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Technology of the New World Order - I

By kpaul in Technology
Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 04:51:24 PM EST
Tags: Freedom (all tags)

Hearing the cry in the trenches for more technical fare, I fire up the word processor and attempt to offer a little discussion fodder concerning technology that could be used by those who want to dominate the world. Some of the technology might not be in wide use yet, but should be worthy of a bit of discussion regarding the potential ramifications of its use. And since this is meant to be a discussion site, I'll sprinkle a liberal dose of my own thoughts (and some conspiracies!) in so that you can argue and/or agree.

Tracking and ID:

Fingerprint scanners use either optical scanning or capacitance scanning to capture a digital copy of a fingerprint. The former technique uses a charged couple device (CCD) similar to what exists in some digital cameras (CMOS being a relative newcomer to the scene.) Capacitance scanning involves using electricity instead of light to read the ridges in our fingertips.

What will happen when biometric scanners become more ubiquitous? They're becoming smaller and cheaper to produce all the time. Will they be in mass production soon? Is it wrong not to want to give up to much of your private information even if you're not doing anything that is against the law? Do you let them track what you buy at the grocery store? And if so, why?

Also in the identification realm we have retina scanners. You can even buy one on Yahoo now. One of the features used for unique identification of humans is the Trabecular Meshwork. That and other patterns are converted into a 512-byte template which is stored for future reference. Will the technology eventually be used as seen in movies like Brazil and Minority Report to scan and track the movement of people everywhere in the name of security?

The above two types of scanning are generally limited to short distances. In 2001, though, technology recently acquired by identix was used at Suberbowl XXXV. They were able to use video cameras, computers and some software to scan the faces of the thousands in attendance and compare their facial features to a database of known bad guys.

Visionics, the company that originally created the FaceIt system used what they refer to as nodal points to get a 'print' of someone's face. Some of the things they measure are the width of your nose, the depth of your eye sockets, etc.

When the software is hooked into video feeds it uses a multi-scale algorithm to identify faces within a frame of video. A face must be turned at least 35 degrees to register in the software as usable. The captured face is then 'normalized' so that the above elements can be mapped to a number or unique code. This is matched against the database of citizens to try to establish a match. As you can imagine, to be done in real time requires pretty extensive computing power.

The practice of embedding miniscule chips into things is also becoming more commonplace. RFID chips are getting cheaper and cheaper to produce, which means more and more companies will be using them. Think what the world would be like if the tiny ids were embedded in money or even a human being. Scary thoughts, eh?

The technology behind RFID is fairly simple. Tiny chips with a tiny coil are implanted into an object (or person) and a reader unit sends out ultra-low-frequency electromagnetic waves that give the chips a source of power to 'boot up' and send a few thousand bytes of data back to the reader. Currently, the chips are come only in ROM varieties.

While big and bulky tracking devices have been around for quite a while, they have a mostly negative image because of their use on criminals. How to shift to the mainstream? How about marketing them to kids?

Will the Saturday morning cartoon commercial say in a sing-song voice, "Say What? Tommy doesn't have a tracker too? Shame on you Tommy. Tell your parents they don't love you if they don't track you!" In comes puppy with tracker device. "They track poor little puppy, don't they? Don't they love you too Tommy? Don't be blue, order a tracker for your friend too!"

Mind Control

Speaking of mindless marketing, is brainwashing through television conspiracy or a frightening reality - very 1984? Remember Max Headroom with no on/off switches for the telescreens? For a lot (at least in the West) there's no need for the switch. Unwashed masses leave it on for 'background noise,' unable to stand the sound of silence around them for long, addicted to a constant barrage of what's 'cool' and what's not 'bad'.

Even if it isn't through TVs (or telescreens or CRTs or LCDs), do you ever wonder at what technology is out there that we don't know about? Do you chalk it all up as just another conspiracy? Or do you sometimes wonder?

What do you do if the subject doesn't watch television and avoids commercials and modern marketing like the plague? Implants are one possibility. They're working on devices now, neural prostheses, so why not something that can trigger electrical impulses to go to one region of the brain and elicit an emotion or mood?

MK-ULTRA was research done by the CIA in the 1950s and 1960s that sought how to control the minds of people. Do you think the CIA used LSD to brainwash people?

Lysergic acid diethylamide, abbreviated LSD-25, is a mind altering substance 'partially' accidentally discovered by Albert Hofmann. It is a fascinating substance. Could it be used for nefarious purposes, though?

Super Soldiers

What if you could create 'go pills' (legal of course) that would enable soldiers to go days and days without sleep? The technique was used by other armies during the course of human existence. Even scarier perhaps is the Brave New World type of pharmacopoeia being concocted. For example, 'anti-guilt pills' that would cause soldiers to forget or 'be ok with' violent acts of destruction against 'enemies' (i.e. people - soldiers, men, women, children, whatever...)

And even beyond strictly biochemical enhancements, helmets and other gear is being enhanced electronically, part of Army Vision 2010.

Will cyborg commandos become more prevalent? And what of their 'non-lethal' weapons meant to control the crowds? Formed in 1997, the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate (JNLWD) is scrambling for a kinder, more humane way to control the masses.

One method, Active Denial Technology, uses millimeter-wave electromagnetic energy to achieve this. (Does it also have a lethal setting?) Another being researched is veiling-glare lasers, which emit wide-angle laser beams in the violet to ultraviolet spectrum. (Are these truly harmless?) Many other devices and substances are also being researched for use.

What does it all mean for me, an 'average' K5 user?

What does all this technology mean to us? Well, I'm not screaming 'run to the hills' yet, but I do think we should proceed carefully with everything we're developing.

I'm not a luddite by any means, intent on the total absence of technology. I just think that as these technologies emerge at a faster and faster pace we should stop and ponder the implications. I believe we should stop and wonder if it's possible (or indeed desirable) to trade privacy for security.


Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure


o doesn't concern me. 1%
o intrigues me slightly. 3%
o is my obsession. 23%
o can be used for evil or good (computers don't hack people, people hack people) 58%
o is the terrible secret of space. 14%
o scares me. 0%

Votes: 91
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Yahoo
o Fingerprin t scanners
o becoming smaller
o track what you buy
o buy one on Yahoo now
o Trabecular Meshwork
o 512-byte template
o identix
o used at Suberbowl XXXV
o originally created the FaceIt system
o nodal points to get a 'print'
o multi-scal e algorithm
o RFID chips
o companies will be using them
o embedded in money
o even a human being
o technology behind RFID
o big and bulky tracking devices
o marketing them to kids
o conspiracy
o frightening reality
o very 1984
o Max Headroom with no on/off switches
o just another conspiracy
o Implants
o neural prostheses
o used LSD to brainwash people
o 'partially ' accidentally discovered
o used for nefarious purposes
o go pills
o other armies
o anti-guilt pills
o helmets
o Army Vision 2010
o cyborg commandos
o Active Denial Technology
o Are these truly harmless
o faster and faster pace
o Also by kpaul

Display: Sort:
Technology of the New World Order - I | 73 comments (54 topical, 19 editorial, 0 hidden)
Another RFID basher!! (3.33 / 3) (#2)
by QuantumG on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 01:36:57 AM EST

As I said my most recent diary entry, get ya paws off my RFIDs. So it invades your privacy a bit.. big deal! What about other people's rights? Surely the store has the right to put whatever tracking devices they want on their products, if you don't like it either don't shop there or remove the devices yourself!. I personally like the idea of have everything I buy trackable. That way I can dump everything at the end of the day into my scanno-bin and get a nice summary at the end of the week. New World Order.. pfft.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
a watchman... (4.50 / 2) (#7)
by kpaul on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 02:00:40 AM EST

not a basher. ;)

Don't you agree the implications of such technology should be discussed before they're used en masse?

I didn't mean to come off that they were absolute evil in and of themselves, but they could be used for nefarious reasons. No?

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

RFID tags aren't that powerful in the real world (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by Edgy Loner on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 05:54:14 PM EST

Just try to actually use them for something and you'll find that out. The exact specs vary between tag designs and manufacturers but the overall limitations are fairly uniform.

Data capacity: they can't store much data, about a dozen bytes. Enough for a serial number, but not much else.

Range: Not far. The farthest I've seen anything read a passive RFID tag from was about 10 inches. That was with a reader antennae the size of your hand and a 0.750 inch dia tag antenna. You can get more range with bigger antennas and more power of course. The environment plays a big role in how much range you can get. If the tag is mounted on a metal substrate it cuts down on the range a lot. The relative orientation of the tag and reader antennaes play a big role too. Read range can drop to near 0 with bad orientations. Active tags can be read from maybe 10 meters, but active tags are big, expensive and require a power supply.

Multiple tags: If there is more than one tag in the reader's range, you either read garbage, or more likely nothing. As your reader range increases that becomes more of an issue.

Tag size: RFID tags aren't microscopic. The electronics themselves are pretty small, but the antenneas on them are quite large. Typical tags I've seen are about 3/4 inch diameter by credit card thickness. These can be read from about 3-4 inches away with a TV remote control sized reader. The smaller tags have smaller read ranges. The 'rice grain' sized tags you chip your dog or cat with have really short read ranges. The vet basically has to rub the reader over the critter to read it.

Cost: RFID tags are cheap - depending on the packageing, but they aren't free.

I'm not saying they aren't useful, I'm in a business that depends on them, they just aren't magic. Think of them this way: everywhere you see a barcode, an RFID tag can do the same job. The RFID tag is probably more durable, it can get painted over, and will still work with mud smeared over it. You might be able to read the barcode from farther away, depending on the specific conditions with the right reader. Just a slightly better barcode is all.

This is not my beautiful house.
This is not my beautiful knife.
[ Parent ]
"or remove the devices yourself!" (none / 0) (#36)
by Ebon Praetor on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 05:51:40 PM EST

Only it'll be illegal to remove the tracking device, the same way it's illegal to remove a digital rights management/copyprotection device.

And no, the store doesn't have any right to know what I do with their products after I buy it.  If I wanted it tracked, then I could stick the tracking device on myself in an opt-in sort of way.

You can keep your 'sorta-privacy-invading devices,' and I'll keep my own ways of keeping track of my stuff.  Oh wait, it'll probably be illegal to do it my way...

[ Parent ]

sing (2.20 / 5) (#5)
by zephc on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 01:44:20 AM EST

the singularity will consume you.
fear not man's work,
for it will pass quickly
into the night.
fear only that you may die too soon,
and change will come
before your time.
 - me

thank you.

pray (3.50 / 2) (#8)
by kpaul on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 02:06:39 AM EST

that the simplicity won't confuse you.
fear not man's work,
for where was He when it
was created?
fear only that which made man's work work,
and He will come
and end all time.
- kpaul

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]
Mass Production Fingerprint Scanners (4.00 / 1) (#10)
by opendna on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 03:17:39 AM EST

Sony has released the Fingerprint ID unit for Win 2000. Eyenetwatch.com, which bills itself as "The UK'S Top Biometric Seller" has several products available from mice to keyboards to PCMCIA cards.

Somewhere I saw a portable USB memory stick with a biometric (fingerprint) data lock, but I can't find it at the moment.

A bank in my area (CalFed now CitiBank) had a program of replacing signitures and PINs on bank accounts with fingerprints. They have since canceled the program and removed the scanners from the teller windows. Maybe someone pointed out that a missing finger would show someone had lived through a mugging...

Anyway, I think it's safe to say this stuff is already well into mass production.

No wonder why they pulled the program out (none / 0) (#40)
by CtrlBR on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 06:03:20 PM EST

Because fingerprint scanners are easily fooled.

It's quite easy to get someone fingerprints without him knowing it but quite harder to get a PIN.

If no-one thinks you're a freedom fighter than you're probably not a terrorist.
-- Gully Foyle

[ Parent ]
Harder to change when they get compromised too (5.00 / 2) (#41)
by Edgy Loner on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 06:16:17 PM EST

If you lose control of your pin or password, just makeup a new one. No problem you can do that any number of times you need. What do you do when your fingerprint / retinal scan / DNA sequence gets loose. I only have 10 fingers, two eyes, and one set of DNA. Kinda limits your options.

This is not my beautiful house.
This is not my beautiful knife.
[ Parent ]
more linkage (none / 0) (#11)
by kpaul on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 03:37:53 AM EST

10 Emerging Technologies That Will Change the World - Technology Review February 2003

2014 Halloween Costumes

Software assurance (none / 0) (#60)
by anyonymous [35789] on Sat Jan 25, 2003 at 09:14:15 PM EST

what happens if the bug tracking/finding software has bugs? Will it find itself? "Lookit me, I suck."

[ Parent ]
TVs (4.00 / 3) (#12)
by DarkZero on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 03:51:53 AM EST

Remember Max Headroom with no on/off switches for the telescreens? For a lot (at least in the West) there's no need for the switch. Unwashed masses leave it on for 'background noise,' unable to stand the sound of silence around them for long, addicted to a constant barrage of what's 'cool' and what's not 'bad'.

If you have the choice of whether or not to stand the sound of silence around you, you're a lucky man. In the suburbs, the noises are varied and endless: car doors slamming, kids playing, kids screaming at each other, people walking across lawn or driveway gravel, trucks going by, and the horde of once-in-a-blue-moon sort of events that together form at least one or two entirely unique noises per day, like the guy across the street putting new tires in his car or someone dropping a piece of furniture while moving it. In the cities, it's just one long, endless droning sound that you eventually get used to, but which still deprives you of silence.

I'd turn the radio on instead of a cable news channel, but I always seem to end up with Wacky Wally's High-Pitched Jackassery Hour (actually four) instead of something decent to listen to. This is probably because none of us will ever hear the words, "This hour of smooth, light jazz is brought to you by Clear Channel Communications, because we got our programming director really, really stoned and managed to convince him that the real money in radio wasn't in Top 40 'hits'."

And as for the "unwashed masses", it's been my experience that most conspiracy nuts talking about the mind control tactics of the "New Word Order" could usually stand to bathe more frequently, but hey, that's just me.

point taken + online radio + unwashed masses (none / 0) (#15)
by kpaul on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 04:13:09 AM EST

Yeah, I definitely see what you mean re: silence. Maybe I should have clarified better that the absence of tv noise or 'background noise' is what I meant by 'silent' - degrees of silence - more silent rather than totally silent.

Re: clear channel - are you listening to music online yet? Great selection of free streams out there - a lot with no advertising at all. Very cool thing, that. Just recently hooked the laptop up to the home stereo too, so it sounds decent too.

(Shoutcast.com is one of the few I've found with a large selection and no pop-ups and very little audio advertising. Love to hear if anyone knows of others, though...)

Re: unwashed masses. Even *I* am not entirely sure what I meant by that. ;)

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

Radio (4.00 / 1) (#27)
by DarkZero on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 10:49:45 AM EST

I've tried some internet radio stations and so far I haven't been impressed. They've basically fallen into three categories for me: crap, a "nine in a row" block of commercials interrupted by a minimal amount of music, and a desperate attempt to emulate the worst parts of FM radio ("You're listening to W-ASS, the Ass! Faithfully serving the citizens of Bumfuck, Iowa since eight days ago!!!").

I've never actually bothered to go through a big listing and try a lot of them out, though, so thanks for the Shoutcast.com link. Maybe I'll find something interesting there.

[ Parent ]

yeah (none / 0) (#24)
by tps12 on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 08:34:12 AM EST

Those damn kids playing and laughing. I didn't fight the Japs and break my back my whole life just to have my piece and quiet ruined by a bunch of brats whose parents never taught them to respect their elders. There oughtta be a law.

[ Parent ]
NPR NPR NPR (5.00 / 1) (#65)
by pr0t0plasm on Mon Jan 27, 2003 at 03:45:46 PM EST

It ain't perfect, but it's the least broken news source I'm aware of. In some lucky cities, member stations play music too.

- - - - - Patent applied for and deliver us from evil.
[ Parent ]

Mind Control (4.00 / 1) (#21)
by KiTaSuMbA on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 06:42:09 AM EST

While I can accept the psychological pressures as a succesful method to "control" people, I have to disagree about "mythical" devices and pills.
First a bit of theory. The brain cortex operates using complex high-dimensional dynamic states generated in stereotypical microcircuitries that are capable of simultaneously partecipating in more than one "functional" units (cortical columns) abstracting features in real time. Thus the inadequacy of the finished-state machine paradigm like the Turing machine to simulate such processes. Only recently a new theoretical model has emerged that seems to answer some of our questions though still emerging new ones - the Liquid State Machine (LSM - Maass, Markram et. al.). Given the high-dimensionality, the low-probability of the system repeating its dynamic state and the non-linear stateless extraction of information it is obvious that by acting on a generalised area (an entire population of neurons) could hardly give any predictable effects to the extend of justifying the term "Mind Control". The most likely event would be a disruption/disturbance of the functions influenced by that cortical area to the extent of impaired functionality or - at our wildest dreams - a mild and generalised shift to the subject's perception of information elaborated in the area which cannot  guarantee us any form of prediction about the state of the cognitive abstractions. The only way to be able of such a control would be to be able to recognize the actual neurons having the role of "readout" abstracting elements in the functional columns we are interested in (note that "elaborating" and "readout" roles can be shared by the same neuron at the same time for different or even the same functional column in a given microcircuity "module") and actually be able to modify the bias. This generates a two-fold problem: without a sufficient notion of the microcircuitry dynamics we cannot have a "ruleset" to recognize the "readouts" while at the same time current technology does not allow us to either apply that ruleset to actual neuronal populations or - even worse - influence them.
Neuronal prostheses are currently limited to the role of providing missing input with very low quality results for now (blind, deaf people) since they do not interfere with that very elaboration and non-linearity. It's the cortex adjusting to and accomodating the prosthesis and not the other way around leaving the prosthesis powerless to make decisions for the mind that will take its own ways in interpreting what it "sees". Unless these prostheses are able to selectively, dynamicaly and plastically connect to specific neurons at the location of insertion there is no hope for anything more than that.
Pharmacological treatment on the other hand takes the above concept even further: the substance enters the system through a massive volume conduction medium (blood flow and successively liquor) thus having no selective power other than at the molecular level, completely ignoring the network properties. It's like reprogramming a computer with a baseball bat - or, better, "adjusting" your old TV set with a bang on top of it: it probably works somehow-somewhat but it's nowhere near "controlling" it. Drugs could cause enhanced or diminished senses of anxiety, fear, reward or euphoria but how would that turn out to be selective on specific cognitive contests is only a wishlist-item and a mere invention of some Hollywood films.
But the more important argument is also the simplest: why go through all that trouble when good ol' propaganda actually works?

In conclusion, I find your article an interesting read that ranges from present reality to highly probable future to urban legends.
There is no Dopaminergic Pepperoni Kabal!

<P> you bastard [n/t] (4.00 / 4) (#29)
by RyoCokey on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 11:01:08 AM EST

"Like all important issues, gun control is an emotional issue that will be resolved by politics, belief, and conviction, not by a resort to "facts'." - [ Parent ]
And amazingly. . . (none / 0) (#62)
by Fantastic Lad on Mon Jan 27, 2003 at 05:44:02 AM EST

Look up 'Greenbaum', Dr. Allan Frey, Dr. Jose Delgado. . .

And here's a fun quote. . .

By the early 1970s, there were already means available to alter the moods of unsuspecting persons. A pocket-sized transmitter generating electromagnetic energy at less than 100 milliwatts could do the job. This is no pie-in-the-sky theory. In 1972, Dr. Gordon J.F. McDonald testified before the House Subcommittee on Oceans and International Environment on the issue of electromagnetic weapons used for mind control and mental disruption. He stated:

[T]he basic notion was to create, between the electrically charged ionosphere in the higher part of the atmosphere and conducting layers of the surface of the Earth, this neutral cavity, to create waves, electrical waves that would be tuned to the brain waves. ...About ten cycles per second. ...You can produce changes in behavioral patterns or in responses.

The following year, Dr. Joseph C. Sharp, at Walter Reed Hospital, while in a soundproof room, was able to hear spoken words broadcast by 'pulsed microwave audiogram.' These words were broadcast to him without any implanted electronic translation device. Rather, they reached him by direct transmission to the brain. [Richard Dolan]

-Fantastic Lad

[ Parent ]

I let them track what I buy (4.00 / 1) (#22)
by glor on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 07:57:18 AM EST

I can't afford not to --- basically everything in my grocery is marked down with the loyalty card (or marked up without the loyalty card) and it's a difference of 10-15% of my total every time. That's probably $500 a year. There are groceries around here that don't have the loyalty program, but their food costs more. I'm in grad school. I'm broke. The decision is made there.

Of course, they're actually tracking what my dog buys, but that doesn't make much difference.

Disclaimer: I am not the most intelligent kuron.

Shopping cards (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by thejeff on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 10:33:20 AM EST

I use them. I usually go to one of two grocery stores. For one I have 3 cards, none of them linked to my name. One I filled out with a false name and address, the others I found. At the other store, I don't have a card, but the cashiers always enter some kind of generic number that gets me the same discounts. Also, I pay with cash, so none of them get associated with my name that way. Works for me.

What I'd like to do is have a group of people, maybe at work, throw all their cards into a bowl and whenever you need one just grab one out of the bowl. All the discounts and the tracking gets completely confused.

[ Parent ]

already exists in switzerland and germany... (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by lemming prophet on Sat Jan 25, 2003 at 07:56:15 AM EST

At the big brother award ceremony last year they also gave out a "winkelried" award, an award for the person/company who did most for privacy!
The winner was the creator of the 4q card, a "combo" card with which you can buy stuff with the loyalty discounts at all big chains...
the links are german only, though...
4q card
it's german equivalent, the privacy card
privacy card
Follow me.
[ Parent ]
Depends on where you live (4.66 / 3) (#28)
by zaphos on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 11:00:07 AM EST

In the US on the East Coast, there are several grocery stores with those tracker/loyalty cards, but there are also several discount stores where the groceries are always at the "loyalty" price. I suspect that the "loyalty" price is what the real price oughta be, but then Safeway/Giant/A&P/whatever jack up the prices so you think you're getting a good deal with this card.

In my area, we have Trader Joe's, which is cheap, and if you like buying in mass-quantities, we have Costco. Those three area always cheaper than Safeway, etc.

If going to another store is not an option for you (you did mention being a student, and I know I sure as fuck could not afford a car before I got a job!), and you dislike the big brother thing, then just invent a person to sign up (they don't tend to check ID... yet...), and give the sign-up phone number to all your friends for them to use.

Fill the system with entropy. Let Ponidexter try to make sense of why you think you need to buy tampons, a beard trimmer, pantyhose, and an "athletic supporter" at 4 different stores at the same time.

So few people seem to realize that what seems fascinating and meaningful to them is utterly meaningless and dull for the listener. -rusty
[ Parent ]

I've heard (5.00 / 1) (#34)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 02:32:56 PM EST

I've heard of people who get cards and after one use trade them with a friend to help confuse everything.

"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

I question the effectiveness anyway (none / 0) (#69)
by glor on Wed Jan 29, 2003 at 06:47:47 AM EST

Like I said, they're tracking what my dog buys. I got the idea when I read about a fellow whose dog subscribed to the New Yorker and was pre-approved for a credit card.

Disclaimer: I am not the most intelligent kuron.
[ Parent ]

Name, DOB, Address... (none / 0) (#53)
by opendna on Sat Jan 25, 2003 at 12:54:24 AM EST

NAME: George Orwell
DOB: 1984
Address: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave
City: Washington
State: DC

ref: SAFEWAY: 900,000 George Orwells attached to You are being watched: a call for randomness.

[ Parent ]

I don't see a difference (none / 0) (#67)
by Cro Magnon on Tue Jan 28, 2003 at 02:04:25 PM EST

There are two main stores in my area, Price Chopper, which has a card, and Apple Market which doesn't. I don't see much price difference between them. I only go to Price Chopper for a few items which Apple Market doesn't carry, and I DON'T have their !@#$ card!
Information wants to be beer.
[ Parent ]
I've heard that too. (none / 0) (#68)
by kpaul on Tue Jan 28, 2003 at 06:57:37 PM EST

I can't remember where, but I've read at least one study that compared prices for w/card and sans card shops - like you said, not much savings.

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

-1, Condescending (4.16 / 6) (#30)
by egg troll on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 01:17:21 PM EST

Unwashed masses leave it on for 'background noise,' unable to stand the sound of silence around them for long, addicted to a constant barrage of what's 'cool' and what's not 'bad'.

Our apologies for not being as educated and enlightened as yourself. We do hope you'll bear with us, as someday with your guidance, we'll be on your exhalted plane of existance.

He's a bondage fan, a gastronome, a sensualist
Unparalleled for sinister lasciviousness.

Meh. (5.00 / 2) (#42)
by bjlhct on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 06:27:34 PM EST

I don't own a TV. They're expensive and ugly. There's nothing good on TV anyway, I hear. Get the Simpsons on DVD.

It's actually sad how we're really in the dark ages in a number of ways.

Go argue with Feynman's ghost.

[kur0(or)5hin http://www.kuro5hin.org/intelligence] - drowning your sorrows in intellectualism
[ Parent ]

Condescend that? (none / 0) (#58)
by jefu on Sat Jan 25, 2003 at 08:54:12 PM EST

I must agree with the commenter here. "Unwashed masses" indeed.

I admit it. I do tend to have the TV (or radio) on when I'm at home - and use it for wallpaper. And there's a reason. If I don't have the tv or radio on, noises from outside (noisy cars, people on the sidewalk, very noise sound systems in cars ...) distract me quickly so reading or working is far more difficult. Having them on provides a kind of barrier that outside distractions need to beat in order to bother me.

I'd prefer a program of something like Robert J.'s program "Morning Pro Musica", but there is nothing like that available here. AM/FM popular music stations seem to hire announcers for their ability to be annoying. NPR tends to get me listening to interesting stories. A tv diet tends to not require me to listen or pay attention.

I used to work in an office in a college, on a busy corridor with lots of people talking and wandering around, with a very loud ventilator fan that liked to turn on and off frequently (and noisily). I couldn't work there at all. I can work at home with my tv.

And in any case, I took a shower today. And I'd challenge you to find a massless human being.

[ Parent ]

Wel (2.60 / 5) (#37)
by medham on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 05:51:59 PM EST





3:19pM 18:34am :12:2034R324ZM


There's an intriguing science fiction story, whose author and name I will withhold, about the effects of genetically altered people who don't require sleep. It mainly focuses around the pressure they feel from normals at their elite colleges. I'm sure you've all had to deal with similar issues.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

plastic knives (4.00 / 1) (#39)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 05:55:26 PM EST

remember, the september 11th terrorists turned multiple airliners into custom cruise missiles with nothing more than plastic knives as their technology of choice. think of all of the technology involved in modern air travel... and plastic knives circumvent the whole system.

hackers, like mitnick, often tell us that most systems are hacked via "social engineering," not through purely technological means. the human being is the weakest- and the strongest point, in any security system.

this story is a good and important one, but just remember that all of tech mentioned has to be designed/ installed/ used by someone with a pulse. it is that human element which decides the day, not the tech.

technology is not a panacea. technology doesn't really solve problems- nor does it really create them either. technocrats and technophiles are merely technological fetishists. so much eye candy and so little substance.

it's always been, and always will be, the human element that determines the day, whether we are stone age, or information age.

multibillion dollar defense and security budgets for corporations or governments, big brother or little brother, matter but a puff of smoke when compared to the strength and will of the hearts and minds behind them... or arranged against them. all important political or ethical or cultural wars take place in the heart and in the mind, not in cyberspace or even the meatspace real world. call it "soulspace." passion decides the day, not tech.

a few committed maniacs can change the course of history- for better or for worse. remember september 11th. joan of arc. john brown.

the only way the democratic west will defeat religious fundamentalists is if they have more passion in their belief in democracy than the religious zealots have in their theocracy. this is true whether you are talking about domestic religious zealots, such as anti-abortion nitwits or creationist morons, or international religious zealots, like bigotted, fascist al qaeda.

the governments of western democracies can have a trillion dollars in defense and security spending at their disposal, with all of the fantasmagoric tech they could possibly dream of. but it won't matter one bit if there is no true passion in the hearts and minds of the people for the larger principles behind the conflict. democracy versus theocracy, that is the conflict. everything else is a red herring, the tech as well.

hypermodern tech is so much cyberspace icing on the much more substantive meatspace cake.

uh, sorry for the use of the phrase "meatspace cake." lol ;-P

C:\>tracert life.liberty.pursuit-of-happiness

Have you got Alzheimer's? (2.66 / 3) (#48)
by Netsnipe on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 10:18:12 PM EST

They used box cutters, not plastic knives.

Andrew 'Netsnipe' Lau
Debian GNU/Linux Maintainer & Computer Science, UNSW
[ Parent ]
insulted by a moron (4.50 / 2) (#50)
by circletimessquare on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 11:42:51 PM EST

actually it was box cutters and plastic knives

but even if it were just box cutters, how does that change anything i said in my post? why did you bother responding? just to insult me?

do a google search for "plastic knives" "september 11th"

tell me what comes up on your search

because, you see, then you would not have a reason to accuse me of having alzheimers

meanwhile, with your post, you have given me plenty of ammunition to call you an asshole for insulting me and a moron for doing it when i'm right

i mean really, you have fingers, and you can type, but aren't you forgetting the brain somewhere in the equation? why did you even bother responding?

C:\>tracert life.liberty.pursuit-of-happiness
[ Parent ]

passion from a postmodernist perspective (5.00 / 2) (#59)
by benxor on Sat Jan 25, 2003 at 09:08:08 PM EST

I think you are correct, but may I make an adendum to the passion thing: I think that while we put ourselves to what we think of ultimately practical and worthwhile causes, we are also simultaneously satisfying lower and less rational desires, and resolving less rational, internal issues. An easy example might be the army general who exists with constant control over The Button as a failsafe to protect his nation, but at the same time doing the job because it makes him feel secure and powerful and manly. Going deeper still, we can never really track down the exact event which trigured him to want to be in the army, and the reason he remains in his job is a coallescion of many reasons, all from conflicting issues which resolve themselves at some point due to some other condition in his personality which makes him what to stay at this point.

The idea of people having to 'retain their passion', I think is a little bit outdated and modernist. We all have passion for all kinds of things, and we do them for reasons which exist on all levels of rationality and desire, and likewise totally transcend these things. One may even suggest that, on our own, and without community and names and labels to define our acts as rational or not, we really are just meaningless phantasms of emotional reastion that have no real reasons (known to us) for anything that we do at all.

Remember also that these 'maniacs who changed history' are only there because they affected our futures, were written about by our historians, and in that way. They may indeed not have had that much effect, or it may have been someone they knew who was really behind the changes history attributes to them - it's the story we love, not the actual reality of thr person; which is not only probably different to how we think of them, but perhaps, by the differential in time and culture, totally anathema to us and irrelivent.

I think what you are saying is: since social engineering is really behind the integrity of every major system, no matter how advanced it is -- then therefore the cultural attachment with the most passion will ultimately win. I think, alternately, that whoever wins will win: theocracy and beuracracy are one in the same thing and, in any case, merely constructions of eachother based on an underlying theme of heirarchically arranging people and making them worship a head figure or structure. It will ultimately be the will of the people for whatever reason, rational or not that will overcome. Or maybe it won't. Meaning is made up after the fact, never before it (and in any case, the meaning before the fact will be different to the consequent meaning).

Also, your naming of mad fundamentalists is once again a label which makes sense to us because of our perspective of these so called psycho morons: they too act for reasons which transcend the easy label of Islam or Creationism, and they are real people too who seek happiness and peace and sex and money like we do.

'hypermodern tech is so much cyberspace icing on the much more substantive meatspace cake' - well i agree with that, definitely =)

all generalisations are false - including this one
[ Parent ]

I swear this isn't a troll (none / 0) (#43)
by KittyFishnets on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 07:04:26 PM EST

Maybe it was just some Daily Show joke (I can't remember exactly where I saw it), but I heard the Army was working on a shit gun. Not a poo-shooter, but rather a weapon that would somehow cause the target to suddenly lose control of their bowels.

Anyone else hear about this?

(I tried doing a Google but got nothing but wierdness for "shit gun"...)


Transmetropolitan (4.33 / 3) (#45)
by chale on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 09:03:06 PM EST

Go to your nearest large chain book or comic seller and find the comic called Transmetropolitan. The central character's(Spider Jerusalem) favorite weapon is the "bowel disrupter". It has many settings and is used in many different situations.


Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as though nothing had happened.--Winston Churchill
[ Parent ]

Here (4.00 / 1) (#46)
by spcmanspiff on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 09:23:10 PM EST

I think it's mentioned in this paper, although they don't call it a "shit gun."

I googled with "non lethal weapons bowel site:.mil". Google is damned scary sometimes.


[ Parent ]

Brown noise! (none / 0) (#49)
by Greyjack on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 11:23:51 PM EST

It's the brown noise!

Here is my philosophy: Everything changes (the word "everything" has just changed as the word "change" has: it now means "no change") --Ron Padgett

[ Parent ]
Also see: (4.00 / 1) (#51)
by opendna on Sat Jan 25, 2003 at 12:31:07 AM EST

Microwave Weapon Unveiled; Burning Pain To Control Crowds c/o Microwave News
Pentagon's latest weapon: a pain beam c/o CNN. (includes pic)

Search terms: non lethal "crowd control" frequency microwave.

MSNBC had a great picture of a prototype around the time all this broke, but it has since gone into the archives. Kudos to anyone who saved it.

[ Parent ]

Instead of "512 byte" (2.00 / 1) (#44)
by Fen on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 07:30:31 PM EST

Why not use 200h byte? It's make it much more clear. Please try to do this in the future.
Instead of "200h byte" (4.00 / 1) (#47)
by it certainly is on Fri Jan 24, 2003 at 10:10:16 PM EST

Why not use 1000o byte? It's make it much more clear. Try pie, try.

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.
[ Parent ]

that's ok too (none / 0) (#52)
by Fen on Sat Jan 25, 2003 at 12:31:48 AM EST

But that wasn't used originally.
[ Parent ]
Already prophecied (2.66 / 3) (#54)
by krc on Sat Jan 25, 2003 at 03:00:17 AM EST

"The practice of embedding miniscule chips into things is also becoming more commonplace. RFID chips are getting cheaper and cheaper to produce, which means more and more companies will be using them. Think what the world would be like if the tiny ids were embedded in money or even a human being. Scary thoughts, eh?"

Yes, it is a scary thought, and I believe that this was prophecied approximately 2000 years ago:

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:16-17).

"Those who are ready to sacrifice freedom for security ultimately will lose both."
--Abraham Lincoln

contact biometrics won't happen (4.50 / 2) (#57)
by shpoffo on Sat Jan 25, 2003 at 03:48:21 PM EST

I'd like to pose the notion that biometric scanners that require you touch the device won't occur. There is already increasing public distain over touching things which lots of other people touch. This is more than the convenience of automatic.

Most people don't sit on toilet seats in public restrooms. They don't like to touch handles (faucets, doors, etc) in public areas either. What would be the impetus for people to start placing their fingertips or hands on something which everyone would? Most any place that has people touch something 'communal' that is not a door handle or other utilitarian device already has an attendant with disinfectant wipes for that common object. Copntact-based biometrics scanners will be no different.

If there are these kinds of big-brother conspiracies creeping chances are that they will do so a lot more subtle, or will be openly accepted by the general public (mark of the beast, 1984, mind control, etc)

If you've thought of it, chances are so has someone else.... with a lot more money and capability to enact it. Be more creative - they are already


Kewl. (none / 0) (#61)
by br14n on Sun Jan 26, 2003 at 02:16:15 AM EST

I like it because it has 1337 words.

You know, over on Slashdot. . . (3.00 / 1) (#63)
by Fantastic Lad on Mon Jan 27, 2003 at 06:53:03 AM EST

They string you up for posting stuff like that. I know. (And I suspect you do as well.) You wrote a very delicately worded and non-committal essay to avoid exactly the kind of treatment I'm about to subject myself to right now. . .

I noted a couple of gaps in your info which may or may not have been intentional. You might want to look up something called Quinunclidinyl Benzilate, or BZ. --Developed in the late fifties in the, made LSD look like a side show.

Also, you left out HAARP, Cell phones, 60 htz electrical power (which I tend to think is without question one of THE all time most clever control methods in current use!); Robert O. Becker's book, Cross Currents has a section explaining the biological mechanism through which 60 htz EM increases the absorption rate of naturally occurring Lithium across the blood-brain barrier. Thought provoking stuff! --Or perhaps, thought inhibiting stuff. . .

Also, Sodium Benzoate, the nearly ubiquitous food preservative, is an interesting substance which has managed to escape definitive study and control, but over which the original founder of the American FDA, Harvey Wiley, lost his job in part due to his refusal to bend to lobbyists' regarding the acceptance of. Very little is available on this, but a couple of studies suggested that the stuff causes a variety of conditions, including hyperactivity among small children. --And another, from a gay community research effort, which criticizes Sodium Benzoate for a variety of AIDS-like symptoms; the logic being that Sodium Benzoate as used in lubricants is absorbed through tissue membranes in the anus, which are known to be many, many times more able to absorb chemicals directly into the blood stream than when the same chemicals are ingested normally. Interesting stuff!

Uttering the word 'Fluoride' is another unacceptable gaff to make in any discussion where you don't want to upset the girlfriend. Supposedly, aside from its toxic qualities regarding bone tissue, Fluoride collects and calcifies in certain areas of the brain diminishing the abilities of the Melatonin producing gland, which in healthy brains, (of which there are very, very few these days), regulates dream and sleep cycles, as well as psychic third-eye stuff. But like I said, don't bring that up in polite company unless you enjoy getting a foot up your ass.

Another favorite includes Tobacco. --Apparently, when you don't mix in all the hundreds of bullshit additives the cigarette companies use, when you use ungenetically altered leaves, and when you don't program the subconscious with endless images and associations to Cancer. . , well Tobacco is apparently both harmless and powerfully helpful in raising one's awareness to energy and psychic phenomenon. --Incidentally, next to the Americans, the Nazis were the first and most aggressive in the fight against tobacco use. Hmmm.

And of course, there are the artificial sweeteners which appear in every fourth food product and which slowly melt your brain as they break down into wood alcohol, and which again, you don't want to bring up in public around your girlfriend's friends.

I can't think of any other methods of general population mind control at the moment, but there are certainly others. --The individual effect of any or one or two being not overwhelmingly significant, but when you add them all up, you get a nation of drooling idiots. . .

Anyway, thanks for your story!

-Fantastic Lad

Retina scanner (none / 0) (#64)
by Jyda on Mon Jan 27, 2003 at 09:01:00 AM EST

If you purchase the scanner you linked to with the hope of getting a retina scanner, you'd be disappointed. It's a network vulnerability scanner.

Could this be used to save Israel? (1.50 / 4) (#66)
by crunchycookies on Tue Jan 28, 2003 at 10:02:53 AM EST

Currently Israeli soldiers sometimes feel guilty after a hard day of slaughter and oppression. Some are even refusing to take part. With anti-guilt pills this would no longer be a problem. They would be enthusiastic parts of the Israeli killing machine. This would even help them to implement the Israeli Final Solution.

Biometric technology would also be useful in Israel. It could be programmed to identify the "lower races". Currently they use identity cards and special license plates to do it. This is inefficient and the Palestinians have sometime refused to participate. They have been known to forge documents in their fight against Israel. They just don't understand that it is in their best interest to cooperate.

Mind implants would be the ultimate savior for Israel. If all Palestinians could be implanted then they could be made to understand that Israel has a right to do what they are doing. That the Palestinians have no right to oppose Israel. The Palestinians could be made to appreciate their jobs at the bottom of society. They would be eternally grateful to their masters. No one would complain and everyone would be happy.

Of course, we in America would also need the anti-guilt pills to make us feel better about all this.

Speaking of MK-Ultra (none / 0) (#70)
by phybre187 on Thu Jan 30, 2003 at 11:12:59 PM EST

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that it was the CIA and the SFPD during Operation Midnight Climax that introduced San Francisco to LSD, and now they're spending all sorts of money to ostensibly find those underground LSD labs and destroy them?

Some points, though:

(from here, which was linked to in the article)
Unknown to those present at the meeting, Gottlieb had aquired a quantity of LSD and secretly wanted to test it. Spiking Olson's drink with the LSD, he passed the bottle around and sat back waiting for results. Olson, an outgoing personality who loved practical jokes, soon began to suffer jarring side effects. One of those present at the meeting, Ben Wilson, later recalled that Olson 'was psychotic'.
This is misleading. Gottlieb slipped everyone LSD at that outing. Including himself, I believe. Olson was the only one who suffered a psychotic break.

It's pointless for me to pick apart kpaul's article point by point, but that he links to this piece alone should be enough to destroy any credibility that the article as a whole may have. Richard G. Gall is being extremely selective about the points he does and does not mention, and many of the things he says are misleading almost to the point of being lies. Others simply are lies. I've read a lot myself about MK-Ultra from widely varying sources, and its goal was never specifically that of "mind control" even if such a term *could* be reasonably defined. The CIA has been researching all sorts of drugs for all sorts of reasons more or less since the agency was first chartered. They're probably the single biggest reason that mind-altering substances are both easily available in this country, and criminalized.

Moving along:
The project had grown out of an earlier secret programme, known as Bluebird, that was officially formed to counter Soviet advances in brainwashing.
There were never any "Soviet advances in brainwashing". The concept of "brainwashing" was actually coined by a journalist. The identity of that journalist now escapes me, but it was purely a scare tactic designed to make people even more afraid of the evil godless Red Commies over in backward Soviet Russia where the party finds YOU! (sorry. had to.)
In reality the CIA had other objectives. An earlier aim was to study methods 'through which control of an individual may be attained'. The emphasis of experimentation was 'narco-hypnosis', the blending of mind altering drugs with careful hypnotic programming.
This was never a serious goal of the CIA. It was never more than idle wishful thinking. In reality they were probably (using some basic logic) trying to determine if these drugs were in any way useful in an interrogation environment. There's really no such thing as a "truth serum". The trick is this: Make John Q Public believe there is such thing as a truth serum, then if you need to interrogate him, give him LSD or something else that will distort his perception of reality. While he's under the influence, stage some kind of terrifying eye-candy coupled perhaps with constant background laughter and the repeated phrase "You told us everything". The next day, when he comes down, resume interrogation tactics, under the assumption that he already told you everything. Now he'll probably spill everything he knows, since he assumes he already did and you're just trying to get him to repeat it. This scenario is just off the top of my head, so forgive me if it sounds crude.
The scope of the project was outlined in a memorandum dated January 1952 that ominously asked: "Can we get control of an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will and even against fundamental laws of nature such as self preservation?" The race was on to create a programmable assassin!
Journalism of the lowest caliber. What the author fails to mention are all the responses that such a memorandum would have received. Such as "That is not feasable, mister Director. Let the scientists worry about the science." or something to that effect. The program, as already indicated ad nauseam, was never seriously intended to do any of these incredible things such as create some kind of "programmable assassin". But the phrase certainly generates readers, does it not? Programmable assassin! Programmable assassin! Programmable assassin!
A crack CIA team was formed that could travel, at a moments notice, to anywhere in the world. Their task was to test the new interrogation techniques, and ensure that victims would not remember being interrogated and programmed. All manner of narcotics, from marijuana to LSD, heroin and sodium pentathol (the so called 'truth drug') were regularly used.
Once again, you have truth peppered with flat out lies. "Crack CIA team" certainly has a sensationalist ring to it, neh? Of course the author never explains what "programmed" means. Nor is it explained how THC, LSD, heroin, or sodium pentothal can make a person forget that they were abducted, subdued, interrogated, and "programmed". But it does invoke vivid images of sane people walking into a warehouse, and coming out zombie killers. If only such things were really possible!
Despite poor initial results, CIA-sponsored mind control programmes flourished. On 13 April 1953, the super-secret project MK-ULTRA was born. Its scope was broader than ever before, and only those in the top echelon of the CIA were privy to it. Official CIA documents describe MK-ULTRA as an 'umbrella project' with 149 'sub-projects'. Many of these sub-projects dealt with testing illegal drugs for potential field use.
Point by point:

  • The programs were not "mind control programmes".
  • What is the "top echelon" ? Is that to say that everyone who worked on the project, down to the lowest lab assistant was in the "top echelon" ? The statement is ambiguous, and therefore meaningless.
  • It had 149 sub-projects. Okay. So what?
  • It's noteworthy that few of the relevant drugs were illegal in 1953, so the author is guilty of a false anachronism.
    • LSD wasn't made illegal until 1966 or 67, depending on if you mean in the state of California or federally.
    • Cannabis was made illegal in 1937, but that never included research purposes.
    • Heroin (diacetylmorphine, since 'heroin' is actually a brand name) was made illegal in 1924, but that has certainly never stopped the CIA from procuring it, trafficking in it, or involving it in research.
    • Sodium Pentothal (thiopental, since 'pentothal' is actually a brand name) is a barbiturate, and is currently a Schedule IV substance. Schedule IV is defined as "low potential for abuse", "currently accepted medical use in treatment", and "may lead to limited physical dependence or psychological dependence". That means that it's still quite legal for most purposes.
  • The article also doesn't yet mention that mescaline, methamphetamine, and various other amphetamines were also looked into:
    • Mescaline was researched by the Navy in 1947 under the code name "Project Chatter". They got the idea from the Nazis, who gave it to prisoners at Dachau and recorded the effects. It wasn't made illegal in the US until 1970. If you are a member of the Native American Church you can still legally consume it today under special conditions.
    • Not only were amphetamine and methamphetamine totally legal during MK-Ultra, but American soldiers were given amphetamine (and you may remember reading about this fairly recently, in the Air Force, too) as standard issue during the Korean War. Today, amphetamines and methamphetamine are Schedule II. This means they are still valid research substances.
So of all the substances mentioned, only heroin would actually have been an illegal research chemical in 1953.
Others dealt with electronics. One explored the possibility of activating 'the human organism by remote control'. Throughout, it remained a major goal to brainwash individuals to become couriers and spies without their knowledge.
This is a total lie. This is the speculation of a previous bad journalist repeated as fact by a bad journalist.
When it was formed in 1947, the CIA was forbidden to have any domestic police or internal security powers. In short, it was authorized only to operate 'overseas'. From the very start MK-ULTRA staff broke this Congressional stipulation and began testing on unwitting US citizens.
For once, the author has a valid point. But he makes up for it by suggesting that this kind of blatant disregard for the Constitution is somehow unique to the CIA, when in fact every branch of the government is equally guilty of it since the beginning of World War 1.
One particularly odious project was run by Dr Harris Isabel, Director of the Public Service Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky - a facility specializing in drug abuse. Asked by the CIA to discover a range of 'synthetic' drugs, Isabel began experimenting on captive black inmates. Anxious to please his CIA bosses he daily fed his guinea pigs large doses of LSD, mescaline, marijuana, scopolamine and other substances. In exchange for participating in the experiments, the inmates received injections fo high quality morphine, sometimes getting 'shot-up' three times a day, depending on their co-operation. Brought before the Senate subcommittees in 1975, Isabel saw no contradiction in providing hard drugs to the very addicts he was employed to cure.
My knowledge of this event is somewhat thin. Someone feel free to give me evidence to the contrary, but I believe Isabel only used lifers and volunteers as guinea pigs, and thus had no obligation to society to "cure" them of anything.
Following public outrage, the CIA announced it had ceased its mind manipulation programmes.
More bad journalism. This suggests the CIA itself agrees or agreed that the project ever involved "mind manipulation" when in reality this is just the term the author is using in an intentionally misleading way. The CIA *did* announce that it had put MK-Ultra to bed at this point, however. And...
Victor Marchetti, a CIA veteran of 14 years who turned 'whistle-blower', exposed this to be untrue.
Indeed it was discovered that they hadn't even slowed down their research despite public outrage. They simply directed attention away from it more effectively. What, they should stop potentially useful research just because it got some bad publicity? Psh. Yeah, and I bet you think if you voice your outrage at Echelon it'll get shut down, too.
In 1977, Marchetti said the CIA claims to have ceased were a cover story. Under scrutiny, the agency were quick to downplay the success of MK-ULTRA - claiming no real advances were achieved.
They claimed no real advances were achieved because... no real advances ever WERE achieved. It's not a fucking vast conspiracy at this point. They genuinely never got any kind of truth serum, or mind control drug, or anything out of this. Surely some useful data on the structure and function and possible implementation of various drugs was gained, but that's only to be expected.
Miles Copeland, another long-serving CIA officer disputed this. Speaking to a reporter, Copeland revealed that 'the congressional subcommittee which went into this sort of thing only got the barest glimpse'.
Have you ever tried explaining research chemistry to a congressman? If so, you'll understand why they only WANTED the barest glimpse. If you haven't, it should still be easy for you to infer why a congressman wouldn't give two shits about the particulars of this project and just want the bottom line. This is a common courtesy, not a coverup.
Another source within the intelligence community says that after 1963, CIA efforts increasingly focused on psychoelectronics. Narcohypnosis had been drained dry.
Ooh! Another big intimidating word! Psychoelectronics! Keep them coming, Gall! (He does keep them coming, but since the rest of this article does not deal with MK-Ultra, I'll stop here. I think I've made it more than clear how much salt you should take before you pass judgment on anything Gall or kpaul for that matter claim in these articles.)

Good post. (none / 0) (#71)
by kpaul on Thu Jan 30, 2003 at 11:40:41 PM EST

Thanks for taking the time.

To be honest, I myself wonder how LSD could be used for mind control. I do think television is perfect for it, though.

Maybe I shoulda dug more and focused the article on just MK Ultra - showing those who think it was ominous and those that think it was just another government program.

I do think I was right in putting the link in the article. I wasn't agreeing with it, just showing what some thought. Some more background on Richard G. Gall would have admitedly been a little more prudent on my part perhaps.

[It's pointless for me to pick apart kpaul's article point by point]

Not to me. I'd like to hear it if you have the time. Might help improve the next submission in the series...

2014 Halloween Costumes
[ Parent ]

Technologie of transfering data by touching (5.00 / 1) (#72)
by proch on Sat Feb 01, 2003 at 06:17:11 AM EST

I just want to comment the idea of a tracking device that is implemented or just wared.
Did you know that there is a device that uses the electricitiy of a human body to transfer data (those are stored in a simple device) just by touching each other?
What you need additionaly is a verification (electronic float of a person ??), anyway it is a way to give data to a person without handing out something (like a disc).
I thought it was a pretty nice peace of technology, but reading this article and having in mind a possible link to other here posted technologies it is ...... what ever you feel about it.

There will be problems (5.00 / 1) (#73)
by Nucleus on Sat Feb 08, 2003 at 05:17:09 PM EST

I think there are going to be some major screwups, invasions of privacy and a loss of civil liberties with this kind of technology. The economic freedom provided today in the US, which has allowed the country to become the worlds only Super Power was successfull because it is built around that human emotion we all know as greed. That emotion and others (some of an arguabley destructive nature) are a part of every human.

At the end of the day, these technologies will be controlled and run by the same "greedy" people who will do almost anything to move up in society...adding to the trouble, the business (wo)men at the top generally know nothing about the technology and concern themselves only with (greedy) shareholders while the politicians are at the mercy of the majory who also know next to nothing about technology... I've already seen commericials and such discussing, if not promoting, implantable chips... sad.

Socialism for needs, capitalism for wants

Technology of the New World Order - I | 73 comments (54 topical, 19 editorial, 0 hidden)
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