily that there are exactly 30 (or 31) days between updates. So please don't panic if thirty days goes by and I haven't updated yet, as I probably have a reason. If a month comes and goes without an update in it, then you may excoriate me to your heart's content. :-)

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Poll
I plan to tune in to the conference call:
o Yes 17%
o No 82%

Votes: 52
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o mms://63.2 51.167.39/ovs3
o the agenda
o CMF website
o lists.coll aborativemedia.org
o Also by rusty


Display: Sort:
K5 Monthly Update, October 2003 | 106 comments (106 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
question (2.53 / 15) (#1)
by Night In White Satin8 on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:23:23 AM EST

when i rate something, i can't unrate it. IIRC this wasn't always the case. Is this a bug or a "feature"? I made a mistake today and wanted to unrate something (after thinking about it) but I found I couldn't. Thanks.
Why did rusty take away my story writing/diary writing privilege for no legitimate reason?
Was always the case (2.57 / 14) (#2)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:24:41 AM EST

It's always worked that way. Arguably it shouldn't, but it has.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
OMG WTF LOL (1.00 / 23) (#3)
by Night In White Satin8 on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:25:29 AM EST

thanks
Why did rusty take away my story writing/diary writing privilege for no legitimate reason?
[ Parent ]
ummm (none / 0) (#87)
by Fuzzwah on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 07:54:09 PM EST

I was able to modify a rating the other day:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2003/10/7/1375/17532/29#29

--
The best a human can do is to pick a delusion that helps him get through the day. - God's Debris
[ Parent ]

You can change the rating (none / 2) (#88)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 08:17:09 PM EST

You can make the rating anything you want it to be, but once you've rated you can't un-rate. You can only change the rating's value.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Uber-Minor Bugs (2.33 / 12) (#4)
by mcc on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:39:04 AM EST

I have two minor bugs in K5 I have noticed recently. I am uncertain if they would best be posted here, or at scoop.kuro5hin, or what. I will post them as a comment here for the heck of it.
  1. If you use a \ in "Auto Format" mode, it disappears. If you type "\\", however, you get a single \. This does not happen in other modes. Is this a bug or a feature?
  2. User pages do not seem to work when complex characters are in the user name. For an example of this, go to a comment by user "/dev/trash" and click on his username. His user page returns a not found error.


---
Aside from that, the absurd meta-wankery of k5er-quoting sigs probably takes the cake. Especially when the quote itself is about k5. -- tsubame
Another minor bug (2.60 / 5) (#5)
by Stick on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 03:04:39 AM EST

It doesn't show your name in the diary preview.


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
That's a feature (3.00 / 10) (#15)
by curien on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 06:54:47 AM EST

In autoformat, backslash is an escape (just like in C). If I surround a word is askterisks, it gets bold, like this, but if I surround it in escaped asterisks ('\*' [1]), it looks like *this*. Get it?

[1] To get that to show up correctly, I had to type \\* (of course, to get that to display correctly, I typed... :-} ).

--
Screw teh tiger woods! I am teh Lunix Tarballs!
[ Parent ]

Auto format really screws up (3.00 / 5) (#20)
by enfilade on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 08:47:52 AM EST

in story mode sometimes, particularly with lists. It doesn't seem to do it in comments. It'll add spurious <br> tags that multiply each time you preview. This happened a while ago, so it might be fixed now.


[ Parent ]
Maybe it's spellcheck (none / 3) (#27)
by curien on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:26:39 AM EST

Autoformat and spellcheck don't play nice, even in comments. Maybe that's the problem?

--
Screw teh tiger woods! I am teh Lunix Tarballs!
[ Parent ]
Yeah, that's known too (3.00 / 5) (#42)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:36:00 AM EST

That happens when you write a story in auto-format and put it up for editing, and then edit it later on in auto-format. The first set of auto-formatting gets converted to html tags, but then when you're editing it tries to auto-format again, hence the expanding strings of brs and such. Right now, the only solution is to change your mode to html formatted when you're editing, or to keep your story in a text file and use your original source for editing instead of what comes up in the box.

I think this hasn't been fixed because no one has really come up with a good way to fix it yet.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

As far as I can see (3.00 / 4) (#48)
by gazbo on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:48:20 AM EST

There is only one way to fix it, and you've probably thought of it over and over; you need to store the parsed and unparsed texts separately.

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

Blah (none / 3) (#51)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 11:24:14 AM EST

Not an idea I am fond of. Another option would be to apply the formatting codes "live" at the time of display, which I'm also not particularly fond of. Beyond those two we've got the idea of back-translating the html into auto-formatting codes on edit, which would be a nightmare. So most likely you're right that the only plausible option is saving the source and display textx separately.

It's possible that the autoformat source could be saved only until the story is in voting, which would help a bit. But then you get into a relative lot of work for what is a very small bug, which probably explains why it hasn't been fixed yet.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Implementation (none / 2) (#54)
by gazbo on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 11:36:48 AM EST

Yeah, I meant it was the only sensible solution I could think of.

On the plus side, implementation isn't necessarily that much of a nightmare, in that the original text can be stored in a totally separate table, so for close to 100% of accesses the system wouldn't know the difference (and wouldn't have the negative impact on the DB server). You'd only need reference it when editing a story, and as you say you could even prune the table once a story was posted, or at the very least when it was archived.

But as you also say, it's such a minor bug...

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

Suggestion: Store it in an HTML comment (none / 0) (#97)
by roiem on Fri Oct 31, 2003 at 01:28:27 AM EST

Then strip HTML comments when it goes to vote.
90% of all projects out there are basically glorified interfaces to relational databases.
[
Parent ]
Oh, and the thing about /dev/trash (2.75 / 4) (#30)
by curien on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:33:51 AM EST

Gawd, that's a stupid bug. It's because the character '' is special in a URL. The '' should be URL-encoded to 2F, making the link to his user page http://www.kuro5hin.org/users/%2fdev%2ftrash. It looks like there's a double-decoding bug in Scoop (this is possibly a major security hole), so it won't work. On top of that, when the link is generated by scoop, it fails to URL-encode usernames.

--
Screw teh tiger woods! I am teh Lunix Tarballs!
[ Parent ]
How did you get a phone on a yacht? [nt] (1.52 / 17) (#6)
by Stick on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 03:06:44 AM EST




---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
satellite! (2.25 / 12) (#17)
by tps12 on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 08:28:30 AM EST

Welcome to the 80's, dude!

[ Parent ]
just karma whoring (2.48 / 27) (#7)
by martingale on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 03:20:55 AM EST

If mms: is greek to you but Debian isn't, then here's how to proceed if you want to listen in on the CMF. As root on a Debian Linux system, type

apt-get install mplayer

This will install mplayer, which knows how to read mms streams. To actually do so, you'll have to type (no need to be root)

mplayer mms://63.251.167.39/ovs3

However, I suggest you save the stream into a file so you can listen to it 27 times and thereby make informed interjections in future discussions. To do so, type

mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile xxx.wma mms://63.251.167.39/ovs3

This will create the xxx.wma file, but won't actually play it for you. Luckily, Debian is multitasking, so you can open a second terminal and start playing the xxx goodness even while it saves. Simply type

mplayer xxx.wma

Now bring on the karma!

Mplayer is not (yet) in Debian (3.00 / 13) (#8)
by ggeens on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 03:33:26 AM EST

If you tried that, you probably got the reply that the package mplayer doesn't exist.

Solution: go to apt-get.org, and search for mplayer. That will give you the line to add in sources.list

L'enfer, c'est les huītres.


[ Parent ]
oops (2.75 / 12) (#9)
by martingale on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 04:00:46 AM EST

I forgot that I've set up my apt sources list. An alternative to your suggestion is as follows:

As root, you can edit the file /etc/apt/sources.list and add the following line to it:

deb http://marillat.free.fr/ testing main

No! Don't make me give back all the karma, please ;-)

[ Parent ]

Maths skillz (2.83 / 12) (#10)
by gazbo on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 04:33:20 AM EST

Previously, someone who wasn't trusted might have rated something one that she might now rate zero, helping to hide it as opposed to actually helping keep it un-hidden.

I'm not sure that rating something 1 on a system with threshold 1 can be said to help keep it unhidden...

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

Um (2.75 / 4) (#39)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:28:51 AM EST

Yeah, I guess not, really. Ok, please disregard that point, and pretend all I said was the bit about ratings stuff zero now that they might have perforce rated one before. It was very late, and if that was the only thing I got wrong, it'll be a miracle. :-)

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Sentence Parsing Skills (none / 3) (#44)
by Attackist on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:37:20 AM EST

It makes sense, you only need to re-read it while keeping in mind the old rating system and the phenomenon of averaging a group of numbers.

"See, I will let you have cow's dung instead of human dung, on which you may prepare your bread." -- God Almighty

(/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\)
[ Parent ]

Nope (none / 2) (#45)
by gazbo on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:39:52 AM EST

Still doesn't work. You'll note that rusty has said it was a mistake too.

If you want to prove me wrong, I challenge you to give me a set of ratings (under the old or new system) such that a 1 rating could unhide it.

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

You forget rounding etc. (none / 0) (#57)
by NateTG on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 12:42:13 PM EST

It's concieveable that the rating could cross some sort of internal rounding threshold in the system. Of course, this relies on the use of floating point numbers and is hardware dependant. It's not particularly likely, but it can and does happen.

[ Parent ]
Do I honestly need to point out (none / 0) (#58)
by gazbo on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 12:46:05 PM EST

That this is not only a tiny, tiny problem, but that it is also symmetrical in its effects?

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

It's not a problem at all. (none / 1) (#62)
by Kwil on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 12:58:44 PM EST

As Rusty himself was kind enough to tell me here, Scoop truncates.

That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze


[ Parent ]
IHBT [nt] (none / 2) (#46)
by gazbo on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:42:52 AM EST


-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

Oh dear (2.68 / 16) (#11)
by DullTrev on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 05:22:49 AM EST

no one has emailed me about rating abuse since the change happened
You do know you shouldn't have tempted fate there, don't you?


--
DullTrev - used to be interesting. Honest.
Yeah (2.88 / 9) (#41)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:31:04 AM EST

I know that will probably end now. But the fact remains that it was three gloriously peaceful weeks, and no one can take that away from me.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Ring ring... (2.54 / 42) (#12)
by OzJuggler on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 05:27:25 AM EST

rusty: "Hello?"

Saddam: "Saddam here."

rusty: "Oh hey Saddam, glad you could join the call, the CMF conference almost started without you."

Saddam: "The western infidel would not dare."

rusty: "Whatever. The other guys are all here, so we might as well start"

Usama: "Allah be praised!"

rusty: "Uhuhhh. Anyhoo... the first point on the agenda item is how to spend these bucketloads of cash that we've scammed out of all the kurobots. Any ideas? Dick?"

Cheney: "I was thinking along the lines of channelling these funds into more advanced domestic surveillance and mind control technologies, since kuro5hin has already been so successful for us in that regard."

Saddam: "I must agree. Detecting grassroots dissidence amongst the American imperialist pigs has never been easier! I would never have contemplated my ingenious bait-and-switch strategy if I had not known they were so touchy about guerrilla warfare."

Usama: "Death to the Christian capitalist snake!"

rusty: "Usama can't you be a bit more constructive like Saddam and Dick here? There's a lot of money we've scammed and we're not gonna spend it all on yachts, servers, and box cutters."

Usama: "Jihad against Slashdot!"

rusty: "Well that's more like it."

Cheney: "And we should rename the Conspiracy of Machiavellian Fiends to something more obscure because I think the populace are gonna figure us out pretty soon."

rusty: "Great, keep talkin'... just gotta write this in the minutes..."
"And I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together
at Osama's homo abortion pot and commie jizzporium." - Jon Stewart's gift to Bill O'Reilly, 7 Dec 2005.

Conspiracy of Machiavellian Fiends (2.00 / 6) (#23)
by wiredog on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:04:16 AM EST

I like that one...

Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

[ Parent ]
CMF should bring back TMQ! (n/t) (none / 2) (#53)
by leviramsey on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 11:33:56 AM EST



[ Parent ]
RSN! (none / 3) (#75)
by wiredog on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 03:03:17 PM EST

TLA LOL ASD FGH JKL etc etc

Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

[ Parent ]
In a perfect world... (2.87 / 8) (#52)
by killmepleez on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 11:24:15 AM EST

...that post would have been by the K5 ASCII [ENACTMENT/RE-ENACTMENT] PLAYERS, complete with phones, yachts, and caricatures of terrorists such as saddam and cheney. But no. Alas!

__
"...if there isn't a delivery mechanism, it's not a weapon of mass destruction, it's a paperweight of mass destruction."
--Parent ]
Well rusty (1.64 / 17) (#13)
by Michael Moore on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 05:46:36 AM EST

If your goal was to increase rating diversity (as you stated) you've failed miserably. Ratings are more binary than never, and the ridiculous number of -1/0 ratings is frankly shocking. By the way, what happens when you factor drduck out of the system?

--
"My life was more improved by a single use of [ecstasy] than someone's life is made worse by becoming a heroin addict." -- aphrael
P.S. (1.13 / 22) (#14)
by Michael Moore on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 05:53:06 AM EST

IMPEACH FOSTER!

--
"My life was more improved by a single use of [ecstasy] than someone's life is made worse by becoming a heroin addict." -- aphrael
[ Parent ]
and yet (2.08 / 12) (#38)
by Please grow up on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:28:40 AM EST

here you still are, posting away about how much this site sucks

how curious
(my user name should be "Please be Nice", dont pick your user name when your feeling annoyed!!)
[ Parent ]

HuSi (1.81 / 16) (#16)
by A Proud American on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 07:42:58 AM EST

I'm curious as to how you feel about a decent percentage of old K5 netizens "quitting" your site, essentially, and fleeing elsewhere (e.g. HuSi).

I didn't realize notice that they were gone until I checked out the diaries section at HuSi and seeing a bunch of names that I haven't seen on K5 in weeks.

Granted, HuSi is essentially nothing more than a free blogging site with no ads for the members (the number of original articles posted there can be counted on one hand), but I'm still curious nonetheless.

Would you ever consider offering asylum to those who have fled from K5 to HuSi but now realize the fault in their ways, or will you simply not compete with them and let people continue posting on both sites, which includes them duplicating their blogs here and there, thereby wasting both bandwidth and server space of Voxel.net and Hulver's DSL line?

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


Why we (or I, anyway) have gone (mostly) to HuSi (2.83 / 6) (#25)
by wiredog on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:10:24 AM EST

Most of us still post here on occasion, but diarize over there. Why? It's still small enough that we have a chance of getting to know most of the people over there.

Same reason I left Usenet, and then Slashdot, btw.

Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

[ Parent ]

we miss you <nt> (none / 2) (#70)
by aphrael on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:19:19 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Join Us! (none / 2) (#74)
by wiredog on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 03:02:32 PM EST

Come into the liiight!

Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

[ Parent ]
getting to know....people on a webpage...... (2.50 / 4) (#90)
by /dev/trash on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:02:13 PM EST

Okay I have heard it all now.

---
Updated NEW 10/15/2003!!
New Site, More Parks
[ Parent ]
URL please? (2.25 / 4) (#40)
by X-Nc on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:29:16 AM EST

For those of us who are clueless, could you post the URL for whatever HuSi is?

--
Aaahhhh!!!! My K5 subscription expired. Now I can't spell anymore.
[ Parent ]
Argh! K5 servers ate my comment (3.00 / 6) (#43)
by gazbo on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:36:21 AM EST

HuSi (hulver's site) is another Scoop site that is diary driven. The FP is far less frequently updated, is more informal, and there are no sections.

It is run by K5's own hulver over his home ADSL line. As he is quick to point out, it's not competing with K5, it's just got a different goal. K5 is supposed to be about collaborative media and high quality proof-read articles, HuSi is about community and diaries. That's my take on it anyhow.

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

OK, but answer me this (2.60 / 5) (#61)
by A Proud American on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 12:56:43 PM EST

What's with the cow logo?  It looks like it belongs on the t-shirt of some overweight grandmother.

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


[ Parent ]
"Quitting" (none / 1) (#80)
by ucblockhead on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 06:09:16 PM EST

Very few HuSi posters have "quit" k5.

If anything, it's the diary page we're "fleeing", and since rusty has basically said that the diaries are not the real site, I'm not sure why anyone cares.

Though I suppose some crapflooders have gotten their panties all in a wad after realizing that they were the thing that made the diaries so unattractive in the first place.

It's always amusing the way someone can act like a completely obnoxious twit and yet get upset when people don't want to be around them.

So really, honestly, you're asking the wrong person because most of the people who post on HuSi don't post there instead of here because of anything Rusty's done.
-----------------------
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
[ Parent ]

CMF Site Idea (2.50 / 10) (#18)
by eann on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 08:32:56 AM EST

Potentially maybe shouldn't www.collaborativemedia.org have a link to lists.collaborativemedia.org? Might make it feel slightly more (um...) "organized".

Do I remember something about you taking suggestions for overall CMF site design? Was there ever some (in)formal list of what kinds of things you expected to see there? If that's still open, maybe post that there (or here) too? Not that I should spend time on such things during my workdays, of course, but I might anyway. :)


Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. —MLK

$email =~ s/0/o/; # The K5 cabal is out to get you.


Yes (3.00 / 5) (#37)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:25:51 AM EST

As I mentioned, I will get links to the other things up there present-lah. :-)

Do I remember something about you taking suggestions for overall CMF site design?

ubernostrum did me up a good basic design, so that was what I was going with to start. If history is any guide, it will evolve over time to fit the needs and desires of the organization, so please do help when it's up.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Interesting stats (2.27 / 11) (#19)
by enfilade on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 08:38:58 AM EST

The hidden/normal ratio was 1:3000 before the change and it's 1:280 now. A factor of more than 10.

It's odd that people seem to be a lot more negative with the new system. Maybe that's because fewer people are posting "courtesy" 3s as you can't see them unless there is four ratings.

One minor irk I have with the system is that everything is between 0-3. This is a needlessly compressed range and makes it harder to judge a comment without going into decimal places. I'm just talking out my ass (and I'm not a subscriber so I'm not about to whine about anything), but I'd kinda prefer it if it was between 0 and 9 instead of 0 and 3, as you could see "that's a 6 comment" instead of "that's a 1.95 comment". Multiplying by 3 doesn't seem that hard to do, but if it's it already in the DB it's probably too late, right?

Re: comments dropped by half. HuSi might be responsible, but it doesn't have that much traffic. I think the comment quality might have increased, though. And that's the main thing.

There were about the same proportion more stories as well.

Hmm, maybe we need more stories. Well, just wait until my exam period is over and I might have one to submit.

I agree (2.50 / 4) (#24)
by mcherm on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:08:28 AM EST

Actually, I agree with the suggestion to widen the range. I'm just not sure quite how to do it. Perhaps multiply all ratings by 2 or by 3? It's not a big deal either way.

-- Michael Chermside
[ Parent ]
I disagree (none / 2) (#55)
by Xcyther on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 11:42:10 AM EST

You either like the comment (+1)
Dont care (so you shouldnt rate it either way)
Dont like the comment (-1)
are uber and dont like the comment  (-2)

simple as that.

_________________________________________
"Insydious" -- It's not as bad as you think

[ Parent ]

Ahh, the Good Old Days (none / 3) (#78)
by QuickFox on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 04:25:21 PM EST

Even with the new system we could have the old 1-5 range back. It would be so simple, just use the list we have now but with every step twice as large:

   none
   Hide (-1)
   Discourage (1)
   Neutral (3)
   Encourage (5)

The old 1-5 range was easy to interpret and we're all used to it. I can't get used to 1-3.

(With the compressed 1-3 scale, Hide is twice as strong as it was before, that's why it becomes -1 if we double the distance between the points.)

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]

Mozilla/Firebird Rendering (2.63 / 11) (#21)
by Bios_Hakr on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:01:20 AM EST

Has anyone else noticed that the front page is shifted in Firebird?  IE and Moz don't seem to have a prob.

Is it a Firebird prob, or a Rusty prob?

must be firebird (2.75 / 4) (#47)
by calimehtar on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:43:30 AM EST

try getting the latest version - mine is fine (0.7 Mac os x)

+++

The whole point of the Doomsday Machine is lost if you keep it a secret.


[ Parent ]
The problem started with Firebird 0.7 for me... (none / 1) (#63)
by MyDyingDuck on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 01:01:49 PM EST

The previous versions were OK.
--
They're seeding the clouds today.
Watch nothing's gonna go your way.

[ Parent ]
Firebird 0.7 (none / 2) (#65)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 01:26:07 PM EST

I've heard a raft of bug reports from Firebird 0.7 users. It seems to be buggy.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Question (none / 1) (#69)
by aphrael on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:18:39 PM EST

how does one hear a raft? *maybe* if the water is really still or something, but even then it's hard to imagine.

[ Parent ]
a possible scenario (none / 1) (#76)
by skotolux on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 03:04:01 PM EST

Perhaps rusty was referring to the sound a raft makes when it is dragged across a sandy beach or rocky shoreline. In my experience, dragging a raft in said manner causes a light, but definitely perceptible, scratching sound.

However perhaps a more disconcerting issue is what are these bug reports doing in a raft in the first place? Without the appropriate PPE and safety (life) vests, these reports could be in grave danger of being lost or damaged beyond repair. Rafting can be a dangerous pastime.

[ Parent ]

A-hem (none / 1) (#77)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 03:21:44 PM EST

Raft, first definition.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
it shifted.... (none / 0) (#89)
by /dev/trash on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:58:58 PM EST

In Mozilla 1.6a for me.

---
Updated NEW 10/15/2003!!
New Site, More Parks
[ Parent ]
Tragically I'll be at work at 1 PST (2.16 / 12) (#22)
by Tex Bigballs on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:03:34 AM EST

so I guess I'm going to miss the CMF dog and pony  show. I'm sure it will be a hoot, but I'm not sure I feel like sitting through the commercials for johnny's salon article or pdf novels.

Golly Tex (none / 2) (#32)
by johnny on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:52:51 AM EST

What a disappointment! We had planned the add campaign with you in mind!

yr frn,
jrs
Get your free download of prizewinning novels Acts of the Apostles and Che
[ Parent ]
Eh? I don't get it (2.33 / 6) (#33)
by Tex Bigballs on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:59:02 AM EST

are you getting paid for referring people to register accounts on nytimes.com now?

The question all K5ers are asking themselves is when will rusty clamp down on johnny's shameful ploys at cashgrabbing?

[ Parent ]

not only that (2.60 / 5) (#34)
by johnny on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:02:33 AM EST

but we're grabbing biometrics on your typing patterns & selling to John Poindexter for the (now clandestine) Total Information Awareness program!

yr frn,
jrs
Get your free download of prizewinning novels Acts of the Apostles and Che
[ Parent ]
I just wanted to commend you (1.87 / 16) (#26)
by rmg on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:15:15 AM EST

On your new moderation system. It is truly a triumph of your creative genius. When it comes down to it, this is what programming is really about -- a man, a deluge of essentially random data from his users, and meagre resources afforded him by his hardware and software. In the face of great adversity, you have pulled it off once again, and for that I commend you.

I must remark, however, that there is one more social problem around here that should likely be addressed with a technical solution -- the lack of articles. I know that our current article rate is only somewhat less than it has ever been, but I feel that at a rate of only six or so articles per week, the diaries are taking over as the locus of discourse. The result is tendencies disturbing trend toward "meta-wankery," as you so eloquently put it. K5 is slipping toward blogging and away from technology and culture. We need change. Technological change.

In the past we have talked about a columns section. I have badgered you about it quite a bit already, but I see no reason not to use this opportunity to badger you some more. For those just tuning in, there used to be a columns section, but because it was basically the same as any other section with the same voting criteria, no one bothered to write regular columns for it. I suggest that this situation might be remedied if the voting requirements were relaxed and the threshhold set at 45 or so. This would give authors a much better chance and allow for better continuity of serial columns and the like. While it is easy enough to game the voting queue, as A Proud American has recently showed us, it is not something that most people are eager to do. Allowing authors a section where they stand a better chance will encourage those who do not want to waste their time getting voted down (or rather, not getting voted up enough). It will also encourage a wider diversity of opinion and topics, as currently articles (with the notable exception of Site News) must meet with almost overwhelming approval from the voters.

At a site such as this, it is important to keep discussion moving. When we do not have enough articles, we will inevitably see stagnation and ennui develop -- hence the current malaise we hear so much about. Also, by drawing attention away from the diary section, we will combat the mouthbreathing blogger feel the site has had lately. Finally, we will encourage participation, which can only be a good thing.

As a final note, if this idea should ever be implemented, I think it is vitally important that this new section maintain its identity as a seperate entity in the same way that diaries are now seperate from articles. The columns section should maintain its own integrity and not become a dumping ground for failed articles nor mix randomly with the other section articles. To allow such a situation would only mutually dilute the article and columns sections.

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks

I'm trolling now. (1.50 / 18) (#29)
by rmq on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:32:07 AM EST

Will someone pleeeeease bite? Pretty plz with sugar on top?

----
in the future, there will be fewer, but better, k5ers. rmg for editor.
produce porn? check out dave dean for some phat beats.

[ Parent ]
This just keeps happening... (1.30 / 13) (#31)
by rmg on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:40:14 AM EST

I honestly don't remember writing the this at all. I wonder what's going on with me ... ?

Oh well, since scoop has (due to some error, I imagine) given me the option of modding myself up, I guess I might as well do it.

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks
[ Parent ]

Take a magnifying glass (3.00 / 3) (#79)
by QuickFox on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 04:36:11 PM EST

If you look closely, you may notice a slight difference in the very last letter of the username on the comment that you don't remember writing.

(Or were you aware of this all the time and IHBT? Hmmm...)

Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]

The UID's are different too [n/t] (none / 1) (#82)
by zrail on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 06:21:29 PM EST



[ Parent ]
What a coincidence! (none / 1) (#86)
by QuickFox on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 07:16:22 PM EST



Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fi
[ Parent ]
CHOMP. (none / 2) (#68)
by aphrael on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:17:57 PM EST

Eeew. that tasted bad. *spit*

[ Parent ]
I can't help but notice this story has no votes... (1.18 / 16) (#28)
by skyknight on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 09:29:37 AM EST

but that's OK, because I think democracy stinks anyway. Skyknight for emperor! Meta-wankery for all!

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
Site News doesn't get voted on (none / 0) (#94)
by RadiantMatrix on Thu Oct 30, 2003 at 11:33:54 AM EST

It would be silly to put a Site News update through the voting queue.

----------
I don't like spam - Parent ]

I realize that. (none / 2) (#95)
by skyknight on Thu Oct 30, 2003 at 11:43:32 AM EST

Neither you nor the ten people who modded down my comment have much of a sense of humor. Bah!

It's not much fun at the top. I envy the common people, their hearty meals and Bruce Springsteen and voting. --SIGNOR SPAGHETTI
[ Parent ]
Con Call (2.85 / 7) (#35)
by ad hoc on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:07:43 AM EST

Your timing is impeccable. This should be hitting right about the same time, eh?

Expect some down time.


--

Yeah, well (none / 2) (#67)
by aphrael on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:17:12 PM EST

we tried to tell the sun to knock it off, but it's an obstreporous child, and doesn't listen.

[ Parent ]
The one change I have noticed... (2.57 / 14) (#36)
by gzt on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 10:09:19 AM EST

...is that drduck can rate almost every single comment in one of my 100+ comment diaries a zero without having it be called modbombing [and every single one of my comments in that diary, to boot]. And that I had a rather innocuous comment hidden for a short period of time. I don't really care, I find these numbers in a database rather irrelevant. I'm just amused that your system is, in some ways, now broken. Or is 20% of all ratings being zero acceptable?

drduck: rate 2 if you believe ratings are meaningless numbers which we pay far too much attention to.

Actually: (none / 2) (#72)
by gzt on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:35:18 PM EST

No, it's not really broken, because now those extra zeroes have little real effect. I think we're doing just fine, and in a few weeks, there'll be fewer zeroes handed out and we will have fewer hidden comments. If not, we'll still be fine. Keep up to good work.

[ Parent ]
No offense, but... (2.66 / 12) (#49)
by ucblockhead on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 11:07:12 AM EST

The number of comments posted in any given period is meaningless given the uptime troubles.
-----------------------
This is k5. We're all tools - duxup
Probably (2.66 / 6) (#50)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 11:20:46 AM EST

Except for the ratio of posted to hidden, I'm sure you're right.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Well, maybe not. (none / 1) (#73)
by noogie on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:56:12 PM EST

The psychology of the hidden-comment poster may be more determined to post. crapflooding is not giver-uppers. it may take skill and talent, but it also takes blood and sweat to be the best - and a bit of dodgy uptime is going to stop them.

Contrast this with some boring liberal or boring iraq-carer who has other stuff to do who won't try too hard.


*** ANONYMIZED BY THE EVIL KUROFIVEHIN MILITARY JUNTA ***
[ Parent ]

True, (none / 1) (#66)
by aphrael on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:16:33 PM EST

but the last week and a half or so hasn't had much problem with uptime. :)

[ Parent ]
Two things (2.40 / 5) (#56)
by /dev/trash on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 12:38:11 PM EST

I'm told (after finally getting someone to answer the question) that the old new one was somehow "misappropriated," and the new new one has arrived at the colo.  

It was stolen?  Did you file a police report?

Have MattOly set up an icecast server and he can stream mp3 or ogg.

---
Updated NEW 10/15/2003!!
New Site, More Parks

Not stolen (none / 3) (#59)
by rusty on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 12:48:56 PM EST

Just, I think, used for something else.

And yeah, I believe Matt is setting up icecast, but it's apparently not as simple as it should be, or something. I don't know all the details. We should have mp3 for the next one, anyway.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

icecast... (none / 3) (#60)
by /dev/trash on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 12:53:05 PM EST

I had it working once, then I upgraded.  I wish I could it to work again, I'd love to listen to the radio in my room, in the kicthen.

---
Updated NEW 10/15/2003!!
New Site, More Parks
[ Parent ]
buy a radio (nt) (2.66 / 12) (#64)
by codemonkey_uk on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 01:04:01 PM EST


---
Thad
"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way." - Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]
Okay Mr. Smarty Pants... (none / 1) (#81)
by /dev/trash on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 06:11:29 PM EST

I have a radio in the kitcehn but the reception sucks.  The reception the bedroom is perfect.

---
Updated NEW 10/15/2003!!
New Site, More Parks
[ Parent ]
Question (2.25 / 12) (#71)
by CodeWright on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 02:20:21 PM EST

Why hasn't drduck been censured for abuse of the ratings system? He consistently rates comments to -1/0 against the established rating guidelines.

His rating privileges should be revoked.

--
"Jumpin Jesus H. Christ riding a segway with a little fruity 1 pint bucket of Ben and Jerry's rainbow fairy-berry crunch in his hand." --
The new ratings system addresses this issue (1.33 / 6) (#83)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 06:28:30 PM EST

It takes 4 ratings before the rating is shown.  Why would rusty take his account away when it's so easy to make a new one?

I'm sick of hearing of drduck.  Next time I'll 0 your comment.  Besides, I haven't even seen him around in a while.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
[ Parent ]

He's everywhere (none / 3) (#84)
by CaptainSuperBoy on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 07:00:50 PM EST

drduck is everywhere. He's taken to rating every diary comment 0. It doesn't bother me too much since ratings don't really matter any more, but still. I think it'd be funny if his tens of thousands of ratings all got wiped. Would he post a comment if that happened? Hopefully.

--
jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.
[ Parent ]
He'll never post (none / 2) (#85)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Wed Oct 29, 2003 at 07:10:19 PM EST

That's his MO.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
[ Parent ]
dudes, ignore him (2.57 / 7) (#91)
by circletimessquare on Thu Oct 30, 2003 at 03:46:49 AM EST

he pissed me off for one week months ago, but now i just think of him as some stupid script someone has running on their computer somewhere

you can remove his profile, but the above poster is right, he'll just pop up again as another user, so there is no technical solution to what he is: the negative asocial troll

the solution? completely ignore him, like i do

that is the solution to anyone you consider to be a troll: ignore them

when they get an emotional reaction from you they win, so don't let them bother you

and since he rates EVERYTHING down, he counteracts his own meaningfulness

don't provide him any meaning by letting him bother you

case closed


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

It's only a website. (none / 1) (#101)
by jabber on Sat Nov 01, 2003 at 10:10:37 PM EST

That is all.

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

CMF (none / 3) (#92)
by kalanar on Thu Oct 30, 2003 at 06:04:59 AM EST

In the telephone conversation, it was mentioned multiple times that "volunteers" would be needed outside of the board to do various "things".

Is there a list of what can be done by the outsiders? And if not, when can we expect to have something like that to be available?

I doubt that I am the only one that is interested in being involved when that time comes.  

Not yet (none / 0) (#93)
by rusty on Thu Oct 30, 2003 at 06:24:27 AM EST

I don't think anyone's got a list of what needs to be done yet, but probably the best thing would be to keep an eye on the mailing lists, at least until the proper web site is up. I will make sure there's a "How can I get involved" section there.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Alright cool. (none / 0) (#96)
by kalanar on Thu Oct 30, 2003 at 06:39:09 PM EST

I'm on both of the lists now. Thanks.

[ Parent ]
More Meta Wankery!! (2.75 / 4) (#98)
by sllort on Fri Oct 31, 2003 at 11:23:22 AM EST

Query: What percentage of active users have turned off comment hiding?
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
Dunno (none / 2) (#99)
by rusty on Fri Oct 31, 2003 at 02:29:21 PM EST

I have.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Oooh ooh me too me too (none / 0) (#100)
by sllort on Fri Oct 31, 2003 at 03:17:25 PM EST

Me too!
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]
Empirically (none / 1) (#102)
by skim123 on Sun Nov 02, 2003 at 02:39:05 AM EST

The answer is 66%. At the time of this writing, two folks have indicated they have turned it off, while I have it turned on.

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


[ Parent ]
Meta-wankery fun! (none / 0) (#106)
by GhostfacedFiddlah on Tue Nov 04, 2003 at 11:36:20 AM EST

Off the cuff suggestion - it might be an interesting feature to allow any user access to:
"SELECT COUNT(*) FROM..."

...with appropriate protections in place for the where clause.  That way you'd be able to find out for yourself.

[ Parent ]

What is comment moderation supposed to accomplish? (none / 1) (#103)
by Shren on Mon Nov 03, 2003 at 11:26:00 PM EST

Rusty, if you've answered this before, a link to an old post or story would be nice.

Briefly (none / 1) (#104)
by rusty on Mon Nov 03, 2003 at 11:50:45 PM EST

  1. Hiding stuff that is lousy and (in theory) helping thereby to keep signal higher than noise.
  2. Providing some form of collaborative sorting to help people pick out the good and skip the mediocre.
In my opinion, for K5's purposes 1 is more important than 2. I think probably the single biggest problem with comment moderation is that it doesn't serve a meaningful enough purpose here to actually work as designed. I'd probably abandon it altogether except that I don't think it actually causes any harm, and this is a very useful platform in which to experiment with different forms of moderation. Like, we don't really need it, but having it can let us try out different things and see in what ways they work, and what the unexpected side-effects are.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
goals of moderation (none / 0) (#105)
by Shren on Tue Nov 04, 2003 at 05:03:53 AM EST

I sort of suspected that the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes in this case... neither here nor there, of course. It's such a confusing issue, though, because both what it does do and what one would want it to do are entirely different questions.

It does do, to some degree, both of the things that you specify. But in a bigger way, I think it goes a long way towards making K5 successful. That is very confusing to me because it's clear to both of us (i think) that, at the same time that it makes K5 successful, it's not doing what it was designed to do.

Hmmm.

[ Parent ]

K5 Monthly Update, October 2003 | 106 comments (106 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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