Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
K5 Monthly Update, September 2003

By rusty in Site News
Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 12:48:31 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin.org (all tags)
Kuro5hin.org

Well, folks, it's been (almost) exactly one month since our last regular update, and it's time to check in and let everyone know where things stand with the all of the various ongoing K5 projects and issues.

Details inside.


Monthly Update

As promised, and on schedule.

K5 Site Performance

Hasn't been too bad, until today apparently. The new DB box is at the co-lo somewhere, but I still have no answers on where, or why no one can produce it. I'm not terribly pleased with the situation, and have been an increasingly big pain in the ass to everyone I can at Voxel. We also still don't have the new hard drives in our Scoop servers, which is another on my list of things to pester them about.

Captain_Tenille did a great job of keeping things running while I was off in MA, and he has my utmost gratitude.

Updated K5 staff page

Driph has been updating the FAQ, and updated the who's involved with the site page, since that has been requested.

New Admin

Please also welcome new co-admin aphrael, who will be mainly responding to help@kuro5hin.org mail and helping people sort out account problems, as well as doing any story editing that needs doing from time to time.

Site Search

Search is taking me longer than I hoped. However, it's going well. I've got the basic wordlist-creating and vectorizing stuff done, and will get it integrated into the existing search interface next week.

CMF stuff

Lots of CMF news this month. With my wife's help, we got back in touch with our lawyer and got a list of things that need to be done for us to incorporate. These were:

  • Appoint a temporary Board of Directors, get names and contact info for paperwork
  • Write a statement of purpose
  • Write a narrative of organizational activities
The Board is almost in place. I've invited six people to join the initial Board, in addition to me, of which four have so far agreed. They are:
  • Robert West (known on K5 as aphrael), who has been very helpful in motivating me and also put a lot of work into helping edit the documents below.
  • Peter Whysall, everyone's favorite Nazi admin and a great believer in the CMF's goals.
  • Jed Miller, who I've come to know through an online deliberation group. Jed is web editor for The New York Times Institutes for Journalists, a project of The NYT Company Foundation, and has worked on online communities with AOL, audible.com, and the New York Times. He is also is director of collaboration and community at the New York non-profit Web Lab, which oversaw small group dialogues with Manhattan residents about the reconstruction after after 9/11. He's highly qualified. :-)
  • Matt Haughey, who founded Metafilter and works for Creative Commons. Matt understands as well as anyone what kind of support collaborative media needs. He also has a mysterious genius for getting media attention without actually looking for it. No non-profit should lack someone with that talent.
Update [2003-9-22 10:21:41 by rusty]: I didn't mean to be mysterious about the other two invitees, I just thought I should wait until I had heard from them. Further comment has convinced me otherwise, and they are:
  • Scott Reents, who co-founded e-thepeople.org, a non-profit collaborative discussion forum about democracy, and who was on the previous Board as well. Scott has since responded and will be joining the Board again.
  • Robin Bandy, K5's Arkady, who runs a non-profit computer networking business based in Oakland, CA. He has already been a great help in bringing up key questions of how the projects will be managed, and I hope he will agree to join us again.
Another question was why Karsten wasn't re-invited to be on this Board. Karsten was on the first Board because he knew a lot about how K5 worked, and I saw him as kind of a K5 representative. I haven't heard from him much since then, and he doesn't seen to be around here very often, so I thought aphrael might be a better choice this time. That said, I now return you to the original text...

This Board is basically a bootstrap operation, which needs to exist to adopt the bylaws, which actually specify how Directors are elected and appointed. So this Board votes to adopt the bylaws, and then after the first Board election will accept the results. It is largely an advisory body at this point, but I hope that some or all of them will continue on to the first properly constituted Board, as they all have a lot to add.

There are two more invitees pending, and I hope they get back to me soon so we can get going. Hint, hint, if they're reading. No, not you Tex. ;-)

Additionally, several people sweated over the statement of purpose and the narrative on IRC this week, including janra, aphrael, MattOly, me, peter, Captain_Tenille, and MostlyHarmless. They collectively reviewed literally every damn word in the purpose statement, and as a result, I think it finally actually expresses what I think the CMF is all about. It is, of necessity, pretty concise. Another thing we all want is to write an "Expanded statement of prupose" to get into some of the reasoning behind what are basically just axioms here. But this part is needed for us to incorporate, so here it is:

Collaborative Media Foundation Statement of Purpose

We believe that network-based tools can now enable any number of people to communicate and collaborate, unhindered by geographic and cultural barriers. We also believe that noncommercial media is essential to a free and informed society. Therefore, we have established the Collaborative Media Foundation to foster collaborative projects that use these tools to multiply and extend the reach of noncommercial media.

Additionally, the tax exemption paperwork will require a narrative of the activities the CMF will engage in. I have to run the following by the lawyer to make sure it is what we need, but here is what we came up with:

Narrative of Activities

The Collaborative Media Foundation (CMF) will provide technical, financial, and legal assistance to selected projects which share the CMF ideals and which meet the criteria set by the CMF board. Each member project will require individualized support and oversight, so the CMF board will work with each project to develop an operation and oversight plan. The plan will specify project goals and standards, operating methods, periodic review procedures,  and provisions for ending or spinning off the project if necessary. The CMF may also engage in any other activities useful to the development and promotion of collaborative media.

So that's the news from here. Next month's update better damn well include the words "I hope you're all enjoying the new DB server," or there will be trouble.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Related Links
o Scoop
o Kuro5hin
o our last regular update
o who's involved with the site
o aphrael
o Metafilter
o Creative Commons
o e-thepeopl e.org
o the bylaws
o Also by rusty


Display: Sort:
K5 Monthly Update, September 2003 | 156 comments (156 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
thanks rusty ;-) (nt) (3.00 / 13) (#1)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 12:50:18 PM EST



The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Yay! (4.10 / 10) (#2)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 12:51:44 PM EST

I love being thrown a bone.


___
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weekend de ski. Personally, I pref
Why wasn't I invited to the CMF? [nt] (3.25 / 8) (#3)
by Stick on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 12:51:54 PM EST




---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
Everyone's invited (4.37 / 8) (#4)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 12:55:33 PM EST

When we're incorporated, membership will be open to all. Also, you're welcome and encouraged to run for the elected Board if you want to be on it. This Board basically just needs to be people who have helped with the development of the organization or who have significant experience in the field, and with whom I can easily communicate.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
I was in a field once (3.50 / 10) (#5)
by Stick on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 12:57:13 PM EST

There were some cows that went moo. Does this qualify me?


---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
[ Parent ]
sure (4.12 / 8) (#12)
by Dirty Sanchez on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:04:07 PM EST

but only if you fathered the cows children.

[ Parent ]
No , but the Cows do. /nt (4.00 / 7) (#18)
by Soviet Russian on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:07:43 PM EST



[ Parent ]
With whom *you* can communicate? (3.25 / 4) (#100)
by dipierro on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 12:16:36 AM EST

Don't forget rusty, you're not guaranteed a seat on the board yourself. I mean, yeah, we all know you're going to be on it, but still... (chickens, hatched, counting).

[ Parent ]
*This* Board (5.00 / 2) (#135)
by rusty on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 10:52:05 AM EST

Meaning "the temporary Board currently appointed." I am on this Board, and it was appointed for those reasons. I make no claims about the first proper Board.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
the slowness (4.20 / 15) (#6)
by Dirty Sanchez on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 12:57:16 PM EST

fix the slowness

See (4.14 / 7) (#9)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:01:18 PM EST

sections about DB server and search. These are the two big impediments to better performance. I'm doing the best I can.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
wouldn't it (4.71 / 7) (#11)
by Dirty Sanchez on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:03:08 PM EST

be better to remove search altogether until it gets resonable?

[ Parent ]
If I have to (4.00 / 6) (#16)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:07:05 PM EST

I hate to do that though. As bad as it is, at least it's something, and most of the time it's ok. Shouldn't be too much longer, anyway.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
No, *I* am doing the best *I* can, punk. [n/t] (3.00 / 4) (#98)
by the mod perl server on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 11:42:15 PM EST



[ Parent ]
why are you dirty sanchez? (2.33 / 3) (#49)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 04:00:51 PM EST

why not donkey punch?

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
Hello (4.91 / 12) (#7)
by Abominable Abitur on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 12:57:38 PM EST

Could you give me an example of a project the CMF would consider?

"Terrorism is only a viable "political activist" method for marginalized nutjobs, bottom line. The backlash that it causes makes it intractable for any reasonable ideology. Which is why you don't generally see wild athiest suicide bombers in america's streets." - lonelyhobo
For example (5.00 / 9) (#14)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:04:33 PM EST

K5 obviously fits the mission, as does MeFi. The way it'll work is there will be an application on the CMF site, which will ask specific questions about what the project is, how it is expected to operate and what kind of resources it'll require, and how it fits with the goals of the CMF. We'll consider any project that can fill out the application.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Question: (4.83 / 12) (#15)
by Michael Moore on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:06:42 PM EST

Does the CMF enforce a moral agenda on its projects?

--
"My life was more improved by a single use of [ecstasy] than someone's life is made worse by becoming a heroin addict." -- aphrael
[ Parent ]
What do you mean? [nt] (4.00 / 7) (#17)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:07:35 PM EST



____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Well (5.00 / 11) (#19)
by Michael Moore on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:12:46 PM EST

Would it reject 'sponsorship' (or whatever you want to call it) of a project because it morally objected to the goal or purpose, even if it was a well-executed design in terms of collaborative media. Obviously anything which exists to endorse a controversial political issue (white power, republicanism, etc.) could fall into this category.

--
"My life was more improved by a single use of [ecstasy] than someone's life is made worse by becoming a heroin addict." -- aphrael
[ Parent ]
That's a good question. (4.66 / 6) (#26)
by aphrael on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:28:10 PM EST

That's a good question, and probably one you should ask everyone running for a position on the permanent board. There's no such limitation in the bylaws, but ultimately it's going to be the board's call whether or not to support a particular project. I would expect there to be well-designed and published guidelines for such things, but the guidelines don't exist as yet, and it's not really appropriate for the provisional board to design them; our job is to adopt the bylaws and conduct the election of the permanent board.

If you want to know what I would consider when adopting a project - and with the caveat that I speak for myself, not the CMF board - political controversy would not be a bar for me, as long as it were well-executed collaborative media. But at the same time, I would have problems with something that was intended to be downright hateful - we want to use collaborative media to bring people together, not to drive wedges between them, and I would view proposals of projects that pursue the aim of driving people apart to be inconsistent with the CMF's purpose.

[ Parent ]

Thorny issue (4.40 / 10) (#29)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:38:40 PM EST

There are some lines we cannot, due to laws governing 501(c)(3) organizations, cross. We can't, for example, advocate for political candidates. We can sponsor and support open discussion in which individuals may advocate candidates. But the organization itself cannot advocate.

Beyond that, I think it's an issue for the Board to determine. It is an excellent question, and one that will have to be dealt with. Myself, I wouldn't vote for any project which had as a primary factor any kind of inherent discriminatory or hateful purpose. I would agree with aphrael that my interpretation of the statement of purpose would be that collaboration is intended to bring peope together, and a project that did not have that intent was not suitable.

I can imagine projects with viewpoints which I would not politically agree with, but I might personally vote to approve. I think it will, many times, come down to how the Board sees a project fitting into the mission of the CMF.

I will also seek out specifics on what we are legally allowed to do, for everyone's information.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

World According To (5.00 / 3) (#112)
by ennui on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 11:08:28 AM EST

You're a fascinating read. It seems like you think you and your cohorts can just dole out money (where'd it come from, by the way?) to any site you all happen to like. Um, no.

First of all, your organization needs a membership, and obviously, they pay for membership. You can have nonpaying members but you have to be careful with the scheme you're going with, generally organizations with nonpaying members accept nonpaying members because they're all expected to volunteer for some worthwhile cause. Let's assume there's no nonpaying members, everybody pays. You can offer services and benefits that are equally available to all members and benefit them equally. You, on a practical level, cannot refuse membership to anyone the way you're doing things. You may or may not choose to accept members as individuals or corporate entities or both, but you can't accept a member with undue influence of a member entity and give each an equal vote, so it's easier, probably, to limit membership to individuals (also, many websites you'd be interested in are probably organized as sole propritorships if anything)

Now, as to nonmember, non-affiliated entities, probably websites, you could in theory have a grant program, and it's probably fair that some sort of committee could administrate it. You cannot give grants to members or individuals or entities closely related to members. There may be an exception where if it's approved by a majority of members and for a specific purpose you could, but in general, you can't. There may be exceptional cases such as scholarships that are decided without knowledge of if the potential awardee is affiliated in any way with the organization. You sure as hell can't be on the board of a not-for-profit and go shelling out the not-for-profit's funds to yourself or entities you control.

Make sure you know what kind of monster you're building here, Herr Frankenstein. It sounds like not only do you not know what "voting for a project" even means, but it also sounds like you're willing to discriminate based on your own morality and political views without regard to the "collaborative" nature of projects. You're also willing to hide behind "the board's" decisions. As long as they're your appointees, I'd say your the-collective-decided affirmation of your prejudices rings pretty hollow. More petty if relatively benign dictatorship like k5's "editors," banana republicanism, "community" defined as "rusty's buddies" and "collaboration" defined as "chatting with rusty's buddies via IM and IRC." Oh, and special advice and council from rusty's wife. Viva el Presidente!

Of course, if things boil down to a "pay myself for running k5 and/or the cmf" scheme this smells like (the bylaws lacking a "Board members shall not inure" clause is pretty telling), it matters not anyway, there's no way it can fly legally.

Why do I get the feeling this sudden burst of CMF energy and enthusiasm is due to a certain $30k or so collected over a year ago having run out? Why do I smell a "Kuro5hin Pledge Drive/Fundraiser/Subscription Begathon II" hiding in the wings?

It's not too late to turn back.

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone
[ Parent ]

Collective affirmation (5.00 / 2) (#116)
by aphrael on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 05:24:09 PM EST

I would think an important quality in any board member would be the ability to tell any other member to shove it when they're wrong, and then back up that demand with an explanation of *why* they're wrong. :) I have no problem doing that to Rusty or anyone else, except possibly my boyfriend's mother.

[ Parent ]
Hah! (4.80 / 5) (#27)
by aphrael on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:30:24 PM EST

So it wasn't an april fools' joke after all.

[ Parent ]
Question. (5.00 / 4) (#60)
by RobotSlave on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 05:52:25 PM EST

This comment of yours, together with Matt Haughey's seat on the provisional board, gives the strong impression that Metafilter will be put under the auspices of the CMF together with K5 when the non-profit is incorporated.

Is this, in fact, the case?

[ Parent ]

This is the worst diary I've ever read. (3.92 / 14) (#8)
by Michael Moore on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:01:03 PM EST

You should ask anonimouse for some tips regarding actually getting a readership going with these things.

--
"My life was more improved by a single use of [ecstasy] than someone's life is made worse by becoming a heroin addict." -- aphrael
-1 too many site news updates ;) (2.70 / 10) (#10)
by terpy on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:01:28 PM EST

Thanks!

----
"I'm not sure I'm down with having Hitler on my coffee mug, but whatever, it was free." -MohammedNiyalSayeed

Perhaps a software change is necessary (4.37 / 16) (#13)
by A Proud American on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:04:16 PM EST

I'm hearing increasingly good things about Linux.  Perhaps it's time we gave that a try?

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


In future site news monthly updates (3.91 / 24) (#20)
by Tex Bigballs on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:13:01 PM EST

I would like a chance to add the trolls' side of things, just like the opposing party does after the president's state of the union address.

If Peter Whysall is any indication of "the CMF vision" then I think I speak for everyone here when I say you can take your CMF, shine it up real nice, turn it sideways, and stick it up your roody poo candyass.

Janra should not even be considered for a position of any type of authority, especially after modbombing my account several months ago. That and also she's female and they tend to make things unnecessarily complicated.

Finally, I am also very discouraged by rusty's repeated failure to communicate with the K5 userbase and answer the hard questions, most recently with the ongoing Peniz Q scandal.


tex, we need to make a pact (4.00 / 5) (#82)
by burger king on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:34:47 PM EST

like "if peter whysall or janra are placed on the board, i will leave k5 forever."

---
Vote Libertarian in 2004.
[ Parent ]

I'm not too sure that's a very good ultimatum [nt] (5.00 / 4) (#86)
by Tex Bigballs on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:49:38 PM EST



[ Parent ]
how about (4.00 / 5) (#87)
by burger king on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:53:08 PM EST

"if peter whysall and jarna are placed on the board, we will abandon these accounts and assume new, more hostile identities."

---
Vote Libertarian in 2004.
[ Parent ]

Based on how work with the CMF is going (4.00 / 5) (#89)
by Tex Bigballs on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:58:43 PM EST

The only worry I have is that maybe my grandchildren will have their diaries and comments deleted by whysall's grandchildren.

And then that's only if one day he decided to pound a vagina instead of the usual manass.

[ Parent ]

Manass? (4.00 / 4) (#96)
by Grape Smuggler on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 10:57:44 PM EST

The correct term is "manpussy", although in whysall's case, "boytwat" is also accepted.

By reading this message you've unwittingly exposed yourself to my powerful, moth-like pheremones.
[ Parent ]

I prefer 'mangina' [n/t] (4.20 / 5) (#99)
by the mod perl server on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 11:46:31 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Ugh (none / 0) (#141)
by Mitheral on Tue Sep 23, 2003 at 02:56:08 PM EST

Well that was just too enlightening

[ Parent ]
We need to harness troll power (4.53 / 13) (#21)
by A Proud American on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:16:23 PM EST

Just think of all the cool stuff K5'd have if we could let some of the rebel trolls (Tex, rkz, rmg, localroger, peniz, etc.) become scavengers for backend hardware.

They could rumage through the dumpsters of multinational corporations and ship RAM, hard drives, etc. over to the K5 servers c/o the Voxel folks.

Trolls, are you in?  Perhaps one free month of subscription could be given to each troll for each piece of hardware they find and donate.

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


Yeah (4.83 / 12) (#23)
by Michael Moore on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:21:02 PM EST

Then we can have a detective competition where K5 tries to find out which troll shipped the $5 network card which was covered in anthrax.

--
"My life was more improved by a single use of [ecstasy] than someone's life is made worse by becoming a heroin addict." -- aphrael
[ Parent ]
That would be me, and furthermore (4.77 / 9) (#24)
by omghax on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:23:45 PM EST

it's already inside the server, primed to explode and spew deadly poison all over rusty. It will do so whenever someone posts a diary with a special code word in the title.

[ Parent ]
All of them? <nt> (5.00 / 2) (#61)
by godix on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 05:55:11 PM EST



I don't understand spending all that money for a fancy shot ... when pregnancy ain't nothing that a good coathanger or a pair of steel toed boots can't fix<
[ Parent ]
Pay for a slashdot subscription and im in. (4.42 / 7) (#42)
by rkz10 on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:51:01 PM EST

If rusty pays for a slashdot subscription for me or gives Taco a rim-job in exchange for one I will happily send you hardware.

I can steal alot of old crap from work... they want to throw it away becase it takes up too much space so they wont even care.

How to get a Date
[ Parent ]

how come i didn't make your troll list? (4.28 / 7) (#48)
by circletimessquare on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 04:00:16 PM EST

i'm deeply insulted

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]
dude, i am so in. (4.00 / 4) (#51)
by rmg on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 04:18:08 PM EST

i am also considering a rewrite of scoop in fortran. or possibly lisp. or possibly smalltalk. or possibly ocaml.

any takers?

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks
[ Parent ]

yeah (3.75 / 4) (#81)
by burger king on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:33:11 PM EST

let's write it in applescript.

---
Vote Libertarian in 2004.
[ Parent ]

right on. (2.33 / 3) (#93)
by rmg on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 10:22:59 PM EST

is there an apache mod for that?

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks
[ Parent ]

when you get done.. (1.00 / 1) (#107)
by Suppafly on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 03:29:07 AM EST

When you guys get done with that project, you can ship me any of the remaining hardware..
---
Playstation Sucks.
[ Parent ]
Hi :::peniz:::V (3.81 / 11) (#22)
by peniz V on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:19:21 PM EST

Reading about the process to properly incorporate the CMF is like watching a team of Liberal Arts Majors trying to construct a cradle; except they do surprisingly well and are pleased, until they realize the baby they built it for has the word "chip" etched on his shoulder, and "shit for " etched on his forehead.

If Kuro5hin needs hardware (3.75 / 4) (#25)
by omghax on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:26:04 PM EST

I might be able to accomodate. In the near future I'll have spare equipment for a barebones server.

Welll done. (4.27 / 11) (#28)
by ennui on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:33:42 PM EST

Did you cut & paste the "CMF bootstrapping" update from like a year ago? Also, good job on getting buy-in from the "community" that this CMF thing is supposed to benefit, I guess "community" defined as #scoop regulars. Thank goodness for this sudden burst of energy, I shudder to think what will befall k5 and metafilter should there not be a nonprofit Foundation supporting it (in addition to donated bandwidth, equipment, and ad revenue), and sincerely that funds that are currently being donated to nonprofits to support AIDS research, fight poverity, and cliche of cliches 'cure cancer' will be donated instead to this CMF, to support k5 and metafilter and CMF "pay to the order of rusty" administrative costs.

Why not just declare kuro5hin a religion instead? Less legal hassle, same tax benefits, and you can make a wonderful, honest living marrying people and providing Absolution to subscribers. Ordain your Cabal, sell Reverend Rusty teeshirts, Holy Relic monocles and so forth. Give it some thought; it makes much more sense than this CMF stuff you've been stalling on for a year.

It's more dignified to just say 'I couldn't pull it off' than to phone it in for another 12 months.

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone

I call the title of "Pontifex Maximus" (4.25 / 8) (#30)
by Captain_Tenille on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:43:31 PM EST


----
/* You are not expected to understand this. */

Man Vs. Nature: The Road to Victory!
[ Parent ]

been playin' (3.00 / 2) (#37)
by vivelame on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:30:52 PM EST

Ars Magica? (wondering :-) )

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
[ Parent ]
Nope. (3.00 / 2) (#41)
by Captain_Tenille on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:48:03 PM EST

Just reading an awful lot of books about Rome recently.
----
/* You are not expected to understand this. */

Man Vs. Nature: The Road to Victory!
[ Parent ]

Populusque Kuro5hinus (3.00 / 2) (#68)
by mami on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:25:49 PM EST

Are you my senator? Do I belong to the Kuro5hinus populus. Did I ever get to vote you in?

[ Parent ]
People didn't get to vote for the senate. n/t (2.50 / 2) (#73)
by Captain_Tenille on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:41:04 PM EST


----
/* You are not expected to understand this. */

Man Vs. Nature: The Road to Victory!
[ Parent ]

That's why you love the Senate so much, I see (nt) (3.00 / 2) (#75)
by mami on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 07:15:17 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Hey (4.12 / 8) (#31)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 01:49:21 PM EST

You gotta give Tex his 40 of haterade back.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Hey Rusty (5.00 / 2) (#40)
by The Terrorists on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:47:00 PM EST

You know we wanted to be involved in this stuff. For no money or recognition or anything. We liked the idea and we wanted to be involved, and here you are doing lots of interesting and important stuff without letting anybody except a "cabal" know. Care to explain your reasons why? I'm a little saddened by it.

Watch your mouth, pigfucker. -- Rusty Foster
[ Parent ]

Please (5.00 / 5) (#43)
by ennui on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:54:22 PM EST

Next you'll complain that every personal attack on you is a personal attack. If you were on the sidelines you'd probably have similar opinions and make similar comments. You're too quick to dismiss criticizm particularly from quarters you can dismiss with convenient labels, your memory is way too short1, and you're not your own harshest critic, as perhaps you should be. If I were you, if I had made the statements and promises you made over a year ago after the "fundraiser," there would be an active CMF today (it's not the Herculean effort you seem to be making it out to be, you can have a going, official, contributions-may-qualify-for- deduction, IRS-approved not-for-profit concern within 120 days of filing your 1023, perhaps if you had actively solicited help and participation from k5 users who had actually DONE THAT at some point in their lives instead of going through your buddies list to find your initial CMF members like you were putting together a Friday-night poker game...but I digress) or long ago if I had failed or lost interest I would have said so and dealt with the consequences.

You admitted in the last "update" that you had dropped the ball, and managed to drop what little bit of the ball was left AGAIN on August 292. You already went through this "bootstrapping the CMF" phase in a similarly halfassed fashion. If you hadn't, this "update" wouldn't be providing fodder for those whom you think just imbibe 'hateraide' or whatever perseveration you're trying to use lately, and various rustyophiles would be defending your inactivity and giving you the benefit of the doubt as they did for months after the fundraiser. Aren't you, yourself sick of it at this point? How many more times are you going to "bootstrap" this? When are you going to stop paying lip service to "community" and "collaboration" and involve the Community and foster Collaboration?

My money's on never.


1. One of my favorite examples is where you saw fit to do this diary, I assume forgetting your own grasping at a certain "digital identity section" straw or out of touch with irony.
2. "Everyone up to and including my wife has been unhappy with me...about my sluggishness on the CMF...I have no good excuse, only bad ones...I will collect those things up and post them Friday, whether the damn things are done or not. If they're not, the more fool I will look." -rusty "For 'tis the sport to have the enginer hoist with his owne petar" -Hamlet

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone
[ Parent ]

You're four for eleven, and two more answers. (2.66 / 6) (#46)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 03:45:13 PM EST

Next you'll complain that every personal attack on you is a personal attack.

How could it not be?

If you were on the sidelines you'd probably have similar opinions and make similar comments.

Probably.

You're too quick to dismiss criticizm particularly from quarters you can dismiss with convenient labels

You know what I dismiss and what I don't?

your memory is way too short

True. But not in the way you think.

One of my favorite examples is where you saw fit to do this diary, I assume forgetting your own grasping at a certain "digital identity section" straw or out of touch with irony.

Incorrect, and a criticism unworthy of you.

and you're not your own harshest critic, as perhaps you should be

Incorrect, and why do you think you know me? You don't.

If I were you, if I had made the statements and promises you made over a year ago after the "fundraiser," there would be an active CMF today

Maybe so. You'd be a better person than me, and you'd be in good company.

perhaps if you had actively solicited help and participation from k5 users who had actually DONE THAT at some point in their lives

Assuming one of the invitees who hasn't responded yet agrees, we will have two Board members who have done that. How many do you think we need?

or long ago if I had failed or lost interest I would have said so and dealt with the consequences.

I have done neither.

You admitted in the last "update" that you had dropped the ball, and managed to drop what little bit of the ball was left AGAIN on August 29.

I did. And admit it again. The documents promised in August are above, if you'd like to see them. They were harder than I thought, and I'm glad I had help.

You already went through this "bootstrapping the CMF" phase in a similarly halfassed fashion.

No, I went through it in a much more halfassed fashion.

Aren't you, yourself sick of it at this point?

Yes.

How many more times are you going to "bootstrap" this?

Until it's done.

When are you going to stop paying lip service to "community" and "collaboration" and involve the Community and foster Collaboration?

Already have.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Disagree (5.00 / 7) (#57)
by ennui on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 05:14:25 PM EST

Posting "site news" from your administrator/account is not involving the community. You post, we read. Telling people what you're doing is not collaboration. Involving would be closer to "I'd like to have Peter on the board. Here's why. Here's a link to a poll where you can vote yes or no" with a poll where people can vote yes or no. If your response is "that wouldn't work" or "I don't want to do that" it's because you're not being true to one or more of your visions that's supposed to be why we're supposed to contribute to k5, and why this CMF is a good idea. Hell, you're even keeping some of the new "bootstrap" board members you want SECRET! And somehow, now it's more people when the "bootstrap" board is just there to approve the by-laws and organize an election for the permanent board according to your previous reason for appointing a bootstrap board! It looks to me similar to what you've done with k5 "editorship," namely appointed a bunch more people so you get to be even less involved.

"Being your own harshest critic" isn't about putting yourself down and admitting your shortcomings, it's about taking ownership of failure and firing yourself when conditions merit. It's about being appropriately introspective and realizing your motivations for doing things, it's about believing in the product when you're selling your ideas enough to follow through. You've burnt lots of faith and confidence we had, you've fulfilled and in some cases exceeded the pessimists' low expectations.

If I had the time, I would volunteer to incorporate this CMF, but I would be rejected, because as you've admitted you can't see a K5 or CMF existing without you. I believe in self-governing online communities, and if there hasn't been one that worked yet it doesn't mean there will never be one. I believe in a CMF, because ultimately the so-called 'blog[o]sphere' and the more formal structures like k5 and indy news sites will grow in political and economic importance, as we already see foreshadowing of the 'blog[o]sphere' being co-opted by commercial interests and 'indy media' becoming agenda-based and biased regurgitation of what's already reported by the BBC, AP and Reuters. Sites like metafilter and friendster and k5 are the proof of concept on a small scale and on different axis of a number of online phenomenon that barely have terms to describe them yet, and it's by pooling resources and bringing these "new media" experiments (for want of better terms) together, with inclusive and democratic processes, the phenomenon will grow, and most importantly fend off co-option by commercial interest and have the strength to stave off political opposition. As we saw in California, like-minded people and technology are extremely powerful politically. The existing structures will catch on, and "this," whatever "this" is or will become, will suffer if "we," whoever "we" are and will be aren't prepared.

So, it's not about missing dates, or "new" by-laws that are dated November, 2002, or the rather insular and abortive incubation process this nonprofit of yours is going through. My speculation is those and other issues are symptoms of something that's much deeper and should be addressed before there's another CMF go-round.

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone
[ Parent ]

Hey (none / 0) (#134)
by rusty on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 09:58:51 AM EST

I would like to talk to you some more, but this trading-essays format is hampering understanding, I think. Would you email, or pop by #scoop sometime and ping me?

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Splendid idea (5.00 / 1) (#53)
by bugmaster on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 04:27:13 PM EST

Count me in... Wait. There arent's going to be any fasting, not-coveting, or weird electricity usage restrictions, are there ? Because then, count me out :-)
>|<*:=
[ Parent ]
re: k5 faq (4.28 / 7) (#32)
by weegie on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:02:00 PM EST

It's good that driph is updating it. It was pretty outdated. Something needs to be added about the edit queue, because the whole process of guiding a story from submitting to editing to voting is far from obvious, and is probably quite scary for new users. Some guidelines about resubmitting would be good, too (when to and when not to).

I am also impressed that you are including some information about the admins. That's much friendlier. Now if you could just tell us who's in the real cabal, not the sham, decoy cabal, I'd be even happier.

--
The Black race ... is a great race. Bred in the harsh climate of Africa and forged in the furnace of adversity, the Black race is the one responsible for all of the greatest achievements attributed to Mankind.

Edit queue (4.00 / 7) (#33)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:06:10 PM EST

Yes, Driph's been pestering us for info on how the edit queue actually works to fix that part. It'll get there.

And as for the real cabal, tink5c.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

whoa (4.57 / 7) (#34)
by tps12 on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:10:20 PM EST

Jed is web editor for The New York Times Institutes for Journalists, a project of The NYT Company Foundation, and has worked on online communities with AOL, audible.com, and the New York Times...He's highly qualified. :-)
Qualified, maybe. But NYT? AOL? Can you say, "establishment"?

his name is jeb (3.75 / 4) (#79)
by burger king on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:20:39 PM EST

and he is responsible for AOL's communities.

in short, this will become another one of his AOL communities.

---
Vote Libertarian in 2004.
[ Parent ]

Establishment is pretty relative (5.00 / 2) (#138)
by rusty on Tue Sep 23, 2003 at 12:42:09 AM EST

Jed works on online community type things. In his field, even the establishment is groping their way along like the rest of us. What he's done is worked with WebLab on their Small Group Dialogues software, which was used, for instance, when the LMDC wanted to get input from many Manhattan residents on what they thought should be done with the World Trade Center site. They set up a dialogue where residents could sign up and when the software had enough people it would create small groups of them to talk about it. He's also worked on creating and managing online community for the Times and AOL.

I thought he'd be a good person to involve because I think he comes at this stuff from a different angle than most people I know. For one thing, he has worked in the "establishment," as opposed to us counter-culture radicals (;-)), so he's seen how this stuff plays in boardrooms and with suits who haven't already drank the kool-aid. He's also worked on colaborative projects that are pretty unlike the standard blog format we tend to think of, like the SGD stuff. Aiming for a couple dozen people, at most, talking about some specific issue and trying to acheive consensus is a pretty different thing than what we do here.

And yes, this Board doesn't mean much in the scheme of things. I don't know if he'll be interested beyond this. But I figured that while I have to pick a few people to involve, I'd like to poke him and say "Hey, you might want to be involved here," so this seemed like a good way to do it.

And aside from the paper Jed, I've spent some time with him working on stuff and he's a very smart guy, who I think will be able to help.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Performance (3.50 / 12) (#35)
by hulver on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:26:02 PM EST

Just today?

You're having a laugh mate.

Performance had been absymal for weeks. I've been unable to access the site multiple times, and I'm not the only one.

Hopefully this new DB box will fix that.

--
HuSi!

Go back to your own site (4.58 / 12) (#36)
by Tex Bigballs on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:30:40 PM EST

you turncoat scoundrel. Why do we have to put up with you and your HuSi press gangs running around on here trying to force K5ers to join your godless den of faggotry.?

[ Parent ]
Oh my. (4.75 / 4) (#108)
by gazbo on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 08:20:21 AM EST

Google's gonna love that link.

-----
Topless, revealing, nude pics and vids of Zora Suleman! Upskirt and down blouse! Cleavage!
Hardcore ZORA SULEMAN pics!

[ Parent ]

You wait just one minute here, okay? (4.20 / 5) (#38)
by soyuz on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:33:20 PM EST

Is Peter Whysall, a Briton, really the best choice for a European representative? When I think of European culture, I don't think of Britain, and apparently, neither does the UK; it's barely a member of the European Union. I think someone from a more European country, like France or the Netherlands, would be a better choice.



On simple grounds of language... (3.00 / 2) (#44)
by meaningless pseudonym on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 03:02:20 PM EST

I'll bet there's more Brits here than the rest of Europe combined. These are English language boards, after all.


[ Parent ]
please (4.00 / 3) (#47)
by TurboThy on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 03:55:26 PM EST

And, as we all know, almost any European doesn't speak any English.
__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
Um. (5.00 / 2) (#54)
by RobotSlave on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 04:32:47 PM EST

Look, I know that a lot of Europeans have taken years of English courses in school, but as your post amply demonstrates, that doesn't mean they speak English well.

The occasional European boasting you hear about speaking better English than, say, Americans, is grossly misleading— if you compare the class of Europeans who learn English to their well-educated counterparts in the US, you'll find the Americans have a much better command of the language.

With that said, the educated European's English is undoubtable better than the educated American's German or Dutch or French, etc (with a possible exception for Spanish).

[ Parent ]

Is a double negative a negative to you? (1.00 / 1) (#62)
by mami on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 05:59:19 PM EST

"almost any European doesn't speak any English" means to me that almost every European does speak English, or is a double negative a negative in your mind? Or is my English as a European so bad that I really don't understand it correctly?

Don't tell me that "almost any American can't multiply two negatives (and can't get something positive). With all this deficit, that is always so positive for the adminstration that causes it, one would think Americans would be masters in adding and multiplying two negatives.  

[ Parent ]

I rest my case. (5.00 / 1) (#63)
by RobotSlave on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:02:50 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Without giving me closure ? (3.66 / 3) (#65)
by mami on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:17:55 PM EST

I need to know, if I was wrong or right. Are you angry at my comment?

If I sound a bit too chatty today, that's because I am a victim of the hurricane, forced to two days off work without experiencing any damage other than that I lost my TV signal. So, I have too much time at hand and am in a mood to make silly remarks.

[ Parent ]

Way off the mark. (5.00 / 1) (#74)
by RobotSlave on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:49:31 PM EST

"almost any European doesn't speak any English" isn't wrong because it's (arguably) a double negative. It's wrong because it comprises an unintelligibly ambiguous construction, even after one makes allowances for its inelegance, and for the rather dubious grammar employed.

The quoted text is not up to the task of conveying the sort of sarcasm I suspect was intended on the part of the poster, though it does of course bear a certain unintentional irony.

The fact that you, "as a European," did not catch any of these nuances bolstered my initial argument; thus my somewhat terse reply.

[ Parent ]

Well on mark (3.66 / 3) (#76)
by mami on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 07:38:04 PM EST

if you look at the thread in its entirety, I can only conclude that you argued for an American or English native speaker from Britain, because you answered to TurboThy, who rejected with a sarcastic remark to "meaningless pseudonym's" comment, who tried to explain that Europeans from continental Europe were excluded on simple grounds of language.

So, I guess, your remark was in support of it, making sophistcated remarks about our bad English and "unintelligibly ambiguous constructions" as the basis for your view point that Europeans just can't handle the language well enough to be on the board. Your comment was so convincing that it looked like you had missed the double negative.

I think my question and comment was very well on mark. Got it? Gotcha...

[ Parent ]

But... (5.00 / 1) (#77)
by RobotSlave on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 07:52:48 PM EST

...what do you think as a female? I'm frankly a bit shocked you haven't told me, already.

[ Parent ]
Oh, I didn't ? Then you definitely (3.00 / 2) (#92)
by mami on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 09:27:30 PM EST

have English reading comprehension difficulties.

Ok, here it is, as a female I think you are a male lacking logic, which is a suprise after all.

But I am in agreement with you to end this thread. That's a logic conclusion resulting from previous comments.

[ Parent ]

My Voice (1.00 / 1) (#97)
by soyuz on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 11:10:56 PM EST

I think mami should be the European representative. She's clearly a Europe's European.

[ Parent ]
Who do you represent? (1.00 / 1) (#105)
by TurboThy on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 03:07:01 AM EST

Just curious: Are you Russian, or just infatuated with the idea of the Workers Ideal State? ;o)
__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
Workers Ideal State? (none / 0) (#121)
by tkatchev on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 09:52:47 AM EST

Would that be the U.S. or the E.U.?

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

EU, hopefully [n/t] (none / 0) (#145)
by TurboThy on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 05:23:11 AM EST


__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
Ah. (3.00 / 2) (#106)
by TurboThy on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 03:22:45 AM EST

...the class of Europeans who learn English
i.e. 95% of my country's population.

Okay, I admit I have a problem with the finer nuances of any/anybody/anyone. My point was that plenty of Europeans of the non-anglophone variety use English everyday (I wrote my bachelor's thesis in it, and all my courses at uni are taught in English), and I don't see what Mr. Whysall's (undoubtedly superior) English-speaking capabilities have to do with his suitability as an admin. I mean, almost anybody on these boards speak English to such an extent that they can be easily understood. Point in case: You understood my post, even though you found it badly constructed.
__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
95 percent of Danes? (5.00 / 4) (#117)
by Battle Troll on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 08:48:55 PM EST

I bought a car from a Danish exchange student this summer. His English was iffy. His girlfriend's English, though, was impeccable.

I'll agree that many moderately-educated Europeans can hack their way along in English; as an almost uninflected language, English is probably the easiest among the Indo-European languages to speak intelligibly despite a poor command of its grammar. As English has no genders or (functional) cases, and only uses three true verb conjugations, many Europeans have convinced themselves that they speak English much better than they actually do. (I've noticed the same thing among the Québecois, by the way, who generally lack formal study in English as well.)

Frankly, the whole thing smacks of Euro condescension: "Those Americans are so dumb that even those of us learning English as our third language speak it better than they can as their native tongue." But that's far off the mark. The very concept of speaking one's native language 'correctly' has far less currency in the Anglo-American world.

Because the English grammar is so simple and word-formation so promiscuous, and because of the levelling induced by democracy particularly in America*, in this century, an academically correct command of the English language has incessantly declined as a priority among American élites. Even the concept of academically correct English is on thin ice among contemporary American scholars, who have for decades been studying the grammar of black dialect, earlier considered the bad grammar of the uneducated. More current, less biased scholarship has recognized that the criterion for determining whether a grammatical expression is right or wrong is function rather than reception.

Anyway, to make a long story short, in Europe an academic command of the language is a very big part of education and success in life. (I oughtn't to have to remind anyone here that government Greek, religious Greek, and everyday Greek constitute three distinct languages, or that scarcely any Germans speak proper national German at home.) In Europe, technical grammar tests are an important part of law-school admissions test and civil service examinations. This isn't the case in America, and this fact says nothing about the education per se of Americans - it's just Europeans playing on a cultural difference to create a false sense of superiority.

* Democracy in the social sense of the word, as noted by Tocqueville - that Americans didn't feel the same need to defer socially and politically to their superiors, socially, in wealth, or in education, as did Europeans.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

Heads up! (none / 0) (#118)
by TurboThy on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 04:20:08 AM EST

I didn't imply that 95% of Danes speak perfect English. Just that they learn English in school. And I don't say it to imply European superiority, just to remind y'all that English is the new lingua franca in the world, and to assume that only Brits or Americans can use it properly (as the OP did) is patently false.
__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
Lingua franca of the world. (none / 0) (#119)
by tkatchev on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 09:46:32 AM EST

No, it isn't.

Not unless you exclude South America, Asia, Russia and Africa out of the world.

Which basically leaves you with the U.S., E.U. and Australia.

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

Err...? (none / 0) (#123)
by TurboThy on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 06:22:58 PM EST

No, it isn't.

Not unless you exclude South America, Asia, Russia and Africa out of the world.
And in what language would, for instance, Ecuadoreans and Russians use for communication? Spanish? Russian?
__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
Yes. (none / 0) (#125)
by tkatchev on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 07:31:35 PM EST

Spanish is "lingua franca" for almost all of South America, and a fair amount of the south-west of the United States.

In Mongolia or Kyrgyzstan you'd have infinitely better luck with Russian than with English.


   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

You missed my point (none / 0) (#129)
by TurboThy on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 05:08:55 AM EST

Which was: If an Ecuadorean and a Russian has to communicate they have three choices: the Russian learns Spanish, the Ecuadorean learns Russian, or they learn another language that they can have in common. For most people in the world today, this third language would be English.
__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
Re: (none / 0) (#132)
by tkatchev on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 09:53:47 AM EST

The third language could be anything, not just English. In your particular example it could just as well be French.

Fact is, your experiences and prejudices in Denmark (or whereever you're from) simply do not correspond to the reality the rest of the world lives in.

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

yeah well (none / 0) (#122)
by Battle Troll on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 02:44:02 PM EST

All Japanese have seven (7) years of English in school, but most speak it terribly, if at all. I am still not that impressed.

Besides, 150 years ago, it was German in Denmark. Can't you guys make up your damn minds?
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]

I hate subjects (none / 0) (#124)
by TurboThy on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 06:31:43 PM EST

Danes have seven years in primary school, and two or three more if they take high school (~60% do). As someone (RobotSlave?) implied earlier, it's probably easier for Europeans than Japanese to learn English because of the common roots of our native tongues.
Can't you guys make up your damn minds?
No, we can't make up our minds. To wit: the Danish referendums on the EU treaties. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
Making up minds. (5.00 / 1) (#126)
by tkatchev on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 07:36:03 PM EST

I think having a military is a prerequisite before you get to "make up minds".


   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0) (#130)
by TurboThy on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 05:13:05 AM EST

Denmark has a military. Remember, we supplied a sub to the desert war against Saddam.
__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
Japanese and English. (none / 0) (#127)
by tkatchev on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 07:36:38 PM EST

I think Chinese would be a bigger priority for them.

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

No. (none / 0) (#128)
by BJH on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 03:52:18 AM EST

I know of no public schools in Japan that offer courses in Chinese, whereas pretty much everybody gets six years of English (and they're experimenting with another couple of years at the primary school level).
--
Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic, and so am I.
-- Oscar Levant

[ Parent ]
Strange. (none / 0) (#133)
by tkatchev on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 09:58:21 AM EST

It must be the weird Japanese people I know. (Not that I know too many Japanese people...)

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

serious answer (none / 0) (#137)
by Battle Troll on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 04:52:47 PM EST

Japan has a strong tradition of studying English largely due to Matthew Perry and the aftermath. Sure, Japnese scholars of great erudition need to study a lot of medieval Chinese, but English is, for Japan, the language of technological modernity.
--
Skarphedinn was carrying the axe with which he had killed Thrainn Sigfusson and which he called 'Battle Troll.'
Njal's Saga, ca 1280 AD
[ Parent ]
Matthew Perry? (none / 0) (#146)
by TurboThy on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 05:24:58 AM EST

Isn't that the guy that plays Chandler in Friends?
__
'Someone will sig this comment. They will. I know it.' [Egil Skallagrimson]
[ Parent ]
UK? (none / 0) (#120)
by tkatchev on Sun Sep 21, 2003 at 09:49:47 AM EST

The U.K. doesn't recognize the Euro and the Schengen --> the U.K. isn't part of the European Union, for all practical purposes.

   -- Signed, Lev Andropoff, cosmonaut.
[ Parent ]

Damn, I'm batting .666 (4.66 / 12) (#39)
by RobotSlave on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 02:40:02 PM EST

That's if we go by section headings, anyway.

Let's recap, then:

Monthly Update

Yeah, what RobotSlave said. (Thank you, RobotSlave).

K5 Site Performance

Um, what RS said, except maybe a little angrier.

New K5 Staff Page

Right, then. What RS said. Link fixed.

New Admin

HAH! IN YOUR FACE, RS! You totally missed the new K5 admin! YEAH!

Site Search

Uh, what RS said.

CMF Stuff

Hey, remember that other provisional CMF board I appointed, back in August 2002? Karsten Self? Robin Bandy? Scott Reents? Ring any bells?

No, I sort of hoped not.

Anyway, for those few of you who do remember those other board members, well, they've... uh... "disappeared," to borrow a certain idiom. Or "fallen sick," in the old Soviet sense, if you know what I mean. In more contemporary, American terms, they've "decided to spend more time with their families," if you see what I'm getting at.

So, what are you driving at...? (nt) (3.00 / 2) (#58)
by gilrain on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 05:18:14 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Top speed, baby. Top fucking speed. (5.00 / 3) (#59)
by RobotSlave on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 05:25:58 PM EST



[ Parent ]
you know rusty... (3.46 / 15) (#45)
by rmg on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 03:36:11 PM EST

if you were an active member of the community, you wouldn't need to make announcements like this one. indeed, these announcements are the best indicator of your withdrawl from said community. but that's not what i wanted to discuss...

there have been a lot of rumors flying around about my alleged appointment to this board. i have been doing much soul searching since the offer came my way. in fact, it came as quite a surprise to me, as i thought rusty would have done enough detective work to get past my various ip tricks and proxies to discover my true identity. certainly, had he known he was offering a position to the notorious rmg, he might have thought better of it...

in any case, whether i will accept this position of prestige remains up in the air. i have commitments to other projects and to interests of my own. i am not, as yet, sure that i am able to rise to this particular challenge. certainly, none of the other board members would represent interests of trolls as i might. and while i can only speculate as to who other party rusty has invited might be, i can only suppose that he or she will be no more qualified in that regard.

i remain, nevertheless, in a quandry. i wonder what others think about this issue. will the community be behind me should i decide to accept?

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks

I don't know about Rusty (3.50 / 8) (#64)
by HidingMyName on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:15:05 PM EST

But all this trolling, crap flooding, dupe account abuse that obscures any interesting content has started to turn me off.

Furthermore, the only noticeable impact of regular activity is TU status, and apparently legitimate users aren't getting that so easily any more (using myself as a data point). Additionally, the benefit of being a TU is quite marginal at best.

I'll check back again in a few days to see if there is any improvement.

[ Parent ]

True (4.00 / 5) (#70)
by A Proud American on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:27:18 PM EST

It seems that the way things are now is essentially "Troll or be trolled."

There's a small, dedicated group of controversial members, and this 1% of the population does 25% of all content moderation.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, because a year ago, there was 1% of the population who were really snipity and extremely liberal and they rated probably 33% of all content based on their own paradigms.

I guess we're just going through a cyclical pattern that will change some day again in the near future.  For now, I'll try to stay on a friendly basis with the "trolls" so that I can actually enjoy and learn from the site.

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


[ Parent ]

interesting (3.57 / 7) (#80)
by burger king on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:21:55 PM EST

i have had no problem getting and maintaining my trusted user status, despite drduck etc.'s best efforts. maybe your contributions to this website are simply sub-par and undeserving of high moderation?

---
Vote Libertarian in 2004.
[ Parent ]

I don't know (2.80 / 5) (#84)
by HidingMyName on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:44:31 PM EST

I'm not so intimately familiar with the subpar, perhaps you can relate your deeply personal knowledge of what it means to be subpar? I guess 2 to 3 comments a day over 3 months with mean ratings well above 4 just wasn't enough after having TU quite some time (I'd guess 6 or 7 months). Maybe using dupe accounts to self moderate or having buddies with dupe accounts participate in a voting circle jerk would have climaxed with TU status, but that's just not my style.

Ah well, I've got to get back to my job, and my family.

[ Parent ]

it sounds like you are addicted to kurocrack (3.12 / 8) (#85)
by burger king on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:49:05 PM EST

if kuro5hin makes you this emotional, maybe it's time for you to take a step back, look in the mirror of self reflection, and reevaluate your priorities in life.

---
Vote Libertarian in 2004.
[ Parent ]

oh my gosh, now we have to behave better (4.60 / 5) (#50)
by mami on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 04:11:53 PM EST

with such kind of overqualified people on the board:
Jed Miller, who I've come to know through an on line deliberation group. Jed is web editor for The New York Times Institutes for Journalists, a project of The NYT Company Foundation, and has worked on on line communities with AOL, audible.com, and the New York Times. He is also is director of collaboration and community at the New York non-profit Web Lab ... He's highly qualified. :-)
That sounds so ... professional, so completely alien to K5. And didn't rusty tell us one time he doesn't like the NYT? Oh, oh.

From now on I will only make nice comments and do my homework... sigh, what a pity.

This does not spare the NYT (3.33 / 3) (#52)
by rusty on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 04:20:36 PM EST

from my everlasting scorn. But I primarily hate the attitude of their newspaper, not the whole organization and everything that it does. Jed worked for the online wing, and now works for a branch organization doing stuff pretty unrelated to the loathsome print organ.

And it doesn't mean you have to behave. There's more of us than there are of him, so we can drag him down to our level. :-)

Oh, he's also a really nice guy, and not the silver-haired hoity-toity gentleman you'd expect. Look! He's even on Livejournal. See? Totally ghetto.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Oh, come off it. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by RobotSlave on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 04:50:46 PM EST

Sure, sure we all hated Raines, but to hate the "attitude" of the paper? Isn't that a bit silly? There's only one Editor in Chief (and one Salzenberg) in charge at a time, y'know?

Besides, I know you're a Krugman groupie. I can spot them a half a block away, just by the way they walk.

[ Parent ]

ITYM "Sulzberger". n/t (5.00 / 1) (#111)
by Secularist on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 11:07:48 AM EST



[ Parent ]
Why rusty, why? (3.00 / 3) (#71)
by mami on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:31:10 PM EST

Give me a link to a thread of discussion that explains why you are against the NYT. If I don't understand that, I won't prolong my subscription, will never ever put an ad on this site and will leave you all alone and that will make you all very sad. So, where's the explanation for loathing the infidels of the NYT?

And BTW, totally ghetto? Looks to me like totally Hollywood. But don't worry, I always mix everthing up, it's my right in my age. I tell you getting old is really fun.

[ Parent ]

Shhh (none / 0) (#131)
by rusty on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 09:49:10 AM EST

Don't tell anyone, but it's mostly a joke. Given a choice, I'd read the Washington Post, but it's really not worth getting all upset about.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
ok, I take all your comments as jokes (none / 0) (#142)
by mami on Wed Sep 24, 2003 at 05:03:31 AM EST

from now on. :-)

But I get upset from time to time and happen to go overboard over your board ... I am not quite sure anymore, if your typo of four elected to five appointed board members versus five elected board members to four appointed board members was also a joke ...

...if it was a typo, be happy, because in the real world you would have gotten fired for telling your boss (the public, which pays your salary, BTW) your typo was just a "joke".

Oh well, may be not, "boards" in the real world can count so well these days that most people can't hold them accountable anymore.

I intend to keep counting like mami does though ... and the little secret is that there is a difference between four and five. :-)

[ Parent ]

Is it because of the jews? (none / 0) (#153)
by psychologist on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 07:24:20 AM EST

Look, just because it is based in New York does not mean it is written by Jews.

[ Parent ]
Money ? (4.71 / 7) (#55)
by bugmaster on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 04:38:19 PM EST

So, how long until we can see a monthly balance sheet, with the total money received and expenses statistics ? I mean... all that money must be going somewhere...
>|<*:=
Missing key things in bylaws: (4.20 / 5) (#66)
by ennui on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:18:45 PM EST

You need stuff like

Compensation: The Board of Directors shall have the power to fix the compensation and fees payable for services rendered to the Corporation; provided, however, that no Director shall be paid any compensation nor receive income via any means for serving as Director or for any other service rendered or functions while serving as Director.

Dividends: The Corporation shall not pay dividends nor distribute any part of its earnings, revenue or income to its Members, Directors or officers.

Reimbursement: Directors may be reimbursed for reasonable travel and lodging expenses when such activities requiring travel and lodging are mandated by anonymous resolution of the Board of Directors.

Your by-laws are also silent on grants and so forth, but you should probably be clear that they won't directly or indirectly inure to directors, members, or entities controlled by or related to directors or members. You should probably also state that any persons or entities compensated in any way by the Corporation will be free of interest and influence by Directors.

Got to spell out all the arms-length stuff, you know, keep the IRS convinced things are really not-for-profit, personal and otherwise.

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone

Oh, and I'm not a lawyer (3.00 / 2) (#69)
by ennui on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:26:54 PM EST

but I'm not sure that "class D" and "class M" perma-director stuff will go over that great, either. I'm afraid there's not much you can do about it if after you ever get around to incorporating the thing and accepting members you get voted out. Now that I've actually gotten around to reading your bylaws, I'm even more disappointed.

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone
[ Parent ]
votes (3.00 / 3) (#78)
by ad hoc on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:16:38 PM EST

mandated by anonymous resolution of the Board

I'm not sure, of course, but I think you might mean "unanimous" resolution.


--

[ Parent ]

Haha, yes (3.66 / 3) (#90)
by ennui on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 09:06:09 PM EST

When I was searching for boilerplate before I came across an interesting thing about anonymous contracts being binding in some cases and couldn't get it out of my head.

"You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone." -- Al Capone
[ Parent ]
You used to be cool, Ruston Foster ... (4.60 / 5) (#67)
by Dinner Is Served on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:24:09 PM EST

You used to be cool. This new patronizing persona isn't very sexy, and it's obviously very illogical. Your previous attitude, that of an admin who receives only 2 dollars per subscriber, was a more accurate portrayal of what a K5 admin should really act like. Think about it, these cheapskates pay 2 bucks and expect the world! The worst thing you can do is give them an inch, because you and I know that they WILL whine a mile.

And I have serious doubts to the number of subscribers who post "friendly suggestions." Only subscribers should get the right to make suggestions. In fact, only subscribers should get to read the site update. Who the hell wants a bunch of freeloaders sticking their nose into something that is highly classified member material? Which brings me to another point: endearing users with reports that should only be known to other admins is not a good security measure.

Concerning the CMF, I must really urge you to not invite Peter Whysall to the committee. Do you really want this to be the Colloborative Media Roanoke? And don't act like Peter would be suitable. Both you and I know how he gets. Remember the New Years party?


--
While I appreciate being able to defend against would-be rapists who might suddenly drop in from the sky, I don't appreciate not being able to see the Northern Lights. -- mfk
Good times (3.09 / 11) (#72)
by Grape Smuggler on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 06:38:29 PM EST

Rusty, do you remember the time you and Tex came over visit. You both played ungrateful and spoiled Boy Scouts who learned the meaning of hard times when you both were discovered nude and vulnerable by me and some friends, playing the role of randy park rangers who prepared you two for merit badges in give and take?

I think times like that are why I should be on the CMF board. Sooner or later you know you'll need someone with a pair of ass-less leather chaps to straighten things out.

By reading this message you've unwittingly exposed yourself to my powerful, moth-like pheremones.

Metafilter? (4.00 / 5) (#83)
by pin0cchio on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:40:56 PM EST

Matt Haughey, who founded Metafilter

Does this mean that Kuro5hin is going to close new user signups as well?


lj65
Mefi's signups are not closed. (4.00 / 4) (#88)
by RobotSlave on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 08:54:50 PM EST

Just send Matt some money, he'll be happy to set you up with an account.

[ Parent ]
you mean it's open again? (none / 0) (#155)
by pin0cchio on Fri Oct 03, 2003 at 08:22:58 PM EST

Really? This page seems to claim that MeFi's signups are closed even to donors.


lj65
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the update rusty (3.66 / 2) (#91)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 09:24:22 PM EST

Also, I saw your picture yesterday. I think you're a very handsome man. I just wanted to let you know that.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
Location? (2.33 / 3) (#103)
by Josh A on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 02:14:19 AM EST

Where can the rest of us ogle this fine photo?

---
Thank God for Canada, if only because they annoy the Republicans so much. – Blarney


[ Parent ]
http://images.google.com/images?q=rusty+foster (3.00 / 2) (#104)
by Attackist on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 03:07:00 AM EST

[NT]

"See, I will let you have cow's dung instead of human dung, on which you may prepare your bread." -- God Almighty

(/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\)
[ Parent ]

Well towards the bottom of the page nt (none / 0) (#109)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 11:03:21 AM EST

Rusty ain't no dog. I'll tell you that!

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
[ Parent ]
I dunno... (none / 0) (#156)
by Josh A on Mon Nov 03, 2003 at 07:25:24 AM EST

This one's kinda cute:

http://www.parrett.net/animalaid/rusty-10aug02.jpg

---
Thank God for Canada, if only because they annoy the Republicans so much. – Blarney


[ Parent ]
Note to Mr. burgerking (2.33 / 3) (#110)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 11:06:42 AM EST

Why did you 1 my comment. Do you think rusty is ugly? You have a lot of nerve coming to this mans website and insulting his appearance.

I suppose another possibility would be that you are so homophobic that you can not stand the idea of one man admiring the apearance of another man. *Sighs* Humanity has a long way to go.

I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour
[ Parent ]

on a serious note... (3.55 / 9) (#94)
by rmg on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 10:32:43 PM EST

i really have to commend you on these monthly updates. what a fantastic idea they are. there is no better time of the month to heckle you than this.

the menstration joke is left as an exercise for the reader.

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks

What happened to the comrade? (3.00 / 1) (#95)
by wji on Fri Sep 19, 2003 at 10:39:01 PM EST

I thought Arkday of the short lived anarchist scoop site / write-in ICANN campaign / OpenNIC project would be on board. Is this some misconception of my addled brain, or is he one of the people to whom you "hint, hint"?

In conclusion, the Powerpuff Girls are a reactionary, pseudo-feminist enterprise.
See update (none / 0) (#136)
by rusty on Mon Sep 22, 2003 at 10:52:52 AM EST

I hope he will rejoin as well.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Is this a meatspace Board of Directors? (3.00 / 1) (#101)
by Gord ca on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 01:47:28 AM EST

What I mean is, will participation in CMF's board require the victim to bodily congregate with the rest of the board? This is how most non-profits work, I assume. But this requires the members to live in roughly the same geographical area, while the CMF's subscriber base would be global.

Would there be legal problems with having a 'virtual board' for a registered non-profit corporation? What if half the board are non-USian while the CMF is a USian corp?

This has prolly been answered elsewhere, but I'm lazy...

If I'm attacking your idea, it's probably because I like it

Not in my understanding. (none / 0) (#115)
by aphrael on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 05:19:25 PM EST

Board meetings can be conducted by conference call. I'm hoping most of the *work* can be done via email and meetings can be pro forma, but that may or not be possible; we'll see how it goes. :)

[ Parent ]
What's vectorizing? (3.66 / 2) (#102)
by Josh A on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 02:07:42 AM EST

Search is taking me longer than I hoped. However, it's going well. I've got the basic wordlist-creating and vectorizing stuff done, and will get it integrated into the existing search interface next week.

Just curious :-)

---
Thank God for Canada, if only because they annoy the Republicans so much. – Blarney


I asked the same thing (5.00 / 2) (#114)
by aphrael on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 05:18:42 PM EST

It seems to be a method of searching wherein documents are represented as points within n-space, each possible word being a dimension, and distance between documents is calculated using linear algebra to determine which documents are close. Rusty gave me this link by way of explanation.

[ Parent ]
Interesting (none / 0) (#150)
by Squiggly Egg on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 07:39:00 PM EST

Fascinating concept. I have to wonder though, how is this "distance" defined? Euclidean distance? 'cos if so, I can quickly think of a few deadly flaws in the algorithm.

[ Parent ]

Hmm. (2.16 / 6) (#113)
by War with Peas on Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 02:30:02 PM EST

Huh? What?

War with Peas

not to be a broken record.. (none / 0) (#139)
by infinitera on Tue Sep 23, 2003 at 09:46:02 AM EST

But I have to bring this up every time the CMF is mentioned. You're still saying Robert's Rules of Order are your voting schema. I'll leave gauntlet to point out the problems with that. Anyways, just because it's standard practice, doesn't mean it's democratic. First past-the-post/plurality systems are quite the opposite, in fact. How's about approval or single transferrable vote?

I haven't ever used it, but ... (4.00 / 1) (#140)
by Mr.Surly on Tue Sep 23, 2003 at 12:10:17 PM EST

... have you looked into MySQL's 'full text' indexing for searching? http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/Fulltext_Search.html

already in Scoop (none / 0) (#144)
by janra on Thu Sep 25, 2003 at 01:05:02 PM EST

It's an option, has been for quite a while now. However, as I understand it, those indexes are big, and the one of the main problems k5 has had with its databases are that even without fulltext indexes the comment indexes are too big to keep in memory. That was, I believe, the driving force behind story and comment archiving.
--
Discuss the art and craft of writing
That's the problem with world domination... Nobody is willing to wait for it anymore, work slowly towards it, drink more and enjoy the ride more.
[ Parent ]
What hardware and software does K5 use? (none / 0) (#143)
by DodgyGeezer on Wed Sep 24, 2003 at 10:38:25 AM EST

Is there a page somewhere that summarises what hardware and software K5 uses?  I've never seen a site with so many DB problems... and I wonder if it is related to the particular DBMS in use.  What the hell keeps going wrong with the DB?

Nothing about the SPAM button (none / 0) (#147)
by QuantumG on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 09:44:39 PM EST

because Rusty never intends to fix it or for some god known reason doesn't think there is a problem.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
Eh? (none / 0) (#148)
by rusty on Fri Sep 26, 2003 at 09:46:17 PM EST

What's wrong with it?

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
It's horribly mislabelled. (5.00 / 1) (#149)
by RobotSlave on Sat Sep 27, 2003 at 04:17:00 AM EST

See here, and especially here.

QuantumG had a story in the queue a little while ago with a poll showing that people were agreeing that the "Spam" button should be relabelled "Move to Vote," but he pulled it, or someone zapped it, or the database indexing pixies ate it, or something. You can use your super-powers to dig it up, if you like.

Not that you're likely to change anything. I mean, putting it to a poll and letting the K5 userbase decide would be too... oh, I don't know. Chaotic, I guess.

[ Parent ]

Ah (none / 0) (#151)
by rusty on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 03:56:27 PM EST

Yeah, I think you're right. I fixed it in Scoop, it'll update when I update K5.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]
Yah! (none / 0) (#152)
by QuantumG on Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 08:23:24 PM EST

Thanks rusty!

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
[ Parent ]
Good news everyone! (none / 0) (#154)
by psychologist on Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 07:27:43 AM EST

In the interest of cultural diversity, and as a way to show that Kuro5hin and America do not discriminate against Arab-Americans, Rusty has informed me that I am to be appointed to the board.

Here is my information, for anyone who would like to contact me:

John Ben-Younes,
Little Switch Alley,
263096H Durban,
South Africa.
email: johnxpsychologist@hotmail.com

Please do not contact me with useless or pointless questions, since I am reasonably busy, but only when something important to the foundation comes up.

Thank you.

K5 Monthly Update, September 2003 | 156 comments (156 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!