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New Story-Page Text Ads

By rusty in Site News
Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:35:06 AM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)

I asked in a diary a little while back if anyone felt like they'd be upset if I introduced text ads specifically for story pages. In my admittedly tiny and probably unrepresentative sample, no one said they would, so I thought it was worth a try. So, on an experimental basis, I'm half pleased and half terrified to introduce story-page text ads. If you click on through to the full story, you'll see a fine example of one, and get some more information about them.

So there on the left right you can see what a story text ad looks like. Basically, just sort of like the regular index-page ones, but a little longer and thinner, and kind of embedded in the upper left right story body area. If the story text is long enough, it should flow underneath the ad space and take up the full page width below it. If it looks very strange on anyone's browser, please let me know. I've tested the layout on Galeon (Mozilla 1.2.1), Opera 6.11, Netscape 4.7, and Konqueror 2.2.1, all on Linux. I don't have an IE to test with, but it should render the same as Mozilla.

As usual, if you have a subscription and have ads turned off, you won't see these either, and this story should look just like any other one ever has. These ads also don't currently show up on diaries, because that seemed like it would be weird for some reason. That might change, and I'd like your thoughts on it.

The story text ads cost just $0.50 per thousand, with a minimum purchase of 20,000, making the minimum price the same $10 as the other flavors but for twice as many impressions. We serve a lot more story pages than index pages, so it makes sense to price them lower. With these ads, since there's generally plenty of vertical space, I've allowed up to 100 characters for the title and 255 characters for the body. As with the other text ads, you can optionally enable comments and get your own little ad story to go along with it.

Another little tweak I put in this time is some rate-limiting code. In the past, the first few ads we sold would burn through very quickly (sorry fluffy!), because they simply rotate in order, and if there's only one or two ads in the system they run out of impressions very fast. This ad type has some rate limiting code associated with it, so if my calculations are correct even the very first ad sold should be guaranteed to run for at least a week, assuming the minimum 20,000 impression purchase. If there aren't enough ads in the system to ensure that each will run for a week, it will just insert default "buffer" ads to take up the extra space. So you don't need to worry about being the first person to buy one and having it run out in an hour.

Why am I doing this? Mostly it's because ad sales have been very steady for quite a while, and demand has rather outpaced the limited supply of index pages we have to offer. I'm hoping that some of our more consistent advertisers (thanks guys!) will take advantage of this and increase their volume of ad purchases here, as it seems like they might want to. It is experimental, like pretty much every change, but I hope it works.

Lest this bring on a panic or the idea that K5 is failing and desperate for cash, as is usually the case when a site expands its advertising, I'm glad to be able to say that isn't the case. Actually, regular text ad sales have been very good, and subscription sales as well, and the site has astoundingly managed to turn a tiny profit for two months running now. This is good, as less time spent scrambling for cash is more time I can spend getting the long-delayed CMF running. Yes, it's still happening. It's just happening glacially.

I can also report that I have finally got the K5 Inc. financial situation straightened out (I am quite possibly the world's worst businessman, but I'm learning). So now I know exactly what it really costs to pay myself to run the place. After the fundraiser last summer, I took a 50% pay cut to conserve money, so I've been taking home $2,000 a month. With taxes and unemployment and everything else the government charges, that costs the company $2,790.03 a month, or $33,480.36 a year. It equates to a regular salary of $30,475.20 a year (the rest is stuff the company has to pay but wouldn't be reflected in my salary on paper). Hopefully this will put the horribly long-lived $70,000 figure to rest once and for all. Never again will I speak generally about money without having exact numbers in front of me. :-)

I think that's it. If you want to rush right off and buy a story ad, you can do that at the usual place. I will now, as a matter of form, ask you for any comments you might have, knowing full well that you'll give them to me whether I want them or not. :-)


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Display: Sort:
New Story-Page Text Ads | 305 comments (305 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Augh. (3.80 / 15) (#1)
by rev ine on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:37:22 AM EST

That is all.

Ack! (4.14 / 7) (#2)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:38:52 AM EST

It's all orange and blue and grey on the side of the story! I'm afraid I do not like this new style.

I think it would look better somewhere on the right side with related links or perhaps more horizontally oriented and around the HR between intro and story.

"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."

Also a Bug appears: (none / 0) (#3)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:41:39 AM EST


That seems a little off.

"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

Ha (none / 0) (#4)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:42:58 AM EST

I forgot to tell it not to appear in ad stories either. Just a minute...

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Other placement options (3.50 / 2) (#5)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:48:43 AM EST

I thought about putting it in the right-hand boxes, and didn't like that idea because most of us are extremely used to not looking over there very much. It's not that I want to distract everyone from the stories, but I also don't want to bury ads over where no one ever looks -- that wouldn't be much use for the advertisers.

I don't really like the horizontal between story and intro text idea that much either because then it kind of interposes itself in the middle of the story. I think that would be annoying.

I considered putting them in between the story and the comments, which is still a possibility, and the only other placement I don't think I hate. Give this a little time and see if you get used to it, whcih is what I'm going to be doing. If it doesn't work, I might try putting them between the story and the comments.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Format (5.00 / 2) (#14)
by Subtillus on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:17:01 AM EST

You do what you have to do to keep the mojo working, but for all intents and purposes, I'd prefer the latter to the former. (between story and comments)

While between story and comments is a lttle distracting, i find this format TOO distracting.


[ Parent ]

Adjustment time (5.00 / 2) (#21)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:25:03 AM EST

Right now, I find it a little distracting too. The unfamiliar shape draws the eye. What I'm guessing is that we'll all get used to it in a couple days, and I do think it looks better than an ad between the story and the comments would.

But that said, if it stays distracting, I will move it. I mean, I'm a reader too, and I don't want to be distracted any more than you do. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Give the ad its own column? (none / 0) (#103)
by ender81b on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:17:57 AM EST

Perhaps make the ad it's own column in the story body? I haven't looked at K5's code but perhaps something like this: <table>
<td width="100%" colspan="2">Intro Paragraph</td>
<td width="10%">Ad column here</td>
<td width="90%">Story body here</td>

Couldn't get it to align all nice but you get the idea. That might make it flow a little better, not sure if this would require a major rewrite to scoop though.

[ Parent ]
Well (5.00 / 1) (#114)
by JAM on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:22:18 AM EST

Probably and add page between the story and the comments don't look better than this but I'm for it because:

  1. It's a lot less distracting for the reader of the story.
  2. Almost everybody will see them (because almost everybody is here for the comments).

-- Sorry for my engRish (TM)
[ Parent ]
I quite agree (5.00 / 3) (#82)
by yonatan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:13:51 AM EST

Where they are now, the adds are rather irritating because of the break they introduce in the symetry.  I would much rather prefer a short, full-page-width advert. between the story and the comments.

[ Parent ]
ah well. (5.00 / 5) (#85)
by pb on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:27:51 AM EST

I say, put it on the right hand side, along with the "Sponsors"; that would (a) make sense, and (b) not distract from the actual content. Also, if you (c) aren't that strapped for cash, then your opinion on the revenue generating effects of the placement shouldn't matter.

Also, if you don't put that ad somewhere where it actually interferes with my reading of the content, (i.e., where the story is...) then I'll (d) respect you more for it, and perhaps be more inclined to look at ads once in a while, instead of having a good reason to ignore them. I know I looked at textads on kuro5hin when they were first introduced, because they were nifty. This is far from nifty.

But I will say this; I certainly wouldn't mind paying to subscribe to kuro5hin if it actually gave me some useful features or enhancements of some sort; and I don't class "turning off the annoying ads that got placed in the middle of the story for revenue generation" as a reason to subscribe. That's something on the moral level of voluntarily paying an extortionist blackmail money so he doesn't extort money from you.

On the other hand, there are other discussion sites out there, and if there aren't, maybe there should be. This is just one more way in which kuro5hin has strayed from its original goals, which I supported, and still support. It's also one more way in which it has tracked the decline of other discussion sites on the internet. I don't know if that decline is inevitable, but I'm all for staving it off.

So... is anyone else out there in favor of having a more customizable discussion site with no ads in the stories? Or in favor of discussing what features such a site should have? I personally like a lot of the facilities in /. and K5 (and ergo Scoop and Slash), and dislike almost as many.
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall
[ Parent ]

K5 had goals? (none / 0) (#171)
by Miniluv on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:21:07 AM EST

Kuro5hin is the web discussion equivalent of Seinfeld, its a site about nothing. In being about nothing it seems to have touched on a significant portion of everything. I personally like that.

Advertising can be annoying, however it seems like everything possible has been done to keep it from being ridiculous here. We still have no graphical ads (I'm choosing to forget the ridiculous OSDN period). There's a delicate balance between site integrity and advertising revenue, and so far I think its being walked rather well. I also think rusty is very wise for finding a new revenue stream now, when cashflow is good, rather than introducing a desperation measure as he's been forced to do in the past.

As for other discussion sites, the problem is that you cannot maintain a site as active as K5, let alone Slashdot, without revenue coming in, unless you're independently wealthy. Rusty is insanely lucky to have gotten the essentially free bandwidth he has for so long, and I don't think there's really anymore to be had out there. The remaining hosting sites which have quality facilities and no already donated bandwidth are virtually nil.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]

Frankely, I don't like it. (4.28 / 14) (#6)
by stfrn on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:49:15 AM EST

Embedded ads annoy me more than pop-ups most of the time- although now I am used to using mozilla's image blocker, but still I hate having the flow of text disrupted.

Does K5 really need money this much? If so, I would rather have the smaller ads apear in more places than this embedding!

"Man, I'm going to bed. I can't even insult people properly tonight." - Imperfect
What would you recomend to someone who doesn't like SPAM?

uhhh.... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by ramses0 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:17:36 AM EST

...subscribe?  Otherwise it really doesn't annoy you that much.  :^)

[ rate all comments , for great ju
Parent ]

geez.. give rusty a break. (3.00 / 1) (#16)
by Vellmont on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:17:53 AM EST

30K a year isn't really much money, so I don't fault Rusty at all for trying to supplement this (I hope he has another source of income too).  

Text ads are the least annoying form of advertisement I can think of.  Low bandwidth, fast load times, no flying crap all over my screen (sometimes covering it up with those damn flash ads).  So I don't have any problem with this at all.  

[ Parent ]

Wow!! (3.83 / 12) (#7)
by spacejack on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:50:36 AM EST

That looks AWESOME!! Nothing like a nice big vertical ad in the middle of a story to make a website feel authentic! Well done!

I fear change (4.60 / 10) (#8)
by KilljoyAZ on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:53:49 AM EST

Hold me!

Creativitiy cannot be SPELT by over 98% of all American troops. - psychologist
There, there. (4.00 / 1) (#59)
by dublet on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:02:21 AM EST

It'll be alright!

Badger. Badger. ←
[ Parent ]
In all honesty (2.25 / 16) (#9)
by medham on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:57:15 AM EST

$30,000 a year, for this? Look, it's neat as things go--but Jesus, some of us earn a living.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

What exactly do you mean? (none / 0) (#26)
by arcade on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:28:50 AM EST

If you mean that Rusty is taking out too much money, then I absolutely disagree. $30.000 isn't much to run a site such as kuro5hin.

If you think he should earn more money than that, I agree. ;)

[ Parent ]

Well (1.85 / 7) (#40)
by medham on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:39:02 AM EST

I mean that the thing is neat as things go--but Jesus, some of us earn a living.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.
[ Parent ]

Commie! (1.00 / 3) (#109)
by Spendocrat on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:44:34 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I don't get it either (none / 0) (#55)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:58:08 AM EST

What's your point?

[ Parent ]
Aw, it's medham (5.00 / 5) (#56)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:00:40 AM EST

He lives a point-optional lifestyle. Do you dare criticise his life choices?

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
point-optional (5.00 / 1) (#63)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:10:41 AM EST

heh, I'll have to remember that...

[ Parent ]
well (4.09 / 11) (#10)
by Run4YourLives on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:01:33 AM EST

I don't like it.


It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown

Honestly (3.80 / 5) (#11)
by the77x42 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:02:38 AM EST

I was able to read your whole story without looking at the text in the ad. I guess it's just like reading CNN.com only the ad is on the other side of the text.

Big deal, sites are doing this lots now. If you need the money, go ahead, if not, one of the things that makes K5 a decent place to read news is the lack of annoying ads. This ad isn't that annoying (or at least as annoying as others) and I'm open to change.

If you need to, go ahead. I'm all for everyone (including rusty) making money.

"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

I don't like it (4.64 / 17) (#12)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:03:58 AM EST

It makes k5 start to look like slashdot, where you've got ads all over the place. Two permanent ads on the right, rotating ads on the left in the middle of the story, etc. I especially don't like its placement in the middle of the story, with story text flowing around it. Ads in sidebars are much better imo.

At the very least, it'd be nice to limit the length to the same as the frontpage ones, so it's just a little box at the top/left of the story, not a sidebar taking up 2" of vertical space. I'd much prefer ads on story pages to be in the sidebar to the right, probably either above or underneath the voxel/johncompanies ads though. Having ads in the middle of stories just look cheesy.

other options (5.00 / 2) (#13)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:09:04 AM EST

Another option, if the problem is that you have more ads requests than places to serve them (which would be the only reason to put ads on more pages, I think?), is simply to raise the price of the current index-page textads. Gets you the extra money without showing extra ads.

[ Parent ]
Tricky (5.00 / 2) (#19)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:21:56 AM EST

Like I said, I'm not desperate for cash. It would be nice if there was a wee bit more padding in the budget, rather than the couple hundred dollars a month there is now. But I'm not raising my pay anytime soon anyway, and I can make that.

There is, or at least seems to be, more demand than supply. But that doesn't mean that the demand would still be there at a higher price. The price, absent all other factors, seems to be a pretty big issue in whether people buy ads. To simulate opening (and actually selling) all of the story pages, I'd have to make front page ads like $4.00 per thousand. At $5.00 they sold like week-old doughnuts. The demand crashes at some price point. We make a lot more now with them at $1.00 than we did at $5.00. It makes more sense, I think, to have more ads cheaper.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

hmm (5.00 / 4) (#41)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:41:01 AM EST

Well, from the reader's point of view, more ads cheaper, especially if they get more intrusive (like these are, in comparison to the index-page ones), isn't exactly a winning proposition. If, as you say, you're not desperate for cash, perhaps raising the price of the index-page ones somewhat, but not to the same levels as before, will provide some added cash boost (albeit maybe not as much as the story-page ads)? I'm not sure of an exact level... maybe $2 instead of $1 (but not up to $4/$5)?

That said, this ad placement isn't really terrible, but I don't particularly like it. I especially don't like the way it sort of embeds itself in stories, messing up the layout and normal paragraph flow of text. Perhaps I'm overly obsessed with pretty text formatting, but this definitely makes the text formatting less pretty. The sidebars/etc. don't, since the story still gets a section of the page with rectangular borders to render itself in.

[ Parent ]

Hmm (4.33 / 3) (#43)
by coryking on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:43:29 AM EST

Others have suggested it, so I will to. There has got to be a way to calculate the ad-rate based on how many other ads are sold. You have some "goal", say 100 ads in circ, and you just modify the price, charging as much as you can until you fill all 100 ads.

Course, the devil is in creating the algorithm. (and I'm thinking out loud) Would you change the ad rate based on the rate of time between each sucessive purchase? The shorter the interval between each purchase, you infer there is more demand, and hence jack the price up? Is the goal to level off the interval between each ad purchase? How do you factor in large ad purcheses vs small ad purchases?

Just something to chew on.

[ Parent ]

That'd suck (3.00 / 1) (#169)
by Miniluv on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:15:19 AM EST

That'd be like the way TV ads are priced, with weekly revisions based on ratings. K5 usage doesn't seem to fluctuate all that greatly, however rusty has the real stats to prove or disprove me.

My point though is that if usage doesn't fluctuate, there's no real metric upon which to base price on. Demand is a great metric, when supply is actually a limited thing.

One idea that might work for raising more money is allowing people to pay more per ad to have it rotated more frequently. Instead of, say, $1/1000 I could pay $2/1000 and get twice the frequency of impressions. Even better would be user controlled throttling, so that we don't need to rely on rusty's algorithm alone to save us from burning out too fast time wise.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]

Sweet sweet micro-economics [n/t] (2.00 / 3) (#108)
by Spendocrat on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:42:44 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If you are going to do stuff like this then... (5.00 / 1) (#180)
by Argel on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:59:39 AM EST

... you should add some more features to K5/Scoop such as:
  • Ability to have all editorial comments at the begining or end of all the comments (and still obey the sorting rules).
  • Ability to view only comments with a rank >= to some threshold.
  • Slashdot style friend/foe/buddy lists.
  • Maybe categories for comments ala Slashdot and the ability to weight them differently.
I like to view comments in the order posted, which makes the current rating system rather useless for me. As an alternative to hiding some comments, maybe you could use a different color scheme for comments below the threshold (e.g. light grey; preferably user configurable). Might be useful to do the same thing for editorial comments (e.g. medium grey).

[ Parent ]
Re: If you are going to do stuff like this then... (5.00 / 1) (#219)
by Argel on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:35:51 PM EST

I guess I should qualify that. As K5 gains in popularity it will have more and more problems that /. has. If you are going to shove these annoying ads down our throat (btw, I'd prefer the square style) then you should at least counter them with some improvements to the site. Otherwise this is just one more example of K5 degradation.

[ Parent ]
picking and choosing (4.28 / 7) (#17)
by adiffer on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:18:45 AM EST

If I could pick particular story sections in which my ad runs, I'd be even happier.  Such happiness will translate into ad purchases from me.  8)
--BE The Alien!
Yeah (none / 0) (#20)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:22:39 AM EST

Driph just suggested that to me too. That's a sensible extension, and shouldn't be too hard.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Be careful (4.50 / 2) (#189)
by X3nocide on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:50:32 PM EST

This was the first thing that came to mind, knowing the kind of paranoid ramblings that often make the queue.  And given the frequency of said ramblings, it may be problematic to offer section exclusive ads. I mean, how often does a science submission come along? I could probably purchase a science exclusive ad that would never expire for 10 dollars. I know it isn't much money, but if all the impressions aren't served, thats an oppertunity cost.  

Perhaps what would be more effective is a dual rate system.  Rate of general advertising and rate of a selected story section.  Whether the buyer chooses this or from preconfigured options, I donno at the moment, and will probably come down to which ever is easier on the hardare.

[ Parent ]

Eternal Section Ads (5.00 / 1) (#270)
by tedoneill on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 10:42:34 PM EST

How about letting the advertiser choose the section initially. The ads would run only in that section for a set time period, then any excess would be dumped back into the pool of story ads. A lot of things people advertise for are time sensitive anyway.

Example, I buy 100,000 impressions for 50 bucks and specifiy that I want them in Meta or Science. That could take forever. So, they stay there for three months (or whatever) and then they get burned off in all the other sections.


"Always be wary of any helpful item which weighs less than its operating manual." -- Terry Pratchett
[ Parent ]

Sweet... (3.33 / 6) (#18)
by thelizman on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:21:12 AM EST

As long as there are no annoying images, blinking text, or f#@!ing popups, then K5ers ought to suck it up and drive on.

Of course, some unrealistic pansy is going to wine about it, but they likely aren't the one paying the bills.

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
You'd wine (5.00 / 4) (#23)
by medham on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:26:57 AM EST

About it, if you could handle your booze, which you rather plainly cannot.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.
[ Parent ]

But instead (4.20 / 5) (#25)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:27:39 AM EST

you should just grin and beer it.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
You're a braver man than I (5.00 / 2) (#28)
by KilljoyAZ on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:30:38 AM EST

I'd just rum away as fast as I could.

Creativitiy cannot be SPELT by over 98% of all American troops. - psychologist
[ Parent ]
Ouch (none / 0) (#33)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:35:50 AM EST

But then you might end up in hock.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Sounds Whisky To Me... (5.00 / 2) (#36)
by thelizman on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:36:47 AM EST

...but then, you make it sound like someone is out tequila.

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]
Voxel provides the bandwidth for free (4.75 / 4) (#27)
by Legato Bluesummers on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:29:31 AM EST

This site really doesn't have much operating costs. It did fine for a long time without ads at all.
--And many people have ended up looking very stupid, or dead, or both.
[ Parent ]
Bandwidth may be free (5.00 / 1) (#45)
by Cloaked User on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:43:38 AM EST

But food, rent, etc isn't, and I'm assuming that this site is rusty's sole/main source of income.

That said, I hate the new ads. Then again, it's early days, and I hate most things at first, so don't take it too hard...
"What the fuck do you mean 'Are you inspired to come to work'? Of course I'm not 'inspired'. It's a job for God's sake! The money's enough and the work's not so crap that I leave."
[ Parent ]

Hmm. (none / 0) (#191)
by Legato Bluesummers on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:53:24 PM EST

But food, rent, etc isn't, and I'm assuming that this site is rusty's sole/main source of income.

Obviously Rusty needs money if this is a full time job. But it really isn't. Scoop is mostly worked on by other people like Inoshiro. Of course the content is generated by the users. Is this really a full time job for Rusty?
--And many people have ended up looking very stupid, or dead, or both.
[ Parent ]

I suspect... (4.00 / 2) (#51)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:49:16 AM EST

Rusty probably likes to do little things, like, oh... I don't know. Eat, maybe?

[ Parent ]
It's the little things (5.00 / 1) (#52)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:50:26 AM EST

That really make life worth living. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
That's what a job is for. (none / 0) (#142)
by toy on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:27:18 AM EST

Everybody else gets jobs.

My buddies

[ Parent ]
Yes (none / 0) (#173)
by Miniluv on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:24:35 AM EST

And how many of us with full time jobs do more than participate on this site?

When the site admins were working full time jobs, even when rusty's job included working on scoop, the site suffered more as it became busier. Furthermore, rusty's life suffered more as it became busier. Each new scoop bug that we'd viciously hammer would drag him away from spending time with his woman, and his friends, and generally away from the computer.

I'm not saying we owe rusty a living, however the bottom line is that if you don't like it, tough. The site is rusty's and you're free to compete with a new site and find out the harsh realities of running a public discussion site in the New New Economy.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]

I think (none / 0) (#268)
by trane on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 10:07:23 PM EST

the government should pay for all this.

[ Parent ]
Not on my dime (none / 0) (#282)
by Miniluv on Mon Apr 07, 2003 at 12:52:54 AM EST

I refuse to pay for freeloaders who can't even capitalize their sentences properly.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]
I did capitalize! (none / 0) (#283)
by trane on Mon Apr 07, 2003 at 09:14:44 AM EST

The subject line was the beginning of the sentence.

You, sir, do not realize the benefits you yourself would realize from the funding of "freeloaders", as you put it. Imagine a society with little or no crime, where stress levels are far reduced, where people are more free to enjoy their lives and don't have to hustle and lie and cheat and steal to get by. Imagine, if you will, the contributions to society that happier individuals will produce. Imagine the benefits of a society where lying is not encouraged, but instead the promotion of truth leads to quicker scientific and technological advances that you yourself may enjoy during your lifetime. Such are the benefits of funding the "freeloaders"!

Or we can continue in a society where most of us are continually beaten down and forced to lie, steal, cheat, hustle, whatever to get any sort of pleasure out of life.

[ Parent ]

Perhaps (none / 0) (#284)
by Miniluv on Mon Apr 07, 2003 at 12:37:53 PM EST

Ugh, I hate the concept of subject and comment running together.

As for the rest of your diatribe. Fuck that. I don't lie, cheat, steal or hustle and I enjoy life to the fullest. It just so happens my pleasures are legal, and I'm unashamed of who I am. If you can't say the same then perhaps you ought to re-evaluate who you are.

Sure, there's laws I'd change that'd make more fun things legal, however it doesn't require the funding of freeloaders or other non-productive types.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]

I still say (none / 0) (#288)
by trane on Tue Apr 08, 2003 at 04:46:49 AM EST

I still say that you would benefit. If I could prove that to you somehow (perhaps using a simulation?), would you then agree that funding freeloaders is okay? I mean, if I could prove to your satisfaction that you would rather live in a world that funded freeloaders because you, personally, would be better off (however you define that). If I could do that, would you agree with me, or is this an emotional thing that no matter how much benefit you might accrue you still wouldn't agree that funding freeloaders is okay because there's some sort of emotional block that prevents you from agreeing that it could ever be a good thing?

Just curious.

[ Parent ]

Hard to say (none / 0) (#290)
by Miniluv on Tue Apr 08, 2003 at 04:50:42 PM EST

First off, my gut reaction is that you cannot prove to me that I'd be better off. That said, I'd have to re-evaluate given that information. Until then it'd be tough to figure which way I'd fall on the issue.

Understand that the basis of my bias is my knowledge of myself, which is that in a society in which "freeloaders" are funded, I'd stop being productive, or more accurately would become productive in a fashion that provided me with maximum pleasure, and would disregard any need for productivity for societys sake. The reason society benefits from me now is that my need to make a living is only fundable through providing goods or services society wants.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]

Hypothesis (none / 0) (#291)
by trane on Wed Apr 09, 2003 at 03:45:00 PM EST

The hypothesis is that if everyone were provided a minimum standard of living, each being productive in a way that provided them with maximum pleasure, there would be enough people to keep society advancing, and even advancing faster than now.

So you would do whatever provides you pleasure instead of having to do something that doesn't give you the maximum pleasure possible. The argument is that you would be more productive at that which you want to spend time doing, and someone else would get maximum pleasure out of doing what you're doing now.

If there aren't any people that want to do the shit jobs, well, no human should have to do those jobs, and hopefully there would be enough people who would get maximum pleasure out of figuring out how to automate those jobs.

These are hypotheses, I have no real proof other than a hunch.

[ Parent ]

I figured (none / 0) (#292)
by Miniluv on Wed Apr 09, 2003 at 03:51:18 PM EST

I had a feeling it was something like that. It sure sounds good doesn't it?

Sadly we're a long way away from that, and you have to realize that what I get maximum pleasure from is totally non-productive. I can't see your system working to support me smoking pot and fucking my wife all day long.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]

Really? (none / 0) (#294)
by trane on Fri Apr 11, 2003 at 03:32:50 PM EST

You would really be happy doing nothing else other than smoking pot and fucking? My guess is you have some hobby or something you like to spend time on when smoking pot and/or not screwing...listening to music, writing, coding maybe, whatever. The theory is that, if you were given the resources, you would have the opportunity to be more productive or produce higher quality stuff when you're doing what you want to do in your free time than when you are working for someone else and having to do things their way. The theory further holds that there would be enough people for whom this holds true, and in enough different areas, that progress would continue (at a faster pace even than presently).

One piece of evidence I can cite in support of my theory is the open source movement...

[ Parent ]

The open source movement (5.00 / 1) (#295)
by Miniluv on Fri Apr 11, 2003 at 04:28:20 PM EST

You have to be really, really careful citing OSS and the "movement" encompassing it. Linus, for example, wrote a minimally working kernel that plugged into a set of tools that became an operating system. He did it initially "Just for Fun" and because he was interested in it. However for a long time now he's been paid to continue work on it by Transmeta.

Larry Wall wrote perl out of necessity, and has since been lucky enough for various people to continue to fund its developement.

Just about every sucessful OSS project you can find had people being paid to do stuff that their employers rather graciously allowed them to do open source, rather than just somebody doing it out of a random desire to write code.

By contrast, sites like Freshmeat are littered with the half-finished, barely functional results of peoples desire to just "write code".

I would say progress happens in a combination of those states, with some of the best stuff coming out of shops where professionals write the code they are told to to fullfil a market niche identified by sales and marketing guys who sell what they're told to.

Genuine innovation tends to come out of these directionless states, however genuine innovation only does a certain amount of good.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]

Sure but (none / 0) (#297)
by trane on Sat Apr 12, 2003 at 08:55:14 PM EST

If Linus's living expenses were all taken care of so that he didn't have to work for anyone else, my guess is he'd continue working on Lunix.

Are you saying that people who are paid to work on open source projects wouldn't work on them, or not as hard, if they weren't being paid by some employer? I disagree.

Maybe some would not work as hard, but my theory is that others would work harder, and you would come up with a net gain in productivity (if everyone were free to do what they wanted without having to think about "making a living").

[ Parent ]

Maybe (none / 0) (#298)
by Miniluv on Sat Apr 12, 2003 at 11:53:08 PM EST

Having just reread part of Linus's book, I'll use his own arguments against you here. He says the three main motivating factors in life are survival, social relationships, and fun in that order.

If you take care of survival automagically, then the primary motivating factor to do work is negated.
Unless you begin providing social benefits to being productive then number two remains a mostly non-issue.
This brings us to coding "for fun". I think my last comment addressed pretty well the sucessful nature of projects undertaken "for fun". The fun parts get coded fast, and the hard parts, the unfun parts, the boring bugs, never get done or fixed. You get half-working piles of shit. This is what we have today and it is getting us nowhere. There's a reason that no open source package is the market leader outside of the server space. Nobody but a sysadmin is willing to tolerate the lack of ease of use that quality open source projects provide.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]

However (none / 0) (#302)
by trane on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 07:34:03 AM EST

Consider the case of Bill Gates. Although his survival (and social relationships and fun) is assured by his great wealth, he continues to work. Why?

If you guarantee survival, I think enough people would still be motivated to work on things that interest them and reward them in ways independent of financial gain. (And the people that wouldn't work, maybe that is a good thing, at least they won't get in the way and slow things down...)

As for the point about lack of ease of use, this may be due to a preference on the part of the current authors of open source software. I for example prefer vi(m), and use it to program. If the authors of more popular editors were guaranteed survival, I think enough of them would continue to work on graphical, easy-to-use editors. I don't think that those editors are purely the result of management and sales.

I just think that the best work is often done by people who are not very concerned with the financial impact of their work. Granted, these are often geniuses. However, why shouldn't what works best for geniuses also work well for the rest of us?

[ Parent ]

Such as... (none / 0) (#303)
by Miniluv on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 09:51:23 AM EST

Schizophrenia, suicide, depression, and drug abuse?

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]
Louis Armstrong (none / 0) (#304)
by trane on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 03:19:16 PM EST

Pops didn't suffer from any of those, well except for smoking pot...

[ Parent ]
How about no? (4.36 / 11) (#22)
by Legato Bluesummers on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:26:10 AM EST

The unintrusive text based ads on the top left are fine and dandy. This ain't.
--And many people have ended up looking very stupid, or dead, or both.
Looks good... (4.00 / 2) (#24)
by ramses0 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:27:03 AM EST

...my biggest concern is that it looks like the advertisement should be associated with that particular story (yes, I do ignore the big ADVERTISEMENT at the top and bottom ;^) ... Good layout, not too intrusive, no punching monkeys.  It passes my tests.

It would be nice if you could specify "I want these ads to run in <section> stories", which would be tons more valuable to advertisers.  Charge a premium for targetted placement (this is based on my newfound business sense: if you have a chance to make more money- make it, bank it, and stay in business longer).  If a particular section is not popular with advertisers you could consider  canning that section.  Or steal patented ideas (I'm sure) from was it the WSJ?  Where if a user has clicked on 10 tech stories, and one culture story, don't be afraid to serve them a tech ad on a culture page.  Mmmmm... User Profiling!  :^)

Now that I know perl, be very afraid because I might just start submitting patches.  ;^) ... would there be any way to get some sort of dump of an active scoop database in order to try SQL optimizations?  (perhaps scoop.k5.org if it's still up?)

Good job!  Glad to hear that K5 is starting to be successful!

[ rate all comments , for great ju

Patchesssss my preciousssss? (none / 0) (#29)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:31:42 AM EST

I don't know what's up with scoop.k5. It has been a little spotty this week. I suppose you'd need some data to do any useful SQL optimizing. It might actually be easiest to just scrape a pile of text from somewhere and write a little script to fill up a big chunk of database. I don't know if anyone with a running site would feel comfortable giving out sample database dumps.

I doubt there'll be any user tracking or profiling, but buying specific sections makes sense. I consider it on the todo list. Which probably means it'll never get done, but hey. You never know.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

scoop.k5 (none / 0) (#38)
by coryking on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:38:30 AM EST

We had a little DNS issue this week, and scoop.k5 managed to get unplugged and reboot into the good old "please boot into single user mode" to which I had no root password :-)

I actually need to talk with you, or whoever does kuro5hin.org's dns as we are finally moving scoop into a real datacenter in the westin building, which is essentially the heart of god in the pacific northwest. The bad part is the IP gets changed, so scoop.kuro5hin.org's entry needs to get changed. I'll get ahold of hurstdog sometime tommorow about this.

[ Parent ]

Email me (none / 0) (#47)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:44:40 AM EST

I can get the IP changed pretty quickly.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Cool (none / 0) (#50)
by coryking on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:48:52 AM EST

My buddy and I are planning on doing this on sunday. What I will probably do is put some kind of redirect on the IP like "hey, we are over here" for the lag time between the move and the DNS.

[ Parent ]
Drop the TTL now (none / 0) (#174)
by Miniluv on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:26:46 AM EST

If you drop it now, before the change, then the change'll propogate a hell of a lot faster.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]
I must have missed that diary... (4.33 / 3) (#30)
by leviramsey on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:31:45 AM EST

I would have suggested that a while ago...

It renders fine in Opera 7.1 TP3 on Linux (different rendering engine than in 6.x, IIRC).

Couple of improvements to the ad system in general I've thought of:

  • targeting: charging double to ensure that an ad only gets run on the front page/Everything and a specific index page (for index-page ads) or stories in a particular section.
  • shared comments for ads: now that there are story ads, buyers should be more likely to buy multiple ads. However, some buyers may want to have one of more ads (for the same product/service) point to the same comments. AFAIK, this has not been implemented.

NTS: Read all comments before posting (nt) (3.00 / 1) (#34)
by leviramsey on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:36:21 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Rusty, a very good idea: (4.75 / 12) (#31)
by coryking on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:32:00 AM EST

You need to sub-divide your ad page. Make the "all ads" like a classifieds section. You need "web hosting", "music software", "Dogs", "Help wanted", etc. By letting advertisers choose what category/section they fall, it would clean up the "all ads" page which i bet most advertisers clickthrough comes from. When a person is interested in "Dogs", they'd click on the dog section and get nothing but ads for dogs.

This would greatly enhance the usability of all the ads, increase sales for the advertisers, and make you more money as people would be more willing to give up their hard earned cash to get listed. It shouldn't be more then two extra tables (categories, and a table to link ads to the categories - assuming an ad can be in more then one category). If an ad can only be in one category, it would be trivial to implement.

In short, if you made k5's ad section more like a classified section that happened to show the listings on most pages, you'd be better off. Hell, I'd probably spend way more then I do now on advertising here, as I know people could find my ad easier.

Don't like, and suggestion (4.44 / 9) (#32)
by Sloppy on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:33:48 AM EST

This makes me want to go to my user-prefs page and change Show Ads from Yes to No.

But if I do that, then you won't get any ad revenue off any of my page loads at all.

No matter whether I pick "Yes" or "No" to my Show Ads setting, it seems like the result will be extreme in one way or another. And of course, some people won't share my opinion about an ad on every page being annoying. Perhaps there should be something in between Yes and No...
"RSA, 2048, seeks sexy young entropic lover, for several clock cycles of prime passion..."

Agree (5.00 / 2) (#46)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:44:33 AM EST

Right now, even though I'm a subscriber I leave the ads on; there's some things that I've bought that I wouldn't have otherwise without coming across it here. However, I find this style of ad to be somewhat distracting. I'll leave it on for now to see how it grows on me or not, but it would be a nice option to say leave the ads turned on for the index page, but off for stories. I'd hate to turn ads off everywhere, partly because there's some cool stuff advertised here from time to time, and partly because its a way to continue to support the site.

Also, I agree that ads for the diaries would be weird.

[ Parent ]
Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#49)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:48:09 AM EST

I should split the prefs into "ads on index pages" and "ads on stories". Expect that soon.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
damn. (4.66 / 6) (#35)
by pb on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:36:42 AM EST

Remind me to read your diary more.

Or, alternatively, remind me to get off my ass and start a discussion site.

"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall

reminder (5.00 / 1) (#255)
by wiredog on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 08:24:18 AM EST

Get off your ass and start a discussion site.


Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

[ Parent ]

Thanks! [nt] (none / 0) (#264)
by pb on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 04:52:10 PM EST

"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall
[ Parent ]
Well, what can I say. (4.60 / 5) (#37)
by valeko on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:37:59 AM EST

I personally don't have a problem with them. They look totally out of place right now because one is not used to them, but I think that will change fairly easily.

I think in time they will morph into another feature of the site you don't even notice. It's kind of like scrolling through an MSNBC or Washington Post article or whatever, and seeing all those vertical ads in the middle of the page that you don't even notice. I think with time K5 ads will get that way for me, although you shouldn't tell your advertisers that of course.

(Offtopic note: Then again, I don't see half the ads out there on the Interweb in general because I've got a 24kB /etc/hosts file that maps a whole slew of advertiser/image server addresses to (such as, for example, the infamous *.doubleclick.net). I use pdnsd for my caching nameserver, which of course uses /etc/hosts, and thus such bogus mappings are propogated to the machines on the LAN here. Doing all this is probably old news, but I still think it's pretty cool.)

"Hey, what's sanity got going for it anyways?" -- infinitera, on matters of the heart

Confusion (4.00 / 8) (#39)
by J'raxis on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:38:37 AM EST

It’s already apparently causing confusion; someone thinking the ad was part of their story. It does look like it’s part of the story, and that will probably make some people think twice about posting — I wouldn’t submit a story if I knew that thereߣd be some random content about which I have no idea inserted into the middle of it.

The ads in the side bar are fine. Putting ads in the story like this is reminiscent of bannerfarm news sites that almost seem to intentionally work ads into the flow of text to get people to read them, thinking they’re part of the text.

— The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]

ADVERTISEMENT (none / 0) (#44)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:43:37 AM EST

There is a big all-caps "ADVERTISEMENT" on top and on the bottom. And it's totally visually different from the text. And it has an orange border, which color only appears around ads anywhere on the whole site. And a different background color. I can't think of any other way to make it more clear that it is not part of the story.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
how about by (5.00 / 2) (#53)
by pb on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:51:38 AM EST

keeping it out of the box that the story text is in?
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall
[ Parent ]
Please surround the all caps ADVERTISEMENT... (4.00 / 2) (#80)
by gnovos on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:59:34 AM EST

... with BLINK tags!

A Haiku: "fuck you fuck you fuck/you fuck you fuck you fuck you/fuck you fuck you snow" - JChen
[ Parent ]
Honest Attempt vs. Trickery (5.00 / 1) (#198)
by J'raxis on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:59:23 PM EST

pb said it already, but I’ll reiterate: If you don’t want it to look like part of the story, don’t put it in the story and wrap the story around it.

I shouldn’t say people are going to actually think the ad is part of the story after a few moments. But its placement within the story is going to trick people into looking at it. My reaction afterward is not, Oh, this looks interesting, let’s click on it, my reaction is more like, That’s a dirty trick and isn’t going to encourage me to click on it, in fact, quite the opposite. I intentionally stop to look at the sidebar ads. These I would intentionally avoid.

I never follow ads that employ any kind of attention-getting manipulation tricks such as this (and other things like animated banners, bright text, moving text, flashing text, sound, etc.). That kind of crap gets accepted on sites like Fark and mainstream media because the average person is so used to it from TV and radio, but it pisses me off, and I’d bet I’m not alone.

— The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]
[ Parent ]

Showing me my own ads (3.33 / 3) (#42)
by rf0 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:43:21 AM EST

Does implementing this fix the bug where I sometime see my own ads? Also it would be nice to see some sort of targeting or story sponership, actually thats a not a bad idea.

If you are going to go through with this how about adding a function to the editing queue where the author (if they want) can choose an add to run along side their story?


a2b2.com - Stable, Friendly Decent Hosting

Your own ads (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:47:24 AM EST

You may sometimes see your own ads, but that will not count against your impressions, and never has. Basically, it was easier to not count that view than it was to arrange it so your ad never comes up for you. It amounts to the same thing.

Placing particular ads on particular stories would be tricky, and kind of makes me uncomfortable in a "separating editorial and advertising" way. I would rather just let advertisers specify a section or sections, and leave it at that.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Do what you want (1.61 / 13) (#54)
by psychologist on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:53:49 AM EST

I certainly am not buying any ads, so long as you support the murder of my brothers in Iraq.

Ahem (4.33 / 3) (#164)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:57:52 AM EST

Rather than commenting on K5 ads, shouldn't you be earning your money, saving your "Iraqi brothers" from the rather severe beatdown they've been getting lately?

If I were Saddam, I'd be asking you for my money back, slacker.

[ Parent ]
Okay in theory... (3.33 / 3) (#57)
by Skwirl on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:01:08 AM EST

I think the ads are a little less intrusive when they're inlined into a sidebar. Sure, this position adds visibility, but it distracts from reading. My eyes want to drift towards the heavier orange border and blue text. If you're heartset on this postion, it might be better if it were wider.

"Nothing in the world is more distasteful to a man than to take the path that leads to himself." -- Herman Hesse
All i have to say: (4.30 / 10) (#58)
by mcc on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:01:10 AM EST

While I have no problem with the story-page ads in theory, in practice it's ugly and distracting. I would like to make a simple suggestion.

Would you consider moving the ad from the left side of the page to the right? Doing so would restore the symmetry (or something of that sort) of the page, which currently the ad totally destroys. It would also keep the ad from being actively distracting from the text-- which, well, i will admit that the point is to get you to look at it, but if you put it in a place that will incite people to spend most of their time actively trying not to look at the ad so that they can keep their focus on the text, that maybe isn't the best thing for you either.

If you had the ad floating on the right side, people would still look at it whether they wanted to or not; it just wouldn't be obnoxious. This would also have the advantage that if you're someone like me who finds themselves very very often scrolling to the top and clicking on either "View Queue" or "Your Comments", you would be pretty much unable to do that without registering what the ad said..

Of course, if your purpose is specifically to annoy people and thus cause them to subscribe, then the left side makes sense, but overall putting it on the right would just make for a much more pleasant viewing experience, and i don't think it would lessen the ad's impact.

Anyone agree or disagree with me? Thanks.

Aside from that, the absurd meta-wankery of k5er-quoting sigs probably takes the cake. Especially when the quote itself is about k5. -- tsubame

Yes, for a very simple reason (5.00 / 1) (#86)
by roiem on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:28:39 AM EST

The story text gets aligned to the left if the ad is at the right, which means I can read each line from the same horizontal position. With the ad on the left, some lines start at a distance from the left margin. It matters less (I think) that lines end at the same place.
90% of all projects out there are basically glorified interfaces to relational databases.
Parent ]
Agreed (none / 0) (#99)
by Protagonist on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:27:09 AM EST

I was about to post a comment stating the same thing, but you saved me the trouble, thanks :)

Hahah! Your ferris-wheel attack is as pathetic and ineffective as your system of government!
[ Parent ]
Not bad, but... (5.00 / 6) (#60)
by aechols on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:02:47 AM EST

What if you put it at the top of the column on the right?  That would make it a bit more squareish though, if that matters.  In any case it beats a big annoying flash ad.

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
flow (4.50 / 2) (#124)
by spottedkangaroo on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 07:28:12 AM EST

anywhere on the right is way more a lot better than right there in the extra copy where your eyes go next. I can definitely see the advantage for advertisers...

I just don't want to have to turn off the ads, I kidna like them.

[ Parent ]

Not liking it . . . (3.33 / 3) (#61)
by ubernostrum on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:03:03 AM EST

The ad really breaks up the story in a distracting way; the part of the page that's story should be story and nothing else. What other options exist for ad placement?

On the upside, though, this presents an interesting opportunity; you could add a patch to Scoop that selectively puts ads in stories. So, for example, a localroger story would be presented ad-free, but when turmeric or A Proud American puts something in the queue, it gets bogged down with ads; that way people who produce quality content can support k5 that way, and people who troll can support k5 in other ways . . .

You cooin' with my bird?

Alternatively (none / 0) (#66)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:24:06 AM EST

The lower your mojo, the larger and more obtrusive the ad. :)

[ Parent ]
Noisy (3.66 / 3) (#62)
by obsidian head on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:07:04 AM EST

It looks noisy, with the orange as well as text outside the borders (top & bottom).  Does it need that orange, and do you need text outside the borders?

Well, if people can get used to this, they can get used to anything.  Best to start ambitious.  But stories are not the best place to be gratuitously distracting.

Any better? (none / 0) (#64)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:15:24 AM EST

I like it better with the box around the whole thing. But it feels a little off somehow to me now.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Looks good (none / 0) (#65)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:22:03 AM EST

How about making everything grey inside the box, rather than the white headers and footers?

[ Parent ]
Grey (none / 0) (#67)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:26:55 AM EST

I wanted to kind of separate what was actual ad and what was incidental stuff.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Blue background, white text? (5.00 / 1) (#68)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:30:27 AM EST

I'm not exactly sure why, just seems like the white headers/footers are... strange to me. I guess I think it would look better if the ad block was 'solid', so to speak.

[ Parent ]
Just to clarify (none / 0) (#69)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:32:39 AM EST

I meant the header/footer would be white on blue, the ad text the black on grey; didn't want you to think I meant the whole thing as white on blue; that would be funky.

[ Parent ]
Heh (none / 0) (#70)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:36:29 AM EST

Right, I got it. I'm worried that a block of dark blue there would basically bring back the "heavy" feeling that it had before from the orange. I like how the white and gray sort of blends with the lighter colors of the rest of the text.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Yeah (none / 0) (#71)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:40:20 AM EST

After staring at it for a few minutes, I think you're right; and having the box bound the whole ad is better than free-floating text above and below it.

[ Parent ]
If you don't like it (2.83 / 6) (#72)
by starsky on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:44:53 AM EST

subscribe, or quit whining.

other solution (5.00 / 4) (#73)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:48:50 AM EST

If I don't like ads in my stories, I might decide not to submit them.

Alienating the people who provide the content is not a particularly good way to keep up the quality.

[ Parent ]

Keep up the quality? (2.33 / 3) (#175)
by Miniluv on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:38:44 AM EST

Oh darn, we'll miss out on the next three stories in a 2 year period from you. That sounds like a huge loss, really it does.

You have to remember, rusty is providing a more valuable service to his authors than they are to him. It seems illogical, but its true. Without K5 most of the moronic crap thats been posted here would never have been read. Sure, you can post whatever to livejournal, your personal webpage, blogspot, or some other overcrowded piece of shit that no one reads. Or you can post to a "captive" audience of almost 60K users at K5 and get feedback, discussion, and a sense of accomplishment. You might even get that wickedly cool email of "Hey, read your story and loved it. Thanks a lot for writing it." that makes the whole process worth while.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]

another suggestion (3.75 / 4) (#74)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:51:29 AM EST

If the ads are going to stay, could it be an option for subscribers to turn off in-story embedded ads for stories they submit? That is, turn them off for all users. I'm not sure why, but I don't personally mind ads in other peoples' stories all that much (though I don't like them, as they interrupt the flow of the article and my train of thought), but I would object much more strongly to the embedded ads in my own stories, and would like the ability to turn that off.

some additional comments on why (4.00 / 1) (#76)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:56:05 AM EST

I semi-often send links to stories I wrote here to people I know IRL, who don't have kuro5hin accounts at all, let alone subscription ones. I don't like the way the ads make the stories look, so I'd rather not subject people I link the stories to to them. Failing that, I might mirror any stories I post on personal webspace and link to those instead, if k5's presentation of them stays like it is.

[ Parent ]
That bad? (none / 0) (#81)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:05:33 AM EST

Personally, with this latest change I don't think that they're that intrusive. In any case, he's said he'll make the change so that subscribers can selectively turn off ads in stories but keep them in the index, if you want.

[ Parent ]
yeah, I got that (none / 0) (#87)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:28:57 AM EST

I'm more worried about other people seeing ads in my stories, not seeing ads myself. I'm not aware of turning that off having been proposed.

[ Parent ]
Good point (none / 0) (#79)
by Pholostan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:59:00 AM EST

I agree with you. But maybe it is impractical. Hmm.

- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
[ Parent ]
My Idea... (3.00 / 1) (#94)
by woem on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:04:41 AM EST

Remove them from the print page. That way, to send your friends the story, direct them to the print page. I will personally go to the measure of mirroring the page and extracting the ad before I convert an article to dead-tree format (I have a binder of various 'Net collected articles), but it'd be nice if it just wasn't there, especially if it's being printed.

To prevent abuse, you could remove the printer icon from the stories on the front-page, and limit them to the main discussion page. That'd ensure the greatest number of ad-reads.

I don't mind the ads. As one poster said, it adds a certain level of legitimacy to K5. Makes me think: "Yeah, this site's telling the truth, because it's important enough to have ads." My mind just ignores them, but it adds that special touch.
i either +1fp or -1. no exceptions. i ♥ turmeric.
the only class that should be discriminated against is the stupid.

[ Parent ]

I disagree on legitimacy (4.33 / 3) (#100)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:28:24 AM EST

To my mind, it detracts from legitimacy, making it seem like a commercial site instead of a community discussion site. Sort of the like getting misspelled lyrics from one of those ubiquitous lyrics sites with 12 ads on every page vs. getting accurately transcribed lyrics from an ad-free fan site.

[ Parent ]
Well (4.00 / 3) (#75)
by Pholostan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:55:48 AM EST

My first reaction were not so positive. But reading your peice on it and thinking a bit, I concluded that they are not so bad. So if you think that they are needed, feel free to include them.
- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside
It needs to be... (3.85 / 7) (#77)
by faustus on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:57:42 AM EST

...flashing. Its times like this when I really miss the old <blink> tag.

Authors should get a cut (4.16 / 6) (#78)
by imrdkl on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:57:44 AM EST

I'll settle for a ride on your boat once in awhile.

Boat rides (4.66 / 3) (#88)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:29:50 AM EST

I'll have to lash you to the deck, and it might get a little damp. And tippy.

OTOH, a cut for authors is not a bad idea, seriously. It's something I've wanted to do for a while. And this way, if you write a really good story, you make more money.

First, let's see if anyone buys these. Meanwhile I will think about how to fairly distribute income. At $0.50 per thousand we're not talking about a whole lot of money anyway, but if you were credited $0.25 per thousand views of your stories, I guess it would add up to a few bucks over time, huh? Maybe you could just plug in a paypal account (i.e. email address) you want to send your cash to and it tracks your views and sends you a lump at the end of the month if it's over like $5.00.

I think that's fair. If this all goes smashingly well, I expect the top end of conceivable income from these ads to be like $2 grand a month. I would be chuffed to have half of that going to K5 authors.

Anyone reading the thread, does this idea make you feel any differently about the ads? :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Sounds reasonable (4.50 / 2) (#89)
by imrdkl on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:42:46 AM EST

I'd suggest one option, that authors be allowed to contribute their portion to the CMF. I know it's not on the front burner right now, but I still think it's got potential, with some paid help and other facilities of "real" media foundations.

Are you keeping separate accounts for the CMF?

[ Parent ]

A very good start (5.00 / 2) (#92)
by Eloquence on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:49:26 AM EST

We definitely need to think about ways of funding authors, and this is an excellent start. It will probably be largely symbolic, but for some of the most active posters it might actually provide some compensation. Hopefully, when/if the CMF is set up, and you have a financial surplus, we can also talk about how this can be used to fund stories that take a lot of effort to write (research, interviews etc.).
Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
spread the word!
[ Parent ]
Welcome to adequacy.org (3.66 / 3) (#93)
by komet on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:52:03 AM EST

If authors have a financial incentive to get as many views as possible, you will have single-handedly legitimized trolling as a day job, and people will write about their son Johnny being a hacker not just for troll value, but also for monetary compensation. I don't think that's a good idea at all.

[ Parent ]

It's not that bad (none / 0) (#107)
by fishpi on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:42:38 AM EST

The sort of money we're talking about here isn't going to be worth anyone's while trolling for. I'd look upon it as a small bonus if I was going to write the story anyway.

I think the most important point is that it will still be governed by the K5 voting and editorial process. If an article isn't good enough to be voted up, then it won't make any money.

[ Parent ]

haha! (4.50 / 2) (#95)
by pb on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:11:22 AM EST

That would be amusing if I could earn enough money from K5 ads to subscribe to turn off K5 ads...

...then again, I might want to turn them back on again and click a few, to support the community so we can earn money, to subscribe, to turn off ads...

err. This is getting confusing.
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall
[ Parent ]

Sounds like a good idea (5.00 / 1) (#131)
by DesiredUsername on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:34:56 AM EST

At the very least it offsets the reluctance someone might have to post a exquisitely crafted story only to have it chopped up by ads.

If you do this, it'd be a good idea to allow diarists to turn on ads in their diaries.

Play 囲碁
[ Parent ]

Pay against subscriptions. (4.75 / 4) (#149)
by gauntlet on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:05:02 AM EST

As an advertiser, I wouldn't want to think that there were people out there that had a monetary incentive, however small, to artificially increase the number of views of pages with my ad.

The amounts are small, but I still don't like the idea of K5 paying out cash. It would involve legal problems, I'll bet.

That said, if sufficient safeguards could be put in place against false hits, I think it would be a great idea to put the money against the author's subscription.

Into Canadian Politics?
[ Parent ]

Hmm... (none / 0) (#177)
by Miniluv on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:44:12 AM EST

So...if I advertise for, say, a left wing activist group to try and drum up membership, I could end up supporting the author of a Neo-Nazi screed decrying the Zionists? That'd suck.

"Too much wasabi and you'll be crying like you did at the last ten minutes of The Terminator" - Alton Brown
[ Parent ]
Or the other way around (none / 0) (#190)
by X3nocide on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:52:26 PM EST

You could be profiting from an offshore terrorist cell!

[ Parent ]
neat idea (none / 0) (#237)
by adiffer on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:13:40 PM EST

One thing though.  If you do offer section targeted advertising, it seems to me like you should be able to charge a bit more.  Think about it from my perspective a bit.  If I'm running a science oriented ad and it shows in science stories, haven't I got a better chance at a good click through rate?  Shouldn't I pay for that chance?

Targetted advertising may be done in smaller absolute numbers of impressions, but I think it is more valuable to the advertiser.

I like the payback idea.  Those who help me bring eyeballs to an ad would benefit when I pay for them.  I might be motivated to tighten up my voting policy and promote it to ensure I get the audience I want.  8)
--BE The Alien!
[ Parent ]

Or... (4.00 / 1) (#260)
by BOredAtWork on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 11:59:43 AM EST

Instead of giving out cash (and dealing with the legal snafus that are sure to follow), why not offer a free membership month for every X page views an author's article generates?

Another thought: Why not allow authors the opportunity to purchase the ad space in their articles for the first X views? That way, when tumeric posts another fascinating insight into the Iraq war, he can be sure the ad that shows up is for Who Would Jesus Bomb shirts, rather than something irrelevant, like web hosting. Or, he could opt to just buy the space, and NOT put an ad there at all... either way, you get cash, and the author gets more control over "their" page. This would also decrease the number of default ads you'll be showing to make sure the new ads last for at least a week.

If the author can purchase their own article's ad space, since the article author bought the ad space, the ad author gets lots of views for free, which will make them happy. It will also encourage people to buy really funny/insightful/useful ads, and cause the best ads to be seen more than the bad ones. If an ad author sees that half of the article authors are using their ad, they'll know that it's doing well, and be damn sure to keep ponying up cash to keep that ad in the queue for authors to pick from ;-).

[ Parent ]

Thoughts and feature ideas. (4.50 / 6) (#83)
by Anoymous 22666 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:20:04 AM EST

Well... I can't say I like the advertising, but I do think that if you want to place ads on story pages, you've probably done the best possible. I think the size that you have it is reasonable, and the positioning is the best you're gonna do without changing the entire site layout. Nice work.

Having said that... I actually kinda enjoy seeing some of the ads on the index pages, but I think I will find them distracting in the stories. (You'll probably hear that a lot.) Feature request: Allow subscribers the ability to turn off different types of ads independently. (Eg: allow index page ads, but turn off story ads.)

About putting them on diary pages: I agree, it seems wrong to have ads there. Possible feature: If you're a subscriber, you can choose to disable ads in your diary (for all readers). If you're not, you get ads. (Of course, if a reader is a subscriber, they can disable those ads too.)

I haven't read all other comments, so I hope I am not repeating: It looks fine in Camino 0.7 and Safari beta 60.

I just farted... And I blame the fiction section. - Psycho Les

I agree (3.00 / 1) (#97)
by vrt3 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:18:31 AM EST

Having said that... I actually kinda enjoy seeing some of the ads on the index pages, but I think I will find them distracting in the stories. (You'll probably hear that a lot.) Feature request: Allow subscribers the ability to turn off different types of ads independently. (Eg: allow index page ads, but turn off story ads.)

That's exactly what I was thinking.

When a man wants to murder a tiger, it's called sport; when the tiger wants to murder him it's called ferocity. -- George Bernard Shaw
[ Parent ]

I hate it (3.85 / 7) (#84)
by llamasex on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:21:51 AM EST

This is worse than normal ads, because I can block those out with promomitron. It's placement is  really annoying, and will most likely cause me to not read the main stories as much.

Will they be in the Submission que, I could just read them their, or maybe just blow through more diaries when I am looking to blow some time, or maybe run to someother site. On the plus side, I am glad your ad sales are going well.

Howard Dean punched me in the face

so buy subscription, it's cheap [nt] (3.25 / 4) (#91)
by boxed on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:49:14 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Not as cheap as I am (5.00 / 1) (#98)
by llamasex on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:22:01 AM EST


actually I am a bummy college kid.

Howard Dean punched me in the face
[ Parent ]

Menus (4.75 / 20) (#90)
by Stephen Turner on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:48:04 AM EST

I'd like to relate an experience I had recently with a menu in a restaurant.

My wife kept mentioning meals that I hadn't noticed. It turned out that they were all the specials. I wondered why I hadn't noticed them, until I realised that they were set apart from the main text, in boxes with a different coloured background and a coloured border. I'd just assumed they were banner ads and subconsciously filtered them out.

Put the advert a little lower (4.16 / 6) (#96)
by sams on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:11:31 AM EST

Maybe have the ad in the second paragraph, rather than the first?

That way, the first thing you read is still the content.

suggestion: print pages (5.00 / 12) (#101)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:29:25 AM EST

Take the ads out of the print pages. It makes the print feature pretty useless when there's an add messing up the text.

I agree (5.00 / 3) (#102)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:14:11 AM EST

Not that it makes the print feature useless (it is text), but they don't belong there. Done.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
well (5.00 / 2) (#110)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:47:10 AM EST

Useless was a bit strong. I meant more that it defeats the purpose of the print page, which is presumably to give you just the story minus the other stuff that's usually on the page.

[ Parent ]
Can it be moved (4.55 / 9) (#104)
by Siddhi on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:24:20 AM EST

From embedded in the story to under voting record in the right, or somewhere on the right sidebar ? Usually there will be a bit of space free there anyway.

Otherwise, how about horizontal, after the story ends, between the story and the drop down boxes ?

As it stands right now, its ok, but it messes up the formatting and that makes the story look ugly.

I'm running at 800x600 and for me the right sidebar + ad has the same width at the text. Its all squashed up in the middle. I suppose it will be much much worse at 640x480.

It is also rather distracting. I love the ad position on the index page. Its easily seen, yet totally unobtrusive. Rather like the google ads which are placed far away from the search listing, but are still visible. The current placing is a bit obtrusive. I wont say I'm against the current position, I'm more on the neutral side.

Oh BTW, I'm running IE6 and it renders fine.

Ouch. (4.72 / 11) (#105)
by i on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:32:19 AM EST

Notice how the ad interrupts the bulleted list flow in the sushi story. It hurts my eyes. Can something be done about it? Like moving the ad to the right, or something?

and we have a contradicton according to our assumptions and the factor theorem

Yes, ALIGN=RIGHT (5.00 / 1) (#129)
by Whizard on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:19:45 AM EST

I agree that moving them to the right side of the page would make them significantly less intrusive, and believe that it would be a truly good thing.

So Lawrence Lessig, John Perry Barlow, Rusty, and Prince are having dinner...
[ Parent ]
Huh? (2.00 / 2) (#106)
by mami on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:41:42 AM EST

I don't like it, but I don't see an ad either. So where is the ad?

never mind (none / 0) (#170)
by mami on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:19:31 AM EST

see 'em when I am not logged in, don't see it when I am logged in. May be it's blocked out automatically if you are a subscriber ...

I don't like them much. I would though support them, if dear Mr. Rusty would provide a downloadable archive of all my comments in context to the threads and articles.

Just to make sure that he understands, that I don't consider it right to claim he doesn't own our comments, but prevents us from collecting our own comments in an easy manner.

[ Parent ]

Looks fine (3.50 / 2) (#111)
by Filthy Socialist Hippy on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:55:55 AM EST

I've already started filtering them out.  It's amazing how fast we learn to ignore advertising.

If you want them to actually be read (and clicked through) then place a random tiny pr0n image in there.  Other than that, forget it.

leftist, you don't love America, you love what America with all its wealth and power can be if you turn it into a socialist state. - thelizman

Like these? (5.00 / 1) (#115)
by Cameleon on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:28:19 AM EST

You mean like these?

[ Parent ]
I demand pop up ads! [nt] (4.75 / 4) (#112)
by Stick on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:13:47 AM EST

Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
try horizontal (4.83 / 6) (#113)
by chu on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:16:50 AM EST

Also try full story-width horizontal ad above the fold where the <hr> is now. Lots of initial impact without messing up the layout and gets scrolled past quickly so isn't distracting while you're reading.

Yeah! (none / 0) (#213)
by ecopoesis on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:20:00 PM EST

And next we can rename the site www.msnbc.com!

"Yachting isn't just for the wealthy. :-)" - rusty
[ Parent ]

Authors first (4.80 / 10) (#116)
by rustball on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:38:53 AM EST

Authors should get first dibs on placing ads in their own stories. Perhaps a system where the ad would stay in place within the story for a small fee (50$?). The author would get a 50% discount on placing such ads as a recompense for writing a good story.

Motivated authors would naturally try to write the best story possible so as to get as many page views as possible, leading to higher traffic for their ad to exploit. This alone might fuel a boom in high quality articles.

Just a thought.

What the hell is going on? (4.50 / 6) (#117)
by veldmon on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:39:49 AM EST

I don't come to this site to be bombarded with advertisements. If this is the way it's going to be than I might buy a fucking subscription.

Embedded? (3.50 / 4) (#118)
by tetragon on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:43:13 AM EST

I'm reading this with elinks and I have to page down a couple of times just to get past the sample ad. Perhaps placing it off to the side would be better. Or even making it wider. Right now, it takes up 36 lines of 14 characters with nothing but whitespace to the right of it in the story column.

Ceci n'est pas une sig
I second that (none / 0) (#277)
by kidzatrisc on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 02:09:20 PM EST

I haven't looked at the ads with a graphical browser, but with links they look like shit and take up almost an entire page. With lynx 2.8.4rel.1 they look better and only take up 3 lines, although the rest of the site looks worse. Too slashdoty for me...

[ Parent ]
Pref coming soon (none / 0) (#278)
by rusty on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 02:20:07 PM EST

I'm going to add a preference to say where you want to put them. I.e. left/right/top/bottom. Having looked at it with links and lynx, I'd say bottom would be the best choice. Hopefully this helps.

And as for lynx... everything loooks like crap in lynx. It's the "looks like crap" browser. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Oh OH (2.33 / 3) (#119)
by billt on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:55:30 AM EST

oh for petes sake i['m so piised off right now i can't stand it/.

Calm down (none / 0) (#206)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:11:04 PM EST

Take a deep breath. Have a glass of water. It's going to be ok.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
yeah ok (none / 0) (#228)
by billt on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:43:34 PM EST


[ Parent ]
Congratulations (4.87 / 8) (#120)
by evilpenguin on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:58:57 AM EST

Looks like I finally got the motivation to buy a subscription (to turn off those god-awful ads).  Maybe it's just my short attention span (ooh...shiny!), but I absolutely cannot stand ads placed in the story text.  They interrupt the flow and are incredibly distracting.

Also: why serve ads on the "post comment" pages?  I think one would be least likely to click on an ad in this situation, simply because it would sidetrack you from your original intent.

If I were to get a subscription, would there be the ability to seperately turn off the story page ads and the index page ads?  I actually like the index page ad box as it's simple and unintrusive, and every once in a while leads to something interesting.  Would it be possible to have an option that just disables story ads?
# nohup cat /dev/dsp > /dev/hda & killall -9 getty

Alternative (none / 0) (#248)
by cpt kangarooski on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 04:02:09 AM EST

If you'd like to save some money, I have just finished a Proxomitron filter to get rid of ads in that format. It's not very difficult, and if you'd like, I can mail you the filter.

(I cannot stand ads either, but I am also a tightwad; I feel your pain.)

All my posts including this one are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
[ Parent ]

Good luck with Proxomitron (none / 0) (#251)
by rusty on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 04:14:01 AM EST

When it screws up your posting here, don't come complaining to me. That piece of crap. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Well (5.00 / 1) (#254)
by cpt kangarooski on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 06:43:06 AM EST

It all depends on how you use it. I tend to design most of my filters for specific sites, and rely on the ad list (basically like a hosts file) to keep out unwanted stuff that isn't at a site I frequent enough to make it worthwhile to write a filter.

Surprisingly, I have a lot more k5 filters than I do for that other place. But basically I'm aiming at the text ads and sponsor links. Both offend me, so I pluck 'em out. ;)

As I've mentioned before, my dream technology is something that would allow me to filter reality so that I don't have to put up with billboards or annoying supermarket displays either.

Certainly it has not screwed up my posting here to date, and I've been using it for at least a year and a half, likely longer.

It helps that my old job was writing html; it's not a very easy thing to use, and would be much more useful if it were.

All my posts including this one are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
[ Parent ]

Weird economics (4.78 / 14) (#121)
by dark on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 07:10:31 AM EST

The story ads are more intrusive and annoying than the frontpage ads, so they should cost more, not less. That there are more story views just means you have a larger capacity. The rate-limiting feature should take care of that. The way you have it now, I predict that frontpage ads will dry up in favour of story ads, and we'll end up with an increased annoyance level for less benefit.

Based on my own reactions I'd suggest either making them ten times more expensive, or moving them someplace more pleasant like in the sidebars. The frontpage ads are doing fine without being stuck inside the index, right?

Also, what's with the buffer ads? All the annoyance, none of the benefit. Just leave them out if no-one's paying.

Wrong approach (5.00 / 2) (#158)
by mcherm on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:39:51 AM EST

Instead of trying to guess the right price to charge, just adjust the prices until the number of ads in each category approximately matches the number of views (perhaps reserving an extra 20% or so of capacity for peaks).

-- Michael Chermside
[ Parent ]
Greatest sig ever! <nt> (3.00 / 1) (#159)
by borful on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:48:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
obligatory me too (none / 0) (#209)
by eudas on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:02:16 PM EST

i agree.

"We're placing this wood in your ass for the good of the world" -- mrgoat
[ Parent ]

Re: "Greatest sig ever" (4.00 / 1) (#293)
by mcherm on Thu Apr 10, 2003 at 05:43:07 PM EST

Gee.. Thanks!

-- Michael Chermside

Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible,
[ Parent ]
Ads (4.00 / 5) (#122)
by spottedkangaroo on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 07:25:53 AM EST

I really like the text adds on the section pages, however, I really don't want them in the stories. Could we get a couple more options to the ads yes/no box?

If not, I'll have to turn them all off... which is something I don't really want to do.

there is room for an entire (4.33 / 3) (#123)
by The Terrorists on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 07:27:02 AM EST

sonnet in that ad!!!!! Dammit Rusty. :)

Watch your mouth, pigfucker. -- Rusty Foster

Damned straight! (none / 0) (#153)
by jabber on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:25:34 AM EST

I shall buy no ad until I can fill the space with a proper sestina.

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"
[ Parent ]

Good idea (3.80 / 5) (#125)
by hulver on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 07:31:53 AM EST

I was someone who requested Adverts on story views, because the Index page adverts just last too long.

I really don't like this though. The advert on the left really distracts from the story. Please, if you have to leave the Advert in the body of the story (I sort of assumed it would be in the right hand control bar when you mentioned it before) move it to the right hand side of the page.


They Improve K5's Graphic Design Too (4.00 / 2) (#126)
by The Terrorists on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 07:48:11 AM EST

Oh does the slight non-verticality conferred upon the story by the ad work wonders.

I want little ads all over the place as an option. Three shapes - square, vertical rectangle and horizontal rectangle - in order to give you design options. Also making the ad text different colors would rock hard core. Especially if the palette ws interesting.

Watch your mouth, pigfucker. -- Rusty Foster

Somewhat Agree (none / 0) (#185)
by nhlinux on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:30:48 PM EST

Having something break up walls of text is always a good thing. One of the things I dislike about the site design is that it becomes too overwhelming to the eye. It's quite fatiguing to wade through giant blocks of gray one page after another. The new ad design is oddly quite ergonomic in that it provides a splash of color to break things up.

[ Parent ]
I think so (5.00 / 1) (#204)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:04:21 PM EST

I didn't want to say it because I'd get accused of making up lame excuses, but I think so too.

Ok, I moved it over to the right. Let's see if anyone changes their mind.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

column size (none / 0) (#239)
by chu on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:36:09 PM EST

The single wide text column is not good for readability. Newspaper/magazine standard is 70 characters but screen should be a bit more. I think you could easily get another full-length column for ads and/or something else - if it was bordered right the way down it wouldn't mingle with the content so much.

[ Parent ]
alternative idea (4.33 / 3) (#127)
by tps12 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 07:57:21 AM EST

I don't really like these ads, but I think there's an alternative that could be just as successful and far less annoying. In real life, companies will often sponsor popular athletes. In exchange for some money, the athletes agree to wear the companies' logos and "get the name out there."

I suggest an analogous program on k5. All Trusted Users would be eligible for sponsorship, and could ask any price they want. Potential sponsors could browse the price list, and then sign up with whomever they choose (if the TU agrees; nobody's going to be forced to sell Nazi memoribilia or anything) using a set of variable terms (like, one sponsor might want a TU to post a diary every weekday mentioning the product, whereas another might want a comment in each FP story mentioning the product in the user's sig).

Hmm... (4.00 / 1) (#128)
by explodingheadboy on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:16:53 AM EST

...one sponsor might want a TU to post a diary every weekday mentioning the product...
I'm not so sure thats a great idea... the diary section is where we get to express ourselves not to express our bought love for some product, I'm not so sure TU's would flock together and agree to such a thing.

Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse?
A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!!

[*rmg is dying]
[ Parent ]

3 points (4.00 / 1) (#135)
by tps12 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:51:57 AM EST

  1. There is already no guarantee of objectivity, merely an assumption that people are not being payed to write what they write in their diaries.
  2. The sponsorships would be public, with a link to a user's current and past sponsors on his or her User Info page. So if I'm going on about my hot new Brand X Sprocket Dispenser, you can just click over to my sponsor page and see whether I'm on Brand X's payroll. Additionally, sponsors could be optionally displayed in comment headers or alongside diaries, so you would see a new diary up "By tps12 (for Brand X)."
  3. The existence of sponsorship would also increase the credibility of folks who don't accept sponsors. People who see that I've never been sponsored, and don't list myself on the "spokespeople for hire" page, might be more likely to accept my opinions as unbiased. Of course, this just increases my value to potential sponsors...

[ Parent ]
Interesting points... (none / 0) (#196)
by explodingheadboy on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:32:28 PM EST

But, the thing that gets me is: Why are sprockets always what we use in our examples?

Really, why not finely aged cheeses, or computer hardware, or shoes?

Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse?
A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!!

[*rmg is dying]
[ Parent ]

no, sometimes we use widgets (nt) (none / 0) (#197)
by tps12 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:38:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Yes, that is true. (none / 0) (#201)
by explodingheadboy on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:12:52 PM EST

But, only in the event that all the sprockets are occupied or otherwise unavailable.

Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse?
A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!!

[*rmg is dying]
[ Parent ]

On a related note, your sig (none / 0) (#199)
by DesiredUsername on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:06:53 PM EST

I first heard that exact same joke back in 1989 or 1990. That's 13-14 years ago, and the only thing that's changed is it asks how many pancakes can "fit in a doghouse" now, whereas it used to ask how many pancakes "it would take to shingle a doghouse". My question is, since the joke is surreal and absurdist, why the incredible stability as to content?

Play 囲碁
[ Parent ]
It's simple. (none / 0) (#200)
by explodingheadboy on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:11:37 PM EST

Chaos, as all things, has logic. To break that logic would be to break the chaotic incoherency of the joke. And therefore rendering it completely un-funny.

This particular joke has achieved a nearly perfect ratio of logic to chaos. It stands to reason that it would make it's comeback as an effective means of humor more than a decade after its first discovery.

Q: If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse?
A: None! Ice cream doesn't have bones!!!

[*rmg is dying]
[ Parent ]

Errr... (none / 0) (#132)
by DesiredUsername on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:36:15 AM EST

So how does that money get to K5?

In other news, I don't see any ads. I'm browsing the comments now to figure out why (browsing complete. answer not found.). If I have a subscription, are they turned off hard or is it an option?

Play 囲碁
[ Parent ]

User Prefs (none / 0) (#133)
by hulver on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:42:03 AM EST

Show Ads -> Yes.

[ Parent ]
good point (none / 0) (#136)
by tps12 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:54:48 AM EST

I guess my plan was more about gaining the means for me to polish my own monocle.

The obvious answer is that "k5 gets a cut." Now that I think about it, k5 should probably get a pretty big cut, to make implementing such a system worthwhile. Or maybe TUs would pay a listing fee to be eligible.

[ Parent ]

If you want to polish your monocole (none / 0) (#147)
by DesiredUsername on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:55:54 AM EST

see here for a better implementation. This solves the credibility gap issue but still lines the pockets of the diary elite with the blood of the reading classes.

Play 囲碁
[ Parent ]
Hmmm... (5.00 / 1) (#137)
by The Turd Report on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:57:23 AM EST

I need to start writing toilet paper companies...

[ Parent ]
Why Trusted Users? (4.00 / 1) (#140)
by duffbeer703 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:26:11 AM EST

A Sponsored User could have his name highlighted in story comments or have diaries showcased in some manner.

Restricting sponsorship to trusted users makes it far too easy for a small number of users to "shut down" somebody's sponsorship. It doesn't take too many 0 or 1 ratings to take someone's trusted status away.

[ Parent ]

good point (4.00 / 1) (#146)
by tps12 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:35:35 AM EST

I guess I was thinking that sponsors would prefer sponsees who are generally respected on the site, which usually means TU. But you're right, requiring TU-ship would make modstorming too deadly.

[ Parent ]
On preferences... (2.66 / 3) (#130)
by belldandi on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:24:15 AM EST

First off, I am not a fan of the advertisement taking over part of the main text space. It's not just here, I find it distracting anytime I see it on any site.

However, I am not going to complain too much about it - why - because I do subscribe. I don't mind the ad format on the index page, but I definitely don't want to see the story ads.

Point: Is it possible to separate out the options to disable ads into a) Disable Story ads and b) Disable Index ads, or some such?


Every time I hear an OO purist talk, I want to pick up my bat object, come to their house object, and start bashing their skull object. -- hardburn
I'm going to add my voice (3.33 / 3) (#134)
by lazyll on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:47:59 AM EST

to the list of people who don't like it. Ads right in the story text would be very annoying.

Ugh -- these ads suck (3.66 / 3) (#138)
by Silent Chris on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:11:19 AM EST

Simple reason: the original text ads were quirky, would last long, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, were on the front page.  They were part of the site, not part of the content (I know it's a simple positioning thing, but "off to the left on the front page" and "in each story" are two completely different things).  These are just as intrusive, if not worse, than those full page vertical ads that are so popular for now -- if for no other reason that these are text and actually look like they blend in with the story.

I'm one of the few subscribers, I think, that actually has text ads on.  I think they're kind of cool.  However, if this new "story text ad" thing were to go through, I would shut mine off.  I don't think that's the goal (have less people viewing the ads).

Not bad, but... [suggestions] (4.44 / 9) (#139)
by aziegler on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:18:25 AM EST

I agree with folks that there should be a few changes.
  1. Two formats: squat and tall. Squat is a bit wider, but intrudes on less of the story vertically. Tall is the existing forrmat. This is chosen after adding the text. Possibly a third "wide" format (width of the story, either above or below).
  2. On the right of the story, not the left. It's nicely set off from the story itself, but I find it a bit too jarring right now.
  3. Disable ads on the "Post comment" page. I'm absolutley not going to click on an ad when I'm posting a comment; further, because it jumps to "#here", the ad will not be seen unless I'm actually going to the top. This burns an ad-view needlessly.
  4. Disable ads on stories in "edit" mode. Possibly also disable ads on stories in "vote" mode -- do we want ads on stories that aren't going to make it?
  5. Allow me to choose to disable ads independently (index vs. story) as a subscriber.
Many of these have already been suggested, but it doesn't hurt to clarify them.


Please move ads to the right (5.00 / 1) (#167)
by HidingMyName on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:03:40 AM EST

The previous poster is correct, it especially breaks up stories that use indentation to structure the content.

[ Parent ]
Thanks, Rusty: (none / 0) (#217)
by aziegler on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:31:53 PM EST

the ads look great on the right. Enough so that I probably won't disable them as a subscriber.


[ Parent ]

-1 Site News (3.83 / 6) (#141)
by duxup on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:27:12 AM EST

Not pleased, completely terrified (2.00 / 2) (#143)
by AmberEyes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:28:50 AM EST

Give me <img></img> options that I can set for use in both my diary's extended copy and comments in my diary, and I shall buy a subscription, sir.


"But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
If he does this (5.00 / 1) (#162)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:52:03 AM EST

He needs to give users the option to disable graphics in an article; you just know some boneheads out there will start posting 3Mb 24-bit color bitmaps just to piss people off. Witness the 'W' stupidity in the diaries.

[ Parent ]
Diaries are optional (none / 0) (#168)
by AmberEyes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:10:06 AM EST

And especially since you have to click on "read more".

I don't have much sympathy for people who complain about diaries. They're opt-in activities, and no one forces you to read them.

I don't want img tags to do that kinda stuff though, I want them to make my diaries better. I do computer game stuff, and would like to put images in diaries when I talk about stuff. Links to pictures break the flow terribly.


"But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
[ Parent ]
Diaries (none / 0) (#172)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:22:30 AM EST

I enjoy reading the diaries, and the kind of stuff that you're talking about I'd have no problem with. I can see how the ability to include images could enhance it, but also keep in mind that you can't vote down diary entries like you can stories. Someone puts an annoying picture in a story, it'll fall off the site pretty damned fast. Put it in a diary, on the other hand... you get the picture. Give people an inch, they take a mile.

Like I said, I'm not against it, I'd just like the ability to flip it off without having to disable graphics in my browser.

[ Parent ]
No, no img tags in the intro copy (none / 0) (#178)
by AmberEyes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:45:30 AM EST

I mean, in the extended copy. So you have to click SPECIFICALLY on a diary in order to see them. Nothing like 400 images on the main diary page that are unavoidable to see while you browse for your favorite diary.


"But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
[ Parent ]
Hmmm (none / 0) (#207)
by jt on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:16:15 PM EST

What's to stop some sicko from posting a diary with interesting/harmless intro copy, then embedding the goatse guy or whatever in the extended copy?

[ Parent ]
I dunno (none / 0) (#208)
by AmberEyes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:32:17 PM EST

But do you really need someone to hold you hand for you while you browse teh intarweb?

BTW, by that train of thought, we should get rid of HREF too, since we can sneak in pictures of bad files under harmless looking names.

If goatse.cx and the other really bother you so much, I don't know how you've survived on teh intarweb for this long.

Of course, you *could* just avoid reading Person X's diaries from there on out....


"But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
[ Parent ]
At work or home (none / 0) (#231)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 07:04:29 PM EST

Little Johnny is educating himself about malaria, TEUs, and scumbag politicians. He then sees a diary which purports to discuss woodchucks. Little Johnny, a big fan of woodchucks, clicks on the diary, but alas! It is a goatse man, and Little Johnny's Mommy just walked in to check if he did his homework. Little Johnny gets cut off from the Internet and grows up to be a bum.

"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

As much as I absolutely love this scenario (none / 0) (#236)
by AmberEyes on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:07:31 PM EST

I still don't buy the idea of protecting us from ourselves because of what might happen. Seems like we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


"But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
[ Parent ]
YES MOMMY PROTECT ME (5.00 / 1) (#245)
by jt on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 03:19:47 AM EST


Actually, you are right.  And I didn't even find tubgirl that disgusting (I think I saw it long ago before it was known as tubgirl too! Aren't I speshul?)

Also, considering you suggested the img tags be for subscribers only, one wonders who would fork over money to troll random users of K5...

[ Parent ]

Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#246)
by AmberEyes on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 03:23:13 AM EST

Maybe if a troll is willing to fork over money to pay for image tags, he ought to be respected ;)


"But you [AmberEyes] have never admitted defeat your entire life, so why should you start now. It seems the only perfect human being since Jesus Christ himself is in our presence." -my Uncle Dean
[ Parent ]
i'd like two options in user prefs please.. (4.50 / 6) (#144)
by infinitera on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:29:30 AM EST

instead of the one currently there. I like normal text ads, but want to turn this off. Please? ;)

Second that (5.00 / 2) (#154)
by CaptainSuperBoy on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:33:16 AM EST

I like seeing the text ads, but I had to turn off all ads just to get rid of the story page ads.

jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.
[ Parent ]
I don't like 'em (3.50 / 4) (#145)
by ghjm on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:31:35 AM EST

As a matter of personal preference, I don't like the way they look. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, or that my opinion is of any particular aesthetic value. I'm just saying I don't like 'em. Which means that I'm probably going to turn them off. Unfortunately, when I do that, I'll also stop seeing text ads on the main page.

If the group "subscribers who don't like these new ads but didn't mind the front page text ads" is larger than just me, then it might be worth your time to update the user preferences section so that you can enable/disable the the two different ad types independently.


Contrary to many on this thread (4.33 / 3) (#148)
by CodeWright on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:03:12 AM EST

I like pretty much everything about the new ad format -- even though I am a subscriber, I browse with ads turned on (and ,unlike 99.999% of the web advertising out there, I have actually clicked through on a not-insignificant number of k5's textads).

"Humanity's combination of reckless stupidity and disrespect for the mistakes of others is, I think, what makes us great." --
Subscriber browsing with ads on (4.00 / 1) (#155)
by mcherm on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:36:00 AM EST

Good, I wondered if I was the only subscriber who left ads turned on. Actually, I'd be curious to know what % of subscribers turn ads on.

-- Michael Chermside
[ Parent ]
A lot of us, I think [nt] (4.50 / 2) (#161)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:49:57 AM EST

[ Parent ]
AWFUL [nt] (2.00 / 2) (#150)
by 5pectre on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:06:10 AM EST

"Let us kill the English, their concept of individual rights might undermine the power of our beloved tyrants!!" - Lisa Simpson [ -1.50 / -7.74]

Fine (4.33 / 3) (#151)
by nevertheless on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:12:08 AM EST

As long as they don't flash or buzz or beep or whine (or whinge in the UK) or move around the screen, and they are adequately set off from article text and marked as an advertisement (all of which is true), I have no problem with them at all.

This whole "being at work" thing just isn't doing it for me. -- Phil the Canuck

what a bunch of whiners! (2.66 / 3) (#152)
by sethadam1 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:22:51 AM EST

If you don't like the ads, buy a subscription and filter them out!

As a Linux user, let me just ask, why do some many tech people think they're entitled to everything for free.

Rusty - keep the ads running, sometimes, I enjoy reading them.  Everyone else - read em, ignore em, or buy a subscription and turn em off.  

Really, people.

What? (none / 0) (#156)
by hulver on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:37:31 AM EST

Is nobody else entitled to an opinion on a major change to a look of one of the biggest parts of the site?

Just FYI, I have a subscription, but I keep ads turned on because I find interesting things through them.

I don't like these new adverts.

[ Parent ]

Same here (none / 0) (#160)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:49:01 AM EST

I keep the ads on too; read a bit down, and you'll see that Rusty is going to give us the option to turn off ads just in stories, but keep them on the index.

[ Parent ]
Not good enough (none / 0) (#163)
by hulver on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:52:13 AM EST

These ads spoil the stories for non-subscribers. At the very least I think they need to be moved.

[ Parent ]
Spoil the stories? (none / 0) (#165)
by mstefan on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:01:39 AM EST

I just don't get that. It's not like the story is being changed by the ad; I fail to see how it spoils anything, anymore than ads in a newspaper spoil an article there.

And, frankly, if it encourages people to cough up a few measly dollars for a subscription, that's great too.

[ Parent ]
P.S. (5.00 / 1) (#157)
by hulver on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:39:16 AM EST

Not everything rusty does is right you know. It is alright to critise him.

[ Parent ]
Believe me, that's not it. (none / 0) (#193)
by sethadam1 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:05:33 PM EST

I don't know Rusty and I don't care one bit if I offend him while stating my opinion or what I believe is truth.  He seems like a nice guy, but I certainly am not one of these K5 site princesses who travels story to story following Rusty's comments and holding a worshipful bonfire each time the K5 god speaks.    

However, I so like Rusty's site and I support his ability to place ads anywhere and everywhere on it.  He's given you the option to turn them off if you cough up a few bucks, and it looks like he'll even allow you to turn just just the story ads.  Seems like a sweet deal from a nice enough guy proving a service I certainly use regularly.

I just think it's funny/sad that so many people are so friggin dramatic about it.  It's a website, and it's a lot of bandwidth, most of which is probably consumed by people who are being overly critical and acting like the core of the earth has stopped spinning.    

[ Parent ]

Excess drama (none / 0) (#205)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 03:10:09 PM EST

I agree about the drama. We could all probably do with a little less of that. No, the world is not ending, we're not selling out, and you don't ned to sstorm off in a huff. :-)

But criticism is perfectly fine. If people don't say what they think, how will I ever know?

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Text Ads (4.60 / 5) (#166)
by Dickie Crickets on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:02:24 AM EST

Text ads, so effective,
Two hundred for a dime.
Baby reads those text ads,
Clickin' 'em all the tiiiiiiiime.

King of Megaphone Crooners
Text Ads (none / 0) (#305)
by Kid Jersey on Sat May 03, 2003 at 04:49:31 PM EST

Oh! Text ads, text ads,
Baby says that they're a dream.
Text ads, text ads,
X-10 camera and penis creaaaaaamm!
Aren't they just a scream?

Thank you
[ Parent ]
People are Funny (3.50 / 4) (#176)
by pgrote on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:42:01 AM EST

The man makes 30K a year. That's it. He's put together a great site and works feverishly in the background to make it a place where you want to come and participate.

The ads on the left aren't a big deal. You'll get used to them. They're on the left so you notice them, which is the idea behind advertising. If you hadn't noticed you read from left to right.

The ads have no moving parts, will not injure you and are legal in all countries around the world.

If you don't like the ads buy a subscription.

By all means you're within your right to use third party ad removal software, but think about it ... while supposedly improving your browing environment you're not supporting K5.

Quit bellyaching and use the subscription model or understand that the ads are necessary to continue this site. This whole free lunch attitude expressed in the posts is disgusting. No ads equals no K5. Simple as that.

It could be worse. Rusty could make a killing selling porn pop ups or requiring each peron to, gasp, pay to use the site.

hm (4.00 / 1) (#181)
by tps12 on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:01:56 PM EST

It could be worse. Rusty could make a killing selling porn pop ups or requiring each peron to, gasp, pay to use the site.
In which case, people would bitch, and you'd post an identical comment (30K a year, legal in all countries, buy a subscription, &c.).

As for "no ads equals no K5," I don't know where you're getting that impression. It's explicitly stated in the story that the new ads are not indicative of financial trouble.

So rusty asked for feedback, and he's getting it; most people don't like the ads, some people don't mind, some people subscribe and have ads turned off, so don't care one way or the other. It's great that you're cool with them, but don't try to paint those who aren't as some kind of conniving freeloaders.

[ Parent ]

:-) They are. (3.00 / 1) (#182)
by pgrote on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:10:34 PM EST

"It's great that you're cool with them, but don't try to paint those who aren't as some kind of conniving freeloaders"

Most are. It's human nature to expect a free lunch.

As for not needing the money, don't look at it in the short term ... go long term. K5 may not need the money now, but it will. All things are cylical.

[ Parent ]

I think (none / 0) (#269)
by trane on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 10:22:46 PM EST

we should turn k5 into an anarcho-syndicalist commune. Each of us could act as a sort of executive officer for the week. All the decisions of that officer would have to be ratified, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal matters, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major --

[ Parent ]
Balance! (none / 0) (#258)
by obsidian head on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 09:16:10 AM EST

You need balance.  K5 can't make the ads too jarring and nasty, otherwise it will degrade the site and lead to less subscriptions and even ads.  OTOH, ads still need to be effective.  There's an antagonism here, and finding the right balance is important.

[ Parent ]
Ad/editorial merge bad, bad (4.60 / 5) (#179)
by Domino on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:52:28 AM EST

The placement makes the ad seem like part of the story, in a way that the sponsor ads don't. I realize that the trend in person-manipulation circles is to confuse content with ads as much as possible, as in product placement and "advertorials". But these are sleazy moves that K5 would do well to resist.

And then there's the question of the ad being associated visually with a particular story whose writer might dislike the product/company/person being advertised.

K5 will be classier if it either keeps ads in the righthand column or creates a new lefthand column just for the rotating ads, thus maintaining a clear separation between ad and content, and not intruding on what until now has been seen as the author's space.

BTW, rusty, I don't get your statement that the righthand column doesn't get looked at. People don't click on "my comments" "moderate submissions", or look at the polls? Hard to believe.

I think you'd be better off to put the page ads in the righthand column, where you could have a whole bunch of them, all the way to the bottom of the story, if demand was there. If there were more classified ads in the righthand column, especially with links and comments, I'd read them with interest, and without the feeling of hostility that the present intrusive placement provokes.

imho (none / 0) (#279)
by kpaul on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 06:12:46 PM EST

they're clearly marked as Ads and if they keep the site free, i'm all for them. i see the points you're making, though.

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]
Not bad, but... (4.60 / 5) (#183)
by coderlemming on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:14:51 PM EST

What about stories in the edit and moderation queues?  For some reason it strikes me as a bit unwise to show ads in these stories... especially, consider a story that's badly written and going to tank anyway, and suddenly some sponsor has wasted an ad impression on a pissed off audience.  Perhaps you should disable ads entirely in the moderation queue, or only if the audience is "favorable"?

Also, (I think this may have been mentioned), it seems like the ad is somewhat sponsoring the specific story.  This backfires when it's a story that's going to tank instantly.  Actually, come to think of it, you've got to be careful... because a story might completely clash with the ad, ruining the chance for a clickthrough because the ad and story are right next to eachother.  Targetted advertising by section might help.

Other than that, I think these ads are pretty tastefully done, considering.  I'm realistic, I know you have to eat... best it's this way, not in a much more annoying way.  However, if the story is too small for the entire height of the body (some kind of heuristic could take a good guess), then perhaps you should turn the ad into a horizontal block at the end, or cut it entirely?

Go be impersonally used as an organic semen collector!  (porkchop_d_clown)

woohoo! more money for rusty! (2.50 / 2) (#184)
by gps on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:21:41 PM EST

it'll keep the site alive and rusty well fed.

We can't turn them off? (4.00 / 1) (#186)
by Spork on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:30:48 PM EST

For people who are really poor and know they won't buy anything because of an ad, is it possible to turn them off in our account? If they were graphics, we could do it with Mozilla, but Mozilla can't hide these.

I expect there are many people like me, who never bought anything in their life because of an online banner ad. Others, who are interested in what's available, should be the ones seeing the ads. For me, though, an ad like this one just poisons this site, and suddenly makes me feel like I'm creating content for someone else's profit. I'm sure that's not the case, but still I can't avoid the feeling.

In any case, a way to turn off the ads would fix all my reservations.

At minimum, people who submit stories should be able to tick an option that says "no ad may be appended to my story."

Why? (4.50 / 2) (#188)
by SimonTzu on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:49:20 PM EST

If you cannot bring yourself to applaud the advertisers for helping suppport Kuro5hin you should at least tolerate them.

Turning ads off is reserved for subscribers.  If you  cannot afford a subscription and really dislike the advertisments then perhaps you should negotiate something else to help support the site, or Rusty and his family.

You contribute to the site but also gain from it.  This collaboration possible because of Rusty's hard work.  If (like me)you cannot reward him because you don't have much money the very least you can do is tolerate the advertiments.

Simon Tzu
[ Parent ]

Yes, but (none / 0) (#202)
by aphrael on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:27:36 PM EST

Allowing subscribers to specify that *their stories* (eg., ones written by them) should not have ads, or that a *particular story* should not have ads, would be a good feature. Ads aren't appropriate for some stories.

[ Parent ]
OK, I've reconsidered. The ads suck! (4.66 / 3) (#187)
by Spork on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 12:43:31 PM EST

Well, I just finished my rounds of story reading and moderation, and I must say that I have a distinct feeling that K5 got a whole lot shittier today. These ads, especially due to their placement are incredibly distracting. Mixed in with heartfelt stories about serious things, I'd go as far as saying they're distasteful, and it will only get worse once they actually start selling merchandise.

If I can't turn these off, my enthusiasm about doing anything for K5 will seriously diminish. Let annonymous cowards look at the ads, or people who specifically request to see them. I want out.

How to turn the ads off (1.00 / 1) (#215)
by your corporate master on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:16:06 PM EST

It's really easy.

[ Parent ]
full agreement with some coments below: (4.00 / 2) (#192)
by mscholz on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:04:15 PM EST

  1. If you need the ad revenue to help the site, I have no problem with them.
  2. The ad, as placed and designed right now, makes rapid, easy browsing of K5 impossible.  Can you at least TRY it on the right side?  Or at the bottom of the article?  Quickly?  I'm not averse to ads, I even click through on interesting ones, but it really does degrade the reading experience.  I'm honestly afraid to go browse the diary section now.
  3. I missed your diary entry.  So I feel my input was not taken into account. ;)

you are a shining light streaming up through a hellish, smoking chasm of stupidity. - webwench
Well (4.50 / 2) (#194)
by gbd on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:06:38 PM EST

I tend to like the existing text ads; they're small, unobtrusive, and K5 users usually advertise interesting things instead of some of the crap you see elsewhere, such as penis pills, electric trombones, or genetically-engineered dog food. But I can't say that I'm particularly thrilled about these new ads. They're just -- visually jarring. I don't know how else to put it. I mean, it's not the end of the world by any stretch of the imagination, but it distracts from the whole flow of the page.

I also share some of the concern that has been voiced by others that people might assume that there is some correlation between the story content and the ad that accompanies it. What if (for example) I write a story praising turnips, and some idiot submits an ad for his anti-turnip hate site, and the two end up side-by-side? Every molecule in the universe would explode outwards at the speed of light (that's bad.)

Gunter glieben glauchen globen.

Maybe they'd be less jarring if (none / 0) (#267)
by astatine on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 08:36:14 PM EST

they were moved over into the administrivia column on the right, maybe even added to the bottom of the Sponsors box without extra border/background formatting. The existing index page text ads don't jar because they fit into the format; these ads create a float box in the main text flow, making it irregular. Admittedly, a float on the right is less distracting than a float on the left, but avoiding a float is even better. (By the way... don't avoid the float by breaking the story or you'll hear REAL yowls of complaint.)

Just my 2 cents, anyway.

Society, they say, exists to safeguard the rights of the individual. If this is so, the primary right of a human being is evidently to live unrealistically.Celia Green
[ Parent ]

The opinion of a professional asshole (4.66 / 3) (#195)
by trhurler on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 01:06:42 PM EST

Whizard is right. Move them to the right side rather than the left so they won't screw up the story formatting so much. Other than that, I can't say I care one way or another. I might buy one, if I can think up something offensive and self aggrandizing.

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

Time to reduce premium subscriptions then I think. (3.00 / 2) (#203)
by HardwareLust on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 02:42:50 PM EST

The new ads suck, but I've seen worse. If you need the money that bad, then fine. I'm sure you'll survive without those peeps that you're chasing off. What I would like to see from you is a reduction in the subscription cost to eliminate the ads. $24 and $48 dollars a year is entirely too much! Considering I read on avg. about 4 stories a month, then I'm paying $.50 A PIECE for them at minimum, and most of them just ain't worth that kind of money to me. I would venture to say, something along the lines of $12 a year would be much more palatable. The addtional windfall you're gaining from the new ad block should justify the reduction in subscription cost. Either that, or you can always use it to pad your salary back up to the $70k range again. It would be worth $12 cash to get rid of the ads for a year to me. If it's more than that, I'll probably just stop coming here.

If you disagree, POST, don't moderate!

That's better (4.66 / 3) (#210)
by lazyll on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:13:44 PM EST

Earlier I said I don't like them, but now that they've moved to the right I find they don't bother me anymore. Thanks.

Yay (5.00 / 1) (#211)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:16:41 PM EST

One convert. 19,999 to go.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
agreed, much better n/t (5.00 / 1) (#212)
by eightball on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:18:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
agreed (5.00 / 2) (#214)
by Delirium on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 04:37:16 PM EST

I still don't like them, but I dislike them less. :-P

[ Parent ]
Time to renew my subscription... (4.00 / 1) (#216)
by enterfornone on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:25:05 PM EST

I don't mind the old ones too much, because they are positioned somewhere that can easily be ignored, but these are right in my line of site as I scroll down the page. I guess that's sort of the point. Well they are much nicer than the image ads slap bang in the middle of stories like some news sites use.

But since I've got your attention (I do have your attention right?) the main reason I didn't renew my subscription was the diary hotlists. It sucks. The little box on the side was just too small to bother with and would be full of old diaries you never got around to reading.

Much better I think would be to just display the most recent diaries from your hotlisted authors in a normal diary page. I'd definitly pay for that.

It doesn't sound like it would be too hard to code. I'd do it myself if I could ever work out how to install scoop without clobbering the rest of the web stuff on my machine.

I'm pretty sure people have suggested something similar in the past and it has been given the thumbs down as it would stop people reading the normal diaries page (and make diaries even cliquier than they already are) but I think restricting it to subscribers would prevent that occuring.

efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.

That's a good idea (none / 0) (#221)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:42:58 PM EST

Actually, I don't think it's been suggested before. You're right, it shouldn't be a big problem to do that. Added to list.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Before... (none / 0) (#222)
by enterfornone on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:49:58 PM EST

Now that I think of it, it was probably suggested previously in terms of a kill list rather than a watch list.

efn 26/m/syd
Will sponsor new accounts for porn.
[ Parent ]
Damn (4.83 / 6) (#218)
by bc on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:32:36 PM EST

There's something really fucking sleazy and slimy about adverts right among content the users have slaved to generate, specially positioned to take advantage of that work.

Not that I mind the other textads, and special sections for companies contributing cash, and whatnot, but this is a bit much!

♥, bc.

Income sharing (5.00 / 1) (#220)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 05:39:42 PM EST

I'm working on an income-sharing scheme. So ads in your atories make you a little money. Does that change your mind about "sleazy" any?

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
"sleazy" (1.00 / 1) (#223)
by Captain_Tenille on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:18:08 PM EST

I've always been OK with sleazy. From what I recall from the last time I saw you at MattOly's momma's house, you sure as hell seemed to enjoy "sleazy" too.
/* You are not expected to understand this. */

Man Vs. Nature: The Road to Victory!
[ Parent ]

Subject: (1.00 / 1) (#229)
by MattOly on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:54:32 PM EST


A final note to...the Republican party. You do not want to get into a fight with David Letterman. ...He's simply more believable than you are.
[ Parent ]

I'm sorry, I can't hear you... (1.00 / 1) (#230)
by Captain_Tenille on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:59:10 PM EST

What was that again?
/* You are not expected to understand this. */

Man Vs. Nature: The Road to Victory!
[ Parent ]

heh (1.00 / 1) (#232)
by MattOly on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 07:14:03 PM EST

Oh yah. Touche.

A final note to...the Republican party. You do not want to get into a fight with David Letterman. ...He's simply more believable than you are.
[ Parent ]

Well (none / 0) (#224)
by bc on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:22:18 PM EST

In order for that to work there'd need to be the option for a submitter to say "no, I don't want to share income from any ads, so I don't want any ads." Otherwise it wouldn't really alleviate any criticism on that score. Trouble is, if you implement that I'd bet almost nobody would opt to share income, so it wouldn't work.

The only way you could make it work is to ensure there are always ads nomatter what the user selects, and that means it is just a PR fudge, which seems sleazier still!

I think if you want to avoid such accusations, its much better to either not implement the ads, or damn all naysayers and sceptics to hell and implement it anyway, put yer foot down, so to speak, which is much less sleazy. No half measures ;)

♥, bc.
[ Parent ]

Heh (5.00 / 4) (#227)
by rusty on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:33:13 PM EST

No half measures, eh? :-)

What I have in mind is basically tracking paid ad views on your stories. It's actually doing that right now, in an advisory kind of way. Basically, every time the ad box serves a real ad on a story page, it increments the author's counter by one.

What I'd like to do is provide a field for people to enter a paypal address if they want, and we'd just paypal them some cash when their account has enough credit to make it worth the transfer. If you don't want to get a cut, you can just leave the field blank, or give us someone else's address. A non profit, or favorite blogger's tip jar, or whatever.

Letting authors choose whether they have ads show up or not would make the whole thing a pain in the ass to administer, and doesn't really make sense to me. It's not a PR fudge, it's an actual realization that there's finally a system by which it makes sense for us to compensate authors, which I've wanted to do forever. I just didn't want to do it in such a way that would have a chance of exceeding income and bankruptinbg us. This way, we basically never promise money we haven't already collected.

I think I'm going to just do it, and damn the torpedoes. AFAIK, no one's really done this before. Should be interesting. :-)

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

payment, and other stuff (5.00 / 2) (#234)
by Kellnerin on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:02:05 PM EST

I'm not sure if has already been suggested, but would it be a pain in the ass to create a K5 account for each user, that could keep track of "K5 dollars" for lack of a better term? That is, a balance of money that could be spent to buy ads, subscriptions, etc. through K5 (maybe other swag as well if you ever add that).

Anyway, this idea came about because I was thinking it would be neat to be able to give people gift subscriptions, but that it would be even neater to take it further and be able to donate to a fund that they could use to buy text ads, as well. For instance, if someone started a text ad story like OPMS and I liked it, and wanted to encourage more, I'd chip in a few bucks toward the next ad.

So, if you're going to set up a system by which authors can get paid, maybe a K5 account option would be attractive to people who don't (or won't) use paypal. Of course, there will be others who don't want whatever money they earn to be locked up in K5 goods, so paypal would be a good option too; it would just be nice to be able to choose either one.

More logistical questions: how much money would a story have to earn before you send them money? One cent? One dollar? Do ad views in the edit and voting queues count towards what they earn? (Should the ads even show in the queue?) Will you pay the same for a "default ad" as for a user-submitted ad?

On a different note, I like the placement on the right better. At first I thought it'd clutter up the right hand side too much, but the thin border and shading of the ad are light enough that they don't look too unbalanced. And it's less jarring than the left-handed placement, at least in a longer article.

And, thanks for not adding ads to the diaries ;)

--"Damn you, johnny, you always have the answers" -Parent ]

Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#275)
by codemonkey_uk on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 08:30:06 AM EST

Yes, if I were to "earn" money from my k5 articles, I think I might actually prefer occational extra days on my (currently expired) subscription than a few dollars here and there.
"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way." - Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]
That's tempting (5.00 / 1) (#252)
by djotto on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 05:07:22 AM EST

(it's depressing how easily I can be bought - up until that point I was semi-considering a "-1 on all ad stories" campaign.)

Now... well, how I can see some odd side-effects - authors pimping their stories to push them up Blogdex and bring the page views in, for example. K5ers will end up with a reputation on a par with telephone salesmen :)

How many views does an article typically get? I'm not talking about the occasional one that gets stuck on the front page of slashdot... just a little tech story like, say, codemonkey_uk's one on iterators.

[ Parent ]

So what if I submit a story now? (none / 0) (#286)
by marcos on Mon Apr 07, 2003 at 03:47:09 PM EST

Will I get a cheque in the mail?

I have about 10 half complete tech stories sitting in my in-box (in the traditional sense), and I never got round to finishing them. Even if I got twopence apiece, It'd motivate me a bit. But then, my stories are usually dry and dull, so the hits will not rack me up a fortune, I fear.

Darn God! Why did you make me such a boring fellow?!

[ Parent ]

Instead of income sharing: (none / 0) (#225)
by ennui on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:29:32 PM EST

I'd like to see a K5 "points" system. Like, if something you write goes FP you get 500 points, section 100. Then the points can be redeemed, something like:

  • 10,000 points - 5% discount on membership
  • 50,000 points - Kuro5hin Mouse Pad
  • 100,000 points - Autographed picture of Rusty
  • 250,000 points - Kuro5hin Coffee Mug
  • 500,000 points - Kuro5hin Logo Teeshirt
  • 1,000,000 points - Kuro5hin "My story made FP and all I got was this lousy Teeshirt" Teeshirt
  • 10,000,000 points - Kuro5hin Monocle
This scheme would help build brand recognition for Kuro5hin and give Contributors valuable gifts for their Contributions.

P.S. - I'm afraid the spell checker flags "Kuro5hin" as misspelled. This does not reinforce the desired "Kuro5hin" brand and trademark.

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone
[ Parent ]

Oh (5.00 / 1) (#226)
by ennui on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 06:30:54 PM EST

And for 50 points, 1 hour with Matt0ly's mom.

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone
[ Parent ]
If you do that... (none / 0) (#243)
by KnightStalker on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 01:40:12 AM EST

I hope you take ads off stories in the edit queue.

[ Parent ]
terrible (3.85 / 7) (#233)
by raaymoose on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 08:00:19 PM EST

Reading articles on the computer is difficult enough without having a big ugly advert drawing your eyes away from the content. I simply cannot read with it there. As a general rule I don't visit sites that put advertising inline because of this, please reconsider.

agreed (3.50 / 2) (#235)
by spare on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 09:51:56 PM EST


don't fill the front lines of their war; those assholes aren't worth dying for
--ani difranco
[ Parent ]
do you have the same problem with newspapers? (none / 0) (#263)
by Vellmont on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 04:08:22 PM EST

Newspapers and magazines are choc full of advertisements, far more than k5.  I don't know about you, but I find pictures far more distracting than text.  So are you trying to tell me you find it difficult to read a magazine or newspaper because you're constantly attracted to the ads?

Maybe you just need to learn how to filter these ads out.  It's not as if rusty is putting in flash ads that block your view of the text, play audio at inappropriate times, etc.  If that was the case I'd be with you, but a single text ad or two on a page is completely innocuous.

[ Parent ]

no (none / 0) (#266)
by raaymoose on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 07:52:06 PM EST

But most will agree that reading print and reading from a computer monitor are completely different things. Admittedly, I do have problems with adverts in magazines, but I don't buy them due to the fact that's all they seem to be composed of these days, and they're light on content anyways.

Newspapers, they're not so bad since they've seemed to learn that putting advertising inline with the content is bad form. If it's off to the side it's fine, if it's in the middle of the text, I will not buy that newspaper again.

I should not need to learn to filter anything, the filthy advertisers need to learn to be more discrete with placement.

[ Parent ]
Newspapers (none / 0) (#271)
by rusty on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 11:31:08 PM EST

Most newspapers have ads exactly like these story ads. They don't interrupt the text, but they often incur on it from one side or the other.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
maybe it's the browser then (5.00 / 1) (#272)
by raaymoose on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 12:23:06 AM EST

But, the position of the adverts, whilst definately far better on the right side of things, still interrupts the column of text. Few newspapers I'm familiar with actually interrupt their columns, although regularly have them on the side definately.

Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312

[ Parent ]
Interrupts? (none / 0) (#273)
by rusty on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 01:47:57 AM EST

I guess it depends what you mean by interrupts. Granted it's the local island newspaper (I don't have a proper paper at hand) but I found two examples of similar ad placement, like this and this. Sorry for the crappy webcam shots, but it's all I've got. And for comparison, in case it's something really weird with your browser, here's how the ads here are supposed to look.

I think that for newspapers that are pasted up by hand, this kind of column overlap is probably difficult to do, leading to the more traditional rigidly defined columns. But few if any newspapers are still done with paper and glue, and for a  desktop publishing system it's just as easy to overlap columns as not. Seeing as we don't really have columns in a newspaper sense, I don't know if there's any better choice, apart from making a whole separate column just for the ad, which I don't really like very much as an idea.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

I've never seen any like that (none / 0) (#281)
by Delirium on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 07:45:05 PM EST

These ads incur into the area of the text by squishing it in the middle. Say the story is 8" wide at the top, then it becomes 7" wide as the ad takes up 1" of the right margin, then it goes back to 8" again. Like a notch cut out of it. I've never seen newspaper ads like that; most leave the story rectangular, and the worst they do is cut a notch out of a corner (not out of a side)... i.e. make it start at 7" wide and finish up at 8" or vice versa. That'd be akin to putting an ad at, say, the bottom-right of the story. Plus they usually have less text and more images, and what text they do have is in a much differently-sized font, so they're more easily distinguishable from the article in a quick visual scan. In fact, many newspapers won't run ads that have text similar to that in articles.

[ Parent ]
You Can Filter Them (4.20 / 5) (#238)
by FlightSimGuy on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:31:18 PM EST

I personally don't mind these new ads any more than I mind Google's ads. If you do, it's easy enough to get rid of them. The Proxomitron is a personal web proxy that can apply regular expression filters to HTML code before your browser displays it, meaning that you can set it to delete or modify any HTML that you don't want to see. It's commonly used to block banner ads, but it's easy enough to write your own Proxomitron filter to yank the entire table that is this ad. Your browser will think the block of code that generators the ad table was never there.

Here's one possible filter I hacked together that seems to do the trick:

Filter Name: Kill K5 Story Ads
URL Match: *kuro5hin.org/
Byte Limit: 6000
Matching Expression:
<td colspan=2><img SRC="http://www.kuro5hin.org/images/clear.gif" ALT="" WIDTH="15" HEIGHT="10"></td></tr> </table>

Replacement Text:

Alternatively (5.00 / 1) (#241)
by KnightStalker on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 11:57:52 PM EST

if you don't have Proxomitron, you can put the following in your browser's user style sheet:

table[width="140"][align="right"] { display: none!important; }

(It might accidentally kill a few tables from other sites.)

This should work on IE5/Mac, IE 6, Gecko, Opera 7, and Konqueror, at least.

Of course, like I said, I would never do anything like this, ever, cross my heart, and my fingers.

[ Parent ]

Ok, (5.00 / 1) (#242)
by KnightStalker on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 12:08:57 AM EST

here's what I actually did do:

table[width="140"][align="right"] { border: 1px dashed red!important; width: 10px!important; }

table[width="140"][align="right"] table { display: none; }

table[width="140"][align="right"]:hover { width: 140px!important; border-width: 0; }

table[width="140"][align="right"]:hover table { display: block;  }

This allows me to mouse-over the little dashed box and see the god-awful ad as God Rusty intended.

[ Parent ]

Dammit (none / 0) (#265)
by KnightStalker on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 05:39:13 PM EST

It doesn't work in Konqueror. The ad goes away fine but it doesn't come back when I mouse-over it. Anyone test it in IE?

[ Parent ]
placement (none / 0) (#240)
by cronian on Fri Apr 04, 2003 at 10:47:55 PM EST

How about allowing the author of the story to have a few options about where to place the ads with a few options. Also, could the ads be placed in the header or below the voting information?

We perfect it; Congress kills it; They make it; We Import it; It must be anti-Americanism
Your diary a little while back (4.00 / 1) (#244)
by KnightStalker on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 02:13:31 AM EST

Was that this one by any chance?

No (none / 0) (#249)
by rusty on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 04:10:11 AM EST

It was [this one ]. Ha! Fooled you. I don't know what one it was. I can't seem to find it now. But it wasn't that one. That one's all about how stupid it is to plug full-motion video in the middle of a page of text. Y'know, as opposed to putting text in a page of text.

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
So much for being clever (none / 0) (#250)
by rusty on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 04:11:02 AM EST

That was supposed to be a blank link. Now I just look dumb. Remind ae again what the button on the left does?

Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
button on the left? (none / 0) (#256)
by wiredog on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 08:30:16 AM EST

Is that the Big Red One that kills the mains power? Or the one that fires the ejector seat charge under the cat's water dish?

Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

[ Parent ]
I seem to recall (none / 0) (#262)
by aphrael on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 03:07:36 PM EST

I recall talking about it in IRC at one point, too.

[ Parent ]
Yey! (5.00 / 1) (#247)
by hulver on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 03:39:38 AM EST

Much better. Now it's on the right hand side, it dosn't break up the story, I'll be buying some soon.

Wow (none / 0) (#253)
by JAM on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 06:19:02 AM EST

Now that the ads are on the right, I only noticed the ad at the third story I've read today. My brain auto-filter is working much better with them on the right. Good :)
-- Sorry for my engRish (TM)
So many ads.. (4.00 / 5) (#257)
by snugglebunny on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 09:14:36 AM EST

There are already ads in the left column (on pages that have one), ads in the right column (sponsors), ads at the top of every page (buy an ad, premium membership), ads at the bottom of every page (K5 Store), and now there are ads in the stories themselves. Haven't we got enough ads yet? Do we really have to keep spreading them out in new and different places, instead of putting them together in a single spot? Is Kuro5hin in the business of selling eyeballs to the advertisers, the way that traditional media does?

As of right now, the only section of the site which doesn't include ads is the story comments. How long can it be before someone notices and fixes that by putting advertisements into the margins of every comment? Perhaps while they're at it, they'll insert product placements into the ratings, too? '5 Drink Coke'. '4 $$$ Make Money Fast $$$'. '3 Visit my Blog'.

Honestly, with all these ads and sponsors multiplying across the site, I begin to wonder precisely what my subscription is paying for.

exaggeration (5.00 / 2) (#261)
by aphrael on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 03:06:46 PM EST

the only section of the site which doesn't include ads is the story comments

Exaggeration: the diaries don't have ads. :)

[ Parent ]

Ask a silly question... (5.00 / 2) (#287)
by freebird on Mon Apr 07, 2003 at 04:35:16 PM EST

Honestly, with all these ads and sponsors multiplying across the site, I begin to wonder precisely what my subscription is paying for.

Um, it pays for the ability to turn off these ads you're so bothered by, doesn't it?

[ Parent ]

Ask a silly question... (none / 0) (#296)
by snugglebunny on Sat Apr 12, 2003 at 12:43:05 AM EST

Um, it pays for the ability to turn off these ads you're so bothered by, doesn't it?

Strange.. that wasn't the reason I bought my subscription. In fact, I never even started blocking ads until the new inside-the-story ad was introduced.

But since you asked, the ad-blocking feature removes less than 30% of the ads on the frontpage, and less than 20% of the ads on every other page. So if my subscription is only buying the ability to turn off ads, then I want my money back, as I'm not getting what you claim I paid for.

[ Parent ]
Border color, on right (3.00 / 1) (#259)
by obsidian head on Sat Apr 05, 2003 at 09:33:58 AM EST

Now that the border is on the right, a non-blue border color won't be so overboard.  Orange might be fine, or a calmer color like indian red could be sufficient.

Any thoughts?  I'm wanting to think about this in terms of a balance, between not alienating readers and yet having effective ads.  I think the ads right now (blue border, on right, all text inside border) are a little too easy to ignore, but better than before.

My dear rusty god... (2.50 / 2) (#274)
by johwsun on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 01:58:13 AM EST

..They fact that none complained about your advertisement additions, does not make those additions democratically correct, and does not allows you to start adding new advertising features in kuro5hin.

If you want to be democraticaly correct, built a queue with all people requests, implement the first voted request that you are capable to implement, then implement the second one.

You are ignoring the knowledgee tree, my rusty god, and you are going to pay for this.

It doesn't look bad... (none / 0) (#276)
by psidragon on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 01:27:45 PM EST

As long as the ads remain unobtrusive, I don't mind a bit. ;)

One problem: the page looks a little off balance now with the addition of the ads 'cause all the text is on the left side, and all the options and adds are eating up lots of space on the right. I don't know if putting the adds on the other side of the page would help, but I would suggest adding something on the left to draw the readers eye to the content, or somehow changing the way the add appears so it doesn't look like everything is crowded on one side. After all, the articles are what the reader should be focused on first, and the ads second :)
Curiosity is a great motivator. Fear is greater still.
Don't sell yourself short, Rusty (4.55 / 9) (#280)
by wcbell on Sun Apr 06, 2003 at 06:43:22 PM EST

If you were really the world's worst businessman, you would not have possessed the marketing genius it took to bring hundreds of jobless, socialist America-haters together under one roof to whine at a government that (rightly) doesn't care what these miscreants have to say. And to top it all off, you even got some of these cheap ass hippies to pay to subscribe.

I can't say much for your accounting skills but you have done an excellent job meeting the customers' expectations and making them aware of that fact. IMHO you have earned every last penny of your salary, and I wish you the best of luck with your business.

no problem rusty (5.00 / 1) (#285)
by circletimessquare on Mon Apr 07, 2003 at 02:32:03 PM EST

the words from some of the whiners in this thread is more grating to read than the new ads ;-P

perhaps they would like to try to run kuro5hin themselves. you have brought us a great forum. i know some of what the demands on your time and pocketbook such a website brings. that some here would bite the hand that feeds them tells us something about human nature, but is of little more instructive value to you and us than that.

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

These are fine... (5.00 / 2) (#289)
by Farq Q. Fenderson on Tue Apr 08, 2003 at 07:00:01 AM EST

Just please don't put them in the diaries. It would feel really icky to have ads in my diary.

Also, I think it would be nice if subscribers could turn them off for their stories. Not that I have a subscription, but I would like to be able to refer stories to people without having unregistered friends to have an ad stuck in there. Perhaps you could include that in the non-basic (I'm out of it, can't remember what it's called) subscription.

I personally don't mind the ads at all, for my own veiwing (though it would really bug me to see one on my own diary... the diary is personal, and I wouldn't want to be associated, that personally, with an ad.)

So far you've done a wonderful job of staying on the right side of the line.

farq will not be coming back

Subscriber no ads in stories... (none / 0) (#301)
by simul on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 10:07:47 PM EST

Nice idea... incentive to subscribe.

Read this book - first 24 pages are free to browse - it rocks
[ Parent ]
I dont really like them (none / 0) (#299)
by drquick on Sun Apr 13, 2003 at 02:27:49 AM EST

Not not really. But. they are acceptable. Ads on the storypage interfers with the moment I start reading the real stuff.

all in all: K5 needs money this might be a way to get more. Or is it that K5 is turning into profit making? No I don't think so, but this kind of ad changes the image of K5 hugely!

I love them (none / 0) (#300)
by simul on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 10:06:51 PM EST

The fact that you can comment on them makes them much better than other ads - both for the advertiser and the consumer.

Bring them on.  The more ads the merrier.  

Beats losing the site.

Read this book - first 24 pages are free to browse - it rocks

New Story-Page Text Ads | 305 comments (305 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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