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Kuro5hin Chopper: Everything That Can Go Wrong Will

By GhostOfTiber in Technology
Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 12:00:00 PM EST
Tags: Kuro5hin Chopper, car, mr2, Murphy's Law (all tags)

Well this weekend we dropped the engine out of the red MR2, tore it down to the shortblock, changed out the headgasket, and put it back together.

I had a restful sleep and the next day we took the 5SFE engine out of the white one and bolted the 3SGTE into it. I started it up, pressed the gas, and drove to the moon on the 10 billion horsepower I had. Then my penis got really big from working on cars and I had a lot of sex while drinking and smoking.

If you haven't been following the Diary Section, the tag for the back story is Kuro5hin Chopper.

That's how it should have gone. But when you mechanic alone, you're working on cars with MURPHY. You don't want Murphy working on your cars with you, he messes stuff up.

Skip to Tips and Tricks if you're not interested in a rough review of a 3SGTE teardown.

What really happened (in rough chronological order)...

Saturday: Get to the garage early with my buddy. He wants to take the Camry up there because it needs an oil change. Why he has to do that in a garage is beyond me, but whatever. We figure we'll have this engine tore down, rebuilt, and ready to go by this afternoon with enough time for him to just pull the drain plug and dump oil in the top and do a Grease Monkey oil change. Of course, problems arise.

When you take engines apart, I've found the best habit is to put bolts and nuts back on the engine hand-tight. This way you only have to line up accessories and parts with the engine, and the appropriate fastener is already hanging out waiting for you to use it. If you don't plan on taking the piece off again for another 100k miles, put some antiseize on it and tighten the living hell out of it. Omitting the antiseize is bad, you will regret it later when you break all the bolt heads off.

Suspension - This took forever to get off the engine after dropping the engine and suspension out the back. The problem was the exhaust had been crumpled up and wasn't nearly the right shape to come out. We had cut some of it last time I was up to get the muffler off the car (a complete writeoff) but the tubing itself had been pushed back to the steel B-pipe off the turbo. The aluminum pipe lost the fight and we ended up cutting the bolts with a torch since I was going to replace the B-pipe anyway. The suspension itself is actually OK minus the tie-rods, which twisted where they connected to the bent side of the frame.

Transmission - In order to get the engine on the stand, the transmission has to come off. The transmission suprised the hell out of me because gearboxes are normally about the size of a football and are heavy, but the MR2s transmission was so heavy I couldn't actually lift it. Nothing screams "high quality steel" like an object which is about twice as heavy as you would think just by looking at it. The trans also took forever to get off the car, despite breaking the bolts loose the thing just didn't want to drop. We ended up rocking it gently back and forth with a prybar until it literally fell off the engine and into my buddies hands (which then continued their downward path to the floor barely abated only to land gently by what little force he could apply). The flywheel had hotspots on it but wasn't horrible, but the clutch was fantastic. One of the dampening clips had come off and shaved itself into nothing all over the inside of the bell housing. The clutch itself was down to the rivet heads and the only reason why it hadn't died was because I don't beat the hell out of the car regularly. Because of the clip being gone (illustration), the pressure plate teeth were all chewed up from the shavings. It was all around bad news, and the reason the trans didn't come apart gracefully was because the clip had done a good job of soldering the two halves together.

Engine Stand - The engine stand was all bitched up and took quite an effort to swing the engine over on the crane to the stand. The engine stand supports the engine by bolting to the block where the transmission bolts up. Obviously these bolts are huge and hard to thread. Instead of being a sled-type engine stand where you lower the engine onto it and it's supported by the lip where the oil pan bolts up, you have to swing the engine sideways while someone else does the bolting.

Accessories - These came off how I expected them to (nicely). Mostly its a game called "find the connection". Accessories are either wired or piped to the engine. Thankfully by 100k miles, most of the tubes and wires have taken on enough of a memory that disconnecting them means they stay about there they need to go when reconnecting them. The only exception are the ground-straps. About this time is where I found weird axial play in the water pump, you shouldn't be able to move the gear up or down even a millimeter. At 100k miles, this was on The List of things to be replaced. About the only thing I wasn't happy with is that the alternator requires an offset wrench to get the center bolt out. You would not be able to do a headgasket with the engine in the car.

Intake and Exhaust Manifold - Possibly the most annoying part, both of these are an unholy mix of bolts and studs. Studs in the middle and bolts on the ends, which is actually the opposite of how I would design it. Exhaust manifold has much more even heating than the intake manifold, which means it breaks loose evenly and requires a gasket change. The intake manifold really caught me off guard. It wouldn't budge, even with rocking and enough WD-40 to make Exxon Valdise look like a small "oops". Finally we tired ourselves out and used the last drops of PB Blaster along the gasket. We had just gone for beers when a crash issued itself from across the garage. Figuring Rat Dogg had knocked something over we were too tired to care. Coming back to the engine, the intake manifold was now laying on the floor. Lesson learned: WD-40 sucks.

Fuel Rail - The cold start injector is in a tough but not impossible location. If we had ratcheting wrenches, it would have gone easier. But we broke them all so we don't. Ratcheting wrenches are not good at breaking loose stubborn bolts, which is why they come with a nonratcheting end.

Valvecover - Pretty standard affair. Turn screws anticlockwise. Lift.

Tips and Tricks for Saturday: Once you have the valvecover off, this is a good place to check for how true the engine is. If I had blown this engine, we would have taken the valvecover off first before spending all this time with the rest of it to check for trueness. My Lincoln Mark VII (you either love them or hate them) was sporting a Ford Mustang 302HO engine which had briefly been supercharged. When the headgasket blew, the valves wouldn't move through the journals which is tip #1 that the block is a writeoff. Tip #2 is to check to make sure the top of the head (the part of the engine holding the valves) is still dead level. Since the head is aluminum on most engines, it will deform with the iron block if the engine itself is warped or cracked. The 3SGTE was dead level across all axis (I checked because I'm semi-OCD when it comes to engines). The 302HO was warped. The way to check is to take a level and span the corners from each corner. If the metal pulls away from the level at any point, the whole thing is ready for the scrap-yard. Depending on the cams, you may not be able to check opposite corners, but with the cams out, the head loses some rigidity and if the cam bolts go into the block, some deformation is OK once the cams are out.

Cams - This is one of the parts I hate. Cams are made of high strength steel, which is extremely heavy, hard, and cracks easily. Dropping them shatters them like ice, but they have to be handled carefully because they are oily and polished. The cams have a disassembly order and a torque spec. When removing them, you put a big wrench on them and give it 1/8th of a turn in the order the book tells you to so that even torque is applied to the cam while its coming out. The n00b mistake is to just start unbolting the cam from the far side and then wondering why it just shattered all over the valvetrain (and more to the point: how to clean it up since the valvetrain is covered in oil). Label the cams with a paint-pen, I prefer "left" and "right" instead of "intake" and "exhaust". Label the cam gears also in sharpie or paint-pen. Before taking the cams off, chalk the cam gears together with a cam gear tool and use an impact wrench to get the nut off. You shouldn't need a puller, but there's three holes in the center of a proper cam gear. One is for aligning the gear to the cam and takes a pin which must be punched out, and the other two are threaded for a puller. A claw puller is better in this situation since it is possible to deflect the cam gear by putting too much tension on the center arms, but so long as you go slow and use lube, it should come off. Now, take stock of the ends of the cams. One end of each cam very obviously goes through the block and accepts the cam gear. One of the cams has a smooth end and the other cam will have a slot which mates to the distributor. God forbid you forget which cam is which, but the distributor will tip you off if the proper cam is on that side of the engine.

Tips for Saturday Part 2: The engine is going to be extremely broken if you mix up intake and exhaust parts at this point. I suggest labeling the bolt-heads in paint-pen, labeling the cam towers in paint-pen, and labeling just about anything else you take out of the engine in paint-pen for which side it's on, what it's position was, and where it goes. Because of how shallow the head is on MR2s, I could not leave the cam tower bolts in the head while working on it. (I probably could have if I had put two blocks on the table to support the head where it meets the valve-cover, but why take the risk?) Get some plastic sandwich bags, label those, and toss the gears, bolts, and cam towers into them. Find a place to put the cams they will not drop. Pretend they are made out of glass and are adult-toys. You wouldn't stick that in your pooper after dropping it on the floor of this garage, would you? Of course not, its filthy and probably broken.

Head Bolts - This is it, almost to the middle of the project! Head bolts come out the same way the cam bolts do: Carefully and in and order. But, since you cannot reuse them, just pay attention to the order. Each bolt has a washer under it and you must be sure you have an equal amount of bolts and washers upon disassembly. Remember, this thing is covered in pools of oil, its extremely easy to lose washers. Count them twice. The head is going to weigh maybe 40lbs at this point, but it must be carefully lifted and never pried to avoid scoring the mating surface. Use the engine hoist if you have to. Throw a towel down and put the head on it. Also put a towel over the head so no-one drops anything into the valvetrain.

Head - You're looking at the final part and I'm thinking to myself "I am totally fucked and never going to get this back together". Remember the comment I made about Castrol GTX being good oil? This is where you find out how good the oil is in an engine. When I bought the MR2, it had 90k miles on it. I put another 40k on it using Castrol GTX instead of regular Joe Mechanics "Almost New" oil. GTX has a crapload of zinc in it, which is also how PB Blaster works. The valve buckets didn't have any scarring, which means the zinc is working.

Protip for Saturday: Burnt oil looks like a brownie. It also holds heat. It also is impossible to get off an engine. Using good oil in your engine will help things immensely. Water injection is OK, but makes it much easier to run an engine rich. Rich engines deposit carbon from unburned fuel all over everything while lean engines deposit carbon from burnt oil all over everything. The key is going to be oil, which means the carbon from a rich engine flows out of the engine before having a chance to deposit on anything. A lean engine will simply melt at some point and consume any quality of oil.

Cleaning it up - Well, I have no idea what the idiot was doing to the engine before I got the car but my best guess was "running it on a budget", which means going to Joe Mechanic for service instead of Toyota or doing it himself and spending the money on quality materials. Excuse the camera phone, but this engine is foul. The solution is to use a wire brush to remove the carbon fouling with a drill. You could do it by hand but it will take all day. Do the same with the gasket material left on the block. Scrub it until it shines. If you want it to really shine, use very fine sandpaper to get a high gloss surface. Clean the tops of the cylinders too, this area gets a light fouling and you can feel it with your finger. Once you're done this, use compressed air to blow out all the little stud holes on the block. Vacuum out the pistons. Put a layer of lithium paste or other high quality grease over the cylinder walls and piston heads. Do not apply grease to the gasket seat, but do wipe it down with a fine, lint free cloth. Remember: Dry start = death.

Cleaning the Valvetrain - If the head is in good condition, the Toyota valvebuckets (shims) will fall right out. In other words, I had to ball up a rag and stuff it against the buckets before putting a piece of wood over it. Putting the valveshims on the wrong valves will screw up the engine quite nicely and at best, it won't run right. At worst, it will smash a valve into a piston and it'll be game over. A note on some engines: The pistons will have a butterfly cut into the top of the piston which the valve can dip into if the timing is off on the engine. An interference engine will smash the pistons into the valves. A non-interference engine will gracefully drop the valve into the butterfly. At 100k miles, they all are interference engines from the carbon. With the valves supported, I could flip the head over and clean the valves and mating surfaces.

Sunday: It feels like it took too much time. I figured the rebuild would be a one-day job. I had no idea the engine was in this poor condition and required this much cleaning. It is far better to do all the deep engine bullshit now and clean it right than to wish it was done later. Treat the engine nicely, and it will last forever and hopefully won't foul nearly this badly again.

Headgasket protip: When the engine is out of the car for a swap, this is an excellent time to do the headgasket. The headgasket I ended up using was a Cometic MLS gasket. The stock Toyota gasket is .071" thick, this gasket was originally .040" thick until I was told that the .040" ones were out of stock. I accepted a .050" substitution. The .010" probably won't make a difference. The goal is to get a gasket which is as thin as possible but still can seal. Since the gasket is much weaker than either the block or the head, the gasket is what is going to blow first. Thinner gaskets made of stronger material give the block slightly more compression but also provide much less area of weak gasket material presented to the forces in the engine.

Protip for Studs: ARP is about the only brand I will buy. Bolts actually stretch and are impossible to torque properly. Studs are torqued down and then bolts are torqued on to them, making the torque wrench extremely accurate. Nuts also are designed to stretch before studs do, meaning that the torque reading and stretching will be absolutely proper. Do not ever re-use headbolts when doing an engine.

Shortblock Prep - Blow everything out again with the compressed air. Wipe off the top of the shortblock with the cloth. Put the studs into the shortblock finger tight and use a hex-key in the provided journal on the ARP studs to snug them in. Now is an excellent time to check for trueness of the studs. Since the studs are equal length, they should all screw into roughly the same depth within 1mm of each other. A little off is OK due to the threads on the block pulling a bit, but none of them should be obviously taller or shorter. Don't be afraid to unscrew, clean, and reseat the stud. Now without touching the gasket surface, place the headgasket on the shortblock. Most of them are done so that they cannot be improperly installed. Make sure all the holes are clear and none of them are blocked by the gasket, which is your tip it's upside down. If you do have to touch the surface, wipe it down with the fine, lint free cloth. The goal is to have no particulate on either the mating surfaces or the gasket. The headgasket is a dry-install, do not use gasket glue on it. Make sure it lays flat. Try to handle it by the excess tabs they give you, most performance gaskets have tabs with rivets that hang out the side of the block. This is your tip to put your fingers there.

Head Install - The ARP stud kit comes with molybdenum lubricant. The head is currently upside-down on the bench, but I have to keep it clean. The solution is a two handed job. Either use the engine hoist to lift the head and suspend it or get a second pair of hands. Using the clean cloth, wipe down the surface mating with the gasket one last time. Also, lay out the washers for the ARP kit and coat them with the moly lube. Use a paintbrush. Have one person hold the head without getting junk on the bottom and suspend it so someone else can drop the lubricated washers onto the head. The washers go around the studs, but they are thick enough there is not enough clearance to do it with the studs actually through the journals. Now gently line up the head and slowly deposit it onto the block. With the studs halfway through, finish lining up the washers and drop the head. Make sure the gasket does not get crimped and none of the washers pick up on the threads. Motor oil is not an acceptable lubricant. Using the same paintbrush, paint molybdenum onto the threads of the studs and the nuts. Paint the bottom of the nuts with it also for good measure. Save a bit, it is good to put on the cams also. The ARP stud kit suggests 60ft/lbs of torque for the assembly, and this requires a torque wrench with a minimum extension to clear the top of the head. The ARP nuts are 12x12s, which means 12cm by 12 points, so a special socket is required.

Tips for Torque: Set the torque wrench to 15ft/lbs, then 30ft/lbs, then 45ft/lbs, then 60ft/lbs. The proper way to hold a torque wrench is to grip the head to keep it on the nut and press against the handle at the furthest point. Pressing from the middle will change the leverage and affect the torque reading, so do not do this. Give each nut 1/8th a turn in the pattern specified by the shop manual until hitting the torque spec. Once all the nuts have been tightened to spec in order 1/8th a turn at a time, advance to the next step of torque. If any of the nuts have take-up (the wrench doesn't click immediately), follow through the pattern and do it again. Oftentimes the take-up from one nut will cause the other nut to relax. Plus the moly is slick stuff and will let the nuts relax a bit. I usually go over a pattern three times to make sure the nuts have no more take-up and no more relaxing to do before considering a torque spec process complete.

Water pump - It was a good time to put both the alternator bracket and alternator back onto the engine. The water pump also had axial play, which means its time to rebuild it. Use the same procedure as cleaning the heads and block to clean the old gasket material off the pump and use gasket glue to glue the pump back together. The gasket glue goes on both metal faces of the pump and the gasket is carefully laid on top of one side before pushing the two halves together. Use liquid o-ring where the pump meets the block (any brand is OK so long as its water-sealing) and screw the whole thing back on tightly so it can dry in place. Both gasket glue and liquid o-ring expand a bit, but the pump must be firmly torqued down to actually create a good seal. Its good to check the waterpump bolts for clearance: The 3SGTE bolts are long enough to penetrate and seal the waterjacket around the cylinders on the block, but not so long as to touch the pistons.

Pep Boys gave me the big middle finger again and sold me the wrong cam seals. Not wanting to do the cam process without the proper seals and certainly not wanting to re-use seals, I found a shop rag and covered the project with it. Next weekend: Cam seals and cams. Possibly more!


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Best tip?
o Checking for trueness of the head 20%
o Checking for trueness of the block 0%
o Checking for trueness of the stud height 0%
o Labeling everything 20%
o Putting everything in a bag with it's assembly friends 20%
o Putting the bolts back into the block so they don't wander 0%
o How to torque things 0%
o Aftermarket parts suggestions 0%
o WIPO 40%

Votes: 5
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Kuro5hin
o MR2
o shortblock
o Diary Section
o Kuro5hin Chopper
o illustrati on
o PB Blaster
o Lincoln Mark VII
o Cams
o cam gears
o cam gear tool
o Castrol GTX
o Water injection
o this engine is foul
o wire brush
o Scrub it until it shines
o Cometic MLS
o Pep Boys
o Also by GhostOfTiber

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Kuro5hin Chopper: Everything That Can Go Wrong Will | 71 comments (53 topical, 18 editorial, 0 hidden)
The 302HO was warped. (3.00 / 2) (#4)
by wiredog on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 12:16:13 PM EST

You warped the block? How? A 302 block is a pretty big and solid hunk of steel.

I used to drive VW Bugs, back when they were cheap transportation and I was poor, and I did all the work on them myself. Including engine rebuilds. In general, if you're pulling the engine out and the heads off, get the valves ground (if necessary) while you're at it. Any other maintenance and repair work that's difficult to do engine-in should be done if you have the engine out for any reason.

Final note: Don't put cheap motorcraft sparkplugs in instead of OEM Bosch ones. Even if it is a choice between eating that day or putting plugs in. Bad Things Will Happen.

The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.

Oh that's a whole other story (none / 0) (#5)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 12:23:06 PM EST

But, it's what basically turned me off of Ford products. My buddy owned a supercharged Mustang Cobra. He somehow managed to roll it on the highway (probably streetracing) and said if I wanted to use the charger while he shopped around for all the stuff to rebuild it, I was free to. "Just take it off yourself since it saves me from having to do a bit of work".

So, for awhile, I had a supercharged Lincoln Mark VII. I had gotten a new AODE transmission when I bought the car (but didn't install it myself). This was a huge mistake as the crazy jew who rebuilt it did a piss poor job and I spun it after I put the charger on it. He kindly rebuilt it (again) and half-assed it (again). The result was I was cruising on the highway one day, not paying attention to the engine, and when the OD belt went on the trans the engine ran away before I realized what was happening. I consider it lucky that the block warped and didn't kill the charger. I started to do the headgasket in the car since I didn't know it was warped until I checked for trueness and realized it was totally boned. That's when I got turned onto the mid-engine cars and decided to get an MR2.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

So all you did was stick the blower on it? (none / 1) (#7)
by wiredog on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 12:31:26 PM EST

Factory tranny, factory suspension, factory steering, and a blower.

Were you actively suicidal at the time?

The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.
[ Parent ]

roffles! (none / 0) (#8)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 12:48:45 PM EST

Factory suspension and steering, yes.  The airbag suspension was changed to allow for manual override of the ride height and bag stiffness (inflation) so it was a nice straight-line driver. The trick to having that much power is always being cognizant of the idea that there is more than enough to screw up turning. Ed (the guy I stole the blower from) didn't get the memo.  ;)

The trans was rebuilt with a shift improvement kit after the first time it died and a 2 inch OD band (twice the width and thickness). I know the guy half-assed it because the OD band shouldn't have ever broken being upgraded like that. Really made me wonder in retrospect if he even did the band or if he just took the pan off to do the shift improvement properly.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

I'm so glad I fly a broom instead. (3.00 / 4) (#13)
by rpresser on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 04:16:01 PM EST

"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty
yeah the honda S2000 is pretty fast (none / 1) (#14)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 04:18:14 PM EST

but it's really heavy.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Where in PA are you anyway? (3.00 / 3) (#15)
by FBI Party Grrl on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 05:27:16 PM EST

Can I come hang out at your garage for a weekend and be an apprentice in exchange for booze?

WOMEN CAN'T WORK ON CARS! LOL! (3.00 / 3) (#16)
by GhostOfTiber on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 05:30:01 PM EST

Yeah sure, the secret MR2 test lab is pretty close to Reading and a stones throw from a drag strip.

Shoot me an e-mail if you're serious.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Noob Oil Question (none / 1) (#19)
by brain in a jar on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 03:22:09 AM EST

So, I've done an oil/filter change on my car a couple of times and I always put in the oil stated in the manual which I think is 10w/40, for the sake of argument we can assume it is anyhow.

Now I noticed that the fancier fully synthetic oils are mostly not 10w40 and don't even come in that grade, they are 5w30 or something like that.

Are these fancier oils better, is synthetic 5w30 etc. somehow better than standard 10w40?

What do the grades even mean, an is there any reason anyone would want to use a grade other than that specified in the manual.

Life is too important, to be taken entirely seriously.

Viscosity (none / 1) (#20)
by wiredog on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 08:06:43 AM EST

A good explanation of "10 W 40", etc, at wikipedia.

Unless you're running a high performance car, or under extreme conditions (Alaska winter, Death Valley summer) the manufacturers recommended oil (usually 10W40) is perfectly fine.

The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.
[ Parent ]

10w40 (none / 0) (#21)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 08:29:21 AM EST

Read Wiredog's post also, but the thing you're probably going to want to pay attention to is the normal temperature of your area.  Pretty graph.  Notice that 10w40 covers you from -4F to 104F.  10w30 covers you from -4F to 86F ambient temperature.  Notice that this is only a guide per viscosity, manufacturers can exceed these ranges if they so choose.

But, the oils nowadays are so good it doesn't really matter so long as you're buying name brand.  You're not going to notice it unless you're driving a high performance car or turbocharged car.  I wouldn't even bother with synthetic on an econobox, I have been playing with the idea of using synthetic in the MR2, but from my experiments with oil additives, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. The GTX seems like such good stuff that with and without additives, it performs about the same.  With Lucas Oil Stabilizer, I have found the oil "sticks" better which is something you want, but it doesn't change the breakdown of the oil one bit.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

It rarely matters for cars (none / 1) (#24)
by Adam Rightmann on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 11:28:38 AM EST

for motorcycles, anecdotally, reduced friction gas saving oil blends can ruin a wet clutch.

I eagerly anticipate voting this one +1 FP.

[ Parent ]

Who still uses a wet-clutch? (none / 0) (#25)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 11:43:54 AM EST

I don't think anything made after 1960ish still uses a wet clutch system which shares oil with the engine. How does it even work with todays ultra-slick oils?  I know for a fact that the zinc in the GTX would almost immediately plate the clutch. It would be very bling-bling, but I don't know how well it would actually function as a clutch after that...

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Most motorcycles use wet clutches (none / 0) (#27)
by Adam Rightmann on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 11:57:20 AM EST

hence my parent post warning against using friction reducing oils in motorcycles.

[ Parent ]
is it different from the engine oil? (none / 0) (#28)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 12:02:39 PM EST

I just have horrible, horrible visions of things lodging themselves in the valvetrain and turning the cams into sand.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

No, it's the same oil. I tend to use Quaker State (none / 0) (#35)
by Adam Rightmann on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 01:13:10 PM EST

10w40, though a lot of older bike aficianadoes swear by Rotella.

[ Parent ]
It's not the same oil (none / 0) (#46)
by dissonant on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 10:53:02 PM EST

Because of said wet clutch, motorcycle specific oils require a very different additive package and a few of the additives in many oils meant for gas burning car engines can cause the clutch to slip in a bike. Molybdenum additives or "energy saving" labels on the oil bottle means it's bad medicine for your motorcycle.

Personally, I run Motul 5100 in my bikes.  No molybdenum, and it has a ton of diesters.

[ Parent ]

That is exactly what I've been saying (none / 1) (#52)
by Adam Rightmann on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 11:16:08 AM EST

you can use boring old 10w40 car oil in your bike as long as it doesn't have the gas saving/friction reducing aditives.

[ Parent ]
i saw the old walrus guy (3.00 / 2) (#22)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 09:22:54 AM EST

from orange county chopper once in montgomery ny on route 17k

that is all i can think of to add to this discussion

as this entire topic is about as interesting to me as a fucking food recipe

whoops! k5 favorite!

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

That show sometimes pisses me off (none / 0) (#23)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 11:27:19 AM EST

They fabricate EVERYTHING.


NO-ONE.  You buy a fuel tank, you buy a frame, you buy an engine.  Then you fabricate fiberglass or paint it.  For the amount of work these guys put into a bike doing it The Hard Way, it's no wonder to me that they're looking to kill each other constantly.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

two things (none / 0) (#26)
by circletimessquare on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 11:55:01 AM EST

#1. they don't actually do anything. they order everything and put it together. sure, they do some work now, but that's because they are big teevee stars now. i know a guy who knows the family, and he says they knew jack shit about motorcycles when they started. the old man ran an auto parts store, that's it. it's all his roids-fueled archetypical appearance and a desire to make bikes. then he met a tv producer, and the rest is history. that jesse james guy on the west coast is more the real deal

#2. the fights are for just for show. duh. it's teevee my friend, entertainment. if there was no camera, you would see domestic bliss

The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

[ Parent ]

dear god, I didn't realize it was that fake (none / 1) (#30)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 12:11:38 PM EST

although I'm now thoroughly disappointed. It does explain why it seems so hard for Junior to accomplish basic tasks like CUTTING A RAIL AT A 90 DEGREE.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

It's also no wonder (none / 0) (#53)
by fluxrad on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 11:33:04 AM EST

their cars sell for a small fortune.

You've also got to keep in mind, Paul Teutel Sr. started Orange Co. Choppers after he already had a sound metalworks business going (that's there the brother you never see works). Methinks Paul Sr. is doing alright for himself.

"It is seldom liberty of any kind that is lost all at once."
-David Hume
[ Parent ]
oh there is subtle incest going on (none / 0) (#54)
by GhostOfTiber on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 11:36:29 AM EST

I get it now, they have one shop and two doors and share all the equipment.  Shady, but brilliant!

How did you figure this out?

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Every once in a while (none / 1) (#55)
by fluxrad on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 11:44:53 AM EST

You'll see them talk about someone running up to the metalworks for something or another. There was a lot more of it mentioned in the first couple of seasons when the two shops were right next to each other. Also, I think I actually caught a glimpse of the older brother once or twice on camera - but he's like a ghost...you never really know if you saw what you thought you saw.

I'm just waiting for Season 10, where I think Pauly Sr. gets back on the heroin and starts shooting people in the parking lot with a nail gun.

Oh, and by "cars", I meant "motorcycles."

"It is seldom liberty of any kind that is lost all at once."
-David Hume
[ Parent ]
WIPO: WIPO (none / 0) (#31)
by rpresser on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 12:51:19 PM EST

"In terms of both hyperbolic overreaching and eventual wrongness, the Permanent [Republican] Majority has set a new, and truly difficult to beat, standard." --rusty
+1FP Gearhead shit (3.00 / 4) (#34)
by Sgt York on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 01:09:28 PM EST

I love gearhead shit.

I had a buddy in high school that was a mechanical savant; he used to take apart engines and put them back together for kicks. He went to garages around town and asked if he could just help out, no pay, just to learn more. Everything I know about car repair I learned from him (which, TBH, is not a hell of a lot. I've forgotten most of it anyway).

He barely graduated high school, but he makes at least twice my salary now as a luxury car mechanic at a dealership back home.

Oddly, he was also my childhood fishing buddy. Every weekend we'd fix cars, catch fish, and smoke pot. Wonderful combination, just don't get any of the nouns/verb pairs mixed up.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.

yes but could he HOT ROD? (none / 0) (#38)
by GhostOfTiber on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 04:27:59 PM EST

In a strange moment of serendipity, that's exactly what the one guy does to a T.  He could have honestly been a surgeon but he didn't have the patience to go to medical school.

The one thing I like about engines is that it's like doing a giant puzzle.  The thing I hate is when you break the puzzle pieces or when it's a major timesink.  This weekend was obviously a major timesink.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Hot rod, you say? (3.00 / 3) (#39)
by Sgt York on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 04:58:50 PM EST

His car had a pair of 4-barrels on it, the cylinders had been bored out, and he had done some freaky shit to the transmission I could never understand. The thing rumbled, you could hear it a block away.

It was a Ford station wagon.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

Why not smoke fish? (3.00 / 3) (#48)
by tetsuwan on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 04:06:22 AM EST

Only meat I ever eat.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance
[ Parent ]

The difficulty. (none / 0) (#51)
by Sgt York on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 09:13:12 AM EST

It's difficult, although possible, to roll, but lighting it is damn near impossible and you normally just wind up singing your eyebrows something fierce trying to get it to fire up.

There is a reason for everything. Sometimes, that reason just sucks.
[ Parent ]

Um (none / 1) (#42)
by trhurler on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 08:18:18 PM EST

To get burnt oil (and everything else,) off any non-aluminum part: hot tank. Obvious, yes, but worth mentioning.

I honestly don't know what the best way to do the equivalent is with aluminum, but I know there are shops that do it.

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

WIRE BRUSH (none / 0) (#50)
by GhostOfTiber on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 08:23:58 AM EST


Actually one of the guys does have a turkey fryer...


[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

You, sir, (none / 0) (#58)
by trhurler on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 07:48:00 PM EST

Must learn about places called engine shops. You might not have them do everything for you, but they can do some things better than you ever will unless you buy an engine shop. :)

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 09:23:03 AM EST

We have one more we're building and the guy is going all out.  IE: Water + Alcohol injection, bigger turbo, etc.  He's shooting for 450HP or so, "Enough to outrun a Ferrari".  The torque curve will be different but it should be a neat project.

But yeah, we COULD use an engine shop, hmmm.  See, we have no need for decking or boring, etc so it's overkill for most applications to contract to those guys since the value really only comes in if you're going absolutely nuts with an engine.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Um (none / 1) (#64)
by trhurler on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 07:39:07 PM EST

I don't think the solution they use in a hot tank will be contained by a turkey fryer.

Please explain: you want to build a 450hp sub two liter engine, and you don't think you need the block checked over by people who can do it more accurately than you can by just laying a straight edge across it, you think factory tolerances for the parts will be good enough, and you think it isn't worth having everything cleaned up properly?

I get the feeling you like the idea of throwing pistons through the rear deck:)

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
IT WILL WORK (none / 0) (#65)
by GhostOfTiber on Fri Aug 10, 2007 at 06:47:26 AM EST

It's actually easier than you think.  So long as the block is in good condition (IE: not blown a headgasket), there's no reason to assume it's anything but in good condition.  Then the problem simply becomes figuring out how to get enough air/fuel in there to make that HP, which is just all wideband O2 sensor tuning...

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Right (none / 0) (#69)
by trhurler on Sat Aug 11, 2007 at 01:21:48 PM EST

There's a reason why people looking to get that kind of specific output spend extra money double checking everything in sight.

'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

[ Parent ]
This is most (none / 1) (#43)
by mybostinks on Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 09:57:47 PM EST

exquisite. I am going to have a double scotch, single malt and read it again and then one more time to the wifelet.


Including the parts about (3.00 / 2) (#47)
by Pirengle on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 12:54:16 AM EST

how Tiber's massive trouser snake will conquer the universe? Inquiring minds demand to know.

A sure-fire way to make friends and influence people: transform the letters "l" and "i" into "-1"s whenever posting. Instant wit!
[ Parent ]
Is this so she can (none / 1) (#49)
by GhostOfTiber on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 08:22:43 AM EST

appreciate exactly what a bitch cars are?

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Yes, but she already knows that (none / 0) (#59)
by mybostinks on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 10:36:05 PM EST

this will be a great warm up for her.

[ Parent ]
T-tops (none / 0) (#56)
by Eccles on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 05:15:41 PM EST

Whatever happened to T-tops, anyway?

T-Tops? (none / 0) (#57)
by AzTex on Wed Aug 08, 2007 at 06:52:02 PM EST

I got 'em on my 99 Trans Am. They are great!

solipsism: I'm always here. But you sometimes go away.
** AzTex **

[ Parent ]
They were banned by the SAE (none / 0) (#60)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 09:20:32 AM EST

They were deemed "unsafe" so t-tops along with flip-up headlights are now disallowed on production vehicles.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

bullshit (none / 0) (#62)
by lawngnomehitman on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 12:50:56 PM EST

I dont believe that for a second

[ Parent ]
You must drive an NSX (none / 0) (#63)
by GhostOfTiber on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 01:21:01 PM EST


[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Reading the manual helps (none / 1) (#66)
by brettd on Fri Aug 10, 2007 at 11:37:30 AM EST

If you don't plan on taking the piece off again for another 100k miles, put some antiseize on it and tighten the living hell out of it. Omitting the antiseize is bad, you will regret it later when you break all the bolt heads off.

No, you'll regret it when you overtighten all the bolts because the torque specs are for a light coat of motor oil and you just torqued them on anti-sieze goop.

In fact, the first google hit for "head bolts dry torque" is a forum posting about how the Toyota factory manuals specify light motor oil coating for the bolts. You wipe a little oil on them to keep them from rusting up, and to keep the bolt turning smoothly so you don't get a false torque from the threads catching.  If you overlubricate and hence over-torque, you'll overstress the head bolts (which can cause them to stretch too much, weakening them- think like taffy, how it stretches more easily the longer you pull) and thus you'll have head-gasket failure.

Oh, and head bolts have a very specific tightening sequence.  Again, read the manual.

Cover stuff with plastic trash bags.  Not shop rags.  Shop rags are dirt magnets.

Don't tear down an engine unless you ABSOLUTELY MUST. The failure rate for engines that have been opened up is astronomically higher than engines that haven't been touched since the factory put them together.  This is because most people (mechanics included) don't have clean enough work spaces, properly calibrated torque wrenches, or the proper training+experience to keep from doing things just wrong enough to turn an engine that was going to last 300,000 miles into one that's going to last 60,000 miles.

Next time, just unhook a vacuum line, raise the revs to 2k, and spray a crapload of Seafoam in, shut the engine off, remove the plugs, and fill the cylinders with seafoam.  Come back in the morning and turn it over with no plugs, then install plugs, start it up, spray more seafoam, then run it until it stops fogging your entire block, then immediately change the oil and put in a good synthetic like Mobil 1 or Royal Purple (which is hard to find, but pretty much the same cost or cheaper than, Mobil 1.)  Then run a bottle of techron on a full tank of gas.

No fuss, no muss, no more carbon.  Oh, and the bit about interference vs. non-interference with piston valve cutouts is bullshit.  Many modern engines have valve cutouts in the head of the piston and are still interference.  Carbon buildup does not "make" an engine go from non-interference to interference.  Rather, engines are either interference, static non-interference (ie, turning it over by hand or maybe with the starter will not crunch anything but you will bend shit if the engine is running), or completely non-interference.

You'll regret being an asshole (none / 0) (#67)
by GhostOfTiber on Fri Aug 10, 2007 at 12:12:02 PM EST



The Toyota factory manual also specifies "36ft/lbs + 90 degrees".  Waaaa waaaa 90 degrees is a legitimate torque, right?

RE: Interference - You think carbon is soft?  What are you going to do starting the engine with the plugs out aside of spraying gasoline all over everything?  You try it first.

Set your torque wrench to failure.

[Nimey's] wife's ass is my cocksheath. - undermyne
[ Parent ]

Clearly an MR2 expert (none / 0) (#68)
by Trevasel on Fri Aug 10, 2007 at 06:01:45 PM EST

That is all.
-- That which does not kill you only makes you stranger - Trevor Goodchild
[ Parent ]
actually (none / 1) (#70)
by Xtacy on Sun Aug 12, 2007 at 01:39:23 PM EST

although I don't agree with "tightening the shit out of bolts", nowhere in the article can I see the poster saying tighten the shit out of head bolts and/or studs.

At the end, the poster talks about tightening in sequence, which is proper.

As for teardown engines not lasting as long, i beg to differ.  I've rebuilt many engines and have never had a failure.  Some of these engines have already passed 200,000kms since rebuild.

Perhaps people that do things properly have better success?

[ Parent ]

I feel you man, (none / 1) (#71)
by Brogdel on Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 04:36:50 PM EST

last year I put a head gasket on a pontiac grand am, quad 4 engine. I will never, ever, ever do this again. If, no no, when that bastard goes again I will set fire to it and sing campfire songs. I didn't have to take the engine completely out, but still it would have been easier to cut the goddamn car in half to do the job.

RUIN THAT (O-)RING (none / 0) (#72)
by The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy on Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 12:45:56 PM EST


I'm a pompous windbag, I take myself far too seriously, and I single-handedly messed up K5 by causing the fiction section to be created. --localroger

Kuro5hin Chopper: Everything That Can Go Wrong Will | 71 comments (53 topical, 18 editorial, 0 hidden)
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