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[P]
Disposable Ipods

By cestmoi in Technology
Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 11:55:37 AM EST
Tags: Hardware (all tags)
Hardware

Jason bought an Apple Ipod 18 months ago. His battery died and this is what he did.


Ipods are a hot item but before you buy one this Christmas you should know about Casey Neistat's friend, Jason's experience. He bought one 18 months ago and enjoyed it. That is until the battery died. The Ipod is a well engineered package - so well engineered it's not clear how you open it to replace the battery. So he called Apple Tech Support. Here's the call transcript:

Apple: Thank you for calling Apple, my name is Ryan. May I have your first name please?
Jason: Jason
Apple: Alright, what seems to be the issue today?
Jason: I have an Ipod that I bought about 18 months ago and the battery is dead on it?...
Apple: Hmmm hmmm
Jason: I was wondering what I should do.
Apple: What? The battery is dead on the Ipod?
Jason: That's correct.
Apple: The only way..
Jason: It runs down within an hour.
Apple: Ok...If the battery ... how long...how old is it?
Jason: About 18 months old.
Apple: 18 months? Ok...It's past its year which basically means there'll be a charge of $255, plus a mailing fee...to send it to us... to refurb it...to correct it...but at that price, you know, you might as well go get a new one...
Jason: Apple doesn't offer...
Apple: No.
Jason: Apple doesn't offer a new battery for the Ipod?
Apple: No, because the battery is internal. It's not...

Casey Neistat documented Jason's response to the bad news. Jason's response was to cut a stencil which reads

IPOD'S UNREPLACEABLE BATTERY LASTS ONLY 18 MONTHS
and spraypaint the stencil on any Ipod ad he could find in New York City.

As I was watching the video, I kept on thinking that I couldn't believe that Apple was stupid enough to repeat that big a mistake. In the late 80's, Apple introduced a cheap Mac called the Mac-LC. They crippled it by putting a 32 bit chip on a 16 bit bus and cut costs further by soldering the clock battery to the motherboard. When the battery died some 18 months later, Mac-LC owners were told they had to buy a new motherboard. That policy didn't last long in the face of the resulting customer backlash.

To check this story, I called Apple tech support and asked if it was true that a dead battery meant a $255 dollar trip (plus mailing fee) to the factory. No, that's not true said the Apple rep. I asked what the fee was and was told to send it to an unspecified someone outside of Apple to fix it. When I asked again, the rep said he'd look up the fee. About a minute later he came back and said, the fee is $100 (plus mailing.) The $255 was to replace the Ipod.

I asked, "How long has the $100 fee been in place?"
"About a week", the rep replied.

I was wrong, Apple was stupid enough to repeat the same mistake. Unless, of course it wasn't a mistake. $100 is quite a bit to replace a $10 battery. Apple gets free publicity, even if it's negative, and then "atones" by lowering an outrageously absurd fee to an absurd fee. All because what is ordinarily a consumer replaceable item requires a trip to the shop. Either poor design or "razor blade" marketing. Hard to tell which it is.

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Poll
Charging $100 to replace an Ipod battery is...
o Poor design. The battery should be replaceable by the customer. 52%
o Brilliant. Apple guarantees itself a $100 (plus mailing fee) every 18 months! 5%
o Poor design. Apple should suffer the costs and replace it for free. 13%
o I'd do the same thing if I had thought of it. 4%
o He bought an Apple product. What did he expect? 23%

Votes: 184
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o documented
o Also by cestmoi


Display: Sort:
Disposable Ipods | 170 comments (152 topical, 18 editorial, 4 hidden)
I wonder (2.00 / 15) (#1)
by transient0 on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 11:50:02 AM EST

whether or not it is conscious irony that they are using quicktime on their anti-ipod site.
---------
lysergically yours
Not just Quicktime. (2.85 / 7) (#17)
by Akshay on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 01:17:28 PM EST

If observe the video closely, you'll notice that they clearly stated that they made the video in iMovie.

[ Parent ]
Too smart for his own good (2.30 / 33) (#2)
by rusty on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 11:54:07 AM EST

The guy who was clever enough to make that stencil and that video (highly entertaining, by the way) was nevertheless not smart enough to do a google search for "replacement ipod battery," which would have gotten him this site as the number one result.

New iPod battery: $50.
Spectacularly overreacting in front of the whole world: priceless.

____
Not the real rusty

I don't know... (2.66 / 12) (#4)
by Run4YourLives on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 12:04:20 PM EST

I don't think he's overreacting... it's not unreasonable to expect the manufacturer to offer the same battery replacements that are carried elsewhere.

Even worse, the fact that there are (as you've pointed out) ways to replace an ipod battery yet Apple insists that there are not, borders on fraud in my mind.

Any way you look at it... piss poor customer service.

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]

Nothing new (3.00 / 8) (#7)
by Easyas123 on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 12:14:56 PM EST

however. If I listened to the manufacturer every time I needed somthing simple fixed, instead of fixing it myself, or finding the cheaper alternative, I'd be broke.

***********************
As the wise men fortold.
[ Parent ]

yeah... (2.00 / 8) (#20)
by Run4YourLives on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 01:56:52 PM EST

but when you think about it, that's ridiculous.

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown
[ Parent ]
No, that's business.... (none / 1) (#142)
by ckaminski on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 03:27:15 PM EST

You think that Ford wants you to hit a junkyard to get a replacement sway bar or stabilizer for your car?  Do you think they want you using rusty, possibly fatally injured by also possibly perfect parts to replace your car when they'll sell you the same thing for twice the price?  Hell no.  

It's to catch the 25% of people who are too lazy to do anything but trust the vendor, and not penny pinch.  And yes, there's some percentage of customers that are like that.  They'll pinch every dime up front, but they'll let themselves get gouged on each subsequent transaction...

:-/

[ Parent ]

Shouldn't Apple sell just the battery? (2.42 / 7) (#8)
by cestmoi on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 12:16:30 PM EST

If you avail yourself of Apple's $100 service, you don't get your Ipod back. They swap it for another unit. That means you have to reload all your songs - a non-trivial exercise.

Why doesn't Apple just sell the battery and be done with it?

What are the chances that the video pushed Apple into offering the battery service instead of the replacement service?

[ Parent ]

A "non-trivial exercise"? (2.25 / 4) (#37)
by damiam on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 04:34:13 PM EST

You mean like plugging in the FireWire cable and waiting 10 minutes for it to sync?

[ Parent ]
10 Minutes? (none / 1) (#39)
by Xcyther on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 04:42:05 PM EST

I dont know about you, but i dont remember the last time i could transfer 10gb+ worth of data to anything in 10 minutes.

_________________________________________
"Insydious" -- It's not as bad as you think

[ Parent ]
10gb in 10 minutes is only 17MB/s [nt] (none / 1) (#58)
by treat on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 07:49:47 PM EST



[ Parent ]
only theoretically \nt (none / 1) (#79)
by Xcyther on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 11:52:18 AM EST



_________________________________________
"Insydious" -- It's not as bad as you think

[ Parent ]
Okay, do the math.... (none / 0) (#143)
by ckaminski on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 03:29:17 PM EST

disk drive:  ~20MB to ~30 MB/s
firewire:    ~60MB/s max.

It's possible.  Probable?  Who knows...  Depends as much on the fragmentation of your drive and the strength of the Van Allen Belts as it does the engineering in the computer... ;-)

[ Parent ]

Sync time varies (none / 0) (#146)
by cestmoi on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 06:15:30 PM EST

10 minutes to sync? Depends on the iPod size. From Apple's web site:
With its FireWire connection, iPod can transfer a full 30GB of music from your Mac or PC in about 45 minutes
45 minutes wasted because a battery isn't easily changeable. That may be OK with you but I'd rather spend 45 minutes doing other things than re-loading songs.

[ Parent ]
Stop trolling (none / 0) (#150)
by damiam on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 08:20:30 PM EST

You don't have to sit there doing nothing for 45 minutes. Besides, I'd be suprised if Apple didn't copy your songs over for you. For $100, they'd better.

[ Parent ]
45 Minutes (none / 1) (#161)
by TheSleeper on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 01:45:24 PM EST

45 minutes wasted because a battery isn't easily changeable. That may be OK with you but I'd rather spend 45 minutes doing other things than re-loading songs.

Christ, the situation we're discussing is one where you send your iPod off to Apple and don't get the replacement. And now you're complaining about an extra 45 minutes on top of that? It's not like you have to be sitting there actively working with it for the whole 45 minutes. Plug the thing in and go do something else.

You're really desperate for something to get outraged over, aren't you?

[ Parent ]

Not so . . . (2.50 / 4) (#10)
by glor on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 12:31:25 PM EST

After this story posts, it will be the first Google result for "ipod battery".

--
Disclaimer: I am not the most intelligent kuron.
[ Parent ]

Should we expect this? (2.84 / 13) (#18)
by sllort on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 01:32:47 PM EST

Should we expect companies to rape us for accessories? Should we expect to pay $50 for a cable to hook our cell phone up to the serial port (which we can also order for $5 online)? Should we expect to pay $75 for a serial-to-GPS cable that some poor guy had to reverse engineer and bring to market a compatible plug for and then create an entire freaking co-operative business model to sell them? Should we assume that lack of Internet access and Google skills means the consumer gets bent over a table?

No.

What we should assume is that the accessory-product interface is proprietary, and anyone who tries to use google to buy a new battery or cable or whatever is a circumventing access control. Somewhere out there is a story about a cell phone manufacturer whose batteries contain a keyed interface to prevent competition for parts, but I can't seem to find the link.

--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]

Nokia (1.85 / 7) (#24)
by rusty on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 02:56:24 PM EST

Nokia uses a keyed interface for its batteries to prevent the existence of an aftermarket for them. FWIW, I think it's sleazy, but I also own a Nokia phone, so go figure.

I'm not sure what your argument is here, actually. I wasn't making any point about the appropriateness or lack thereof of Apple's battery policies. Just pointing out that you can get a new battery for fifty bucks, which somewhat undercuts the assertion that the iPod's battery is unreplaceable.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

Nokia, that's right. (3.00 / 11) (#31)
by sllort on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 03:46:03 PM EST

My point was that I'm sick of companies playing the "fuck-the-customer" game with aftermarket replacement parts. In this case it's Apple doing everything it can to screw Ipod customers, but the Garmin and Sprint examples are pretty good too: exploiting your existing customer base by charging vastly unreasonable prices for parts (or sabotaging the interface).

My point was it's bad behaviour and it deserves to be publicly mocked, regardless of whether a third-party alternative exists. The reason that a company can go about actively attacking its own customers in this way is that it expects not to be held accountable - which is why I'm going to vote for any article which does hold them accountable, rather than blame the customer for not doing more research.

November 24th is cell phone # portability day, a.k.a. the day I tell Sprint they can take their entire fuck-your-customers business plan and shove it up their ass.
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]

That I agree with (3.00 / 5) (#43)
by rusty on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 05:03:54 PM EST

And the argument that the iPod's design is boneheaded and apparently conceived to fuck the customer is one I can wholeheartedly agree with. I suppose if the guy gets a few less people to buy them based on an (at best) prtly-true claim, I have no real problem with that.

And screw Sprint. "Nationwide coverage" my ass. Sprint's coverage sucks.

____
Not the real rusty
[ Parent ]

iPods use Li-Poly cells (none / 1) (#69)
by Gully Foyle on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 06:43:35 AM EST

The only major drawback of Li-Po cells is that they're dangerous. If not treated right, they have a tendency to explode.

If you weren't picked on in school you were doing something wrong - kableh
[ Parent ]

I intend to screw Sprint within the hour (none / 0) (#77)
by sllort on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 11:06:54 AM EST

That said, I don't want to endorse anyone making false claims about a product, but as long as he clarifies that he's only talking about Apple's actual support for the product, have at it. I'm less offended by the design (which was probably done by engineers under the gun) than by the support decision by some manager to tell customers whose battery has died to buy a new iPod.

FWIW I wasn't really disagreeing with you, just venting.
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]

hey now. (none / 1) (#90)
by Wah on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 05:16:34 PM EST

And screw Sprint. "Nationwide coverage" my ass. Sprint's coverage sucks.

If you don't cut that out my $10/mo slighly faster than 56k wireless connection (only works in cities) might go away.

Oh wait....[reads post again]...Yea, coverage...

umm. right.  More coverage, and keep that flat 'net fee.
--
kewpie
[ Parent ]

Why not? (none / 1) (#47)
by losthalo on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 06:38:20 PM EST

The photo equipment industry has been doing it almost as long as it's been around as far as I can tell.

[ Parent ]
Agreed. (none / 2) (#78)
by sllort on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 11:07:37 AM EST

Fuck them, too.
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]
context for question (none / 0) (#89)
by Wah on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 05:06:28 PM EST

Should you expect this?

from Apple?

Yes.
--
kewpie
[ Parent ]

Looks to me... (2.50 / 4) (#28)
by laotic on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 03:29:02 PM EST

the ipod battery is far from irreplaceable - there's a connector dangling from its end.

Is opening a consumer appliance already considered a taboo in the U.S.?

Sig? Sigh.
[ Parent ]
Poor design (2.75 / 4) (#30)
by cestmoi on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 03:40:13 PM EST

This site warns you not to use a screwdriver to open the case. They will however sell you the necessary tools and battery so you can replace the battery yourself.

The point is that when Apple shipped the Ipod, they made zero provision for the consumer to change a component they knew would wear out within the device's lifespan. Suggesting that customers either hack their machine, and possibly damage it in the process, or pay Apple an exorbitant fee to replace an inexpensive part is wrong.

[ Parent ]

did they have a production line prototype... (none / 0) (#98)
by Wah on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 06:23:15 PM EST

...for 18 months before they released it?

Is this 18 month thing pretty firm, or do some people get 36 months out of it?  Some people break the case before the battery dies?  Or the buttons?  LCD?

Or does it more depend on daily use?

Because, now that I think about it.  Someone who puts up a web site of him spraypainting billboards (btw, I think I know some of those corners and will check it out this weekend) and then edits it, etc, with a mac, all about a little device, probably used the thing pretty close to 16 hours a day.  Unless he turned it off while sleeping.

Who knows.

But Apple is a hardware company, now using Free Software (of sorts), so expect to be smacked for stuff like this.  

Or hack a way around it and make a few bucks undercutting their exhorbitant price.
--
kewpie
[ Parent ]

Come on now (none / 0) (#137)
by The Smith on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 06:43:18 AM EST

Apple was quite well aware what the typical power consumption of the ipod was likely to be, they were quite well aware how long the battery would last under those conditions, and they were quite well aware that this would be longer than the warranty period. I don't think you can disagree with those assumptions.

Based on that, it seems that they made a conscious decision to provide no easy method for replacing the battery, which is strange, since I'd have expected them to use the mobile phone or printer strategy and make a business out of selling consumables.

[ Parent ]

apple wankers get what they deserve (1.73 / 38) (#3)
by Dirty Sanchez on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 11:54:47 AM EST

If they pay a premium for low-quality shit just for its perceived "coolness", they deserve to lose.

Wow. (none / 0) (#59)
by Kasreyn on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 07:58:29 PM EST

Been a while since I've seen "lose" used in the hackish sense here on k5.


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
And that's why I wouldn't get an Ipod. (2.00 / 7) (#9)
by Fon2d2 on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 12:17:13 PM EST

Well besides the outrageous upfront price I mean. It's got a sleak design, I have to admit, but that battery issue just kills it. First time I ever heard that I was like WTF? Battery life is a key issue for portable electronic devices. Now although I wouldn't expect to be able to choose what type of batteries a device uses (hopefully not NiCd), I would never expect not to be able to replace them. Seriously, WTF?

Life or lifespan? (none / 1) (#92)
by Merc on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 05:31:44 PM EST

The main problem with most portables isn't the battery lifespan, but the amount of time one charge lasts. An iPod can last days on a charge, depending on how you use it. The lifespan of the battery may be 18 months, depending on how it is used, but when they double in capacity every 18 months, is the iPod really expected to be something you use for your whole life?



[ Parent ]
If it's bigger than my collection, who cares? (none / 0) (#102)
by pin0cchio on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 06:56:41 PM EST

when they double in capacity every 18 months

And store what on them? Production of major-label CDs is still a labor-intensive task, and most people's CD buying budgets do not double every 18 months along with the data capacity of iPod players. Besides, the iPod arguably has no substantial non-infringing use in many jurisdictions that don't recognize private copying of copyrighted recordings and copyrighted underlying musical works as a fair use.


lj65
[ Parent ]
It's a hard drive... (none / 0) (#155)
by Merc on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 02:06:20 PM EST

So maybe your Linux kernel sources, or your home movies, or every email you've ever received, spam or not. But if you're just talking the MP3 player side of things, you could get all kinds of free MP3s off the 'net if you look, or you could save your own music to the thing. I don't know. If you don't have a legal use for the device, then don't buy it. Or simply do what I do, ignore stupid laws.



[ Parent ]
Damn! (1.06 / 16) (#14)
by psidragon on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 12:51:40 PM EST

I wanted to vote for this article. Howcome it recorded a -1 vote?
-
Curiosity is a great motivator. Fear is greater still.
A fool and his money... (1.79 / 24) (#19)
by NaCh0 on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 01:56:27 PM EST

Apple repeats this pattern over and over and over. You have to be a retard to buy anything from them. Why people consistantly defend this junk is a mystery. Especially when there is no improvement in sight.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.
Incorrect Poll option (1.83 / 6) (#21)
by Builder on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 02:19:51 PM EST

A poll option states

Poor design. The battery should be replaceable by the customer.

It is replaceable by the customer. Nothing to see here. Move along.
--
Be nice to your daemons

Wasn't designed to be changed (2.80 / 5) (#23)
by cestmoi on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 02:36:32 PM EST

If you read these battery replacement instructions, it's clear Apple didn't intend for the battery to be replaced. The battery is glued to the hard drive and you have to very carefully pry the case open with a screwdriver to get at the battery.

The case simply wasn't designed to ever be opened.

[ Parent ]

What is worse (none / 1) (#33)
by 0x29a on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 04:01:06 PM EST

The 2nd gen iPod, while somewhat complicated, at least has the benefit of the battery being located directly under the outer casing.  This makes for easier access to the battery.

The 3rd gen iPod has tucked the battery underneath the hard drive and cable chassis.  The 3rd gen's battery is much harder to get to.

[ Parent ]

Low Cost Replacement (1.62 / 8) (#22)
by Bios_Hakr on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 02:35:26 PM EST

Go to your local BestBuy and get an I-Pod as close to yours as possible.  Open the box and take out new I-Pod.  Place your I-Pod in the box.  Return box to BestBuy.  Problem solved...sort of.

It does solve the problem completely (none / 2) (#26)
by theboz on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 03:15:12 PM EST

The store you bought it from will have to deal with the hassle of returning it to Apple, Apple will have to deal with fixing it and then selling it as a refurbished unit at best, or completely eating the cost. The customer and the retailer don't lose out on anything more than time and the associated costs of spending that time on Apple, who loses the most out of the situation.

I guess this is why I have a Sony MP3 CD player. Sure, I can't load 10GB of MP3s on it, but it works quite well with a CD full of MP3s, as well as playing regular CDs with no problems. I also paid like $70 for it, which means that I can go spend my money on better things that let me replace the batteries.

Stuff.
[ Parent ]

RE:It does solve the problem completely (none / 0) (#96)
by saltmine on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 06:11:29 PM EST

If you could hold 10 - 40 GB of MP3's, all in your pocket on a device that is thin, reliable and small enough to fit in tight pockets as well as have software to interface with it, not to mention it can act as a bootable disk and a regular firewire harddrive, you would see what you where missing. Also, it has hardware you can add on as well as more features being added via software all the time. Is it worth $300.00?  Fuck Yeah.

[ Parent ]
MP3 CD players (none / 1) (#101)
by pin0cchio on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 06:51:51 PM EST

I have a RioVolt brand MP3 CD player.

If you could hold 10 - 40 GB of MP3's

Which would equal about 170-680 hours of music at 128 kbps MP3. I don't own that many CDs, and besides, a single battery charge won't last nearly that long, even on an Apple iPod player.

all in your pocket on a device that is thin, reliable and small enough to fit in tight pockets

Depends on your definition of "tight".

as well as have software to interface with it

You mean like Nero Burning ROM?

not to mention it can act as a bootable disk

Cheap $500 PCs can boot from CD-R but often can't boot from FireWire.

Is it worth $300.00?

Not to somebody who's unemployed while no entry-level programming openings appear in the classified ads of The News-Sentinel.


lj65
[ Parent ]
Not really (none / 0) (#152)
by theboz on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 10:59:22 PM EST

If you could hold 10 - 40 GB of MP3's

I don't have this many MP3s. Most music is crap, so there is very little that I want to have. Even then, a CD can hold enough for me to be able to change it easily when I need to. It's not like compact discs are made of bricks.

all in your pocket on a device that is thin

My CD MP3 player is about as thick as a CD and a AA battery underneath it. It fits easily in one of my coat pockets.

reliable

It must not be too reliable if the batteries die after a year and you can't replace them too easily. I'm content to burn through a pair of AA's every month.

have software to interface with it

I don't need software to interface with a normal CDROM with MP3s on it. I simply pull out the disk and put it into any computer I want or into my car stereo which is also an MP3 player. I can use whatever CD burning software I want and don't have to depend on a specific company to produce the software I would want.

not to mention it can act as a bootable disk and a regular firewire harddrive, you would see what you where missing.

Most computers these days can boot off of CDs, but even then I don't need it. I don't really have much use for a portable hard drive either. I can simply transfer things over a network and not have to carry equipment around if I need it.

Is it worth $300.00? Fuck Yeah.

To you, perhaps. To me it's a waste just to listen to music. I can buy a round trip plane ticket to visit my parents across the country for that price. I can probably even get a special deal on a flight to Mexico for that price. People have different ideas of value, so I can see why it might be worth it to you and not to me.

I am glad you like your purchase, but for me it's simply not worth it to pay $300 for something "cool" when I can pay less than $100 for the functionality that I would use.

Stuff.
[ Parent ]

It's fraud (none / 2) (#29)
by cestmoi on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 03:31:34 PM EST

Doing that is fraud. Especially if you're substituting models, i.e., an old 5 gig model for a newer 20 gig model. The older case style alone will give you away, not to mention the serial numbers.

Not a good idea.

[ Parent ]

obviously, but (2.00 / 4) (#75)
by tps12 on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 10:44:09 AM EST

I think his point was that it's easy to do that without getting caught, and it's not really immoral. It is illegal, but only because our fucked-up government will look after the huge corporations instead of us.

[ Parent ]
Not Immoral? (none / 2) (#107)
by DoorFrame on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 10:36:53 PM EST

You're stealing something you didn't buy because your product stopped working after 1.5 years when the warrantly said it would last only one year. It's absolutely immoral and it is stealing. This has nothing to do with the government favoring one entity over another... what would you have them do, legislate a longer lasting battery?

[ Parent ]
Whoa! (none / 0) (#166)
by Happy Monkey on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 07:57:21 PM EST

If the warantee said it would only last one year, I suspect many fewer people would buy it.
___
Length 17, Width 3
[ Parent ]
I think you're about as wrong as you can be (none / 2) (#111)
by cestmoi on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 11:12:40 PM EST

and it's not really immoral.

That's bull - it's theft. Not only that, you make it harder for people with legitimate gripes to be heard because the vendor has difficulty distinguishing between a customer who got a defective product and a customer who is trying to screw the vendor.

[ Parent ]

Might not be so easy. (none / 1) (#83)
by pschap on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 02:45:19 PM EST

Some products have the s/n of the unit inside printed on the box and I've seen Best Buy people explicitly check the number against the box before taking it back. (I've also seen that if you yell at them enough they will take it back anyway to get rid of you, but its still iffy.) I don't know if the IPods are among the products that do this though...

--
"In 1991, we had almost nothing. We'd only begun building cocks. After just 10 years, we have a very robust, active cock."

[ Parent ]
CARS article (2.83 / 6) (#25)
by Stereo on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 03:02:54 PM EST

The CARS had an interesting article about this. They claim that Apple replaces the battery for $90 and sends replacements for $49.

kuro5hin - Artes technicae et humaniores, a fossis


Look at the date of the article (none / 1) (#27)
by cestmoi on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 03:19:52 PM EST

The article was posted this morning. Until "about a week ago," the fee was $255. Also, the "as little as $49" replacement isn't from Apple. The linked article is a bit disingenuous.

[ Parent ]
Sir, INCORRECT (none / 3) (#34)
by sllort on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 04:01:30 PM EST

hey claim that Apple replaces the battery for $90 and sends replacements for $49.

Actually Apple's PR weasel spun today's damage control as follows:

Apple will replace the iPod battery for the equivalent of US $99, or you can get a replacement and install it yourself for as little as US $49.

So yes you can get a $50 replacement, but not from Apple. The PR monkeys are pointing out here that Apple has been underpriced by their competition (and has not yet used the DMCA to put them out of business).
--
Warning: On Lawn is a documented liar.
[ Parent ]

Why buy an iPod? (1.64 / 17) (#41)
by tofubar on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 04:47:32 PM EST

Getting suckered by Apple hype is lame. I've used the new OS X and whatever and while it's alright, it's not enough to justify paying for a computer that costs more and does less.

Because (2.66 / 6) (#45)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 06:17:16 PM EST

It's SHINIER than the other MP3 players. Apple is all about shiny things.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

umm, isn't the iPod their new music player? (none / 2) (#51)
by Kasreyn on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 06:46:06 PM EST

as in, the tiny portable thing with enough HD space for loads of mp3's?

As opposed to something that would actually use OS X?

Personally, this has less to do with "Apple hype" than it does with "tiny, portable mp3 player with craploads of storage space". To me, at least previous to this article's disturbing news, that was very enticing indeed.


-Kasreyn

P.S. forgive me if the iPod actually DOES use OS X. I can't imagine why it would need an OS, though.


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
Ummmm.... (1.72 / 11) (#46)
by Talez on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 06:30:18 PM EST

I'm sorry but a hundred bucks for Apple to refurb your iPod thats OUT OF WARRANTY seems like a perfectly good price to me.

If you feel that one hundred bucks is a bit of a rip might I suggest that you crack the case open and replace the battery yourself?

Si in Googlis non est, ergo non est

I totally would've cracket it, he's a wimp [nt] (none / 2) (#49)
by sim18 on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 06:41:35 PM EST



[ Parent ]
Indeed (1.80 / 5) (#50)
by Talez on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 06:43:24 PM EST

Here's the instructions for replacing the battery on the iPod.

It would take me approximately 5 minutes to do that swap. A retarded 2 year old with a screw driver could probably do it.

Si in Googlis non est, ergo non est
[ Parent ]

that's because (2.14 / 7) (#76)
by tps12 on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 10:50:59 AM EST

You're used to being screwed over by big companies.

[ Parent ]
Sure, screwed over (none / 3) (#91)
by Merc on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 05:29:30 PM EST

So you prefer to build your MP3 players from parts you order from Digikey? What? You don't? Why? Oh, so it costs more to build them from scratch than it does to buy a device built in mass quantities from a big company!

The fact is, that for a very low price you're getting a FW hard drive, an MP3 player, a great UI, and a few other nifty things. Sure, they could have made the battery replacable, but that might have added $20 to the cost. It's a design decision. If this is a concern to you, you should have found out before you bought it, then voted with your dollars.



[ Parent ]
And how would he have found out? (none / 3) (#108)
by cestmoi on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 10:46:30 PM EST

If this is a concern to you, you should have found out before you bought it, then voted with your dollars.

When I called Apple's store to research this story, that was exactly the first question out of my mouth - "how long does the iPod battery last?" The clerk did not know.

It's due to people talking about it that it'll become common knowledge, at which point people probably will vote with their dollars. Look at the poll and see for yourself how many people think Apple screwed up on this issue. Only 7% think what Apple did is ok.

[ Parent ]

Bias. (none / 0) (#123)
by pmj on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 09:42:48 AM EST

Except your poll is fucking bullshit. Each choice has an OBVIOUS bias. There is no "I don't see anything wrong with this." choice.

pmj
"Physicists know about the world" - Richard Phillips Feynman
[ Parent ]
Tell me. (none / 0) (#132)
by mindstrm on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 05:48:28 PM EST

IN what way did Apple screw up?

- The unit is under a 1 year warrantee from purchase. This is very clearly stated
- AppleCare, which extends the warrantee, among other htings, is something like $50 for the ipod. This is also clearly stated. You do not have to buy it at purchase time either, you can sign up any time before you  warrantee expires.

- This only affects a percentage of ipods.. many have batteries that last a lot longer. Like any product, not all parts are equal, some will fail. That's why you have a warrantee program.

[ Parent ]

No (none / 1) (#138)
by TheOnlyCoolTim on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 06:52:34 AM EST

Warranties are supposed to compensate for unplanned for defects in manufacturing or parts. Not for something that's just designed, for no good reason, to fail within a few years.

That's the point. Apple designed the iPod to fail. I doubt Apple was dumb enough to think the rechargable battery would last forever. Apple doesn't consider the battery a replaceable part, and it really isn't to the average user who will never open anything up.

So they've taken a device that would, with a properly designed replacable battery, probably have a lifespan of at least a decade, and turned it into a disposable product.

It's the same ripoff that those overpriced disposable cameras use.

Tim
"We are trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death."
[ Parent ]

Batteries die (2.00 / 10) (#48)
by Sleepy on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 06:41:25 PM EST

Rechargeable batteries don't last forever. None do. Why do people present this as strictly an iPod-problem, when the same thing happens to myriads of other devices out there. Batteries don't last infinitely, and there's not much to be done about this.

This being said, I do believe that batteries should be easier to replace. But given the iPod's design, it's not hard to see why this is not the case.

And by the way: third party battery replacement services for iPods have been out there for almost as long as the iPods have been.



The Ipod is poorly designed (2.00 / 7) (#54)
by cestmoi on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 07:18:26 PM EST

Nobody expects batteries to last forever. The point is that the device should have been designed so that changing the battery is not a big deal. Mailing the Ipod back to Apple just to have a battery changed is absurd. Apple is screwing its customers and you're saying "there's not much to be done." I disagree.

If enough people make it clear that it's poor design, Apple, and other companies, may think a little harder the next time they design a consumer product. On the other hand, if too many people suck it up, things will remain as they are - screwing the customer.

[ Parent ]

"Given the iPod's design"? (none / 2) (#56)
by Kasreyn on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 07:36:53 PM EST

What about its design prevents it from having a hinged compartment for a pair of AA batteries, like any other portable music player?


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
Uh, it uses a Li-Poly battery (2.20 / 5) (#68)
by Gully Foyle on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 05:55:03 AM EST

They hold way, way more charge than commercial AAs. A damn sight more expensive too.

If you weren't picked on in school you were doing something wrong - kableh
[ Parent ]

The battery guts don't matter (2.40 / 5) (#72)
by cestmoi on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 09:32:41 AM EST

It doesn't matter what is inside the battery when it comes to designing replacement access. A battery access panel doesn't know from carbon-zinc to li-ion to li-poly batteries.

Apple should have designed the Ipod so that changing the battery was about as trivial as changing flashlight batteries.

[ Parent ]

Switching LiPos isn't trivial (3.00 / 6) (#81)
by Gully Foyle on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 12:18:41 PM EST

LiPo batteries have a bit of a tendency to explode if mishandled. Mostly this happens on charge, which won't happen with an iPod, since the charger is smart enough. If you put an unbalanced lipo pack into an iPod though, it's much more likely to go boom.

I don't believe that Lithium Polymer batteries should be user servicable by the general public yet. Making it difficult to crack the case of an iPod reduces the amount of idiots you expose to setting themselves on fire (and your potential litigation load). It's much better to charge those guys the $100 to replace the battery. Leave the user replacements to the people who aren't afraid of a little tinkering.

If you weren't picked on in school you were doing something wrong - kableh
[ Parent ]

"since the charger is smart enough" (none / 0) (#133)
by levesque on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 05:56:34 PM EST

This seems to imply that if the charger malfunctions the batteries might explode.

Does apple warn people of this?

[ Parent ]

Uh... is this a trick question? (none / 1) (#93)
by Merc on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 05:36:39 PM EST

The part of the design that doesn't have any hinges?

Look, they could have made the LCD a drop-in module. They could have made the keypad user-changeable. They could have made the batteries changeable. They didn't do any of this. They aren't deceptive about it either. It's not like they paint a fake battery compartment on it. The device is simply not meant to be opened. If you weren't capable of figuring this out when you bought it, well that's your problem, isn't it?



[ Parent ]
Not my problem; theirs. (none / 1) (#118)
by Kasreyn on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 03:20:26 AM EST

since they've lost the sale I was going to be. Was planning on getting one. Not planning on it any more.

I don't really care how hard a Li/Po battery is to change, or what design factors were involved, or what other excuses they come up with. If a small, portable electronic device doesn't have a long-lasting user-replaceable power supply, it's not worth my money. Apple's loss.


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
[ Parent ]
umm (none / 1) (#151)
by crayz on Sun Nov 30, 2003 at 10:48:02 PM EST

It seems pretty clear from other comments here that it is user replaceable with a 3rd party $50 battery. What, really, is the big deal?

[ Parent ]
Palm V series (none / 1) (#94)
by molo on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 05:37:31 PM EST

My Palm Vx's battery life has been slowly sinking.  It used to be that it would last about 3 weeks with normal use.  Now I have to charge it weekly with light use.  Rather annoying.

And you can pretty much forget about replacing the battery on a Palm V.  The aliuminum case has NO SCREWS.  To open the case, you have to use a hairdryer to heat up the back of the Palm and get the glue to be slightly viscous.  Don't make the palm too hot, or the LCD touchscreen will melt together.  Don't leave it too cold, or when you pry up the case, you'll bend it.

Then when you're inside you'll see the proprietary battery format needed for this thing.  Here's a breakdown of the disassembly:

http://www.performancepda.com/helpcenter/PalmVandVxTakeApartScreenRemovalMotherb oardButtonsCaseTakeApart.html

I royally fucked up my GF's when I opened it trying to repair the LCD.  The thing wouldn't boot afterwards.  Rather than give up her address book and everything, I got her a new m500, which actually has screws in the case.

I'm just waiting for my Vx to finally croak.  Maybe I'll get a handspring for a replacement.

-molo

--
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind. Pause for a second and remind yourself that: "There, but for the grace of God, go I." -- Harley Hahn
[ Parent ]

So what? (2.55 / 9) (#53)
by techwolf on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 07:07:16 PM EST

Open up your ipod and then go find a battery that fits inside and then replace it yourself. Cheap, Easy and geeky. all three good things rolled into one. geez you non-tech types are lazy!


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

Lithium Ion Batteries (2.50 / 4) (#74)
by Bad Harmony on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 10:36:07 AM EST

It's advice like yours that leads to engineers making lithium ion batteries non-accessible to the end user. Just find a battery that fits inside? Why not give the kiddies some razor blades to play with?

Being a "geek" involves a willingness to do some research to understand the technology, and its associated dangers, that you are messing with.

Considering the technical expertise of the average end user, Apple made the right choice.

5440' or Fight!
[ Parent ]

Is the iPod any different than a cell phone? (none / 2) (#112)
by cestmoi on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 11:23:28 PM EST

Being a "geek" involves a willingness to do some research to understand the technology, and its associated dangers, that you are messing with.

How is this any different than buying a cellphone battery? You have a cellphone, you find a battery that's advertised as compatible, push a tab and swap out the old battery. No geekiness required. Why should an Apple customer have to be a geek to swap a battery?

[ Parent ]

Compatibility (none / 0) (#113)
by Bad Harmony on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 01:39:15 AM EST

How do you know that the battery is compatible? Because "some guy" on the web or eBay said so? Cell phone manufacturers already have problems with counterfeit and third-party batteries that use substandard parts and may not have the protective circuits and features of OEM batteries.

Lithium batteries are high-performance batteries that can fail in new and exciting ways, involving explosions and burning debris. They are also more mechanically delicate than older battery technologies. They are not the robust and generic items that we have become accustomed to with NiCD and NiMH cells.

Any Bozo can go down to the local electronics store and buy standard NiCD and NiMH cells off the shelf. Want a lithium ion or lithium ion polymer battery? Here is one vendor's policy:

Lithium-ion prismatic and polymer cells can be assembled into packs with safety circuits by Ultralife or authorized pack assembly centers that have been approved for battery pack design and assembly. To assure that these cells and safety circuits are properly designed and assembled, Ultralife does not generally offer cells or batteries in "ready-to-ship" configurations prior to review of the application and approval by Ultralife or an authorized assembler.
Other battery manufacturers have similar policies. They want to review the application, design and safety circuits before they ship you any parts. That should tell you that these are not generic batteries.

See A Guide To The Design Of Large Format Lithium Polymer Battery Packs And Their Application In Portable Electronic Devices for some of the design considerations in using these batteries. Also see Safety Precautions for Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer Batteries.

5440' or Fight!
[ Parent ]

Are we talking about the same thing? (none / 1) (#116)
by cestmoi on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 02:40:22 AM EST

Your first link points to a manufacturer's reference - something I would need to read if I was to decide to manufacture Li-Ion batteries. The second document tells me what to think about if I'm designing a device that uses Li-Ion batteries. Neither case applies to what we're talking about here.

Now contrast that with what I just did. I pressed a tab and opened my Canon digital camera, pulled out its Li-Ion battery and stuck a fresh one in. Took about 10 seconds. And I know the one I just put in is compatible because I bought the battery from Canon. No exploding camera. Why should the iPod be any different?

[ Parent ]

Design Choices (none / 1) (#120)
by Bad Harmony on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 05:56:57 AM EST

As I see it, Apple's engineers had two choices. They could have designed the iPod to use an integrated internal battery, or they could have designed the iPod to accept a user installable battery pack. They decided on the integrated internal battery. The points in favor of the integrated internal battery:
  • Smaller case.
  • Better case strength and integrity.
  • Less weight.
  • No need to design, manufacture and stock battery pack.
  • Less cost.
  • Better reliability.
  • Simpler operation for end user.
  • No need for support to deal with third-party battery packs.
Battery packs are not a cost-free feature. As someone who collects old calculators, I've seen the many ways they can fail after 20+ years of use. User accessible battery compartments are a major source of problems. Replacement battery packs quickly become difficult or impossible to find after a model is discontinued. Even "standard" batteries may become hard to find after a number of years. Internal batteries eventually fail and are often a real pain to replace.

There is no free lunch. Every design choice has its pluses and minuses.

5440' or Fight!
[ Parent ]

grumble... (none / 2) (#125)
by tgibbs on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 09:57:25 AM EST

Why should an Apple customer have to be a geek to swap a battery?

In my day, being a geek meant something. These days, anybody with the smarts to use a screwdriver or Google seems to qualify.

[ Parent ]

News or not? (none / 2) (#61)
by Rot 26 on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 09:26:33 PM EST

I think it's pretty well known that the iPod has no easy way to change the battery. Most people I know who have one realize this and the problem that it might cause later. However, I was not aware that it only lasted 18 months -- that does seem pretty short, also the tech support interchange seems to make it pretty clear that this seems to be a case of planned obsolescence.

On the one hand this really bothers me because it almost seems like Apple created an insidious plan to screw consumers. On the other hand, it's really pretty common place to have planned obsolescence in electronics.

On a third rambling note, I'm a lot less annoyed by planned obsolescence in physical electronic products than I am by planned obselescence in software. I wouldn't mind so much buying a new iPod each 18 month period or paying for a new battery to hack into it, but never would I pay for Microsoft's office upgrades every 18 months -- there's never any huge difference between each new version of Office and the old version, the biggest difference is that they've always changed the file format so that it's not entirely compatible with the old version!
1: OPERATION: HAMMERTIME!
2: A website affiliate program that doesn't suck!
Mac LC motherboard battery (none / 2) (#62)
by sanjiseigen on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 10:09:28 PM EST

My Mac LC's battery is easily removable and replacable with a standard one. Perhaps you are thinking of a different model? BTW, I do agree that it is crippled hardware-wise, but at the time it was the cheapest machine you could pick up with colour and expansion.

There were a variety of LC Macs (none / 1) (#63)
by cestmoi on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 10:47:03 PM EST

I'm fairly sure it was one of the LC models - if I recall correctly, there were two or three variants of the LC line. There was the original LC, followed by the LC-II, and I think, an LC-III. They were designed as Low Cost Macs and I recall the comments at the time that Apple had shaved costs a bit too much by soldering the battery to the motherboard. A few pennies saved by Apple, cost the buyer several hundred dollars at battery replacement time. I was a Mac developer at the time and my PC-owning friends would routinely rib me about what a bonehead design flaw it was.

[ Parent ]
+1FP, because it isn't fiction [nt] (1.00 / 5) (#66)
by StormShadow on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 01:16:10 AM EST



-----------------
oderint dum metuant - Cicero
We aren't killing enough of our [America's] enemies. Re-elect Bush in 2004 - Me
12/2003: This account is now closed. Password scrambled. Its been a pleasure.


ditto (none / 1) (#67)
by dimaq on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 05:35:49 AM EST



[ Parent ]
As a 9-month-old iPod owner, this concerns me. (none / 1) (#70)
by Milo Minderbender on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 07:26:02 AM EST

But then again, anyone that spends that much for an MP3 player just for it's design and Apple compatibility (e.g. playing iTunes Music Store songs), will probably be the kind of person to upgrade gadgetry every 18-24 months anyway. Hell, for the price you bought your 18-month-old iPod, you can get one with 10 times the storage now, anyway.

--------------------
This comment is for the good of the syndicate.
no wonder (none / 1) (#158)
by tantris on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 11:28:42 PM EST

This is sick. 9-month-olds should not be allowed to own a iPod! - No wonder, Apple has to make them so hard to open.

[ Parent ]
-1 Fiction (none / 3) (#71)
by iheartzelda on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 09:31:35 AM EST

Click

I guess the battery *is* "UNREPLACEABLE" ... if you don't have a screwdriver.

Replaceable (2.80 / 5) (#73)
by mr100percent on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 09:48:01 AM EST

Where's the link?

Apple iPod battery replacement service for $100 (plus $7 for shipping and handling) includes labor, parts, and a 90-day guarantee on materials and workmanship.

You can buy a generic battery and install it yourself (YES, you can). They are available on the internet. You void your warranty. Basically they're charging you for shipping both ways, labor and parts. At a hundred bucks, I think it's pretty reasonable.


--Never trust a guy who tattoes his IP address to his arm, especially if it's DHCP.

You don't get your ipod back so what about iTunes? (none / 2) (#82)
by cestmoi on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 12:40:34 PM EST

When you ship the ipod into Apple for battery replacement, they send you another iPod. For some, that may be ok, but what about people who used iTunes to load their iPod? Itunes has a 3 copy limit.

I don't use iTunes so I don't know if that copy limit comes into play when you reload the iPod Apple returns to you.

[ Parent ]

more de-FUDing... (none / 2) (#86)
by rantweasel on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 04:36:07 PM EST

No, the copy limit is about the number of playable copies that can exist.  If you have 3 computers registered with the music store and you copy the AACs to another machine, they wont play.  I don't belive that the iPod counts towards the copy limit, as the limit specifically refers to computers.  Either way, you can auth and/or deauth a device easily enough.  The auth is tied to the account that bought the AACs, and you can have multiple accounts authorize a single computer.

Seriously, do you work for Rio or something?  The mis-information is getting out of hand...

[ Parent ]

It was intended as a question. (2.50 / 4) (#110)
by cestmoi on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 11:03:03 PM EST

I stated "I don't use iTunes so I don't know if..." The iPod is clearly an intelligent device - whether it's counted as a computer or hard drive, I don't know. Hence the question. Judging from your "I don't believe...," you don't know either.

You mention deauth as a solution. Can you deauth a device you don't have in possesion? If you can, then what's to keep you from cloning a song, deauthing the receiving device and doing so repeatedly? Presumably, you can't do that otherwise deauth would completely circumvent the 3 copy limit. So that means, that you have to know before you send your iPod off to get the battery changed that you're not going to get your iPod back and deauth ahead of time. How many iPod users do you think will get burned by that particular gotcha? All because Apple made changing the battery a pain in the ass.

And no, I don't work for any of Apple's competitors. Do you work for Apple?

[ Parent ]

relax (none / 1) (#136)
by mr100percent on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 12:44:32 AM EST

relax dude, you can copy onto as many iPods as you want. They don't need to be authorized or deauthorized, so you don't have to worry.

--Never trust a guy who tattoes his IP address to his arm, especially if it's DHCP.
[ Parent ]
Unreplacable? (2.14 / 7) (#84)
by it certainly is on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 03:40:03 PM EST

1. Open iPod. If you are a fucking idiot and cannot open the beautiful casing, you deserve to be charged $100.
<p>
2. Change the battery.
<p>
3. Close iPod. Again, if you are a stupid, cretinous moron, don't bother. Set up a website to bitch and whine about something that's your problem entirely.
<p>
The point is, consumers would rather have a beautifully designed casing than one that is intentionally cripped day-in day-out in order to make a task performed every one and a half YEARS simpler. If you want a super-chunky, too big for your pockets MP3 player, go buy something else.

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.

Please don't spread facts (3.00 / 4) (#141)
by decaf_dude on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 01:51:29 PM EST

Can't you see we're having a field day discussing a misleading article while having no clue whatsoever about the subject itself?

Pfft! Next thing you're gonna say it's not necessary to buy the battery from Apple and that you can get an aftermarket one for fraction of OEM cost. Don't you have any idea what impact that would have on this discussion? It would destroy it because there really wouldn't be anything to talk about. You insensitive clod!


--
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=89158&cid=7713039


[ Parent ]
$49 and follow these directions (2.88 / 9) (#87)
by macemoneta on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 04:45:00 PM EST

http://www.ipodbattery.com/ipodinstall.htm

The same site sells the replacement batteries for $49 (for both the original and slim models).

They even give you the screwdriver to open the case; in 5 minutes you are back in service.

This is really a non-issue.

Rechargeable batteries (none / 2) (#88)
by tgibbs on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 04:54:08 PM EST

In fact, this is frequently the case with products containing built-in rechargeable batteries. Every such product I've owned has showned a substantial decrement in charge time after a year or so. And for many such products, the batteries either cannot be replaced at all (this is true for my Norelco electric razor, which costs about the same as in iPod) or else the battery replacement must be done by the manufacturer at a substantial fraction of product replacement. Of course, if you are at all technically adept, you can usually find a replacement battery on the Internet and replace it yourself for a fraction the cost.

How much? (none / 0) (#95)
by molo on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 05:46:33 PM EST

Did you really spend hundreds of bucks on a razor?  Please excuse me while I laugh at you. (unless it was a gift)

-molo

--
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind. Pause for a second and remind yourself that: "There, but for the grace of God, go I." -- Harley Hahn
[ Parent ]

Yes (none / 2) (#97)
by John Miles on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 06:16:52 PM EST

The Norelco 6885XL in particular is a pretty awesome razor, worth the $200-$300 or so it cost me. The batteries are still going strong after several years (which is unsurprising, since they're NiCds with a good charge-control system and a user who knows how to take care of NiCds).

It's actually one of my favorite examples of industrial design. The entire product just works. When this razor eventually conks out, I'll buy another one just like it as soon as I can get to the mall.

The IPod situation, on the other hand, is inexcusable. Lithium rechargeables suck ass. They should be replaceable. (And they are, if you're good with an XActo knife... do a Google search for 'ipod battery').

For so long as men do as they are told, there will be war.
[ Parent ]

Um, it doesn't use OS X. (none / 1) (#99)
by hbiki on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 06:27:03 PM EST

And you can't surf the web or check your e-mail with it. Once again, the internet proves the inherent stupidity and ignorance of humanity.


---
I take all knowledge to be my province.
- Francis Bacon
biki.net/blog/
Yeah it does (none / 1) (#103)
by tofubar on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 08:44:54 PM EST

The newer generation ones have OS X.


[ Parent ]
Um. NFW! (none / 0) (#168)
by hbiki on Sun Dec 21, 2003 at 06:00:50 AM EST

The newer generation ones have OS X.

The iPod OS was written by Pixo Inc, which is now owned by Sun.

http://www.atmasphere.net/mt/archives/003296.html

I have a 3rd Gen iPod and it AIN'T OS X. Its not even Darwin (the kernel).

They have NOT changed the OS since the 2nd and 3rd Gen -- unless you want to provide me wiht a link that proves otherwise.


---
I take all knowledge to be my province.
- Francis Bacon
biki.net/blog/
[ Parent ]

"Disposable"? (2.75 / 4) (#100)
by Merc on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 06:29:46 PM EST

Disposable implies that people will throw it out. Do you really think that would happen? Do you think that anybody, on discovering that the battery on their old iPod no longer worked, and that it would cost money to repair, would just throw the iPod away?

Even if they don't know about iPod battery replacement, why wouldn't they just sell it at a garage sale, a newsgroup or on eBay? Someone who could just throw away an expensive device like an iPod deserves to lose the money.



Quoting the Apple Rep... (2.80 / 5) (#105)
by cestmoi on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 10:15:57 PM EST

"but at that price, you know, you might as well go get a new one..."

Sounds to me that up to a week ago, Apple's policy was that once the battery was gone, and given their absurd pricing scheme, you may as well buy a new iPod. If that isn't disposable, what is?

[ Parent ]

Toothbrushes? (none / 0) (#154)
by Merc on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 02:01:12 PM EST

Standard batteries, ball point pens, rasor blades... You know, the kinds of things that have no value when you're done with them? While your iPod might not work properly after a couple of years, you'd be pretty stupid to just throw it out. If nobody disposes of it when they're done with it, is it really disposable?



[ Parent ]
if you use win2k, dont uninstall iTunes, either. (2.33 / 6) (#104)
by Work on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 09:40:54 PM EST

Here's my horror story for this week:

So I d/led iTunes a few weeks ago onto my win2k box. I didnt use it much and wasn't terribly impressed so I figured I'd uninstall it (I noticed it running some services in the background, figured id clear up the memory).

So I did the usual uninstall thing which prompted a reboot. Well whatever, thats not unusual for programs that load drivers and the like.

Reboot fails. Instant exception errors on boot up. Even safe mode won't load - just reboots.

Now mind you, I had a paper due. Fortunately I had saved it to a floppy and used a friends machine to print it out. Otherwise i'd have been fucked 8 ways from sunday.

Finally today I get on another machine and start researching the exception being thrown up by the kernel. Oddly enough, the most common cause of it was a naughty cd burner driver being put on the system.

Through win2k's recovery console I started browsing through the drivers that are loaded on boot, and making a few lucky guesses I disable the offender. Reboot...it works. Finally.

iTunes apparently replaces or re-activates its cd burning driver with a version incompatible (its a very very old one, and according to m-soft's knowledge base, known to be bad for years now) with win2k whenever you uninstall iTunes.

Thanks apple.

your paper (none / 1) (#139)
by seanmeister on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 10:45:46 AM EST

was it a really good paper? ;-)

[ Parent ]
Yeah. (none / 0) (#162)
by aphrael on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 02:28:13 PM EST

I ended up having to reformat a hard drive after installing iTunes on win2k. The drive was having trouble already, though. No trouble whatsoever on XP, tho.

[ Parent ]
Where to get batteries (2.88 / 9) (#109)
by phr on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 10:59:04 PM EST

They're special lithium ion batteries and they're not cheap. However you can get them for $49 from ipodbattery.com. Those guys also sell batteries for Compaq PDA's, Palm V's, and similar devices with supposedly non-replaceable batteries. However, it's better to not buy such devices in the first place. The non-replaceable battery is a huge minus for the iPod as far as I'm concerned.

Dumbest Fucking Meme Ever (1.00 / 7) (#114)
by SPYvSPY on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 01:52:23 AM EST

Second only to the dumbest fucking K5 article ever (i.e., this one). That Apple support call is an obvious fake, and yet you present your transcript as if it's not. Also, that fucking hippy retard in the video needs to get a job. Maybe then he would be able to pay for a new iPod. I've had two iPods (I gave the old one away to a friend) and they're both still just fine. This is anti-Apple FUD, and you are the just another fucking legion of the anti-Steve for propogating it. BAHHH!!! Fucking morons!!!!
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Obvious fake? (none / 2) (#115)
by cestmoi on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 02:23:36 AM EST

Funny, I wondered about the same thing. So I called Apple to verify the video's content. Until last week, Apple did indeed charge people $255 to replace the battery.

As to being anti-Apple, I'd say that's about as far from the truth as you could possibly be. However, I don't find myself saying, "Oh it's Apple who screwed up. It's ok then."

[ Parent ]

It's still a fake. (none / 3) (#127)
by SPYvSPY on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 12:26:11 PM EST

It's not an Apple rep on the line. I dare you to prove it is. As for the $255 charge, please explain why all my iPods still work just fine. Maybe people should treat them like the delicate little bastards that any HD-based music player is inherently going to be.
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[ Parent ]

Why does this bother you so much? (2.60 / 5) (#128)
by cestmoi on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 01:58:01 PM EST

I don't know whether it's an Apple rep or not nor do I have any reason to believe that the video is a fake. Surprising as it may be to you, your unsupported assertion that it's a fake doesn't carry much weight.

As to why your iPods are still working - it's a simple matter of statistics. Some batteries last a year, some last two and there'll probably be the odd battery that lives to 3 years. You just happen to have longer lived batteries is all.

What matters here is that batteries die and Apple chose to design the iPod as if it was disposable. The third party vendors didn't get into the game until it was clear Apple wasn't going to do anything for the customer. Please note that the $100 fee is a new thing as of last week. It's a tacit admission by Apple that they screwed up. And given the iTunes issue, it's not clear Apple has worked out all the kinks. Up until last June when PDASmart started carrying the battery, anyone whose battery died was pretty well screwed.

The question you might ask yourself is why you feel beholden to defend Apple's tactics in this? Do you think it's ok for a consumer company to say "fuck you" when a product dies after 15 months of use? Why is defending planned obsolescence so important to you that you feel compelled to insult people who don't think it's an acceptable business tactic?

[ Parent ]

Because the problem is greatly exaggerated (none / 0) (#144)
by SPYvSPY on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 04:46:47 PM EST

And the video is anti-Apple FUD, seized by the anti-Steve masses and aimed at Apple's most successful product. Did your iPod die? Do you have an iPod? I do. Mine still works. Everyone I know that has one still has one that works.
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[ Parent ]

Disposable? (none / 0) (#160)
by TheSleeper on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 01:28:59 PM EST

What matters here is that batteries die and Apple chose to design the iPod as if it was disposable.

If that were the case, then the battery wouldn't even be rechargeable.

Making the battery replaceable would have added bulk and weight to the package; Significant bulk and weight, if they went with a solution that used standard AAs, or some standard-sized lithium battery. Since the tiny form-factor is a big selling point for the iPod, I think they made the right choice.

[ Parent ]

Dude, get a Dell! (none / 0) (#117)
by mveloso on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 03:13:20 AM EST

Dude, get a Dell instead! Then you can peruse the beauty and superiority of XP and the Windows Media Player!

And - I'll take the iPod off your hands while I'm at it! Is it a 5-gigger or a 10-gigger? Do you take paypal? I figure it's worth about $20 to you :)

Dell has the same problem... (none / 1) (#122)
by cestmoi on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 09:21:24 AM EST

From the Dell Jukebox manual
You cannot remove the battery.


[ Parent ]
not true (1.85 / 7) (#119)
by the77x42 on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 04:00:39 AM EST

iPods are great. I have been using mine for 2 years now... never any problems. For the past 10 months I have used my iPod at least 3 days a week for 2 hours each day (it's a long bus ride). I recharge it when I get home.

My friend bought the exact same iPod from the same dealer and his battery died after 1 year under the same usage conditions. He phoned Apple and was told that it was a defect with the iPods and even though the warranty was up, Apple shipped out a new iPod (a newer model at that!).

So, what have we learned? Don't go pissing on everyone's lawn just over one phone call. And no, this doesn't happen to ALL iPods.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

certainly... (none / 1) (#135)
by blisspix on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 10:08:33 PM EST

it seems somewhat ludicrous that this guy went so overboard over one single phonecall.

I bought an iBook last year, it was plagued with a reed switch problem that I diagnosed one week after purchase that took 1.5 years and 4 service visits to fix. It's technology. It's not perfect. Yeah, I'm really pissed at Apple because of this (and of course I called them to complain), but I'm not going to plaster the city with 'Don't buy iBooks!' grafitti.

[ Parent ]

Knee-jerk reactions and jealousy, the lot of you (1.11 / 9) (#121)
by decaf_dude on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 08:48:33 AM EST

I have a 30GB iPod and I'm very happy with it. It's a lot of money, but worth every penny IMHO. If you don't have the dough to splash for an iPod, buy a cheap plastic toy RCA or Radio Shack sells.

Rechargeable batteries are not something that needs to be replaced every so often. To have a hinged hatch on such a well-designed item would just ruin it and would no serve any practical purpose. The case is not glued/welded shut and can be opened with the right tools, and replacement batteries are available both from Apple and aftermarket suppliers.

As for the price of battery from Apple, it has since dropped, as is the case with all electronics. Heck, even the price of iPod has dropped since it was first introduced. See the pattern emerging here?

Bottom line: iPod is sleek and well-engineered and there's (obviously) plenty of people ready to pay the premium to own the device. Those who can't or won't can bitch about it (like the lot of you do) or shut up and buy what's in their budget.


--
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=89158&cid=7713039


Not enough decaf (2.25 / 4) (#124)
by cestmoi on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 09:53:09 AM EST

Those who can't or won't can bitch about it (like the lot of you do) or shut up and buy what's in their budget.

Bit presumptuous of you isn't it? As it happens, last year, I purchased two of them as gifts. I did not, however, know at the time that battery replacement was going to be such a pain to deal with. I can assure you that one of the people I gave the toy to isn't capable of switching an iPod battery. So he's stuck with having to pay someone to do something that ought to be brain dead simple.

I have a mild tremor otherwise I would change the battery for him. I can, despite the tremor, change the batteries in my cellphone and camera. And contrary to what some have posted elsewhere, the batteries do not explode when I do that.

[ Parent ]

you, sir/madam, are a moron (1.25 / 4) (#126)
by kstop on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 10:36:30 AM EST

It can't really be that well-engineered if you need to take it apart to replace the battery. Unless you're referring to the engineering of the marketing campaign that convinces affluent idiots like yourself to pay over the odds for them.

[ Parent ]
You, sir/madam, are obviously not an engineer (none / 3) (#129)
by decaf_dude on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 02:20:41 PM EST

Battery hatches introduce a weak point in the casing, something that is subject to accelerated wear and tear. As such, it is avoided unless absolutely necessary.

Even if the battery life is 18-24 months (should be much higher for a Li-Ion polymer battery, unless you're an idiot and are abusing the battery and not following a good charge/deplete cycle), that still doesn't warrant introducing a weak point in what is designed to be a sturdy device. As I said, iPod can be taken apart given the right tools, it's not welded/glued shut. Were latter the case, I'd agree with you fully. It's not, and you thus fall into the knee-jerk/jealousy camp.

HAND.


--
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=89158&cid=7713039


[ Parent ]
a screwed-on back cover (none / 0) (#145)
by geigertube on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 05:35:40 PM EST

Would have solved all of these problems.

[ Parent ]
It's so unfair. (1.66 / 6) (#130)
by it certainly is on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 04:09:25 PM EST

My watch needs a special tool to replace the battery. Why couldn't the manufacturers put a hinge flap on it and make it take a pair of AA batteries, so it's really easy to change them? What about when the battery runs out in a couple of years? I'll have to throw the watch away, or pay a rip-off price to get it changed at a jewelers. What a RIP OFF.

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.

batteries (none / 0) (#148)
by Pretzels4GeorgeW on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 08:02:18 PM EST

Most watches wouldn't fit AA batteries. Some watch/jewelry stores will replace your watch battery for free if you bought the watch there. They don't have to be super expensive either. I have a watch that cost around $150 and it gets free batteries for ever. And they don't even ask for proof of purchase.

[ Parent ]
Okay, Look. (1.28 / 7) (#131)
by mindstrm on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 05:25:23 PM EST

1) The iPod line is not faulty. IT's not like they all go dead after 18 months. Some certainly do.

2) for $50, the guy had up until the day his warantee expired ( 1 year) to sign up for AppleCare, which among other things would have extended his warrantee another year, and certainly covered his dead battery.

Electing not to do this, like with any product, is a gamble on nothing going wrong, knowing it will cost you more to fix it if it does. Sorry Pal...

Now, if the majority of ipods go bad after 18 months.. apple DOES have a problem.. that's bad product management, and will be bad publicity... but seriously... what are they supposed to do, fix it? It was only guaranteed to work for 12 months, like lots of products.

devices with batteries should not be welded shut (none / 1) (#134)
by Lion on Thu Nov 27, 2003 at 06:52:00 PM EST

Especially one as expensive as an iPod. I wonder what customer response would Nokia or Ericsson get if their $300+ phones came with non-replaceable batteries.

[ Parent ]
It's not welded shut (none / 2) (#140)
by decaf_dude on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 01:45:25 PM EST

STFU if you don't know what you're talking about. iPod can be opened with a simple tool (flat plastic scraper or, if you don't care about scratches, a small screwdriver). Furthermore, battery is not soldered to the motherboard, it's connected with a regular multi-pin connector.


--
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=89158&cid=7713039


[ Parent ]
Something everyone should know about these guys. (3.00 / 7) (#147)
by causticmtl on Fri Nov 28, 2003 at 08:09:52 PM EST

Check this link out:

http://das.doit.wisc.edu/neistatsdirtysecret.txt

These guys aren't saints either.

Wait 'til Duracell figures this out (none / 0) (#149)
by mmsmatt on Sat Nov 29, 2003 at 08:53:42 PM EST

Think about the possibilities:

Customer: Yeah, Duracell tech support? I put some AAs in my camera and they died.
Tech: For $200, we will re-furbish your batteries, change the expiration date, and put them in a new packaging. You'll think we sent you new batteries.
Customer: I shouldn't buy new ones?
Tech: Um, no... send money now.

So don't buy it (none / 0) (#153)
by proles on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 01:20:34 AM EST

Even though the iPod is worshipped by everybody, there are some decent alternatives out there.  The Zen jukeboxes, even if they are just iPod ripoffs, have come a long way.  The model I'm linking to features a "removable, high-capacity Li-ion battery".

But in any case, these are all still hard drive based so they'll likely die after a few years of frequent use anyway.  I'm still waiting for a better way to store memory.  Flash and such has the most potential, but it'll have to be much larger and much cheaper to be feasible for these sorts of applications.  I'm hoping that that happens sooner rather than later...
If there is hope, it lies in the proles.

Hard drives are fairly long lived (none / 2) (#157)
by cestmoi on Mon Dec 01, 2003 at 09:42:50 PM EST

But in any case, these are all still hard drive based so they'll likely die after a few years of frequent use anyway.

Hard drives are being speced with mean time to failure of around 300,000 hours or around 40,000 days. The weaker components are the switches and leds, and in iPod's and Dell's case, the battery.

[ Parent ]

True (none / 0) (#163)
by proles on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 06:57:11 PM EST

But most hard drives speced probably aren't carried around all over the place.  No matter how well these portable mp3 jukeboxes are designed, you've gotta bet the hard drives in them suffer much more wear and tear than hard drives sitting in stationary servers.

I'm no expert on the lifetime of switches and leds so perhaps you're right on that one, but I have had hard drives fail on me in much less than 40,000 days, so I know it can happen.
If there is hope, it lies in the proles.
[ Parent ]

Ironically . . . (none / 0) (#159)
by greenreaper on Tue Dec 02, 2003 at 03:34:16 AM EST

I've recently reinstalled (hard disk failure), so I clicked on the link, and up popped a request to get the quicktime plugin . . . from Apple's site. *g*

Apple: Well, at least they are pretty.. (none / 1) (#164)
by Montragon the Daft on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 01:52:10 AM EST

I'll be the first to admit that while Apple puts out some excellent products (I personally prefer their laptops), they are just another company trying to turn a buck wherever they can. These sort of actions from large hardware/software companies should be expected by now, you would think. This isn't even the first time they have done something similar (an earlier post describes the soldered in batteries of an old Mac.) I'm curious if they waited a certain number of years to try it again, just to see if it would work :P I'll bet any of you a whole ten dollars on the idea that they will do it again in the next 15-20 years.

This is so wrong, its not even funny. (none / 3) (#165)
by j_menezes on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 06:36:29 PM EST

Ive tried to keep quiet about all these posts on the iPod, how its horrible, how it doesnt use AAs, etc.
but this is just getting ridiculous.
As I was watching the video, I kept on thinking that I couldn't believe that Apple was stupid enough to repeat that big a mistake. In the late 80's, Apple introduced a cheap Mac called the Mac-LC. They crippled it by putting a 32 bit chip on a 16 bit bus and cut costs further by soldering the clock battery to the motherboard. When the battery died some 18 months later, Mac-LC owners were told they had to buy a new motherboard. That policy didn't last long in the face of the resulting customer backlash.
First of, The Mac LC didnt have a soldered-on battery, and never did.
the only ones that this was the case was the original Macintosh and the Macintosh 512k.
The battery on the LC was a 3.6V battery the size of half a AA, and was held down by a littel plastic clip. That battery in general lasts 2-3 years (4 on my own LC)
BTW, this is from an Apple Authorized Service Technician, not just someone who had a good luck with his LC.
also, the 68020 processor in the LC is a 32-bit chip, but with 24-bit memory addressing.
That aside, lets move on:
I was wrong, Apple was stupid enough to repeat the same mistake. Unless, of course it wasn't a mistake. $100 is quite a bit to replace a $10 battery.
The battery may consist of $10 of raw materials, but that does not mean that it will cost $10 to make, package and sell. And Apple DOES have a somewhat higher markup than other places. if 100 is too much for you, you can always buy an aftermarket one and install it yourself, jsut remember that your warranty just went byebye

And for those complaining on and on about not using something like AAs...
not only would you get HORRIBLE battery time, they would cost more over the long run, and be a worse environmental hazzard, when they get disposed of. and last ive seen, take a look at most PDAs.
palms, clies, iPaqs... they all have built-in non-user-serviceable batteries...
why not complain about those?
and while on the subject of complaining about batteries and their costs, what about laptops?
those batteries will start holding less charge after a while, check with most manufacturers (not jsut apple) to see how much a replacement battery is.
chances are, its somewhere between 100-250... to "replace a $10 battery."

ok, well, my rant is done for now

I think it's kinda funny. (none / 0) (#169)
by renton42 on Tue Jan 13, 2004 at 05:35:08 PM EST

The battery may consist of $10 of raw materials, but that does not mean that it will cost $10 to make, package and sell.
Quite right good sir. A 1200 mAh Lithium Polymer cell is $10.95. It may not be the exact form factor of the custom cell, but that does not justify the $38.05 price difference in my mind.

The $100 official replacement cost or the $50 DIY solution are both ridiculous to me as a consumer. I would much prefer a $15 replaceable cell based on an E-Tech 1200 inside some <= $4.05 molded case for ease of handling. I could bring several batteries with me on my car/plane trip, vacation, desert crossing or whatever.
This is deliberate hampering of consumer freedom in favour of pigopolist profit.
/me shakes a fist at Apple.

[ Parent ]
I had the same problem (none / 0) (#167)
by astroboysoup on Sun Dec 07, 2003 at 09:17:11 PM EST

I had the exact same problem with my iPOD except that I live in Australia and the costs very outrageous because it all had to be sent to Singapore. As modern as Australia is, it is still too backward in the scheme of things.
I'll win the lotto one day...
2 solutions (none / 0) (#170)
by jago25 on Wed Jan 14, 2004 at 06:23:47 AM EST

fix:

3rd party company allowed to manufacter replacement batteries.

OR

Just make them anyway and distributed from a 3rd world country

Disposable Ipods | 170 comments (152 topical, 18 editorial, 4 hidden)
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